this is jaco podcast number 81 with echo Charles and me Jaco Wellington good evening echo good evening November 29 1915 it has teamed the trenches are ankle-deep some places calf deep in mud and the communications trenches are rushing streams of brown water the manner wet through but to stick the job like Britons and I hope for their sake that the weather lifts with the morning the guns have been strafing today though up till now we have dodged the show it may be ours again tomorrow though one never knows this is from the diary of Captain Charlie may the British Army officer commander of B Company 22nd manchester pals battalion of the manchester regiment who served in world war one he was married to Bessie Mae then they had one daughter who was born July 20th 1914 so she was a little over a year old when this journal was being written from the trenches then it continues December 1st 1915 it is exciting work sniping in fact one must curb the tendency lest it should become a fascination the second in command of the Elance the East Lanchester regimen and myself put in a couple hours this morning and had quite a bit of fun worrying the Boches in their trenches one fellow was walking across the open 2 000 yards off when I spotted him and let go you never saw a chap move quicker in your life he ran for a tree and jumped behind it and I let him have four more there whether I got him or not I don’t know but he didn’t move for the next half hour I know because I waited so anxiously for him last night or rather 1:30 this morning I got outside the barbed wire and got lost three times I had to fling myself down in the wet grass bury my nose in it and grovel while the machine guns went chattering over me it is remarkable with what speed one learns to adopt the prone position January 13th 1916 I long and long to see you to clasp you in my arms and I long with all my heart to see my baby how I love her what hopes I have for her what a sweet girl she will make February 25th 1916 woke up this morning to find the snow pelting down and covering the ground fully five inches deep also it was freezing hard cotton a fellow officer came in to breakfast with us he brought the little Bible which another soldier had taken from the body of a dead German on the Flyleaf in a child’s handwriting the word dad at war is very sad perhaps the man may have done and been something too loathes and detests I do not know all I am conscious of is that somewhere in his fatherland there is a little child who called him daddy April 6 1916 Fritz strafed our new trenches with heavies and search round the support with HG shrapnel and other such obnoxious stuff one shell claimed three NCOs and wounded three men we all feel wild to get at the beasts and I hope we may string him up on the wire I saw the killed go down the line it was a pitiful sight poor boys shell fire is a horrid thing breasty a lad who is a sergeant of mine was the worse his body full of gaping holes it was very very sad do those at home realize how their boys go out for them never can they do enough for their soldiers never can they repay the debt they owe not that the men ask any reward but one day we’ll get Adam with the bayonet we’ll take our price then for gret Z and all the other hundreds thousands gret Z slain as they were standing at their posts June 17th 1916 I do not want to die the thought that I may never see you or our darling baby again turns my bowels to water my conscience is clear that I have always tried to make life a joy for you but it is the thought that our babe may grow up without my knowing her and without her knowing me I pray God I may do my duty for I know whatever that may entail you would not have it otherwise June 23rd 1916 everything is speeding up to no end ammunition by the hundred wagon load is pouring up it should certainly not be for lack of ammunition if we do not make a huge success of the venture yet one cannot help feeling a little anxious and worried so much depends on this great throw and what he’s talking about there in this part of the journal it reflects the build-up for the Battle of the Somme and although Charlie doesn’t know exactly when the battle is going to commence they’re obviously only distributing that information with people that have the need to know they know that a major attack is forthcoming and that’s why they’ve got all that ammunition piled up more than they could ever think they could possibly need back to the journal June 28 1916 the moment seems very auspicious for us to strike perhaps we will on Friday July 1st 1916 we marched up to the assembly trench last night the most exciting March imaginable guns all around crashed and roared till sometimes it was quite impossible to hear oneself speak it was however a fine sight and one realized from it what gun power really means fritz of course strafed back and reply causing us some uneasiness and a few casualties before we even reached the line the night passed noisily and with a few more casualties the Hun puts a barrage on us every now and then and generally claims one or two victims it is a glorious morning we go over in two hours time it seems a long time to wait and I think whatever happens we shall all feel relieved once the line is launched no man’s land is a tangled desert unless one could see it one cannot imagine what a terrible state of disorder it is in but we do not yet seem to have stopped the machine guns these are popping off all along our parapet as I write I trust they will not claim to many of our lads before the day is over now I close this old diary down for the next few days since I may not take it in to the line I will keep a record of how things go and enter it up later well that update never took place then Charlie may was wrong about how many British soldiers would be claimed before the day was over he didn’t think it would claim too many but as you know the first day of the battle was on July 1st turned out to be the worst day in history for the British Army and they suffered almost 60 000 casualties 60 000 casualties in one day and like I said those casualties included Charlie May who went over the top on July 1st under the cover of Allied artillery he was leading B Company and he and his men fought their way across no-man’s land and just as they reached German lines Charlie was a hit by shellfire then killed and his diary was found by the man that eventually dragged him back to the trenches private arthur bunting who mailed the diary to Charlie’s wife Maude now the British have a steep military history and obviously this is the kingdom that we Americans rebelled against in the Revolutionary War and we fought them again in the war of 1812 and we actually had a bunch of other little various disputes with them until the late 1800s when during something called the great reproach ‘men through various forces in the world our political objectives were aligned and we became the staunchest of allies with Great Britain through World War one and World War two and Korea and Vietnam and even up till now in Iraq and Afghanistan and I’ve been lucky enough to work alongside Brits on just a couple occasions while I was in the military and there’s no doubt that they are just outstanding troops professional in everything that they do and they leave that impression on you you can actually feel the pride of their military tradition and tonight wanted to take a look at a book that is part of that military tradition and the book is called serve to lead and I’m going to start with some statements from the introduction to this version of the book and the version of the book that I’m reading is the old version I think it’s from 1954 57 originally written right after World War 2 and these comments here are from a guy named Robin Matthews a former British Army officer graduate of the Royal Military Academy of Sandhurst that’s like the British West Point he went on to command his regiment the light dragoons which included a tour of duty in Iraq in 2005 he also served with 16 Air Assault Brigade in Helmand province in Afghanistan and here’s what he has to say about this book served to lead is a remarkable book produced by the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst after the Second World War it is as clear and concise the treatise on leadership as you will find it also provides a fascinating glimpse into what sets the profession of arms apart from any other served to lead is synonymous with Sandhurst placed on the bed of every officer cadet at the beginning of the military training somewhere between prayer-book which is what I thought it was initially and Bible as it has often been referred it lays out what is expected and what to expect unequivocally it establishes selflessness self disciplined integrity and duty as the bedrock of leadership excitingly it speaks of courage and boldness as the essential differentiators upon which events turn and to which soldiers and leaders are instinctively drawn there is so much to enjoy and consider on every page but the most beguiling message of the book concerns humility leadership must confident but unless it is matched in equal measure by humility it jars at which point the lead simply fall away if I am to lead you first and foremost I must be your servant like any good book the clue is in the title in this case simple seemingly contradictory but ultimately profound serve to lead and that’s the intro to this book and obviously there’s a dichotomy of leadership he’s already talking about things that we talk about all the time and yes you’ve got to be confident but you’ve got to be humble and the title the book is a contradictory is a dichotomy in its own sense right serve to lead and like I said this book they actually have a new one and I have the new one I went with the old one and the reason I wanted the old one there’s a couple things that we’re going to prom to point out that clearly they’ve changed their faults on and maybe we’ll end up doing a compare and contrast with the new one there aren’t that many differences but there certainly are some very significant different differences and we’ll get to those and this is going to kick off with a piece from the Lord Bishop of Durham it is the fact that some men possess an inbred superiority which gives them a dominating influence over their contemporaries and marks them out unmistakeably for leadership this phenomenon is as certain as it is mysterious it is apparent in every Association of human beings in every variety of circumstances and on every plane of culture in a school among boys in a College among the students in a factory shipyard or mine among the workmen as certainly as in the church and in the nation there are those who with an assured and unquestioned title take the leading place and shape the general conduct so there’s an opinion people ask all the time are leaders born or made that one right there is leaders are born and that’s I I always say both I always say there’s there’s certain leadership qualities that people are born with and some people are born with a lot of them some people are vulnerable all of those qualities some people are born with a lot less some people aren’t born of any they’re not going to be much of a leader it doesn’t matter how much you train them you can get them better but they’re not going to be a great leader and obviously some some leaders don’t need much training there’s very few of those leaders that just don’t they just get it out of the gate as just born that way I think it’s a mixture of both and I think you’re born with some leadership capability and the more you hone it the more you work on it the better you’re going to be why would you think or why do you think that is because to be a leader like the good strong qualities that you gotta have are so contradict or counterintuitive they’re not even counterintuitive but you can get better at all of them you know a couple the one that’s for instance some people are naturally talented or some people are naturally articulate people so they’re able to get their message across in simple clear concise language that’s it very important now if you’re born with that you’re lucky right good job you were born with that you were born an articulate person if you weren’t guess what you can have to work at it you have to read you have to write you have to listen you have to practice speaking to people and you will get better at it so those that’s your example some people just have it naturally and but even people that have it naturally will get better at it over time I was always pretty comfortable speaking to people but obviously when I was in the military I spoke to people all the time and when I was in a training training situation as a young enlisted seal I was put up in front of classroom to speak to people and I got better at it and then when I became an officer and a leader now I was briefing people and so I’m doing it even more and then I took over the training for the West Coast seals and now I was briefing people all the time and when I was overseas I was briefing you know Colonels and Generals and okay you’re gonna brief a bunch of times you’re going to get better at it I was already ok at it naturally but I got better at it and I’m still getting better at it today so that’s the same with any of these particular talents you know being able to simplify things being able to detach those are all important leadership qualities you can have a certain level that you’re capable at but the more you practice them the better off you’re gonna be yeah yes so it’s a combination yeah so how you say like Ola there’s it’s pretty rare that you get somebody who’s um has all the qualities right out of the gate yeah nothing I can’t I’ve never met anybody that just just dominated and right a Greek uh lady like detaching for example that’s not that’s kind of counter to your natural wave yeah that’s true most people are going to want to get in there yeah now I I just thought this example I’ve talked about him a little bit on the on the podcast where we had to embarrass on ultimately grizzard he was uh he was the use my system platoon commander when I was at SEAL team one and he got murdered it was horrible tragic situation he was involved in a murder suicide and but he had a lot of those capabilities he had a lot of he was a very articulate he was a quarterback at the Navy football team we had like a real good presence to him he spoke clearly he was down to earth and yet you know very he could elevate himself very quickly when he’s talking to the cert you know if he needed to elevate himself he just had a lot of those qualities very naturally and and guess what he was at the Naval Academy he played football he was constantly getting in front of his you know getting in the huddle and telling guys what was gonna happen and you get good at that over time and part of that is so I don’t know how much of it you know I didn’t know when he was a football player when he was in eighth grade maybe he was stammering and trying to put his thoughts together but then he trained it over and over and over again he got better at it and maybe by the time he got to me as a 23 year old lieutenant j g he was like oh we gonna get in a huddle I’ll tell you guys what’s going on and so you know even though it appeared to me like it was natural probably wasn’t it was probably trained you know he had some natural capability but he played football his whole life and that was that yes so in a way you can kind of in this maybe kinda interchangeable as far as the expression but you know you say natural capability it could be that they gain it through learning or whatever just through their environment you know like as a kid you know yeah yeah so playing football and then they’ll bring it to the training situation and they like so yeah but I think it’s got to be a little bit of both right yeah yeah and you will get better at it but the more you focus on that particular skill like some people are very comfortable talking in you know even they’re not even comfortable talking in a conversation right oh yeah and so if you end up with a kid like that well you got to get them out with socialize them and get him in get him in front of people talking all the time and that will be good for them yeah if you have someone that’s if you’ve got a kid or yeah if you got a kid or a young leader that doesn’t know when to shut up right how are you gonna because sometimes leaders are like that too they want to hear themselves talk and they just keep talking all the time and guess what the more you talk the less people listen so if I’m giving orders on every little thing that we’ve gotten to do in front of us eventually you’re not listening to me anymore and when something critical comes up you’re still not listening to me because I’ve been talking for the past six straight months won’t shut my piehole so that’s a bad situation so how do we get that person to quiet down it’s both yeah all right so now we’re going to hear from a guy named Field Marshal William slam I think bill slam is what they ended up calling him he was in World War one and World War two wounded multiple times I think three times led the 14th army in Burma World War two and he also fought with the Anzac so the the Australian New