Jocko Podcast 85 w/ Echo Charles – Rationalizing Evil Deeds. “Ordinary Men”

this is jaco podcast number 85 with echo Charles and me Jocko Willing good evening echo good evening I was given a very old man who could not or would not keep up with his countrymen because he repeatedly fell and then simply lay there I regularly had to lift him up and drag him forward thus I only reached the execution site when my comrades had already shot their Jews at the sight of his countrymen who had been shot my Jew threw himself on the ground and remained lying there I then cocked my carbine and shot him through the back of the head because I was already very upset from the cruel treatment of the Jews during the clearing of the town and was completely in turmoil I shot too high the entire back of the skull of my Jew was torn off and the brain exposed parts of the skull flew into Sergeant Steinmetz his face this was grounds for me after returning to the truck to go to the First Sergeant and ask for my release I had become so sick that I simply couldn’t anymore I was then relieved by the first sergeant systematic murder that’s what we’re talking about this is the Nazis final solution which was not always carried out in the relatively detached method often thought of when we think of the Holocaust because when we think of the Holocaust a lot of times we think of this big mechanism we think of trains we think of gas chambers we think of process we think of a massive bureaucratic machine that is doing the killing and maybe that in some way is easier for us to understand and that’s when we focus on that piece it’s easier for us to accept that but it wasn’t all like that many lives were taken many murders committed by hand at close range point-blank so what kind of monsters committed those atrocities those personal atrocities up close and personal murders that covered the murderers in the blood of their victims what what kind of men were those and how did they end up there and what can we do to prevent it from occurring again now to answer or at least try and come to some understanding we’re going to explore a book that is called ordinary men Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the final solution in Poland written by Christopher are browning and that first excerpt that I read is from that book and it’s from a soldier in the police battalion named August thorn and that’s actually a pseudonym the names were changed for some of the Nazis in the book but the book is incredibly detailed in what happened and where these men were Amon what unfolded and obviously this is going to be a graphic episode and you know I actually wish I didn’t have to talk about this I do I really do I wish I could talk about nicer things I wish I could talk about pleasant things and we could just forget about all this horror but I there’s the rub because even though it would be easier and more pleasant to talk about something nice the problem is that if we forget about these things then we forget about these things and if we forget we don’t learn that if we don’t learn about what humans can do and why they do what they do then we can repeat our mistakes and that is awful so we go because we have to go then we go back to the book just as the sky was beginning to lighten the convoy halted outside Yosef wolf it was a typical Polish village of modest white houses with thatched straw roofs among its inhabitants were 1 800 Jews the village was totally quiet the men of Reserve Police Battalion 101 climbed down from their trucks and assembled in the half circle around their commander major Vilhelm trap a 53 year old career policeman affectionately known by his men as papa trap the time had come for trap to address the men and inform them of the assignment the battalion had received pale and nervous with choking voice and tears in his eyes trapped visibly fought to control himself as he spoke the battalion he said plaintively had to perform a frightfully unpleasant task this assignment was not to his liking indeed it was highly regrettable but the orders came from the highest authorities if it would make the task any easier the men should remember that in Germany the bombs were falling on women and children then he turned to the matter at hand the Jews had instigated the American boycott that had damaged Germany one policeman remembered Trapp saying there were Jews in the village of Yosef oaf who were involved with the partisans he explained according to two others the battalion had now been ordered to round up these Jews the male Jews of working-age were to be separated and taken to a work camp the remaining Jews for women children and elderly or to be shot on the spot by the battalion having explained what awaited his men trap made them an extraordinary offer if any of the older men among them did not feel up to the task that lay before them could step out chap paused and after some moments one man from third company Otto Julius chinki stepped forward captain Hoffman who had arrived in Yosef oaf directly from zacchara with third Platoon of 3rd company and had not been part of the officers meetings the day before was furious that one of his men had been the first to break regs Hoffman began to berate shinky but trap caught him off after he had taken Shem key under his protection some ten or twelve other men stepped forward as well they turned in their rifles and were told to wait a further assignment from the major so it will go into this but you’ve got a a battalion three companies there’s probably 500 men and we have vega de savage order that they’re going to go and shoot the women children and elderly on the spot in this village with pretty white houses and the commander this guy trapped who obviously isn’t comfortable with it he’s got tears in his eyes when he’s given this order he says hey if anybody doesn’t want to participate you can step forward now and like ten or twelve people out of five hundred step forward the rest of them all the line in this case going back to the book trap then summons the company commanders and gave them the respective assignments the orders wrote will were relayed by the platoon commanders two platoons a third company or two sir the village the men were explicitly ordered to shoot anyone trying to escape the remaining men were to round up the Jews and take them to the marketplace those too sick or frail to walk to the marketplace as well as infants and anyone offering resistance or attempting to hide were to be shot on the spot there after a few men of the first company were escorted were to escort the work Jews who had been selected at the marketplace while the rest of first company was to proceed to the forest to form firing squads the Jews were to be loaded onto battalion trucks by second company and third Platoon of third company and shuttled from the marketplace to the forest and that’s for executions after making the assignments Trapp spent most of the day in town either in a schoolroom converted into his headquarters at the homes of the Polish mayor and at the local priest at the marketplace or on the road to the forest but he did not go to the forest itself or witness the executions his absence there was conspicuous as one policeman bitterly commented major Trapp was never there instead he remained in Yosef oh because he could allegedly could not bear the sight we men were upset about that and said we couldn’t bear it either indeed traps distress was a secret to no one at the marketplace one policeman remembered hearing traps would say Oh God why did I have to be given these orders as he put his hand on his heart another policeman witnessed him at the schoolhouse today I can see exactly before my eyes made your trap in the gloom pacing back and forth with his hands behind his back he made a downcast impression and spoke to me he said something like man such jobs don’t suit me but orders are orders another man remembered vividly how Trapp finally alone in our room sat on a stool and wept bitterly the tears really flowed to hear that that idea that orders are orders doesn’t stand doesn’t work back to the book as a roundup neared completion the men of first company were withdrawn from the search and given a quick lesson in the gruesome task that awaited them they were instructed by the battalion doctor and the company’s first sergeant and this is a quote from one of the men I believe that at this point all the officers the battalion were present especially our battalion physician dr Shaun Felder he now had to explain to us precisely how we had to shoot in order to induce the immediate death of the victim I remember exactly that for this demonstration he jus or outlines the contour of a human body at least from the shoulders upward and then indicated precisely the point on which the fixed bayonet was to be placed as an aiming guide so we have the battalion doctor who’s instructing some of the men and you’re going to see that it wasn’t all of them to take the bayonet which is on their rifle put it on the back of the neck as an aiming guide to know where exactly where to shoot back to the book first sergeant cammer had taken the initial contingent of shooters in first company to a forest several kilometers from yosef off the trucks halted on a dirt road that ran along the edge at a point where a pathway led into the woods the men climbed down from their trucks and waited when the first truckload of 35 to 40 Jews arrived an equal number of policemen came forward and face to face were paired off with their victims led by cammer the policemen and Jews marched down the forest path they turned off into the woods at a point indicated by captain wolf who busied himself throughout the day selecting the execution sites camera then ordered the Jews to lie down in a row the policeman stepped up behind them placed their bayonets on the backbone above the shoulder blade as instructed earlier and on cameras command fired in unison in the meantime more policemen of first company had arrived at the edge of the forest to fill out a second firing squad as the first firing squad marched out of the woods to the unloading point the second group took their victims along the same path into the woods olaf’s chose a site a few yards farther on so the next batch of victims would not see the corpses from the earlier execution these Jews were again forced to lie face down in a row and the shooting procedure was repeated thereafter the pendulum traffic of the two firing squads in and out of the woods continued throughout the day except for a midday break the shooting proceeded without interruption until nightfall at some point in the afternoon someone organized a supply of alcohol for the shooters by the end of day of nearly continuous shooting the medic completely lost track how many Jews they had each killed in the words of one policeman it was in any case a great number so clearly this is not what we think of when we think of the Holocaust men being paired off with their victims to take out in the woods and shot in the back of the head and going through this procedure the entire day back to the book in contrast the first company the men of second company received no instruction on how to carry out the shooting initially bayonets were not fixed as an aiming guide and as Hergert noted there was a considerable number of missed shots that led to the unnecessary wounding of the victims one of the policemen in her dirt’s unit likewise noted the difficulty the men had an aiming properly at first we shot freehand when one aimed too high the entire skull exploded as a consequence brains and bones flew everywhere thus we were instructed to place the bayonet point on the neck according to her Gert however using fixed bayonets as an aiming guide was no solution through the point-blank shot though the point-blank shot that was thus required the bullet struck the head of the victim of such a trajectory that often the entire skull or at least the entire rear skull cap was torn off and blood bone splinters and brains sprayed everywhere and besmirched the shooter’s Hergert was so emphatic that no one in first Platoon was given the option of withdrawing beforehand but once the executions began and men approached either him or sheer because they could not shoot women and children they were given other duties this was confirmed by one of his men during the execution word spread that anyone could not take it any longer could rip he then went on to note I myself took part in some ten shootings in which I had to shoot men and women I simply could not shoot at people anymore which became apparent to my sergeant Hergert because at the end I repeatedly shot past for this reason he relieved me other comrades were also relieved sooner or later because they simply could no longer continue so obviously there’s mixed emotions about this whole thing from the top of the chain of command right down to the frontline shooters that are only able to do this so many times some of them opted out of it initially but let’s remember that it’s still taking place and no one’s stopping it no one’s – some say some people are excusing themselves from it but there’s no one saying hey what the hell are we doing right now back to the book some of the men who hurried at their task shot far more Jews than others who delayed as much as they could after two rounds one policeman simply slipped off and stayed among the trucks at the edge of the forest another managed to avoid taking his turn with the shooters altogether and here’s a quote from him it was in no way the case that those who did not want to or could not carry out the shooting of human beings with their own hands could not keep themselves out of the task no strict control was being carried out here I therefore remained by the arriving trucks and kept myself busy at the arrival point in any case I gave my activity such an appearance it could not be avoided that one or another of my comrades noticed that I was not going to the executions to fire away at the victims it showered me with remarks such as shithead and weakling to express their disgust but I suffered no consequences for my actions I must mention here that I was not the only one who kept himself out of participating in the executions so guys like I said had figured out that they can not participate if they don’t want to and they’re getting called cowards and weaklings by the guys that are actually cowards and weaklings that are going out and executing people back to the book as with first company alcohol was made available to the policemen under Drucker & Steinmetz who stayed in the forest and continued shooting as darkness approached at the end of a long summer day and the murderers task was still not finished the shooting became even less organized and more hectic the forest was so full of dead bodies that it was difficult to find places to make the Jews lie down so they complete this massacre and they head back to their barracks and here we go back to the book when the men arrived back at the barracks they were depressed angered embittered and shaken they ate little but drink heavily generous quantities of alcohol were provided and many of the policemen got quite drunk major Trapp made the rounds trying to console and reassure them and again placing the responsibility on higher authorities placing responsibility on higher authorities you’re not allowed to do that but neither the drink nor traps consolation could wash away the sense of shame and horror that pervaded the barracks so that was the first police action that they did this was this took place in Poland it was the first time that the group had deployed to Poland and to give you you know when you we hear what they did yeah you hear some people that that had a hard time with it but still like I said that was a small percentage that like 10% maybe 15% of people that said no I’m not going to do her to that that hit or or made themselves busy with other things most of the guys just went ahead and did what they’re told to do and you think yourself okay well who were these guys were they hardened combat veterans from the frontline were they were they young sort of brainwashed Nazi youth that were that that’s what they believed in and they they just they their mind just saw that as the reality that they had to go through it and this is the strange thing about this book is that that’s not what it is that’s not who these guys were and now go to the book to talk about who they actually were for the most part reserved but reserved Police Battalion 101 was now composed of men without any experience of German occupation methods in Eastern Europe or for that matter with the exception of the very oldest to a World War one veteran’s any kind of military service most these guys aren’t even from the military the battalion consisted of 11 officers five administrative officials in charge of financial matters relating to pay and religious provisioning lodging etc and 486 noncommissioned officers and men the battalion was divided into three companies each of of proxy 140 men when at full strength two companies were commanded by police captains and third by senior reserve lieutenant a battalion each company was divided into three platoons to them commanded by reserve lieutenants and