this is jocko podcast number 243 with echo charles and me jocko willink good evening echo good evening it’s a different world when you get home i mean at some point while you’re over there you accept death you you give away normal life you give away the normal world it’s probably just a coping mechanism of some kind to just accept your fate to accept your fate that the world is war that the world is dirt and blood and pain and death and you have to accept that at least i did then i’d be lying to you if i said that i didn’t want that acceptance that i didn’t want that attitude because the world the normal world the everyday world is a complicated place there’s all kinds of things going on family and friends and mortgage payments and bills to pay and a future to worry about and retirement and savings and the kids then the list goes on but in war that’s all gone there really isn’t even a future nothing else matters nothing but the mission and the men that was my concern did i think about my family sometimes i had other things to think about and other things to worry about bullets and bombs and blood and shit and life and death and you go through it you get through it some of you do some of you don’t and for those that do make it through one day just as quickly as it started it’s over get on a plane and you fly home back to the world and on that flight home i only think about one thing that i didn’t bring home all my men and then the door of the plane opens and we’re home and then 24 hours of flight time you go from ramadi iraq to san diego california at least physically you do mentally it’s gonna take a little bit more time to come around but you soon realize that you are alive and you have a house and a wife and kids and mortgage and a future you are alive and you are thankful and you want to live a life that honors your friends that didn’t come home and then it’s let’s go let’s get it on let’s surf and fight and drink and eat and play guitar and run and roll and surf some more let’s go let’s do this we’re lucky to even be here full-on for me much of that time the surfing and the rolling and the eating and the drinking and the jamming on the get box was spent with seth stone the delta platoon commander he bought a house a mile away from mine he was like an uncle to my kids part of the family and you know he’s uh a much nicer guy than me much friendlier than me always made friends and before we left on deployment he had somehow linked up with a guy by the name eugene cooper legendary surfboard shaper and seth got gene to make us some boards some epic boards and when we got home we got those boards and we rode them and through gene seth also linked up with a a guy named mike black that made a surf movie if if it can even be called that’s kind of a crazy surf movie called invasion from planet c the sci-fi surf movie it was it was unique it was kind of wild and funny and insane and just kind of completely crazy and maybe that’s why we liked it because it had some good surfing and it made us laugh i also had some good music in it some real good music one song in that movie was called mad man it was by a band called the white buffalo and we heard the lyrics to the song and they made they made sense to us there’s one section of lyrics that says like an animal out of his den you better hide your money you better hide your children you can’t keep your fear at bay because the madman’s roaming these streets today the madman’s coming we got that we understood what that was all about and the white buffalo songs were in some other surf movies along the way one called shelter a song called wrong knew some other guys in there joel tudor was in that movie so seth figured out where the rest of this music came from and we started listening to this white buffalo became like a little soundtrack because the music and the lyrics and the sound and the attitude was somehow somehow it was about us about what we had seen about what we had been through about what we were going through i don’t really i don’t really remember exactly when we went and saw the white buffalo for the first time i know that we saw him one time at ucsd in some kind of cafe and there was probably about 12 people there so i’m at the kaz bond san diego the belly up a few times eventually we saw him at bigger places like the house of blues and the observatory and we knew that somehow this guy he got us and i remember the first time we saw him at the casbah it’s the last time we saw him when there was a pretty small crowd but it was a small enough crowd that everyone that was there knew who he was there was no people wandering in they knew they knew who the white buffalo was and they were there to see him and people were drinking and people were carrying on and they were talking and laughing and then the pa music faded then the lights went dark and then he walked out on stage alone and he played he started strumming that guitar mother i try to do right by you to do what you asked me to i did wrong and i knew mother it was all i could do find a way back home make everything new i wish true father will i gave my soul to you i came and blindfolded for you it was all that i knew open your arms and i’ll fly out of hell up to you i wish it was true boy come on out from the cold lost outside there don’t you know it’s not what you say it’s what you do just keep wishing your wishes are true your dreams are reality there’s no pain there’s no misery you just polish the blood in the bruise but i wish it was true country i was a soldier for you i did what just me too it was wrong and you knew throw me away when you’re through home of the brave and free the red white and blue wish it was true then when he got done playing the place was silent for a second seth and i were standing there like everybody else then we looked at each other we smiled the place went crazy but we did too was a good night it’s good memory and memories are all i have left of seth now on those songs and those are some powerful songs and it’s an honor today to have the man behind those memories and behind those songs the man himself a man named jake smith otherwise known as the white buffalo jake thanks for coming down man thank you for having me no pressure on that set right there that was intense yeah man um tell me about it yeah it’s lots of stuff wrapped up in in the songs that you write it’s um it’s kind of crazy when i think about all the time that i spent sitting there listening playing them listening to them going to your shows uh you know just being some random dude we almost got into a fight at the belly up one time some guy was talking like just just mad dog and seth and seth was like six two you know and you know i mean i know i look like a serial killer for sure seth not quite as much because he’s too nice but still he’s a strapping dude with a shaved head and cauliflower ears right that’s generally not a go situation for scraps no that’s a sign yeah so at belly up we’re standing there and this dude’s kind of nudging into seth and seth’s kind of looking at him and i’m standing behind the guy which in the jujitsu world means i i can kill you you have no you have zero chance but it didn’t happen but lots of memories man it’s awesome it’s awesome to have you come down here i appreciate it yeah my pleasure uh let’s let’s talk a little bit about you man enough about me i’ve been talking about myself here for a long time let’s hear about you all right um so you were born where up in oregon i was born in eugene oregon and what was that all about were your parents working up there uh my dad was still going to school he’s a college professor and he was um i think he was still working on his masters at that point and we moved down to uh he might have been working on his phd and then we moved down to southern california huntington beach uh when i was maybe one uh-huh and he continued that uh at pepperdine and did some student teaching and then we were there for maybe since i was one until 20 dang malibu yeah we didn’t live there though oh but he uh we lived in huntington beach which is always it’s yeah well i think he’s cool too but i mean let’s face it if you lived in malibu and you surf malibu all the time you probably wouldn’t be here right now i probably wouldn’t you you’d be a whole perspective so so you you you grew up in huntington beach then i did and what was what was the situation your your dad’s a college professor at pepperdine uh no my dad was a college professor at cal state dominguez hills oh i see so he did he was student teaching or he finished his his phd there and then moved on to cal state dominguez hills for carson what does he teach he taught uh public administration his uh what even is that right now it’s tough to explain right uh i think it’s like the study of city budgets i think a lot of policemen take it uh city planners it’s like uh in the political science world no what do you think makes a man say to themselves they’re looking at the courses and they’re like there you go public administration let’s call it my name yeah i don’t know and it it you know i mean he’s interested by some odd things like that but i it was surprising uh not surprising but yeah it is it’s a one of the lesser known um you know uh pedagogies or you know it’s not it’s not a normal when you say what that is most people say when i say that yeah exactly what i said you know what about your mom what was she up she was a nurse she was a labor and delivery nurse oh dang uh brother and a sister you have a brother and a sister correct older younger i’m the youngest you’re the baby i’m the baby was that whole thing work out you know that whole that whole thing you know what i’m talking about yeah where you’re the so now you get coddled and everything and i mean you’re the spoiled kid it was it was part of it definitely how far from the beach did you live in huntington beach um i live we used to take the bus to go surf okay when i was young um two miles oh that’s not that’s not bad you could teach cruiser that all day long we could but we busted or got dropped off the bus was easier than a beach cruiser i don’t know why we bust it you know it’s a weird uh yeah i think it was all bmx so it just wasn’t an option to have the rack and whatnot yeah they haven’t did they have them you had to carry it under your arm back then uh i don’t even know if they had the racks back then yeah now you get all kinds of racks you’re good to go bmx or not that’s true i think they they can uh how much were your money um i served quite a bit but i just it wasn’t something that um i picked up super easily it was the age of the small thin board oh yeah and i’ve always been a big dude and and to ride you know slater’s board right i’m on a 6-3 and i’m 6-2 you know and it’s like some way for thin thing that i can’t you know i’m sitting out in the lineup and i’m up to my tits in the water and uh it’s not gonna float me it took me a while to just go like i mean i should probably get a bigger board yeah something that actually can i can paddle in the waves yeah that’s not that’s a big mental transition today man my buddy josh hall just made me a board that’s eleven it is the it’s i it’s the thickest board i think a human could make because my son was telling him what i wanted and and they were doing this like as a secret surprise for me right yeah what’s that cool secret surprise behind my back so my son was telling him hey you know and josh had some ideas and my son’s like no the biggest thickest board you could possibly make in josh hall delivered big time you got to try that board i got some thick boards too but i got a couple one of mine looks like a paddle board but it’s not a board it’s a it’s a it’s a surfboard for a bit for a large man right we’ll say so you uh and i know you played you were freaking hardcore baseball player right i was that was kind of my dream as a child ended up playing college baseball division one baseball had a scholarship to play baseball what position did you play uh until i was a senior in high school i played shortstop um so i was on the more athletic side of especially for a big man they thought i was gonna be like uh in the next like cal ripken like you know and he he was you know big that’s a big statement you just made they thought i was gonna be the next calvary no but that was they were grooming me for that idea but then we actually had this young kid who came in as a shortstop uh who was a sophomore or something it was just a little phenom and then i moved over to well third base i didn’t play well i played baseball my dad wanted my dad like really like sports a lot that’s why my name is jocko by the way um and i didn’t like sports as much as him at all yeah i like machine guns right so but you know i would get put into sports randomly oh you know go play little league and i was on the braves yeah echo gets into this kind of thing but i just wasn’t you know wasn’t really wasn’t really my thing so years later i went and talked to a professional baseball team and when i was growing up i remembered the baseball players it seemed like most of the baseball players that were pros they were like these little guys right like little dominican guys little puerto rican guys that were fast and everything