Zealand Army Corps at Gallipoli so you could say he’s got a pretty good view of things sure so he this believe it or not the first this this book kicks off with talking about morale and the morale of the troops so here we go back to the book morale was a state of mind it is that intangible force which will move a whole group of men to give their last ounce to achieve some without counting the cost to themselves that makes them feel that they are part of something greater than themselves now this is interesting so so he’s talking about the importance of morale now going back to the subject we were just talking about back to the book I learned to that one did not need to be an orator to be effective two things only were necessary first to know what you were talking about and second and most important to believe it yourself so there you go you don’t need to be great orator but you’ve got to know what you’re talking about and you got to believe it yeah those are two really good places to start he continues on talking about morality he says a most potent factor in spreading this belief in the efficiency of an organization is a sense of discipline we tried to make our discipline intelligent but we were old-fashioned army and we insisted on outward signs we expected soldiers to salute and officers to salute in return both in mutual confidence and respect I encouraged all officers to insist whenever possible and there were a few places where it was not possible on good turnout and personal cleanliness it takes courage especially for a young officer to check a man met on the road for not properly saluting or for slovenly appearance but every time he does it adds to his stock of moral courage and whatever the soldier may say he has respect for the officer who does pull him up now this is an interesting point right because what we’re talking about here is all I see echoes you know not wearing his uniform correctly so I’m going to go over and tighten you up that is you can see where you can see where people are probably thinking yeah jock will be all over that guy right no actually wrong that’s actually wrong and what I want to talk about here is I’m gonna talk about what I call the leadership capital you only have some leadership capital in your bank and you’ve got to decide what as a leader you’re going to spend that capital on and if I see you out of uniform or you’re looking sloppy I’ve got to decide if it’s worth me investing my leadership capital and going over and telling you that you need to tighten it up hey echo you get that hey sergeant Charles you need to get your uniform squared away you look like crap you’re setting a bad example is that what I want to invest my leadership capital on now Kennedy sometimes yes absolutely and we’ve talked about the many cases where that occurs you know when you look at at Hackworth when hack boards showed up to vietnam as a battalion commander he tightened up their uniform standards immediately mmm he tightened him up immediately he knew he needed to invest that leadership capital he needed to start with the small things but if you’re in a garrison situation and you see somebody that maybe isn’t doing there isn’t wearing their uniform properly and you decide you’re going to go tighten them up I’m not saying it’s the wrong answer and as lace Pavan will tell you it’s not what you preach is what you tolerate and so if you tolerate the guys looking like crap they’re just going to continue going down that hill of looking like crap now to me there’s a certain point right that I won’t let you go past if you’re a little out of the out of the standard maybe I’m going to let that one slide a little bit right but once you get to a point where you’re looking like crap well guess what I am absolutely going to tighten you up and I’m going to explain to you why it’s important look I’m not going to go and yell at you no not happening so you’ve got to be careful how you ration your your discipline and your leadership capital right if you just run around yelling at everyone or getting in everyone’s face for every little thing that they’re doing pretty soon you could look at that like well pretty soon they’ll let that they’ll be scared of making a mistake but that’s that’s the point now you got people that are scared to make a mistake yeah now you’re cutting off their abilities and their desire to think freely so the bottom line with this balance you’ve got to stay balanced in these things and don’t waste your leadership capitals talking to a guy the other day he was running a off site for his executive team and I talked to him and and he said man you know it was just junk I said what happened and he had showed up the executive off-site and he’s in the company and he’s the guy that’s running the off-site and he gets there and he says all right guys not while we’re here no cell phones so everyone put your cell phones away we need to focus it’s a strategic meeting we need to we need to get this done so the guys put their cell phones away and they start the meeting he says five minutes into the meeting the CEO breaks out a cell phone starts looking at it a minute after everyone sees that you got half the room looking at their cell phone so yeah and he went like got kind of nuts on him you know this is man what’s what’s going on and people aren’t even paying attention after the first at first hour he’s just you know what’s going on and I said to him I said bro let’s look at what you just so then he said then he lost them like the the meeting just went downhill yeah and I said to him let’s talk about what you did because you invested your leadership capital for this important meeting on telling people to not use their cell phones did you tell them why he’s like not really did you explain to them when they would be able to use their cell phones no I didn’t so you just wait now this company is a financial company they’ve got a lot of things going on you can imagine the CEO the big financial companies got a lot of important calls and emails to check and all that and all of a sudden gets told no cell phone what is that going to end mmm what important thing is happening at my company today where I’m not allowed to talk on my cell phone and answer emails or look at look at my emails and I’m the guy so so when am I supposed to when would I be able to look at you didn’t tell me that so he invested all of his leadership capital to get people to do no cell phones and he spent it and there wasn’t any left and and the you know so you have to be careful now you have to approach it the right way right first of all you could say hey listen guys we’re going to power through a solid hour right now I’m gonna ask you unless it’s just critical keep your cell phones put away and let’s power through this let’s get some good conversation going right and in an hour we’re going to take a 20-minute break where you can catch up when you got to catch up on and then we’ll do another hour after that so now people understand what’s happening and they understand why and by the way you know if everyone’s on their cell phones we’re not going to get what we need out of this meeting so you gotta explain and you don’t want to invest your leadership capital on things that don’t matter so if you’re the senior guy in a leadership position and you’re focused on some little person that’s out of uniform and that’s what your focus is that’s that’s not a good focus to have right you should set the standard and your subordinate leadership all the way down to the front where you’ve got like you and me are peers and I don’t let you I’m the one not I’m not waiting for the boss to come by and tighten up uniform I won’t let you tighten up I won’t let you wear a crappy looking uniform that’s what I want I want to have a gang mentality where we’re self policing because the minute on from the top doing that again does this happen sometimes yes I’m not setting out a black and white rule here I’m giving the broad guidance that if your Hackworth and you’re taking over a battalion where people’s lives are at risk sand you know that there’s slack everywhere and they’re not doing a good job you got to go in there and tighten them up and one of the best ways to do that is go in there and start on the small things but if you’ve got a functioning unit that there’s nothing critical happening and you’re trying to build that team into something that’s that’s a winning team and the first thing you could do is go in and focus on some of these small things when you haven’t really established yourself that could be problematic so think about those things when you’re in those positions all right going back to the book I do not say that the men of the fourteenth army welcome to difficulties but they grew to take fierce pride in overcoming them by determination and ingenuity from start to finish they had only two items of equipment that were never in short supply their brains and their courage they lived up to the unofficial motto I gave them god helps those who help themselves and once again that’s the same thing that Colonel Bill leader said god help yourselves alright now we’re going to move on to still still talking about morale we’re gonna talk to only hear from Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery if you don’t know who that is Monty World War one the anglo-irish war the Palestine conflicts that disbar uprisings and World War two he you know obviously ran the British Eighth Army for war – so we’ve once again we’ve got a person with some very solid perspective on leadership and combat leadership the quality of morale back to the book in war the moral stature of some men increases and their characters grow stronger and more closely knit in proportion to the discomforts and dangers they are called upon to face boom so some guys get better some guys rise to the occasion back to the book such men will occasionally perform in battle remarkable acts of selfless courage and daring and will endure with the extraordinary fortitude and patience the burdens thrust upon them other men however will under the stress of hardships or dangers surrender to fear or fatigue and allow their characters to disintegrate this disintegration will usually take the form of loosening of the moral fiber which results in timidity of action and flatness and appearance while those who have gone to seed will be dirty and their appearance will be sluggish and will be slovenly in the later cases there has been a general loosening of character due to partial surrender to fear so I totally agree with this you see in combat situations people either get better or they get worse some people just kind of cruise right stay in that same zone but but some people they get better they get worse they rise to the occasion or they fall back to look the good soldier the man with high morale has not surrendered to fear and has maintained his personal standards the bad soldier the man with low morale has become incapable of independent action and has to some extent shed a part of his human individuality that’s an interesting that’s an interesting statement that the person that’s incapable of innovate of independent action he said he shed some of his human individuality back to the book basic factors of morale we now must consider the factors Conte what what factors constitute morale of the soldier in the heat of battle certain factors may be described as essential conditions without which high morale cannot exist these four basic factors are one leadership to discipline three comradeship and four self-respect a fifth factor devotion to cause must exist but need not necessarily influence all the soldiers finally there are numerous contributory factors which are great importance but are not essential conditions starting with this first one leadership morale is in the first place based on leadership good morale is impossible without good leaders human beings are fundamentally alike in that certain common characteristics apply to all men in varying degrees in battle the most important of these characteristics is fear all men are afraid at one time or another to a greater or lesser extent in moments of fear they band together and look for guidance they seek for a person to give decisions they look for a leader the leaders power of decision results from his ability to remain calm in the crisis his greatest asset is the ability to act normally in abnormal conditions to continue to think rationally when his men have ceased to think to be decisive in action when they are paralyzed by fear a little bit of normal face from Monti act normally in abnormal conditions remain calm back to the book the object of training must be first to select those who possess them within them the potentialities of leadership and secondly to develop these potentialities this is accomplished by giving the leader responsibility the leaders character will develop in proportion to the responsibilities with which he has been entrusted so there you go he’s saying the same thing that we were talking about earlier you have certain potentials and you got to develop those and how do you develop them with people you give people you want to develop leaders you give them responsibilities you don’t give them responsibility that’s going to kill them but you give them responsibility that’s going to definitely test them and they’re going to have to step up to be able to perform back to the book the two vital attributes of a leader are a decision in action and B calmness in crisis given these two attributes a key will succeed without them he will fail our great problem in peace is to select leaders it’s to select as leaders men whose brain will remain clear when intensely frightened so from Monty you got to remain calm hmm now he’s going to talk about discipline the object of discipline is the conquest of fear there are two aspects of fear fear can suddenly attack a man through his imagination a corpse in a ditch or a grave by the far side of the road will remind him of his position he will suddenly realize that he himself is liable to be killed it is a function of discipline to fortify the mind so that it becomes reconciled to unpleasant sights and accepts them as normal everyday occurrences fear can also creep upon a man during periods of monotony on the line at such time he will have the opportunity to appreciate the dangers which beset his life fear acting through his thoughts can so reduce the man’s hard core of courage that he will become nervous and fearful discipline strengthens the minds that it becomes impervious to the corroding influence of fear it teaches men to confine their thought within certain definite limits it instills the habit of self-control that’s pretty amazing it’s pretty amazing assessment to think that the one of the best premiere tools to overcome fears discipline back to the book discipline implies a conception of duty nothing will be accomplished in the crisis by the man without a sense of duty makes sense now he’s going to talk about comradeship back to look morale can not be good unless men come to have affection for each other a fellow feeling must grow up which will result in a spirit of comradeship an army is made of human beings so that however much leader may inspire as men however perfect the discipline the morale will be hard and unsympathetic if the warmth of comradeship has not been added oh yeah you got to be got to be the hardcore disciplinarian but you need the warmth of comradeship back to the book war though a hard business is not necessarily a grim one men must laugh and joke together must enjoy each other’s company company and must get fun out of even life I must get fun out of life even in times of danger so do you want to have a good time yes you do and the the thing that makes these dangerous times more bearable is when you’re having fun during them and that’s one of the things I don’t talk a whole lot about the SEAL training in here on the podcast but one of the things that you do in SEAL training is you’re doing miserable things called wet tired and you’re having fun the whole time you’re learning that hey guess what I can sit here and be cold and it’s miserable or I can be cold and I can laugh about it and I can make fun of my friend the way he’s shivering and you know that’s what makes it bearable and the same thing happens when you get overseas and you joke about really dark things you know dark sense of humor that comes out real strong when you’re overseas I think yeah one of my one of my buddies who is super paranoid I’ve talked about him on here before the guys the guys found a tube that had shipped like maps or something and if you pulled the tube apart real fast it sounded like a mortar launch right so they’d get outside his tent and he was super paranoid we spent a little bit of time getting mortared and so he was a little on edge from that yeah so they’d go outside of his tent you know and you can hear through the tent it’s just a little piece of fabric and they go outside his tent and they pull that thing and it would sound like a mortar tube they did hear he freaked so what are the cross doing here or you know at first you hear him like fall and likes to hit the ground and then you’d hear the giggling of the guys outside and