the third by a platoon senior sergeants so this is kind of a normal military make up the battalion was commanded by 53 year-old Maj Wilhelm Trapp World War 1 veteran and recipient of the Iron Cross first class now we know World War one obviously was a brutal war and he’s a survivor of that awarded the Iron Cross first class and fought for Germany and lost what’d he do after war back to the book after the war he became a career policeman and rose through the ranks he’d recently been promoted from captain of second company and this was his first battalion command though Trapp had joined the Nazi Party in December of 1932 and thus technically qualified as an old party fighter or author comfor he had never been taken into the SS or even given an equivalent SS rank in spite of the fact that Himmler and Heydrich constantly tried to merge and intertwine the state and party components of their SS Police Empire Trapp was clearly not considered SS material so and and you’re going to see this these guys and there’s a war going on so why are these guys in a Police Battalion as opposed to being on the frontlines fighting a war the reason is because they’re not quite the right material to go out fight and by the way this is you know we’re going to get to a point soon in the war where there’s some 14-year old Hitler youths going out to fight but these guys aren’t aren’t being selected back to the book he was soon to come into conflict with his two captains both young SS men who even in their testimony more than 20 years later made no attempt to conceal their contempt for their commander as weak unmilitary and unduly interfering in the duties of his officers so he’s got a couple police captain’s that were a little bit more hardcore let me tell you about them wolfgang hoffman he was born nineteen fourteen sixteen years old he was in Hitler Youth in 1932 at eighteen he was in the SS graduated from gymnasium which is a college preparatory high school in 1934 during the police force in 1936 entered the Nazi Party in 1937 same year he completed police training was commissioned as a lieutenant and now he’s in the reserves in 1942 Reserve Police Battalion 101 so he’d come up through the ranks you know as a Nazi but still even him I mean his formative years he’s born in 1914 so you know it’s not like it’s all he knew you know he went from 1914 to what 1933 1930 he was 16 years old he had been formed you know lived as a normal German before the Nazi Party was around we’re not talking a brainwashed complete Nazi youth same thing with the other guy born in 1913 this is Julius Wolfe also graduated from gymnasium joined the Nazi Party in 1933 1936 became SS so these guys are more you know they’re more engaged in the whole Nazi Party and obviously toeing the line along that now so that’s the two police captains that are in charge of a couple of the company’s inside the battalion now let’s talk a little bit about the men the men aged generally from 33 to 48 years old five were party members none of them belonged to the SS of the back of the book of the thirty-two noncommissioned officers on whom we have information 22 or party members and seven or in the SS they ranged in age from 27 to 40 years old their average age was 33 and a half they were not reservists but rather pre-war recruits to the police of the rank and file so now we’re just talking about the troops the 400 plus troops of the rank and file the vast majority were from the Hamburg area 63 percent were working-class background but fewer skilled laborers the majority of them held typical Hamburg working class jobs dock workers and truck drivers were most numerous but there are also many warehouse and construction workers machine operators seamen and waiters about 35 percent were lower middle class virtually all of them white-collar workers three-quarters of them were in sales of some sort the other one-quarter form various office jobs in both government and private sector the number of on the number of independent artisans and small businesses businessmen were very small only a handful 2% were middle-class profession professionals and very modest ones at that such as druggist and teachers the average age of the men was 39 over half or between 37 and 42 a group considered too old for the army but most heavily conscripted for reserved police duty after September 1939 so these get so the group the men are there there’s thirty forty years old thirty-five forty years old these guys have fully developed right there they’re not they’re not being a vegetable yeah they’re not impressionable guys that are just raised inside the nautical I mean let’s face it if you’re raised in any cultish religion scenario there’s a really good chance that that’s what you’re going to believe in and you don’t understand any other way of thinking so you can I don’t know if you can be excused but it’s understandable you end up that way back to the book the men of Reserve Police battalion were from the lower orders of German society they had experienced neither social nor Geographic mobility by virtue of their age and here’s what we’re just talking about by virtue of their age of course all went through their formative period in the pre Nazi era era these were men who had known political standards and moral norms other than those of the Nazis most came from Hamburg by reputation one of the least knock defied cities in Germany and the majority came from a social class that had been anti-nazi in its political culture these men would not seem to have been a very promising group from which to recruit mass murderers on the half on behalf of Nazi vision of a racial utopia free of Jews and I think that title list book is ordinary men and that’s why because that’s what we’re talking about here ordinary men yes that’s it that’s about a a clear cross-section of society then you could come up with I mean you come from the same cross-section of society in America bunch of guys working as construction workers waiters truck drivers dock workers I mean that’s what that’s what people do Oh what age of a 35 40 years old okay is that the group that you think is going to be able to take out and get them to murder thousands and thousands of people face to face okay now there’s a section here reflections on the massacre itself and it’s talking about this first like I said this first thing that took place in yosef it was that’s their first big action as a group so here we go back to the book at you associate yourself of a mere dozen men out of nearly 500 responded instinctively to major traps offered a step for and excused themselves from the impending mass murder why was the number of men from the beginning declared themselves who from the beginning declare themselves unwilling to shoot so small any kind of offers an explanation here it’s like the suddenness of it mm-hm and then people are kind of surprised and and I I can make sense of that right like if I gave you time to say fox-like I hey echo we got to go to this thing right now you find you like okay cool let’s go do it right but if I said hey echo I’m gonna we’re gonna go do something tomorrow tomorrow you know I’ll pick you up at 10:30 mm-hmm let me know well now you have time to contemplate yeah so he surprised him with it there’s also obviously there was peer pressure right to conform and you know that that’s going to play a role and we’ll talk about that more later going back to book back to the book nonetheless the act of stepping out that morning in yosef meant leaving one’s comrades and admitting that one was too weak or cowardly who would have dared one policeman declared emphatically to lose face before the assembled troops if the questions posed to me why I shot with the others in the first place said another who subsequently asked to be excused after several rounds of killing I must answer that no one wants to be thought a coward it was one thing to refuse at the beginning he added and quite another to try and shoot but not be able to continue another policeman more aware of what truly required courage said quite simply I was cowardly so that person gets it you know you know these people that the shooters are saying hey I don’t want to be a coward so I wanted to go shoot when actually to stand up and say no that’s what would have taken real moral core courage at this point and obviously these guys knew what they were doing was wrong yeah they knew it that’s why there some of them weren’t able to continue now speaking of cowardly here’s a little section that I thought he should be pointed out and we were talking about this before the podcast how people rationalize things yeah well listen to this rationalization perhaps the most astounding rationalization of all was that of a 35 year old metal Tucker from Bremerhaven quote I made the effort and it was possible for me to shoot only children it so happened that the mothers led the children by the hand my neighbor then shot the mother and I shot the child that belonged to her because I reasoned with myself that after all without its mother the child could not live any longer it was supposed to be so to speak soothing to my conscious to release the children unable to live without their mothers and actually he goes in here and talks about the German word for release also means to like redeem or save so this guy’s really twisted things up in his head the dangers of rationalization right there good God back to the book with few exceptions the whole question of anti-semitism is marked by silence so this is interesting this is very interesting he the as they and I should have pointed this out earlier but this book is based on all these different interviews and witness accounts mostly of the policemen themselves now and again I should have pointed this out in the beginning of course people are making witness statements and there’s all kinds of problems with those right they don’t remember things correctly they’re trying to protect themselves they’re trying to protect their friends they’re trying to indict certain people and make them look like the bad guy they might be trying to make themselves look good so there’s all these kind of angles that you have to listen to them you have to understand this with yeah but this is interesting as they interview these guys back to the book with few exceptions the whole question of anti-semitism is marked by silence what is clear is that the men’s concern for their standing in the eyes of their comrades was not matched by any sense of human ties with their victims the Jews stood outside their circle of human obligation and responsibility such a polarization between us and them between one’s comrades and the enemy is of course standard in war and it is indeed but I guess what surprised me as these guys weren’t going in there with thinking themselves ok these the Jews that are doing us wrong and we’re going to get our chance they were just kinda saying whether or not us right so we’ll do what we have to do back to the book even 20 or 25 years later those who did quit shooting along the way overwhelmingly cited sheer physical revulsion against what they were doing as the prime motive but to not express any ethical or political principles behind this revulsion so that’s interesting these guys were stopping because it made them feel sick and they weren’t saying look I know so I I’m actually what I’ve been saying is like hey these guys knew it was wrong well they didn’t think of it as wrong or at least this is explaining that they weren’t taking oh this is so wrong right but their thinking was I’m going to be sick now any rational person can figure out that if something makes you sick to do then you’ve got some deep-seated knowledge that what you’re doing is wrong yeah yeah it seems like that that was like the the moral part of it right or wrong so that wasn’t the primary the primary it was just I can’t take the blood and guts man I can’t take the blood and guts yeah you’re exactly right now like I said there’s a connection I don’t think he makes in the book but in my mind there’s a connection mmm if you’re doing something that makes you feel sick yeah it’s not just to make you feel sick that should be bothering you what should be bothering you is the fact that you’re doing something that makes you feel sick there’s a reason why it makes you feel sick there’s a reason why human beings feel sick when they’re laying down children and shooting in the back of the head there’s a reason for that that’s an it that’s a that’s a like of like a survival instinct right for your for your species to carry on yeah you have to make the other members of your species survive yes leave this just like I said they were there wasn’t like some enemy kind of feeling towards if you like it’s not like oh we’re defending ourselves against this enemy you know wasn’t that it was just that it was essentially the minimum requirement right and go against somebody there nada yeah and he’s kind of go into this a little bit but yeah you’re right it’s not it’s not like they’re saying he says hey there’s there’s women and children being bombed back in Germany right now but there’s no direct correlation they’re not saying hey look these Jews are fighting us they’re gonna they’re going to take over they’ve got grounding you know on our borders those are not saying that they’re actually in total control you know of the Jews at this point or they’re not told what they’re getting really close getting really close back to the book the resentment and bitterness in the battalion over what they had been asked to do and yosef oaf was shared by virtually everyone even those who’d shot the entire day the exclamation of one policeman to First Sergeant camera of the first company that I’d go crazy if I had to do that again express the sentiments of many but few went beyond complaining to extricate themselves from such a possibility so I said hey I hope I never have to do that again yeah but very few of them said actually made a stand the most dramatic back to the book the most dramatic response again was that of Lieutenant Buckman who asked Trapp – haven’t transferred back to hamburg and declared that short of a direct personal order from Trapp he would not take part in jewish actions in the end he wrote to Hamburg explicitly requesting a recall because he was not suited to certain tasks alien to the police that were being carried out by his unit in Poland Buckman had waited had to wait until November but his efforts to be transferred were ultimately successful so there’s a guy that that’s one guy that they’re citing that actually said dude I’m not gonna do this now it was bad enough and did have a bad enough effect on the men and they complained about it enough that there was some changes so here we go back to the book in subsequent actions – vital changes were introduced henceforth with some notable exceptions adhere to first most of the future operations of the Reserve Police Battalion 101 involved ghetto clearing and deportation not outright massacre on the spot the policemen were thus relieved of the immediate horror of the killing process which for deportees from the northern Lebanon district was carried out in the extermination camp at Treblinka so now we’re not going to have to go shoot them you just got to gather them up and get a get them shipped off to the extermination camp second while deportation was a horrifying procedure characterized by the terrible coercive violence needed to drive people onto the death trains as well as the systematic killing of those who could not be marched to the trains these actions were generally undertaken jointly by units of reserve Police Battalion 101 and the char electronic ease SS trained auxiliaries from the Soviet territories recruited from the Russian POWs camps and usually assigned to the very worst parts of the ghetto clearing and deportation so imagine this group you get a group of thugs that are from Russian POWs camps and you say oh yeah you will let you have this POWs camp and you can come work for us and they’re trained by the SS not exactly a friendly crew of guys in fact that’s like I can’t imagine a worse group of people to come and come after you yeah back to the book the bulk of the killing was to be removed to the extermination camp and the worst of the on-the-spot dirty work was to be assigned to the Trani keys this change would prove sufficient to allow the men of reserve Police Battalion 101 to become accustomed to their participation in the final solution when the time came to kill again the policemen did not go crazy instead they became increasingly efficient and catalyst executioner’s so couple changes it was obviously it was a little too much for him to actually do all the killing themselves now they got some people to help them out and or they are just going to gather them up and ship him away and nail down now they’re only playing a little piece in the in the in the in the machine mmm right just a little piece of machine so it’s a lot easier to detach from what’s actually happening back to the book the Jews of lo mozzie were to be the target of reserve battalion 101 s first joint killing action with a unit from the Trani key second company was to provide the bulk of the manpower for the roundup the primary function