and when i went and met with this team which was a few years ago they were freaking monsters they were all huge yeah oh they’re massive now i mean it’s a whole different is that a new thing yeah i mean if you look even if you look at you know footage from you know the 80s even early 90s they were way smaller how much practice did you play i mean are you one of the because sports was different like nowadays you if you’re a kid and you’re gonna play sports your parents are like cool you’re gonna do that sport you’re gonna play at 365 days a year you’re gonna you’re gonna get coaching you’re gonna get some private whatever uh uh hitting batting coach that’s coming work with you when you’re the kid’s like oh we need a batting coach you’re like yeah sure no problem okay here’s my son he’s four right was it like that for you uh not so much i mean i did do extra stuff and i did uh you know did extra work with hitting coaches and fielding coaches and uh it was definitely a big part i mean it was a i wanted to be a major league baseball player when i was a kid and my dad i come from kind of a wrestling family my dad was a wrestler dude my brother was alert right and uh but there he’s not a ball sport guy at all and so he was kind of always blown away by the idea like how did this where did this child come from you know that you know he used to say that he could he’d throw a ball at me like when we were young my brother’s like a year and a half older than me he could just throw a ball at me when i was like two and i would just like reach up and snatch it freaking reflexes probably hit off my you know hit off my brother’s chest and land on the floor but uh but they had you know they were they were hard-nosed guys you know my dad’s a was a badass you know what how old were you started playing baseball actually my dad wouldn’t let us play he thought it was too political when i was uh young just with all the bullshit wait a second i have no idea what you’re talking about how is baseball political at 19 what is this 1985 or something yes yeah probably i was born in 74 so yeah you know um it was just a lot of uh tension kids oh you mean political like the the the dad with the kids the dad and the emotions of that you thought like soccer was a better game a better family sport that kind of thing so we played soccer and then he finally he budged earlier because my brother was older and we always wanted to play baseball and then he i mean it was like minor b’s it was like i was still quite young when i started playing how good was your brother at baseball yeah he was fast bro talk about the freaking hammer of destruction ouch i guess the ball was hitting him in the face when the old man threw into him he was a wrestler i mean it was a different oh your brother wrestled my brother wrestled too yeah okay yeah he did he wrestled uh my dad wrestled in college with oregon state under dale thomas and then coached some at oregon as well as oregon state and my brother uh he he just wrestled in high school but he was good in high school yeah wrestling in california high school is no joke yeah it was the it’s the largest wrestling tournament in the world i think he was cif champ i want to say my brother he was good props to your brother so at what point what was your what was you know you’re dealing with music it was late i mean it hit me super late i was probably i said i tell the story and i don’t even know the actual how what were you listening to when you were a little kid we were country music fans my parents were crazy about country and it was all country all the time in the in the station wagon and we would go see country music concerts um it was kind of the transition time of country when it was getting not over the top cheesy but you know it was like alan jackson was coming in and and it was getting a little more sticky than it was kind of these heartfelt songs of my youth but um yeah it was all it was all country music it was odd for you know a kid to be um until i really got to high school was uh exclusively a country music listener and and kind of proud of that fact um but then i got really into punk when i was in high school and where’d that come from i’m not entirely sure there wasn’t really a kid named there was a whatever no that was my check this out one of my buddies who used to take me to school in the morning he was more of a and uh i don’t know exactly how i got and so he would listen to you know listen to metallica and danzig and anthrax and uh and then i started listening to punk but i was it was more of the southern california stuff you know i started kind of getting into hardcore stuff and then that’s when i got a guitar kind of uh but i was more like bad religion circle jerks descendants stuff that was a little more melodic maybe you know um and then uh i got a guitar we’d go drink beers at my buddy’s house um and his dad would play john prine songs and some of the quirkier kind of dylan songs and it was 18 19 maybe and uh let’s go get a guitar when you talk about music i don’t know if you think this i think this when i was younger like within when i met someone shook their hands hey nice to meet you within the first let’s say seven to nine minutes of talking to someone i would say what kind of music do you like because it would be like a straight up indicator it would tell you a lot about them and nowadays like sometimes i meet who i got i got four kids and they’re all whatever 20 19 17 and 10 and for a while i would say you know what kind of music do you like to these kids and they’re just it’s so there’s so much music right there’s so much music out there that it’s you know you know you used to get the weird avoidance answer to that question it’s like oh i listen to everything everything yeah you listen to everything right i used to say okay so you to me that used to mean to me you have no personality if you don’t say bro i like i like nordic death metal or whatever then i know we i know you i know who you are or you know i like the dead okay i know who you are or whatever you know i like uh whatever hair metal leaf babin so so it used to identify kind of like who you are right i mean it was even part of the fashion like you you couldn’t really like everything if you were into one thing that’s what you look like you had the big hair or if you were in a punk you you know maybe look like a skinhead if you were in you know you wore the the pants if you were in the country you had the pants with the stitching you know or it’s like yeah dude not it was almost i identify her yeah and then people nowadays there’s just so much music and it’s so accessible so when i was a kid in order to get music that we wanted to hear we had to go to new york maybe we had to go to a good record store which they just weren’t all over the place there’s one in waterbury good brass city get some um but you know we’d go there and and but that was part of the inhibitor the other part was money like it cost 21 for an album and you know we just didn’t so i you know i i love music and i had probably i don’t know 30 albums that i just listened to over and over and over again you borrow one from someone and of course we got the little we got tape cassettes too you get the dub tape cassette but even that was kind of hard to get because they would all sound like crap not that we really cared that much i mean let’s face it nowadays everybody kind of listens to everything there’s a lot out there not to mention the cro all the crossover see i’m saying you got country and you got what the naz kid who’s you know old town road you know they got we got a lot of crossovers is what i’m saying so you could you’re just opening it up even wider even more oh yeah now you really are listening to everything you see i’m saying things are getting crazy crazy too so it’s kind of upsetting though really like when they start rapping in in country they do throw you for a loop sometimes just like this is not i don’t know you’re saying that’s upsetting echo doesn’t seem upset by that he doesn’t i’m just observing the landscape of music at the time at the moment let me tell you look echo’s a decent guy thank you when we go places he drives i ride which means he gets control of the music situation yes which is a problem for you i can see how that could be yes so uh so did you get so you said you played d1 college so you get into college do you get into college where did you go to college i went two years at a junior college in huntington beach golden west college and then i did two years at st mary’s college which was in the east bay in moraga same league as at the time at least was uh like pepperdine santa clara loyola uh san diego wait uc san diego okay um that league and then did you so is that when you were talking that you got a guitar was that still in high school you got to go it was prior to that so probably when i was 19 probably about when i don’t know if it was the summer between my senior year in high school oh and college your dad held you back you were old right wrestling like families their kids are going to school they’re like starting they’re they’re graduating when they’re 23 years old but he was a college professor so i think education was it was equally if not more important to him than than you know dominance in sports or wrestling so dude wrestling’s crazy man right i mean i know i mean my kids wrestle and it’s like it’s mayhem it’s mayhem you want to talk about political your dad’s talking about soccer come to a freaking wrestling tournament it’s insane man it’s insane go to the state championships in bakersfield california it’s insane it’s awesome okay so you’re so you’re still in high school and you’re 27 years old no so you’re still in high school and that’s when you go you hear you hear a little bit of uh acoustic music that you go oh yeah just that my friends my friend’s dad would play we’d just drink beers and he would hang out and he would play just songs and i was like oh that looks easy oh wait oh so he was playing guitar he was playing guitar and singing himself he wasn’t playing records he wasn’t spinning record he was actually singing and playing them sambulo damn and uh yeah he wrote down a few chords for me and then i was on my way i kinda didn’t i didn’t even really learn songs i started writing songs almost immediately would not and not with you with the agenda to be like i’m going to be a musician a songwriter i was still a baseball player that was still the dream you know and uh i don’t know i just kept writing were you feeling any any of the burn the baseball burnout at that point yeah totally i had it i had it no and i that you had fourth grade now the reality of it is in high school i was still super serious about it once i hit junior college i was less serious about it and didn’t even wasn’t even that great i don’t think and that actually uh what what happened to cal ripken over here bro you know you started i don’t know you started smoking weed deserving during the summer you know i mean at that level at division one everyone goes to alaska or somewhere some far off place playing summer ball all the time and i never did that ever i would just surf and hang out at 20th street with my buddies and then you know they come and i come back from summer and they’re like you went to shape you know like but uh yeah it wasn’t i had kind of lost the love for it a little bit but then we’re gonna pay for my college education and they saw me at some all-star game then and i went off you know i hit like a home run and two doubles or something like that and saw that i was it could move move well for a big person and uh i got a scholarship out of that and so i was like well okay a couple more years it’s not going to hurt anybody you know it’s actually really fun so so then you you so when you got your guitar you’re still in high school and you’re immediately writing songs like you had that you had that thought that i i kind of for my my interpretation of that thought is it’s a pain to try and learn what someone else is doing but if i just make something up then it’s a little easier was there any of that there it may have been that’s like the story of my whole existence it’s kind of just the easiest path to something and i’d be like oh well you didn’t even really try that hard to be doing that you know and i’m assuming you never took any lessons or anything no i never did i never took any lessons i mean the first song i wrote i wrote a song when i knew and i knew uh like e minor and and g and then wrote a song like about suicide or something like something super but like a narrative about like some guy jumping off a building or something and i was like why is it and i wasn’t even that disturbed as a child you know i was like pretty i was pretty happy-go-lucky but um yeah this and he immediately started writing what was the name of the first song it’s called the jumper damn has it ever been released no and i can’t i was trying to remember the the lyrics and it’s i mean they’re not they weren’t as nearly as crafted as they are today you know well you got me beat because i think the first song that my band we had a bunch of bands when i was a kid and uh the the name that we’ve kind that’s kind of has survived is bronson’s children