Jocko Podcast 124 w/ General James “Mook” Mukoyama

this is jaco podcast number 124 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willick good evening echo good evening bullets punched through the chopper as Nev and I jumped out together we ran over to the farthest wounded guy grabbed him ran back and tossed him into the bird we picked up a second wounded in action the same way and then a third amazingly without becoming casualties ourselves but by the time everyone was loaded onto the helicopter there was no room inside for me I stood on the skids and put on my helmet so I could tell the pilot to take off but I found I couldn’t talk I was so dried out my tongue had welded itself to the roof of my mouth out of pure fear I had to open my canteen and drink some water before I could even gasp let’s get this mother out of here we took the wounded back to base and returned to the fight without anything holding him up now I couldn’t now couldn’t figure out why Torpy didn’t do something about getting his men consolidated outside of that paddy he still kept saying he was pinned down finally I lost my temper I really chewed his ass over the radio demanding he’d get cracking and get those men out of that paddy now apparently the next thing he did was put down the radio stand straight up and begin running from man to man to get them to move back he got mowed down right away and died a short time later maybe I hadn’t learned a damn thing at my con or from Dennis Foley’s near-miss in that minefield I hadn’t asked Torpy to stand up he didn’t need to in order to extricate himself but it hadn’t occurred to me that he would I had been playing the game as if lieutenant nap a lot natural or season leader was in charge it was due to the force of my word as his commander that this inexperienced young lieutenant was sent to his death like Jim Gardner’s Torquay’s death was a big guilt thing for me and has remained so all my life and that is an excerpt from the book about face which is by colonel david hackworth a book that we covered on this podcast in fact it was the first book we covered on this podcast and there is a reason for that the book about face was and is my favorite book and when I was deployed to Ramadi in 2006 I read it and reread it every chance I got now the book is about war but I have always found it to be a book about leadership and in my opinion the best book I have ever read about leadership david hackworth who was born and raised in california lied about his age and joined the Merchant Marines and served in the South Pacific at the end of World War two and then he joined the army where he rose through the ranks serving in the Korean War and the Vietnam War battlefield commissioned an over his career in combat he was awarded two Distinguished Service crosses eight Silver Stars three legions of merit a Distinguished Flying Cross and eight Purple Hearts and in the end he became an outspoken opponent of how we were fighting the war in Vietnam and that cost him his career in the army he went on to write these books and was able to pass on the lessons that he learned through these books about face which as I said we covered on podcast number two he also wrote a book called steal my soldier’s heart which is covered on podcast 28 and unfortunately he died on May 4th 2005 before I ever got the chance to meet him but a few months ago someone reached out to me on social media someone by the name of Jay Mookie Yama and he was a listener to the podcast and he he thought I just might be interested in talking to his father James Mookie Amma the name looked pretty familiar I thought I recognized it and I quickly realized that this was the full name of one of the men that appeared in both books about face and steal my soldier’s heart the man Colonel hackworth simply called Mook then I replied to Jay and said I would be absolutely honored to be introduced to his father who was in fact Major General James Mookie Amma a retired Army officer that had served as a company commander in Vietnam working directly for Colonel Hackworth and after some logistical coordination it is my absolute honor to welcome general James Mookie Yama to the podcast sir this is an absolute honor well Jocko it it is the same on this side I’ve listened to some of your podcasts especially the one on steel my soldiers hearts and I couldn’t stop listening to it and then I realized I looked at my watch and I said this is over two hours already just because of you the way you picked out the really important things that happen in fact I’ve forgotten a lot of things until you you read verbatim some of the things that he said and and he lived what he wrote I might add he led by example yeah well I definitely have taken a ton of lessons from him over the years and that that’s why it’s just amazing to be sitting here with you and let’s talk about you though let’s talk about how you ended up in the army and where you came from and what your background was you know what once you take us back to Chicago sure I was born and raised in the inner city of Chicago a neighborhood called Logan Square primarily polish German Italian we were the only minority family in that neighborhood and we went to a grammar school of 900 my brother and I were the only minorities so I grew up I grew up basically in a phenomenally white white environment but I never felt like I was different really because everybody treated me fine it was it was a time in life in the inner city where everybody knew each other you know in our neighborhood our block we didn’t lock our doors you know everybody knew that’s the time when you know most mothers stayed at home and they were the police of the block if anybody would come by there was out of order you know they would take care of it but we we were I’d say lower middle-class economically we never owned a home we always lived in an apartment building my father was an immigrant from Japan my mother was her family was from Japan but she was actually born in Madison Wisconsin and so my grandparents live with us you know we all three generations in the same apartment and I never felt poor I you know because we had a strong family our church was only three blocks away from our apartment building every Sunday we put on our Sunday best clothes and we would walk as a family to church now it’s interesting you you you said your dad had emigrated from Japan and your mom was born in Wisconsin yeah was your mom not didn’t your mom get putting the internment camps with her family during World War two no no no here’s the thing my father came to the States in 1918 in fact that was kind of a funny thing he was he was gonna sign up for World War one you know which was still going on but then it ended so he couldn’t he couldn’t sign up and and then when World War two hit he was too old you know and plus he was a Japanese he I don’t know if you know this or not Japanese could not become citizens naturalized citizens of the United States until 1952 and so so he was a you know he was still a Japanese citizen but he was in Chicago my family was in Chicago my mother and father my brother I wasn’t born I was born during World War two and so we didn’t have to go to camp mostly the 95% of japanese-americans at that time or any one of Japanese descent lived on the west coast in California Oregon Washington State Colorado and so when the war hit Pearl Harbor hit President Roosevelt signed the executive order 9066 which called for the all people of Japanese descent to be evacuated from the west coast and put in concentration camps in the inner part of the country basically in deserted desert areas and these camps they euphemistically refer to them as relocation centers but they were really kind my Stan you know your standard constant raishin camp with bob warrior fences with machine guns facing in not out and people not being able to come and go as they please a hundred and thirty thousand people of Japanese descent were put in these camps and two-thirds of them were American citizens not aliens okay and no trials no no the only crime that they have committed was the that the color of their skin and their fact that they were of Japanese descent and so did your family avoid that because they were in Chicago yeah there were only like three or four hundred of us in Chicago at the time and we weren’t considered a threat but my other the rest of my family my grandparents on my mother’s side and my cousins and aunts and uncles they were all in California and they all got evacuated just imagine this your it’s a Friday night and you got a knock on your door okay it’s the local FBI agent and he says on Monday morning be at the corner of Washington and State Street with two suitcases end of communication okay and you you know you don’t have time to do hardly anything and you you know you go there and then you’re put on a train you don’t know where you’re going and you wind up in a camp and you’re there for three years okay so let’s say you’re your owner of a small business you lose the business you no longer have a job right so you can’t pay your mortgage and things like they lost they lost everything and now you’re 18 let’s say you’re 18 years old okay and this happened to your family right and the local army recruiter comes that it can’t and says I want you to go die for your country you know frankly Jocko I don’t know what I would have done I might have told the guy to take a walk you know or use other words and yet it’s so many of them joined up and along the the Italian in the 442nd Regimental Combat Team that’s right and and those guys fought with incredible bravery and had some critical battles that turn some de tied in some critical situations as well yeah they were the most highly decorated infantry unit in the history of the United States Army for its size and time of service you know and there were a regimental combat team let’s say about 4 500 soldiers because they had an artillery battalion and other things they were attached ok in about 18 months of combat they were awarded over 9 000 purple hearts you know some guys had three or four you know and if not more and you know present the Presidential Unit Citation you’re familiar that award they’re our army divisions that never got that award okay that regimental combat team was awarded eight Presidential Unit Citations that’s unbelievable yeah they were my personal heroes so that’s and that was to kind of get back to your question that was one of the reasons that that I wanted to join the army okay I was actually gonna ask that so you know you’re sitting here saying if you were in one of those camps you don’t know if you might have had to tell them to go take a walk but when your time came you you you you walked into the recruiters office yot away from it yeah well in my case when I was in high school as I told you you know faith is a very strong part of my whole life I’ve been so blessed in life beyond anything I deserve and so when I was our church you know we go to church every Sunday I was in the choir I was in Cub Scouts I was in Boy Scouts I was in the youth group you know all of this was centered around the church you know when I was in scouts I went to the National Jamboree in Valley Forge Pennsylvania with 52 000 of my best friends living in tents and but you know that was and what was the symbol of that Jamboree George Washington at Valley Forge in prayer and the motto of scouting is for God and country so that was really my model and then I was in a Boise State are you familiar with Boise State no Boise State is an American Legion program does that so exist yes yeah and it’s it’s been around probably for 50 years now when I went it was the 25th year okay so it’s more than 50 years and the concept of Boise State is they take junior high school juniors ready to go into senior year and who are leaders basically and they form a quasi state government for two weeks and they actually divided into two political parties they don’t call them Republicans and Democrats they call them something else and and they have state government County government and local city government and you run for offices and you actually have to come up with a platform and you debate and so it’s a it’s a list lesson in civics okay but it was sponsored by the American Legion so we all lived in like dorms and the dorms we had to make our beds so you could bounce a quarter on it you know and they’re all army blankets stuff and cots and but it was wonderful it was just a great experience but so when I was in high school I but I was very active in my church in my I’m kind of a German guy and I was the president of my my high school youth group at the church and then I became the vice president of the Chicago Association where did you play sports no well I was no I didn’t I was and what about your grades well I was I was belted in this minor of my famous school in high school and I was they have valedictorian in grammar school yeah that shows you where how well I did in grammar school I didn’t know that and then I I I was in the band I played clarinet and saxophone so I was the first chair clarinet of his a band that was the principal would win in the orchestra and so but anyway I was I was very active in my church youth group and I I was thinking of becoming a minister okay but then I was in Junior ROTC mm-hm and Chicago has the nation’s largest Junior ROTC program about 30 high schools heaven and it’s a great program people misunderstand JROTC they think it’s a feeder for the military okay I mean some of them do go into the military but that’s not the purpose the purpose is to give these high school students something other than gangs to belong to to give them experience in leadership and discipline and teamwork and it’s it’s a tremendous program so I was in Junior ROTC was so it’s that combined with your your view of the like the 442nd those things are kind of starting to congeal in your head and maybe move you towards a military yeah and then in addition to that I have just one sibling an older brother he’s about 7 years older than I am and he joined the army as an enlisted guy but in the first year of college he was in a military fraternity called Pershing rifles which other people like : Powell and some others at minute including myself when I went to the U of I and that and you have to understand also that I’m Japanese American in the Japanese culture the warrior the samurai is at the top of the social strata okay unlike China where the scholar was at the top in Japan it’s the warrior so when I joined the military when I became a commissioned officer my dad was so proud you know his small t-shirts swallowed a large you know when I became a general it’s like you know incredible but I you know saw so I want to do ROTC in college as well oh yes see I’m a driven guy right and and I was here’s here’s the thing though as I told you I was thinking of becoming a minister but then I also wanted to serve in the military so what do you think I would do chaplain pretty much exactly little problem I’m Protestant and my denomination theologically went so far away from what I believed in that I couldn’t buy the theology so now I’m praying to God right and I’m saying I get the message I guess you want me to do my military thing so that’s what I did okay but you fast forward 50 years 55 years what am i doing today I’m doing what I wanted to do when I was in high school because I have military outreach USA a faith-based nonprofit that I started so it’s a lesson in prayer and that is at that time I thought God was telling me no he wasn’t telling me no he was saying wait it’s on my schedule not on your schedule I mean you know I wasn’t mature enough either as as a military guy nor is in my faith so what year was it that you’re showing up in college 6161 Darden so you do four years of college it’s 1965 right Vietnam is really not escalated yet at that point but did you think it was pretty hot at that time and I i basically by that time I I was on the military thing right I wasn’t gonna be a chaplain anymore so I was I was in Pershing rifles I was under rifle team I was on the drill team you know if it smelled military I was in okay then you have to me remember I had four years of high school ROTC also before I went to Benning so you’re pretty good at your drill I think you know I had I mean I mean infantry I OBC infantry officer basic course piece of cake I mean I I went through that I was an honor graduate in my class and in fact this is really funny in my class about two hundred you know brand-new second lieutenants right about a third of it was National Guard and about a third were reserves and there were only a few of us that were Regular Army see I got a distinguished military graduate commissioned Regular Army infantry right and so very few of us were Regular Army in my class so our attitude was not really the best shall we say and so we get the Benning and they they marched us to class I mean this wasn’t to us it was insane we’re second lieutenants you know just tell us where the building is we’ll get there right yeah no we had the March in formation the army so needless to say the attitude was not real good right with my company so the day we graduated okay they used to have a award a screamer that companies could put on their guide on those called the tiger tactics award you know this is we’re really gung-ho you know companies and all that which ours was not needless to say well the night before we stole from another company and we put it on our guide on and so on graduation day we marched by the headquarters and out comes the commander the guys livid and you say where’d you guys get that oh you know it’s just just the beard and we were graduating then what’s the guy gonna do to us right so we we all graduated and that was so so 1965 didn’t you go to you went to you went to graduate school yeah Hereafter yeah here’s the thing you know I told you I had the we we didn’t have a lot of money for me to go to college so I knew I had to earn it myself right so when I was in high school my senior year I worked 33 hours a week I worked from 5 till 10 o’clock at night at a warehouse in Chicago and I worked 8 hours on Saturday so I could raise money ok I also played in two bands I told you I please clarinet and saxophone I played in a Polish band for weddings and that was so cool because by the third set everybody was so blessed there’s nobody cared right and then but I also played in the Jewish band so I used to play for bar mitzvahs find you all the temples in Chicago I used to tell people I had them coming or going either way and then I had to you know I took out two government loans and that’s the only way I could afford to go to school and so so sixty-five rolls around I graduate and I find this interesting for a for a real obvious reason you majored in English yeah College yeah the reason I did that Jocko is once again you know I’m pretty focused guy and my my focus was unbecoming the best officer I could be the best leader I could be of infantry soldiers and I knew I was going into combat right so when as a freshman I tried to determine what am I gonna major in to prepare me for that so I looked at psychology and I looked at English not rhetoric but English literature okay I rejected psychology in my first year because we had these classes classes with Pavlov and his dogs and all this stuff you know and I was going through that and I said what does this have to do it people you know I mean I’m gonna learn 100 you know work with people well literature whether you read the whole continuum of you know everyman or Shakespeare or Hemingway if you read that stuff there are universal traits of human nature that come out at you okay if you can understand it you can realize what motivates people okay so I and then not only that but if you read the best writers of all time I just felt by sher osmosis got not the smartest guy just by sher osmosis you know I could absorb that I could express myself better so that’s why I majored in English and I’ve talked about I was an English major as well and I I was I was I was prior enlisted so I had been in for eight years and actually I’d been in for 10 years by the time I went to call and I knew right away I was gonna be an English major and the reason I wanted to be an English major cuz I had I’d gotten commissioned and served two years in the in the seals before I went to college as an officer and I realized you got to write everything you’ve got to read directives from people and got to understand what they’re saying and then you got to communicate with your troops and I wanted to have a good command of the English language the the part that you talked about the understanding of human nature was something that I saw once I got in and I started reading it so I started applying and thinking about what I was reading and now this is something that I that I advocate for everyone to if you want to really understand human nature you got to read yeah yeah so I was so when I was waiting you know when I said that in 1965 the war because I think what was it what year was I drank nineteen that was 1965 wasn’t it the battle by doing I think it was I think I think it was 65 I think it was and you know