of the Czarnecki was unit was to provide the shooters thus alleviating the chiefs psychological burden the German policeman had experienced at yosef F and here the the orders come out they’re going in and now there’s another term that comes up it’s it’s it has to do with attorney key but it’s key lease and it’s short I forget what the German words are but he wheeze is short for too big german words one of them that means a willing and one of them that means helper so they called these these sort of people that had come to the German side and we’re not they called the Huey’s and it’s like I said it stands for willing helper it’s like it’s like using you’ve heard the term spec war that stands for Special Warfare yeah this is the same thing with two german words that mean willing helper hmm so here we go back to book the NCOs were told that the Kiwis from Troicki would do the shooting so the policeman would for the most part be spared nonetheless the roundup was to be conducted as had been done before which is to say that infants and the old sick and frail who could not be easily taken to the assembly point were to be shot on the spot so not out of all the killing according to one squad leader however most children were once again brought to the assembly point as Joseph of the men encountered not only German Jews but specifically Hamburg Jews during the clearing action the Jews quickly filled the schoolyard and overflowed into the adjoining sports field with some shooting the roundup was finished in two short hours that’s it that’s a real sort of one sentence and if you can just try and imagine what the hell is going on there these soldiers these Russian soldiers these German soldiers are coming in and rounding people up they’re using violence shooting people to get all the Jews into the schoolyard this is a nightmare scenario that they did that you know he puts in a sentence here back to the book the 1700 Jews of loom Ozzy were then forced to sit and wait a group of 60 to 70 young men were selected out given shovels and spades loaded onto trucks and driven to the woods several the young Jews jump from the moving trucks and made good their escape another attacked a German corporal the battalion boxing championing champion who promptly knocked his desperate assailant senseless in the woods the Jews were set to digging a mass grave back in low mazi the weight of the doomed Jews and their police guards stretched in two hours suddenly a contingent of 50 Kiwis from chinky marched into town led by German SS officer I can still remember it exactly one policeman testified that immediately after the arrival of these Trani keys took a break after the arrival the Cherokees took a break I saw that in addition to food they also took out bottles of vodka out of their packs and drank from them the SS officer and nad is a guy that arrived on the scene algún Aid began drinking heavily as well the other NCOs smelled of all but unlike the two commanders were not visibly drunk so these guys are drinking vodka and they know what they’re about to have to go do now we’re talking about this guy lieutenant need lieutenant nade was a Nazi by conviction and an anti-semite he was also unpredictable affable and approachable at times brutal and vicious at others and here’s an eyewitness account from one of the soldiers back to the book even before the shooting began first lieutenant made had personally picked out some 20 to 25 elderly Jews they were exclusively men with full beards Nate made the old men crawl on the ground in the area before the grave before he gave them the order to crawl they had to undress while the totally naked jewel Jews crawled first lieutenant made screamed to those around where are my noncommissioned officers don’t you have any clubs yet the noncommissioned officers went to the edge of the forest fetch themselves clubs and vigorously beat the Jews with them they get the mass grave dug and here we go immediately large numbers of Jews were driven into the grave and the Healy’s took their position on the walls that had been thrown up from there they shot the victims as the shooting continued the grave began to fill the Jews who followed had to climb on and later later even clamber over those shot earlier because the grave was filled with corpses almost to the edge the NCOs decided that the execution should continue with two firing squads on opposite sides of the grave the Jews were forced to lie down rows alongside each other each side of the grave and were shot by the police standing on the opposite wall men from all three platoons were formed into squads of eight to ten and were relieved by others in a rotation after five or six shots after about two hours the Kiwis were riot rosed from their stupor and resumed shooting in place of the German policeman the shooting was finished around 7:00 p m and the work dues who had been kept aside covered the grave the work Jews were then shot as well the thin covering of the overfilled grave continued to move so you got people that are not dead that are now buried alive and there was a part that I didn’t cover basically the Huey’s got too drunk to continue on and the the police had to go and take their place for a while and then they kind of recovered but this is this this is the situation that we’re talking about just a complete nightmare back to the book one other factor sharply distinguished alum Ozzie from yosef oh and may well have been yet another kind of psychological relief for the men namely and this is important from from a psychological and from a leadership perspective and one so going back to the one other factor meant sharply distinguished low mazi from Yosef oh and may well have been yet another kind of psychological relief for the men namely this time they did not bear the burden of choice that trap had offered them so starkly on the occasion of the first massacre no chance to step out was given to those who did not feel up to the shooting no one systematically excused those who were visibly too shaken to continue everyone assigned to the firing squads took his turn as ordered therefore those who shot did not have to live with clear awareness that they had what they had done had been unavoidable so that’s a big difference the big difference and from a leadership perspective that’s something that I’ve actually talked about this before um it’s interesting when we were in Ramadi you know we tasking a bruiser we kind of decided what we were going to do right you know we we weren’t getting told go do this and so everything that we did we did because we decided that it was we could mitigate the risk and we could take this bitter good operation and we could it was an area that we could do a good job in so we had a lot of control over our fate and that’s that actually can be psychologically heavier because if something goes wrong it’s all it’s all on you as the leader yeah or as the leadership team or even as the guys that are on the front line point man the point man selecting his own you know going down the front the frontline troops the point man is selecting the route if it’s an ie D sure you know it’s the enemy’s fault and butBut he’s thinking to himself why did I choose that route yeah now the army they did have some control but they had more often than not they be getting told to hey you’re gonna go on a patrol down this road or hey you’re gonna go hit this building so they were relieved oftentimes of that freedom of choice yeah so the freedom of choice can be a little bit of a burden and so what happened here was the freedom of choice was taken away and that burden was there for taking I look you’re going to shut up and do this yeah guys whoa okay yeah because you have like if you have that choice like back to the part where the 12 guys stepped out right and yeah we can look at it as the guys who stepped out have more courage because they’re not essentially there’s two things to be kind of scared of or have courage against right one is okay I’m not scared to kill these people or ask you to pull the trigger right no and then there’s I’m not scared to go against the norms yeah you know we change it a really bigger kind of thing much harder yeah so the end that end you have the choice which one are you going to do you know if you if they give you the truck okay you can step out if you want what are you do it was looking at you like okay are you gonna I wonder what the tipping point would have been in other words like Ian chose to do it know if if 10 people but then what if it was 30 yeah what if it was 40 at any time in a crowd yeah you seen that stupid video where there’s like one guy he’s dancing by himself and it’s like some viral video the kind of old school I don’t know but it’s it’s a stupid viral video you don’t have to go watch it yourself but ultimately what happens so there’s a guy there like some kind of a concert some kind of a outdoor concert there’s a guy dancing by himself yeah he’s dancing by himself for a long time and that’s why I saw it was come he was talking about like group or they used this as an example of group psychology the guys dancing for by himself for a long time and what they’re actually saying is that the person that has the courage is it’s actually the second person that joins him so anyways the one person dancing dancing by himself for several minutes yeah then another person joins him mm-hmm once the other person joins him then all of a sudden five people and then it’s 20 people and then the next thing you know everyone is dancing yeah and I wonder what the tipping point would have been here yeah you get 10 deep a lot of 500 that wasn’t enough yeah that’s crazy but you know what if all of a sudden 15 20 30 40 people would have stepped forward then all the sudden does is just everyone says hey we’re not doing this yeah yeah I think if they knew wonder if they knew for sure that there wasn’t going to you know because some guys were getting called names well yeah and I think it’s the suddenness that he talked about my book you know if you just said okay listen tomorrow yeah we’re gonna do we’re gonna go out to kill a bunch of women and children point-blank range in the woods yeah you’re gonna have to shoot them all yes let me know if you’re down yeah and then if you had done that but then given them hours to sit there and think about it yeah and then the next guys I hate what are you gonna do the empty then then it may have spread yeah that peer pressure was hardcore that’s what I mean hardcore so that yes it especially like I said if they’re scared of the authority it’s like okay the tipping point is going to be more for sure but like you know you do something like you know your example or you you ever see you know you see this all the time where you say so I’m here on stage you say something kind of cool not you know it’s not the end of your presentation you say something technical and then one guy starts clapping and then everyone starts clapping right you know it’s kind of that thing where there’s no consequence to clapping so it’s like all right oh shoot that’s what we’re good okay I’ll clap I feel good about clapping I’m gonna do it you don’t kind of think there’s no real resistance so the tipping point is going to be one guy that’s the tipping point but you get something where there’s going to be there might be some resistance some risk you know of pain or you know whatever kind of punishment yeah the tipping point is going to be more and thank you I wonder what that is men because not like like the Nazi regime was very understanding no no no no I mean you know pretty much you can say that most military units aren’t very understanding you know there’s going to be a certain level of like hey there’s discipline in place for immediate reason and you can get away you know I talk about all the time you know I said look you can’t store people to do things and only last for so long yeah but how long didn’t need to last year it only need to last a night you can get everyone to do what you need them do tonight you know okay we we got through our mission and now I’ll let them you know what do you do you actually let him go get drunk and you know talk to him and and built up some more leadership capital because he expended it he expended a bunch of his leadership capital to get this mission done and now he’s got to rebuild it and reap kind of get good develop this relationship again with the guys and and bring in some other changes hey look you know we’re not gonna do all the killing this time so you know it’s crazy it I thought it was pretty surprising and I’d be kind of a feel kind of psycho saying refreshing to know that they didn’t get that much punishment aside from some name-calling you know because you don’t think of it like that I think only when you think of it like all this in it you know oh okay I got to kill ya people see you guys yeah yeah all the guy was named called yeah and that’s another thing that they prob that that might have changed the tipping point yeah yeah very like you know those guys to step forward they might have thought they get put in the ditch because there’s and I didn’t cover this part but there’s definitely some parts where guys like hey we’ll put you in the ditch that’s I need to get here I’ll do your job yeah but I think that reveals the discomfort of the overall situation they were looking at there buddy saying no I’m gonna kill you now they were like hey actually I kind of agree with you but you just say over there we’ll go forward no okay so the next situation that they get into of these deportations to Treblinka the the death camp and here we go back to the book while the policeman did not know precisely where the Jews were being sent or what was being done with them it was all clear and well known to all of us as Heinrich Steinmetz admitted that for the Jews effected the deportations meant the path to death we suspected that they would be killed in some sort of camp spared direct participation in the killing the men of reserved Police Battalion 101 seemed scarcely suit to have been disturbed by this awareness even though there were more victims in the deportations than in Yosef o or Lomas a massacres combined out of sight was truly out of mind so now they’re in this mode of their just doing the deportations now I say just doing the deportations and I don’t want to make that sound like it wasn’t a brutal vicious exercise that they were doing here we go back to the book driven by the Kiwis and policemen thousands of Jews steamed into the marketplace streamed in the marketplace here they had to sit or squat without moving or getting up as the hours passed on this very hot August of the late summer heat wave many Jews fainted and collapsed moreover beating and shooting continued in the marketplace and I don’t know if I quoted this in here if I can get to it but these guys they they’re shooting people they also bring out whips so they’re whipping people it’s brutal back to the book one final horror was reserved to the end for the train cars now had to be loaded while the Healy’s and security police packed 120 to 140 Jews into each car the reserved policeman stood guard and observed as one remembered when it didn’t go well they made use of writing lips and guns the loading was simply frightful there was an unearthly cry from these poor people because 10 or 20 cars were being loaded simultaneously the entire freight train was dreadfully long one could not see all of it and they have been fifty to sixty cars if not more and after a car was loaded the doors were closed and nailed shut once all the cars were sealed the men of reserved priests at battalion 101 quickly departed without waiting to see the train pull away these guys did their little part of the job and they’re going to walk away now but yeah it’s an again it’s a nightmare scenario continuing on shortly before the deportation program resumed in northern security zone Reserve Police Battalion 101 was involved in several more mass shootings so there’s a couple times that they don’t get the help that they had before going back to the book without the experienced help of the Huey’s wolf organized the executions along the lines of Joseph of of the Yosef own shooting the groups of 20 to 30 Jews which had been marched out of town at succession to gravel pits or turned over to an equal number of Peters and Eurex commandos thus each policeman once again faced the individual Jew he was going to shoot the Jews were not forced to undress nor was there a collection of valuables there was also no selection for labor all the Jews regardless of age and sex were to be shot so that you know in the earlier ones they were stripping them down and collecting their valuables and not even doing that and I bet they’re not doing that because when you do that you’re getting some kind of an interaction you’re seeing their personal items and they didn’t want any that just take him out and shoot them the easiest psychological way to do it back to the book the policeman in the shooting commandos marched their juice the crest of one of the mounds of waste material in the area of the gravel pits the victims were lined up facing a 6-foot drop from a short distance behind the policeman fired on order into the necks of