then you hear him Costin everyone out yeah but yeah but it was fun it was funny too far a little too far maybe but but everyone’s having a good time and even him you know we’d get done and he would become outside you guys are bastards and we’d laugh about it that’s the kind of thing where you’re you gotta have fun in these tough situations II yeah yeah that makes sense that’s probably why you know like nowadays like contemporary companies they in court like Jayde’s company Frank mob they got foosball yeah ping pong I heard I heard massive noises the other day Nelson kind of sounded like like a mortar fire nothing quite mortar fire but there was something I didn’t know what it was and they were they were in a in a nerf gun fire fire yeah yeah and by the way it was sloppy like they would develop takes me yeah there was no cover and move happening is just oh every man for himself I was that disappointed yeah but the third but they’re having like the reason right where it’s it I mean these are did I mean conceptually it’s the same thing obviously you know it’s way different no actually it’s way different but it’s not actually not all through tough things in a business in a company have fun with it and when I work with companies that are good good companies and they’re going through something tough the ones that have good morale the ones that are laughing they’re the ones that do better yes who wants to go to work yeah if you don’t enjoy the people yet with you know yeah like why would you want to do that you know one of the one of the I hate you can call it the worst job but I was the animals age right so every day I’m wearing a uniform I’m in sitting in a desk all day I did it for 13 months it was just that part of it it’s it’s you know even is just a miserable job right luckily first of all the Admiral is a great guy and I had a lot we know we joked around all the time with him and his executive assistant is a guy that I would literally not I would go two or three weeks at a time and we wouldn’t say one serious thing to each other everything would be some joke about every all the misery that we were going through and by misery I just mean you know hours worth of meetings and traveling all the time and his being on the road and staying in crappy hotels and flights getting you know bumped and canceled and being held over and the Admirals suitcase not showing up somewhere and he’s supposed to go on stage it doesn’t have a uniform with him and like that’s you know not fun guess what I had fun the whole time and we’d be joking about I’d say well I guess I’m going to get to take one again for the team which is laughing yeah so yeah even in these situations that aren’t fun have you got to have fun with them and that definitely will help out your round if you’re a leadership position and all you do is just bare you get get drown in the misery that you’re going through every single person that’s with you is going to be going through the same thing and so as a leader you got a vessel once again going back to the dichotomy of leadership you got a you got a no-win okay the guys are too much stress they’re not having fun I need to have fun I need to start a nerf war in the in the office here so guys loosen up and then there’s times where hey guys are having too much fun we got to type them up yeah yeah like hey guys we got this to do and so you got to ride that that line and balance it out correctly yeah yeah the cool huh um like newer companies that were companies nowadays they are incorporating that element into the the actual color you know yakking about yes you’re right and there’s companies nowadays that do it too much and all of a sudden I can’t get anything done yeah they’re missing area because everyone’s playing ping pong right everyone’s in the Lego room yeah they got rooms now is that go you go there and sink right he’ll play with Legos because that relaxes your mind I guess not me when I’m around Legos I think I want to step on them cuz I got kids throw Z up don’t let Legos is a nightmare so I don’t like being around Legos I got the PTSD from Lego stepping when I was at my kids were younger label you know cuz you can’t ever get your son enough Legos apparently correct because they just need everything and when I was a kid there was not that many different types of Legos you had blocks right long ones and shorter ones yeah nowadays you get Legos but they have hands and boards and machine guns and they got cool stuff but bain’t Legos anymore they’re little toys they’ll come with the little Legos and they still hurt the Box step on they are surprisingly sharp for kids made your choice you know yeah major sharp all right going back to the book is the other thing you talk about self respect no man can be said to possess high morale if the quality of self respect is lacking and this is something that dick winters talked about through that self respecting and how that drove him soldiers must be encouraged to respect themselves at all times and under all conditions self-respect implies a determination to maintain personal standards of behavior a man who respects himself will allow neither himself to become slovenly nor his quarters dirty even in action he will take care to see that his personal appearance suffers as little as possible it is the job of the noncommissioned officer to maintain this aspect of discipline it is the function of the officer to encourage and dis instill self-respect so interesting he breaks that down a little bit like I was talking about if I’m the senior guy and I’m around yelling at people about how they’re looking that’s not good that should be my subordinate leadership should be tightening that stuff up okay here’s this conclusion again this is Monte talking in brief high morale has been defined as the quality which makes men endure and show courage in times of fatigue and danger the cultivation of morale depends on the training of leaders an inculcation of discipline the encouragement of comradeship and the infusing of self-respect the leaders must have a belief in their cause and they must pay attention to numerous contributory factors of considerable but secondary importance we live today in a scientific age but we soldiers have to remember that the raw material in which we have to deal is men man is still the first weapon of war his training is the most important consideration in fashioning of a fighting army all modern science is directed towards his assistants but on his efforts depends the outcome of the battle the morale of the soldier is the most important single factor in war so there’s Monty and that’s that can be said for just about any organization what your organization is made up of people and you know you hear that with businesses all the time and our people our most important assets that’s generally going to be the case here’s some now we get into the leadership the actual leadership section interesting again they start off with morale that’s the first chapter now they move into leadership and you know clearly from what he just said morale is the most important thing in winning battle I don’t agree I think leadership is the most important thing now is number one is number one factor in good morale is leadership so I guess you know you could see where we’re coming from a different angle but my thought is a little bit different my thought is the most important thing is leadership and I think that leadership covers other things just be besides the morale of the men because now we’re talking about the strategy that you’re using the tactic that you use and everything is covered by leadership including morale yeah so yeah they’re looking at it from up not opposite but just varying perspectives when he thinks leadership is part of morale you think around eyebrows are the leadership yes I think you have identified the situation correctly all right here some more from Monty on leadership I would define leadership as the will to dominate together with the character which inspires confidence a leader has got to learn to dominate the events which surround him you must never allow these events to get the better of him he must allow nothing to divert him from his aim he must always be on top of his job and be prepared to accept responsibility so Monty’s talking about ownership now what I have to caveat this with is you get these people that are single-minded right and that they’re going to dominate everything that’s going on around them and they do that from a tactical perspective not from a strategic perspective so for instance if you say I must never or I must dominate the events which surround me and must allow nothing to divert me from my aim that can actually be problematic if it doesn’t make strategic sense right so if I’m always worried about dominating everything that’s going on around me and the thing that’s going on around me isn’t really that important I’m wasting my time on it so this has to this has to be sort of offset a little bit by that dichotomy of leadership which is yes you want to dominate what’s going on but if what’s going on is important you need to let it go you need to just let it go a little bit all right so now we’re going to hear from Jeb and by the way this book what this book served to lead it’s it’s basically a bunch I said have said this in the beginning but it’s it’s a bunch of small excerpts bigger than quotes some of them are just quotes which I don’t do a bunch of like ages reading quotes I do a couple I’m going to do a couple today but some of them are like you know two three four pages of people’s views on leadership of which I’m pulling out some of the highlights and interestingly for the first time I was going through some of this and I was like you know what I’m actually it was something that I did something that I’ve said a million times and so I said you know what I’m not actually gonna highlight this again because I’ve said it over and over again now clearly with discipline I just talked about it for 47 minutes and I probably always will when I get the opportunity but there’s a lot more about this but as all section on discipline we’ll get to all right now we’re going to talk over here from the general john hackett again world war two half can campaign it’s part of Market Garden which is the big airborne operation world war two that here’s what he says I am a soldier in speaking of leadership I do so as a soldier and when I think about it as any soldier often must I do so in the context of battle pressures in battle are high and in battle as a consequence the problems of leadership stand out in bold relief and that’s something very similar which what I say which is combat is like life amplified and intensified wrote that an extreme ownership and that’s what I’m talking about and because it’s that way it’s very easy to identify what’s going on with the leadership it’s very the problems of leadership stand out in bold relief you said it better than me back to the book but while battle may be unique the problems that it exposes are not right yes leadership problems that have been working for seven years with other companies and people that are not going to battle and guess what the problem is that battle exposes are not unique to battle for leadership is concerned with getting people to do things and is most keenly needed when difficulties doubts and dangers are at their greatest in whatever sphere this is attempted the problems are essentially similar so anytime you’ve got a team you got trying to make them do something the problems are pretty much going to be similar back to look I said that leadership was concerned with getting people to do things what I meant was getting them to do things willingly so we don’t want to just bark orders of people that doesn’t work doesn’t work in business doesn’t work on the battlefield we’ll work for five minutes yes it will well I can I yell at you and get you to do something yep sure you’re on monster com looking for a new job and you know back to the book a man really only gets a full response from the men he leads by something approaching the complete fusion of his own identity with the hole that he and they together form so think about that if you’re in charge of something and you’re a leader you need to become that thing you need to become that team you need to become that goal mm I like that one and you can see when people get possessed like you look at the modern business leaders today those are people that you know Steve Jobs use the concept with the product the he was Apple and that’s one of those things that was so beneficial hmm Elon Musk just like he is what he’s trying to do yeah back to the book successful military leadership is impossible without the leaders total engagement in the task in hand and to the group committed to his care for its discharge and what’s interesting about that talk to your brother Jake Charles I’m not too long ago actually it was pretty long ago and he and he said something to me and it was like a big revelation to him and he was very is a very he had a good way of saying what I’m just reading about right now we were talking about something he was going to a meeting and he was going to be you know talking about something there was some controversy about whether we’re gonna go and and he said that the person that cares the most wins and that’s a great statement it’s very true is not a hundred percent true did the percentage is very high up there because if I just care about something so much and I’m gonna drive with it further than you if I care about this decision more than you do yeah I got a really good chance of winning yeah really good chance of winning yeah it kind of seems like that translates into any goal yeah I mean the more you care about it the more probability yeah I guess the only really only place where it becomes problematic is if I I care about something you know at 97 level 97 and you care about with a opposite decision you’re also at level 97 another thing is now we got an issue now we got a problem because we’re both going to think we’re gonna win and we both believe that we need to win again how does it run in the distant now we got an ego scenario going on and things become problematic and you know to where this just becomes stupid is in the when you hear people having political I would use an air quotes on that one political debates around something yeah you know this person totally believes 100% and this person totally cares a hundred percent and they’re going to go nuts on each other and they don’t listen to anything that the other person says and you end up with a big disaster on your hands of nonsense yeah a lot of those would be political diet that’s another one yeah you know I was learning I was listening to our podcast sure Andrew and what were we talking about we were talking I was talking about watching people in the news and that’s a classic situation where you’ve got somebody on a three-minute segment yeah and one person is a TV you know the hardcore in this direction the other person the hardcore in the other direction they both care they both care a lot yeah neither one of them is going to win then they actually that that goes the next that’s the next realization is that if you’re going up against person that cares as much as you do you actually have to take a back step and find another way you have to flank them yes you’re not going to be able to win them by going head to head they care is equal to you yeah and I’ve got to find a new solution otherwise you know what you’ll do expend all your ammunition charging machine gun nests and you will die yeah that you don’t want to do that if you care as much as me and I don’t have the same opinion I’ve got a flank you yeah a lot of these probably gonna let you think you just won the argument in order to fight you too by the way yeah yeah the again political religion diet how to raise kids you know these are all yeah what do you hot-button is that what you call it things that I’m not supposed to talk to or talk about around the Thanksgiving dinner yeah they get heated real quick and you and a lot of times we’re talking about people or not people but we talk about how much someone cares about it right and a lot of times the things that get mixed up is how much you care about it versus how much you care about your stance on it yeah there’s so many different buttons and different rap but even you got to put your ego into both those right that would be great so now you go I don’t want to admit that I’m wrong right that’s allowed to do that that means you care about your stance so when you make a buy yourself time but if you care about the issue like if I say if I mean you were having a debate the debate about kettle bell workouts or something that I like dumbbells you like cannibal but I really care about the issue and the issue is what’s the best exercise if I truly care about what the best exercises and not about my stance on what effect I’m going to care about real answer reddit with its Lancer or not so that’s why I think like political all these other things they have that and it is it’s just like I said to the ego yeah natural thing but they wind up caring more about their stance on it then they do the actual issues you know for sure