Jocko Podcast 259: When the Call Comes, You Go. w South Vietnamese Kingbee Pilot, Capt Nguyen Quy An

this is jocko podcast number 259 with me jocko willink the a1es arrived just as the team started taking incoming mortar fire godwin quickly calculated the coordinates for the mortar’s location and and the information was passed on to covey who in turn related to the a1es a laconic whistling voice came back down the line it’s crispy critter time so y’all keep your heads down within seconds the area in front of the team exploded into flame the deadly napalm coating everything in its erupting path flaming nva soldiers ran briefly toward the team before falling to the ground and agonizing death throws the hand grenades and ammunition they carried cooking off like firecrackers unfortunately the elephant grass was also set on fire the napalm had definitely slowed the nva advance but it had not stopped it covey reported that extraction shot extraction choppers were five minutes out and the team needed to move fast two gunships from the seventh air cav roared over the lz watkins put out two bright orange marker panels and the gun ships confirmed they had the team in sight as they loop back to make their first strafing run the gun ships reported that a large enemy force was moving toward the lz and they were going to attempt to discourage it as they made their run pouring m60 machine gun fire and rockets into the enemy rt lion could see the air filled with green tracers hitting the helicopters they were taking a vicious beating but they hung in there and kept pouring fire down on the nva it was an incredible show of raw guts and determination covey came on the radio to say the gunships had taken casualties and were leaking fuel oil hydraulic fluid and just about everything else so they were being forced to head home but the extraction slicks were on station rt lion looked around and could see its salvation coming toward it on its nose although they were flying at a good clip it appeared as if they were moving at an agonizingly slow speed as with the gunships before them they were taking a horrendous amount of fire one chopper was hit badly and began losing fuel after a brief confab the rescue package suddenly broke off its approach and headed back the way it had come leaving nothing but smoke and r t lions hopes for rescue behind when watkins asked covey what this meant in terms of time on the ground all hartness could do was say that he’d contact the s3 and ask for a new set of extraction assets asap in the meantime he promised to get more tactical air support over the team and do all he could to keep them alive while watkins appreciated the sentiments this did not do much to raise his spirits in his heart of hearts he felt the team’s position was precarious and likely to get much worse and quickly the nva had literally thousands of men it could throw at the team while the team had only so much ammunition and not much by way of cover what he told his team members however was that there was going to be a slight delay and reminded them to keep vigilant and be ready for an attack what he didn’t have the heart to tell them was it could be hours before another rescue attempt was made their stay at oscar 8 was far from over one of the brews suddenly signaled that nva troops were crawling toward the team through the elephant grass the news was passed on to covey who responded that he had two a1 e’s standing by one loaded with cbus and the other with rockets both aircraft had their deadly 20 millimeter cannons locked and loaded watkins told covey to bring in the cbu as fast as possible and to lay it down as close to the team as they could get in less than two minutes the team saw an a1e appear front in front of their position it’s 20 millimeter cannons roaring away it flew so low they could see the pilot turn his head to locate the team as he released his ordinance unfortunately some of the mini bombs exploded so close to rt lion that two brew received light wounds this was distressing but watkins consider it one of the acceptable prices a recon team paid to keep from being overrun by a superior force as the a1es departed a small group of nva suddenly rose up out of the grass behind the team and charged them ak-47s blazing on full automatic decetta his red communist star facing forward rose up and opened fire at near point blank range the brood joined in as other groups of nva popped up from the elephant grass and attempted assault after assault what followed was several hours of deadly cat and mouse with the mouse hunkered down in its little hole and the nva cat making paw swipe after paw swipe an attempt to claw it out or do it in an ironic situation for the team to find itself in while rt lion fended off attacks covey directed airstrike after airstrike at the nva troops the storage area the anti-aircraft guns and anything else he could draw a bead on throughout the day primary and secondary explosions followed one another as the strikes found their mark whenever the team’s fate whatever the team’s fate might turn out to be the nva were paying a hellacious price for messing with it with daylight ammunition and ideas running out it was like a true message from god when watkins heard covey report that south vietnamese air force 219 special operation squadron had one of its legendary king bees end route for once watkins spirits actually rose not that he didn’t love the living daylights out of the seventh air cav but the vietnamese of the 219th had time after time after time proven themselves to be about the most daring most imaginative most aggressive and all-around finest pilots on the face of the globe if rt lion had any chance of getting out of this hell hole a king b pilot was the one who would find it and exploit it no matter how slight the chance was or how deadly the odds that was simply what they were pledged and committed to doing day after day more good news followed when covey relayed that the lone kingby would be escorted by marine gunships from hml 360 a bad bunch of flyers that went by the code name scarface things were definitely going to rock and roll with them on station scarface enjoyed nothing more than kicking nva butt and taking names and then coming back around to kick more butt just for good measure on general principle and for the sheer fun of it however covey splashed a healthy dose of cold water on watkins by reminding him it was very nearly dark and that despite all the bombs dropped rockets fired and gun runs made the enemy was still pumping out an enormous amount of fire and still moving forward pulling rt lion out of oscar 8 was going to be as difficult and dangerous an extraction as could be imagined and they would have just one chance to pull it off if they muffed it r t lyon would be spending the night and would most likely not see the next morning sobering information indeed but watkins did not want to discourage his team so he just gave them his best grin and said let’s get ready to go in the distance watkins could hear the distinctive sound of the old nine piston sikorsky h-34 kingby chugging its way along a steady base note to the higher whop of the hueys he squinted into the twilight and when he could finally make out their dim silhouettes he flashed his strobe through the barrel of an m79 grenade launcher so as to mask it from enemy site the helicopters acknowledged having rt lion’s mark and the hueys immediately divided and made a split run one raking the team’s forward perimeter with rockets and machine gun fire and the other working its rear it was a beautiful show watkins yelled over the noise to blow all the claymores by setting off all the claymores at once he hoped to avoid having any uninvited nva join the team they went off in a deafening blast and blinding flash the little mouse had roared as the scarface duo looped around to make their second final run they confirmed there were dozens of dead and dying nva scattered around within feet of the bomb crater unfortunately they also saw more troops advancing it was down to the short strokes as the scarface gunships began their last pass the king bee tucked itself in behind them and came roaring on but rather than sat down outside the crater and have the team come to him as watkins fully expected the pilot pulled up and hovered over the crater as the team looked up in disbelief the old age 34 warbird began gently settling itself down toward the team like a mother hand about to cover her chicks thus also discreet decreasing the silhouette to enemy troops by the light of the burning elephant grass watkins was able to see into the king bees cockpit and was startled to find the co-pilot seat empty in the pilot seat was his much admired friend captain ahn a man who had saved watkins bacon on many other occasions but none quite like what he faced here at oscar eight captain ahn lowered his king b toward the team with a precision and steadiness that gave an entirely new meaning to the word cool his face was smooth and calm but there was steel in his eyes as he worked both feet and hands to maneuver the chopper as close to rt line as he could at one point watkins could have sworn that on nodded to him as if in a casual greeting the whole scene bordered on surrealistic what with the lz lit by a flickering brush fire the sounds of gunfire and explosions the smell of cordite and burned human flesh and this improbable savior hovering above as watkins had experienced before the action took on a dreamlike quality sounds faded as if someone turned down the volume the air thickened movement appeared to be in slow motion and the brain snapped individual frames that would never ever be forgotten the looks of fear or pain on their faces bodies being blasted backward a piece of someone on the ground a scrap of cloth one’s own hand clutching a weapon or shaking wildly as it tries to execute some simple well-rehearsed but now impossibly difficult task this is what war looks like to a mind under stress watkins could hear small arms fire thumping into the king bee’s body as he fully expected that at any moment it would either pull up an exit or come crashing down on them but it did neither it settled into a stationary hover its front wheels placed delicately inside the crater and there it sat an unbelievable vision a heroic portrait of an old warrior taking a pounding but refusing to falter watkins dasada and godwin begin heaving the brew into the chopper godwin followed decetta after taking an ancient anxious look at his team leader was next his bright red star pointed over his right ear as if he wasn’t quite sure whether he wanted to be going or staying finally in accordance with that time-honored tradition the 1-0’s feet were the last to leave the killing ground of oscar 8 with the door gunner and team pouring small arms fire and m79 rounds into the perimeter beyond its rim the king b lifted up and out of the crater as a last defiant gesture watkins threw a red smoke grenade onto the lz this gesture was universally understood by everyone who supported sog to signal that the team was safely out the lz clear and everyone else was free to pound the living daylights out of it but our t-line was not home free not yet at least anti-aircraft rounds were bursting around them like a world war ii akkack fire captain ahn was dipping and juking in an effort to judge the dodge that bursts and make himself harder to track he still looked calm cool and collected as if he were making a routine flight for these guys fought watkins maybe this was a routine flight when the king b touched down a caisson dasada godwin and the grinning door gunner walked around poking their fingers into bullet holes and counting them but they soon gave up there were too many and besides it was just too unsettling unsettling to contemplate what might have been watkins learned later that captain ahn