they kind of used that as hey this is when the real escalation started and and the reason I asked you that specifically is because I’ve had some Vietnam vets on that we’re going to college in 1965 and they were like they’d even hadn’t even heard of Vietnam at that point so I guess it was because I was in ROTC you know I was kind of paying more attention you know and I knew I was going to bending I mean that was a foregone conclusion and you knew you were going to combat as well oh yeah that was your mind so I yeah because that was my goal to be an infantry officer you know and if I did you know that’s that to me was where I wanted to go and and so in 65 I got an I got an offer to get an assistantship you know to to be merely a counselor in the dorm but it’s like I died and went to heaven because they they paid for tuition and fees and I got like a hundred bucks a month salary which to me was like richest guy in the world but the important thing was I could get my master’s degree okay and by the way I got it in a year because I went to summer school I just I wanted to go on active duty but this was a chance for me to go you know under an assistantship and not having to pay for it but now the pragmatism kicks in for me you know because you know really with an English degree as you know you know it’s it’s great for preparing you to understand things but you know that and 50 cents in those days would get me a cup of coffee so I and then I knew I was gonna go into combat I knew I was gonna be an infantry officer and the odds of my perhaps getting wounded you know were fairly decent so I need to have a fallback you know and I wasn’t an accountant so I wasn’t a CPA or you know something like that so I got my masters in the teaching of social studies so I could be a teacher you know you don’t have to run the hundred yard dash to be a teacher and so and I’m and teaching is a noble profession and I always felt that you know it’s something I could do if I got wounded and still contribute to society and 70 or you know the seventy-five percent of your time is an officer or senior NCO is teaching you know so I figured I want to find out how the pros do it allegedly what I found out is the military has the best education system really does you know I didn’t have to get my master’s degree in history and philosophy of education and Ed psych and all that stuff no didn’t need it so you you wrap up you get your master’s degree and now you you know you’re going to Vietnam what what happens when you graduate okay so I I go to Fort Bunny I go to I OBC and you know I’m an undergraduate my class so I didn’t finish that story this my my my class that I was in you know really bad attitude guys right and on the day of graduation they announced the undergraduates okay I was in the 3rd platoon so 1st platoon they announced the undergraduates in the platoon second platoon they announced the undergraduates 3rd platoon which I’m in I’m the only guy who’s an undergraduate out of my platoon when they announced my name everybody boo because I’m you in our record right so what happened is I volunteered for I volunteered for Eric well I was Regular Army so I had that I had to go airborne I volunteered for Ranger School but in those days the West pointers all it was mandatory they had to go to Ranger School so I graduated at the same time that the West pointers did they took up all the quotas so I couldn’t get into Ranger school but I had a solution see I’m always thinking ahead I was gonna I applied for Pathfinder school mmm-hmm so I figured I go through Pathfinder school I’d finish that the West pointers would be gone I could slide into the next Ranger class right mm-hmm they didn’t give me dance finder so now I’m stuck right so I said okay I’m volunteering from Vietnam and they sent me in a Korea so I was in the DMZ in Korea which is really a god thing I’ve got to tell you this because I was with the second ID on the DMZ and those days you were you were assigned and you stayed there for 13 months on the DMZ and there was still active combat patrolling and we take casualties during that time 13 months I was there we had 12 K ie about 40 wounded okay so this was not a walk in the park and it was it was a great experience for me because in addition to see we were in the DMZ we actually had a company compound okay and we actually had a guard mount you know and we had our own NCO club and we had in and so we had all the all the BS of the admin stuff that you do on when you’re in garrison mm-hmm but we were doing combat patrolling every day on the DMZ so it was really a great experience for me as a young officer because I was able to lead troops out on patrol but also I had to do all this admin stuff you know the garrison and so that was your platoon commander tour what were the patrols like what were you doing basically they were ambushed patrols because the DMZ was set up where it was a free fire zone if you saw anyone you could shoot him because nobody was supposed to be there okay and we would have to say Corian chunky which is they tell him to stop you know but how many times did you say that before you pull the trigger basically but we we did ambush patrolling primarily and that was you said you were lucky or you said it was God that put you there and and do you feel that because that’s just a really good sort of warm-up for combat absolutely that’s absolutely I feel that way my first deployment to Iraq was was relatively it was relatively easy right we were in Baghdad things were going pretty well we had the upper hand on the enemy and we didn’t get into too much major combat you know we got a few firefights here and there but wasn’t like when I got Ramadi and I felt like that I was real blessed to have had an experience where you get the kind of the initial nervousness out of your system and you realize okay I can do this that that was I felt pretty lucky about that well also you know keep in mind I was I was just a young second lieutenant shavetail what did I know really and I was once again blessed I had a platoon sergeant who really it was a Korean War veteran or world you know a guy was actually an e7 okay and and basically when I got there you know I was his lieutenant okay so nobody screwed around with me but on the other hand I listen real carefully I mean that’s one thing I learned you know I as a young officer I’ve had my success in in the military because I had great NCOs who made me look good and I had commanders who mentored me and didn’t cut my head off when I screwed up and I’ve made my fair share of mistakes mm every we all you get done with that tour and then what’s your what’s your next assignment so you know you get your dream sheet right a lot where you want to go when you do roofs when you leave that area and so I put in for Fort Bragg for Fort Benning because I wanted to go to an airborne unit because I was urban but I’d never served in an airborne unit right they send me into Fort Lewis Washington so I go to Fort Lewis Washington to the the training center infantry training center ok and when I get there I made a long story short when I was in Korea I also was they found out I had a master’s degree so they pulled me off the line and the battalion commander calls me into his office right so I go down there and he says lieutenant Okayama how you doing sir I’m having a great time you know I’m I’m with soldiers you know we’re doing combat patrolling you know and I really and this is what I’ve been trained to do you know and any that’s I’m happy okay so he says I see we have a master’s degree I said yes sir and he said you know our battalion adjutant is leaving and you have a degree in English you can see where this is all going right and I said yes sir and he said well how would you like to be the battalion adjutant and I said sir I’m honored that you would even consider this but I’m really happy you know leading soldiers and he said lieutenant I’m not looking for happiness in my battalion you will report on Monday morning you know yes sir okay so off I went and and I became the battalion aid unit but that once again was a great experience for me because I learned a lot of the admin stuff in unfortunately and some I also saw some bad stuff going on which I was not happy with I saw you know I because I was the a Jeanette oh and what I didn’t tell you was that was at battalion level the brigade adjutant left and they called me up to brigade to be the brigade now I’m a first lieutenant that’s a majors position right but I happen to be pretty good I was the best battalion dad you know not on all the Italians so I go up there I go up there to brigade to be a brigade ad unit and what I found was you know the officer efficiency reports in the Oh ers I knew all the battalion commanders because I dealt with them all okay so if if I am mu Yama were to rate the battalion commanders based on their leadership right and I would have rated them one two three four okay mm-hmm but I saw the reports going through it was four three two one and and that’s because they were looking for managers not commanders and so that was that was a tough pill to swallow so eye-opening for you as yeah yeah I know when I worked I was the Admirals aide and I saw I didn’t see stuff like that that turned me off but I saw just just getting a better grip on what was happening behind the scenes was very important for me and it helped me out you know later on and when you were in Fort Lewis that’s when you first met hackworth right absolutely correct this this was so cool when when you know when happen on the Campton by this time I’m a captain right and I met the I’m the Secretary General of the SDS I was the secretary the General Staff okay what that means is I was the assistant for their chief of staff basically and so I do you know who Hackworth was focused on we all we all I mean heck was a legend you know everybody knew who he was but also because I had that job one of my functions was I was the guy who coordinated the general schedule and the Chiefs of Staff schedule and Hackworth was reporting into Fort Lewis as a new battalion commander okay well whenever a new battalion commander came in I always did research on the person you know so I could tell the general you know here’s the guy was coming in here’s this background while Harris was you know mr infantry basically and so when he came to see the general he walks into the headquarters you know I’m sitting behind this desk he walks in so I stand up you know I say welcome Colonel hack worth to Fort Lewis you know the general will be with you in ten minutes you know because he came early right the first words out of half were smile I’m not kidding first words what are you doing sitting behind the desk he said you should have a company he said if you want one I’ll give it to you okay the guy doesn’t know me from Adam right I mean you know and but you know I was pretty sharp in the way of warming uniform I did have you know my jump wings and my I have an expert infantryman badge okay and I had my EIB and that’s it I didn’t wear any ribbons or hey that stuff and just the stuff that counted as far as I was and so hacksaw that you know and and I said Colonel I really appreciate you know what you’re saying but I came to the same conclusion that you did a couple months ago and I’ve already talked to a battalion commander who’s accepted me to take one of his companies so I’m committed to him sir so I can’t you know I’d love to take you up on your offer but I can’t because I committed to the southern battalion commander and heck said I understand totally okay well then turned out to be another god thing because later on as you know in the book he and I got together and we saved the career of a drill sergeant mm-hmm we I just want to hear a little bit more about this because it’s something that I haven’t been able to gather from anyone you know in my mind you know I thought everyone must look at hack like you know this guy’s mr infantry as you put it but I also would say to myself well you know here’s the I’m thinking that because he wrote these books and because I studied him but that was an actual thing people knew who he was by his reputation throughout the army yeah it was not only his reputation but his appearance I mean you know his neck was probably the size of my waist I mean this you know a hand worth was just you know he always said you know he wasn’t bald like today you know but you know Heath of an inch you know razor sharp you know sides and and all that and what I didn’t say is he hackers had this unique ability to size people up when he saw them like when he said that to me and and I’ve said this before but hackers his philosophy was you’re either a dud or a stud and there was nothing in between and he had this uncanny I’ve seen it dozens of times where he actually did size guys up and I never saw him this on that evaluation he just had this this instinct you know the size guys up and that’s and that’s why he was successful as a commander because one of the principles is to surround yourself with good people and so when he came to a unit he found some guys that weren’t cutting it they were gone I mean especially in combat you know he can’t tolerate that you know and he would and he had the strings that he could pull and he had the relationships all over the place it seems that’s right now how did when did he leave would to go to Vietnam and take over the battalion he probably let the sea I left in May of 69 so it was probably end of 68 or maybe early 69 and and he goes over and he’s over there for a few months and then he ends up needing well he wants to surround himself with good people again and so he reaches out to you yeah how does that happen well you know I was still at Louis as an AIT company commander and and another thing I should tell you at that time I’m not real happy with the army because they never gave me any assignment or anything I ever asked you know you’re like oh four four at this point are you ready for this I I get what I didn’t tell you was in graduate school I majored in Japanese history and Chinese history and political science and Japanese language in my masters of social studies okay and I happen to be japanese-american I haven’t have had a tour in Korea right where by the way I didn’t tell you I got awards from the Korean army and so now the army comes out with the foreign area specialty training program or fast okay and the concept is a great concept you know in Vietnam he got caught with our pants down because we don’t have any army experts in Vietnam nobody knew the culture nobody knew the language the politics sound familiar and so basically the army said ok we’re going to develop Geographic experts for the whole world ok and we’re gonna call it the fast program so I saw that and it was in the army time you know they said if you have an interest called this number you Nolan so I called you know and he said hey look pull up my record you know you’ll see you know I got my master’s degree in far recent Affairs ethnically I’m Japanese I’ve got a tour in Korea where I got some awards in the Korean army ok and I’m Regular Army right what are my chances getting in this program that it should be a hundred percent right are you ready for this the first words out of their guys mouth you haven’t been to Vietnam and I said well that’s right but if you’ll go back in my record you’ll see I volunteered for Vietnam in the army sent me to Korea ok he said that doesn’t come ok the second thing he said was you haven’t been the career course Advanced Course for officers look he got me there I hadn’t you know I was just a young captain I hadn’t been there so in essence he’s telling me you know come back in a couple of years and maybe we’ll think about it you know he didn’t give me any encouragement he didn’t say hey you’re a natural for this program you know I’ll keep on monitoring your career you know blog he didn’t do any of that stuff and about that time I get the letter from hackworth saying hey Mukai we got a war going on if you want a company it’s yours and like I hit the lotto you know and I and frankly I was I was sneaking of you know resigning my Regular Army Commission but I hadn’t been to Vietnam yet and I was a bachelor I had a lot of my friends who were married or going back for their second and third tours you know and I felt an obliging underhand course would be the best opportunity I could I could have so I jumped at it you know and I’m with it but things did not come how did you get orders I mean did you know I know Hackworth had some relationships with people but just to get a guy deployed to be in his battalion how did you how did he pull that off what did it look like well I mean I I called my infantry officer assignment guy whom I never spoken to him in the five years I was on active duty right because I always felt that I shouldn’t be managing my own career you know if I if I did my job that the army would you know I I’d be treated okay you know well none of that ever happened right so I called this guy at the Pentagon and I say hey I’m volunteering for Vietnam again and he basically said well ok you know give me your phone number in case we lose connection here and and then he said and I said but I have a stipulation I need to go to the 9th division and he said ok I can make that happen when do you want to go I said as soon as possible and this is February and he said oh I can get you there in August and I said nope that’s not soon enough he said how about April I said sold so I got orders so you know now everybody told me in the world at that time Here I am infantry Regular Army captain going to Vietnam when I hit the rep load up oh they could assign me anywhere you know and the orders meant nothing you know because captain’s infantry captains were a dime a dozen so when I get to Vietnam everything was greased 9th division I went from the night I went from from Saigon right to the 9th division at Dawg camp you know I’d land there I’ve got my orders to his battalion it’s all obvious weren’t you doing some kind of like Vietnam and doctor nation for long and and hack pulled you out two days into it or so yeah I was so upset they had a five day in-country training program for newbies okay especially you know well you know in the Delta I’d say 85% of our casualties for from booby traps and so we were and there was a special terrain you know with rice paddies and and canals and you know just the whole thing was totally different and so they had this five day training course to acclimate you and to understand the booby traps and the terrain and all this stuff and I’m in it for two days and I’m pulled out of the course and I’m put on the helicopter and they take me down to you know the Potala and fire support base and I’m madder than a wet hen you know and I I go to half and I say sir you know how can you do this to me I mean I’m trying to learn how to stay alive you know psyche and he said MOOC you don’t need that stuff I know you you know yes sir yes sir and when you showed up so for those of you that hadn’t read haven’t read the books or listen to the other podcasts about this hacker that showed up but he was requested by name to go and take over the 439th in Vietnam which was a problem which was a battalion that was having a lot of problems and he went in there and he fixed it I mean that’s there’s no simple way to put it he went in there and squared that battalion away and made them from hopeless to hardcore is is the the terms that get used when you showed up the he’d already been there for a while so things were pretty solid at that point they were they were so good it was incredible in fact the first guy I met when I when I got there was our battalion s4 same as Mario takahashi he was actually a National Guard guy from Hawaii he was about six two or six three bit Japanese you know not like me Saul was Hackworth could you just you made it sound when you said that talking about his neck Lee was he like a big cuz he in pictures he always looks pretty lean and and not very physically well when I I mean is he was stoked okay I mean he wasn’t he wasn’t real huge she wasn’t real tall huh but just the way he carried himself that’s what I always envisioned was he was just a guy that if you walked away ago I bet that you know how tall was Hackworth oh he’s 60 yeah find out he’s whatever yeah I understand not only that but I’ll tell you he when I became a journal later on in life and and he came to one of my every every year I used to have a Leadership Conference for my my officers and my NCOs that I would invite speakers to come to and hackworth came to one of my conferences and then he visited me in Chicago when he was doing but his about face book right and so he invited me and my wife and kids to have dinner with him one night you know he always said bring your kids you know some guys would say no just you know being your wife or whatever because my kids were fairly young and then weren’t really young different maybe eight or nine you know at that time and my wife and the kids actually commented about how soft-spoken ham birth was he wasn’t a blustery guy you know among guys yeah but you know in the in public with you know women and