named after charles bronson and even though we never made an album and even though we did record uh about 15 songs in the studio but more important than that we made cool t-shirts so we’ve had these cool t-shirts that we have them on this we have them on the jocko store they’re they’re just a picture of charles bronson’s face and then underneath in little kids like uh toddler writing it says bronson’s children you know with like a backwards r type thing but i think the first song that i can remember was there was this weird televangelist dude that was on late night tv his name was dr gene scott and i remember yes yes that’s him yeah that’s him the public access yeah public access and he was kind of he was kind of like one of these people he sort of berated the audience kind of right right i think he was like the gateway between like donahue or maury povich or whatever or whatever that i don’t even know but anyways we would watch you kind of berate his you know you need to donate now it was one of those things and there’s then there’s the whatever and so the first uh song in bronson’s children was a song called dr scott get off the air yes and there was a great little chorus where where it was get off the air and then someone was in the back going get him off the air and get off the air there it was so yeah so you were beating me man you were already going deep early i went like it went dark super early yeah and then so so at some point during college so did you play your whole four years of baseball yeah graduated in four years and played all four years and then what would you what did you major in or whatever history history was my major were you thinking you were did that was that any was that just an easiest thing to take earlier i had an inspiring teacher in junior college that made history interesting and so decided to go that path i don’t really retain much of it um but i some of the time they seep into songs and whatnot there’ll be kind of period piece songs that i’ll write but yeah not with the idea that i was going to be a teacher i mean what do you really do with it right i mean i’m i’m asking you that yeah no i was still like oh i don’t know what i’m going to do you know now i got this guitar thing oh maybe maybe i’ll do that now you know how long did it take you to start thinking oh man i can maybe i could maybe make something work it took me a long time to even consider myself a musician i probably had i don’t know 30 songs under my belt and would play it you know i would play at the pub on campus how much practice did you do not like what you got the guitar did you okay that’s awesome no i mean it’s still well no it’s still it’s still a primitive i still have a very primitive style of playing and there’s nothing i don’t really dazzle anybody with uh with my virtuosity you know it’s just like it’s the vehicle for the songs and for the voice and and uh you know i know i do have my own style kind of of playing because it’s fairly percussive but it’s primitive mm-hmm you know i mean i probably break strings more than anyone maybe ever an acoustic guitar for sure you pick up the guitar and you you start writing songs you start playing songs but you didn’t you’re not one of these people that like i’ve known i had friends growing up where they got obsessed and it was they were just like learning scales and whatever the hell else you learned when you’re trying to get good guitar which i yeah i never did i never never took lessons or never yeah and i i don’t it still it took me a while to go like oh this is maybe what i want to do even and i just kept on writing songs and i started having kind of a catalogue of songs so so when you graduate from college do are you what did you do did you get a job i waited tables i went back i lived with my parents for a while uh to save up some money waited tables and then moved to san francisco and waited tables and then with kind of the intention that i was going to go and start hitting the clubs and trying to make some kind of a a presence of my songwriting or my performance or whatever it was going to be you know and uh what did san francisco seem like the move for some reason i i don’t know if because it was close in proximity to where i went to college i’m not sure why we chose that i think my brother had a job there um that was lined up and so we went there and lived together and my brother lived together and uh but it was shitty it was not a good environment it was when dj started taking over almost all small clubs what year is this this is 98 to maybe i lived in san francisco probably play once a year twice a year in the corner of some shit dive bar or like at a coffee shop you know smuggle some tequila and ruin the show on the second sec kind of thing but i yeah so 98 to 2002 you’re up there you’re you’re playing occasionally in the back of some freaking whatever yeah you know and and waiting tables to to survive and uh where you were were you but this was your goal your goal was be a musician at this point yeah but it was loose and lazy kind of and just not not realized i mean i used to not get gigs i didn’t have i didn’t have shit i didn’t have uh so i would make cassette tapes on my brothers through my brother’s pioneer uh dual cassette player right through the pa through the pa and i would record and i would lay down 10 songs and then i would send them to friends and send them to family for a presents for like christmas or or for whatever right and and i had no press i’m picturing people opening up i’m like oh we got another freaking tape oh yeah thank you this thing’s going in the shit can oh that’s painful so you so you’re thinking are you thinking that’s gonna be a hobby you just think hey it’s fun i i want to do it but i’m not i don’t have the know-how or maybe the drive really to really know what i’m doing i mean my brother was my manager i saw this he was doing shit but we found this old tape and it had uh we had this little band in um in uh in huntington beach like right when i would have been playing guitar for like six months maybe and these guys heard me singing they’re like holy shit like let’s start a band and they one guy played bass and then i played drums and we started a band called living room right this is started in the living room as well you know so there was all this it was silly and we’re fucking terrible and uh but on the cassette it says living room and then boom no there’s no title to the whatever the the little ep thing it’s only cassettes by the way and matt smith my brother’s name and his his his phone number big multiple times so it was like it looks pretty bro i was freaking hollywood people just looking for that number to dial right they’re like wow this guy must have a bunch of clients probably so i’m still trying to figure this out right you’re in san francisco it seems like you are very persistent but not very focused or maybe something like that or is it just you just didn’t know what to do i i was i was passionate about writing songs and i would keep writing songs so these uh laughable cassettes that i was creating were making their way down so i actually had a buddy who’s in the surf industry and uh he was a rep for for uh some surf companies and these cassette tapes started going to other people he would give one to one and then they would make google consecutive to cassette you know old school viral right old school viral jack smith as as much as it could be and that but wait a second i’m just going to confirm this we’re in 1998 or 2000 this is before that oh this is before that when i was making the cassettes and getting them out so this was the this was one my couple junior college years i think that i was creating these cassettes and they were kind of go moving around but i was unaware that other people were listening to them or other people were making duplicates of this and then i got a call from one of the guys shelter the guy who made shelter christmas christmas yeah when i was living in san francisco and he said hey i want to use one of your songs and one of my surf films and i was like what like how do you know you didn’t know him at the time i didn’t know him no oh this was one of the and this was one of just the cassette one to this guy to this guy this guy and then he ended up with one and one of the songs he said he wanted to use off this one of these cassettes and i was like why you know because i was used to you know surf films were airs and and punk and fast ass music and they’re like he’s like you know we were making this kind of more arty thing it was just me and an acoustic guitar it was wrong yeah i was wrong it was a song um and then that yeah because that was that was like it was like a soul kind of yeah the malloy brothers are all cool guys totally um then so so that happens and then all of a sudden does that give you a little that desperado like did that happen that didn’t even that didn’t give me the um that gave me a little validation and said like oh yeah maybe i’m doing the right or doing something this is maybe something to pursue harder they asked me to come and play the um all these are just you and your guitar oh yeah there’s no band no band just me solo and that’s par partially of how why i play guitar the way i do because i used to just fill the space with everything not with noodling but just with strumming and there’s a lot of up down and uh percussive stuff um and then they asked me to play the uh the premiere of the movie down in san diego so i come down and i play whatever 30 minutes before the movie and i see people singing along to other songs of mine from these silly cassettes right and i’m like what is going on what is this and i don’t have shit going on in san francisco my brother had gone off and was like uh working at the olympics or something so he had left san francisco and i had this like drunk ass roommate and i packed my shit up and quit my job and then moved down to southern california and then started kind of fresh a little more focused but not very focused still you know and then that’s it was a long road you know a lot of couches then it was just couches then i didn’t have another job so wait so then you you said i missed it you moved to san diego or you moved to l a i moved to orange county to orange county yeah they’ll surf industry in there yeah was that kind of like a dream i mean for the uh the variety of songs i write which many of them are quite dark or at least emotional or visceral in a way that the surf industry i thought was an odd kind of place to to pick it up and pick up you know go like oh yeah this is you know this might make you cry let’s put that in the in a surf film you know it was it was an odd place to start i thought or at least to get what year was it that you moved down here 2002 oh okay what year did shelter come out um probably around then okay i bet it’s that same time it was pretty immediate after after that happened i was like oh shit i didn’t just nothing was happening and i’d been in san francisco for four years nothing was going to happen in san francisco you know i wasn’t i was idle i was too idle and i needed something to push myself um and so i needed to make a change so you get down here then what’s the next step now you’re not now you’re not waiting tables anymore are you somehow getting by and hardly though i mean like uh playing every other wednesday at the sushi bar in seal beach and playing in the corner this barbecue restaurant in in santa ana and just like take jar out tip jar making you know between 50 and 300 bucks a pop and sleeping on people’s couches stayed at my buddy’s house for like maybe a year and a half in their guest room no that’s a buddy super i mean he’s a beautiful man scott marsh uh yeah i know i’m grateful for that time because it really allowed me to i don’t know i i it allowed me to at least craft what i was doing and at least get some um stage time performance time um before anything was really happening so how long were you in that situation before when’s the first time you went into a studio and recorded um not on a pioneer tape deck yeah it was after so as after shelter came out um those same cassettes had gotten to the guy bob hurley who owns hurley and he paid for me to make my first album and i actually made it with this a surfer up in or in san diego peter king do you know peter i don’t know um he had a home studio at his house and i made my first album which was hogtied like a rodeo which i discontinued and redid at some point in my career because i wasn’t totally loving how it turned out because i was super green and never been in studio i only knew the pioneer you know i didn’t know that it was more than a record button right echo charles take note right yeah yeah play and record at the same time at the same time okay there was some complications you know what what happened to that album like what happened that album that you felt like you lost control of it a little bit did they go and over produce it or something are they like hey we’re gonna bring in jim you know jimmy on the freaking lead guitar and get his fender in here and start cranking out yeah i mean i was raw and i i liked kind of some of the rawness and it seemed to get a little too produced um in a way i