had chosen to fly solo in the oscar 8 because he knew exactly how dangerous this mission was he’d lost king bees there before and was determined not to risk more lives than necessary he figured if the gods ordained that his ship go down while trying to save rt lion it would just be him and the door gunner it seemed like a simple and perfectly logical decision no big deal incredibly everyone who participated in the mission was alive and well the men of rt lion were home seasoned veterans of oscar eight it had indeed been their time after all so that is that is a whole different kind of heroism because look when you’re on the ground in many cases you don’t even have a choice but to be a hero you either step up or you die but for these pilots men like captain ahn they don’t really have to do anything heroic they could easily say that the landing zone’s too hot or they’ve already been shot or they’re low on fuel or whatever but they’re safe in their aircraft and they see the hell that is going on and they see the hell that they are going into bullets and rockets and anti-aircraft and they go anyway they go anyway men like captain nguyen ki ahn a pilot in the south vietnamese air force who flew countless missions insanely dangerous missions in support of american and south vietnamese sog teams he’s a recipient of the silver star and the distinguished flying cross and it is an absolute honor to have captain ahn with us here to talk about his experiencing fighting in vietnam laos and cambodia captain on it’s an absolute honor to have you here thank you and i guess also joining us once again is john striker meyer tilt special forces member of sog who has been on this podcast before couple times a couple times 180 181 182 186 with the frenchman 247 248 and the last one with cowboy con cowboy 258 back again thank you so much and and when you first came on after the first couple times people started asking almost immediately to if if i could find a king b pilot and i know as soon as you know you very quickly mentioned captain ahn always number one king b for sure thank you so so uh on tell us about what it was like growing up where did you grow up uh i was grow up at hanoi north of vietnam and uh my father decided to move the family to the south in 1954 now was that after after the french got beat yeah so did your father kind of recognize that bad things could happen yes and what what did your father do for a living did you mean before after 55 after 54 oh here’s the uh some kind of business to cut the lumber like a lumberjack yeah okay and he he he hired people to do it but he organized the the office and after 54 we moved down to the south and he worked for uh one of the uh french company oh he worked for a french company yeah okay after fortune 54 and we moved to the south okay and what did you do how old were you when you moved to the south oh i was fifth uh 11 11 years old yeah and my my my father’s and myself and my brother my younger brother at that time he was 10 and uh to fly to the uh with one of the friends to the south now did you have any understanding of what was happening with the communists in north vietnam did you have any understanding of that yet oh but uh before we go to uh we uh we went to the south then i remember i at night my i sleep next to my my father and he was a criticism i keep criticizing what she mean because my uh elder oldest brother was killed in uh 45 when he was 17 okay yeah by the communists by the communists yeah so once you got down to south vietnam now you’re 11 years old and what it what did you did you were you just going to school yes i did and since the uh we move around all the time from hanoi to haifang and then go to the south and uh i myself and my brother next to me we don’t try to make it too great in one year you try to make what in one year too great okay were you able to do it yeah okay we did nice nice and uh uh in uh city uh 62 62 yeah i joined the air force so my uh my brother he got the scholarship from usam and he went here too so 1962 is when you joined the air force yes and and um once you joined the air force did you know you were going to be a pilot yes okay but uh i didn’t believe it i would be because i couldn’t uh ride the car i couldn’t ride air uh give me a train a course if an airplane a bus because every time i got in the car my stomach was like this guy can’t come up in my mouth truck sick train sick every single he would get yeah that’s not fun but eventually you were able to get over that yes the first time my uh ip he uh demonstrated the uh um as in quit all the oral translation and oh and i i i feel my my stomachs come up and i said oh my god how can fry but later on i get used with it right and i like it i know that they have something for american pilots and i don’t know if they made you do this they have something where if you get air sickness they have something i think it’s in texas it’s called spin and puke and they basically put you in this machine every day and it spins you around and makes you sick until you get used to it really yep oh yep so i guess you didn’t do that no you didn’t have to go to the spin and puke one auto rotation helped yeah so how long were you in the air force before you started training to become a pilot when i joined in the air force in late 62 when and formerly it was on january 1st of 63 okay and i was have the basic military training in fall and also the esl for six months and in in july 63 i was sent here to get attorney so you came to america yeah and got the uh esl again training in australia yeah in san antonio okay yeah so you so you go to san antonio to first to learn how to speak english oh in uh in vietnam oh okay when when i uh get the military military training and the esl english training for six months and then when i went to uh to the central new texas of our another four months for uh esl english language after that i went to uh four waters in texas okay and and what was five waters for for the uh primary uh helicopter training okay it’s the uh s20 uh 23 the s23 chopper h23 chomper small another that’s like the uh that’s like the bubble canopy right similar to that yeah different variation yeah the old one and and then so how long did you spend in america training to fly uh from uh from the uh uh first training i uh get the uh advanced training on the asus 23 too and then after i finished it i went to alabama to get the training on the uh x-34 the king bee me and now what was your first impression of the king bee well it was and when i finish the training on the age 34 uh they i was transferred to get there i got the training on the highway at that time they only have the at the school they only have the a model it’s a weird this is a small one the a model huey yeah what did you like better what did you like better the huey or the king bee it’s kidding me because they uh they gave me help about well at that time thousand fifty hundred hospital okay but the heatwave a model have only nine hundred horsepower but the huey is a lot smaller than the king b yes it is smaller and uh but did you feel like you had more power in the king b no no because it’s too easy too easy to fly right what’s that one because on the age 34 i got total about 10 hours how many hours 100 hours 100 hours wow total and but on the way i only get the 900 hours okay and the pilot the captain pilot who checked my uh check me he said okay you stick you can stay home you don’t need to fly anymore you stay home so like he can have more time to take other people got it other people didn’t learn as quickly as he did got it so i was off for one weekend this week so then so is that is that what you got trained in you completed all that training yeah um and then it was going back to vietnam yes in uh 64 about around around july 64 so in 64 america’s there but not super heavy engaged in combat operations yet um what was it like when you got back were you were you starting to anticipate were you was it starting to seem like there was going to be a a broader war being fought there don’t forget in june of 1964 uh roger dolan earned the first medal of honor at a green berea camp so there were there were major battles at the a camps at that level and so and of course the king bees even then we’re supporting some of the acans so that was the beginning of that war at a serious level and yes the we didn’t get the american troops involved to hydrant valley but they began to build up when the marines came into da nang so he was all part of that what year did the marines come into da nang there was 64 i think yeah just forced people yeah because it’s always uh i drank in 65 that sort of in my mind marks the beginning of like heavy american combat operations yes that’s a formal battle between american first cab right and the nva so but yeah definitely prior to that it was advisors in there working by with and through the locals right and and yeah um so you’re seeing all that happen you’re seeing that start to unfold were you at what point did you start flying the king bees in support of special operations when i first came back from uh from the u s training i i was assigned to a 217 squad and the 2 17 squad first station at saigon and in 60 late 65 it was a move to canter in the south and uh in uh february 1966 i i i was assigned to the 83rd group this is the group that combined face swing and helicopter to fight the secret mission and later on the helicopter through a group become a 219 but the group of the 80 at the helicopter group in 83 uh space group have only four helicopters yeah but when we become became the 219 we have 24 of them did you know what you were getting into yeah with those kinds of course he’s very modest the first two years basically from from uh when he went to that first to 217th the commander of that unit didn’t like north vietnamese so he was only a co-pilot but he fly co-pilot he get very bored he wants to get more action so he finally gets to be quest then he goes and gets the action so once you once you started uh doing that what was what was that like what was it what was it like to start going out on those operations where there was all this incredible intensity on the ground oh i think he’s more excited than in the normal squadron yeah i’d say it’s probably more exciting than a normal squadron what was it what was the um what was the operational pace like how often were you getting called to fly what would happen would you be on standby waiting to go extract people would you sit and plan with the guys from sog so you all were working together how did all that how did all that work everything worked like that because they had he had a rotation like one week they would be on assignment one week they’d be training and another week they’d be getting ready and then in one week or so they’d be on the side they could be up at food by yeah then they go down the contour wherever the most depending on the weather what missions were up so would would sog ground guys go and you know would you sit down and say okay here’s what we’re going to insert here we go up order and they would be in for their briefing prior to launch yeah before that we went out to the operation that we have the briefing what we are going to do to do and where we are going to work but since i was so familiar with the whole whole board from from here saying down to placo mamitot the whole world around the around i don’t need to bring map you were that familiar with it yeah and here’s another king during those briefings when they’re there as a 1-0 the king bees as we went further into the war their briefing would say we found uh 23 mike mike here 37 mike mike anti-aircraft weaponry in those targets so they would tell the covey and their expertise would be another bonus that we had in terms of our briefing where not to fly and that’s one of the briefing parts so it’s