the Jews the bodies tumbled over the edge following each round the next group of Jews was brought up to the same spot and the had to look down at the growing pile of corpses of their family and friends before they were shot in turn only after a number of rounds did the shooters change sights here’s some more deportation operations they’re back to doing deportations back to the book but even the most unfettered violence could not overcome the shortage of train cars and when the doors were finally forced shut about a hundred and fifty Jews mostly women and children but also some men remained made this is that same lieutenant sadist summoned Drucker and told him to take these Jews to the cemetery at the cemetery entrance the policeman chased away the eager spectators and waited until First Sergeant Ostman arrived in a truck with a supply of vodka for the shooters Ostman turned to one of his men who had Hitler too avoided shooting and chided him drink up now Pfeiffer you’re in for it this time because the Jewesses must be shot you’ve gotten yourself out of it so far but now you must go to it an execution squad of about 20 men was sent into the cemetery the Jews were brought in groups of 20 men first and then women and children they were first to lie down near the cemetery wall and then shot from behind the neck each policeman fired seven or eight times at the cemetery gate one Jew sprang a drucker with a syringe but was quickly subdued the other Jews sat quietly awaiting their fate even after the shooting began they were quite emaciated and looked half starved to death one guard remembered the in it that it’s it’s covered in here not in the kind of detail we should cover it but you know these Jews that were now getting rounded up they were already in mostly get well in some of the cases in the book they were already in these ghettos Jewish ghettos like they’d been forced into these ghettos there now just living there starving but they’re living and and then the Germans didn’t know more Jews they wanted the areas I think the board was Juden free was like free of Jews so now even these people and by the way there was some some of the Germans that complained like hey those are my laborers you can’t kill my laborers now we’re killing everyone so even again it’s not like this is an enemy with a threat these people were now completely subdued living in these in these called gassed ghettos they’re like prison ghettos they’re living in there there’s no threat to anybody but they round them up take them out to kill them now one of the interesting points that they bring up in the book and I want to cover the whole thing but it’s worth mentioning is that this guy Hoffman one of the would come on the captain’s he has this strange stomach illness like he gets upset to his stomach so here we go he misses some of the actions or at least he’s not their president when the executions are taking place and whatnot and it just painted a picture of the kind of leader that he is so going back to the book uniformly Hoffman’s men offered a different perspective meaning it’s not just like yo he’s sick to his stomach in blah blah blah by their observation his alleged bouts of stomach cramps confining him safely to bed coincided all too consistently with company actions that might involve either unpleasantness or danger it became common for the men to predict upon hearing the night before a pending action that the company chief would be bedridden in the morning Hoffman’s behavior rankled as men even more because of two aggravating factors first he had always been strict and unapproachable a typical base officer who liked his white collar in gloves wore his SS insignia on his uniform and demanded considerable deference so that’s that’s the one thing you heard about the guy this is just painted the worst picture of just such a horrible human being he loves wearing his rank he loves being the guy a base officer hmm now this there’s a term for that they have I think we made up in the not we but the US current or fighting soldiers and Marines it’s a fob ik fob it so you get something called a Forward Operating Base overseas and the forward operating bases can actually be you know pretty nice there they’re relatively secure and so the fob it right is the leader that just wants to stay on the fob yeah and want to go out so this guy’s but of course the fob it’s always running around you know wanting to be respected Manning respect demanding deference so this guy’s a fob it the other thing is and this is very typical of this kind of wretched human back to the book second Hoffman tried to compensate for his immobility by intensified supervision of his subordinates so he’s not around but he’s going to be more of a jerk and impose himself more on to the on to the men now they’re continuing with another another ghetto that had to be cleared back to the book by October the order was for real placards announced that all Jews who did not go to the ghettos would be shot the shooting order was made part of regular company instructions to the men and given repeatedly especially before they were sent on Patrol no one could be left in any doubt that not a single Jew was to remain alive in the battalion security zone an official jargon the battalion made forest patrols for suspects as the surviving Jews were to be tracked down and shot like animals however the men of Reserve Police Battalion 101 unofficially dubbed this phase of the final solution the Jew hunt the Jew hunt up many forms most spectacular or to battalion sweeps and here’s a some George Leffler of third company talking about that what those sweeps were like back to the book we were told that there were many Jews hiding in the forest we therefore searched through the woods in a skirmish line but we could find nothing because the Jews were obviously well hidden we combed the woods a second time only then could we discover individual chimney pipe sticking out of the earth we discovered that Jews had hidden themselves in underground bunkers here they were hauled out with some resistance and only one bunker some of the comrades climbed down into this bunker and hauled the Jews out the Jews were then shot on the spot the Jews had to lie face down on the ground and were killed by a neck shot who was in the firing squad I don’t remember I think it was simply a case where the men standing nearby were ordered to shoot them some fifty Jews were shot including men and women of all ages because entire families had hidden themselves there the shooting took place quite publicly no cordon was formed at all for a number of poles from parce we were standing directly by the site they were then ordered presumably by Hofmann to bury the Jews who had been shot in a half to finished bunker so again you got some of the Jews had been consolidated in these ghettos and now there anyone that’s not any Jew that’s not the ghetto they’re out hunting them here’s another version of it in cases where the farmyard and the Jewish lodgings could be reached quickly I drove into the farmyard at high speed and the police sprang out and immediately rushed to the Jewish lodgings then all the Jews present at the time were driven out and shot in the farmyard near a haystack potato pit or dung heap the victims were almost always naked and were shot in the neck or while lying on the ground now even as this was taking place there’s still people that are trying to avoid the shooting back to the book the tactic of keeping ones distance was invoked by Heinrich Freud to explain how he avoided shooting on all but one occasion one always had a certain freedom of movement of a few meters and from experience I noticed very quickly that the platoon leader almost always chose the people standing next to him either us always attempted to take position as far as possible from the center of events others likewise sought to avoid shooting by staying in the background so there’s still guys that are not not there trying to do the best not to participate again if they do anything to stop it no but this this is a great kind of a wrap on the on the Jew hunt and what this was like back to the book the Jew hunt was not a brief episode it was a tenacious remorseless ongoing campaign in which the hunters tracked down and killed their prey in direct and personal confrontation it was not a passing phase but an existential condition of constant readiness and intention to kill every last Jew who could be found now we’re gonna cover this last massacre that took place and Jews had been sent from two to a prison camp to be executed and and they were rounded up I think it’s a place called lightly Beck and they were sent to be executed and the police battalion is now acting as kind of guards and accessories to this to make sure that the executions these mass executions take place correctly going back to the book as the Jews pass between the chain of reserve policemen into the camp music blared from two loudspeaker trucks despite the attempt to drown out other noise the sound of steady gunfire could be heard from the camp the Jews were taken to the last row of barracks where they undressed arms raised hands clasped behind their necks totally naked they were led in groups from the barracks through a hole cut in the fence to the trenches that had been dug behind the camp this route was guarded by men from the reserve Police Battalion 101 stationed only 10 metres from the graves Heinrich böll cult of first company witnessed the killing procedure quote from my position I could now observe how the Jews were driven naked from the barracks by other members of our battalion the shooters of the execution commandos who sat on the edge of the graves directly in front of me were members of the SD and the SD is like the SS Intel Intelligence Group the SD some distance behind each shooter stood several other SD men who constantly kept the magazines of the submachine guns filled and handed them to each shooter a number of shooters were assigned to each brave today I can no longer provide details about the number of graves it is possible that there were many such graves we’re shooting took place simultaneously I definitely remember that the naked Jews were driven directly into the graves and forced to lie down quite precisely on top of those who had been shot before them the shooter then fired off a burst at these prone victims how long the action lasted I can no longer say with certainty presumably it lasted the entire day because I remember that I was relieved once from my post I can give no details about the number of victims but there were an awful lot of them it’s it’s it’s almost incomprehensible to imagine that you’re one of these Jews getting forced you’re naked lay down go into this pit lay down on top of those other people that were just shot so you can be shot to another witness martin Detmold quote because i was a group leader and could move about more freely i won once directly to the execution site and saw how the newly arriving jews had to lie down on those already shot they were then likewise shot with bursts from submachine guns the SD men took care that the jews were shot in such a way that there were inclines in the piles of corpses enabling the newcomers to lie down on the corpses piled as much as three meters high the whole business was the most gruesome I have ever seen in my life because I was frequently able to see that after a burst of a burst had been fired the Jews were only wounded and those still living were more or less buried alive beneath the corpses of those shot later without the wounded being given so-called mercy shots I remember that from out of the pile of corpses the SS men were cursed by the wounded and that was sort of the final participation of 101 battalion and here we get to there how it kind of wrapped up at the conclusion of the urn fest massacres the district of Lublin was for all practical purposes Juden free free of Jews the murderous participation of reserve battalion Reserve Police Battalion 101 in the final solution came to an end with a conservative estimate of 6 500 Jews shot during earlier actions like those at Yosef oaf and Lamaze II and 1000 shot during the Jew hunts and a minimum estimate of three thousand thirty thousand five hundred Jews shot at Maj neg and ponies wah the battalion had participated in the direct shooting deaths of at least thirty eight thousand Jews with the death camp deportation of at least three thousand Jews from my direct in early May 1943 the number of Jews they had placed on trains to Treblinka had risen to forty five thousand for a battalion of less than five hundred men the ultimate body count was at least eighty three thousand Jews unbelievable and here he asked the question back to the book why did most men in Reserve Police Battalion 101 become killers while only a minority of perhaps 10% and certainly no more than 20% did not a number of explanations have been invoked in the past to explain such behavior wartime brutalization racism segmentation and routinization of the task special selection of the perpetrators career ISM obedience to orders deference to Authority ideological in Shaw indoctrination and conformity these factors are applicable in varying degrees but none without qualifications there he’s trying to now figure out why these people did what they did and those that’s a list of all the kind of excuses or reasons I should say of why these men behave this way talks a little bit about overall kind of war crimes here back to the book many of the most notorious wartime atrocities the Japanese rampage through Manila the American slaughter of prisoners and mutilation of corpses on many Pacific Islands and the massacre at meal I involved a kind of battlefield frenzy soldiers who inert and who were a nerd to violence numb to the taking of human life embittered over their own casualties and frustrated by the tenacity of an insidious and seemingly inhuman enemy sometimes exploded and at other times grimly resolved to have their revenge at first opportunity so that’s one type of it for me what’s that called when a like non premeditated murder Yeah right like just you know the guy comes home and his wife’s with some other guy and boom he goes curtain goes battlefield frenzy yeah that’s one kind now we talked about this premeditated back to the book other kinds of atrocity lacking the immediacy of the battlefield frenzy and fully expressing official government policy decidedly weren’t standard operating procedures firebombing of German Japanese cities the enslavement of and murderous maltreatment of foreign laborers in German camps and factories or along the cm Burma railroad the reprisal shooting of a hundred civilians for every German soldier killed by partisan attack in Yugoslavia or elsewhere in Eastern Europe these were not the spontaneous explosions or cruel revenge of brutalized men but the methodical executed policies of government both kinds of atrocities occurred in the brutalizing context of war but the men who carry out atrocity by policy are in a different state of mind they act not out of frenzied bitterness and frustration but with calculation clearly the men of Reserve Police Battalion 101 in implementing the systematic Nazi policy of exterminating European Jewry belong in a second category except for a few of the oldest men who were veterans of World War one and a few NCOs who had been transferred from Poland to Poland from Russia the men of the battalion had not seen battle or encountered a deadly enemy most of them had not fired a shot in anger or even been fired upon much less lost comrades in fighting at their side thus wartime brutalization through prior combat was not the median experience directly influencing the policeman’s behavior at yosef wolf once the killing began however the men became increasingly brutalized as in combat the horrors of initial of the initial encounter eventually became routine and the killing became promised progressively easier in a sense in this sense brutalization was not the cause but the effect of the men’s behavior so he’s kind of saying look like what you said these guys aren’t fighting an enemy they hadn’t lost their buddy that I did revenge you know they’re not avenging their buddy that got killed next to him blown up by an ie D and now they’re going to take it out on on this group that they capture it’s not like that back to the book as John Gower has observed the dehumanization of the other contributed immeasurably to the psychological distancing that facilitated killing distancing not frenzy and brutalization is one of the keys to the behavior of the reserved busy police battalion 101 war and negative racial stereotyping or two mutually reinforcing factors in this distancing so in order to kill these people you got to distance yourself from them you can’t you can’t see them as human you can’t see them as people many scholars of the Holocaust especially Raul hilberg have emphasized the bureaucratic and administrative aspects of the destruction process this is very interesting this approach emphasizes the degree to which modern bureaucratic life fosters a functional and physical distancing in the same way that war and negative racial stereotype promote a psychological distancing between