don’t let that happen watch out for that one so yeah that $0 90 not 97 but the person who cares the most wins doesn’t apply to someone’s individual stance on something it has to subject and it also doesn’t apply to you know introduce you match I might really care about winning this thing about the other day because that’s another thing people say mental oh it’s all mental and here’s an example Alex Honnold who’s a rock climber who just climbed El Capitan in Yosemite which is 3 000 feet tall and you people say oh it’s all mental and and people say things you know if you want something bad enough do it you put me on that rock there’s a some crux move like 2 000 feet up 2 000 feet up that’s really hard and you’re smearing which is this technique and rock climbing where you don’t and I’ve done it before and I’m like the lowest white belt I’m not even a white belt like I’d like someone gave me my white belt to rock climbing I’m not I’m not like a legit but I know I’ve tried things I go to Yosemite and I’ll play around on the rocks and everything but I’ve tried this thing it’s called smearing and and you’re basically just using the tread or just the bottom of your rock climbing shoes on flat granite mmm and you can create enough friction ridges that you can you can move up it and some people are really good at it I just suck and you know you gotta have your gut your hand holds you’re working to but you’re using your feet and it’s this really weird balance that you have to do because if you push too hard to the rocks then your feet slip off and if you don’t push hard enough you don’t get any lift so it’s this really fine like balance you’ve got to have and apparently there’s one move or this one series of moves on this climb that he did that is assume you have to smear of course this is very natural for him but apparently he climbed that section with a rope like six or seven times to make sure it felt good and all that stuff here’s my point even if it wasn’t a smear part even if it was just holding on to rocks right at 2 000 feet I would absolutely want really really badly to hold on to the rocks I don’t have the muscular strength and do it I mean the things that he’s holding on to are smaller than will the first pad of your fingers that’s what he’s holding on to be tiny and we were doing this the other day at my house remember yep that little thing you actually had bet had stronger grip than me on the on the climbing board that I have at my house but I could I could couldn’t even hold on or I could hold on for five seconds and you like had to know it did you hold on to the really small one yeah yeah that’s legit I can’t even hold on to that thing so if I was 2 000 feet up and I really really really really really really wanted to do it and I was all mentally in the game guess what I’m falling to my death right because I don’t have the strength to do it I don’t have the physical strength and I need to build it and okay you could say and that that might be an acceptable answer okay if you really have the mental strength and will to do it then you’ll train train super hard right but at that moment not gonna help me I’m falling to my death right yeah I think that’s a metaphor but like it’s it’s like April man yeah it would be oh yeah it’s a romantic thing yeah yeah yeah I want it bad enough yeah and do it no actually not true but I want to do I want to take the extreme version I want to stay alive I’m 2 000 feet up I want really badly to stay alive doesn’t matter I can’t get across that section I can’t don’t have the hand strength to do it not happening yeah but they’re making a movie about that I can’t wait to see it about Alex Honnold climbing that rock Jimmy chin is the famous kind of photographer guy that they went and documented the whole thing and apparently one of the articles said that during that crux moment Alex Honnold was like hey when we get to here just like back off with the cameras he apparently was like you know just back off the cameras when I go through you know section 94 alpha coz what I think he thought he didn’t need any cameras around real close when he might fall to his death eh it’s bad heavy yeah like will or is it because it might break his concentration or both I don’t know I don’t know but that’s crazy yeah have your video somebody know it’s it’s El Capitan is 3 000 feet straight up of granite it takes people 3 4 5 days to climb up it he climbed it in 3 hours and 45 minutes with a chalk bag and a pair of shoes it’s ridiculous it’s ridiculous it’s ridiculous yeah completely ridiculous 3 000 feet that’s very tall echo you’re trying to imagine it let me he’ll know I mean a halogen anything you’ve ever seen it’s taller than a skyscraper and pray it goes it’s just huge any climb bitten with no ropes that means there’s no rest that means there’s no break yeah and it means there’s no mistakes you can’t make a mistake if you make a mistake you die yeah crazy very impressive I don’t even know why we’re talking about Alex Honnold right now oh because we’re talking about the lentil will yeah yeah well whoever believes it the most yeah I mean whoever believes the most wins all cares about it sorry not believe there’s good as much as I care about staying alive I wouldn’t be able to pull it off yeah I think in Jade’s situation that it did make sense though you know cuz you’re you know no not does make sense yeah it does make sense and that’s why I was able to do a lot of stuff that I’ve been able to do in my career when I was in the military a lot of the stuff that I was able to get done I was able to get done because I cared about it whatever else okay yeah I like you you think you’re gonna you know you think you’re going to out perform my task unit I care about this so much I don’t care I care about this so much you’re not gonna be able to compete with me yes because you might think I’ll get there at five o’clock in the morning I’ve been there for an hour you might think I’m going to have my guys drill this ten times I’m gonna have my guys drill at 20 times I care about this too much for you to win can’t beat me you can’t beat me it’s not going to happen I care about this too much not in a bad way not in a selfish way I care about this as I love this right this is everything to me you know you have other things going on and you got your wife and you got your family you got this other thing going on in your life and you got goals that you want I don’t care about any of those things this is all I care about so therefore you can’t compete with me hmm and that’s pretty cool it’s a cool place to be right we get overseas people are thinking about all these other things no you don’t care about anything I don’t care about anything else this is the only thing I care about mmm so it ends up getting boiled down to just not stopping right not not cleaning not giving up yeah that definitely plays a role that definitely is a role I am of course there’s got to be balanced because if let’s say I don’t care about let’s say you know my focus is 100% my steel task unit but then I forget about the fact that we’re working with other army units only thing I care about is my unit well no actually need to care about the mission more right I need to care about our strategic where we’re going strategically because otherwise I’m thinking I just want to get my guys taking care of I just want to get my guys more work I just want to get no actually I I do what care what Trump’s my care for the task unit was care for the mission of what we’re trying to accomplish now luckily those two things are completely aligned so there was never any time where I was thinking oh should I do this to benefit the tasking or benefit the mission no no if it benefited the mission it benefited asking if it benefited asking it benefited the mission period so I care about those things he can have a hard time competing with me and luckily in Ramadi there wasn’t any competition we were all working together that’s what was so amazing about it yeah was Army Marine Corps us everyone was just working together to accomplish missions because that’s what you get when you get a nasty battlefield you get people working together all right another piece this is a guy named general mom cell war is pre-eminently the art of the man who dares to take the risk of the man who think deeply and clearly of the man who when accident intervenes is not thereby cast down but changes his plans and disposition with the readiness of a resolute and reflective mind which so far as is possible has foreseen and provided against difficult tee’s there you go that’s what we’re talking about Oh accident intervenes cool good I’m not cast down change plans adapt back book no now no man can inspire confidence and others who is not confident in himself and self confidence comes from knowledge a thorough understanding of modern weapons and organization tactics and the details Administration affecting all those under his command must therefore be acquired by every leader he must show his troops that he can plan soundly lead resolutely and deal promptly and effectively with the unexpected in addition to gain full confidence of his troops a leader must have their personal friendship and trust I like that again I’ve there was a there was a seal officer that once was briefing guys and said hey if your guys if your if your people like you they then they you’re not doing a good job and not true he’s actually saying they need your trust and personal friendship and trust yeah what you saying something like that they even that you can’t push that too far well of court right it means you gotta bounce down on me a leadership you can’t be such close friends that you’re choosing them that you’re putting one person as more important than the mission or the team and that’s the dichotomy a leadership okay now he puts together this list which yeah we’re feeling pretty good about this one a shortlist to leadership given as follows perfect your military knowledge study the use of weapons their tactical handing the enemies character and methods and way to make use of ground so I don’t care what job you’re in apply those right know your tools know the enemy know your competitor next study the men under your command know them well and be known to them gain their confidence by your knowledge energy and skill and by your interest in their welfare always be cheerful with however you may feel teach yourself to think out reason depreciations leading to clever but uncomplicated plans quickly and unheard Li so there you go keep things simple no your people get I like says know your people get them to know you too yeah that’s important next study methods of deception and make full use of them always aim at misleading the enemy always seek surprised keep your object clearly before you concentrate your efforts and resources at the decisive point always think well ahead prioritize mexic you work out the best methods of control in different tactical situations practice them constantly study the situation carefully don’t waste any time make up your mind and stick to it get out your orders quickly make certain that everyone clearly knows what you intend it to be done commander’s intent maintain the initiative make opportunities and seize them at once I like that make opportunities oh I do I like that don’t wait for them to come be prepared to take risks but don’t be foolhardy no your commanders intention and act in accordance with it don’t wait for orders inaction is always wrong so there you go what this is just reiterating things that I talk about all the time never take counsel of your fears think of the enemy’s difficulties in how you can take advantage of them remember that it is willpower that wins oh he’s going off there’s nothing about carry instead of my will which will goes a long way never relax your efforts until victory is won attend to the comfort of the troops before you think of your own this is all just phenomenal stuff be loyal to your superiors and your subordinates express your views clearly and frankly but when a decision has been reached fully supported and stopped all criticism never take shelter behind others when things for which you are responsible have gone wrong take some ownership oh I like this one refrain from jealousy resentment and self seeking be tactful never make friction be thoughtful and considerate but maintain firm discipline they think about how bad this thing about the dichotomy that be thoughtful and considerate but maintain foreign discipline never order troops to do what you are not prepared to do yourself never give an unnecessary order that’s a good one think about that one never give an unnecessary order and I’ll tell you why I like that one it is because if you’re doing a good job as a leader orders should barely even be necessary yeah they should barely even be necessary talk about this with life the other day I am weak I’m sure we could go back through you know the history of tasking a bruiser but as we were having a conversation we were working with a company I don’t think I ever gave an order to either one of my two platoon commanders either life or the Delta platoon commander I don’t think I ever said this is what you’re going to do that’s an order like you see in the movies all right well we’re going to ask you they say that do they ever say does anyone ever do that there’s a tail order if you yes it can be said yeah I’m trying to think I’m sure it’s been I I I think it’s been said to me before no more like in admit like non-administrative situation gosh I don’t know if anyone’s ever said it to me before like that’s an order I don’t know I’m trying to think of there’s been some situation where someone said to me like hey basically like you’ve pushed far enough taco stand down I got in one of those before like hey we get it Jocko you care about this a lot it’s not happening stand down oughta goggles especially got those like when I was a young enlisted god of driving with an ID I’d just be wanting to crush it and people would be kind of saying hey well no we can’t borrow and I’d be like no I can’t why can’t we why want why want why won’t we do this you need to do this this is the smart thing to you know it’s the right thing to do and I would just eventually get like the little hey stand down we’re not doing it okay you know what I’m gonna do become an officer I want to listen to you anymore so yeah I’ve got I think I’ve got a couple stand downs in my time stand down that’s in order cuz yet that’s an order that when you think of our anyway when I think but it really does seem like a movie line yeah and one thing is that means that you have not done a good job as a leader if I have to say that’s an order really means I haven’t done this good job as a leader that means you don’t understand the mission you don’t understand it intent you don’t understand I haven’t conveyed it to you properly and the only way I can get you to listen is by saying if that’s an order yeah a plane rank yeah pulling rank on you that’s not a good not a good situation back to the book never overlook failure to carry one out so it’s never given unnecessary order never overlooked failure to carry one out some people have to chime in with their opinions on that one never overlook failure to carry one out I’m not sure on that one what does that mean to carry one that’s I’m saying I don’t know it says it says never order troops to do what you’re not prepared to do yourself never give an unnecessary order never overlook failure to carry one out to carry out an order yeah to carry one out never overlook failure to carry one out I’m not sure what he means by that look I’m sure what some people will give us some opinions on that one on the Facebook you when I release keep fit yourself and make certain that your men do to keep your own nerves under control and study your men’s good for like when you want to comment if you’re listening and you want to comment you have an opinion on that one put it on the Facebook post so it can follow the conversation as opposed to Twitter which is 140 characters you know what I mean oh yeah it’s easier to see it on Facebook when there’s a legit question or someone has some legit big feedback if you put it on the thread for podcast number 81 when I post it that’s the place to put in there in the replies yeah when I can like converse back on that subject without having to go through 17 000 tweets yeah I mean go back and forth they replay your hand but not here yeah so it’s all laid out on Facebook so it’s a good place to have those little conversations Twitter we have different kinds of conversations sure last of all remember that success in war depends more than anything else on the will to win cool again now we got Monty saying more Al’s most important we got Jocko saying leadership is most important and you got Brigadier General monsell saying that the will to win is the most important I’m not going to actually argue with either one of these guests yeah together all got all kinds of experience but much more intense than mine speaking of intense experience more than mine there’s a guy a pseudonym meaning a fake name Basilisk and the guy wrote something called talks on leadership and the guy’s actual name was Alfred burned and