family members he was he was a gentleman mm-hmm which kind of surprised my wife because I told him what about you know so anybody that’s that’s how he was and and so the the battalion when you show up it’s just a the guys are really on board with what’s going on oh absolutely because I got there probably three weeks before our famous that it wasn’t really a battle on 22 May where we decimated a VC training battalion basically and I mean I remember being at the talk you know when he’s planning while this Hackworth had this innate quality get just smell out the enemy you know even with all the intelligence we get and all this stuff you know he was able to figure out what they were doing and so he set us up for that night but to answer to you dress what you’re saying by the time I got there Takahashi was the first guy in that okay he was really a strong straight shooter and he was yes four and so he got all the equipment for the battalion and he got it whatever way he had to get it you know and then I meet the next guy I meet is another as a company commander and the guy was like six three or something you know so I’m seeing a pattern here right now I’m five foot five okay and but here’s the cool thing about this one of the other company commanders his name was Don Meyer and by the way hackers had this really cool way of using words in terms and titles that you know like our companies were not alpha Bravo Charlie Delta they were alert battle claymore and dagger okay and the Claymore company commander was a guy by name of Don Meyers Don Meyers was my roommate in college at the University of Illinois and we both were infantry ROTC guys right and then later he was he was with the hundred and first then he was wounded so they shipped them to the Simmons and then they assigned him to Fort Lewis which was where Hackworth and I were so Don and I were roommates again at Fort Lewis Washington okay so then half were ships to Vietnam and he takes Meyers with him okay so now Meyers who by the way is six foot three right and his nickname was lank you know and when he and I were in college as roommates it was like mutton Jeff you know and I wasn’t that tall guy and so anyway but as you as you can understand to have I command a battle company and he commanded claim our company and I knew that if we were gonna run into any cramp you know that he would he would be there for me and he knew I would be there for him and that was that was it just it was really good yeah that that whole thing with names is something that I completely ripped off from hackworth when I was at asking you to commander our tasking it was called well there was alpha Bravo and Charlie and I had Bravo and immediately when I took it over I changed the name from Bravo to bruiser and that’s was that changed the attitude of people it really does well also as you know all elite units have have greetings and countersigns right so for the hardcore or our model was hardcore we condo that was what the reading was the countersign which I cannot say totally was no effing slack okay yeah but I’ll tell you there were a guy I saw this eye witnesses there were guys were wounded on stretchers and hackers would walk up to them and they’d salute him and say hardcore acondo what kind of missions did you do when you showed up there so you take over your company commander yeah they were they were problem they were just really Recon Search Search and Destroy not really destroy but you know we were we were seeking out the VC but as it got closer or two we knew we were leaving right because President Nixon had had said that you know so it just got to be you know recon the area make sure they weren’t there if they were there we get into firefights but didn’t happen very often those most mostly booby traps and things and basically that was it I mean because they had you know they’re smart they knew we were leaving so why go into I get into contact right leaving now usually were showing me some pictures earlier you’re a pretty famous picture that got published it’s someone you’re your RTO had just been wounded what was the story on that yeah this is one of our operations and there was a booby trap and and he was he got a sucking chest wound from it and I got a little shrapnel not a lot and basically I called in a medevac helicopter and the helicopter came in unbeknownst to us there was a UPI photographer on the helicopter and he snapped a picture of my guys carrying my wounded RTO on a stretcher towards the helicopter and that became like the UPI picture for the day the one around the world you know the Vietnam photograph I didn’t even know it existed until three years later I was out I was off of active duty I was reading on US News and World Report magazine and the picture was like three inches by four inches in the magazine but it was all my soldiers you know and I saw it and I said hey and then I saw I was in the picture so I’m kind of in the picture so you can see me so I got the photo from from them I get asked a lot and it’s something that I don’t have any experience worth is what it was like having draftees as you know I was in although all-volunteer military and then on top of that you know the unit I worked with we were all volunteered again you know you volunteered to come in and you volunteer again to try and be in the SEAL Teams and people asked what it was like working with draftees now hack Worth’s opinion was draftees were good because they didn’t care about their career and if they thought something was wrong they’d say hey this is crap we don’t want to do that or hey you’re not telling the truth to us and so he thought it was good and it kept the army in check but there still had to be some leadership differences in dealing with and later in your career obviously you started working with the all-volunteer army what did you notice about the draftees that you learned from well the draftees just like and it doesn’t make any difference for your draftees or volunteers it depends on the leadership and you know they’ll respond the good leadership and the the draftees were like anyone else once you’re in the position you’re gonna do the best you can especially when you’re in combat because you want to survive and and and by that time it gets to be a bonding thing you know you’re not there fighting for liberty and justice in the American Way you’re fighting for the guy to the right of you and the guy to the left of you basically because you’re going everyday you’re living together you’re dying together you know and so it’s it’s a function of leadership and the draftees were great guys I mean I’d serve with them anywhere in fact I didn’t even know who was straying I didn’t care I didn’t ask you know whether they’re draftees our volunteers although the vast majority of our guys were draftees in in the 4th of the 39th mom and and that’s what was so cool about it that hackworth could take that battalion and turn it around and I heard stories because I came later on you know but he had a price on his head initially yeah a price on his head from his own guys yeah oh yeah but nobody had the gonads to step up and clean clean the price so yeah I mean one of the things he talks about and again I’ve talked about this on another podcast but you know when he showed up everyone had whatever they had guitars and they had radios and they had you know big hammocks for themselves and and he got there and said okay anything that you can’t carry on your back is gonna be in the middle of our base tomorrow morning it’s getting shipped out on helicopters so people went crazy are you kidding me well not only that you know what he did and I’m sure you know this but he took away class a meals oh I did not know that or I don’t remember it because they were so they were so how to say this nicely they they were not disciplined okay because they had lousy leadership before that and hackers basically said you know you guys are soldiers and he said I’m gonna keep you alive you know but you’re gonna have to soldier so he actually took classes away initially he made them shine their boots indefinitely I mean you know stuff that sounds crazy yeah you know but he was getting their attention yeah you know and and cleaning weapons I mean they would you know they were not cleaning I mean how crazy is that they weren’t cleaning their weapons at night time there was night this of the light discipline was almost non-existent I mean it was crazy and Hackworth made him you know soldier up and and but then what happened was they started to uses tactics and they found out that hey this works I mean we’re not taking casualties like we did before we’re actually inflicting casualties that we weren’t doing before and then he started to give stuff back oh you know what else he did he took away beer there was like water you know the average temperature was like 95 degrees you know and all that it was like 3 2 or whatever the beer was you know but he took that away initially too they and people thought he was nuts yeah actually there’s a great quote in about face it’s some guy writing home to his is just a quote from a letter somebody wrote doubt wrote you know my new come my new battalion commanders crazy I don’t know what’s gonna happen that’s literally a letter or a guy right home it’s interesting to me so I’ve seen this and I’m sure you’ve seen this in your career I’ve seen it in the business world I’m sure you’ve seen the business world in the military guys that go so far in that direction of being so hardcore and over-the-top that they break their guys and people actually don’t like them and they don’t want to serve them and they don’t want to do a good job because they’re they’re they’re too focused on stuff that doesn’t really matter and Hackworth just he seemed to have this ability to balance it so well between being hardcore and yet at the same time everybody knows that he’s gonna take care of many loves him yeah that that was the main thing cuz they knew that they were gonna they were gonna live under his command if they followed what he said mm-hmm and there would be successful – don’t forget the success breeds success and so the hard core is as they kept on progressing became prouder and prouder of you know and the guys you know it was just a unit that nobody wanted to reckon with no and that’s how it was but Hank led by example I can’t I just can’t emphasize that enough you know I I have my leadership mantra which and I’m a simple guy so I boil boil things down simply and the three words example carrying and balance and you got a lead by personal example it’s not you know do what I say but do what I do and carrying it’s the care for your soldiers and you know carrying means especially in combat keeping them alive that’s how you care for me and you train tough you know I mean Hackworth always mentioned that you know the harder you train you know the the better that they’ll perform in combat in fact sometimes it was easier in combat and you know some of the training they need make them go through and and finally is balance too especially leaders not talking to leaders right and I always told my leaders that you’ve got to maintain a balance between your professional military job and your family and I used to tell my guys you’re not doing me any good if you’re going through a divorce you know and too many guys it’s easy when you get promoted to get kind of caught up in the perks and then the responsibility you know so you work harder to be more and then what do you do you ignore your family and then things fall apart and so I I’ve worn my my soldiers I always said you know maintain that balance and I tried to do that not only personally but they to get my soul when we were mobilized for example okay my division now this was not we didn’t deploy overseas we were a training division our wartime mission was the Army Reserves by the way it was the only service that had this we we had reservists who’s wartime mission was to take over the training of the recruits at the active duty stations which would then release those active duty soldiers to go join forces made a lot of sense you know so so when that happened I I went to my staff now you have to understand this is like the late 80s right okay and I went to my staff and I said I want a 24-hour 800 number from my family Support Program I want my soldiers to know and I want their spouses to know that while they’re deployed if there is any problems they can count on us and I want it to be 24/7 man and they said general well you have to understand those days 800 murders were pretty expensive and and and they said you know number one is gonna be expensive number two you know with 24/7 you know and I said make it happen because I last thing I wanted my soldiers who are deployed to worry about was their families right and then what I did is I yeah I had the two stars stationary you know when it’s a Major General little notes you know they’re not eating half by 11 their little note things so I told my staff I want to send a personally signed note to every spouse or significant other of a deployed soldier in this division and I’m on a note to go to their employer because you have to understand these are reservist mm-hmm right okay so I had 1 500 soldiers mobilize right so this is 3 000 letters that I’m gonna sign you know personally they wanted me to use an auto auto pen you know buying my computer it you know manufacture your signature I said no way these are these are going you know so I I did that and what happened was I was I had a cousin whose husband was a steel seal salesman okay and she calls me one day and she said you’ll never know what happened to my husband he was making a call on this company in Indiana okay and on the wall was one of my letters Burcu to them and he saw my name on it you know so caring for your carrying and balance is important yeah yeah you know you talked about that that operation that was so well planned and so well executed and you talked about hack warts sort of Sixth Sense instinct and then you know I’ve heard you talking some other interviews about a situation that you were in that was that you described as really sort of impacting your your mental state and to me when I heard you talk about it it seemed to be almost like a turning point mentally psychologically for you and it had to do with you over running a position and and you end up with some some yeah I didn’t I didn’t realize the impact of that incident until many many years later but in order for me to explain that I have to talk about something called moral injury which is an when the so called invisible wounds of war a lot of people are familiar with post-traumatic stress disorder a lot of people are aware of traumatic brain injury but when you ask them if they could describe the invisible wound of war called moral injury very few people are knowledgeable about that how long has that term been used there was a psychiatrist at the VA doctor Jonathan Shay who basically coined that phrase in 2009 so it’s been around for a while and now it’s starting to really pick up steam in research because of its significance in contributing to the high suicide rate among veterans and the concept is is when I go around and I give presentations and and I tell people the concept is so intuitive you’ll get it in 30 seconds okay so here it is from the time you’re born until you’re 18 years old you develop a personal moral code sense of right or wrong that could come from your family your religion community friends whatever and then you join the military and you learn a warrior code the warrior code is superimposed on your personal moral code and in fact transforms that somewhat then you might have to participate in activities or operations that violate your personal moral code such as killing you don’t have to be the person that pulls the trigger you could be a witness or you could feel that you should have prevented it or you could be in a unit that follows another unit and you see that innocent civilians have been killed or you handle body parts at that time you sustained a so called invisible wound of war called moral injury it’s not a physical wound you can’t see it but in military operations we’re constantly moving you’re going from point A to point B to Point C you don’t have time to stop and reflect on this stuff so what do you do you bury it and it becomes unresolved grief shame and what happens is you come back to the states and let’s say you leave the military or you’re in the National Guard or reserves and you’ve come back to a community anywhere in the country that doesn’t understand what you’ve been through and it boils up to the surface and unless you have a strong coping mechanism for that bad stuff happens anger guilt depression suicide and the suicide rate among veterans today is epidemic I mean the VA it’s anywhere from 20 to 22 veterans per day are dying by suicide and that frankly is underreported it’s really higher than that because you’ve got veterans who are dying by suicide is not reported as a suicide though drive their motorcycle or car in to a tree or viaduct and it’s a vehicular accident or unfortunately there’s something called suicide-by-cop where they forced the law-enforcement officer to take lethal action and so what’s what’s the implication of all that we lose more veterans to suicide in a year than all the combat dust since 9/11 that’s all Germanicus and we believe that moral injury is a major contributing factor to that and military outreach USA our organization we feel that the main approach to moral injury is not a medical doctor with prescription drugs it’s the forgiveness and grace of a moral authority and the counseling of clergy and sensitive therapists and the support of a community offering hope and help and so now getting back at an incident that that you asked me about Jocko I was a company commander battle company we had just overrun Viet Cong position and killed numerous enemy and I literally had three dead bodies at my feet okay well the time a unit is most vulnerable is right after a victory it’s just human nature to let your guard down and breathe a sigh of relief why I’m the guy in charge I know that so I’m on my radio and I’m kicking rear end and taking names I’m telling my platoon leaders we organize your units we distribute ammunition take care of your wounded look for enemy avenues of approach for a counter-attack right and in the middle of all that stuff going on I stopped and I looked at the three dead bodies at my feet I realized that something had happened to me something had hardened my heart only moments earlier these were alive human beings they had families they had emotions they had loved ones they were fighting for something as important to them as I was fighting for and I was in their band yard and then I remember Jesus is Sermon on the Mount where he told us to pray for our enemies so in the midst of all this stuff going on I said a prayer for the three Vietcong and I know I was praying for myself as much as I was praying for them now you know I didn’t have a big ceremony get on my hands and knees any of that stuff you know this all took about 45 seconds but it’s something that was seared in my heart and mind for the rest of my life and now that I know about morale and injury okay which I didn’t know at that time I realize that I was one in a million who was able to address my moral injury at the time that happened okay and you know I’d always when I came here from Vietnam I had seen a lot of my comrades having nightmares having flashbacks you know personality changes and I frankly asked myself how come I’m not going through that okay and at the time my answer always was my faith and my wife my wonderful wife of now 46 years who is an angel I’ve been so blessed having her for a wife so that was my answer okay but now since I’ve been dealing with military outreach USA and this issue of moral injury I realized that my answer was really lacking okay there were two other things one was that incident in Vietnam that I just mentioned to you but the other thing which I now realize is when I came back from Vietnam I joined the reserves okay and I was able to maintain my sense of purpose of being in a unit with other people who share the same values that I did of patriotism of dedication of selfless service which a lot of veterans when they come back they just want to cut ties totally and they a lot of them drift because they they don’t have that sense of purpose they don’t have the camaraderie they don’t have the bonding you know I had that with the reservist especially you know in Viet you know with Vietnam and all the BS did we had to take from the public you know I mean you won’t believe this way well I know you know this but when we came here from Vietnam we were told not to wear our uniforms in public I mean that’s how bad it was that’s crazy you know guys wore wigs so they people wouldn’t know they had short haircuts mmm you know because they could pick them up as being military and so my being in the reserves helped me you know maintain that one of the things that I tell guys is very similar to what you just said you know I tell guys you got to find a new mission when you get done when you get