would just like leave uh leave town i would go somewhere and visit some people and then they would have musicians would come in and play on it and then they’d be like hey check this out and i’ll be like oh i don’t know you know it was it wasn’t i wasn’t at the command at all that’s weird it was out of my hands which is normally which is that was the only time i really made that mistake you know um but you live in your learn and in happenstance to look back and go like you know you discontinue and then you re-recorded it later which seems like it was a moment in time and even if i was green i think the songs were still good um why i re-recorded it and discontinued that other one i don’t know why but you can fight you try to find that one like there’s some like japanese sites and stuff that’ll have that cd which there weren’t that many of them because they were just like uh that are like 500 bucks or something just stupid you know for this well and you could probably get it on the internet just like these webs so that’s so that’s the first album that comes out does it come out is that the right word did it even come out or was it just like hey we’re making it work it doesn’t come out i sell it it shows that’s it you know we have this kind of fictitious label that bob and this guy paul gomez make and it is uh yeah nothing really happens i’m still playing at the sushi bar um doing that for and i was in that state for quite some time you know like two years two years of sushi bar jar sushi bar tip jar then what what what happened from there that got you away from the sushi bar in the tip jar uh it was um i met i think i moved up because i met my my wife and i moved up to um los angeles and met some people got kind of a manager um and we went in the studio and recorded my first ep is this this is just the buffalo and it’s yeah it’s i think it’s five six songs on that um which was super stripped down now was this um who who’s who’s paying for this you know who is running who bought you studio time this was a my manager at the time was managing uh donovan frankenwriter oh okay and i so he i would open up for him i started opening up for him and i would get some exposure doing that and met the keyboard player this guy who actually played for the eels as well okay um rusty oh i forgot his last name he went by cool g murder and he was kind of he had rusty whatever but he had this like his redhead had this big like ginger beard kind of like wispy you know not a whole lot of hair and uh call himself culture he was cool she was cool what was his nickname cool g murderer cool g murder it says if you look if you had that ep and you looked on produced by it says produced by cool g murder oh i will check that out uh so so that so you record this thing are we still pre like internet um whatever mp3 situations yeah yeah we’re still sales are still yeah i don’t even know for digital yeah i don’t know are we i don’t know if it was itunes and that stuff it had been i don’t know either i don’t think so because i think they date that ep on itunes is something way later than it actually was you know so so when that album comes out is it what happens is it freaking wasn’t just no factor i independently release it myself and it’s just me selling it basically at uh shows and i think when the digital format comes up i get it up on there and i’m that’s it nothing is happening i ended up doing that for a couple so you’re in that state still and it’s still a couple albums and then i’d put a couple more albums out doing that in that state almost and what at what point did you start to feel some forward moment like like i was saying earlier man i went and saw you at ucsd in like a little cafe and there’s 15 people in there and i was actually like me my wife her friends our friends we’re all sitting there yeah and everybody’s i remember that and everyone’s like sitting indian style on the ground yeah yeah and i’m super stoked i’m like this is so rad you know like yeah i mean it’s been just this super long haul of not too many spikes i mean later i’m starting later i mean it’s not until i get um you know probably start start getting the actual tv licenses where stuff starts getting more serious and that doesn’t come until what year i was still independent didn’t have uh i had hogtied revisited now under my belt which is a full-length album and two eps and i didn’t have a manager i didn’t have a booking agent anything and my lawyer asked the music supervisor for sons of anarchy to to lunch and said hey i got this guy it’ll work he writes murder songs and conflicted emotional songs you know that that and um when you’re in that state so you’re in this state like there’s got to be a point there’s got to be a thought that goes through your mind of all right you know like this ain’t gonna work i gotta i gotta figure out how i gotta feed my family i got to figure out how i’m going to get a mortgage i got to figure out how i’m going to buy a house was that fought in your mind or was it a good were you getting by enough were you having i mean you you obviously you love playing live at least as far as i can tell you freaking love playing live is that a good enough time we’re like hey this is a cool job right now and i’m good with it yeah i mean it was very small means and and i we didn’t need that money much money to survive really at that point um oh yeah i remember i got off uh another surf movie i did uh this one from jason baffa called single thin yellow and i did a uh a little piece off that and that was the first time i ever like wrote to picture one of the only times actually and i came up with that song and that idea and then i i i redid it and recorded it on my first ep um and create made it into a more of a song one before was just this thing they used that person that that piece like walmart called me for commercial out of nowhere too i didn’t have a publisher they thought i was a publisher and quoted me some money there he gave me i was like holy shit and i was like walmart i was like no fuck yeah and then and then i want that walmart money son but then i remember i was like oh wait let me you know i don’t want to shoot myself in the foot let me pass it on to my manager at the time right who’s pretty green he ends up getting less money somehow than i had negotiated initially that’s because that’s but still but it was more it was it was more money than i’d ever seen and it was like oh okay here’s you know i could have lived off that that was more money than i’d made probably in the previous four years wow you know of doing of doing the music so you are getting it’s like it’s like you’re uh you know when you were a kid and you had some girlfriend and and like she would break up with you but she would string you along right you know that and people say don’t string don’t string people along it’s like you were getting strung along by yeah the little carrots i mean there’s a carrot you know another good made some good tips tonight then you get the big call from walmart it’s on like donkey kong right so then so that was from single thing yellow which is a kick-ass movie they take this board and they send it around the world a bunch of different people surfing a bunch of different wild spots um but this is still still you’re not you know able to just or are you able to just survive on on being a musician at this point yeah and i was i had been for for a bit i did uh use my college degree for a little substitute teaching which was hilarious oh man hilarious become heartbreaking at the same time why do you say that uh just you know uh middle school kids are pretty dangerous you know i’m pretty confused and pissed and so i end up breaking up more fights than i was teaching anybody anything or you know i mean i wasn’t there’s not much of a a lesson plan often left for the substitute teacher so you’re showing a movie or you’re just trying to keep the kids safe i’m gonna say don’t get don’t get thrown out the window it’s the lesson plan right so uh but i didn’t do that that that long or very very um very often um when you when you’re in these when you’re in this period of your life i mean the the songs that you write the music that you write the lyrics that you write i’m i’m projecting my thoughts onto this but you know when you’re sitting working in a dive bar somewhere playing a gig and you look over in the corner and you see this character is does that develop into hey you know i know what that guy’s thinking or i’m thinking about what that person’s life is like does that add is it good that you went through this time period of of where you were kind of struggling through and making things happen did you does that incorporate into your the things you think about i mean i honestly think the way that i did it um was beneficial to me as a songwriter as an artist for this long of a time that if i would have had somebody come in and go like hey wow this guy’s he can sing and he writes these pretty good songs but like we can why don’t we develop this guy into something else into a country store or something else and instead i was able to be 100 true to the songs i write the artists that i wanted to be and never had to do anything that i didn’t want to do it always my vision and always 100 from me which is super rare these days especially i mean there’s like you know a song on the radio you got 15 people wrote it you know it’s like it’s it’s kind of unheard of and but i think that this super long haul that it’s taken me and even now i’m still a little secret you know it’s not like i’m a superstar or people know who i am i walk down the street it’s like rare for me to get noticed you know i’m always kind of like put off by somebody going like hey are you are you are you the i was like oh yeah i am and then i’ll be like oh shit you know i love you people that really like me really like me but most people don’t know about me you know which i’m kind of like it’s a sweet spot kind of for me i mean i’m not making millions of dollars but i’m doing okay i can survive and provide um but i’m not uh you know i don’t i can still be be me do what i want to do and and not not be uh you know afraid to go out in public at all that that’s good just uh so so you were just getting to the point where i cut you off and redirected the story in a totally different direction because that was really cool that’s fine but uh you were talking about the your so you got this manager guy and he knows um the musician director from sons of anarchy that was actually post so i had my first guy and i uh first manager one he’s actually my second manager who was managing donald and frank writer and i ended up touring with him for probably a year and a half when i was with him um it went to japan went all over the world and this was when he was he peaked when donovan was kind of peaking and were you just living the dream it was i mean they let me travel on the bus i was like you know we weren’t on the sushi bar anymore you know don’t feel good bro and just to see the world where you’re seeing the world and you’re getting perspectives and different you know it really opens your mind traveling when i was in the seal teams i was on deploy when i would be on deployment i would know in my mind like every day i would know that this was like the best you know i was kind of just loving life you know living you know people always say living the dream i was living the dream i was actually doing exactly what i always dreamed of doing for my whole life that’s amazing it seems like that’s what would be you know you being on tour it was i just had low i didn’t have and maybe that’s my been my outlook a lot of the time to kind of have low expectations and then not be really that disappointed and even when i’m not getting accolades or i’m not getting you know playing huge rooms or or but making enough money to be okay and feel pretty okay about what i’m doing and still being true to myself um was enough and it’s always kind of been enough for me okay so you get a pretty good launch you get a taste of the road right get a taste of the road bro you’re there and and then did that when you get done touring with that tour what’s the next step um you know we started i don’t know where we’re at where was i at that moment i’m probably the the next big step is getting the sons of anarchy stuff for sure that that that put me in a place um where now i could go well after the show really like it was like the third season i think they started using my stuff and how and so it’s uh you i cut once again i just cut you off randomly and said hey let’s take a so how did that come about that that you ended up on sons of anarchy uh no so is my lawyer steve sessa who i still have today uh invited the music supervisor to lunch and said listen i have this guy he’s an unsight artist doesn’t have any management doesn’t have anything um puts on his own albums i think he was a big fan of the show of santa monica and he’s like you know the conflict and these you know it’s like the show is basically these uh emotional men doing kind of terrible shit you know and i have a lot of that kind of conflict in some of my songs too that it’s something that this guy feels like kind of a badass but god he’s maybe kind of a sweetheart