he was a World War 1 and World War two veteran then he was a military historian and he’s got a little section in here called being straight there’s one trait in the character of a leader that above all things really counts and it perhaps counts in war even more than in peace being straight no amount of ability knowledge or cunning can ever make up for not being straight once those under him find out that a commander absolutely straight in all his dealings with them and free from the slightest trade of self-interest other than the self-interest of which we are all guilty when striving for victory of causes we believe to be right they will love him as their leader trust him work for him follow him and should the occasion arise die for him with the fundamental ability of the British soldier which comes to the surface when things are at their worst so being straight with you people very important very important in fact perhaps his most important above all so now we got another factor that’s the most important thing now it can hear a little on leadership from Field Marshal Lord a herring once again World War 1 and World War 2 veteran he also fought the Second Battle of alameen he was wounded lost some fingers recovered got back to the fight so he says about leadership here there are some people who believe that leadership is something which is inborn or which you acquire automatically at a public school but neither of those things are true there are certain fundamental qualities which affect leadership and which depend to a very large extent on upbringing and the moral and spiritual values which you can learn which you learn in your family and in your environment as a young man but there is no special way nor is there any special caste or class which has the prerogative of leadership there are many forms of leadership political parties have their leaders every big organization in industry or commerce all have their leaders and at the other end of the scale so do dance bands and so do gangs of thieves and smugglers there are many qualities that apply equally to every type of leader but you and I are concerned with one particular type of leadership to my mind the highest type of all and that is a leadership on the battlefield and I believe it to be highest type because it has to be exercised under conditions of great difficulty and considerable danger I would like to be quite I would like you to be quite clear about the conditions under which you will have to exercise leadership you will frequently be tired you may also be cold and wet and hungry and thirsty you may be dripping with sweat or you may be freezing with cold you won’t know precisely what is going on you won’t know exactly where the enemy is you certainly won’t know what he is going to do or what his capabilities are of doing anything you may not know where your own people are or what they are going to do to put it briefly you’ve got to be able to exercise leadership and conditions of fatigue and fear uncertainty and ignorant and often in isolation that is what makes it extremely difficult and that is why leadership on the battlefield calls in my view for the highest qualities many qualities are required and leader different people have different views about which are more important in my opinion there are five outstanding mental and physical moral and spiritual qualities without which you cannot hope to be successful and a good leader on the battlefield the first of those qualities is a mental and physical one and that is fitness absolute fitness of mind and body so make sure you’re getting your morning physical training in physical fitness mental fitness next then I would say you’ve got to have complete integrity you’ve got to be honest not only with yourselves but with the men you lead and the people with whom you work and honesty and integrity are things that you cannot compromise with you cannot alter if you do you will lose confidence and you will not be able to lead you must have complete integrity so that’s the same thing as being straight yeah not after that not in any next sorry next after that not in any order of priority but this is how I have put them down deep in my mind there is an enduring courage pretty well everyone can be brave for a few minutes most of us can if we steal ourselves to it take one pledge or make one decision or incur one risk but the sort of courage you must have to lead on the battlefield is an enduring courage and one that you will go that will go on when other people falter one that will enable you to do what you know to be right irrespective of the danger or the difficulty contrary often contrary to the advice of well-meaning friends so gotta have courage next then you must have daring initiative initiative means doing right away what you might if you had time think of doing a few minutes later I like this if you wait for things to happen to you they will happen alright and Here I am quoting the words of my predecessor also spoken here they will happen to you but they won’t be what you like and they certainly won’t bring you success initiative means seeing at once and very quickly what needs to be done making up your mind to do it and then seeing it through to the middle at bitter end so I love that one if you wait for things to happen to you they certainly will a little bit more on willpower here then you must have undaunted willpower the willpower is the motive power it is what enables you to make yourself fit in mind and body to producing you in your heart the courage the enduring courage that I spoke of to give you the courage to do your duty and to make the sacrifice that may be called from you it is the willpower that forces you to take the initiative to make the plan to do what is required to see it through and that willpower must be undaunted it must never allow itself to be overcome or subdued perhaps the finest example living today of the power and influence for good of man with undaunted willpower as our prime minister in one of the critical periods of the last war he spoke certain words I am going to quote you now he said all the great struggles in history have been won by superior willpower resting victory in the teeth of odds or upon the narrowest of margins it is the willpower that is superior that can wrest victory and the teeth of odds that is the type of willpower that has got to be developed in a leader on the battlefield mobilize your will now he talks about some other qualities he talks about knowledge he talks about judgment he talks about keen spirit saying because you cannot get success on the battlefield by yourself you’ve got to work with other people so obviously as a leader you have to have that spirit of teamwork and closing out he says there’s one other thing I would like to say to you as British officers you will never have all you want all you need you’ll be short of this or that or the other sometimes you will be short of men other times your equipments or weapons may not be as good you think they ought to be nor will you have as many as you would like you may be short of ammunition you may also be short of food and water or other necessary things when these circumstances arise as they do often throughout your service both in Keis and war there’s only one motto and that is to make certain that you do the very best you can with what you’ve got don’t bellyache about what you have not got but get on and make certain you do your utmost with what you have got now to sum up what I’ve tried to say this afternoon I would like to put it like this first keep fit absolutely fit then be honest honest with yourselves and honest with those with whom you work then have courage and make it an enduring courage next be bold be daring and when there is a choice take the bold and daring course make the very most of what you have got and never never never give in yes do what you can with what you’ve got until you really like that one I like sometimes is that attracted me alright next there’s a chapter in this book which is called discipline which makes me very happy and again I tried to censor myself from not just doing the entire chapter obviously you can buy this book if you want to see the whole thing there’s some great points this first one is from Field Marshal Earl Wavell who was in the Boer Wars and he was in World War one and in World War two lost his left eye in the Battle of Ypres so what we’re talking a warrior here that was went back for service here’s what he said about discipline discipline is teaching which makes a man do something which he would not unless he had learned that it was the right the proper and the expedient thing to do at its best it is instilled and maintained by pride in one’s self in one’s unit in one’s profession only at its worst by fear of punishment so he’s talking we want self-discipline we don’t want imposed discipline that’s what he’s saying you don’t want I don’t want you doing this because you’re scared of me if you don’t do what I tell you I’m going to beat you that’s not what I want I want you’re saying I’m going to do this because I want to do it here’s a little something from Monty here and we’re gonna get some disagreements going I’m going to disagree with Monty sorry Monty was you’re here to defend yourself okay on discipline Monty the basis of training must be self-disciplined cool a man must learn to be the master of himself and to keep in subjection the bad qualities in his makeup I love that self-discipline can be developed by training in such things as conception of duty self control self respect endurance and so on we then have collective discipline and there’s no doubt that the initial training in this subject is best carried out by drill men must be taught instinctively to obey orders whatever they are I do not believe men will fight voluntarily for a cause without the iron bonds of discipline the best form of discipline is subordination of self for the benefit of the community so I’m going to make some comments on those number one when you saying that you should obey orders regardless of what they are don’t agree I don’t agree that I want my men to question my orders I want them to if I’m telling them to do something that they don’t think is smart I want them to question me hmm I want them to come up with then a better solution that’s how we’re gonna win even the moral thing to right like to obey orders regardless oh yeah but there are oral for sure for sure I want my whole team to be hey if this is the wrong thing to do we shouldn’t be doing it yeah next the other one he says here is he says that people won’t fight for a cause without the iron bonds of discipline I don’t believe that that’s true either and I think if you look at American history guys we didn’t have this strict love of course there’s this discipline of course in the military and there’s imposed discipline in the military but the things that people and all soldiers have accomplished without strict imposed discipline is they’ve given their lives over and over and over thousands and thousands and thousands and hundreds of thousands of cases where men have given their lives not because not because I said or because the leader said go and charge this machine-gun nest that’s that’s not why they did it they did it because they believed in the cause so I don’t agree with that one I think that men will fight voluntarily for a cause without the iron bonds of discipline and you know what I think they do it I think they do it when that causes freedom so when the cause is freedom I believe men will fight without the bonds of discipline over them and this idea that the best form of discipline is the subordination of self for the benefit of the community I don’t actually agree with that one either I think the best form of discipline is when there is alignment in the discipline the discipline for the team and the individual bring success and survival and freedom and when those things are aligned that’s when I think you get the finest form of discipline now he recovers a little bit from my criticism here and of course to everyone that is wondering why I’m sort of making fun of myself it’s pretty embarrassing to be sitting here and disagreeing with a guy like Monty so please don’t take me the wrong way just giving my opinion here and I’m in no way comparing my military knowledge with general Montgomery and he doesn’t say this the basis of all discipline is self discipline which this is beautiful when I agree with that hundred percent this this self discipline may come from within a person or may be imposed upon him from without don’t agree that’ll only last a little while whatever it serves its source it involves the idea of self control and self restraint that is true but there is I think it’s called situational discipline I think or what is that I could I could have the expression wrong but I think either situational just meaning like if you’re in a certain situation you’ll have you’ll be really self disciplined but once you get out you’re not you know like um I don’t know you ever you ever watch watch the B is a show called The Biggest Loser now so yeah the only people that are having weight problems they go on a show they get fed certain things made to workout I lose a bunch of weight and then they win the program and then when they go back home and they’re not around that imposed discipline right they lose it right that’s my point yeah my point is that that imposed discipline it works if while you have the impose er yeah they’re asking you what I would prefer is to have someone that makes a change in their mindset and develops itself this right now sometimes you can get that from imposed discipline and you realize like you get shown the freedom that it discipline gives you and then you carry on with it like a lot of people that listen to the podcast and they’ve done incredible things with their lives because we weren’t there to impose discipline on them but they recognize themselves maybe they said okay you know what I’m going to get up for the next two weeks and we get up earlier more workout I’m going to eat healthy two weeks go by they’ve lost a little bit of body fat they’ve gained a little bit of muscle and they feel good right and all of a sudden they realize the benefits of discipline and so they change their mindset they become more disciplined human beings yeah that’s what I like yeah when I don’t like is it I’ll run a boot camp on you and yell at you and screaming I think people want me to yell and scream I get that I think once or twice a day someone will say you need to make an alarm clock where you yell and tell us tell me to get out of bed yeah and I say get psychological warfare but I’m not going to yell in psychological warfare because yelling isn’t an effective tool compared to actually speaking to someone and letting them understand why it’s important yeah that’s the preferred tool occasionally you got to yell at people occasionally yes you do occasionally not very often though yes pretty rare huh but yeah that yeah right now with that situational discipline because even I think about what’s worse somebody yelling at you or someone whispering at you it’s actually worse isn’t it some ways yeah in a lot of ways yeah to me it’s worse sure yelling and screaming just doesn’t know and it really doesn’t really matter what they’re saying either if you choose what yelling or whisper because like you know even if they’re telling you a normal thing like hey here this is what I want from the store I want avocados tomatoes and you know some wine but what if I whisper it to you hey Chuck that come here bro am i freaked me out actually yeah yes so you didn’t hear about that exist no no you get that’s that’s the point doesn’t really matter what they’re saying whispering versus oh yeah it definitely has a different psychological effect for sure yeah that was me free fat you being a joke when you pick up a bottle of wine okay no actually I can’t I’m leaving yeah the wine kind of makes it extra awkward for sure all right so now we get into another part on discipline right here and this is Sir John Fortescue and when you pay attention to this one cousin we circle in sideways I have in my mind rather those excellent but generally unthinking persons who shrink with horror from the idea of a man’s abdicating his civil rights what they say a man must obey even an unjust command under pain it may be of death it is monstrous for purposes of civil life it might be monstrous but not for the purposes of implicit obedience which is the thing that matters in the army let there be justice as far as possible by all means but as a general principle it is better for an army that an injustice should be done than that an order should be disobeyed this however is an argument that cannot appeal to our to our imaginary objector because he has read no military history so that’s just very disturbing this whole thing and it really doesn’t comply with anything that I say which is I want you to question orders if they’re not good orders you shouldn’t obey Him and he said no no no it’s better to do something unjust as long as you’re obeying orders and I did a little bit of research about John Fortescue and you know obviously I don’t agree with this and actually