done with the military you got to find a new mission and if you can stay in reserves obviously that that gives you that but if you don’t do that well then you got to find what are you gonna do what are you gonna step out there are you gonna become a great dad are you gonna build a business are you gonna work for a company and do a great job or you got to find a new mission and I find that guys that I’ve seen that that have real problems it’s because they got out and they didn’t know didn’t have any direction to go into I also what just to dig a little bit deeper so you’re in that situation where you see these guys and and and for the first time you you kind of look down on them and see them as people as other human beings is it you know is it the fact that you when you when you set a prayer for them and for yourself I kind of got an thought of when you hear about like Native Americans hunting and you know they they think you know when that when they get a kill though they’ll thank the you know mother nature and and thank for the sacrifice was it that type of thing where you said okay you know what we’re fighting I’m I was doing my job you guys were doing your job and I hope you have peace now when it was it that type of thing absolutely because you know what happens is you forget that they’re there dehumanized but you know you’ve got all these all these names that you call them you know but I really respected the VC our enemy you know that’s a that’s the other thing you can’t underestimate your enemy you always have to respect them you have you know I mean you don’t have to agree with them but you you you have to respect their abilities because once you lose track of that you can really get screwed and basically I’ll give you some examples when we had that battle on 22 May okay I wasn’t the cnc helicopter with and i guess i should describe that battle a little bit more seer listeners we’re talking about the hardcore battalion and when we surround this this this vc training battalion really is what it was and we annihilated it basically they were in they were encircled and we were just calling her in airstrikes naval gunfire you know we were just take and then hackworth had him totally encircled and so i’ll never forget i was in the helicopter with him and he basically said mooc we got a first we get a radio message from one of our companies it might have been an alert company and they said we just had a contact you know we killed three we’ve can’t you know we got four weapons we captured a guy or whatever and they’re headed in this direction okay so hackers would turn to me and say MOOC you know let’s say give him 15 minutes we’re gonna hear from battle company 15 minutes later battle company comes up we just had her contact you know in their head and so this happened all day okay i saw this i was with him then the helicopter and but there was one vc we were flying near a canal and he was mortally wounded you could see the guy was dying basically he took his ak-47 and he threw it into the canal okay and the reason he did that is he didn’t want us to get that weapon because part of the body count was you matched how many weapons you you know if a univee portland they said well we kill 20 and we got one weapon you kind of say wait a second mm-hmm you know so when I saw that I knew that this guy you know we were up against a tough enemy mm-hmm you know and and so so you got to respect your enemy and I want to pull some before we move past Vietnam and hack I want to pull some stuff out of about-face just to kind of hear you hear your your thoughts on it I’m gonna start off with one that you’ve talked about a little bit but here we go this is from about faced by david hackworth and this is a quote from someone else it says hack had the knack of being able to size people up very quickly almost instantaneously and I’d say 99% of the time he was right he could look at a person and in his vernacular the guy was either a stud or he wasn’t there was no in-between if he was a stud hack would find a way to get him and he would not take no from people if he wanted them because he wanted a winning team and if a person didn’t want to go with him then immediately the guy wasn’t a stud you see because anybody who knew hack or came into contact with him really wanted to be with him after he’d known him for a while and that’s a quote from Brigadier General James H Fukuyama which is you you’re quoted in the book and you’ve talked about that a little bit and he just had he must have extremely magnetic personality for you to say that if you spent time with him you wanted to be with him oh absolutely and and he I used to say he had the Midas touch everything the guy touched just whether it was in the military whether it was in business whether it was with women and this guy you know he was a stud himself and and you know and but he was he was also a sensitive guy I’ll never forget when you know I tell people he wasn’t the most moral guy that I knew but he was the the most ethical officer I ever served with what I mean by that is he never did anything for personal gain he always did things for the unit and for the soldiers okay but did he have affairs and things like that yeah and he used to tell me he said mu you know I should have never married because my love is the army mmm you know so he he basically he turned down the War College he could have gone to the workout she turned it down because he said hey I’m on another battalion mm-hmm in Vietnam you know I mean he would have been a journal there’s no question about it had he not stood up you know when he was no six and and and you know he was I think he was the youngest oh six at that time in the army but he was a guy who who was he was sensitive though and he took her he did take care of his family I think I can say this now because it’s you know I think statute of limitations might be gone but you know in those days you weren’t you weren’t able to take a lot of cash out of Vietnam you know and and I basically one day when he knew I was going back home oh and by the way he did everything he could to convince me to stay and to extend in Vietnam okay he was he had moved down to be the the senior advisor for the arvin Airborne Division which was meeting the palace guard around Saigon okay and he knew all my hot buttons you have to understand I was a bachelor guy at this time right and and and the airborne the Vietnamese airborne wore special fatigues they were like Tiger fatigue and they had red berets you know and I’m just this young stud guy who likes uniforms and he said Mook he said why don’t you come down here and I’ll make you the g1 advisor that’s the admin guy right and he said but when you come down if you’re an advisor for the Vietnamese Arab woman you get jumpy you know so that’s extra money right yeah and he said and I’ll give you two are in ours you can because he knew I wanted to go to Japan and see my relatives so in six months he said give you to our nurse right so guys you know he’s trying to move the you know the Sun and the moon to get me to extend six months and and I said sir I appreciate it but I had some close calls and I figured the next one would have Mowgli amma written that bullet would him look Wilma written on it and I said no thanks you know I appreciate it but I’m out of here so so I left you know you’re talking about the way he was you know so so pro army and yet he rebelled against the army in a way and here’s a another thing from the book he says what a mistake it was to listen to the generals of corporate HQ who were briefed only in zero defect terms and so far from the cutting edge expected nothing less it was amongst the biggest mistakes of the war the politicians only listen to these generals and the generals only listened to themselves few people asked frontline soldiers the only ones who really knew could you guys or could you because you were pretty close to him could you sense that his frustration with the army did he talk about it with you did he how did he treat you know that’s a very hard thing for a leader to do if you’re if your senior leadership is telling you to do stuff that doesn’t make sense or but you know hey we can get it done and we’re gonna do it it’s a hard line to walk to say look we support the chain of command this is what they’re tell him to do I want to spin it in a positive way everyone’s gonna think that we’re doing it for the right reasons because if I say hey look MOOC here’s what I want you to do and it’s it’s dumb but we’re getting told to do it anyway so that’s not a good way to lead no so he wouldn’t say that so he would he would support the chain and he would he would presented in the in the way in which you know you’ve talked about the mission and he would make sure that he would accomplish the mission but he would do it his way you know you know the phrase battlefield expediency that’s so we did all the time you know I mean screw it what you know what are they gonna do send us to Vietnam we’re already there you know so you know we just did what we had to do and you know I mean the stupid rules of engagement that we had you know where you’d have to get approval to fire on people even though you’re receiving fire you know and and just nutty stuff you know and we just say hey you know we’re gonna do what we have to do and that’s what we did mm-hmm here’s what he when he took over the battalion the following day I took over the battalion from Lieutenant Colonel Franklin a Hartle in a parade field exchange of command in the middle of the mekong delta what kind of war have I got myself into I wondered a perfectly starched general Ewell was there having flown in for the occasion in his polished choppers there was other brass too and photographers the American flag the battalion colors which were ceremoniously passed on to me and all of this before the scroungy estas spiritless assembly of soldiers I’d ever seen incredibly none of the generals or Colonels seemed to notice the slack condition of my new charges or their positions from the outset I realized that to make this unit effective military force I’d have to implement about a thousand changes so I figured we’d start with five a day little things basic things like where your steel pot and clean and carry your rifle at all times an ammunition will not be worn Pancho Villa’s style my first order was that darkness that come darkness the fire support base perimeter would pull back 300 meters the troops instantly began to grumble about this but it was the next order that really began the mutinous feeling within my hard luck outfit anything you can’t carry 24 hours a day is gone in the next chop chopper goodbye tents and cots and rucksacks and Phu Gawker’s the bitching and moaning began in earnest as piles and piles of junk mounted at the LZ to be whisked away by Chinook but I didn’t care I wasn’t there to have them like me again we already talked about this and I this comes up a lot from a leadership perspective do you is it more important to be liked or is it more important to be respected is it more important to and I actually had a guy asked me this question the other day is it more important to win or to be liked and I said well those two things aren’t mutually exclusive at all you’re right you’re absolutely correct and they’re not mutually exclusive you know if you demonstrate to your soldiers that you care for them professionally that’s you’ll be liked there’s no question because they know that you’re there for them and you know you don’t as as it’s said there you know you’re not there to win a popularity contest you know you’re not there to be politically correct you’re there to accomplish your mission but also make sure that your guys come back and I think I’m starting to tie together something very clearly in my head right now and that is you know you’re your number two rule of leadership which is caring and I think if you if you care about your people and they see that you care about them that Trump’s the fact that you want them to do things the right way because the reason you want them to do the things right way is because you care about them and it’s gonna keep alive make you successful yeah absolutely absolutely you know I when I was a young officer I well no I at that time when I was a company come after Hackworth left we had a another battalion commander come in right and he wrote on my OER all my career I had Maxo er’s really good stuff but on this one he wrote that and I’ll take this hit and day of the week he said I was too concerned for my troops sometimes and and I said ok I’ll take that wow that’s that’s a interesting perspective yeah and you know this is one of those dichotomies as well because one of the hardest things about being a leader is obviously you care about your men so much and yet you are gonna do things you are gonna put them in situations that there’s gonna put their lives at risk at risk and that is that is something that every leader has to release military leaders they have to they have to find a way to get a handle on that because you love your guys and you want to take care of them but you do have to do your mission you know in that that’s one of the hardest things to balance talking about the morality of war a little bit this was a and again this is why you know that the story that I opened up with you could see that that one clearly had to do with with having moral dilemmas and having guilt because hackworth gave a guy in order and the guy followed the order maybe not the way hacker thought he was but the moral injury that he got from that he said lasted his whole life of giving an order and somebody does something you didn’t expect to him they end up getting killed it’s one of his guys when his guys that he loved gets killed because of the way he led here’s another kind of moral situation going back to the book they’re flying around they’re on a mission we went down to about 100 feet the suspects were still running but this closer inspection confirmed my initial feeling they were just eight kids no older than 13 or 14 simply scared shitless as they ran looking for cover carrying neither weapons nor military equipment no I told the pilot I don’t give you permission to fire I’ll put an infantry insert on them I instructed the platoon leader whose men were aboard the four slicks where to land with gunships covering the platoon hit the ground the immediately received small arms fire and took a couple of wounded the little kids were as my savvy pilot had said from the outset Vietcong it was a major lesson learned for me but one impossible to etch in stone I had a couple of men wounded who would not have been if I just said to blow those kids away but I couldn’t say blow him away because they appeared unarmed yes they were VC but they could just as well have been kids ditching school who happened to get caught in the crossfire anything was possible and I suddenly realized it would not be easy this Delta war it wasn’t easy to tell the good guys from the bad guys anywhere in South Vietnam but here in the Delta it was damn near impossible again very similar to what my guys dealt with over in Ramadi was very hard to tell who was good and who was bad and the enemy knew they could just put the you know drop the weapon and walk away and now they were considered innocent even though 20 seconds prior to that they were shooting how did you keep your men from becoming so callous that they were just gonna start shooting kids because they suspected they were VC how hard did you have to keep control of that well I my response to that is the American soldier innately is ethical it’s it’s in our culture not to shoot women and children now guys you know if they’re you know that that that might be something else but we and we do not shoot civilians just you know who are who are were caught with you know we run across them just because they’re there and we want to take revenge don’t do that as an army you’re generally speaking now there are times when people lose it and I understand that that’s that’s the stress of war that’s happened in all wars mm-hmm I don’t condone it but I can understand and so to answer your question we really didn’t have to our guys were pretty professional and I was probably proud to serve with them I didn’t they didn’t I didn’t see any of that okay yeah yeah and this just just tells me once again it’s about leadership because here you can see HACC clearly leaning towards making sure he’s doing the right thing even though he’s a guy that loves his troops and wants to take care of him he still leans towards doing the right thing and from what you’re saying that filtered all the way through the chain of command and we we took an in-depth look I’ve actually done two podcasts concerning the meal I mascar and what happened there and it was just so clear that the leadership was completely at fault and the way that they led those troops and it was when I went through to try and pull something positive out of the meal I Massacre the positive message that I got from it was that it was one it was one officer who had flown it was Thompson I believe his name was but he’d flown over he’d seen what was happening he flew back to base told the the senior leadership this is what’s going on on the ground the senior leadership radioed in to the field and said stop killing people and the they literally instantly stopped they stopped the massacre just because a leader stepped up and said stop so good leadership completely changed the situation as it was ongoing and and clearly if there would’ve been a better leader on the ground that was leading in the right way it never would have even started so you can see here from what hack saying the way he led and the way he treated unknown people and then the way that was carried out through the whole battalion that’s another amazing testament to good leadership yeah and and one thing about me ly which I tell people is that it was the exception that proves the rule that the United States military that that was an exception oh yeah yeah you know the the rule in our military is we don’t we don’t do that and that proved it I mean I I didn’t see you know there were other armies there who were more ruthless like the like the rocks mm-hmm the rocks were not there the Republic of Korea they were not there the wind the hearts and minds of the people mm-hmm they were there to win the war so if they would go by a village and they were fired upon they’d destroy the village and after a while nobody fired on the rocks mm-hmm when Hackworth now gets wood he got wounded in eighth time yeah well you I thought you were getting to that when you read that one quote but the way now I wasn’t there with him when he when he got his eighth Purple Heart but I know the story and and basically there were guys who were in in bad shape and he lands the CNC in the middle of them in fact that might have been it and maybe you they landed it in the middle of a firefight or hacked it he ordered the pilot that take him down and he does put the wounded guys into the CNC well the CNC isn’t that big you know there’s no room for hack so he stands on the skids and they take off and he gets hit in the leg and that was his eighth Purple Heart well after that you know he could tell the guys in the battalion I want you to walk through this wall of fire and the response would be where do you want us to go you know he led by example mm-hmm but is that what caused the army to say okay we’re gonna did they pull it did they pull him from the battalion at that point when he got his aid yeah pretty much that was that was it cuz well it was if you got three purple hearts you went home without it was that the deal I don’t know I only had one I have no idea but you know they they basically said you know we can’t afford to lose you I mean if they you know if you get killed I mean that’s a big hit and just a morale and you know and so your honor you’re out of there in the field mm-hmm okay so he went up to plate who to become the deputy he was the g3 core advisor for two core okay which was the Central Highlands and when my company was pulled out of Vietnam and I refused to go and I said hey I want to stay here I called hatch and I said sir you know I don’t really want to go back can you use me I had orders the next day to go to play whoo and then you went up to play Coon and you start you guys were doing advising for the Arvin yes we were the we were the McVie that’s the military assistance command Vietnam people and I had there was a close call that I had when this was another moral injury thing by the way which I really had really buried had not really thought a lot about it but we we had an inspection team that went out on the Special Forces camps around the border of Cambodia and Laos and Vietnam and he had laser rang than had docto in the central highlands and so we would fly into these camps and there were three people on this inspection team so to speak it was the deputy coroner who was a no 6 a full colonel you know big deal there was the command sergeant major highest ranking enlisted advisor also a big deal and I was the young captain okay carrying everybody’s bags note-takers yeah right so so we land on