like we hear what the mission was get that from s3 but we’d always hear from them then the covey after that oh yeah so you’d be flying basically some kind of combat mission every day or two days three days at the most or sometime in one day yeah i threw three missions each mission lasts about less than two hours yeah see that’s what’s cool about being a pilot right two hours you know two hours and you’re done if you live they come home yeah if you have to come home you’re doing all right you’re back eating good chow and drinking a cold beer indeed uh so so how long did it take before you finally ended up getting shot down ooh like when did i know you ended up getting shot down how long were you flying for before you got shot down for the first time over four years time let’s see the first time some time in 67 or 66 i don’t remember because i was starting up one time four times and you shut down four times yeah and uh i don’t believe i don’t even remember which day was that except the last time i lost my hand remember that yeah the first time you got shot you don’t really remember what happened the first time you got shot down oh uh the first time i was shut down was in south of the maple mountain and in the morning the we supposed to take the the platoon to make the security line south of the uh mountain and marble mountain right where fob4 was so this is an in-country mission and they’re picking up a battalion to put it on the south side of marble mount because fob4 was on the north side but and they were having some issues they put the battalion out there for security purposes they’re working along with the marines at that point and so seven o’clock in the morning south vietnam gets shot down yeah yeah it’s a i went now at six o’clock and uh this is the uh moderati uh the two and uh when the second king made the land and he said that he kept uh he caught the graphite and i told him remember which way and i come back to my mountain pick up more people and then land there again and ask him which uh which direction is that he said two o’clock and i take up and have to two across his direction and i saw a line of people was moving with the holy holy woman and she’s a kid and whispered you remember the two musketeers they carry yeah and i i totally the crew recruiting only people civilian people don’t don’t shoot and as as long as i finish it i heard a long fire from that from that life from that people from those people and the engine just quit and i make i make a class do on a rice paddy and the uh the third shopper of them that came down to uh pick me up and bring me here my neck to learning and at nine o’clock i and we took that shot by the mechanics they couldn’t find any round so they keep asking me tell or tell them to tell them what happened what will happen if we couldn’t find the any uh route then it must be the technical problem and i said yes i did yeah i i i heard it around i already did fire and later in the afternoon one of the mechanics ship he was he opened the front door in front of the uh of the engine and he looked around and suddenly he he saw the uh the the uh the lid the cap of the uh magneto there was a hole in there oh so that was it and uh he was wondering why this is there is a hole in here why did the the people didn’t change it so he just called the mechanic and opened it oh my my bullet was in there and that much hardly ignited wow yeah so you would go back out and you went back out and recovered that aircraft yeah would you tie straps onto it and bring it back or how would you do it i i i go we’ll go down and we had to uh show them how to to do brick and mortar down the aircraft bike would you bring it back with another helicopter yeah just tie it on and bring it back and then start working on it did you feel jinxed going back in that aircraft again or did you feel lucky you already got shot down you let you made it you know when uh when i i uh in the rice paddy uh i um i jumped out of the shop and grabbed the uh the m3 the old one the world war ii my machine gun and my cruise ship bringing another carry the uh armor box and uh my uh my co-pi he ran along with me when i when i picked up the inventory i looked back and i saw that the the uh the water on the rice valley was swell exactly because in the from the day they were shooting from the village oh yeah still and i ran to the border of the rice paddy and put it again on put the machine gunner on and load it and i shot it i got idiot work all these cans i shoot one one round in a time yeah those old those little 30 calibers were not the most reliable after after the first 30 years of combat jeez i know there’s another another story where you got shot down again um after and the day before kingby had been shot down and then you went into what what happened on that operation uh is that uh operation the um the day the day before we went out and to uh resupply and bring the wound from the uh from the team and i land and pick up some and we surprised them but the second one was held down by the rpc and it was about 5 00 p m and when i saw it and uh i came back to go to draw and uh no we we lost two kimberly at that time yeah talking me on the previous day and i decided nothing how did you feel about going on an operation when there was two king bees shot down the day before and now you have to go back in there what did that feel like um i think that we have we need to bring the uh all of my friend back yeah and uh when i ran to uh on uh at the doctor uh the uh the radio man from the camp he went out he said order from saigon not to land anymore and he lowered his fire but the last decision is yours and i said oh i’m going to go in again and i asked kobe and the two friendship and my number three number four came back i will go in again and uh when uh yeah i i tell them just uh follow me and uh when we were about five kilometers from the lg then you people just keep operating and i will go down by myself and i wait until seven o’clock at seven p m it’s dark and uh i say let’s go and i turn around on my line they lied even even the uh the that’s more the light you turn them off turn them all off very very useful very faint hard to see and because anyway for for a long time flying i can listen to the engine and how i know how much it did it was working and how much how how many rpm it is running i can listen it and when you were about five grounders from the lc i turn up the light and tell other people to the arbit wait for me and i asked the kobe do you see me and he said that yes so i turn up the engine and go down would now do another to the top of the tree recovery and ask him again do you still see me i said yes okay guys and you gotta terminate straight line left live and the audio ahead and make a 360 with a 1990 nautical mile make a 360 degree to uh to land on the lg so so the they were walking you in and telling them exactly where to go guiding you in yeah at night at treetop in the jungle this is and there’s mountains here yeah it’s not like we’re flying in cambodia where it’s flat he’s flying over the hills too just and that’s just part of this one another day with a king bee pilot at night with the lights out and he got the everybody out and the next day i came in again and at uh 10 am and when i was taking off and i heard a big brush and the the chopper started to make up because the engine was lost they had the blaster broke up there and blew off the engine oh wait what blew up the engine yeah the fire it was it was hit by the rpg okay right move to to keep the the jumper to stick to the side of the hill and still and start a little week load the left side down to so it can hold onto the side of the heel and i start with your mouth and i say that um the call by when i came out i could cope with my copy he he was on my left eye as i said run so so let me make sure i get this you’re you’re the aircraft gets hit with an rpg yeah the engine dies the engine came off oh the engine came off yeah it blew off the engine okay and so that’s why the chopper knows how now the chopper goes nose up yeah you’re going to crash land and you have to do it on a hillside yeah and so you had to kind of maneuver the helicopter to be at an angle yeah so it won’t be rolled out of the hill and then so you land it basically you are able to crash land it and then you look at your co-pilot and say run and then we went uphill okay you designed the team and then so then you joined the saag team on the ground yes did you carry the amps the m30 again for good luck yeah no at that time we already have m60 yeah okay so you have you got the m60 off of it yeah but uh so then what happened when you joined up with the saag team the south team because of the uh oh the m16 and m18 was all over the uh the dish and i grabbed one of them now at first i yeah either one of them tried to shoot and wherever the rpg come from but they it didn’t work because they shot all of them and they they they may not both yeah i think that the uh the girl was too dry oh the gun was too dry yeah i couldn’t shoot anymore okay so now you’re in a perimeter i guess yeah with your team with the team they’re wounded yeah and this is a boon to people he had picked up what team was this i don’t know sure sell a cartoon this is before my time even like 67 i think so uh so i went around and and found another uh m79 gun and the grenade launcher two bikes on it so i just okay you shoot me now i’ll be back to you i should i should i am the two bike i will uh m-79 and uh i start shooting from 50 meters away from us to 200 meters away from us how long were you guys on the ground for before you got extracted oh and when i uh after after i shot the honor the grenade i called it kobe and he said are you still alive yeah and i found my rescue panel because he he was on the sky and he saw it he said that he saw the the frame the line of frame go and hit my chopper and myself i spoke in the the front nose i spoke and he thought that i was not there but when he was lucky and he said oh you’re still alive and i say yeah but don’t plan anymore we have to move okay yeah so you hear if that had been a ue they’re dead everybody’s dead but that’s a king bee yeah the uae and the rpg hit the engine and blew it out which is a nine cylinder world war ii engine from the b-17 but it’s blew it out of the aircraft and he still was able to talk about it and walk away from it yeah and crash land that thing like on top of that on a sideways on a hill yeah so so was the uh did the other aircraft the other king b then land and pick you guys up quickly or were you out there for a while no we have to we have to run uh away from the lc with the with the team from 10 a m to 4 p m before i was speaking so much for the 2-hour mission and you’re getting shot up by the nva the whole time yeah many times and he’s learning how to shoot the m79 in between the m16 and the m60 whatever rounds he has on the job training in laos so then you come back from that mission and then take a shower get ready and go brief another mission that’s what you guys did no after taking on the mission that i was sat down i went back to uh they brought me back to a doctor and at that time on my commander my squad the man and the whole staff of the squad and came down to uh nectar to see what happened they couldn’t believe you’re still alive and yeah and when i first when i first seen my uh my swan command i said that my friend needs to have one week to uh on the verification to relax did he give it to you yeah he said okay so all you had to do was take a rpg hit have your engine blown out crash land and do a six-hour gun fight with the nva to get a week’s vacation i don’t know that seems like a rough tour but the the previous day one of the jobs also got him by the rpg and the co-pilot got killed and the pilot and the and the mechanic and the decreasing i got birthday