in the new version of the book he the the guy that writes the forward to the new version of this specifically calls out John Fortescue and says we removed him the him these are gone from the book thing and what I found out about him was yes he was in the army he was a major in the army but I don’t think he was in any combat and what I do know is that he was the Royal librarian from 1905 until 1926 and he died in 1923 so he didn’t go to World War one really all these other guys are World War One World War two veterans he was the life of royal librarian and it’s interesting when he says because he has read no military doesn’t said because he’s never been in combat before he says he’s read an exec of the person that would object this is never read military history well okay I clearly theory yeah he’s going with the theory yeah and and if you want to take this and stretch it out more broadly this attitude you know I hate World War one I hate World War one because it was so based on obedience and you are going to charge we’re going to charge this trench all 7 000 of us are going to charge tomorrow morning at 0 6:30 we’re to go over the top where you get mowed down by machine guns and then the people are going to follow us and do the same thing and they’ve guys were so obedient and brave and just selfless to do that but this attitude is what made that war so devastating because no one said hey wait a second this doesn’t seem smart to me yeah I just watched you know of two three four battalions or two three four regiments get mowed down and now you’re telling me I’m gonna do the same thing tomorrow with my men no I want you to question my orders I want you to say no if I’m making you do something that doesn’t make sense I want you to say no and if I can’t explain it to you in a logical way then I should rethink what I’m saying to you so mr John Fortescue we’re gonna have to say that we’ve kind of changed our opinion on on obedience and there are more important things and then obedience in a team in a military team and in the business world here’s another piece from this going back to General William slim any army without discipline is no more than a mob alternating between frightened sheep and beasts of prey discipline as the British soldiers demonstrated in peace and war is the old Christian virtue of unselfishness of standing by your neighbor your comrade it is the sacrifice of a man’s comfort inclination safety even life for others for something greater than himself it is the refusal to be the weak link in the chain that snaps under under strain and this is a great little story here one paragraph back to book once from the safety of a well dug command post I looked down on a battery of artillery in action in the African bush it was firing at five rounds per gun per minute and idly I timed the nearest gun in that area the enemy unfortunately had complete local air supremacy and guns unless engaged in some vital task were ordered to remain silent whenever hostile aircraft appeared gradually dominating all other sounds came the dull drone of bombers flying low but guns went on firing five rounds per gun permitted for they were supporting an infantry attack cover move by the way the first stick of bombs fell around the gun I was watching some of its crew were hit the dry brush roared into flame which spread instantly to the camouflage nets over the gun it vanished from my sight in smoke and flame yet from the very midst of that inferno at the exact intervals came the flash and thud of the firing gun five rounds per minute per gun never a falter never a second doubt no weak link there the discipline held that’s pretty awesome sections here talking about duty and service and we’re going to first start with Colonel George Henderson a British officer who fought in Egypt and at the Battle of Casson and he fought the Boer Wars as well and he talks about Waterloo here we go back to the book no incident is more familiar in our military history than the stubborn resistance of the British line at Waterloo through the long hours of the midsummer day silent and immovable squares and squadrons stood in the trampled corn harassed by an almost incessant fire of cannon and musketry to which they were forbidden to make reply not a moment but heard some cry of agony not a moment but some comrade fell headlong into the furrows yet as bullets of the skirmishers hailed around them and the great shot tore through the tight packed ranks the word was passed quietly close in on the centre men and as the Sun neared its setting the regiment’s still shoulder to shoulder stood fast upon the ground they had held at noon the spectacle is characteristic in good fortune and an ill it is rare indeed that a British regiment does not hold together and this indestructible cohesion best of all qualities that an armed body can possess is based not merely on hereditary resolution but on mutual confidence and mutual respect the man and the ranks has implicit faith in his officer the officer and almost unbounded belief in the valor and discipline of his men and that I’ve talked about this and people want to know what makes the SEAL Teams do well the thing that makes the SEAL Teams do well is the bond that holds them together and that bond is so strong that it’s unbreakable and that’s why seals do well in combat because we have a bond that is unbreakable stronger than anything that’s going to get thrown at us the Brotherhood is gonna stand and I’m going to close this book out with two more quotes and speaking of Waterloo this one is from Wellington and this is a very simple quote he said my rule was always to do the business of the day in the day and I I was reading this book the other day and I actually posted something about it but I I was I didn’t realize I was thinking about this but we have a saying in the SEAL Teams plan your dive and dive your plan is the same so when you’re when you’re doing a combat swimmer attack which is when you’re on a rebreather and you’re diving underwater and what if you’ve ever done before if you don’t understand this it’s very hard to comprehend what combat swimmers like but I’ll give you a real quick brief when you’re doing a combat dive on Italy breather you basically can’t see anything it’s nighttime you’re down at 10 12 15 feet underwater it’s black you can’t see anything there’s no like fish swimming around there’s no sea life to look at there’s no coral reef it’s black you can’t see anything the only thing you can actually see is something called an attack aboard which an attack board sounds really cool but let me tell you what it is it’s a piece of plastic woman it used to be wood that has on it a depth gauge a compass and the watch to time and so you put little tiny chem-lights little glowing camera and you actually tape them up so that they’re barely emitting any light at all and you put one by the stopwatch one by the compass and one by the depth gauge and when you’re underwater so you have those things they’re basically strapped on to this board that you hold I don’t know it’s like like – about the size of a piece of paper right of eight-and-a-half by eleven piece paper that’s about how big this board is and on it you’ve got your depth gauge your compass and your stopwatch and you can barely see them they’re glowing very faintly and when you’re underwater that’s all you can see it is just that you can’t see anything else occasionally you’ll get like some weird abstract light from the moon or something but even that’s rare because you’re down underwater and if you ever been in water with low visibility sometimes that sometimes it’s actually hard to see the attack board that’s two feet in front of your face so then what you’re doing is you’re looking at that compass you’re looking at that depth gauge and you’re looking at the stopwatch and you have pre-planned legs that you’re going on you’re going to go this long this this bearing this long this depth for this time and when I say so you’re kicking looking at this board for an hour and 17 minutes then you’re going to make a 90-degree turn and you’re going to go for another 48 minutes and then you’re going to make a right turn for 12 minutes and you’re going to hit your target then you’re going to turn around do some other route back out as long as you can stay underwater you stand of water then eventually you run out of oxygen you come to the surface and you swim the rest of the way to your extract any visions of the glory and the fun of being a seal this is it’s not it’s work and it’s hard work and you have to concentrate the whole time and you got to make sure you don’t go too shallow or too deep if you go too shallow you’ll be seen if you go too deep you’re can go off the the dive tables that you’re allowed to be on oxygen for so you’ve got to focus the whole time then by the way your despair and your buddy that’s with you he’s even more miserable than you are because he has no idea what’s going on he’s just trying to keep up with you because for some reason the way you dive the way you put your body when you have the attack board you can swim a little bit faster than the guy that’s looking around and making sure that you’re not going to hit anything and make sure not so there’s only one tack board put in here there’s a one attack book for prepare sometimes we would make to make a smaller attack board just because it was so much more efficient to fly with them but you can’t fly you if you’re the buddy you’re you can’t be just looking at the attack board you have to look around attack board the attack board attack that’s what we call the attack board so with all that the reason I’m telling you all this is that when you’re underwater it’s really easy to get confused and turned around and sometimes you go over big pieces of metal that are in the water and your compass starts to like wander around and you can’t communicate with your buddy no no that’s what it sounds like man you’ve got so we know we have squeeze signals and sometimes we carry grease pens to write but it never there’s no real effective way to communicate underwater so you’re just in this dark just cold blind situation four three two three four hours at a time and the saying is that we have is plan your dive and dive your plan because if you and I go underwater and then we start trying to adjust things while we’re underwater and we just we think we’re going to do something different once we go first of all you and I to be thinking two different things and then it’s going to be a disaster so we we plan our dive and dive our plan and that’s reminded me of this statement do the business of the day in the day yeah right get done what you say you’re going to get done do it and how simple is that and it’s like dive your plan and what I said the other day I said plan what you’re going to do and then do what you planned that’s real simple yeah and and think of how far you’re going to think of where you will be in two weeks if every day you plan what you’re going to do then you do what you planned yeah it’s it’s amazing yeah it seems so that that’ll does what we’re talking about a few weeks ago where it’s like distractions that’s the thing you know I’ve seen there’s like just industries of distractions yeah for sure you never wake up I was explaining my eight-year-old daughter the other day that they design cuz she was playing a game on iPad oh yeah well what are you learning from that and she said what do you mean I said oh are you learning anything from that she said well I you have to get these rings as it oh so you’re not learning anything from that yeah and she said I don’t I don’t I said you know what they do they make that game to make you want to play it more if there’s no there’s no man to the Gators no other way they just want you to play that game keep clicking on that types of yeah but there look you know of course I’m just being a total jerk I’m like yeah look at how they are how well it works look at you you can’t look at you you you look at you holding onto this thing and she doesn’t falses anymore when she was younger I used to go up and and press her head as if her head was getting softer I’d look at her like oh man how long have you been on this for and you say I don’t know and it’s a I think if you stop now your brain might harden back up eventually probably do the same thing with with her uh her muscles like meaning like chips aside any tips there’s like oh your muscle getting like all soft right now yeah like a she’s young before so it works yeah also it works but they do they play plan these things so the bait addicted yeah those iPad ones there’s no end well everything is designed that right right maybe I’m you talk about the Facebook app that shows the little thing that shows oh yeah likely an SLR here and this might be the message that I’ve been waiting for right variable reward it might not be so that’s the thing that’s if you know guaranteed it was going to be consistently it’s less addictive called variable reward yeah that’s what I’m saying but you see everyone in their mind is thinking this might be yeah this link might be a big one exactly I’m getting contacted by Mike Anisha see they saw my tweet they’re getting back at these are going to come on the podcast we’re gonna techniques tenaciously a Jack Black and Kyle Gass know well is that a movie it’s a band okay from a movie they have been in a movie yes and then Jen black Jackie laughter now I got selected allowed another musician okay gotcha School of Rock that’s not a rock that’s a great shallow hell that’s not a movie that’s Jack Black no no he is an actor like I said in addition to being a wrong member we look scotch Eames oh cool why do we just talk about oh yeah because I think it oh this might be the tweet that I was waiting for from tenacious d sure so I gotta check my Twitter in 47 times a minute yeah no not happening you can’t you you don’t have a tweet from tenacious B that’s not there they didn’t treat you yeah so don’t check your Twitter go and do something productive yeah but so and that’s when you’re already distracted so basically the point was you know do your power plan your day or do you know and and do the plan right yeah because no one plan your day and do what you plan yeah that’s it so you no one plans to what’s really J well really jacked up is if you actually took what you did in a day and you wrote it down and planned it I bet you could get it done in so much less time like right now I’ve got a lot of stuff going on right now and I’m doing things that normally take me two hours I’m doing in 46 minutes same quality by the way today getting after it right but you got to put a little suspense date on something and say let’s do here you got to get it done and then you just sit down and make it happen yes that’s what you need to do so it’s it’s one of those simple with any of these easy things but this is what so you wouldn’t you put in a way you put these kind of parameters on what you’re going to do and if like okay I’m making a plan and I’m sticking to the plan right that’s what I’m doing so I plan to do XYZ excellent you know all these things yeah and if it so basically right when you say okay here’s the plan you outline it if it’s not in the plan you just don’t do it it’s so yeah so distractions no one plans like hey tomorrow I’m going to just eat like crap tomorrow that’s the plan that’s never the plan you know but if you don’t have any plan or nothing sure you allow those things to come in so like okay tomorrow and you’re not gonna plan the whole day you’re not gonna find every meal you’re not gonna if you did it would be real effective yeah if you did you stay on locked right I so much in the meal prep the night before exactly when you go to those phases where you’re cooking seven chicken breasts and you’re just ready you got everything laid out and if you do it yeah there you go yeah really people do that every pose in degrees and it works yes sir yeah exactly right so and is it realistic and really when you think about it kind of is if you’re committed to it well what’s crazy is is it takes more work upfront how long does it take to prepare all your meals for the week and by the way I don’t do this yeah but how long I’ve done it before how longs it take preparing meals it takes you two hours two hours and 20 minutes let’s say same amount of time by the when you get done preparing those and you save time in the week right because now you’re not sitting around just get redeploying your pots and pans redeploying your stove settings and all that other stuff and you actually are going to save time you know if you plan your day yeah and then you do your plan yeah and think about this if you use a meal prep example where okay you don’t typically we don’t plan on every meal for a week typically we just don’t do that but when you do the meal prep planning situation you’re saying are we meeting human beings in nearly every way is that technical person so that’s a good example when you do that now boom that your meals a element of your life that typically isn’t quote unquote planned is now planned so now those parameters are set so anything outside those parameters you just don’t really think about as much you know and when they kind of enter you it’s