this Special Forces camp and we come under attack and the sergeant major is killed and he was maybe 20 meters away from me it was a rocket and it was just he was in the wrong place you know it could have been me if I was you know if they’d come in the other direction well the back side of that story is that he was scheduled to go on ahran the next day to Hawaii to meet his waiting wife to celebrate their 25th wedding anniversary okay now obviously I was just a young captain but I outranked him okay I could have ordered him not to go on that mission why risk it you know because he he was gonna meet his wife the next day I didn’t do that okay and I I’ve thought about that in terms of survivor guilt and and all of that it was and that’s something that’s come up in my you know my studying this moral injury stuff at this point did you you sure now you’re working with Hackworth directly and are you starting to sense his frustration about the war at all yeah a little bit yeah well no more than a little bit because the the the g34 the core was fairly corrupt a guy and hackworth was very frustrated with that and that’s why he left actually well let’s backtrack I I yeah he he was moved down to the Vietnamese airborne because he really was not happy I think he might have been moved I never really got the story on that why he went down there and now at this point what’s your what are you thinking about your career in your life oh I’d already decided I was resigning when I got back to the states and what made you what made you lean in that direction because I mean you did more years in Junior ROTC than anyone has ever done before visited ROTC and you had all that military stuff and now you got your combat tour in Vietnam under what what what tilted you in the other direction I felt the Army was going in the wrong direction when it came to leadership I thought that they were looking for managers and not commanders I was in some positions during my career where I had access to officer efficiency reports and I could see were the ratings of the senior officers that lieutenant Colonel’s and the battalion commanders were the tendency was to give the managers high ratings Erie’s irrespective of their command and abilities and and then my personal career was was not managed very well hackworth Hackworth wanted me to stay he knew I was I was thinking of resigning in fact that’s why he offered me the company because you know he thought that experience might turn things around you know and so on Here I am at still with hackworth in the battalion right and he contacted his friends at the Pentagon and he said listen you guys we got a stud here and he’s thinking of leaving you know show him some personal attention we got a chance to save him you know he told me this later and so I get this letter from the Pentagon you know I’m out in the middle of nowhere you know and I first letter they’d ever sent me and they said dear Campton Moakley um we have reviewed your 201 file very carefully right and we believe you have promised for graduate school okay only problem is I already had my man which means that they didn’t really pay a lot of tension right there review I I showed the letter to him and I said hey you know I mean this is crazy you know I’m gonna put my career in the hands of these guys you know and that pretty well sealed it for me and so did you did you submit your resignation while you were still in Vietnam were to come home as soon as I came home I did I wanted to finish the tour in Vietnam which I did and then I told the army I’m gonna be out of here you know and so they assigned me to Fort Sheridan Illinois right because I in Chicago and I finished I have three months there and then I was done and then did you at what point did you decide you were gonna stay in the reserves Oh immediately okay that was never a question okay I was committed to doing 20 years turned out to be 32 but I you know I was committed to doing 20 because especially at that time then 7071 the reserve components didn’t have a lot of combat experience guys and I felt that it was important that I try to help you know the reserves be ready basically and I had something to contribute so that’s why I joined the reserves and then you start on your civilian career yeah as well yeah and what happened there was I I worked for a Japanese importing and exporting company it’s called a trading company and it was name of company was Matsui and company’s world we know we used to have a saying that the Sun never set on Mitsui because they had offices in like 165 countries okay and it was a very prestigious company if anybody they had quote-unquote Mitsui men you know if you were a Mitsui guy that was a big deal it was like their Harvard graduates would all go there you know and things like that and I was at the Chicago office and the problem was I actually experienced reverse discrimination by that what I mean is that I had studied Japanese history political science and Japanese language a little bit at the University of Illinois okay and I had a pretty good work ethic okay and but they couldn’t it couldn’t compute in their mind that I talked about the Japanese okay all the manager positions were Japanese like the branch manager he was a vice president you know and all that I had no opportunity to ever get to even to be a department manager in that company because they looked at me and they couldn’t compute that I didn’t speak Japanese fluently okay so in their mind I’m the village idiot you know even though I have my master’s degree and commanded a company in combat I had signed for ten million dollars worth of equipment I had more responsibilities in life than these guys who ever know you know but they didn’t get it they didn’t understand that so I did that for about five years I mean I was treated well I have no complaints but you know I didn’t expect any guarantees but I had hoped I would have an opportunity to compete mm-hm and when I saw that wasn’t that that wasn’t going to happen I had a roommate from the U of I who was a member of the Chicago Board Options Exchange and options trading was just starting at that time and he was a great visionary a little weak on details and so he had an operation on the floor of the exchange and he realized he needed to get a handle on that and I’m pretty good with details so he called me and he said Jim I know you’re not happy you know where you’re at would you want to come work with me and and I said hey wait a second you know I don’t have one day of Finance formal education I didn’t know the difference between a stock and a bond or you know muscle s a stock option and he said don’t worry about it I know your abilities you’re good with math you know this is not rocket scientist stuff and I said okay I’ll do it in that started out of 35 year career in the financial services industry and I became a member of the New York Stock Exchange the Chicago Board Options Exchange I was very blessed I became part owner the company so that enabled me to devote all the time I did in the reserves that I did because that was part of the deal I made with my friend I said listen if you want me to join you I’m bringing the reserves with me and you have to understand you know if I’m called on going and if I’m in the reserves I’m gonna give it a hundred percent you know and and but he was he had gone through our TC with me okay so he was he was an army officer so he understood so I was able to have a successful career at the same time and you moved up really quickly through the ranks in the reserves yeah I had I had like like I said before Jocko I had great NCOs who made me look good I had commanders who mentored me I was I was a brigadier general at the age of 42 and I was a major-general three years later I was the youngest general in the Army at the time so yeah I was I was challenged I had great assignments and so I was very blessed and my wife supported me through all of this without her I would not have been able to get the first base I noticed you you mentioned a couple times General William Levine yes and and the impact that he had on you he was a guy that landed a d-day at Utah Beach and was one of the people that liberated Dachau and in World War two yes did was there any significant lesson learned that he passed on to you there absolutely he he I think he’s personally responsible for that balanced part of my leadership concept that I’ve developed over my career he really emphasized family and keep in mind when I joined the reserves I didn’t have a clue about the citizen soldier you know those of us on and of duty what do we know about the garden reserves and their pressure you know what they deal with you know people in the garden reserves have to balance three balls at the same time right you’ve got your your family you’ve got your civilian career that puts bread and butter on the table and then you’ve got the reserves on the guard you know what you know and so you’re balancing all that stuff and general Lavigne I always remember emphasize the family he always made sure that we were aware of the stresses on the family you know when we were gone I’ll never forget in my career without fail that’s when the furnace would break down that’s when we’d have a blizzard so my 95 pound wife would have to go out there and shovel the snow cuz I wasn’t there you know our son Jay who’s who you know he he basically was a rascal when he was a young guy and my Mike had to take him to the emergency room in the hospital like three times I don’t even know where three times a week and I don’t even know where it’s at you know cuz I wasn’t home so you know the stresses on the fit so he really drove that home and I understood better the stresses on the citizen-soldier which are tremendous you know at least when you’re on active duty you’re focused mm-hmm you know and you’re in a community where everybody is going through the same thing so they all understand you know the stresses on the marriage they you know they share things they can help each other out but in the reserves and guard you know the rest of the you go to a meeting one week in a month you know and unless you’re in leadership you know that’s about it and you know you don’t have the you don’t have the bonding and the community strength that you do when you’re under duty yeah when we got to Ramadi it was the two to eight National Guard unit out of Pennsylvania and reserve units that were on the ground and they’d been there for I think they’ve been there for 14 months but boy they were outstanding soldiers all of them it was a real honor to work with them a little bit and then get the turnover and great guys they you ran you ended up running training for like twenty one out of your 25 years in the reserves that’s that’s that’s a lot of training to run yeah I was and once again I’d say you’ve heard me say this before it’s a god thing basically the army was the only service that really had a great process where we had Reserve units whose wartime mission was to take over the training centers you know like the Great Lakes Naval Training Center you know but the Navy didn’t have that the Air Force didn’t have that the Marines didn’t him that we had reserve units that their wartime mission was to go to Fort Benning for example that was my divisions mission was to go to Fort Benning and take over the training of the infantry officers and and recruits not officers to recruits at Fort Benning so that the active-duty soldiers that were already there who are up to speed on everything you know could go join fighting units basically so that was that was the mission all right so I joined when I came off of active duty I joined the 85th training division in Chicago and that was an infantry training division at the time and I was with them for 18 years and I commanded at the company level battalion level Brigade level and I was the assistant division commander and every year we would go on annual training to a active-duty training fort and we take over the training of the recruits so I did it at Dix I did it at Fort Bliss I did it at Fort Ord and then finally with the seventieth I did it at Fort Benning and so then what happened was I I was the commander of the 70th division out of Livonia Michigan and Desert Storm came okay and I knew we were going to be mobilized you know the handwriting was on the wall okay so I put together a list I had 16 subordinate units in my devaglia three brigades and the Training Command and other things and so I made a list of ones through 16 and I prioritized them okay and I and it was a mixture of readiness leadership you know that’s how I prioritize them and I also had to be sensitive to I had units in Indiana and Michigan so I couldn’t take all the Michigan units and leave out Indiana guys that wouldn’t have been fair because everybody wanted to be mobilized yeah okay you have to understand this was this is when this would be the first time okay and we’ve been practicing for like 25 years you know you’re ready for game day yeah so the question is if the balloon went up would people show up you know and so so I had this list and I went to TRADOC which was our higher headquarters at Fort Monroe Virginia and I said listen here’s my list here’s my division okay I said use this list and if you’re gonna mobilize my division or any part of my division do it in disorder and don’t screw with this this is the best way this is the best way my division will serve you know the army did they comply oh yeah they were delighted possessive I was the only division commander that had done that so they went out to the other 11 division commanders and hey hey say we need some lists you know and that and they did exactly what I told them to do because they mobilized half of my division so they just went right down the list you know down to eight or nine and that was it you know now you ended up having kind of a runnin at the end of your career yeah I had several you know notice because of half words you know about face and and and the first one was I went on The Oprah Winfrey Show and basically my mom was still alive at that time she used to watch Oprah during the day and Oprah was out of Chicago right that’s right and and then she and she used to and I didn’t know this because I never watched it but she used to announce ahead of time subjects that she was going to cover and if anybody knew any one who were experts in that area let her know you know so she could get them so she decided this is in the late 80s okay now put yourself back at that time when the economy was not doing so hot and the Japanese economy was doing real good you know because their computers their automobiles their televisions and so people were blaming the Japanese about our poor economic situation and it was called Japan bashing mm-hm so in fact there was a Chinese guy’s name was Victor Chen who was killed in Detroit by some automobile workers with baseball bats because they thought he was Japanese he was actually Chinese okay so open decided they have a show about Japan bashing so she said if anybody knows anyone you know in the Japanese American community to what might be a good you know person on this please let me know well my mom saw that and she said you need to get on the show you know so I tried calling I couldn’t get you know how this is you know I couldn’t get through whatever well I have a very I had at that time a very influential journalist in Chicago his name was Irv cups in it who had a very famous it’s called cups column he used to interview presidents kings and queens political people you know at in Chicago and at a restaurant and so so I called cup I said hey cut you know I’m trying to get through on this thing with Oprah and and he said I’ll see what I can do okay two hours later I get a call from the executive producer at the show and he says I understand that you’re a general in the army I said yeah I’m I’m in the Army Reserves and and that you’re the highest-ranking ancient American and our armed forces today and I said yeah that’s right and he said well and and I I was trying to figure out where the guy was going right well he was trying to see if I could chew gum and walk at the same time so once he figured I could do that he said you know we’d like to have you on the show okay so I said fine when is it tomorrow okay so I said okay I’m in so I called my at that time I was working for a New York Stock Exchange firm and I called the headquarters in New York I said hey I need a day offs and they gave it to me and then I called the Chief of Army Reserves office because keep in mind on the two-star general right and I said hey I’m going on The Oprah Show you know and what’s the subject well the subject is Japan bashing but I’m being invited because you know I’m high-ranking Japanese American in our army and I’m gonna wear my uniform you know so I get a call back okay from the chief of public affairs of the army now he’s a one-star okay okay and I’m a two-star okay so he calls and he said I understand you’re gonna be on The Oprah Show yeah that’s right what’s the subject Japan bashing oh it’s not about the army no it’s not about the military at all yeah but I’m being invited because I’m the highest-ranking Japanese American in the Army in the military the whole military and being in Norway at the time and he said well then we don’t want you to wear your uniform okay and I said listen I take my responsibilities very seriously as a role model for minorities this is a great opportunity to let people know that we have equal opportunity in our armed forces I don’t see this as a as a as a possibility to fail I see this is a opportunity to succeed and I and I just said I you know I don’t really have a lot of time for this because it’s gonna be the next day right so I said is this an order you know um you know the secretary or from the chief I don’t care you know whoever’s above me is this an order and he said why I can’t tell you it’s an order I said well okay in that case thank you very much for calling me you know I appreciate what you said I’ve taken it all in under consideration bottom line I’m wearing my uniform and that was the end of it okay so he writes a memorandum for record that to the chief of staff in the army that went into my file that said you know I spoke to general mama I told him that was you know above his pay grade levels and he might get involved with you know things that went out of hand and all that and he basically told me that he was gonna wear his uniform so so I go on the show okay and I’m ready I do my homework okay and we come back from commercial break and Oprah starts out by saying and today we have with us Major General Jim Buckley AMA the highest-ranking asian-american japanese-american in our military today camera and I’m gonna sit there in a civilian suit I mean what kind of a message would that a ridiculous I was in my class ace of course okay so and the first words out of my mouth were Oprah I want everyone to understand that whatever I say today is the opinion of jammu Yama I am NOT representing the Department of the army I’m not representing the Department of Defense however I am a soldier in the United States Army I’m proud of it we have equal opportunity in our armed forces and the message and the rest of the thing went very well and we they actually had a guy on there who I would affectionately refer to as a redneck and he was blaming the Japanese for all the problems and some of it was correct where they weren’t fair in in some of the economic dealings with us you know they were clear their markets were not as open to our products as they should have been but on the other hand the guy was seeing some nutty stuff like he said well they’re costing us jobs okay so I said okay who’s the fourth largest automobile manufacturer in the country the answer Honda America okay they have a plant in Marysville Ohio that employed 3 500 Americans okay they can’t close that plan and take it back there Japan it’s in the United States and I said I’m also tired of hearing people complain about American quality because the Honda Civics produced at that plant had fewer defects than Honda Civics that were coming from Japan JD Powers Anaya I had all this already don’t mess with the general so then I told him I said and guess what the steel for that plant comes from Indiana which is also jobs for Americans okay then the other thing the guy said was the the the Asians are taking over our universities I said what’s that all about and he said well they’re getting all the scholarships okay and I said listen the Asian Americans are not smarter than any other ethnicity or race the reason they do so well in school is the parents get involved and they make sure that their kids study and they emphasize the value of education that got a huge approval from the audience you know so what happened was there was a believe it or not a federal judge in Chicago who saw that program okay so he writes a letter to the Secretary of Defense saying you know unless I saw the Oprah show and there was this Major General Jim Okayama who really did a great job for you guys and you guys should be proud of him right so the Secretary of Defense at that time was Dick Cheney okay so he endorses