perpetrator and victim so you form this bureaucratic machine that you’re only a little piece of it you know all you’re doing is collecting people all your doings put them in trains you’re not killing anybody yeah you’re all you’re doing is rounding them up all you’re doing is guarding buzz they’re getting pushed down to the into the grades that’s not you yeah it’s a big bureaucratic machine you’re not well you’re just a little piece of it back to the book indeed many of the perpetrators the Holocaust were so-called desk murderers whose role in the mass extermination was greatly facilitated by the bureaucratic nature of their participation their jobs frequently consisted of tiny steps in the overall killing process and they perform them in routine manner never seeing the victims at their actions affected segmented routinized and depersonalized the job of the bureaucratic the bureaucrat or specialist whether it involved confiscating property scheduling trains drafting legislation sending telegrams or compiling less lists could be performed without confronting them reality of mass murder such a luxury of course was not enjoyed by the men of Reserve Police Battalion 101 who were quite literally sad in the blood of victims shot at point-blank range no one confronted the reality of mass murder more directly than the men in the woods of Yosef oaf segmentation and routinization the D personalizing aspects of the bureaucratic of the bureaucratic caused killing cannot explain the battalions initial behavior there so again he’s saying look that makes sense you turn this into a big bureaucratic thing but that’s not what happened here with these guys the facilitating psychological effect of a division of labor for the killing process was not totally negligible however so then he talks about the fact that they did make those adjustments and take the killing out of their hands somewhat and that did make it easier for them now he talks about you know one of the things he mentioned early on and why this happened he talks about special selection of the right people well that doesn’t really hold true either because here we go back to the book the case for special selection of officers is even more difficult to make by ss standards major trap was a patriotic German but traditionally an overly sentimental what and not Nazi Germany was scornfully considered both weak and reactionary so you can’t say it was the selection people and we already talked about all the different types of normal people that we’re doing this but they didn’t they didn’t pull some truck driver in Hamburg out and said just that’s 38 years old and say this guy’s going to be perfect no big dignity they didn’t do that back to look reserved Police Battalion was not sent to Loveland to murder Jews because it was composed of men specifically selected or deemed particularly suited for the task on the contrary the battalion was the dregs of the manpower pool available at that stage of war it was employed to kill Jews because it was the only kind of unit available for such behind the line duties many studies of Nazi killer suggested a different kind of selection namely self selection to the party and the SS by unusually violence-prone people shortly after the war Theodor Adorno and many others and others developed a notion that there’s a thorium personality so they started looking at the there’s certain people that have that that are susceptible to having this type of personality they made up something called the F scale which is is like your propensity to have a thorium personality here’s some of the ingredients there back to look rigid adherence to conventional values submissiveness to authoritarian figures aggressiveness toward out-groups opposition to introspection reflection and creativity a tendency to superstition and stereotyping preoccupation with power and toughness destructiveness and cynicism so these are the kind of things that they’re saying that these types of personalities would become Nazis because that’s the type of personality they have there’s another kind of kind of to make this as simple as possible a guy named zygmunt bauman has summed up this approach as follows Nazism was cool because Nazis were pool and the Nazis were cool because cool people tend to become Nazis again these are theories mmm I don’t think you can apply that to a truck driver from Hamburg mmm-hmm that got that got drafted they didn’t even self-select I got drafted yep told okay you need to be in the in the army here yeah Norris Battaglia it’s almost like it’s not necessarily you know him a person being a truck driver is like you know this this exclusionary occupation it’s more like just because they’re a truck driver it just doesn’t mean anything like if that’s not enough factor the factor I become anything when they talked about all these people from Hamburg anything that they talked about none of those it’s not like we got a bunch of guys that were just that worked at a slaughterhouse yeah yeah like we’re going to recruit all these people from slaughterhouses no recruit hunters we didn’t they didn’t recruit football players because they’re aggressive no just wait it was just random any job and they showed up there so you know basically what I’m getting out of this is you saying like no it’s like you can’t really say it’s that either right because it’s a waiter yeah a salesperson but at the same time the guy who’s a waiter could have these other qualities you know like how your tongue yeah but you take 500 people from Hamburg between the ages of 35 and 40 you’re not going to find that like all these guys had those like kind of yeah fascist qualities about manner and not Appling yeah men some people become this is Eric or sorry Earvin snob accepts the notion that some people become perpetrators as a result of their personality they are self selected and he says that under particular circumstances most people have a capacity for extreme violence and destruction of human life it’s an interesting one under certain circumstances everyone has prevents atif or violence I’m sure we there’s people that would argue that in all different directions but you know you take a a middle-aged woman that’s never been in a fistfight before and you have somebody attack and her child that’s going to kill or harm their child and you see a propensity for violence and from a lot of them yeah yeah maybe even observe me you know what 99% sure I’m gonna say 99% I’ll go with that do ya yeah 99% if you’re if it’s a middle-aged woman who has someone that’s about to severely hurt or kill their child and their way to stop it is with a pistol right my assessment is we’re going to 99% love that perpetrators getting killed yeah like with with specific effort towards like the violent part of it you know like um you know I don’t I’m not saying on a movie necessarily but you know that old thing let’s say imagine that scenario like that where the lady’s gonna you know shoot this guy cuz guys attacking the kids or something it won’t be like oh let me do the bare minimum force you know just to eliminate the threat she’s probably gonna be kind of she was overboard killing that guy can’t kill him extra yeah yeah because that’s kind of the violence coming out of someone it’s one thing to do because I’m scared and oh my gosh get away from me kind of thing that’s not violence there so it’s that’s really the question when you consider a million middle-aged girl you know you know having a propensity surviving I don’t think she’s going to do extra I think she’s gonna kill him go and go grab her kid and make sure kids safe right I don’t see this extra level you know desecration of the body or anything like that I’d say I’m going to make my kids safe yes Lee you’re saying the propensity for violence in that case is just the mere act of killing the guy yeah well yeah that’s that’s that’s it yeah but you know like I’m thinking of a movie for whatever reason kiddo that’s only the brain is filled with but television in general but you know the girl she’s like scared it’s all done out of fear you know and I’m sure it’s almost like the violence has just happened since it’s not her propensity for violence necessarily but it’s just a matter but I’m just saying if you set up an experiment yes where you took a middle-aged group of women yeah they had children yeah I think you put them in a scenario where you know it was either the either the kid dies or they kill the perpetrator right you know not like a hey I might be able to bait them out of it no the axe is in the air it’s going to be swung down on the kid right right you have to press this button to go to kill that guy yeah where violence is the choice island is right choice yeah I think the propensity is going to be 99 and I’m gonna go even higher okay so this then he gets into some of these real famous experiments kind of sociological experiments that one of them’s Isambard owes Stanford Prison Experiment you’ve heard of that everyone’s heard of that where they basically take people and divide them up and just randomly and actually I didn’t know this because I never did any research on the study but they kind of do a pre-screening to make sure that there’s no extreme personalities everyone that was everyone I was like I mean what however you could you could frame the word normal the people that participate in the experiment are just like normal people they’d have any extreme personalities well those kind of semi normal people they put them in that prison experiment and sure enough some people were made guards some people were made prisoners and they had to get him to do certain things and there’s a certain number I mean didn’t take long for the guards I think it took six days some of the guards turn sadistic evil right and here we go back to the most dramatic and distressing to us was the observation of the ease with which sadistic behavior could be elicited in individuals who are not sadistic types the prison situation alone Zimbardo concluded was a sufficient condition to produce abhorrent antisocial behavior that’s from the guards from the guards so this is pretty scary that another back here pointed out about that only two ie less than 20% emerged as good guards who did not punish prisoners even as they an even gets a small favor form so those numbers are pretty in line with this really small percentage of people that just they’re just good people yeah right it’s only 10 to 20 percent of actual good people how’s that make you feel about the human race not real good yeah and not real good all right another thing put out here back to the book among the perpetrators of course orders have traditionally been most frequently cited explanation for their own behavior so remember orders orders orders were orders and no one in such a political climate could be expected to disobey them they insisted this is a this is the guards I mean sorry this is a police to put a lien saying look we’re in order to do this stuff we’re just following orders we hear that all the time disobedience surely meant the concentration camp if not immediate execution possibly for their families as well so they’re saying look if we would we’re ended up in the concentration camps ourselves through this now now he points this out back to the book there is a general problem with this explanation however quite simply in the past 45 years no defense attorney or defendant in any of the hundreds of post war trials has been able to document a single case in which refusal to obey an order to kill unarmed civilians resulted in the allegedly inevitable dire punishment so there’s no precedent for that now I I don’t think that these guys out there in the battalion are sitting there thinking about this was like legal perspective right well actually there’s no precedent for you know punishment being carried out on people I’ve been on with you I think that’s a stretch yeah I think that’s a stretch well when you’re talking about like maybe someone contemplating using these guys that were saying I couldn’t refuse the orders because I would get punished right and he’s saying that there’s no precedent right that you actually will get this severe punishment houses you know right when you’re you know that that’s a yeah that’s a precedence you don’t you just think yeah I don’t want to get in trouble yeah you’re not thinking about the the time you remember the guy that you’ve heard of getting killed yeah nothing into that you think like you’re even more so you’re not thinking about the fact that you’ve never heard of that before yeah yeah yeah all right now so we’re talking about obedience of orders and here we go back to the okay so obedience to orders out of fear of dire punishment is not a valid explanation what about obedience to Authority in the more general sense used by Stanley Milgram deference simply as a product of socialization and evolution a deeply ingrained behavior tendency to comply with the directives of those positioned hierarchically above them even to the point of performing repugnant actions in violation of universally accepted moral norms so you’ve heard of the Milgram experiments no these are these are kind of like the Stanford prism pretty famous and what he did was he set up these experiments where he had couldn’t see these actors were behind a wall but I favor can ask questions and the the if they answer the question wrong they would get a little electric shock that was done by the person I was being experimented on uh-huh so you know I would be they say okay Jocko you got this guy named Zach oh he’s over there gonna ask him a question if he gets it wrong get him which is shock I can’t see you but I can hear you mmm so when I shock you and and every question that you get wrong I have to escalate the level of shock so I’m getting worse and worse and worse and worse and your reaction is more and more horrific as these things escalate right like you’re the guy the experimenters Otterbein is on me yeah there’s no right well shock okay gotcha so and you’re actually going through a series of complaints I’ll read this year there was an escalating series of fake electric shocks upon a victor a victim who responded with carefully programmed voice feedback an escalating series of complaints cries of pain call for help and finally fateful silence in the standard voice feedback experiment two-thirds of Milgram subjects were obedient to the point of inflicting extreme pain several variations on the experiment produced significantly different results if the actor / victim was shielded so that the subject could hear and see no response obedience muscle was much greater so if I couldn’t hear you and I just knew that I was shocking the hell out of you I was good with it if the subject had both visual and voice feedback compliance fell to the compliance to the extreme fell to 40% so down from 66% to 40% if the subject had had to touch the actor / victim physically by forcing his hand onto an electric plate to deliver the shocks obedience drop to 30% now this is this is fascinating if a non authority figure gave orders obedience was nil so if some guy was like hey you know am bill I’m running the experiment um hey Jacques this guy if the guy was no authority they got no they no none no bees so that shows you and that’s from a leadership perspective that’s very important and it’s important to understand how much influence you have when you’re in a leadership position and I run this all time and I ran into in the SEAL Teams when a guy doesn’t recognize the the power of his rank and he doesn’t recognize that just by wearing his rank when he says something people kind of like gonna do it they’re gonna go well they want to do it right so then going back to the book here if the naive subject performed a subsidiary or accessory task but did not personally inflict the electric shocks obedience was nearly total so that goes down to the division of labor again if it was just me saying okay I asked him a question you have to shock him again and some other guy was shocking you I go straight to 100 straight to you all under tinkled in contrast if the subject up here was part of an if the subject was part of an actor peer group that staged carefully planned refusal to continue to follow the directions of the authority figure the vast majority of subjects 90 percent joined their peer group and desist and desist as well so that’s the tipping point thing if there was other so if it was if it was three of us that were conducting the experiment on you and the other and I was the the the naive guy that doesn’t know what’s going on I’m the one that they were actually doing the experiment on and there’s two guys two actors that are in the room with me and they’re gonna be like hey man we shouldn’t be doing this and the other guy goes yeah man that looks like it’s really hurting we should have stopped this 90% of time I go yeah you guys are right yeah psychology group psychology if the subject was given complete discretion as to the level of electric shock to administer all but a few sadists consistently delivered a minimal shock when not under direct surveillance of the scientist many subjects cheated by giving lower shocks than prescribed even though they were unable to confront Authority and