real obvious like hey that’s not part of this plan what the hell you know it’s like it’s more it’s like but if you don’t plan it they come in it’s kind like whatever there’s no parameters there anyway in my head so that goes for everything you do so just like how you’re saying yeah I have a lot of stuff so you plan okay I’m going to do this here do this now do this at this time finish it by this time all this stuff those parameters are set so the distractions have way hard to come to get it so in everyday life you can make some ambiguous goal hey I want to eat better know plan by the way just it’s an ambiguous goal there’s a parameters on there so you take one this step you you know you were at the stop stoplight for longer than you expected now you’re late for this now I’m pressed for time there’s McDonald’s right and it’ll just sneak right in but if you got those parameters in McDonald’s no not part of my plan right now yeah my plan I gotta do you know like a dashiki yeah another thing I if you’re gonna plan your day you should actually plan to have time in there that has nothing in it right so you should you should plan to have a half an hour where you’re where you’re gonna address problems right okay so that way a problems cuz they’re gonna come up yeah yeah you got to have your your free time and by free I mean free to go make other things happen and just and make things good but what you shouldn’t do is say cuz I tell you there’s some things that I have a really hard time like with the podcast I’ll keep preparing the podcast I’ll just clearing it right I’ll just get all the time I know I go beyond that because I there’s another story that ties into something else and I’m gonna go pull out another book and by the way I gotta run out of time to get it from Amazon so I’m gonna go to the library you know I mean you go down where I could prepare for a podcast forever and not be ready for it and so I have to put my own self and check and say okay draw the line on this level of depth on this thing now I might make a footnote and I’ve kind of cool category now on my computer that’s you know tangents where I opened a tangent and I didn’t close it on the podcast so now we’re going to be able to enter them at a different time huh when when time allows because I can get focused on that one subject so that’s pretty cool yeah but it takes discipline to do that because otherwise I would just go down every rabbit yeah it’s enough and you do take a book like this and there’s so many rabbit holes and there it’s almost impossible to stay out of them yeah it’s kind of ridiculous yeah in a way you go my point is playing plan your day and then execute you plan if you do that it’s going to make a huge difference in your life and what’s good you look up you look up in a month two months three months the amount of stuff that you’ve gotten done is ridiculous and I’ll tell you one of the ways that I do do that myself is I just cast myself with die I say I’m gonna do things and you’ll ever have to do yeah our create that plan if let’s say with this podcast a good example we do this podcast once a week we’ve held the line really well on that if we didn’t if we said you know what let’s just put the podcast out when we put it out yeah if that was the mindset we had from the beginning we would probably I’m gonna guess that we would have less than half of the podcasts would have been put out that’s my guess because we understood you know what hey I got a train this week and I’m gonna miss that and I haven’t read the book that I was going to read so cuz right now bro yo I’ve got 15 minutes that little half hour of my schedule where I have nothing guess what I’m doing in that half an hour I’m doing 22 minutes worth of reading of a book that’s coming up yeah that’s what I’m doing if we didn’t have the discipline structure in place that probably wouldn’t be happening yeah yeah that probably wouldn’t be able to do you know what build time with fire hey bro yeah let’s let’s let’s let’s give this week and visit so much easier yeah yeah you know what I was going to go gonna hang out today I don’t really want to do this today no we’re doing it yeah I mean we signed up for it yep totally now could it get to a point where say you know what every two weeks we’ve mentioned that before people didn’t like that idea yeah yeah meaning else didn’t like that idea I didn’t like that any better you know why cuz I like that discipline yeah why would you know why cuz I’m basically I’m basically confining myself to doing something productive as opposed to watching YouTube videos yeah about cats because there’s some dignity videos right there’s some good YouTube videos but there’s also a lot of them are not good and you’re not getting anything out of them yes and man the ones that they rack up for you when you’ve just got done watching one yeah the ones that they rack up for you all every single one of them where they rack up I think they rack up four on top and four on bottom on your little screen yeah and every one of them is like a clickbait right every one of them is a quick thing it’s one it’s crazy yeah it’s they do that obvious brilliant yeah because it has a lot to do with everything that you’ve you’ve won for sure so that it’s going to be it’s the next video is always just like it’s a money % relevant to what you specifically one right there and that is why that is what you got to get angry at but you know you know and you have that uh you know how you have that that way that you overcame your anger anger management right but you read that it was like you had low self-esteem that we’re getting mad well when you get that when you get that next rack of YouTube videos staring at you if you should be getting pissed because you know what they’re trying to do they’re trying to get you trying to take your time away from you yeah and by the way they’re making money from you click that next thing they’re making they’re making money from what you’re doing and so they’ve set this system up to make you click that thing yeah so you’re a mark is what you are you am on your marker look at you falling for it everywhere yeah every day that’s how I quit drinking – by the way that is legit like oh I’m falling for a trick that my brain is playing on me I’m falling for that trick won’t fall for that trick that and like I said it’s hard to because it’s mixed in with positive stuff on YouTube there I have really good quality stuff on YouTube there’s some great knowledge you can gain from YouTube for sure and if you’re good at justifying things yeah yeah that’s true – it’s a really scary yeah but my point is I don’t want to just sit here a bag on YouTube because it’s an incredible source of information if you keep it informational but it’s real easy to get sideways on that yeah and they somehow know they can attach like watching a street fight – because I watch street fights or I watch a you know a UFC fighter I’ll watch a clip or I’ll watch a submission ok know how to drag you in you like those clickbait titles of the guy fighting the kangaroo yeah man vs kangaroo unbelievable right and of course you’re thinking yourself ok what would I do if I didn’t find your kangaroo yeah I live in America and I’m not fighting any kangaroos but somehow I got a click on that video to see what up well such garbage so good job YouTube you know and I’m not gonna be a sucker over here nope not it won’t be a mark give yourself a limit yeah see and that goes back to yourself like a click limit on those things yeah or just set your planet right give you some parameters right you won’t it’s it even me thinking about it right now it really after you can explain it there it really puts it into perspective and all the things you ever I mean you’re different than I think I think a lot of people where sometimes people only make plans it’s like they have important stuff something that’s important to do list there’s like 10 things on the list which actually seems like a pretty big to-do list if you think 10 before yeah in one day so you know how many things you do in a day that you can get distracted from a lot of them yeah more than 10 it’s like a lot and I got everything everything from like wet the day you wake up or not the day but the time you wake up what you eat every single time by the way oh oh the TV watcher don’t watch I get air every second of the day if it had a parameter on it and you just laser focus on all your goals instead of these ambiguous in a little movie or I wanted I need to dot an old XYZ more yeah don’t say no thing the plan doesn’t take that much time to put together yeah and how you said it’s it’ll end up saving you time oh for sure it’ll end up in the unaware another will head minutes that you spend planning the next day will save you for hours yeah you can usually get done everything you have to get done in like half the time yeah half the crazy and it’s weird too because I don’t know why I’m not pull out there I don’t want to make it sound like there’s some some people that are really busy yeah I had a single mom she’s got two three kids she got two three jobs yeah she doesn’t you know what she’s listening this conversation going yeah no kid yet okay wanted in YouTube yes she’s in the game 24/7 well not choosing the game 20 because she or she’s sleeping 20 yeah she’s keeping it together yeah and when you say they’re busy but yeah they’re two things to that yeah they’re are busy people you know how does Amanda go get those like the single moms or the single dads they get kinda like what I just said they are in a situation they have no choice in right after it yeah no choice maybe after they’re like oh I’m gonna get this done they got their fam they’re looking at their kid they’re looking at their three-year-old kid that no dad’s three-year-old kid has nothing without that mom getting on the grind and going to the restaurant you know in working as a waitress or whatever or she’s working her job whatever she’s doing ever yes putting it together knows exactly Tuesday three weeks from now I at 4:46 she knows where she’s going to be a she knows exactly where me I mean on come on you know compared to the average person we don’t know and then compared yeah but you’re not even like 100% sure which should be doing in an hour because you know cruising could interlude at any time if you’re going to that cruising is a very ambiguous activity the but then go to the other side of the spectrum of busy people I mean they’re busy because they don’t plan another special major and yeah I’m so busy all the time meanwhile no no productivity you know yeah or very little limited yeah limited true plan your day execute your plan alright last little quote from this this is Frederick the Great the Battle of Colin in 1757 and there were some troops that were read a couple different versions again speaking of rabbit holes you start going down these rabbit holes I read two different versions of this there was either troops that were hesitating to attack or there were troops that were actually retreating and to these troops Frederick the Great said dogs would you live forever and another way that was translated was you cursive Rascals would you live forever and who they say mr t saying that to his own troop right right that are leaving either either hesitating to attack them or their order retreating and he’s saying dogs right yeah clutter the barbarians and yeah not well on them would you live forever know that what you’re looking for to live forever yeah no you shouldn’t be and you know I I think that’s a good way to wrap up that book because like we said those two quotes always do the business of the day in the day so plan or you do and do what you plan and dogs you curse it Rascals would you live forever let me answer that for you no you won’t and we’re here talking about a book we’re talking about a book today we talk about leadership and that’s awesome but you got to start by leading yourself by doing what you say you will do that’s integrity personal integrity when you say that you’re going to do something that they talked about being straight today I talked about personal integrity that starts with yourself by doing what you actually say you are going to do by not hesitating and waiting got a lead yourself so get moving don’t wait do what you plan and do it today because you don’t get to live forever and the clock is ticking and I think that’s all I’ve got for tonight and echo since we are not hesitating right now if you could without hesitation please explain to people how they might be able to support this podcast if they walk too sure of course because we don’t want to live forever that doesn’t actually Conan the Barbarian didn’t say that what he would go is he didn’t say he doesn’t say much and Conan the Barbarian at a few lines but not that much he is girlfriend girl that ends up being his girlfriend then she dies later but whatever oh she said tell me hope when they hesitate or when they’re about to do something nuts she says do you want to live forever than they discharged our okay well there you go come she takes exactly yeah that’s the exact usage anyway speaking of not hesitating so kettlebells let me talk about on it but this kind of is relevant reminded me I kind of mentioned it earlier before we started recording so I hear good things right kettlebells and I’m a little familiar I’ll incorporate them here and there but you know I just hear more and more so I’m like hey I’m gonna make this big part of the you know the routine the program yeah you do kettlebells obviously yes yeah how much dumbbell stuff did you like dumbbell I actually don’t use a lot right belt oh yeah big dumbbell guy yeah like even like bench right there I do it man oh well on my bench like people will say hey how much can you bench yeah I don’t know and not enough that’s my answer it’s aa long time well anyway back to accountable so starting kettlebells but I got and you know you learn the test be careful with kettlebells if you’re doing the kettlebells yeah you know how they say yeah start off like this I’d say with kettlebells more so than it because when you throw a Kelly that thing it’s not a dumbbell is like you grab a dumbbell it has a perfect handle each side of the dumbbells perfectly balanced the same exact way BRAC kettlebell it has a handle that’s on the thing it’ll flip around it’ll break you’re right you can break your hand or when you’re swinging them you know the one that you go on all the terms vary but the one you grab it with a to handle swing yeah kettlebells the basic where the ball sort between your legs yep but I’m like swinging it and like but what if this what if my balance was off or I don’t know whatever and the kettlebell hit my shin a lot of pain bro it can break your shin if you ever should know even if you had like a 62 pounds get over in break you should be careful with that anyway so to make things actually technically they’re not what I got the the on it ones the werewolf you know and the champ and all that and you think when you compare them to the regular kettlebells they’re the kettlebells around right the regular ones and so you’d think oh you know the designer ones with the werewolf they might be kind of awkward because they’re not like perfectly uniform what guess what balanced when they make them yeah so they’re just as safe but so we’re going careful I’m I’m explaining the new emergence of kettlebells in my workout yeah and you like them I like them a lot and the point is don’t hesitate right because you know how you know you could do more kettlebells and be ambiguous goal that’s what it is no parameters but I was like you know what today’s a day I’m going to do I’m gonna this is gonna be the workout yeah so my work I was you know you want numbers I’ll keep you numbers so what I did metcon kettlebells the werewolf’s so those are 62 pounds each add to the double boom so it’s like a B I don’t know if this is an actual kettlebell official movement I think it is you go it’s like a kettlebell swing two of them they’re outside the hips narrow stance up to clean okay you clean it right and then threat and then press it right and then back down Breslau boom boom okay gross yes so I do five reps and then five burpees walk in a circle 35 seconds yeah all right five reps again so I do that six times to click eight minutes eight nine and ten so same as well the maqam but with the kettlebells and this ten of the squat probably it’s weird I used to do that with a bar it’s there’s a lot of little muscles in there that you gotta mix kettlebells good is that the unstable they’re less stable than a barbell yeah and they move awkwardly yeah so you have to use more energy and more strength to keep them under control yeah so it’s working some muscles that you’re not used to a most likely yeah and you’re it’s it’s interesting because you’re using like you can get into this kind of it’s not weird but it is slow of like you know like when it swings down it’s not like oh it doesn’t jerk you down it will if you’re not ready for it but if you kind of know after you get used to it it just flows this like this almost no impact yep kettlebells are good yeah so do that anyway where would you get your cattle goats from I get my kettle bells from