but but uh like i bought them home yeah and the before the um the next day before i left the lc i ran back to the uh the glass landing of the uh the chopper that went down before yes the previous day and try to look for something the if it can remain of the co-pilot of the previous day but i couldn’t find any the whole thing was white ass because the aircraft was the aluminum oh so it just burned i used this bird um that that wasn’t your last time getting shot down no what about your toe tail rote tail rotor getting shot off oh tail rotator cable um it was in laos and i was taken off and um suddenly i feel somebody hit the body on my my foot on my feet i mean i mean and i asked my uh cruise ship what’s happening with the terrorist and he he checked along and he said he got in the tailbone and said that the cable the control cable on the table with the shutdown shut off and so because when i feel the uh it hit the the somebody or something something hit but the apparel i it is a chopper when i was taking off this the chamber started to turn right because we have we don’t have the control of the tail move this cycle to the left and reduce the power and i accept i accept to be shot with the other with all around rather than glass landing so i keep taking off with the 60 knots and 560 knots a little bit sideway and back from away from laos to and i called my uh my my they are giving me go ahead and land first and prepare for the only i think i extinguished and because i i have to make a class and i might make a long big traffic and land make a rainy landing when the 10 wheeled touchdown i told him i go back get up the power and he got off the power and the but before before i tested him i told the uh my cruise ship tell the the team nine of them in the shop tell the team when i slow down the chapter and tell them to jump out the nine-man team tell them do not do them out not to remain because we might make a class and and finally the the chopper turn right and stop when i look down like no no them jump out if they’re still in the jumper and did any of the nine members of the team get wounded one guy was wounded no nobody’s wounded but yet they shot the rotor the the cable to the rotor yeah that’s crazy and the aircraft between the weight and the way he adjusted the cycling stick yeah he flew back sideways and decreased his speed it’s like i never heard that story this is another one of those oh my god stories just another day flying king beast with captain on now you know why we say number one pilot i tell you one thing if at that time we have the uh good ship yes but to cover ourselves then we can make a lot of things is that right yeah because we you know that uh when you go after this operation the fueling and the thinking of the enemy what they are now thinking we can guess but the american you couldn’t guess what they are doing what they are going to do so you’re saying that the american the americans we would do random things but the enemy you kind of knew what they were going to do they followed patterns we can guess most of them wow the americans just go out and they can receive another grandfather somewhere and this would suppress it try to suppress it but for us we can guess where they are going to put again or what they are going to plan because sometimes when uh one time i was shot i was taking off from the aussie and the uh i heard heavy heavy girlfriend from up on the right side and i look back and i saw the nba sitting behind the uh 50 caliber and shooting at me less than 100 years and uh so i i dive down to the bamboo top and make the zigzag fly but i am i escaped but the second game they came in and they made it they couldn’t give me uh i got shut down shut down and caught fire wow it’s too close less than 100 yeah um another one uh tilt was telling me about was you you got something hit and you got hit by something it almost knocked you out of your seat yes and there was a like a two inch hole in the back of the king b what was that we couldn’t find any foul we couldn’t find the dda around and i don’t know what what kind of uh what kind of uh gunnery was that but uh at that time i was taking off from the aussie in laos and suddenly just like some somebody hit me with a hammer in the back and hit me forward i so i i use my left hand left left knee to hold this uh collective and keep trying and use my left hand to check my back and i said oh it’s still dry i mean i still okay no blood no bread and when i got home the uh i checked that one was wrong and i saw the at the back of the backseat the back of my seat the holes were bigger than this one did you guys was there any armor at all on the king b no no armor just aluminum aluminum that’s all can’t stop anything no i said oh yeah one there is one uh ammo plate underneath the engine underneath the engine they had an armor 18 inches or 18 inches wide it would wrap up on the sides underneath the engine that’s about the only armor i’m aware of yeah yeah what’d you wear did you wear did you wear a flak vest or anything no no no point no they have really cool king b flight flight just a flight suit overalls have their king being signals on them and they have their holster on their hip like a cowboy they were really good looking uniforms i like the black was best how many operations do you think you flew let’s calculate i got four thousand dollars and minus one thousand now for lysin or in the other other thing and so three thousand three thousand three thousand divided to two hours for each mission so fifteen hundred or so missions yeah give or take you take a hundred these are all sod missions yeah how often how often would you have enemy contact on the ground when you went in usually they when i came in to insert the team and i saw something one this is like one time when i went to the lg and i saw the tail foot line on the ld and the team was getting off and said come back back back and they come back one time and then i saw it and i did i brought them back right away but most of the time when we got shot when we take home from the aussie when the yeah for the extraction yeah so most of the time you could get in well you you would just pull the team out almost immediately if you guys could come right out yeah if we were compromised and we just try to get it back go out if we could what percentage do you think you guys were compromised on the insert probably a lot more than we realized because they have the lz watchers and they would like to get us on the ground first particularly by the end of 68 because they had the uh hunter killer teams that were out there their main mission was to find us yeah i would think they would want to wait until you inserted right see you insert let the helicopters leave and then roll you up there you go so the insert usually good what could would go well unless there are days like we had that time in november when we get shot out of the primary secondary and the author and the king bees would go in bing bing bing go have lunch they would refuel have a little lunch here’s another target go back and do it again and often they would come back with bullet holes because we literally got shot out they if there’s enemy activity there we wouldn’t go you know you’re a compromise you want to try at least get on the ground and get get it going with the mission and we had several days like that back to back to back and the king piece got beat up but firstly another got shot down and the sikorsky is just a beat that’s just a oh that’s just a horse of a aircraft yeah it only had one door but it had the windows so whenever we’re distracted our the first man in the chopper would go to the to the left window you mean the port side port that’s what i meant i always get the port confused with the starboard unless i’m drinking pork and that’s what you’re gonna have it’s an army man right there indeed the left side yes is the bulkhead secure the bulkhead is secure there you go you’re all baby and no and then right here we could interject um sometimes they would be in the air and there would be an emergency call for any helicopter which he did in august of 1969 i forget what you were on but this is that mission with scarface and scarface was making a gun run and they were working in conjunction with the uh the 101st airborne on their air mobile units and there was a like a river stream and they were making a gun run so the 101st had gone down with the cobra they had cobras in scarface came in with a regular gunship got hit as it went down it flipped over to the door the crew members came out it crashed upside down they put out an emergency call on was there he responds to the call the gunships went down and they made a gun run on each side of the down upside down scarface he followed him right in and he picked up the two to the crew members he picked up it was either no i didn’t pick up the i just spotted them you spotted them first because i i i threw along the stream to see what uh if i i cannot find any people and i spot two of them standing on the big ground like this this table and i called them let them know and then i keep so they they came down to pick them up and i kept crying down the stream to look at other people and i couldn’t find it anymore i come back i came back to the the down hilly upside down and i couldn’t see anywhere you couldn’t see inside the cabin or a carpet so i use my right wheel to turn it back hmm you flipped over the huey well under enemy fire and uh i checked the giants there was nobody in there so i tell them that i couldn’t find anymore then you have your crew chief hang out the door yeah and then he was able to say that he saw people in the pilot and the co-pilot because this day there’s two those are the two uh only two scarface marines aviators that are still listed as m i a i think it was the pilot and and the crew chief because the co-pilot got out and they were able to rescue those two and uh and the bubble of the front of the ue where he put his you know the strut put the wheel in and lifted up the helicopter his crew chief goes and hangs out all while under enemy fire so in august 2000 scarface honored on at a banquet in san diego to thank him for that heroic mission and they helped get your award for admission correct was that part of that no yet not yet but that was one mission where he was just flying and they had to call for help he responded to help scarface because scarface and 100 first had protected king bees all the time and you got shot up on that one too it wasn’t like we’re just another day in the park he’s helping the marines trying to find those aviators and i’m not sure how many hits he got but just the fact to go down the stream put the strut underneath the front nose it had been knocked out and lifted up to give them a status report another day with the kingpiece amazing yeah that you know uh the the reputation you guys had must have been just i mean that opening that i read from this like yes it’s just epic you know to hear the the the relief from watkins and here’s who it is like okay now we got a chance yeah and it now that was always our golden our golden moment you’re on the ground you’re in a firefight and they say the king bees are coming it’s like thank god for the king bees on that mission when you decide hey you know what i’m not gonna bring a co-pilot i’m not gonna bring a crew chief i’m just gonna bring me and the gunner that’s it that seems like uh that seems like a kind of crazy decision to make no because we we when i know that the situation was too bad and we have to go go out as fast as we can so we can bring them home as fast as you can meaning it would have taken time to round up the co-pilot no if one time when we was uh they they were putting water in in the nectar and i saw i saw the the the smoke came out from me again on the other side of the hill and i saw i am i