abandon the experiment so they give lower self so they wouldn’t walk away from it they wouldn’t just say I’m not gonna do this yeah so everyone’s really you know what it is we’re all just on the edge vent it away yeah like and we kind of need each other in that way too well if it’s again this is you know this is about leadership it’s amazing how influential or how influenceable people are they’re so ready for influence are so ready to be told like a man we shouldn’t be doing this yeah it’s the same thing we saw with the with the broadcast on the meal I masker all it took was one officer saying stop killing and everyone okay stop killing right everyone dealing with they just need to get nudged in that direction and by the way they had already been nudged in the other direction which is kill everyone they said okay go go yeah and that’s what I mean by they I don’t mean on the edge of like standing that’s I mean on the fence yeah that’s my leadership is so important because I’m walking around with people all over the world and whatever position you’re in regardless if it’s in a work environment if it’s a social environment if it’s with your friend your peer group you have so much power over people just by being a leader and by using that influence to work people one way or the other yeah it’s crazy yeah it is crazy going back to the book to what were the vast majority of traps men responding to when they did not step out was it the authority as represented by either trap or his superiors were they responding to trap not primarily as an authority figure but as an individual a popular and beloved officer who name assumed who they would not leave in the lurch what about other factors Milgram himself notes that far that people far more frequently invoke authority than conformity to explain their behavior for the only the former seems to absolve them of personal responsibility and he quotes here subjects denied conformity and embrace obedience as the explanation of their actions so people don’t like to say everyone else was doing it right because I don’t like to say that because that did that veins I’m responsible for it if you don’t like to take ownership of things mm-hmm we have a book called extreme ownership people won’t like to take ownership of things instead they want to say as soon as I blame something I Boston this is one of the you know big things in extreme ownership leading up the chain of command it’s so II to blame your boss because how can I control my boss I’ll follow you know how hard was bothering to do this that’s why we failed a mission I was told to do so he didn’t give me the right gear that’s what we hear this all the time and and and Milgram says it too no one wants to say hey you know what I decided I was going to do what everyone else was doing yeah that’s my decision instead they put that decision on the other guy on the boss man yes you know another exploration here back to the book direct proximity to the horror of killing significantly increased the number of men who would no longer comply on the other hand with the division of labor and removal of the killing process to the death camps the men felt scarcely any responsibility at all for further actions the same thing Milgram figured out no I got someone else is pressing the button over there that’s shocking you I’m good with it yeah keep rolling now one thing that Milgram kind of talks about is his the kind of indoctrination of what kind of what kind of ideological justification did he give to his people that’s really just pre-existing in Milgram’s experiment sees are just kind of normal people so what about with the Nazis and what kind of indoctrination is they get brainwashed right we talked about this a little bit already but back to the book all ordered police battalions were to be strengthened in character and ideology one topic for the first week they went through like a school of education ideological education one topic for the first week was race as the basis of our worldview followed by as the second week maintaining the purity of blood so there you go these guys are being indoctrinated but the reason that that argument doesn’t really hold much weight is because of they got the way the who the people were back to the book whatever the merits of such an argument it clearly does not hold for the predominantly middle-aged men of reserved belief is Police Battalion 101 they were they were educated and spent their formative years in the pre 1933 period many came from a social Malu that was relatively unreceptive to National Socialism they were they knew perfectly all the moral norms of German society before the Nazi so you can’t really blame it on them being brainwashed so here’s how here’s how Browning wraps up with this book I’m going to close it out the behavior of any human being is of course a very complex phenomenon and the historian who attempts to explain it is indulging in a certain arrogance when nearly 500 men are involved to undertake any general explanation of their collective behavior is even more hazardous what then is one to conclude most of all one comes away from the story of reserve Police Battalion 101 with a great unease this story of ordinary men is not the story of all men the reserve policeman faced choices and most of them committed terrible deeds but those who killed cannot be absolved by the notion that anyone in the same situation would have done as they did for even among them some refuse to kill and others stopped killing human responsibility is ultimately an individual matter at the same time however the collective behavior of reserve Police Battalion 101 has deeply disturbing implications there are many societies afflicted by traditions of racism and caught in the siege mentality of war or threat of war everywhere society conditions people to respect and defer to Authority and indeed could scarcely function otherwise everywhere people seek career advancement in every modern society the complexity of life and the resulting bureaucratization and specialization ten you ate the sense of personal responsibility of those implementing official policy with in virtually every social collective the peer group exerts tremendous pressures on behavior and sets moral norms if the men of Reserve Police Battalion 101 could become killers under such circumstances what group of men cannot and there you have it and I think those are some extremely important warnings that are laid out there I mean obviously the first one we have to be aware of traditions of racism and the threat of war and I think those are pretty obvious and stand out pretty clearly yeah I think the other ones are a little bit trickier right I think we got to watch out for the fact that we are conditioned to respect and defer to Authority I said that no and I actually you know I when I grew up I was a rebellious kid and I listened to rebellious music and I reserved a Bellies kid I talked about that and I think that was very beneficial for me in my military career and I explained that all the time that I asked questions if I don’t believe in something I’m gonna ask questions and by the way I don’t I want the people that work for me or with me I want them to ask questions to I don’t want to be surrounded by yes men and I’m not going to be yes men never was let me copy yet that not that I never was because sometimes you got to be a yes man in order to get the inner circle where you can actually have influence hmm so have I played that game before yes I have yeah boss that sounds like good plan yeah boss yeah that sounds good plan oh I trust Chalkley agrees with me all the time hey boss you’re going off the rails over here you stop it oh I’m gonna listen Jocko because he listens to me so have I played that game before yes of course I have so we need to be careful that we don’t submit always to Authority the hard thing to raise your kids with too right yes because you want your kids to submit to your authority but you don’t want them to yeah I have to always remind myself when they rebel against me I have to say to myself good because I want them to ask questions I want them to question authority and I want them to just obey right yeah and it freaks people out it freaks people out when you say we all go and work with a company and I’ll be saying like no I want your people you want your people to ask questions if you want to just order them around and they’re just going to obey you first of all I’m not going to help you there because that’s not a system that’s functional it’ll be functional for a week it’ll be functional for two weeks but eventually we’ll have people that don’t understand why they’re doing what they’re doing they don’t put their effort to it they can’t make decisions on their own and you end up with a bad team yeah we don’t want that kind of authoritarian leadership anywhere and certainly not not anywhere again does that work for five minutes does it work for a week yeah because it is sometimes needed because people got a we got to get something done right now yeah but you better follow that up with some non authoritarian leadership with with explaining and building relationships with people yeah that explanations they make is to talk about all the time we’re explaining why explain why I’m telling you to do this it’s important because of this is X Y Z and it and I’m speaking from a perspective of being a parent how effective that is you just say this is why you do it well does your daughter know yeah works already effective the four-year-old yeah and even Vivi mornings you can’t always rationalize the four-year-old sometimes I just want that cookie yeah if there’s no y about it it was strangely with the blue we have situation right now where her cousin is in and me you know he put in a nutshell his diet isn’t quite it um as she’s not only not a pro not on the program like how my daughter is program but you know I still eat junk food or whatever right and it’s kind of part of the experience I understand where you know hey cousins in from out of town it’s a little bit more festive you know new sentence yeah so after a while I started realizing like a cousin show up in my house again on the program it should be like that so after a while I was like hey do you know we this is too many treats going on these days you know Peggle ever to drop I had every little bit and so when I told my daughter I was like no you know we’re not gonna do this and I explained why you could tell she didn’t she wasn’t happy with it but she totally understood four years old where and I did it in a way where um it wasn’t like you reference where the warrior gave me – she was wearing that shirt to school today oh by the way well then that’s coincidentally win right there easy money yeah but um it was it what I didn’t scare you no idea I wasn’t like oh then you’re gonna be a loser or something you know something like that I could say to each other oh you might as well just go hasn’t volunteer for type 2 diabetes yeah thank you good and then I learned that from yeah yeah I know exactly when they went there but it was just the kind you know like where my older kids do it – my younger daughter yeah you’re gonna get type 2 diabetes uh the peer pressure he’s all that group she thinks she’s gonna get it today yeah you know I decide effective or ineffective done great that’s your thing no but it anyway the point being it is it is effective aspect I think yet you know like how you say – you don’t have to be a dick about it it’s not a scolding not nothing like that it’s a full-on explanation actually understand – contrary to that it’s the other end of the spectrum yeah yeah using I’m talking to you because I care about you so much you know I want you to be healthy yeah that’s the only reason I’m talking to you you every kid you like your parents say that say those exact words I do this because I care about you meanwhile they’re yelling at you there’s a mankini as’ and the employers do it to bosses do that to touches for your girl ya know the first thing they do is they want to jump down someone’s throat and then everyone’s reaction is the same – that yeah one likes it no one likes it whereas if you take a different approach and you say hey echo you know what I’m talking to you right now it’s not kind of mad at you it’s because I’m actually I see nothing but potential with you yeah that’s what I see and when I when I see that you’re not making the like you’re not making many videos it’s not because I’m I’m thinking myself oh I want more videos the reason I’m thinking is because I actually see how much potential you have and you could really do some powerful stuff and have some huge influence dang but just all right Jocko as opposed to you better make more videos yeah where else I’m gonna have my kid do it will you be lazy bro exactly then you be like fine Africa do then won’t be as good man yeah yeah exactly so that’s not what that’s not the game we’re playing here yeah I know I just see a lot of potential in you and I think you could make more videos thank you so much so you got to watch out for obeying before you’ve got a question authority all the time and you’ve been he talks about people seeking career advancement there’s another big one hmm and it’s not little big one I say no to right there’s such a much better way to get career advancement and that is by doing a good job yeah that’s how you get career advancement by instead of seeking career advancement to seek to do good job seek to make a difference seek to do what is right the career is going to come in one form of the other now might you get passed up might some other guy that too did his own horn and took the credit might that happen yes it might happen you might you might get delayed but that guy is going to continue to build that reputation and the boss is missed it on the first round of advancements so he got it maybe even gets the second round by the third round they’re looking at him going this guy’s a self-serving loser we need to get him off the team and by the way we realized that the guy that’s been behind all his work as echo over there so we’re going to promote him now now you’re going to win now you’ve got a really solid reputation he’ll book so you can’t but the the the idea of seeking career advancement you see in the military all done there’s people that are just trying to get advanced trying to get advanced trying to get on cara’s who’s back they’re stepping on and I’m telling you I saw some of those guys get advanced in in my community they danced up through the ranks they were stepping on people’s backs to get their the reputation eventually was so bad that it didn’t get them propel they didn’t propel as far as they wanted to look great guys but guys that were really truly just trying to do the best for the community those guys got promoted and they would make it you know the furthest yeah because their reputation was so solid yeah and everyone knew that these guys were doing the right things the right reason not so they could get promoted but they ended up getting four yeah yeah promotions more like a like a eventualities yet eventualities yeah just like jiu-jitsu if you’re just trying to get your belt yeah and that’s what you’re trying to prove that’s not gonna work out well for you getting mad another game I can loaded you might get your belt before some other white belt could you you know showing off all the time yeah but eventually you’re showing off all the time yeah and the coach goes hey man won’t you help everyone or the coach goes hey I see you I see you’re tapping a lot of people out that are the same level as you all the time but you’re not going with anyone that’s harder you want to move to me that your tablet or an outlaw move you know what you might see sometimes is you know I like Mia when you come up through the jiu-jitsu ranks you tu you just do you just find a certain move or handful of moves and you just those move you get better and quicker than other yeah I think we all kind of are in one way or another oh and so this is what if you’re pursuing the belt is what you do the instructors around only do your good move I don’t want to look at yeah you want to look good that’s all you do you know and you did and when you say it’ll show itself later you know so what you what can happen is you get your blue belt you get your purple belt because like you show off to your instructors or wherever and in the turn on Stu by the way like I just realized something about myself I just had a rude awakening uh-huh but what’ll happen is later on you ever get okay so this might be it might have been a long time for you but maybe not so okay so I’m taking I’m training with in I’m sorry I went to class Jeff Glover’s teaching class and Jeff Claire was like hey let’s do this and he does some crazy kind of advanced mean yeah but it takes like if you’re an advanced person you know how that you know how to move your body and Jiu Jitsu cunny in an advanced way you can do the move even though you’ve never done the move before you know that kind of motto is that kind of movies one where you gotta like go between the guy’s legs lift up and into a heel hook or whatever like lime juice so I don’t do that move at all and I’ve been training I’ve been in this