underneath or you feel for this guy who’s really it’s a murder song you know but you’re he’s kind of the hero though at the same time so it’s this conflict to him was perfect for that show and then he he gave him gave him my whole catalog basically and then in not that long at all they they’re like okay we’re gonna use this in the next and you know in three episodes or something and uh but that was a slow thing as well you know that was they’d use us one song and then they used another song but then they ended up using i think seven or eight of my own songs that i that were my own compositions that were already out there um and then they had me come and sing on stuff so stuff that they would create that was part of the soundtrack and just how they used music in that show i don’t know if you watched it but it was very we do these montages at the end that would be the song would be part of the of the story and it would just be these montages visuals and they would play the song at full length at full volume and it would be like another character and then i think people started recognizing my voice and saying man what is this maybe we should go deeper you know into this and at that point we had i hadn’t been to europe on my own as an artist i’d only opened up for people and you don’t really know what kind of uh legs you have in places you don’t know when you don’t have any history in places and if you just opened up for somebody you don’t really have history because really you’re just playing for their people so then shit’s going better and getting better and we go man we gotta go we gotta check out europe i don’t know what’s you know starting to play bigger rooms all over the country and nobody no no clubs who want us they never heard of us you know and they’re like and then we’re like well at least we’ll you know we got a festival somewhere so we’re like okay we’re gonna play this festival in spain or something so but we gotta try to play in london and just see what tickets are like see what happens so we play this like little tiny room we’re gonna play like a 200 cap room that sells out like an hour they’re like oh shit well they’re like what’s going on and then they like well let’s bump up the room and then they bump it up to like 700 capacity which was bigger than i’m playing most of the places in the states and then that sells out another hour and then they’re like wow what’s going on and then that so we just went and we played a couple shows in europe and then realized like okay this is a viable market like we can make some money over here and we have a fan base and i think almost due to the popularity of that show um you know at that point i signed with the label you know small kind of boutique label which basically was these two guys that that were producers and engineers who produced and engineered uh four albums um i just just have left now and i’m only with the difference what made you decide to go why did you need you’ve been doing it yourself what made you make the transition it was not um i didn’t i never had any even though there wasn’t a much of a machine behind those other albums and still now not really um i just wanted to get in the game you know what i mean i’d never been in the game you know and i was just like i’m just an island i’m still kind of an island but then i was like i wasn’t even in the game you know and they’re like you know i think somebody was just like dude getting the game like what are you doing like you know the labels you know you know it wasn’t like i had uh the know-how or any of the anything when i’m independently releasing things no it wasn’t like it was fucking six months set up to be like oh all right the album’s gonna come out may you know 20th and we’re gonna be promoting this thing for now it was when it was done what’s my marketing plan look like for the next album there was nothing i it would just go up it would just put it up it would be i finished something and then i would just put it up you know digitally and and make cds so so then you sign you sign with these guys is that the right terminology yeah yeah and we did like a three album four album deal with them um are you the um is this all your decision making you’re the guy uh yeah i ended up getting my manager right when i was signing i was looking for somebody else i was like in between i think i had like three different managers who were all i don’t want to say hacks but like they weren’t um they just did probably but they they weren’t as they did they weren’t as professional or as right for me i’ll just say that they weren’t they weren’t maybe right for me to try to get me to the another plateau and now i got jeff farner who’s great and and smart and political and um also though very in my corners for still allowing me to have my vision and and do what i want to do musically um so right right before that uh we do the deal i sign with him as well or i bring him on as my manager been with him ever since and then you that so now you’re officially in the game now you’re selling out places in europe and what does it look like when you get back to the states because it’s weird you know it’s weird how that can happen and i got some other friends and that are musicians and like overseas they’re freaking massive and back here there’s just not not action i mean it’s it’s crazy and i don’t even know some markets i mean we’ve never been to south america like if you look on my comments you look on any youtube thing i have every other comment has come to brazil or something brazil but we’ve never been to brazil it’s far uh it’s a little sketchy right i don’t know uh when we’ll get there i want to get there um you know but uh we’re doing better it’s a slow build and we never go down you know which i appreciate but still in places like the south we haven’t had that much touring history i’ve probably done like two or three tours there and we’re still building that um is it weird because how do you categorize your music that’s part because that’s got to be an issue that’s part of the issue and that that’s an issue with labels some of the time too because they don’t understand it it doesn’t fit in any really category you know even you have this americana idea now it doesn’t it’s not air quotes it just it doesn’t seem i don’t know it it feels like uh i don’t belong in that genre either i mean part of it does part of it’s kind of this country there’s country elements there’s rock elements there’s some more aggressive more punk stuff there’s um folk stuff there’s ballads there’s you know it’s it it belongs in anything it’s organic yeah and it comes from mostly it comes from three guys playing or you know if we put some other stuff on albums but it’s it’s uh we’re the most stripped down band that that um you’ll ever see really i mean other than if it’s one guy playing guitar i mean it’s three guys with no effects yeah there’s no vocal effects there’s no effects on my guitar there’s no there’s no nothing it’s three guys so that so that’s an issue because you can’t say oh there’s this you know this other band that kind of fits in the white buffalo category and there we can play with these four other bands we can do a festival or whatever because where do you really fit at the same time though but you can fit in all other little categories too there’s benefits to that too because i can play a rock festival yeah i can play a country festival you know yeah cause you’re kind of like your own you know your own little your own little genre yeah i never hopefully that i have my own sound kind of yeah you know which is okay and not to mention i think you’re the only person that writes murder songs right or at least the ones you could dance and love songs and murder songs oh i guess that’s right i guess i’m leaving out all my deaf metal brothers out there who are write 100 murder songs you’re the only one out there doing acoustic folk murder songs even though have you ever heard what is it called viking folk medal have you ever heard that viking folk medal yes yes no they play like traditional viking instruments but they’re playing metal really yes i mean that’s another group you could come from like viking blood so that might be uh maybe that’s my genre well at least you can slide in there you can maybe do some some viking uh folk metal what are they called festivals i mean if they exist absolutely probably somewhere in scandinavia right i’m sure there’s that going on so when you when you um when you’re do do the where do the songs come from like the majority of them if not all of them come from just silence from nowhere you know a lot of them will be gibberish or something they just come in out of out of being quiet and they often i will say something sing something and i will recognize what the important part is or the piece of it that that has some validity or worth and expand on that one little idea most of the time sometime i’ll sing something that just i don’t even know where it came from you know it’s i can sing a whole verse in a course not not with not with an idea that i’m going to write a song about this i don’t even know what they’re about initially and then i craft them into things that hopefully have some kind of emotional response so there’s some level of you being on the lookout for a little nugget of goodness that you can grab onto and plant and i just feel lucky like that i feel like they’re lucky little diamonds that come out of fucking the ether you know what i mean and i i think my gift is recognizing what those little lucky moments are to go like oh let me grab that that’s a good idea you know and i do i i know that i can craft something off of one very small idea to realize how i can turn that into a whole concept or a whole song pretty quick um but yeah i don’t know i wish i had better stories about it i was talking to robert o’keene who did a podcast with him and he was like tell me what where were we at what was this you know what’s the inspiration behind this i’m like this is no there’s no inspiration it’s just imagined you know it’s like imagination is that the inspiration yeah but it’s not in my head i’m not like it’s not there’s no um pre-thought about it rarely it’s born in your head yeah it just comes from your head yeah that’s like the so i was an english major in college i’ll have you know so what you’re saying right now what you’re saying right now i’m gonna put you on the spot so what you’re saying right now is there was these people and there was all there’s all this controversy and i’m not even remember it that well because i really don’t remember that much of college but there would be people that would say you know i wrote this poem just it just i just wrote it and i’m talking like classical like real famous literature people oh the word is that this person just wrote this it just came out and it’s like they didn’t have to work for it that’s kind of what you’re doing you’re just like hey i’m rarely i’m over here just freaking just developing nuggets of gold i’m rarely doing that they’re rarely that easy but the inception of them the beginnings of them are that easy but some of the time it’s a very small little piece of something and it’s not very rarely sometimes i have sat down in my in my lifetime and and just something spilled out and then you’re like holy shit there it is like love song number one is one kind of like that that was it off my first ep that just kind of spilled out and then i was like well there’s like what was that what is that about you know there’s even a moment in the song where i’m still like what is that even about you know and um and just left it in kind of you know now i i edit more stuff now you know and make every word perfect or try as perfect as i feel like i can make it you know but um and then what’s the deal on you know what do you owe in other words are you like hey i better get another album out in another you know because you just you just put out your latest album what a few few months ago yeah april april 17th april 17th so now do you start feeling the pressure in your head of i need to do more because i needed to cut another album do you start feeling pressure in your head that you got ideas in there that need to get out do you not even think about it i don’t even think about it i i don’t like i i um i’ll write here and there and there’ll be little snippets in my phone but i don’t really think about it even this last record who i did with shooter jennings produced it um that i didn’t have i didn’t think i had hardly any songs going into talking with him and meeting with him and the night before we went out drinking like the first time and didn’t even talk about working together really we’re just talking about life and and just get drunk we got drunk like where did you meet him uh where where where did we get drunk at or where did you know where did you get drunk uh frolic room on like hollywood well i mean randomly no no no it was set up it was like a blind date between our managers set us up thinking that this might be a match made in heaven but uh no i went so i went in the first time to meet him to kind of show him what i’d been working on or if something you know to develop some songs and i was like i don’t have shit i feel like shit i woke