run into my shop and climb up and crank it up and when i said taking off and it grew back up on it was late and he subscribed so you didn’t care if you had a co-pilot or not no i did well that’s just like that mission later in the book with the chapter 20 when they had the night bright light yeah where the hatchet force had been in they had severe casualties they had all been exfiltrated out the last helicopter went in was again a uae went in on strings to pick up the team leader from the hatchet forest they had a sergeant that stayed back and the couple indigenous troops and the chopper got shot down crashed and then that night they asked to go in this is october 69 and lynn black went in and on took them out again with no crew they took him out at night found the lz and thought they thought they were going to have to repel him but somehow he’s able to find an area big enough to get the king being it went down lynn black got in picked up the picked up the team member had a broken back and the other survivors and then he came back again at night picked up the team i think this time they had full mountain strings and then they pulled them out was there anyone else that could that could fly at night like you could yes was it your eyesight was it just the amount of hours that you had in the helicopter oh yeah you can see you know that at that time the thing be they we only have the uh i see the c model that we got from the army have the adf vhf and fm but the d model we got from the uh marine have protected uhf vsf fm but since the titan and the vsf we don’t use it often we almost never use it and it’s too heavy and it was installed in the tailbone and it makes itself a heavy table heavy so i remove a lot of them extra radio is out yeah we don’t use it we only need the uh um uhf and the uh that’s all and this leads me to a quick sidebar i don’t know this is you or not but we had in 68 the king bees had the marines wanted to race the king bees to fu buy so they had i mean just a race a race race they had their age 34 oh no no this is just going from da nang from the air base and the king bees go we’ll race you too king bees versus what versus the marine corps h-34s they still have some h34s oh so it’s just it’s king b versus king b yeah but it’s king b versus marine corps got it with all the radios so the marines had to go around high van pass and go over to south china sea king bees fly up and over bing they get the flu by win 100 oh that was you enough but that was one of our favorite kingby stories the frenchman always told that one man and then who’s your maintenance cruise oh yeah was it was it vietnamese yes air force they were india they are in vietnamese air force and uh later on we have the uh let’s see what what was that i said they forget l-o-i-l-o-d the uh this is a american company oh american company yeah they their their main job is only to to replace the uh part i said i supposed to change the tail and the tail rotor they bring the whole the whole set and put it on this is changing but i don’t trust them you know why why because one time after they uh changed the uh the tail roses and after i checked everything i started to clean up the uh sharpen paint of the engine and the choppers started jumping up up and down up and down and i just split up the uh needle and uh cut up the engine and the the shuffle will stick like this and it stuck the nose come up and i go down and check look around check check and check the tail oh my god guys only only one more other three braids and remain he’s supposed to have that four braids not there a tail ruler was m i a that could ruin your day yeah we had a um uh in vietnam for the seals in vietnam they they had a similar relationship that the sog guys had with the kimbees with the with the sea wolves and they had to kind of improvise improvise and their maintenance they were very proud of and and very proud of their maintenance crews because their maintenance crews would keep those aircraft running and they would do whatever they had to do and rob cheat and steal to they were surrounded that’s right that’s right and they were already you know using birds that had i forget they scrounged up the aircraft themselves from somewhere they were kind of leftover aircraft and and so the it wasn’t just the the pilots and the gunners and then on top of that these incredibly hard-working you know sailors in the navy that were making those birds able to fly on a moment’s notice but it’s just it’s a very similar relationship for the saw guys and the king bee pilots it as it is for the seals and the and the sea wolf guys oh they’re of legend absolutely yeah outstanding yeah and and just the um it’s a similar you know the the attitude you know what you said khan or on earlier when i asked you you know what what are you thinking about when you need to go back into a spot where two king bees have already shot down i’ve been shot down and your response was i want to get my friends out that’s it that’s that’s that’s the esprit de corps that is just unmatched you know and and having that relationship with and just that that warrior brotherhood is and then there’s a very human side like there’s a few times after we get pulled out right at last light and we go up to the king bee pass say hey come on i’ll buy you a drink and then captain tim would say i’m going home to my family or captain tuang no thank you but i’m gonna go home on family i’ll be back tomorrow you buy me drinks tomorrow and they come back and had time to get in the clubhouse have a drink before we go on the next mission that’s just amazing so you had this whole yeah that’s crazy that dichotomy yeah they’re with their they’re flying home to their family geez and they always came for us they never you know we never had them say no for us any of our teams yeah no that’s that’s definitely something to think about because americans we are always fighting in someone else’s country right we don’t go home we go on deployment that’s it you know there’s no family were you married during this time or were you did you have kids during this time did you have your your brother yeah i i i i married in 1969 and i don’t remember if i would shut down before it or after i don’t remember excited except that last time and you must remember uh you know going on a mission getting your aircraft shot up and then going home to your wife and saying hi honey i’m home yep every time i the i was shocked and uh but they didn’t i think most of them many times they missed me yeah one time i fell back from uh mid to quantity the weather was very bad and we flew low low about 300 feet along the hillside and suddenly this this somebody fired a long line of i can’t crack it right on my at my ear and i i look like that i look up hill and i saw a lot of nva you know in the civil war yeah the front lines the seat the second line the knee and the turret lines they stand just like that and they were on the hill and they’re shooting at me and and i i i told my cruise ship your back should make you like and i saw the uh yes they know the drought they captured the whole being in front of the front line of them i don’t know if they hit they hit any of them or not but because i was the last one in the fly at that time and so i just keep trying to make the quality and back to quality i i got i found 49 holes he’s flying from caisson where we had fub3 he would pick up teams and launch for targets from kson and of course when you flew into caisson this is during the the offensive so you know that was so he flies from that hot zone flying to quang tree which is quote a secure base and in route there’s three lines of nva just practicing target hit them 49 times yeah 49 rounds what happened um the last time you got shot down the last pass the last time because i was in in budap yeah north of my midway and i inserted the team and came back when they came back just like when you are when you are in service for a long time or in combat for a long time you have some feeling i would say six failing and i feel something wrong on the ground you’re now in the very jungle so i from 1500 feet i go down to check it at about 500 feet they start to shoot at me and this is this when you’re trying to extract them or is this during the insert on dropping off he’s coming back from an okay so after you drop them off you’re halfway home yeah and you decide you’re gonna go look on the ground yeah and you start getting instinct yeah and i i got mad and i said a big zigzag fly and they skip the line on fire and uh i got mad i said that this is my land and i take care of it or why you care you’re there to shoot at me so i come back and shoot and i got hit again and the shopper caught fire the round hit the fuel tank and then the fuel ignites and the fire comes from the fuel tank into the cabin he’s at 500 feet trying to keep the aircraft stable to land while on fire and i was on top of the frame the frame is coming from the uh came up from the cabin to the carpet and i if i use it i land right at the right or right under somewhere around there it is it will be okay but uh i don’t want it to be get caught so i keep fighting back to uh buddha so so your plane’s on so you’re your helicopter’s on fire i’m fine you could crack you could land right but you don’t want to get caught no because that’s going to be horror and i tried to get back to a buddha and the frame could help the flame keep keep burning and one time it was so hard that i let i left all of the control the collective and cyclic i love it i keep my my hand and my at my chest when i saw the when i left the cyclic then the shop started to knife down and i i saw the route coming up and uh i said i just tell thing in my head that it’s on it’s over but when it comes close to the treetop the the instinct of uh survival pushed me to grab the cyclic pulleyback and he said the chaplain was diving down and then suddenly when i pulled the cycling back so so hard and it come up i thought that the main road that would come off but he didn’t and i said i saw it and i labeled it and so this helps dive in again so it it’s a little like it try like a thin line in the sky and finally i make a glass landing in uh in the open area so the the the in the handles were so hot that you couldn’t hold on to them no but then at the last minute survival instinct yeah you knew what you had to do in order to get some kind of a landing so you just grabbed those and when i saw the algae it was flying at the 80 80 nautical mile and it was 90 not go by and i moved the cycle to the right and pushed the right pillow on the way down and so the the shuffle at the 90 north of my make a 360 degree so quickly that i started to carry the tail boom came off but they didn’t and they started to settle down and now and i touched down very smooth and but it still starts still running so he hit the tree and on the wheel came off the blade came off and when he stopped it i am i grabbed the seatbelt lock and i pulled it but instead when i can pull it my finger open and for three times i use my left hand on my left elbow to hit the buckle and release the lock and i grab the handle of the window because when i make it is to run and they had the window rental move over and close it so i grabbed the handle of the window pull it back but it happened i like the on the seat belt i grab it but the finger open but couldn’t hold the handle because the skin was burning so i used my shoulder to hit the window and i broke the window out i saw from knee down they honor the material which came off with burnout except the zippers and the uh the pro is still burning so i wrote down on the glass wet grass and to put it out and after it was off i couldn’t stand up my crew chip went by and grabbed me up and made me uh guide me to the rescue shop the number three number three kingdom so then you get on the number