the letter down to the Secretary of the army the secretary army endorses the letter down to the chief of staff of the army so when that hits my file same time being another thing hit my file basically one cancel the other did you send a photocopy that back – yeah but that’s you know so right down in there the army knew what they were dealing with because I you know I was you know it was an opportunity to show that we have equal opportunity Armed Forces I tell people that one of the proudest things of my service was that when I would lose track of people’s race you know I stopped looking at people as as Asian American or African American and or Hispanic Americans I looked at them as private corporal lieutenant whatever their job was in the military that’s how I caught myself forgetting sometimes of people you know cuz I tell people everybody was olive drab there yeah yeah so that was my first bit first now you started to say that the book the book did the book start to play any kind of role in your career did people start talking about hack Worth’s book no not really uh that that mean I what I mean by that is you know the whole stance that he took about Vietnam to risk his career and just actually just saying hey I’m out of here mmm because you know I’ve I’ve done this now for 30-something years and and frankly it was weighing on him let me talk about the moral injury of knowing that you’re leading soldiers in combat when they could have been the policy could have been done better right which would have resulted in fewer casualties yeah that’s that’s I don’t know if there’s a heavier weight to bear than that that’s a heavy one and then what was the next thing you took a stance on well and the next thing that happened which caused the end of my career basically is I like that you say that with a smile on your face well I I don’t regret a day there I would if I had to do it again today I do it in a heartbeat and here’s what happened was I was an Army Reserve guy sold for full transparency to your listeners okay I was on active duty for five years I was on an army reservist for 27 years okay now the army has three components they have the active component they have the Army Reserve and they have the Army National Guard okay the the Army Reserve and Army National Guard are the so-called reserve components okay now the active army of course are the 24/7 that’s their full-time job the army reserves are a federal force and the Army Reserves fall into the normal army chain of command Department of the army we answer to the orders of the President okay Army National Guard does not fall into that chain of command nor do they report to the president they be port to the governors of each state it’s really a state organization although 95 percent of their budget comes from the federal government okay and as an Army reservist for 25 years 27 years I saw whenever it came to reducing the army force structure the Army Reserves would always get the short end and the guard would always be protected okay the actives would always take care of themselves that was never an issue okay but the so-called one army concept where everybody’s supposed to be together in this the reserves always got the short end of the stick and the reason for that is the reserves were a national force okay we were professional in you know in the military as you know you’re not supposed to be political you’re supposed to be a political mmm-hmm right not involved in lobbying and stuff like that the National Guard is very political it’s jobs for the state mm-hmm okay so whenever there’s the National Guard has so much political clout if you look at any presidential election just watch the week before the election in November that’s when the guard normally has their National Convention in DC okay and I can tell you every major presidential candidate shows up okay and and keep in mind they have the political support of a governor two senators and the congressman right the Army Reserve doesn’t have that political clout so frankly we’ve always gotten gotten screwed and so I I watched that for 25 years I said enough is enough and so I I found it a 501c3 organization called the Army Reserve Association which was comprised of officers enlisted and civilians the mission was to educate the public in Congress about the Army Reserves because people when they think of they hear of the reserves they think of the National Guard they don’t think of the Army Reserve which has armories and they have soldiers in every state in our Union but people don’t think about that okay so when Desert Storm ended right and when does her storm hit the army mobilized both National Guard and Reserve units okay the National Guard had now full transparency as I said I’m an Army Reserve guy okay so I’m pretty jaded on this you want to say that but you know the National Guard has great Patriots I’m not casting aspersions on them at all you know but a facts are facts and here’s what happened when when does the storm hit the National Guard has three so-called premier infantry brigades that were supposed to round out active duty divisions okay one of them was the 48th otter Georgia okay and there was an National Guard Brigade that in upon mobilization they would be assigned to that division and they would go to war with the division okay and what happened was when it came and by the way they had all the best equipment they had better equipment than some active army battalions and brigades they had Abrams tanks you have to understand this is the early 90s they had Abrams tanks and they had Bradley vehicles when a lot of active units didn’t have that okay but they were publicized as being the premier Army National Guard combat units that were ready to go to war okay when the balloon went up the army said we can’t send these guys they’re just gonna be cannon fodder so they sent them to the NTC the National Training Center in California for 90 days okay only problem was the war ended so quick they never got to they never got there mm-hmm all right the reserves on the other hand our soldiers performed magnificently we had helicopter units we had medical units we had Civil Affairs we had psyops we you know our people did extremely my training division perfect example you know we were mobilized I had my guys in the front gates of Fort Benning within 72 hours and my drill instructors around the trail my my-my-my instructors are on the platform teaching you know running the ranges and all that and so then when it came time to downsize is that where you took a stand yeah absolutely what happened was that you know when the we show a window desert storm and then the Soviet Union falls apart and the wall comes down right so everybody’s looking for this piece of unit to transfer money from the Defense Department to social services okay and so the Army has a process that’s called the total army analysis it’s a very good logical process so you can determine the force structure that we need for the army okay and the way it works is you look at what are the what are we facing throughout the world you know whether the problem area is you know and then you save yourself okay based on that how many divisions do infantry divisions do we need how many armored units how many helicopter battalion you know blah blah blah and then you face reality and you say how much money can we really get out of Congress for this so based on all that stuff you come up with a force structure okay the army didn’t do that what they did is they had the vice chief of staff of the army the Chief of Army Reserves the chief of the National Guard Bureau the president of the National Guard Association which is not a government and the president of the Reserve Officers Association go to a hotel and they cut a deal and it was called the off-site agreement because it wasn’t done at the Pentagon okay well I told you I had formed this Army Reserve Association mm-hmm right I had people in that meeting within five minutes I knew what happened and the Army Reserves really they they eliminated eighty percent of Army Reserve aviation and we had for Special Forces groups at that time in the reserve components there were two National Guard groups the 19th and 20th and two Army Reserve Special Forces groups the eleventh and the twelfth the twelfth of the zone was when the units that I was under my command and I was the deputy commanding general of an army reserve unit so I’ll give you an example we had a Blackhawk battalion once again in my army reserve under my command that fought in the Gulf they were so good that Schwarzkopf selected them for his taxi unit okay and they had received the it’s called the army aviation Association award triple-a award for the best Blackhawk battalion so that’s how good these guys were okay this Agreement eliminated that unit out of the Army Reserves and put it into the Illinois National Guard okay now I’m a big boy I I can I can except I don’t appreciate it as a taxpayer but I can accept waste of money or whatever where I draw the line in the sand is when you jeopardize soldiers lives and the readiness of our forces okay this unit overnight Oh what I didn’t tell you was the Illinois National Guard did not have one qualified Blackhawk pilot or mechanic they could not even fly those birds from Scott Air Force Base where we had them to the Illinois National Guard field they had to go to the Wisconsin and Minnesota Guard to borrow pilots so they could move those birds now the implication is that unit overnight went from c1 you know the highest readiness rating down the c5 which is non non deployable basically you know and it it took about three years plus to get that unit up to C 3 which is just marginal deployment level okay so that’s one example another example are those Special Forces groups okay the army looked at the four Reserve Component Special Forces groups and they said you know we only need two okay so we’ll eliminate the National Guard you know groups because you know why does the National Guard govern why does the governor you know Farsi speaking demolitions expert okay in the last time I looked we didn’t have an insurgency in Illinois so so the National Guard says no we don’t accept that so the Army with their tail between their legs go back to the drawing board and they looked at readiness which is what they probably should have done to begin with and they found out that the 12th group in the USA in the Army Reserves was the best out of the four and then it was either I think it was the 20th out of the guard was the second best so they said okay we got the solution we’ll take one out of each component right guard wouldn’t accept that so what did they do they eliminated both Army Reserve you know you know groups and I was livid because the 12th was under me at one time I wasn’t the commander of it but it was in my chain we had taken that unit from c4 to c2 which for a reserve unit to be able to get reservists to pass those special forces qualifications that’s not easy okay and they eliminated that unit now I’m a big boy okay when it came to like to the the helicopter units and I said okay take my pilot’s and so in and mechanics take the reserve patch off their shoulder make them National Guardsmen I’m good with it okay they wouldn’t do it because it was jobs for the guard so my guys had to find new jobs some of them had to actually change I Miles’s because you know there were no no aviation jobs for them right and just thank you you and I it’s taxpayers how much that cost us you know so so now I’m getting all kinds of calls from the field you know we didn’t have computers at that time in the internet so I get telephone calls and faxes saying general somebody’s got to stand up and fight this you know in that meeting I told you about that they had I found out from my moles that in essence they were gonna have a press conference the next day where everybody was gonna hold hands and sing Kumbaya and say that the Army has come up with this great agreement where everybody agrees and nobody disagrees well that wasn’t true mmm-hmm a lot of people disagreed with it so I called the vice chief of staff’s office at the Pentagon right not as Major General Jim ooyama but as Jim Okayama president Army Reserve Association okay so I call asking for a return call about this this press conference it’s gonna happen our announcement you know and I didn’t get a call back so the next morning an hour before their press conference we sent out a press release and we basically said this is not good this is you know shouldn’t go through need to have a GAO study of Government Accounting Office study and that pretty well got me into the crosshairs and so then what we did is and now keep in mind I had never done this in my life I never lobbied I had never been to Congress I had never walked the halls you know any of that stuff we had a way actually and I think I might have sent you some of this stuff but we had a meeting of the Army Reserve Association called for it in Washington DC and I had men and women come from all over the country and we went and we lobbied our senators and congressmen and we told them this is wrong this needs that there needs to be a Jo state needs to be studied right before it’s implemented okay now frankly I knew we were talking at windmills but I had to do it because you know all I was getting all these requests from sergeants and civilians and lieutenant and majors throughout the country saying somebody’s gotta fight this and they were right so I had to do it some then I get an invitation from a Congressional subcommittee okay it was not a subpoena so I didn’t have to go I could have said I’ve got a headache or I’ve got a conflict or whatever but I didn’t you know I said yeah I’ll be there and I went and I testified and a year later I was history shall we say but it’s like I said Jocko I I wouldn’t hesitate in a moment to do it again it’s when I was in Vietnam I knew that our generals are not standing up for us all the time like they should and I said never get to a point in life or it’s the difference between my career and and my soldiers the soldiers win yeah absolutely and that’s one of those balance things too is you know as leader when do you know you you want to toe the line and I have people ask me this pretty regularly well you know you always say you want to support the chain of command but what if the chain of command is wrong no it’s real simple answer if the chain of command is wrong and it’s something that matters like the safety of your troops the training of your troops then you stand up to it you know if it’s something that doesn’t matter for they go oh we want you to fill out this paperwork differently than you did it yesterday you know what I do I do it right I don’t care you know you want me to put my uniform on this way instead of that way that’s fine whatever I’ll do it you want to start putting soldiers of jeopardy that won’t that won’t stand so here’s what happened okay well all this stuff is going on the Washington Post puts this front page okay and it talks about how the the big controversy you know in my associations right at the forefront of all the so I’m quoted and all those now keep them on I’m still an active Army Reserve Major General and great honor right and and in fact before I testified I got a call from the chief of staff at TRADOC who’s a good friend of mine we were both major journals and and he didn’t tell me I shouldn’t go he kind of said that well you know it’s really not a good idea you know for you to go and he was a good friend of mine and I said John you know I I understand this is you have to do this this is your you know this is your job but I gotta go I can’t I cannot stand by and let this pass so he under well and and so that was also in the Washington Post you know like I was threatened I wasn’t threatened you know and so so basically I then the Army Times wrote an editorial which basically criticized the Army Reserves especially in my association you know in and saying the army reserves are not team players they’re crybabies you know and but what got me is when they said they’re putting out bad information okay that was in their editorial okay so I wrote an op-ed okay which to their credit they published him and in the op-ed I said number one where is and the title of their their editorial was the enemy is us okay mmm-hmm and I said I agree with you the enemy is us but the problem is number one where is you didn’t list in detail the false information that was being put out by the reserves so you need to do that I said that in the op-ed they never did by the way because we had never put out anything false but the second thing I said and I said if we go to war in the next 18 months and this thing goes through we’re gonna have people coming back in body bags that would not have I mean now that’s a pretty serious statement is indeed okay and you would think if I was chicken little saying the sky was falling that they would have been inundated with letters from the field say the generals gone too far right they didn’t get one letter and so but so because of the stand I took needless to say the army wasn’t real happy with me and a year later when it came time to to get a new assignment surprise surprise I was not considered there were no assignments that I was considered eligible for and so I I said this been fun so the Chief of Army Reserve actually wanted me to stay and he said this too shall pass so why don’t you stay you can go into a control group which is kind of this administrative pool of people who don’t have assignments and maybe in a year or two you can come back you know we’ll get you an assignment and I said no I said you know the Army’s made it very clear you know they don’t want my services they don’t think I have any value and I’m gonna move on I’m gonna move on in life mm-hmm ya know so what I did now even though you moved on you retired you didn’t stop serving by any stretch and and you know I look at the military outreach that you started is really your new way of serving it was that is that an accurate statement oh absolutely what what happened was you know my wife is so wonderful she’s she said she’s not as as Christian as I am but she lives her life better than I do and so I’m having my personal pity party feeling sorry for myself because my 32 year career is down the toilet right and she said Jim you know God is sending you a message number one that you know this chapter in your life is over okay number two you survived Vietnam you also became attain the rank of two-star general which was the highest and reservist could get at that time okay and then she says number three and you got me as a wife how can I argue with that right but she was absolutely right what happened was God brought other things into my life at that time Promise Keepers which is a men’s Christian group I got involved with a church in Chicago a Willow Creek Community Church which was a very famous evangelical church I I led a men’s small group I lead a men’s monthly breakfast I got involved with the Department of Veterans Affairs which I had never been involved in before at a national level and I was the chairman of an advisory committee on minority veterans and I was I was on that for five years so I learned about the VA system all of this was in preparation for me to eventually start military outreach USA about seven years ago which is a non-profit faith-based organization for the very simple concept Jocko we’re trying to develop a national network of partners mostly houses of worship of all faiths by the way and organizations like the VFW American Legion Rotary clubs Lions Clubs high schools this is all at the local community level that will reach out to our military community which we defined by the way as active duty reserves National Guard veterans of all eras and their family members we stressed the family members equally because they serve and sacrifice as well okay and to reach out to them to be a welcoming environment to appreciate their service recognize that and to offer hope and help if they need it now the churches and synagogues want to help they don’t know how to do it because they don’t understand the military culture they don’t know the issues that our military community is facing and they don’t know where the resources are that’s where military outreach USA comes in we provide all of that information we have webinars we have publications we have DVDs we have presentations and everything that we do is free of charge no cost the only thing we ask is when people join us as partners either as a house of worship or as an organization that they commit to take our materials and use them to help our military community and it doesn’t cost them anything and if people want to want to help out military outreach USA no the website is military outreach usa org that’s correct and then from there what what are you looking for well we have numerous programs because we understand houses of worship come in all shapes and sizes okay so we have different programs that they can choose from some are as simple as a church can list the names of service members who are currently serving you know either relatives or or members of the church and people