up the night before and uh had an idea sang it into my phone and was like okay well at least i can show them that tomorrow and we’ll work on that all day and see what happens well i take that to him and i sing it to him i think him kind of the idea it was actually quite realized but it’s like my son was like sleeping i had this little tiny studio fucking place for sleep sleeping and my son’s sleeping on the so you’re like oh sorry like i couldn’t even make out what i’m saying but i’m trying to be quiet just to not wake him and i show him this thing the next day and then i sing it and we work it out in like 20 minutes and then i already have it kind of realized and it’s like what else do you have i was like oh i have oh this and he’s like well that’s amazing explore that i mean what else you have and i was like oh how about this and he’s like that’s yeah do that like explore that and i would just and then we just went down and i was like okay and then after that little meeting i went on just a like a i go on little riding tears little benders and then i just basically wrote the whole album in about a week a week and a half and before i was like you know i have little snippets that are coming in you know but then to realize and then finish them really fast sometimes and sometimes you know it’s like added sometimes it’s out of just inspiration and desperation so the little pressure can maybe squeeze something out of you have you ever been to a point where you were feeling pressure but just nothing was coming out i had another album uh loving the death of damnation that i remember i used to with the old producers i would go and i would sing i would give have all these ideas and i would come in and they would be like okay yeah let’s explore that one let’s let’s do that work on that one and a lot of time it would be like every one but i’d have like 20 ideas 25 ideas or something like that right and for that album i had like you know it was about time to record and i had maybe six ideas that i played in and they’re all kind of like on all of them you know and then i was like fuck it let’s just start wednesday i’m like what are we gonna do wednesday and i was like i’ll be ready wednesday yeah you pretty wednesday and then we just did that one like that but that was completely out of desperation and then hit a lucky uh prolific time little little lucky streak yeah great album how did you link up with uh with matt and um christopher so matt has been drumming who’s a freaking animal by the way he’s a freaking animal i mean as far as i don’t think i would be the performer i am today without matt no you guys you guys get you guys look at each other and you guys just get go off it’s freaking savage it’s awesome i mean especially for like an acoustic trio who’d you think wouldn’t be terribly aggressive you know and he’s just sticks are flying and breaking and shards of wood or you know getting pulled out of dudes women and children at some point i realized that you called him the machine right yeah and then i would every show i’d go to and i’d be like machine i would get all crazy but and then like the last couple times i’ve gone other people were yelling and i was kind of disappointed i kind of felt like oh that well whenever you started it i don’t know man it was just kind of just gone yeah cause he just goes nuts so so i’m sorry how did you link up with him um that was actually the first album i did for the hurley guy hogtied uh like a rodeo i’ve had matt since then no way he wasn’t on that album but there was a guy tommy andrews who’s from san diego as well who was my bass player for the first 10 years of my career uh played guitar on that album and knew matt and this guy russell hayden who played banjo and dobro like the most evil fucking banjo ever you heard and uh but it was perfect for us creepy evil banjo bring it and he’d like where he wouldn’t he would like dress like liza minnelli and like to know any eyebrows and he’d be like like fucking awesome banjo player um but anyways uh but i met matt through this guy tommy andrews and we all did it it was the first time i ever felt before that i only played by myself yeah really never played never performed even when i’m in the corner of any place was always by myself and that was the first time i was like whoa this is what it feels like to really feel and feed off of other people’s energy and playing and matt’s played with me ever since and christopher’s been with us for maybe matt and christopher are like best buddies and hoffy’s not even a wasn’t even a bass player he’s a producer and engineer so he can play everything right he’s one of those guys yeah but now he’s a really good bass player now yeah um what’s when look i i try and explain this to people you gotta get the albums for sure and then you gotta go see you gotta go see the live shows it’s freaking insane i i think yeah i mean i i don’t know i mean we just go fucking go ape shit i mean we don’t know and i just think it’s very visceral in the way that we approach like it’s like the last show of our lives you know we do that every night and i don’t know any other way to do it you know and matt doesn’t and christopher we’re just like you know a few wild animals up there you know is it do you feel it do you feel frustration that you i mean are you gonna do you don’t have a live album no we don’t are you gonna do that do you think it would get it done do you think you’d be able to capture it i think so i think we could uh i mean the hardest part is really acoustic guitar live is a difficult thing to kind of capture that make that sound like an acoustic guitar but uh yeah i think we could capture it live we should we people ask that all the time because it is such a different animal i mean i think i mean it’s a high compliment when people are like oh it’s better than the albums you know it’s it’s uh i think it’s more of an experience i mean to get people during parts of the show that you know the people want to fight during this time people are crying you know and you’ll see right you see like a military guy in a and a fucking hippie in there and you know and then some guy from some other completely different background but somehow they found this secret band you know that’s like this is our band this is our my band but oh it’s success man too but that’s okay well fuck it we’re in this together we’re bros bikers hippies surfers i mean it’s like let’s all let’s all go get some right that’s freaking yeah i know it’s it’s awesome if people get a chance to see that it’s like um yeah you you got to go check it out uh dude what’s the matador about the matador yeah matadors or that was actually the first song they used on sons of anarchy um that but it was off of my first ep it was already recorded uh matador i wanted to do a song that you couldn’t tell if it was a man um killing people or a man killing or matador and i just like that kind of loose um a thing where you can’t tell really and i i want to leave it up to the listener whether they decide is this a man killing people in the light of day in public in front of people or is this the or is he talking about a bull fighter yeah you know that’s kind of a wild concept kind of and i don’t know where they right how about carnage carnage is another dark one um that one my idea was um some kind of warfare comes to where you live some kind of either either it’s nuclear viral or something and you have to take your family and go hide down in the basement and it’s a kind of a narrative so it starts and we all just go hide down in the basement and i feel like the main character is kind of the father figure and then um you don’t know what’s happening outside everyone’s just hiding and it just gets darker and darker and and people start kind of losing their minds the madman uh madman’s just you’re doing all murder songs you know what uh i just thought to myself i’m like well that’s all murder songs and you know and like you said earlier you got the sweetest songs you got the most romantic songs and you definitely provided some very nice evenings for me and my wife to hang out and have a very pleasant time you’ve also provided me with like nice soundtracks for the darkness yeah that i mean i i love that i mean the thing is i don’t know why people don’t dive into the fucking dark side of the pool you know it’s like there’s so much the jungle podcast but there’s so much you know in on in those shadowy parts like movies like that and stuff like that like that’s a powerful primal thing that i think is cool that that should be explored i think i’m lucky that i can sing in the way i can that i can be tender at some moments when i when i love song or i have something that needs to be and then on the other side of the hand that to be more aggressive and loud and howling um but yeah the madman’s another just serial killer kind of murder song that it’s just like you can’t he’s undeniable he’s just all-powerful and he’s coming after you it’s just scary uh you know i never i never have thought about the fact that you write murder songs before um until you said it today i was like oh yeah that’s that’s the whole thing there’s a bunch of those murder songs every album at least has at least one yeah i mean i’m looking at my list i’m like oh yeah yeah that’s that’s oh yeah oh darling what have i done oh yeah that’s that’s an absolute freak that one’s fucking twisted though totally that one’s that one’s about a man who thinks and i don’t even know i come up with this bullshit but like how who thinks in order to get the affection of his woman and that he starts killing people and collecting basically collecting these lives and he’s killing these people as like a sign of like the ultimate gift to give to this woman kind of in his mind thinking that she’s going he’s going to win his her affection due to whatever this illusion how about the pilot uh the pilot feels like i love this song uh the high women by jimmy webb yeah and it wasn’t it wasn’t off that thing but it’s it’s that one’s just kind of just about kicking ass kind of like like kicking ass and taking names right right is that part yeah that’s part of the pilot i mean that one’s i i like how it starts you know you start with the pilot and basically it kind of just sets up sets a table for just a pilot and then it goes fighter pilot then it goes outlaw and then it’s just like town what is it the one yeah kicking us take a name go town to town killing dreams yes uh man you know you did the the album with the joey white theme throughout it and that’s so that’s that’s like a what is it a rock opera what is it is it a concept album i guess is what we call it yeah we’ve got this whole story this whole thread of of a couple yeah right and you know it sounds like they meet when they’re young you’ve got some freaking great lines man just great great stuff what made you decide to go hey i’m going concept album i’ve always wanted to i mean i always look at my songs as little movies little mini movies and the idea of building a whole narrative um around those linking those also it’s it’s a linear thing which i don’t even know most concept albums are seem really loose like even if you listen to the dark side of the moon or something that’s not like you jump from one thing to another you know and that’s this guy’s whole road i i did i don’t know i’ve always been fascinated by war and soldiers and people going off to war and then coming back and all this thing and so i had some songs already and i was like i want to do a concept album and then i said oh and i do it now and i thought oh i could put this song here or this can i start changing names put this song over here and then build this whole arc of this guy’s lifetime you know it’s basically a love story or i think it’s a love story but it’s you know it’s a white buffalo kind of way right in a murderous sort of way a dark a dark thing so they start off they meet each other they fall in love but it’s kind of this forbidden love and so they have to go leave the small town they’re from and he finds out pretty quickly that he cannot provide for his family so he joins the military goes off to war or kills feels like kind of a killing machine and then comes back still kind of bloodthirsty and and and not assimilating kills again at home and and then it’s skews back into a love story kind of or at least this his road to redemption kind of and the idea that and the one thing is the power of love or the power of his woman is what makes him feel human or halfway human again and um it basically goes the whole arc to his life at the end he’s he’s gonna die and he’s kind of questioning god and and wondering after all this bad shit i’ve done in my life like am i am i in there are you up there you know just still kind of confused and conflicted but trying to figure out man freaking all all this great stuff man wherever you’re getting it from i hope those little magic nuggets that go into your brain help or enter your brain or are produced in your brain i hope they just freaking keep on coming man um hey did your son play lead guitar for you one time at house of blues he did many times okay well i mean my oldest son tanner um who is we’ve tried to add a fourth guy sometimes you know we’ve always liked