three king bee they get you out of there and you obviously you go straight to the hospital they they brought me back to the middle of the hospital it was a military hospital in saigon and i stayed there for it until 11 am to next morning next morning the uh one king one pilot with king bay pilot from uh danae freeman with with the american advice brought me to turkey hospital and that where i stayed for eight months and what was that process like those next eight months oh they uh amputated my uh hand and uh make a sheet spin clamp on my leg because of my life when i was in the hospital and they uh today the the doctor not to smith he amputated my hand i i i asked him how about my leg he said oh he didn’t know until after the after the operation they amputate both your hands at the same time yes and then what was the what was the plan from there what happened after that after that i go back and for a paper for eight months nobody treat them on the mentionment about four or five months but after that i will make it forward through the years for two days for the doctor to try to check it and after that after all the treatment they sent me back to uh the vietnamese hospital and at some point i know you had a brother that was a ae1 pilot right he’s a a1 pilot yeah and what happened with him he was on the 95 mission and it was missing it’s all right we know 95 businesses were across the fence also right no no he was missing about around about 30 kilometers not of now attending and then what was it like when the when the war started to kind of wind down for you know america leaving and the communists are going to take over what was that what was that like for you um at the end of april april 95 yeah one was a king republic came to us to see me and my he was my co-founder this is in april of 1995 1975 oh 1975 okay yeah i got it and uh he asked me what we are going to do and i say i really don’t know what to do now is everything mess up did you i mean obviously did you feel like the when the communists took over that you were just doomed because clearly you were a veteran that had fought for south vietnam it seems like you would you you must have felt like you would be doomed if they completed the takeover of vietnam no i don’t think so no the uh the thing is that we we were desperate because we lost the world as well and on the uh let’s see april 30 1975 i was on board one of the ship i still remember the uh the name the sea challenger and when i heard the uh it was off uh of uh so you were on an american ship i don’t know which is the challenger yeah sea challenger and uh when i heard the uh announcement of a surrender from general ming oh my my tears just kind of came out and i want to do something over the wall but uh when i look back and i see my toolkit and he stopped me he stole me from jumping out so then what happened i mean now you’ve got your two kids yeah you’re you’re in vietnam the south has surrendered what what what happened then we go back to uh go back home and then wait for what happened and in uh surul yeah in july 6th i just was 75 i was in they put me in the re-education camp in a re-education camp yeah what was that experience like jesus please just talk about uh propaganda yeah propaganda that’s all and the thing is that the people who they want to they want us to go to class every day and we have to go to class every day they keep talking but the guy who tell to do that is this level of knowledge oh my god this is likely maybe welcome class to already grade three so you’re being re-educated by a third third grader yeah by the third grade and they keep and all of them talking the same way just like the machine it’s just indoctrination yeah doctor nation yeah how long did and how long were you at the re-education camp before i was there from zoolight i know from june to august and then how did you get out of the re-education camp one time i was uh going out with my uh the other prisoner to clean up the uh the camp and i was pulling the bubble wire with them and one of the uh one of the guy the nva told me that you people are working and we have the inspection team from saigon to come see and when i i saw that i heard that i i don’t wanna i i don’t want i don’t wanna pull the i didn’t ever pull the bubble by anymore i just can’t go along with my friend and one of the guy one on one of the guy in the inspection team he came by my side and asked my name and my military uh id and uh after that he said okay working with your friend and he left he kept walking away and about 50 meters away he pulled out the notebook and stopped writing something i don’t know but one week later they transferred me from longshare to swimmer and from at the swim okay i stayed there for another week and one day they called the uh they announced on the uh on the radio that uh you people have a name below prepare to be uh to have your family to pick your people back home so that was it then you got out of the camp yeah and so now it’s still 1975 1975 and then what happens then what do you start doing um then we start to live with my glasses after 75 you know you know what after that one day they can they go over to the south and their life was miserable you know the people who uh everything is a stem food stamp everything stamped and uh one month maybe each of them each people already can buy maybe 100 100 grams of meat a hundred grams of meat a month of a month maybe sometimes they don’t but it’s say meat but in fact they can do they even can give you either the hide or the fat or anything and i still remember one time when the uh one one of the guy who worked in the uh in the district you know he uh he ride a bicycle to around the uh the street near my my house near my house i said that the face girl people go to my face and my my my my son he was at 75 76 he was nine at seven or nine i don’t remember he just grabbed the basket and runs two to one so he can he can buy the uh the fresh one but if he came late it will reach the selling place there will be rotten fish only only rotten fish so you lived in that regime for how many years how many years did you have to live like this uh from 75 to i don’t remember exactly when you were 84 about 84 and you and you tried to escape a few times yeah i did the first time i tried to escape my son and we got caught how was your first escape attempt what did you do oh i asked my neighbor he she uh she has some uh some information from other people and so we every time we have to pay and uh the first time we got caught and uh at a dumb gun ways out to come myself and we were in prison so they put you and your son in prison yeah you know the uh the the prison in namco is uh listen there’s a case in so maybe it would have cased no not about uh 1 5 the size of this room uh they made it from the uh so maybe 20 feet by 20 feet or something not even that not even that and uh you know the uh the treat and in the uh swam in the swamp that they go in the swamp yes yeah they cut it and they make make it here just like a case just a cage this is just a case and uh they called the top with a bubble y how were you planning to escape what was the plan were you gonna go by boat were you going to walk the other thing we can go is by boat by boat yeah there’s four cores like a lot of canals water much water yeah very few roads and uh how long were you in this cage for with your son uh maybe a couple months and then they transformed research for us to do um yeah and uh you know the case you know in the um nam khan there were a lot of mosquito mosquito and every day we have only one you know the uh tiger beer in vietnam yeah the model but this is week and every day only one one bottle of water for one day for the whole everything for months you’re like that’s in a cage with barbed wire on top and uh mosquito at about five o’clock five pm we have to sit in there with the uh mosquito net if not they but this is a swarm of just like me and after a couple months we will move to uh of somewhere move to uh was it was it another prison another please how long was it were you in total prison for and what why’d they eventually let you out or how did you get out eventually my family and all the others who the people who who organized the escape they get in touch with the local and every time they want myself and my son we will release we have to pay about a six or seven six or seven hours of gold six or seven ounces of gold no no no not out let’s see uh point six or point seven house that will go where would you find gold they like float he just got put his hand in my pocket and found a ring a gold green and he just take it and put it in his pocket and my uh piece of cigarette he take it out and smoke and put in his pocket too that’s when you got caught the second time no he’s supposed to oh the first time so you lost your gold ring you lost your pack of smokes and then you tried to escape a couple more times yeah another two times but after the first time i saw that my uh my son is getting bigger and i don’t want him to to be a scientist to be called to a service by the uh with the nba i um him go by himself so your son escaped by himself did he make it yeah he made it in 87 that mean he at that time he was 16 16 17 so you are facing either you get either your son escapes or your son is going to have to actually serve in the nva who you had fought against for however long six years right and after my son had uh have escaped and i brought my uh my my daughter to escape out another two time i got cut too oh my god and was a punishment as severe the second two times oh no the uh second time we said it was okay but uh we after we we can get out of couple months after we pay about 0 6 7 hours of gold where do you find gold oh luckily that my my my sister who passed away the early this year he sent money to help my my mom where was your sister my sister in french so she was in france yeah so she was able to somehow send money yeah to your mom no he he he she didn’t send money she sent medicine medicine and i sell it i told her got it you were drunk at that time there’s no no medicine to get them and during that time too your father was killed right my father uh died in uh 63 63 63 i’m sorry yeah today i i where is the uh air force the day you joined the air force yeah we killed you my father did that i passed away that day so how did you finally how did you finally get out of vietnam and get to america oh in 88 then i heard the uh ho program i am not a i have not qualified for that program you say ho ho yeah humanitarian organization departure and it helped the people who was in who was in service or who was in prison in the communication for more than three years can come by to come here and uh how did you not qualify for that because the total time i uh i spent prison is only two and a half years oh so you needed to spend some more time in can you imagine that after all his service good lord and uh so i thought that maybe i would i might be uh leaving vietnam forever so i prepare for my what i’m i plan to what i’m going to do to live but at that time the he said with me the uh air force association in san jose they met called masuoka he was the air force retirement so this is an american air force retired girl and he was working with the san jose south vietnamese air force association yeah and he the southern vietnamese air force association asked me to help me ask him to help me and he went to vietnam and saw me when i uh he asked me to bring ontario paper that i had and i brought it to him and when he saw the dfc and he said when he saw the what the dfc no the fc distinguished fight cruise what’s that american award oh the dsc got it got it got it or the the it was flying cars got right okay yeah no i got it i misunderstood okay so he saw that he saw that but he didn’t say anything but later on he said that he told me