game for a long time so I go and I do it in nah I want to say I was surprised but like I could do it I can totally and but Jeff was like whoa I’ll kind of like Dan cuz I’m a bigger guy too you know and that made me think of this kind thing where some guys they can be a black belt and they’ll say hey hey show this room real quick it’ll be a black but I can’t do it because they’ve avoided that and not to say that this is the case all the time I’m just saying that’s like an example of how you can avoid getting better and only show off like X Y Z to get you to that kind of next specific level yeah I don’t know belt or whatever is a similar thing maybe but I realized when you were talking about this what I’ll do mmm-hmm is both with Dean and with Jeff if I do so if I’m doing something that they showed me I’ll like I’ll like call them out like a little kid I’ll be like Jeffrey dig this out yeah I’d be like oh Jesus are you like that one is that I grew up I do it with Dean with my kids well my kids are training you know I’ll say a gene gene check look at that okay you don’t mean very like all happy yeah I’m just happy that yeah I’m learning or that they’re learning yeah that’s but it’s pretty cool when you can pull off what you just learned right yeah yeah a little and it’s cool for a teacher I was no but when somebody does something I showed him big-time so I guess the difference is if in fact this isn’t even the difference um is why did you do that yeah not to get your kid promoted yeah or even to get me promoted cuz I can’t yeah you can’t get promoted right now yeah so I guess I guess it’s sort of like maybe maybe maybe the the negative aspect would be like I’m looking for some credit ran off of the food the little guy moves really differently or whatever yeah no I don’t think it’s I think it’s pretty bad I like to get real eggs I think I’m pretty lame for that yeah so watch out for that watch out for the career advancement don’t let that be the folks your life and it’s guys not going to make you it’s not going to get you what you want now again are there instances where you play the game so that you can move up so that you can have more control yes I did that look I’d be I went from enlisted officer that’s the ultimate in hey I’m gonna play the game I’m gonna get more I want to I want to be in charge more stuff so how am I gonna do that I’m gonna become a skip all these ranks we become an officer I did that yeah I played that game mm-hmm I is about my career but I was about my career so I could make you know 15 guys in the seal platoon happy yeah because I was happy when I had a good leader in my seal platoon the other one he talks about here is this bureaucratization specialization attenuating the sense of personal responsibility this is another thing that we have to be careful of just because you’re part of a system doesn’t mean you should just you know blame the system when something goes wrong you know if you’re working somewhere and something isn’t going hey it’s the way we do it hey that’s the way the system works hey we can’t change that and I never accepted that as an answer and I’ll tell you what though when you come up against that you can’t the way you fight it when you come up against as you build a relationship right so any you ever even have a you’re trying to deal with some customer service or something and you’re getting them sorry again we can’t help you yeah and you go down to the store like hey what’s going on hey bill am jockle man I called you earlier I just I got to get this thing resolved here’s what’s going on you don’t go down there and say you need to take care of this no you say hey Bill what’s going on hey I’m Jacques oh yeah man I really like the piece of gear but man it worked good there’s a couple issues I have with I’m trying to get them resolved because you know my daughter’s birthday is in two weeks not either you don’t mean yeah relationship with them yeah yeah let’s get the bureaucratic don’t let them stay in their big bureaucratic system yeah we don’t want to let that happen because then you’d in the bureaucratic machine then then they’re not they’re not the ones that are offending you it’s the machine they can’t control machine stop that machine there’s part of machine where you want to you know with this concept fundamentally is the same as this you know when you’re in traffic you know and you’re trying to get over kind of oh yeah yeah yeah and you want to get in the lane but you know from the other guys perspective or the other cars perspective this car is trying to cut me off this car mm this cars going to get in my way right but you get your whoever you’re riding with all you got to get to roll down the window make eye contact with person and be like hey just leave Adam or something look I’m a person you’re a person yeah we’re not standing in line we’re not sending light we’re just working the same job yeah you just give them that that hint of a personal element I’ll let you write in the wave you in you way back you guys are friends that and before giving my two seconds before that you’re pissed yeah like this much like to get in front of me and there’s no reason to be mad about that by the way it’s not like you’re standing in line I get there yeah he’s got to be somewhere too you’re going the same direction in the rush yeah but you got to put it on your deal same thing step out of the machine man meaning trust step out hey I’m a person you’re person yes don’t make the personal relationships up and down the chain of command throughout your company don’t let the don’t let the finance department you’re right yeah the department the Ollis them my name is support all they shot us down on this thing yeah give me the name who did that I’m gonna walk down there and Tim yes see what the marketing department won’t give us any more okay cool let’s find out who that is there’s not a bureaucratic reason it’s not a marketing department I seen no ill bills in their cleansers and we need when bill knows what you’re trying to do I know is that you are trying to make something happen you made that connection and we’re good to go Bill’s going to take care of you no reason to freak out the other thing finally here is this this idea of this peer group this social collective peer pressure we all know it exists and that’s fine but make it good by peer pressure is powerful it’s powerful and the good thing is you get to control it in both directions you need to recognize it when it’s happening you in a negative way and then you need to use it in a positive way to help people do good things use peer pressure peer pressure’s legit for making people do positive things Zig to what you don’t want to do is use peer pressure to make people do negative things and there’s a lot of that in the world then I’ll tell you why there’s a certain part of people that don’t like to see other people succeed yeah so they go man just come out tonight dude but dude I gotta work in the morning dude just come out yeah who’s gonna get a couple drinks yeah here’s another one let’s you shot you’re always on that diet yeah hey hey loosen up lighten up yeah they want a son there’s that there’s a certain part of people that want to see everyone else fail yeah and if you’re you got to pay attention that yourself yes you got to pay attention to that in your own self because if you don’t you won’t realize it yeah but you actually I’ve seen people give other people bad advice because they’re jealous they’re jealous certain programs I think of a cop friend of mine was going for a certain program in the military and he came Lee said man I was going to try this program but a couple guys are telling me I shouldn’t and I said bro that is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard they are jealous they are jealous they don’t want you to this program because it’s gonna make you more successful go do the program huh and he said ok and he did it chuckle peer pressure yeah Desilu I want to give peer pressure of goodness you had a Baptists and and the thing is I mean I guess you could look at peer pressure in a way is its leadership whether you’re standing up to it or whether you’re spreading the positive peer pressure that’s leadership and that’s what we’re here to do man yeah we’re here to do we’re need and when you use that in a positive way you can prevent this kind of it’s kind of sick sadistic horrible horrific events like this like we read about today from happening images it’s it’s crazy that this that this occurred yeah and it’s crazy that it you know even even throughout the book a hand it it’s just referring to the Jews right it’s just referring to the Jews the Jews the Jews lined up the Jews laid down the Jews gotten got shot in the back the neck the Jews the Jews the Jews let’s remember that every single one of those Jews was the name was a person right was bill was you know we do the same thing we’re putting them in a sort of big chunk of machinery yeah that they’re just they’re part of the product of what’s out over here and yeah don’t do it on either side yeah or you’ll ride and they said don’t let it happen in traffic don’t let it happen in your life don’t do it that’s what leadership is about it really is and leadership the thing about leadership is leadership is happening at all times the minute you are interacting with another person leadership is taking place you’re either being led which is fine or you leading which is fine as long as you’re going in the right direction but if you constantly think in the end you’re leading yourself by the way of course you’re leading yourself you’re constantly leading yourself but the minute you meet with someone else there’s a leadership situation happening you either leading that person or you’re being led and that’s okay it’s okay to be led as long as you’re being led in the right direction if you start seeing yourself being led in the wrong direction and you go with it you’re at fault yeah you’re at fault you can’t blame that person you went along with it you’re culpable for your actions so again I know it’s a brutal brutal topic to cover and I’m sure we’ll be back at it again at some point but let’s not let’s not forget that these that this happened and that if we’re not careful it can happen again yeah and you get little things like in way lower levels for it yeah that stuff happens all the time you know like little riots break out you know if normal people just join cars because that’s kind of what everyone’s doing you know two one guys okay stop we gonna stop like okay let me stop here the peer pressure thing that’s why people will you get a workout buddy you know or or you join that’s why CrossFit in a big way is like really it’s a good group getting because everyone’s like hell yeah Kurt you know like the cheer you want you can’t in a way you look forward to just linking up with the group and the group’s talking about like you know doing good stuff yeah working out and and you’re right and as a matter of fact there’s a whole new phenomenon in the fitness world which is basically all stems from crossford then they call it just group exercise right yeah hey we got group exercise gootecks yeah group exercise classes because hey I want to work out with other people I want to have you let go call me up me okay you can make it to class tonight yeah I’m kind of feeling lazy come on bro yeah I’m going yeah okay I don’t want to be weak yeah yeah no you’re pressuring me to be strong that’s good mmm yep true story so use that in a positive way yeah yeah you ever you ever been well you probably oh yeah you probably have we can be honest here you know the kind where you’re like okay I’m gonna link up with whoever to go train or to go workout whatever and you’re like dang I don’t really when the time comes you’re like dang I don’t really feel like it I in the back of my mind I hope that they call and cancel I hope and then they call they don’t cancel they call to confirm mm-hmm and you go you didn’t want to go you go at the end of the workout you’re like dang I almost didn’t I almost didn’t make it today good thing you know that’s common men that have idiots I don’t say people ask me about this a lot you’ve got to recognize you got to start to memorize that good feeling that comes after a good workout yeah so that you don’t have to force yourself through it in anticipation such a good way to put it let’s memorize the field memorize the feeling of like I memorize two feelings one is i memorize how good it feels when you’re done and two I memorize how bad it feels when you’re we good and you say no yeah so that’s a horrible I hate that feeling I hate that feeling of what like I didn’t do it yeah it makes me feel like junk junk I was just on the road and it was like don’t do it I just feel like man I squeezed in a couple workouts at my pretty weak workouts but just to get them done you don’t even just to move the worst thing you can do is be sedentary and I was moving during the day because we were in the water and whatnot yeah yes a little bit but you got to get it done yeah so memorize the feelings there’s nothing worse than a feeling of I slept in well for you that’s right a wrong statement I don’t like the feeling of I slept in and now behind the power curve yeah yeah that don’t like that feeling yeah yeah like you memorized that feeling yeah and then run from it speaking of memorized are you going to go over everything that everyone is memorized you saying at this point when you talk about how I can support the podcaster actually I’m gonna go into a mint yeah I’m gonna go in at a different angle I’m gonna say speaking of peer pressure because this is really what it is the group you peer pressure me you peer pressure everyone on Commission we collectively fear pressure each other and this is what we’re doing we’re working out there’s no reason not to work out no today nowadays not I mean this day today they could be your restaurant you should work out director you should have yes sir you should later even if you haven’t already anyway this is what we’re doing we’re working out yes if we have weight to lose we know if we’re overweight we do you’re gonna work like five pounds overweight think of like your ideal weight think of that if you’re not that hundred and fifty pounds oh it’s my peers ago when you rolled someone that’s massive yeah and you think oh I wish I was this massive I wish I was you know 450 pounds because then you just smash everyone yeah but that might get in the way in other aspects of life like if you’re 450 pounds that would mean what how tall like what six eight no I would want to be like eight foot nine yeah okay so surfing is going to be an issue for you yes okay so to kind of say goodbye to your current knowledge or your current schema of surfing say goodbye to that good point good point that’s just one thing negative point there’s other things so you’re just thinking jujitsu I understand you’re an engine MMA maybe out of the weight classes though yeah yeah so you’d have to fight in your car whatever inside look at a big picture I’ll just be what I am actually you know what that 750 you bro if you want to be that big that’s your ideal weight you go with that don’t 750 pounds on the end that’s really the point the point is you know your ideal weight you do not me you know I don’t have an ideal weight for you maybe I do but it ever you might want me to wear or do they want your pants there exactly right and be less mentally strong but for everyone else we all know how much we want away or you know whatever whatever so this is what we’re doing peer pressure we’re going to do that we’re going to pursue that we’re working out we are getting control of our ego temper and other various weaknesses also to facilitate that we’re taking krill oil if our joints a Sorak that’s what we’re doing we’re problem so ultimately it’s just one big problem solving thing you know so look joints us or krill oil boom joins that so anymore move to the next thing swim say yes so krill oil from on it you want ten percent off the krill oil save money financial discipline equals financial freedom boom we kind of put that right in the whole equation go to on it calm /jo 10% off and support the podcast you know we’re on this thing together kind of thing you know other stuff on on it I took some new mood today interesting I’m not necessarily in a new mood I think I’m in the same mood but I don’t think that’s what it is I think it’s more just you know balancing out your whole stuff yeah I just took it cuz is it there and that’s the kind of thing that I won’t take you don’t want to be balancing I wonder I want current mood thank you I’m curler hey what if you’re feeling angry good yeah then I’m good to go I’m fairly certain it’s for brain health you know in it I think the new mood like mood part of it is more of like a kind of a happenstance kind of cool thing like you know anyway maybe I took some of that I have some of that I’m down for that there’s a bunch of stuff performance stuff you know so if you’re like hey I’m getting after it I want performance supplementation that’s what we’re doing – we’re doing all this stuff as a group so it’s Junko our current leader hmm I think this is a group without a leader until someone tells