on it I only get the corn so actually afterwards and I had a big girl’s going to post it online too but I think yeah you are doing it was less about that at that point you know but when I again the werewolf forms so enjoy Rogen’s on one of the videos on there yeah he kind of mentions is he’s like I like this one because it’s like I think it’s like the gorilla or something like that he’s like it looks at you and it’s like it wants to says you know he says that the gorilla looks like he wants to bite your dick off that’s what he said something long this life but he has a good point like those kettlebells when you’re like man I really don’t want to do this and then they’re just looking at you you know and you’re like thank you walk away you come back and you look at it and it’s still looking at you with the same expression because it’s you know well cuz it’s maybe an object I’m saying it helps yeah you know cuz you get into the workout you know yeah you know especially like how you you’re like it’s a challenge every time anyway do that all right on it support right I guess on a dot-com slash choco 10% on it gets kettlebells alpha brain strong bone yeah krill oil big-time shroom tech yeah so with the krill oil mine didn’t come in yet I slacked it with the wine didn’t come in yet and I’m kinda it’s weird I’m slowly started I’m not messed up I’m not but I’m slowly starting to yeah I think so huh actually want to go you want to let it get out of your system completely that’s not good yeah then you got a reincorporate into it yeah I think it takes about six days yeah in my 50 corporate it took I think five when I start to be like all you know I think it comes in today for the less krill oil the best krill oil straight up is from on it so yeah on accomplished chuckle 10% off if you want that 10% off go slash chocolate yeah good way to support yourself podcast and get after it more efficiently also if you want to check out this book serve to lead will have a post on the website it takes you to Amazon grab these books from there you click through the website that supports podcast really good we’ll be buying these books in eBook we didn’t lose Shashi last week no we did book of five rings last week musashi the novel will be covered in podcast 100 yeah if you are we are going to talk about the whole book it’s a novel so it’s going to be spoilers so if you want to listen to that podcast you got to read that book now it’s a thousand pages long it’s freaking long yes so get the book now so that you can get the satisfaction of the book because it has the most epic ending it’s one of the most epic endings of any books yeah and it’s on the docket podcast com website books drop podcast books they’re all on there also the one you mentioned it today one called mind games the book that I read oh you put that on there didn’t yet the author is Michael Powell here’s the thing it’s not like it’s not like a typical book where it’s like talks about anger management it’s not that it’s it’s literally like there’s little games like mind brain exercises in there you know it’s just everything and they’re really short chapters they’re just little things and that one chapter happened to be about dealing with anger anyway Michael Powell is the author unknown looking I’ll put it on there though legit yeah so yeah anyway Amazon click through basically you click through there boom takes an Amazon it’s a little support thing you know small action big reaction or if you do other shopping on there duct tape duct tape if you will so yeah any shopping really but you know these books that’s a good that’s a real relevant one I think that people um you know they do want to take grab these books and boom they’re on their offer also subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already iTunes stitcher google play whichever one you prefer I think iTunes is the most popular but I see significant references to Google Play in general society you know also a lot of times that your stitcher yeah you know how like a lot of them people they don’t want to go mainstream you know oh yeah it’s like like they’re like you keep it old-school hair on your ground yeah you know it makes sense you know what’s the old saying don’t go with the herd or path let’s travel you know one of the all of the same same deal same deal so I get it google play up but good news is were on all of them rather so go choose your your Avenue also YouTube subscribe to our YouTube channel so we do have you YouTube channel talk about every week but it not only does it have the video version of this podcast has excerpts and deluxe excerpts one of those excerpts that you have enhanced will just say enhance step excerpts also you know what man I have this other idea you know what I’m going to do I want to make little we’ll just say other little videos to doesn’t mean to get bad add value sort of speaking like that well the video is a very compelling form of interaction with people yeah like that’s why that’s why YouTube I think YouTube is like the most searched – website bigger than it’s more search than Google maybe I’m wrong but it’s up there if it’s not number one it’s number two you know if you want to learn something people immediately yes search YouTube yes that’s what and guess what remember the other day we talked about YouTube red yeah I got YouTube red I’ll buy because the ad ads is one thing but also because you can listen to music without it being on the screen it plays in the background like iTunes that is that the mainly yeah now I can get any album that of a lot of music a lot of music that I listen to isn’t on iTunes because it’s old-school it’s hardcore it’s Underground like literally not on there yeah but the YouTube videos up there crazy how do you have video beyond there from some random hardcore band yeah from New York upstate New York and there one album that they made their one EP 5 songs long that came out in 1987 it’ll be on YouTube it’s not anywhere near iTunes yeah it’s on it you can play it which is awesome yeah makes sense I guess they YouTube bread sometimes they’ll put or not something all the time really to read now no because the main selling point ROM is at the album’s without tracks – yeah you like albums with tracks as you’re out without tracks well typically I don’t listen to YouTube for the music situation where I go – you have red you’ll change that yeah maybe I mean red they push it with hey no ads and then I’m like cool no as but man I’m not that quick to jump on the no ads thing I there’s been plenty time so a lot of times with movies but the ads that play I’ll like it’ll be for me directly for me like dang was added along me in a way sometimes yeah ultimate YouTube person that’ll make it quick for next video I’m going to enjoy the advertisement I get the Tai Lopez ads a lot you know that is right Tai Lopez she’s um she’s a super smart guy he’s actually one of the reasons why like I started reading a lot like one of the reasons and so smart guy played his answer all over YouTube right but I know it’s my fault because it’s relevant to what I watch apparently how they do that so it’s my fault but that’s those lads I get times this should you go to college yeah you know what I’m talking about anyway um yeah so yeah subscribe to our YouTube you know got some subscribers on there some good feedback you know I’m gonna keep posting videos it does help that people will say echo post videos in addition to just use requesting peer pressure like that yeah um so yeah subscribe to e to does get a uh also chakra is a store called Yahoo store JA coaster calm on there we have t-shirts if you wear t-shirts you know check them out um if you’re interested in anything on there get something I’m not saying to buy so I’m not saying hey price go to drop cool store come and buy a t-shirt I’m not saying that saying go to jockle store calm there’s some shirts on there some hoodies on there rash guards patches some women’s stuff some tank tops and whatnot travel mugs hats coming soon anyway check them out if you like hats coming soon before yes I’ve been impressed by your turn times on that it just depends on what you think soon well you say soon to me I that made me mean every day’s okay so I grew up in Kauai perhaps okay we’re in from nautical now I’m not saying that far in town I’m not saying that is but that’s not what I’m playing right now okay so quiet in OMA on koi you know why so on the end of a mile road is a I don’t know what it is to church a religious center or something and it says on the top it says Jesus coming soon and that went up when I was I think seven years old so is a relative term very relative yes it’s a sliding scale for sure let me say what hats I hope get here before the return of Jesus yeah if that’s the goal for sure we can make that happen to be awesome alright cuz we got it summertime you know now right now summertime we need hats to wear in the Sun all right to block the Sun yes that’s what have to do yeah gotcha so yeah there it is Jocko store calm if you see something on there that you like you recognize the layers grab something support here’s a little thing Jocko designed a shirt designed specifically 100% too by the way by Jocko I even tried to put my little pinky in there and I’m input yes right up tonight I’m like bro do you know who manages that shirt yet that shit’s not up it’s being printed but you know we went with it and 100% jock was designed 100% not really approved by me I mean it’s approved but like I tried to like make my little considerations my little alterations and observations and you know I was watching out for the alterations I was worried about it my creative my leery overcame them well totally overcame them yeah I don’t mean oh right we’re making this shirt and that’s a direct order exactly would happen yes now you’re yeah you finessed it for sure but at the end of the day I looked up and I was like dang my input on you know the store that you know I think I feel like I’m the manager of the store yeah apparently I’m wrong but that’s cool so anyway new shirt as a result designed by choco chuckle Starcom that’s a good also psychological warfare if you know what that is it’s an album with tracks of chocolate voice saying and telling helping that’s what it’s doing it’s helping people myself included by the way through moments of weakness if they arrive arise alright then right yeah so yes you’re having trouble or one day if you want an alarm clock of me which people asked me for yeah just get psychological warfare and set it as your alone yeah that’s it that’s why we made it because everyone was asking for that so there you have it you don’t need to you don’t need it we’re not going to make a ringtone I don’t think yeah well tell ya technically you just said it as their you just said it as a ringtone or you’re right yeah it’s yeah and it works really good especially that well it depends on your weakness right or what kind of person you are so you know me if you say echo wake up at 4:30 for one year every morning one year there’s going to be a day or two where it’s going to be harder than you know then another day so put on the trash what time do you wake up that’s classified so if you have problems I guess are like we reckon noon I woke up at noon on Saturday okay so on a lion time hit away by noon how could you even do that no I didn’t mean to it I it was it’s a long story but yes my wife was like hey it was good for you to join us or nice dude nice of you to join us you know that wife is ragging on you first yeah until noon Wow credit to her she was just like I got to here to take care of the record sprawled out straight-up mcclure queen-size bed getting after okay not to make a change nonetheless back to psychological warfare if you have you know if you’re on a cool diet you’re eating is clean boom you get that temptation one day at work the donuts you don’t like bring the donors right we talk about these all the time yeah people just do that to Kathy don’t Gracie here on our Wyatt Harlan he talks about um like how you go to a restaurant and they’re like also cute the kids here some you know here’s a cupcake for the ghetto cute right and people like overlook how rude in uh it’s like how much of a violation that is yeah rat poison you can feed them while you’re at it Hey look look how cute your kids are kids let me give them something super unhealthy violation anyway that’s what happens when people bring Donuts for work and think I’m going to do this for the office not that I frown upon that I’m just saying put it into perspective nonetheless if someone does that while you’re at work boom you got a track for that to put it on real quick then your buds you know so it’s for you sugar-coated lashes recruited life directly into here anyway it’s called psychological warfare look at it on or look for it on iTunes chocolate Google Play Google Play mm music all that stuff good stuff wherever the mp3s are being distributed all right also on Amazon you can get jock a white P and here’s a little Van Slyke purchase review again this means that the person is verified yeah it’s a percent so here’s the review as a tea guy I am somewhat picky so I ordered some chocolate tea I’m pretty sure the box was growling when I opened it that’s a verified reviewed up some tea and poured it over ice after which I went onto my bike for training ride I was pulled over twice I explained that I consumed some jock white tea before I left the officer just nodded in said get after it the next officer was not so forgiving and gave me a ticket for speed limit so in summary this to you can get pretty pricey if you don’t mind speeding tickets while you’re riding a bike so that’s just another thing to be careful of if drink jakka white tea and then you get on a bike you’ve got to watch out that you don’t get speeding tickets because you’re going to go a little faster than the speed limit that’s the choco light tea also on Amazon you can get wolf way to warrior kid and this this review here way the warrior kid also verified purchase review from Amazon this is the book I wish I’d read when I was a kid and that’s the same thing I say all the time I work in schools and I’ve already bought a spare copy to lend out to my students I’ve also read it twice myself though I’m 39 year old man side note my pull-ups have also improved so I’m telling you it’s a kids book sure that’s what everyone says that’s you know what it’s it kind of looks like this lesson to national uncle Jake that we all need so we’re the warrior kid you can pick that one up also discipline equals freedom Field Manual you know what this book is about it’s about getting after it mentally and physically simple straightforward so if you want to get after it get the discipline equals freedom field manual not a lot of fluff in there I’m going to tell you that right now not a lot of fluff straight forward of course we got the book extreme ownership it’s the book we refer back to a bunch on here combat leadership for your life for your business for your school for your family for you own it and for your business or your team you can get a special on front leadership manage the consulting to help bring leadership at your team to the next level that is Lafe babban who wrote extreme ownership with me that is JP Danelle that is Dave Burke both those guys have been on the podcast to work both with those both those guys extensively in the battle Ramadi and myself also a Daschle on front so that’s what we do we go into companies and we help you with your leadership info at a salon com if you’re interested also the muster in Austin Texas to live 13th and 14th Omni Barton Creek Resort I think this might be sold out by the time this airs it’s a venue that’s only 300 seats we’ve sold most of them if you don’t get a ticket in time to that check extreme ownership calm see if you can still get a ticket for that one and if you don’t get a ticket in time for that one that’s okay come to San Diego September 14th and 15th for muster 0 0 for that one is also at the Omni Hotel but the one in San Diego lots of folks are coming back to that lots of people that went to the first muster in San Diego are coming back for another go it’s going to be awesome we will see you there and in the meantime if you want to talk to us we are actually upon the interwebs on Twitter on Instagram and we’re going to see that one on the face walking echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko willing and thanks to everyone from listening to the podcast but don’t just listen go out wake up earlier work out harder read more make yourself better a better soldier a better sailor better Airmen or a better marine a better police officer a better firefighter a better paramedic make yourself a better engineer or janitor or waitress or waiter or lawyer or doctor or car mechanic or builder make yourself a better person a better leader every day and as Charlie May said on July 1st 1916 before he went over the top into the raging hell that was the Battle of the Somme he said it is a glorious morning and it certainly is all of them are every morning is glorious so get out there and get after it and until next time this is echo and Jocko out
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