that he didn’t believe it because usually uh the dfc is supposed to give to always be award with the american holiday so after he looked all kind of pay on my paper and he said that he will try 100 but he is not guaranteed 100 and he uh came back to uh state and he uh called one of the guy who worked in the akai national archives and that guy was it was working with him in the military when he was going out today that guy was the second lit they founded the dfc they found your dfc yeah and they found all the records and the uh paperwork on that uh dfc wow and uh they managed the national inquiry the magazine the national enquirer magazine yeah they they they they found and they found the um before four guys i i rescued okay and uh one pilot came to see me and yeah this is a zone liner and his uh squad command is morrison and they came the national enquirer bought the airplane ticket that was a government over here to the tv wow and so then they set up that program to get you back here so what year did you finally get back here or what did you get to america well let’s see i came here in 94 1994 yeah like the native law what family did you leave back in vietnam uh my mom when i left vietnam my mom still there but i i i told my nephew the uh the son of my uh my uh my missing my brother yeah to take care of to come over i live with her so i can go and i came here in uh i left with them on january 10 94 and i came i reached travis here to uh on january 15 94 and then what happened did you have any family here did you know anybody no at first i lived in the same house with the uh the chief of the the south vietnamese air force association here okay yeah i leave it for six months after that i moved out and then did you get a job what did you do no yeah at that time my uh my my son and my brother my son and my daughter work to support me okay yeah and uh when you made it out so you had your son and your daughter with you when you made it out my my my son came here oh that’s right so he was already here that’s right but when i came here in 94 my daughter came with me got it yeah so your so your son and your daughter were here or your son was already here your daughter came with you and now they’re working and starting to figure out life in america yeah how big of a shock was that to you oh at least at that time i was i was sad because just stay home and do nothing and waiting for the uh or what is going to happen because at that time the uh they were trying to get the citizens here for me so i can get so they can keep me here and it’s a lot of a petition at that time a good reason was uh have had actually a lot of petitions yes say that they say that they’re doing this yeah right and in 1696 yeah i got a citizenship 1996 you got your citizenship here in america then you went to the santa clara fire department yeah i before that i i don’t know i after that i i go to school for the accounting class and after one year i got the uh a job in santa clara for the fire department for almost three years and then they ran out of budget and i would stay up and an employed for six months and get the nurses up in the irs oh you worked for the irs yeah okay well i suppose we’ll have to figure that out yeah he’s one of them he goes from a good guy a hero to the irs and how long were you at the irs for uh from 2000 to 2013 13 years and that was it after that you retired yeah and what are you doing now sleep and watch tv no more prairie fire emergencies huh but at first i i was it was really boring i i tried to look for the apartheid job but i couldn’t i couldn’t find apartheid so then you just had to you just pure retirement now yeah you looked for a part-time job that wasn’t anything i don’t care what i wanted was anything it’s just maybe it’s about four hours six hours a day you’re ready to work yeah ready to work sick of watching tv and you’re up in in this area here in the san jose area yes since the day i came here okay because we might be able to find a job for you somebody probably looking for someone gotcha yeah with the work on that yeah yeah uh tilt did i miss anything i mean well let me rephrase that i know we missed i know there’s all kinds of stories um is there anything else that you want to bring up no i think those are the major stories uh just the documented ones indeed because that’s that’s one thing i mean when you talk when we talk when we broke down your 3 000 combat flight hours i mean we could probably you could talk for you know 3 000 hours explaining what happened on all those missions so i mean uh just unbelievable that you were able to get through all that crazy all right my friend he uh he told me that i they they couldn’t believe that i still alive until today for sure for sure for sure um so till but anything else though no i we’ve covered the major points there and uh you know just like that one time with the marines need help here he comes he just went there under fire and so many times his king bees got shot up i mean 40 50 rounds with holes just amazing stories and the men or there’s so many of our assad guys are alive today thanks to the king bee pilots period and of course the other aviators but in our case we had that direct relationship with them they were our primary assets they put us in they always came to pull us out the pat walkers thing you let off with just a classic moment just captured the essence of that on the ground intense fire fight and here comes the king beat not only do you come he settles into a bomb creator so you can get on a helicopter and go home uh on anything else you want to add oh i think this is that’s enough well i’ll tell you what it’s just been an honor to talk to you and and thank you so much for coming on and more important thank you for your service and your sacrifice it’s it’s um we won’t forget it and you took so many risks you took so many risks and you paid such a price in order to save your comrades and your and your brothers and arms and to be there for the for the guys on the ground and we appreciate that and we appreciate the fact that you stood the line to defend freedom in the world so thank you and during the secret war the king bees were another secret that nobody knew about and so i thank you for doing this to get the story about our heroic on and the other king bee pilots unfortunately many of whom we’ve lost yeah we buried captain tulang two months ago three months ago and uh our secret war had its secrets and one of the gems one of the great assets were our king bees and we salute you every day and they’re brothers in arms so thank you for doing that jocko it’s it’s an honor we appreciate it thank you thank you and with that tilt and on have left the building and once again we are left with an example of what human beings can do what human beings can face what human beings can overcome pretty amazing yes sir pretty humbling yeah yeah feel like we can do more yeah i mean that’s pretty much the general kind of overall consensus as i feel like we can do more yeah i feel like we need to do more i feel like i need to do more anyways i don’t want to like bring you over yeah like group me into your community my whole process of trying to do more because i think sometimes i think you feel like maybe you’re good with what you’re doing sure well yeah i don’t know maybe maybe not but yes i think so so you know he mentioned and we all know that he lost both his hands and then later on joined the fire department so well he was an accountant at the fire department but yes he’s at the fire department with no hands yeah and by the way i mean this is he lost his hands both hands and and i asked him about it he’s like oh yeah well then i went too he was no like there was no uh hesitation in carrying on with what he was gonna do he’s just gonna whatever i guess he’s gonna get hooks and he’s gonna carry on that’s what he’s doing and then at the end which kind of gives you an insight to like how he’s thinking where he’s like yeah i’m like retired and i kind of just you know made a joke like i just sleep and watch tv and he’s like man i’m kind of looking for a part-time job like i gotta go do some stuff you know what i was thinking about if somebody told you a story where they said listen here’s what’s going on i was in a helicopter i was flying the helicopter and that the controls of the helicopter were burning and they were on fire but and i couldn’t hold on to him so i just let him go and then right as we were about to crash i just grabbed onto him and i steered the plane i steered the aircraft the helicopter and i got it to land and we lived but those those controls were so hot it was crazy okay so if you heard that you would think one level of the word hot right yeah and there’s no way that the level of hot that could be explained to you is so hot that you lose both of your hands from voluntarily grabbing the controls yeah like that does and then as you’re trying to get your seatbelt off your hands are just ripping apart falling apart yeah so yeah and that opening that opening that i read from on the ground with the book on the ground by john striker meyer it’s just it’s crazy to think you know oh guess what there’s gonna be too dangerous so i’m not gonna take a co-pilot or a crew chief all’s i’m gonna bring is a door gunner and me that’s it yeah that’s what we’re doing that’s that’s another level yeah by the way you’re sitting on a base like warm whatever i don’t know cool maybe you’re an ac you just had a piece of chicken or something like life is pretty good right and not to mention these guys in vietnam they’re they’re like have to go home at night like till what’s saying hey oh cool i’m gonna go home now because i think when i was on deployment i just put all that family stuff out of my brain yeah i wasn’t thinking about my wife and kids yeah i was in just the deployment mode i think it would be really hard to go oh deployment mode well uh singing ballet recital with the child with the daughter yeah you know how they say hey don’t bring your work home or what you know what’s that saying yeah right that’s another level right there it’s another level check so yes we can do more so yeah all right well keep yourself keep us we’re keeping ourselves in the game we’re all getting older we’re not getting younger put it that way maybe some of us are getting older okay so you’re just going back in time when you edit video there’s a thing you can do that freezes the frame right so that’s kind of what you you you feel that you’re doing freezing the frame yeah okay cool well when you’re working out anyway you need supplementation that’s undeniable i guess you could deny it if you wanted to nonetheless supplementation would be a mistake i think you’d be a mistake yes sir so anyway jacques supplements called choco fuel so these supplements include but not limited to joint warfare free joints super krill oil also for your joints general health some omega-3s in there these are important it’s what i’m saying also discipline discipline go three versions no three versions of this discipline powder do you drink powder every day in the morning kind of yes matter of fact yes so i was thinking about this so in the morning i drink coffee i’m a am i a coffee drinker i don’t know maybe maybe not i don’t drink coffee every single morning but that’s like as far as morning routines go coffee’s not part of your routine i know that’s definitely not part of my routine but it’s the discipline because you get a workout right so you take the discipline every morning before the workout no i take it before i work work oh yeah after the workout yeah when i wake up in the morning i don’t drink anything i just drink water water boom yeah that’s a good one all right interesting that isn’t true i i just now i’m going to when i’m going to the jujitsu on the way there i’m drinking discipline free scoops all day