him to stop then we’re all stopping anyway also good way to support and this is to support yourself and support the group really because you know okay so this book these books all these books read these books sure we didn’t go over it and it’s dope but you know you want to get the book if you want to get the book and you don’t I’m reading for less than 10% of the books yeah 5% it’s like a book report although I might have gone a little bit crazy with Sidney cherry Factory yeah yeah I wonder we just want to do it just full-on the audiobook just snort and I’ll stop seven hours later three and a half yeah that’s it so some good lessons though yeah they’re all they’re all good lessons how many people see you know podcast three hours and 27 minutes and come on Joe come on yeah and how many people actually don’t they say come on Eko because you talked about a shot give up you talk about supports for a there were than two hours and 27 minutes come on that’s not my fault that’s the machine it you know I just did a small little Gary guilty anyway if you want the book or one or whatever uh our website dr podcast com there’s a section a page if you will menu on the top says books from podcast boom click on that click through there take you to Amazon purchase a book that’s a good way to support and you get the book boom also yeah if you’re going to do any other shopping on there hey feel free that’s a good way to support in a solid way and that’s what we’re all doing straight up to now you so it’s real heavy peer pressure on everyone yeah but it is good beer per you said good peer pressure is good well that is good because we’re not you just you just helping yeah I guess it doesn’t cost you anything exactly right boom and that’s what we’re doing also what we’re doing is subscribe eight more you can say I was going to say continue talking all right there you go I will and so subscribe to the podcast that’s what we’re all doing I’m subscribed to the podcast that I’m on you know yeah obviously we’re all going to do it subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already also on YouTube subscribe to the Allen that’s a good one that’s where you make all those things all the videos only you’re doing three videos a week now man that’s already nah three oh just in the future this next podcast video video formats agapao and om come on pick so doing one podcast video and one and then two excerpts two excerpts minimum is what I’m saying okay that’s kind of so we should have a lot of excerpts up there the other and they grow every week you know so the end the benefit to those by the way you can make your extra shorter why because they’re too long a 12-minute excerpts not even an expert the excerpt that’s another five that’s the stage that goes back to the same problem it’s essentially in other ways you need to reel and edit them yeah yeah get the meat tank yeah this mayor amazing isn’t it should just be like boom so much be able to listen to it in 30 seconds and be like oh I got to cut the deal here yes so okay so the problem is with you as you enjoy the you enjoy the arc of the conversation ya see people want to hear the arc of a conversation they just listened the whole podcast maybe I’ve been hanging out with you to go because last week the way you reflecting you could have ended out just that whole you know 45 minutes of whatever same thing you’re getting here yeah so part of that as a joke of a part of is a series so you can you know how like okay I’m Liz I’m listening to your whole little segment and I’m going to cut it right I’ll be like okay I’m going to cut it right here and then your little follow-up comment is cool and then maybe I say something which is like and whatever I can cut myself out easily but then your follow up to me is kind of cool on my a that’s important too I should leave that party so it just turns into this pink vector whatever does only have more chalk or chicken make half chicken medicine your Swiss lion leg there nothing no gets anymore no actually they are but you know that’s an exception sometimes a 12-minute statement there’s a minute the other thing we can read actually actually reshoot like we record just a pertinent parts of you can’t edit it out without like and that’s a step backwards I think is Reagan’s repetitive you know anyway that’s a good way to support subscribe the YouTube channel boom shareable stuff on there in the event of the excerpts not being twelve minutes in them in the event of them being three minutes or so you share more shareable in fact I saw what I really like right after I posted it and then I think he was like Brady maybe he shares it and then I watched it I mean that’s shareable it is I just posted it he shared it and I wanted it you did it cutted it edited it you posted it and then got shared back to do so watched it yeah well technically wasn’t shared to me directly actually technically a while during your work that’s a good externo but so good how I cut the beginning in the end of that anyway stop and start anyway subscribe to YouTube that’s the point that’s what we’re doing also Jaakko is a store it’s called Java Coast or jaw closed or calm so what’s on here is clothing items if you will new shirt out okay so here’s the thing is what we’re doing we’re wearing chocolate podcaster that’s what we’re doing that’s what I’m doing peer pressure’s bigger I’m telling you it’s good beer pressure look dude see this shirt chuckles wearing right now even though it has become a joke oh podcast shirt because we now manufacturing victory MMA and fitness t-shirt to stay old-school to the jockey uniform yeah really yeah that shirts on taco store com this shirt that I’m currently wearing jockle Starcom in fact all the shirts are on chocolate store a guy at the muster had this t-shirt on yeah and the mentee and at first I was like you know I’m a total dick Rita and then uh-oh even cooler I got actor guy but he’s representing for presenting you know that’s uh that’s what we’re doing representing big time and if you I’m nothing buy a shirt I never say buy a shirt jacques letoure come check it out if you like one or more of the items on there including but not limited to shirts get something there’s also rash guards and hoodies kind of I got to replenish those I understand but some rash guards on there and the next hoodies are going to be thick and heavy Alaskan style okay Minnesota style you know what I was thinking aunt Anna style not there’s not not who I stuck a white sock hang quite not going stuff what we get a both because look you can’t exclude the come I know oh my enemies mmm it means the people technically when you think about it comma IANA comma int means land so people people I had yeah I got a pretty good guesser I did yeah there you go kinda play anyway can’t neglect those folks okay you’re cool well we need to make a pirate dial one and uh Anna North northerner sure Sawa yeah yeah the two sides of spectrum dick everybody wants to represent or that’s what we’re all doing you know representing anyway yes some records on there like I said the okay what I was gonna say is Jack chocolate sir and we mentioned it before jock was a shirt now well technically he designed a shirt varying levels of acceptance on my end yeah it’s the echo shirt some people called the dang shirt yeah the echo shirt there’s some layers there you might be able to figure them out technically there’s more layers on this shirt than any other shirt really do the most layered shirt although the fact that I made it as a layer so much its PlayStation uh but well I my evaluation is it’s interesting it was actually impressive the design is impressive like the layers and stuff anyway designed exclusively by jock oh so now I’m a fashion designer yeah correct artists fashion designer you know who woulda thunk I’m neither technically your well I’m not make them not either anyway that one’s on there right now right this very moment don’t down there if you want check it out I’m not saying to bite I’m not saying that I’m thinking I think this shirt is going to be popular with your head on it better it has echoes head on it because there’s a layer in it you got to see it I don’t know I’m saying as though is somebody that was somebody that like doesn’t want to just be forthcoming like for instance a lot of the shirts that we have that have layers to them you don’t know exactly what like no the darkest right no one knows what the have lat it has to do it yeah the Jocko podcast shirt the one that says Jocko podcasts on okay we know there’s there’s there’s some layers there but it’s pretty it’s also pretty forthcoming what it means yes the shirt that I made for you with your head on it no one’s gonna have any idea what that is it’s so people automatically have some good layers there just by wearing that that you it’s not you know it’s gonna have an idea what this is why is that per human’s head on your chest you’re saying external people yes people who do absolutely yeah absolutely people in the game they gonna get the whole thing all of you are wholly cut exactly like if you listen to a band and you just you have a shirt that doesn’t say the band name on it but it’s got the album cover yeah and people know people that know know people that listen to it know right if they listen they know anything with this shirt if they don’t listen they’re not going to know yeah they listen you’re gonna get cred yes yes but yeah that’s a good on anyway chuckles store com that’s gonna that’s what we’re doing also what we’re doing straight up is indium in the moments of weakness that we may or may not have some most have them more than others but what we do is we turn to psychological warfare if you know what that is what is psychological warfare is an album with tracks tracks dig it and these tracks what they do is they give you a spot with any weakness or weak moments you have so if you’re waking up early every single day and that one day comes or whatever that like dang that alarm so or that my bed is extra comfy I’m you know maybe I’ll sleep in you don’t want to have slept in but that’s how you feel it moment that moment of weakness play one of the tracks wake up and get after it I don’t use that particular track I use the workout one so it’s different but it’ll help you through give you that spot just like when you’re and I said this before and this makes perfect sense this is what we’re doing it when we jump on as a bench and we take on lofty challenges on the bench press we’re going to grab a guy to spot us not to say he’s going to touch the bar not to say any of that but we have a lofty challenge so you got the spot to ensure our success so to me if you’re not doing anything if you’re not pursuing anything then this isn’t for you you just got to get up in whatever at whatever time you get up and go to wherever you do whatever you do come home do you think which is cool that’s not what we’re doing though so I say while we do our big things we’re going to get our spot called psychological warfare I’m not saying to use it I’m saying but if you need it you got it to ensure your success it’s okay that’s good thank you appreciate that one yeah yeah thank you a-also you can get jock a white tee on Amazon get some if you want some also origin main comm if you’re getting into jiu-jitsu or if you’re in the jujitsu already and you need a ghee or a rash guard I recommend you go to origin mancom it’s uh my brother Pete Roberts up there in Maine where they make everything which is awesome they weave the fabric so it stitch it embroider it send it out these rash guards shorts made in America and and yes we are getting in league with Forge in Maine so there’s a little bit of a perfect storm kind of brewing got somebody that makes something in America something that I like in your neck of the woods to by the way in my neck of the woods so we’re getting on the warpath with origin main and we’re going to get after it so check them out then weigh the warrior kid make a kid’s life better get him or her this book so they can get better faster stronger and before you give it to them no advice read it yourself uncle jake has something for all of us that’s for sure also discipline equals freedom Field Manual I brought like a rough copy africo there’s some name that they call this Rob colors this will be my third book I published I still don’t understand the publishing like they have a certain the words and stuff they use terms sure as ours and we’re going to do this blah blah blah I said what does that mean but this is the book this is a book inside the cover so a couple things does this have a flashy cover that’s going to attract you know people to buy it no it doesn’t it’s got an all-black cover flap that’s what it’s got is it got some you know some interesting fluff in there for you to feel good about yourself no that stuff’s not in there either does it have these incredible life hacks that going to teach you how to rise and fulfill your dreams through simple things that you can do no those aren’t in there either mmm it’s called the discipline equals freedom Field Manual it’s about discipline and if you follow it you’re going to find freedom pretty simple there you go if you’re on YouTube there’s the book right there what does it look like hard to see against the black background cuz it’s black yeah it’s tough so you can see the cover that’s not what the books for no no bubble the cover does that yeah it’s a little tedious that’s that you can work that comes out October 17th the assumption is you might want to order it now so you get a copy when it first comes out otherwise people will have discipline before you and that’s good not gonna work out good for you extreme ownership of course you have it by the way you have it that’s good but get it for your team because I don’t make your life easier if you want to do that we also have a challan front consulting me Lafe babban JP now Dave Burke get your team aligned so your leadership can crush your enemies and by the way don’t try and book us through a speaker’s agent if you know what that is if you know that is don’t do it don’t look online and find our literary agent and try and look don’t do that we have a company it’s called echelon front book through the company info and echelon front comm an email that that’s how you get us to come and work with your company the muster we just got done with one next one is September 14th and 15th in San Diego it is going to sell out it is factual it is going to sell out it is factual it is going to sell out because all three of the first ones have sold out this one’s going to sell out to register go to extreme ownership calm if you want to come to it if you don’t want to come stay at home that’s fine too whatever they also if you train jiu-jitsu or if you don’t training you want to start training speaking of origin main we’re doing the origin immersion jujitsu camp up in Maine Eko and I are going to be their training and cruising super hard the will be there the last day of the first session and the first day of the second session the sessions are August 20 through 23rd for the first session and 24 through 27 for the second session come on up we’re gonna be there if you want to transcend jujitsu it’s going to be a good time and what I like about it is at the muster the muster is a tight schedule from four o’clock in the morning until nine o’clock at night ten o’clock at night we’re we’re moving this thing we’re gonna do what five hours six hours of jujitsu a day sure and then the rest of the time we’re gonna do with the other 18 hours a day yeah you think total right yeah yeah yeah say two hours the morning hours of launch two hours in the afternoon I mean maybe not training the whole time but I think you mean you just see that doing jujitsu showing like hey can you go over this with me hey I got a question for you hey echo can you teach me that mountain escape that you got like whatever you know those things we’re going to want to do that yeah so that’s six hours and then we sleep for four hours so that’s ten hours that’s 14 hours this 14 hour is going to be just walking around in circles going be tfbg I know nothing really is going to hang out so if you want to come train Sanja to hang out come to that camp up in Maine it’s gonna be awesome we’re going to have a good time up there and until then we’ll be rolling in another place victory MMA yes also we’ll be rolling on the interwebs the Twitter the Instagram and that face Ybor Chabot ha echo is that echo Charles and I am at Jocko willing and finally thanks to everyone for listening to this podcast which is brought to you by our military who are out there holding the line against evil worldwide it’s also brought to you by police law enforcement firefighters paramedics and other first responders who make this country safe here on the home front so we can enjoy life liberty and the pursuit of happiness thanks to all of you in uniform for what you do and the rest of you that are out there leading leading wherever you are and whatever you do leading yourself and the people around you in the right direction forward toward the goal toward the light toward a better place setting the example and getting after it so until next time this is echo and Jocko out