this power trio kind of thing or with an acoustic guitar is ridiculous really but uh um we would try to add a fourth guy but it always felt like it kind of took away from i mean all we were kind of dynamics you know so we get really big and we get really quiet we get really big and with three that seems to work really well and you add another thing but tanner is when he’s at his on his game and at his best has been maybe my favorite fourth kind of member during it yeah he’s an animal right on what so what’s what’s up next what’s the future hold that’s a weird time i mean you know it’s like i had an album coming come out during this you know the covid and the pandemic and and touring stopped we had i mean a shitload of shows you know shows going all of 2020 um and beyond you know we’re gonna go all the way around the world all over the world you know at least places that we’d have some history and it’s just that just i’ll stop that all dried up and so there’s nothing that’s all being postponed to hopefully when we do it i mean our first tour that we were gonna do in april that’s gonna be a whole year we’re gonna go back to europe in april and then hopefully stuff will start opening up and i don’t know really the future is is a is uh unknown for sure to say the least but uh yeah i mean i’m gonna continue i was really proud of this this you know recent piece of work that i did um which almost was going to start out as a concept as well what was the concept going to be this one was one time we were we’re touring traveling we’re on like the eastern seaboard and i keep seeing these uh these uh rooftop decks up on top of these kind of victorian houses and i’m like what are those you know and and the drummer was like oh those are called widows walks and those are the wives or significant others of captains and uh whatever fisherman whalers or stuff would you know they would their husbands would leave and and go do their jobs but not return for many months or many weeks and the wives would go up kind of scouting looking longing for their husbands to come home and i just thought like oh that’s you got it it’s all right there right i mean you have the romance you have the drama you have the to see the power you know and um just the story was already there i was like oh it’s gonna be easy and so i started writing some of those which there’s a song called widow’s walk there’s another one with sycamore that made the album there’s a couple that are still on there but then i had these other songs that i was like because it’s confining you know if you’re like especially when i think of a concept as a narrative to be like oh well there’s this song about the fires in california in 2018 or there this song about that wouldn’t really fit in the construct of that um so i kind of abandoned the idea without not entirely kind of some of the songs made it and then inadvertently other songs would have other angles angles and concepts and water and uh uh longing and lost loves and all kinds of stuff that ended up kind of getting into there and and being part of the writing but way looser you know well it’s a freaking it’s another another great album and i always talk about there’s there’s not too many bands in my opinion that can do five awesome albums in a row like black sabbath they did it zeppelin they did it metallica close but they did it right there’s not too many bands that can do five awesome albums in a row and part of it is i think what you said earlier you know you’re at this level where you know if if you would have done that first demo and gotten picked up by whatever big record company and had a big bus and all this nice stuff and you probably didn’t you probably don’t squeeze out even two more good albums but man you were there and and you’re knocking out every album that you don’t know what number you’re on right now but it’s it’s more than five and you’re still freaking putting out awesome work and i don’t know what the future holds but i do know this when you’re back on the road we will be there well thank you kindly you got the uh any last thoughts man no i just appreciate you i appreciate you you know i appreciate that i’m a part of so many people’s lives and often though than terrible parts of their lives that that i get people coming up to me uh saying how i helped them through this moment of divorce or or or being in the military or death of somebody super close to them um and i’m proud to be that you know for a while it’s odd because i’m actually not that serious of a dude you know i’m pretty like if you went drinking with me you’re like that guy really you know and then but there’s like a i guess there’s like a jaclyn hyde thing right it kind of is if you might do these silly episodes these things call in the garage and everything that shit yeah so i do it’s just me in my garage and i make some stupid entrance or i’m spinning and twirling or something and then i kind of bullshit for two three five minutes about nothing i’m just kind of rambling and then but it’s kind of comedic and then then i just go into something probably dark and heavy some song that i have that’s in my catalog and i’ll play a song and then that’s it but it is kind of the duality of my persona or my not my persona just who i am that there’s but it’s just like everything i suppose there’s you know laughter and there’s love and there’s you know different sides of the coin there’s the light and the dark and so i have that i explore that and i explore that in music as well well thanks for taking us on the road with you down that down that path like i said look i know i’m coming out dark cause that’s sort of that’s sort of where i tend to go but man there’s you know a bunch of beautiful songs on there um the best music for you can apply to just about every part of your life so thanks for coming on man freaking awesome thank you for having me do you think maybe take it out with one moa jam shit you got it something off the new album yeah this is not the new album this one’s called no history yeah um get some i threw my dreams and wishing well it seems they all get lost in time time don’t fight fair it’s simply unaware write myself a different story one that’s filled with twisting turns and life is on fire where i might get burned off to a lesson learned i feel in the future comes that there won’t be love for everyone you can’t hold the hands of time it’s only here and now nothing way to be more no history no history memories they come crashing in living in the past is a waste of your life you can’t rewind leave it all behind what if morning never comes build your tomorrow’s out a day they’re all gonna go when nobody knows i feel when the future comes that no no history well you can’t hold the hands of time it’s only here and now no history no history no history no history no history no history boom awesome man thanks for coming down brother my pleasure thank you for having me and with that jake the white buffalo smith has left the building by the way i forgot to mention this you can find him on the interwebs at thewhitebuffalo com on facebook at the white buffalo instagram buffalo co buffalo i’m sorry maybe crazy buffalo is it i think you’re b-u-f-f-a-l-o-c-o buffalo yes twitter blanco buffalo right so and then youtube and there’s also youtube channel the white buffalo he puts out those little videos he was talking about that’s that man um awesome to have him down jake thanks for coming down and echo yes sir there is some darkness yeah and some light in the world it is true i think uh it was interesting to come and bring you know for for those of us that didn’t go deep because you mentioned white buffalo a lot the buffalo blanco you mentioned them yeah from time to time so those of us that didn’t go deep into you know recently exploring like who this was that you’d mentioned from time to time it was it was good to kind of bring them to light i understand now yeah kind of recognize it i recognize i kind of recognize don’t you yeah at what point at what point did you go down before we started recording and he was sorted sorting out his little yeah i was like okay actually when he rolled in and you know when someone starts talking especially a big guy like him i think they start talking like oh you have a singing voice right now maybe i noticed that you know why though i think because you know like i used to when i used to make like more um like how should i say like narrative type videos and i i yes i would hire a lot of voice over people and i did some voiceovers for echo charles sure yes so a lot of these professional voice over people like that you listen to their demo or some some of the guys like i’d call up on the phone and when they answer the phone i’m like i i see what you’re working with there already just them talking one guy one guy was like he put it on you could tell he put it on to answer them and you’re like yeah i’m looking for um mike jacobs the uh voice actor and he’s like one second please hello yeah actually that’s essentially what happened except he just wit out the gate he was he was performing right he was okay he was uh auditioning straight out on his own but the thing is i emailed him so he knew i was gonna call so of course but nonetheless when i heard jake talk i was like oh i did hit me like oh okay i see you um and then got some pipes yes sir and then that’s why i was gonna ask him like so he you didn’t take any voice lessons or anything but you just got the got the talent yeah out of the gate it’s good um so uh yes so is that that point i think is when it started to hit me and then yeah the first song was really really good and then the second song was really really good that’s that’s just the absolute tip of the iceberg man they’re gold all throughout those albums man yeah legit i’m looking into it well there’s darkness in the world as we heard yes it’s true also some light yes we talk about the darkness but we want to move towards the light what do you got how can we move towards the light yes always be moving towards the light you got to embrace the darkness every once in a while but at the end of the day you don’t want to just hang out in darkness the whole time that’s why we’re writing songs called carnage check and so what are we doing keeping ourselves capable as opposed to incapable we are keeping ourselves healthy which allows us to be capable which allows us to get out of the darkness if need be so this is what we’re doing we’re working out we’re reading you read a lot i read way more than i did before who was i just talking to you somebody i think it’s daryl cooper about like bro i didn’t grow up just oh there’s a book let me start reading books yeah but now i’m sort of like that like oh that looks like yeah well he said where’d you grow up and you said kawaii he said i wouldn’t have read either if i grew up in kauai more stuff to do which that was a good point for sure not that san diego sucks though i think i’m just more mature and understand the value more you know how like when you read a lot of times it’s like i’m reading you know i guess as far as as far as reading goes anyway we’re doing a lot of stuff to keep ourselves capable look through okay let’s go back to working out through workouts our bodies take a beating that’s the nature of working out really true you work out take a beating true then you recover from that beating those are called gains and we want to perpetuate gains but you got to perpetuate beatings as well so through the beatings are the darkness the gains are the last are the light exactly right exactly exactly right anyway so your joints will take a beating so no worries we got some good supplementation for those joints and for other stuff so jocko fuel this is a line high quality tip top top tier quality supplementation anyway joint warfare joints keep your keep your joints in the game 100 super krill oil same deal some antioxidants in there too super healthy for it’s just a healthy situation the grill oil vitamin d and i’m going down the line not in particular order i’m going down the line in the order that i take them straight up every single morning by the way i’m back on the discipline um disciplined routine thanks for the suggestion to you by the way unless okay vitamin d uh immunity keep the immunity up also cold war for immunity these are critical in staying in the game and if you don’t believe me try not take them i don’t try and not take them but i’m just saying theoretically if you want to test echo’s theories yeah go ahead and try it we don’t recommend it yeah especially if you took them for a long time then stop taking them that’s when you get you see you know it’s kind of like it’s kind of like if you stop drinking if you’ve been drinking for a long time you stop drinking how like how much energy you have the next day it’s kind of like that i mean you know in a matter of speaking anyway you know what i’m talking about also discipline the supplement okay it’s like a whole thing it is multiple choices yes multiple choice wait what is discipline yes because you can have discipline pills capsules so you can have discipline powder and you can have discipline in the cans yes the whole line of discipline is true and i it sorted itself out and it makes sense