can pray for them prayer is so important when you’re overseas especially in a combat situation I know it helped me a lot when I was in combat I need it all I could get I’ll tell you but also they could do things like send packages son letters help today who writes letters nobody you know it’s all email and all that stuff how about getting a letter right at mail call how neat is that you know but then we can also do things for veterans in fact we we have two years ago we started a program and by the way we have a memorandum of agreement that was signed by the Department of Veterans Affairs in 2016 by the secretary himself which recognized military outreach USA as a national partner with them on a program that we initiated called veterans exiting homelessness okay now here’s the thing the VA has done a very good job in reducing the veteran homeless population it’s still too high but it’s three years agos like a hundred and fifty thousand oh you know it’s like fifty thousand no which is still too high but look at the look at the reduction okay well that’s created a new problem and the problem is when they take a homeless veteran male or female some with kids off the street and they work with a caseworker or a social worker okay and the social worker feels that they’re stabilized and now they can get them to what so is called permanent housing which is really an apartment that’s God that’s subsidized by a HUD Vash voucher okay they give them the keys to the apartment right but homeless people that’s all they give them so just think it the first time you moved into an apartment you need stuff Lysol toilet paper buckets sponges mops you know dishes how about a bed homeless people they get a one-bedroom apartment but guess what they don’t have a bet right so we came up with this program called moving essentials and we listed things like we have a bathroom kit we have a kitchen kit we even have a beds for vets program nurse okay and what we’ve done is we’ve gone out to our our our churches our partners you know organizations and we’ve asked them can you conduct a donation drive of this stuff okay I’m not asking them collect money give me the stuff okay and then it’s delivered to the VA Medical Center social worker and they distribute it to the veterans so we know they’re going to veterans okay because you know there are a lot of people out there cleaning to be veterans who are not and so we know they’re going to veterans and it goes out almost as quick as it comes in okay this has helped us a great deal as an organization because before we’re at a point in time where we really can move up to the next level as an organization but we frankly need volunteers and money okay because we don’t have a stamp we’ve done all this on a shoestring basically and so with this program we now have results that we can show people okay so if people come to me and say Jim you know what difference are you guys making two years ago all I could say was while we’re developing this network of partners and we’re asking none to help you know in their communities which did make a difference by the way I mean we prevented some suicides we’ve helped people that needed stuff you know but we didn’t have I mean I don’t have the staff to record all of this stuff you know but when we came up with this program we have a tracking thing where we know how many veterans are being helped we know what’s been collected and we know so now if somebody says what difference do you make okay since January of 2016 we have helped over 31 000 veterans we’ve collected over 750 000 items in fact I think it’s over a million though and valued at almost two million dollars and we have probably just provided this month our 1000th bed okay and so now I’ve got stuff that I can tell people this well we’ve come up with the new program this year and it’s called adopt a caregiver okay see what we’re trying to do is find find gaps where there’s a need and nobody else is filling it so we first we did that veterans exiting homelessness thing well now there are 5 5 million military caregivers in our country okay serving over 1 1 million mill former military okay and they get some help from the VA but not a lot as much as they need okay so we are now going to our churches and our organizations and we’re saying we have this program adopt a caregiver okay and if you want to be a caregiver you let us know and we’ll contact the local social worker and volunteer support at the VA facility near you and we’ll hook you up with a caregiver that needs help now this could be anything could be babysitting could be mowing a lawn it could be shoveling snow it could be showing up with a meal it could be just showing up and being there for three hours and let the caregiver get a break okay this is not rocket scientist stuff it’s an easy program but it’s something that if we can get this moving like we did the veterans exiting homelessness it’s gonna be a tremendous help for our veterans and but most importantly for the caregivers you see I and another lifetime my wife and I were hospice patient volunteers we did that for six years so I know how it is to deal with terminal illness okay but I also witnessed that it’s the caregivers who are sometimes need to help more than the patient you know and so in this case we’ve got military caregivers that need help and we can do it through this program well it sounds like like I said you’re continuing to serve even though you’re no longer in uniform and I think that’s probably a pretty good place to wrap up for today and you know again it’s been just an absolute honor to sit down and talk with you as we get feedback from this episode I we’ll come to Chicago and go to your museum and and we’ll do this again yeah let me say one thing I was not able to get in and anybody who knows me would tell me Jim why didn’t you say that I have a standard mantra okay and that is every day is a great day I have my faith my family and live in the finest country in the world I see it every day every chance I got and people ask me well why you know how can you be so positive and you know why do you say that I say well number one as a very young 24 year old company commander in Vietnam in combat there were times I didn’t know if I was going to be alive the next moment much less see the next sunrise when you’re in those circumstances what is important in life becomes real focused and that is faith family and living in the finest country in the world now so then people will come back at me and say well how can you say that when we have so much division in our country okay and I say listen I’m a little bit longer into thin you are and when I was a kid the I’ve seen the improvements in our society when it comes to race relations know I’m a minority so I get it and I told him the the odds of me becoming when I was a kid the odds of me becoming a Major General in the United States Army were slim and next to none okay when you know when we’ve had an african-american president who was reelected and then I tell people when President Kennedy was elected that was a big deal and and a lot of people don’t know why and I say because he was Catholic but today that’s that’s that’s not a big deal right and that that though in those days that was a big deal so I tell people every day is a great day I have my faith my family we live in the finest country in the world well that saying was challenged about five-and-a-half years ago when I had some health challenges which I think I didn’t mention it earlier today are you ever I was still working financial services industry and I got up in the morning or shaving and I felt this pain in my chest and I mean it wasn’t a serious pounding and I wasn’t sweating nausea I didn’t have a temperature so I thought of something I ate you know give it five minutes it’ll go away right it didn’t go away so I told my wife this is not good so I finished shaving and dressing though and she drove me to the emergency room of the hospital so I walk in and I say hey you know I’ve got this pain in my chest I don’t know what it is so they do an EKG and they said you have had a heart attack well suddenly all these doctors and nurses swooped in to the ER they undressed me and they put me in a hospital gown I’m on a gurney and I’m on my way to the operating room right so I’m in the corridor and on this gurney and I say to myself self can you say today is a great day and I said I absolutely can I survive Vietnam I have a wonderful wife and children and I most importantly have my faith so in 24 hours I had three operations the first operation was for the heart attack okay so they do an angiogram they found out my LD which is the Widowmaker artery was 90 percent block so they do an angioplasty put a stent in so by 10 o’clock in the morning I’m in the recovery room so I’m thinking well that’s that’s the end of it right that wasn’t the end of it the second thing that happened was my heart cavity started to fill up with liquid it’s called a fusion so I had to go back in for and they had to put a hole in my chest so they could put a tube there so they could drain this liquid and it filled up a bottle it took about 24 hours to do that okay the third thing that happened then was my kidneys failed so I had to go back in and they had to put another hole in my chest so they could hook up a date dialysis machine okay so the standard procedure every time I was rolled into the operating room is what’s your name what’s your birthday how do you feel okay so I’m on the operating table and I say Jim Oklahoma August 3rd 44 every day is a great day I have my faith my family and live in the finest country in the world I can’t tell you the effect that had on the doctors and nurses the first operation the doctor said what is your faith and I said well since you asked me doc I said I’m a Christian Christ is my Savior you’re skilled physician skilled nurses but I’m in God’s hands so whatever he decides I’m okay with so let’s get on with it so the second operation there was a nurse and she said where do you go to church and I said well I attend Willow Creek Community Church and she said I do too so no coincidence the third operation this was the coolest thing there was a male nurse who was wearing a camouflage gown and I said you must have been in the army Nick I said yeah I was a medic and I said well hey I just want you to know I retired as a two-star general so take good care of me will you and so that was kind of my my testing of all that now the final thing I tell you which was a god thing months later I was going I had to go through dialysis okay so I’m going through this dialysis and and three months later I get a donor and the donor was our daughter okay but our daughter is not our biological daughter we adopted her 30-something years ago and yet she was a match so guys when I say every day is a great day I have my faith my family and live in the kind of finest country in the world I can truly say that and every day every day is an encouragement to me okay today was an encouragement this morning when I was honored to participate in the National Day of Prayer with the 79th the theater Sustainment Command at Los Alamitos and this podcast is an encouragement to me so I just want you to know that and remember every day is a great day faith family we live in the finest country in the world well sir even though this is my podcast and I’m supposed to talk after that I don’t really have anything else to say thank you so much for coming on it’s been a complete honor to have you and I look forward to doing this again at some point in the future thank you so much and the general has left the building and we have actually relocated back to our recording studio and just amazing opportunity and definitely thanks to thanks to Jay Fukuyama for connecting us and send a little gift to you as well so thanks for thanks for putting this together with your dad and echo yes speaking of putting things together yes yeah if somebody wanted to put together something for themselves and maybe something that would you know support yeah yeah yeah could you brief us on those things namely your joints you want to keep those together mm-hmm cuz it’s a big deal if they’re not together so good news if you didn’t all right already even though you didn’t already chock my supplements they’re called Jaco super krill its krill oil but that’s not in the name technically also chuckle joint or fair also for your joints obviously take both um there’s some anti-inflammatory stuff in there too by the way something that I might have mentioned before anyway three joints very good very important subscribe for the the recurring delivery oh yeah cuz you don’t want to run out I’m telling you it’s jump when you’re right now I’ve run out before its whack also discipline supplement called discipline it is a pre-workout pre-mission pre-study pre take test pre cognitive enhancing supplements good this is a good one pree get after it and it tastes good interestingly enough jakka focused a lot on that tastes good lemon-lime etc etc many calories in this one I don’t know not very many 30 all right there you go so you can do it while you fast – technically depends on your metabolic response look and do it before you fast I can make any claims nonetheless it’s a good one for your brain for your body good supplement also yeah so mulk protein powder do you are you are we even calling it protein powder or we’re just calling it straight-up mole no it’s not it’s more within watts yeah so that is chocolate chip no mint chocolate chips yeah yeah so if you don’t like mint chocolate chip you might there’s a chance you might not like this if you do like mint chocolate chip there’s a real good cheese really like I would say around 100 percent probability you’re gonna like this one I should clarify that mmm I mix it primarily with milk me too I have mixed it also plain with well not playing but with cold water yeah it’s with milk it’s straight-up delicious yeah straight up it’s a milkshake you like oh I don’t what what do I truly in the world want to have for dessert I want to have more right with water it’s more like a ham sandwich sir you know okay hey this thing is good I you know I need some fuel you don’t you don’t get all fired up when you have a ham sandwich right yeah you know you know you’re not reaching the next level yeah you’re happy you’re not fired up yeah yeah that’s kind of what milk with water is like a ham sandwich it’s better for you but yeah taste taste reaction is about the same for me ham sandwich yeah yeah the small with with milk so it’s it’s legit what is it like a what like a state states vaguely yeah comparative hang that’s all fired a few boom chuckles review on law well no actually no it’s not it’s like am in shock milkshake that’s what it’s like yeah because the steak is a different thing for me yeah steak is a little bit of a different experience that’s a really good experience so technically you can’t a guy can’t replace take no no but if you the last fast I did you know and I posted that picture and I wouldn’t got that I wouldn’t got a killer steak yeah any I nothing was so good cuz he did after the fact so good yes we got a hundred percent of the taste 100% of the taste yeah no more than other percent the country Tempe yeah somebody sent me some tomahawk steaks yeah to my house mm-hmm and they came with instructions from the company that sent him on how to cook him and I’ll I don’t remember the name of the company right now I followed those instructions I cooked those steaks those things were epic yeah they were epic yeah so interesting yeah no steaks came to my house or anything like that or next to mine but hey they do some good and they some even better after cuz currently we’re getting our fast on yes currently officially – yeah yeah what do we already know um well I you I’m at 23 hours or something and I think I’m at like 18 right now what’s good you eat at 11 o’clock last night yeah you got issues why because like I don’t really start eating till like later in the day breakfast like that you see them though let’s say eat three meals a day and that’s not a lot but uh yeah that’s actually a little bit you know some kinds do you know that could not like that guy three times a day sometimes – so let’s say I ate my first meal no breakfast only water maybe some coffee sometimes maybe some Gatorade something maybe like a banana sometimes not a lot nonetheless at noon ish one maybe to lunch dinner ate like six boom and then again at 11:00 that’s more that’s not that much yeah okay do you want to do over there nonetheless I’m at about 18 hours you give or take and that’s take day you’re just talking about the Tom Ocwen sounds real yeah but ya better come real fired up because I think right now real fired up by the way you didn’t even mention where you can get all this good stuff well there’s even more good stuff so I what I what I’d like to do is like get us really excited about everything and then it’s like dang where can you get it oh I do want to say we have in the testing phase right now chocolate peanut butter Molk Molk now everyone’s probably wondering hey what’s up what’s up with just chocolate malt yeah we for whatever reason I don’t know if it’s the complementary of flavors but we haven’t been able to nail the chocolate flavor the way we want it at this time yeah yeah the the mint I don’t know you know the mint is awesome yeah the chocolate peanut butter epic yeah we haven’t nailed the chocolate yet we got vanilla the vanilla’s I’m not a vanilla fan yeah but the vanilla is good I can’t I can’t give it 9 stars because I I can’t give 9 stars to things that I don’t personally really love the taste of because I don’t love vanilla I’ll try it again once it once we roll out with the actual live vanilla milk but the chocolate milk will come when we get it right but the peanut butter milk stand by to get south yeah isn’t that the whole kind of defining factor of the vanilla flavor it’s like it’s not supposed to be amazing it’s supposed to be vanilla like people use the word vanilla no this guy let me do a great thing let me tell you I actually let me tell you when when when I do absolutely love vanilla flavor you know when you go to a restaurant and you’re like alright tonight we’re gonna get some and use an order dessert and you get some kind of a chocolate scenario lately let’s say let’s just let’s just talk about a chocolate that’s hot chocolate brownie right yeah you roll up one of those so there’s a my my local one of my local restaurants they have a dessert mm-hmm they call it the E legal mmm because it’s so good it should be illegal yeah this is Ragland sure Ragueneau be and what it is they take a cast iron skillett you know and they put chocolate chip cookie in there and then and I when they make it for us we don’t we get it once every two months we’ll go illegal time and that was an extra ice cream because you need it because it’s got that chocolate it’s hot they are so good and you know what I just realized we’re on the 24-hour fasting kind of longer kind of don’t mind it and you’re right about that vanilla thing too by the way because people do well people do use the word vanilla and vanilla to describe room you love the Royal just yes just vanilla which is you know it’s not great but it’s not junk its cast iron skillet you’re 100% right that’s especially when you said when you go to restaurants I probably know where you learned this and you’re absolutely right so that being said so what do you do then you put some chocolate like Hershey syrup in the vanilla milk that’s a violation oh no there’d be a big fight that just sounds real good right now I’m just the legal it should be illegal for us to do see I’ve been on I’ve been fasting before and down the podcast but this is different when I know that you’re yeah the same boat and this is kind of like uh usually I’m just cruising at home like I’ve done it before for sure my name is Kru there’s home and it’s like boom yeah but now like yeah once you get to talking about it shoot then and I got a drive by windy either way you get all this stuff vanilla monk not right now uh chocolate peanut butter I’m open all right now chocolate mint yes mint chocolate right now right now we’re going origin main dot-com that’s where you get it boom and all the other super krill that that is like everyday stuff you could take that one everyday get on the subscription thing but these you know all this other stuff after all of it like I said all of it or Jemaine calm also at origin main I’ll tell you what there’s on there is G’s produ Jitsu very important when you start jiu-jitsu or if you already started you just you need Agee people still ask good and I’m glad they do because I not the answer form what ye do I I started used to what he do I get sometimes I ask the color and that’s a whole different question but they say what brand of key here’s the brand origin brand 100% made in America best these are the keys that like Pete and all that one they make them they take into consideration all the movements of jiu-jitsu like everything even down to this and think about we might not even have thought about it like outside of when you put this on okay so in a