three scoops actually oh yeah sometimes actually four there you go but nonetheless and then um yeah so there is powder version also capsule version cool that’s when you’re on the go and then the energy drink healthy energy drink version see this is a good one so in as far as energy drinks go like we say you can have an energy drink but if you even say an energy drink kind of brings along the stigma of the energy definitely discipline go energy drink rtd does not have that stigma because it is factually healthy truth it’s true anyway sometimes you look at me you want me to give you backup no on your statement no and i just got that look but then you were made a complete talk right so nothing else for me to add yes sir no it’s good for you a lot of times i look at you because like sometimes you’ll have this look like oh let me uh like you remember something yeah like you wanna you know and i just wanna give you that opportunity oh thank you thank you i always have a nice thank you for the opportunity sometimes sometimes you say some good stuff anyway and also milk these are in the form of protein protein in the form of dessert six and one half dozen the other yes sir either way we do know this we’re getting something that’s tasty and good for us good for us so you could essentially just say it’s good it’s good because that covers all bases yes good for you good tasting it depends on what kind of good because there’s a lot of kinds of good and for good uh various things you’ve been doing a lot before a lot of lawyer activity with me lately about well it depends on what you mean by yeah because it’s noticing yeah because you can’t just blanket statement a lot of stuff like okay so my daughter asked me what’s your favorite color so i’m like all right well it kind of depends like let’s say black was my favorite color but at the same time like i don’t necessarily want everything to be black some things i want to be red like i don’t want to eat a black strawberry i’ll tell you that okay you see what i’m saying though a lot of these questions okay like i said you’re doing a lot a lot of these questions demand a little favorite color camo next question all right well you’d want to eat a camel orange yeah i’ll tell you that if there was such a thing if you get an orange that was camo and we just called it a camo instead of an orange all right well i just think of like what if my wife’s face was camo and that again that wouldn’t be too bad either camo all right well whatever all right cool i’ll simplify my answers how about that cool cool anyway appreciated by everybody all these worlds all these things jocko fuel available in various locations including or domain com yes vitamin shop absolutely and as far as discipline go energy drink cans yes available straight up and by the way also on amazon yes sir also speaking of origen or gmail com you can get there you can get wawa florida right now wawa whole east coast january there i said it it’s looking like january for the whole east coast thanks to the floridians yes the florida troopers out there getting after it clearing shelves moving us in the right direction that we can hope for a january full loadout wawa the people from pennsylvania are fired up have you have you noticed that on on social media people from pennsylvania people from jersey people from virginia are like we need it up here in this wawa yes yeah i did see a pedestal probe in there for sure um yes good okay back to origin com american made stuff including geez rash guards jeans american denim and boots yeah and you might think to yourself oh oh american-made jeans right okay i know what that’s going to be that’s going to be a 350 pair of jeans that’s what you you might be thinking that potentially you’re thinking wrong actually you’re thinking wrong get yourself a couple pair of origin genes and listen they’re not as cheap as we want them to be right now but as we grow as we scale we should we will be able to get the price down even more but join the join the club of supporting america that’s true also boots like i said also chocolate store it’s called jocko’s store and speaking of clubs we have another club it’s not really a club it’s just subscript yeah the club i mean really anyway it’s a subscription-based t-shirt scenario i like that way better than cleb club i think club is something that you do unless you’re in a motorcycle gang club yeah then that’s one that’s like one oh so it depends oh doesn’t it well that’s just sort of a cool name right but it depends on the word uh what you mean by club why are you being a lawyer because you’re over here you know you see what i’m saying anyway yes club subscription-based t-shirt situation which you are wearing one today is this the initial launch mode it’s the one of the other ones i must say that one’s dope yeah and you know i don’t throw that phrase around very often though in a while yeah but yes yes sir lots of layers and yeah you know these t-shirt ideas you know they come they go some sticks some don’t stick but this is like an opportunity for all of us to sort of you know capitalize on some of the cool t-shirt ideas that just fly in from time to time yeah any and just like the ideas come and go the shirts will come and go every month you got one shot to get one of these shirts and they’re gone anyway doctorstory com that’s where you can jump on that if you want also on drugstore com you can get the discipline equals freedom uh good all these stuff all this stuff shirts hats hoodies you know some cool stuff on there so yeah if you want something get something that makes sense to me um you can subscribe to this podcast too if you haven’t done that wherever you subscribe to podcast i also got some other podcast choco unraveling with darryl cooper which used to be called the thread now it’s called jocko unraveling also grounded podcast also warrior kid podcast we also have a youtube channel where echo gets to manifest his little video fantasies right okay so you will always say that and hey man good but when you think about it youtube channel you’re talking about enhanced videos videos that we at some point started calling enhanced okay maybe i made that up but either way there are not that many of them they’re all just like the video version of this podcast and some excerpts of this podcast so technically the youtube channel is that’s more you than anything so you know i’m just saying you put it on me a lot so i’m just saying it’s kind of both of us i don’t know it’s sort of the outlet for your stuff though kind of yeah i guess that’s kind of true like i don’t see your stuff being out you you haven’t written any books yet that’s true you don’t you do you have a podcast i guess you have this podcast technically yeah i guess no that’s true because yes if i want to express myself in any capacity creatively yeah where is it going to land it’s going to land on youtube like me i’m over writing songs i’m over playing guitar art i’m painting i’m drawing i’m writing books i’m just all but video that’s your realm yeah that you do that yeah you make a video or two every once in a while which is good which is who i did oh yeah oh yeah check all right nonetheless yes okay so i understand now i understand what you’re saying and you’re correct and i am corrected and i understand that fully and i accept that also psychological warfare it’s an album you know you’re talking about you make music sometimes you’re just making albums yeah there you go so this is one of them anyway there’s not a music one though this is jocko helping you with each track identify and help you overcome any weakness that might that you might encounter so um that one is one of those things that’s helpful but it’s 100 percent effective check there you have it also we have a visual form of that flipsidecanvas com dakota meyer making all kinds of cool stuff to hang on your wall got a bunch of books the books today i read from on the ground we also have across the fence sog chronicles all those three by john striker meyer tilt and also whiskey tango fox drop by lynn black these are some of the song books that are just awesome about faced by colonel david hackworth i wrote the forward to that it’s available now leadership strategy and tactics field manual the code the evaluation the protocols discipline equals freedom field manual way of the warrior kid 4 freedom field manual is out right now you can better order that asap if you want it for christmas mike and the dragon actually anything you want for christmas order it right now right now that’s my that’s my encouragement to you because otherwise it’s not going to be there by christmas you got all these everyone’s ordering everything and delivery people and delivery planes and delivery trucks are short they’re gonna run out so your package is gonna be sitting in a warehouse somewhere and your kids gonna be crying and why are they crying two reasons number one they don’t have warrior kid number two they don’t have warrior kid because if they did they wouldn’t be crying about it yeah that’s true they would they would put their emotions in check so you might want to check that out and also extreme ownership and the dichotomy of leadership echelon front is my leadership consultancy go to echelonfront com if you want help with your leadership ef online where we are training leadership online all the time go to efonline com if you want to ask me a question or you want to figure out some leadership problem that you have come and ask us muster 2020 i’ll let you know about the the dates for muster 2021 that’s where we’re heading ef overwatch if you need people inside your organization that understand the principles we talk about here go to eforewatch com we will supply you with military personnel who are ready for their civilian job to go out and lead and if you want to help service members active duty and retired families gold star families if you want to help out in a bunch of different ways and check out mark lee’s mom her name is mama lee she’s got a charity organization and if you want to donate or do you want to get involved go to america’s mightywarriors org and listen if you seek personal internal agony it’s what you want what you want is to cause pain to yourself and we can deliver you can get more of my lackluster allocations or if you need more of i think this one’s good if you need more of echo’s inexplicable explanations semi-explicable you can find us on the interwebs twitter instagram which just so echo knows what i’m talking about when i say instagram i know you only referred to as the gram and on facebook echoes that aqua charles i am at jocko willock and most important john striker meyer is on instagram at j striker meyer and thanks once again to captain ahn for taking the time to share his experiences with us and more importantly for risking his life over and over and over again for his brothers on the ground and for freedom and thanks to every one of you out there in every branch of service army navy air force marines coast guard and to all of our allies that have stood by us on the battlefield to protect the sacred ideal of freedom thank you and thanks to those you in uniform on the home front police and law enforcement firefighters paramedics emts dispatchers correctional officers border patrol secret service and all the first responders thank you for keeping us safe here at home and everyone else out there think of captain on think of taking care of others think of recognizing the risk of his mission going into an area where they had already lost helicopters and deciding at the moment of truth that he would just go with one other man so as to save as many lives as possible a decision which for him was perfectly logical and as he said no big deal when the call came he went and we all should do the same go and until next time zecko and jocko out