to be like okay so this one powder i take pretty much every day pretty much take it before workout that’s mainly the thing but if i don’t work out that day just take it in the morning boom kind of get off to a good sort of start you know um the can i use it as essentially an energy drink except for you don’t feel like junk yeah and it’s like more refreshing than an energy drink so it’s kind of like a like a i don’t know a refreshing energy drink okay multiple flavors by the way um and then the pills that’s sort of like on the go i only took the pills one time really yeah it doesn’t take in the bills many times yeah it hasn’t rolled into my routine as uh seamlessly as maybe in your situation nice to get that little hitter yep it’s true it’s nice to get that little hater boy i i would imagine so yes but jock a white tee we got that as well we also got molk so look you need supplementation we talked about we talked about the gains being the light well you need something to build the light with that’s true from a physics point of view when you want to make gains you need protein you might as well protein that tastes like a dessert that’s true get yourself some milk yeah it’s true so my son he’s four he’ll be for this month goes into the closet this was not yesterday the day before day before yesterday it goes into the closet gets uh the peanut butter mulk not the kid don’t wear your kid one and he says can we make some milkshakes straight up isn’t it awesome that your son wants something as much as you want him to have it yes here go like how often you get to say to your kid yes they’re begging you to do something that’s going to make them healthier stronger and a better person yeah exactly right go have some milk i’ll make it i’ll make all the monk you want how’s that sound yeah perfect it’s like them asking you hey can i go outside and do some push-ups like do you mind if i do that do you mind if i go outside and do a bunch of eight-count bodybuilders just to get some and you’re like absolutely well can i have some monkey yes you can it’s the same mix it up for you let me throw it in the blender throw it in the shaker and just make one up for you yeah exactly right it’s like okay you know how we play you know where we want to be playing we want to be playing the long game right strategic over tactical yes so every once in a while and i’ve said this before it’s true every once in a while you get one of those golden diamond nuggets that is beneficial short term and long term they’re rare they’re not every day they’re not every day at every corner they’re not they’re rare but they’re there molk is one of them straight up one of them salmon sashimi is another one that’s my opinion white tea did we say chocolate oh you mentioned it sure certified organic uh refreshing jock white tea in the tea bags and in cans too by the way my wife is on those on that kick still for the last like you get this stuff at origin maine com or you can get at the vitamin shop around the corner yes the vitamin shop around the corner you have to wait go get some it’s true speaking of origin main com other stuff on there notably jeans american-made denim straight up from the fabric that is fabricated jeans are available t-shirts are available these are available rash guards are available anything that you basically need to cover your body boots you need to cover your body otherwise it’s going to get scraped it’s going to get cold and you’re going to be naked yeah which is not good in many cases in most cases so get some clothes get some american-made clothes get some american-made clothes that are functional functional and that’s where my judgment stops you have to judge the other part speaking of clothes and representing and wearing things jocko has a store straight up represent on the path t-shirts discipline discipline equals freedom discipline equals freedom and it does by the way in case you didn’t know shirts hoodies hats beanies you know what else hardcore recondo t-shirts hardcore condo t-shirts yeah one of a kind that i happen to be wearing right now i’m wearing right now totally legit oh big time i i haven’t i got just got this what a week ago yeah and so i’ve worn it maybe two three times two of which we were recording not going i don’t really go out in public that much but no one’s recognized it when you go well you know the moment someone recognizes this shirt that’s going to be a level of respect that’s a little bit above the normal level of respect you got to be you got to be in the game and on the path yes sir to get on board with that also what else on there uh anyway a lot of good stuff um i was going to mention yes shorts board shorts functional i’m going to do a whole thing i might even make a video about the shorts because they’re good they’re functional and look good and they’re like double functional board shorts they are you should that sounds like a marketing campaign double phone double functional they are this week you can nonetheless get some warrior kids soap there right yes sir there you can warrior kids so go get some of that also uh subscribe to this podcast if you haven’t yet which if you haven’t yet maybe you shouldn’t maybe you should just move on with your life i don’t know leave a review whatever we also have some other podcast we have the jocko unraveling podcast which used to be called the thread it’s back it’s in its full glory we have we we re-released or we are re-releasing the threads that were removed now we have the unraveling we have some new unravelings coming right now they’re out yeah grounded podcast haven’t done one of those in a little while we owe you warrior kid podcast haven’t done one of those well we owe you but you know there’s a lot of lessons you need to hear multiple times kids so jump on them we also have a youtube channel where echo takes and he he enhances some videos especially if it’s a video that’s very short and you could easily pay attention to then he puts a bunch of enhancement in there to make sure you can watch it for two minutes and 30 seconds but when he does a three-hour video he doesn’t put any enhancements in there it’s just a plain black and white video of two heads or three heads people talking yeah and for some reason that’s the way eccles organized it which is his call you know but if you want to see what jake smith the white buffalo looks like if you want to figure out why they call him the white buffalo because he kind of represents that yeah in a visual kind of way sir oh yeah come and check it out subscribe to the youtube to the youtube channel hit like smash the like button i don’t think people i wore out that joke a few months ago what the smash the like button smash the subscribe yeah like comment and subscribe okay that’s so weird yeah there’s there’s a new one out there uh is there a new way of saying it a new trend they say hit the like button and leave a comment to help out the algorithm something along those lines because there’s like an algorithm that if it has likes and inner engagement or whatever interactions or whatever it’s sort of like oh this is a significant video so let’s sort of sort of push it or whatever okay we’re not doing this big campaign to get you to fix the algorithm you know what if you like the videos watch them subscribe to the youtube channel check it out that way echo can get in your head with his little videos yeah it won’t be me getting in your head though obviously i know i think we know shit and who said nonetheless yes youtube video version all good people are agreeing with me i think you don’t put effects on a podcast or on this particular podcast i’m not talking a massive i’m talking an occasional little easter egg rolling in maybe if something blows up over there maybe there’s smoke maybe there’s smoke all right some smoke coming out of jake’s guitar oh yeah you see what i’m saying yeah okay actually that’s there’s one thing that doesn’t need it effects it’s jake yeah didn’t need an effects today it could be cool though i don’t know jury still nonetheless yes youtube also psychological warfare it’s an album not like white buffalo album no different more like well we’ll just call it psychological warfare for now so what it is it’s a spoken word album yes spoken word yeah and those words are speaking to you on your moments of weakness so if you’re about to skip the workout but i came close to skipping workout 2 by the way yesterday that’s why you’re looking skinny while we’re doing this right now do you think everyone’s annoyed or you think it’s just me it’s very possible yeah it’s very possible everyone’s annoyed but nonetheless i think this is a a moment of value in my opinion okay i was about to skip the workout i’ve listened this i didn’t listen to psychological warfare so yesterday you know why i didn’t have to i listened to it so many times before when i really needed it that it was like it was sort of in the rolodex back there sort of plain so i listened to it virtually in my mind and you did the workout did the workout straight up that’s awesome man good job i do play that game that one that you play or we were talking about that it’s like hey if you have those moments of like oh yeah like man i really should hurry up and get to what i was gonna do you know anything any excuse you come up with your head that you’re going to skip the last part of the workout of the workout you punish yourself with extra work yeah you know for even thinking that i play that game 100 check also if you want to have a visual representation to kind of keep you squared away go to flipsidecanvas com by my brother dakota meyer making cool graphical art to hang on your wall graphical sure graphical also uh you know pick up some of jake’s music you know go download the music or order it or whatever um however you’re gonna get that music go get it man go get it jake’s out there making it happen also got some books the code the evaluation the protocols leadership strategy and tactics field manual warrior kid one two and three mikey in the dragons discipline equals freedom field manual extreme ownership and the dichotomy of leadership pick up some of those books if you like what we talk about on here also have a leadership consultancy called echelon front if you need help with leadership inside your organization go to echelonfront com if you want to get engaged in the online brigade that we have where i talk about leadership i interact you want to ask me a question you’re thinking oh i wish i could ask jack a question you can you can literally come on there and ask me a question doing two to three times a week i’m on there live interaction go to efonline com leadership is not something that you just get and now you’re good and you know what maybe you don’t maybe you want to ask me about jiu jitsu maybe you want to ask me about some relationship that you’re in whatever you want to ask me come and ask me efonline com we have the muster the next muster is in phoenix arizona september 16th and 17th then we’re gonna be in dallas texas december third and fourth go to extreme ownership com for details we’ve sold out all these things that we’ve done these ones are less seating because of social distancing so they’re going to sell out even quicker we have ef overwatch if you need leadership inside your organization you want experience leadership go to efoverwatch com where we have candidates that are proven leaders from the military that understand the principles we talk about go there and hire someone eforewatch com we also have america’s mightywarriors org that is mama lee mark lee’s mom who is on a mission to do good to help service members to help their families to help gold star families to help people that are deployed around the world if you want to get involved or donate go to america’s mightywarriors org and if you enjoy overdoing things and you want to hear my more of my conspicuous questions or you feel like you just can’t live without a little bit more of echo’s illogical inquiries that you can find us on the interwebs on twitter on instagram and on the facebook echo is that echo charles and i am at jocko willing and jake the white buffalo can be found on the interwebs at thewipebuffalo com facebook the white buffalo instagram buffalo co twitter blanco buffalo and his youtube channel is the white buffalo and thanks again to jake for coming on the show for sharing your vision your voice with us thanks for taking care of our veterans and thanks for adding a soundtrack to my life and to all the veterans out there thanks for stepping up into the madness into the darkness and thanks for not backing down into the police and law enforcement and firefighters and paramedics and emts and dispatchers and correctional officers and border patrol and secret service and all the first responders out there thanks for keeping the darkness at bay on the home front and everyone else out there the words from a white buffalo song called when i’m gone he says i feel it closing in on me i got to be all i can be in this life there ain’t no guarantee you don’t get no shit for free what does that mean it means you gotta get out there and get after it and until next time this is echo and jocko out
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