regular key they have the string to tie on the pants not the belt the string on the pants then you have a belt that goes over the the D top all that stuff no that’s string fine we’re used to it and fine that’s a cool string but you ever like put in the dryer where it got caught on something or whatever and that string gets lost in the little tooth I don’t even see it I’m saying right yeah good project hoodie that’ll happen to your hoodie and you gotta get the hanger and you got to do this big thing if you even know how otherwise I kind of screwed in a way cuz you got to go all up in there now take the origin gay these are just these details that when you get someone who’s thinking of this kind of stuff when they design the whole gay you got some key there that this is one of the many reasons why you get the origin key this one the string comes out that’s okay because it’s not this this endless black hole loop holder don’t you Simms in yeah it’s like it’ll have like it’s a giant thick wide belt loops yeah and a bunch of you too so you have like you know it’s it’s so easy to put them in that’s even if you even want the string if you don’t the string you’re like hey I’m over strings I don’t like tying my string they give you this little bell you’ll see if you have origin get you’re like you’re exactly exactly for walk yeah yeah it’s a teeny it’s a thin belt that goes through and click you click the belt make it tight or whatever it’s like a little mini bill you don’t you don’t feel it when you’re rolling nothing like that did you think you’re gonna feel it when you rolled it was a question there was a question of you I found I’m you know this seems kind of weird yeah and then you put it on you don’t you don’t notice it all no no it’s until it comes time to take it off on it so easy yeah boom again it’s like we probably never really thought of this until you actually do it like I can when you’re when you’re done Danny you don’t really think about it but it’s just one of those things and more sicknesses these are good yeah he’s one of the many details yeah included I was talking to a guy yesterday I was getting interviewed and I said yeah well you know I he’s asked me about all my different businesses right whatever that means all of you yeah yeah and I said well you know I have a apparel company and we make we make apparel up in Maine got a big factory up in Maine he says oh Maine that’s up in Maine a factory in Maine and you know I was like yeah and he was all surprised and I said you know what it’s sad that you’re surprised at that because 50 years ago everybody knew that that’s where they made stuff they made it up there and it all disappeared and now it’s coming back and we’re bringing it back I told this guy I said we’re bringing it back we’re bringing back manufacturer we got we’re weaving material up there you don’t know what you don’t even know what I’m talking about people’s first instinct it’s like oh if you want material you got to go to overseas and you got to have you got to get it get it made in some sweatshop somewhere that’s that’s that’s accepted right that’s accepted like oh you just you know hey you can’t beat those prices and you can’t you can’t overcome the the tariffs and whatever else no you know what yes you can yeah yes you can’t and we are we’re doing it yeah you get the cotton in like North Carolina you’re screwheads his own South Carolina I’m screwing it up to get in America one of the current know that yeah in America the thing is that just talk to Peter I’m pretty sure he said North could’ve been so I don’t know mm-hm I forget apologize nonetheless it is in America just like you said and then they bring it up and here’s what it is – the secret they have their looms they have their own looms you can’t just walk into a store and start buying looms you just can’t do that that’s why it’s hard to you know to kind of that’s why they have a unique situation there it’s all made in America everyone that is supporting us at origin thank you because right now you know what we’re doing we’re expanding we’re buying more machines we’re buying better equipment and we’re hiring more people so thank you for your support it’s awesome we’re only able to bring manufacturing back to America because of you knowing that you want to have the best and you want to made America so thanks everyone yeah you fucking that much appreciate it yeah that’s the one origin main dot-com a lot of cool stuff on there some hoodies not to mention the most comfortable pants in the world officially now officially I’m wearing right now we go to LA today good fine you know whatever but you’re gonna want to wear something comfortable this is my thought process before we went nowhere the most comfortable thing that I own straight up no question me origin pants boom anyway also like I said keys rash guards compression gear and whatnot anyway just go there or gin mancom get what you want also the immersion camps jujitsu camp jujitsu immersion camp not concentration camp not not necessarily summer camp not band camp not band camp no it’s like it’s emerging can immerse yourself in jujitsu you train as much or as little as you want but you get to be in jiu-jitsu the whole time boom one week two sessions you can do both if you want by the way Chuck will be there I will be there but maybe not at full capacity the jury’s still out it now we’re gonna see about some stuff long story Dave Burke Lafe looks like make sure you go JP working it anyway a lot of fun people will be there it’s gonna be a good good time um if last year is any indicator Samir real good time also if you want to vary up your workout you want to get some kettlebells like some someone just texted me today well you know DM what wait kettlebells should I use okay here’s the thing that’s a broad question that’s a real bit so who are you exactly right yeah it’s no actually it’s an easy answer I didn’t order the 48 kilogram ones yeah potentially kill yourself or some smashing in your toe cuz you can’t hold it or it’s too light for you I don’t know it just depends so depends on how much you know about using kettlebells depends on how strong you are depends on how big you are and it depends on what kind of yeah well it does know it depends on what kind of fitness you’re trying to achieve yeah yes trying to get big and strong you want to get a bigger crowd about yeah if you’re trying to get more metcon conditioning and whatnot then you get maybe a smaller credible yeah the last point is hey it depends depends but here’s the thing I will say this and say this with complete bias because I’m on it kettle puff on it those are the kettle bells you get regardless of what size you get the artsy primal bell ones that’s in this one you get they’re just way cooler also if you want to vary up we work out like I said no boring workouts chocolate doesn’t have boring workouts apparently I thought he did he doesn’t I know but you want to make your workouts interesting different movements functional strength and actual strength there’s other stuff on there starting with like it’s a spectrum it goes from jump ropes all the way up to but mate steel bells what’s a steel bell they look like a frisbee right but there’s filled with metal but what do you do with them see there that’s the point so there’s a bunch of stuff on there anyway a lot of good stuff Letta what did I just get there pretty cool all the socks boom on it socks on it’s off straight up yeah there’s a lot of lot of cool stuff on there on there a lot of good information on there too so a lot of the questions that are directed at me I don’t know the answer I sometimes I know the answer for me as a buys me some stuff I heard but it’s real flimsy a lot of time you’re gonna hunted a lot of information on there so get some as they say on it calm slash chuckles good way to support if you want something get something also when you get these books that chocolate reviews sometimes hack Earth’s books about face good one steel my soldiers hearts good on any of the books feel the need to get one hate to wear it organize all the books by episode choco podcast comical choco podcast calm click on the top books from episodes boom I gotta organize perfectly click through there get your book get whatever book you wanna get two books gonna leave lurk just continue should just go just do your amazon thing and you’re all good good way to support also subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already on itunes stitcher google play podcast pod bean pod this podcast apps out there just subscribe to the podcast what I’m saying that’s kind of the thing regards to what podcasts application you’re using it’s good way to support the review if you’re in the mood just leave a review you know when you kind of think about if you’re not in the mood to leave a review I don’t even know if it’s conducive to leave a review or interesting I don’t know I said go for it yes you go for a bt f PG a– right i say if you in the mood lee review you also we have youtube channel if you didn’t know already to subscribe to that and that’s a good way to support as well we have excerpts on there try to post every day try to sometimes two a day try to also on there is enhanced excerpts I know what you mean by you mean you put some cinematography into the scenario you film and then you edit with music and other special effects CGI and what not sure well at the very least I’ll put some music on there you know things are exploding you redid the warpath video so there’s no longer horrible Christmas horrible see I put Christmas music on that cuz it’s Christmas time yeah you want to get Christmas spirit watch the watch the Christmas 1914 video that’s a good one as well and that’s better Christmas spirit is real to Christmas yeah nonetheless that’s why I did it but look you make a good point it was in our favorites never put Christmas music in one of my what do they call excerpts oh now that yours okay I’m in it alright don’t put Christmas music in our excerpts right you got it I promise otherwise a year exer actually alright hey I dig it and you know so it’s not gonna be Christmas every day a wise man once said it’s not Christmas every day so why put Christmas music on something that someone might may or may not listen to every day so I understand so yeah or you did you know revamp some stuff sometimes fYI my wife completely stuck up for you on that one yeah cuz yeah it’s nice Christmas music it was really that Christmas time okay I just wanted to like hiding yeah he’s kind of a bummer too because that was a really I know you put a lot of time and effort into that video took a little and so that so that when you showed it to me you were all excited and and the video CGI stuff is awesome right but hmm I know that you wanted me to be just you know yeah over the top with filled with awe at the video and I was with the visuals but I was that was a lot of that was countered by Christmas songs and so what you saw from my reaction was actually fake was fairly fake there is a fair amount of realness and I remember it now I won’t forget it cuz you’re in cuz you know you go a little bit inside where you all kind of like form it where it does like a certain thing and then it’ll drop off and they don’t come back whatever so there’s this part where a certain part start set up my call he’s gonna he’s gonna kind of like that part right so I’m kind of so I kind of look over at you know super childish but I’m like looking at you whatever and you’re like looking at it and then like one that part he and it’s Christmassy music you’re like so rough we change the Christmas music as a result it’ll boom anyway I guess hit video of all time yeah sure anyway yeah so yeah enhance excerpts essence on there along with of course the video version of this podcast if you care the chocolate looks like also choco is the store it’s called Yakko store URL is chocolate store calm so website obviously I know but still cool stuff on there and stuff is creative I think so go on their shirts hats we even got a new hat it’s like a flex fit now boom a lot of people been asking for that delivered gladly delivered anyway who he’s on there like I said rash guards women’s stuff some new mugs you know what I think I’m put the tea on there so if you know if they want to have that option to get Jocko tea and international you know oh yeah I think you know just more options we’re convenient for the people you’d call for everybody I think nonetheless a lot of stuff on there uh if you want something just get something also psychological warfare if you don’t know what that is it’s an album with tracks choco tracks I know that sounds like okay it’s kind of esoteric chocolate tracks what does that mean here this is what it means it means it’s not him seeing nothing like that so in your mom in your in your campaign against weakness and we’re all on the path straight it’s it’s like common knowledge really all of us were on the path like if you’re if we’re listening to this even me talking to you listen to me we’re on the path all of us one great now this is inevitable I think for the most part inevitable we’re you know hit moments of weakness sometimes you need a little help through those moments of weakness sometimes you need to just slip in those moments of weakness and fall and be like I’m not doing that again sometimes that’s useful you learn in my opinion but in those moments of weakness where you just need a little spot this is what chocolate tracks are for so let’s say your weakness is not getting up early you want to hit the snooze so what you want to do to tired I don’t know whatever maybe drink a little bit I don’t know so you’re on the fence you’re like I’m gonna hit the snooze just for what was what’s at normal snooze ten minutes nine minutes or whatever I don’t know seem sane do you have to tell me about that actually it’s not for the snooze technically it’s not for hitting the snooze it’s for going back to bed that’s the weakness that this particular track because hitting the snooze like if you just want to hit the snooze you’re not gonna have the energy to get up and you know boom maybe if you put as your alarm nonetheless is what it is the track it it’s jock on a specific track telling you why you should just get up and not hit the snooze or not stay in bed but it’s like jockle pragmatic advice it’s good 100% and this goes for uh diet stuffs keeping workout stuff 100 percent effectiveness 100% that’s good speaking of a hundred percent if you 100 percent 100% guaranteed want to be able to deadlift 8000 pounds minimum you might go over that all you have to do is drink chocolate white tea it’s that simple bro okay dude am I gonna get sued for false advertising no because and here’s why so this gate Josiah this is named huge guy towards bicep by the way few weeks ago maybe a few months ago it’s been probably a few months unless big guy dead list you know has the set up right and and he’ll he’ll have videos there I watch him just understand all we can and so he turns his bicep you know it happens and so he there’s the video actually I think this video was before you took tour the bicep mm-hmm no no it was after so he has his arm in a sling right bicep tear so he drinks some chocolate white tea with the ten pounds it and he smashes this in an actual video smashes didn’t throws of the ten deadlifts one bad arm one hand and it’s like more than I can deadlift for real in real life one hand deadlift floor so boom proof proof simply a video Josiah yeah there it is you can get that on Amazon soon very soon well I shouldn’t say very soon within a few weeks you’re gonna be able to get ready-made jockle white tea in a can we’re gonna put some companies out of business yeah cuz you’re gonna be at 7-eleven going oh you know what oh maybe I’ll have this sugar filled thing over here and will make me feel like like a like high on a sugar high for about fifteen minutes and I want to I don’t want to fall asleep and be lame and I’ll be getting diabetes or I can have chocolate cheese just cause that’s coming that’s coming I’ll let you all know and that’s out hey books way the war your kid series shows the path of hard work and discipline to kids book to is out now it’s called marks mission teach your kids to be stronger faster smarter more confident teach them to have better perspective on other people how to handle verbal and physical bullying yeah teaching view warrior kids and speaking of more your kids if you want to support a warrior kid go to Irish Oaks ranch calm and get some or your kids soap made by Aiden who’s 13 years old owns his own business chocolate so yeah he makes chakra soap it’s good to use if you want to stay clean don’t forget about the discipline equals freedom Field Manual and you know what this is this is good read read just read one section add a legit read one section a day that will legitimately keep you on the path try it you’re right yeah if you want to listen to one track a day instead of read it because maybe do it in the car or whatever it’s not on audible it’s on mp3 the discipline calls freedom field manual iTunes Amazon music google play whatever you can listen to mp3s of course there’s the leadership book extreme ownership combat leadership and how to apply to your business in life over a million copies of that have sold that’s a lot and it’s not because we did about big advertising campaign it’s not because we took out an advertisement in the Super Bowl series no it’s because of word-of-mouth that’s why people read it cuz it works so get that for your business in life and actually if you want to now order the follow-on book to extreme ownership it’s called the dichotomy of leadership life and I just finished writing it this book will it’s really gonna help leaders I can’t wait to get it out there into people’s hands one of the hardest things to do as leaders is to find the balance between all the dichotomies of leadership and this will help you do that order it now otherwise the same things going to happen publishers won’t have a copy for you near being mad and I’ll be mad that’s the way it works if you need direct leadership support for your team contact national on front which is my leadership consulting company it’s me it slave Babin it’s JP do now Dave Burke our website is echelon front calm and we solve problems through leadership that’s what we do and of course there’s the muster leadership seminar by the way 0:05 in Washington DC sold out so if you want to come to muster you can’t come to that one you gotta wait until October 17th and 18th in San Francisco California that is the next muster and also at the muster we will not be backstage in the green room clearing our minds in an isolation float tank we will not be doing tonight we will be with you out there the whole time talking answering questions working out eating rolling jiu-jitsu everything come to the muster pragmatic leadership training for people that are leaders people that aspire to be leaders and also on top of that for current military law enforcement firefighters paramedics other first responders we have roll call 1 September 21st Dallas Texas it’s one day that’s about leadership in dynamic environments you can register to that one as well at extreme ownership comm and until we are together live at one of those events whether it’s the muster or it’s the roll call or it’s the immersion camp up in Maine if you want to communicate with us you can do that via the interwebs where we’re cruising big time I am Jacques I will link echo is at Echo Charles and also military outreach USA which is the organization that’s run by general Lu Yama if you want to follow that they are on twitter at at Mill outreach USA at Mill outreach USA they also have their Facebook page which is military outreach USA and if you didn’t catch the website the first time around military outreach usa org great organization led by a great man General James Mookie Yama and again we thank him for his service sacrifice than what he has done for our great nation and what he continues to do and I thank him for coming on the podcast to share his lessons learned and also thanks to his son Jay for connecting us truly appreciate it it was an amazing experience for me to talk through lessons learned that he learned from one of my mentors and one of my heroes colonel david hackworth so thank you both and thanks to all the men and women in uniform out there doing your duty holding the line protecting our flag and our freedom and to the police and law enforcement firefighters paramedics and all the other first responders that protect us day and night while we’re here at home thank you for your vigilance and to everyone else that is listening the factory factory workers and drywall hangers and bankers and brokers and waiters and waitresses and cooks and dishwashers to business owners and investors and software designers and CEOs and salespeople to everyone out there doing your best to do your best think about those hardcore condos that fought and think about those hardcore condos that didn’t come home remember them and for them don’t let up don’t slow down don’t allow any slack and keep getting after it so until next time this is echo and Jocko