this is jocko podcast number 269 with echo charles and me jocko willing good evening echo good evening and also joining us tonight is dave burke good evening dave good evening the last podcast with leif we covered the first part of this marine corps manual which i don’t even know if it’s yet it’s not really a manual it’s like somebody made this it’s called the squad leader makes a difference and i know who made it actually lieutenant m abalde and lieutenant a m otero they made it at the war the marine corps war fighting lab in august of 1998 and we’re gonna push through the last few pages of this book that we didn’t cover last time but then we’re going to dive deeper into the last example which i actually moved to the end and if you’ve ever wondered where these podcasts come from where my mind is going if you ever wondered how i’m thinking through these things this is an opportunity to follow me down a path of discovery to learn more about leadership to learn more about human nature and about war and about history and about fear and about sorrow and about life and about death it’s an interesting ride and it all starts by picking up where we left off with this this manual the squad leader makes a difference the subtitle is readings on combat at the squad level this book is a book that by its very nature simultaneously establishes and then reinforces a culture of maneuver warfare it enforces that it establishes it it it is decentralized command it’s literally a book about the frontline leaders making a difference and stepping up and leading so here we go we’re going to go back to the book right now this one is sergeant joe hooper u s army vietnam 1968 sergeant joe hooper was a squad leader with d company 2nd battalion 501st infantry 101st airborne division near way city a big salute right now obviously to the second of the 501st it’s awesome in january of 1968 way was captured by the north vietnamese in the ted offensive u s forces fought desperately to liberate vietnam’s ancient imperial city on february 17th the company was assaulting a defended position along a riverbank outside way city when it was attacked by rocket and machine gun fire the company had run into a defensive position manned by two north vietnamese companies in dugout bunkers with the company pinned down by fire sergeant hooper located the source of the enemy fire he rallied his squad and attacked across the river he overran several enemy bunkers this bold maneuver inspired the rest of the company to join the attack during this attack some of sergeant hooper’s squad had been wounded he ran out into the open to retrieve them but was seriously wounded himself sergeant hooper refused medical treatment and returned to his men enemy fire continued to hamper the attack sergeant hooper led his squad through the bunkers and buildings clearing a path for the company and mortally wounding a north vietnamese officer when his squad came under direct fire from a building to their front sergeant hooper assaulted the building himself and killed the enemy with grenades and rifle fire upon reaching the final line of the north vietnamese defenses sergeant hooper destroyed four bunkers by running the length of the position tossing grenades into each of the dugouts the enemy soldiers began to withdraw from their positions sergeant hooper then led his squad in destroying the last two vietnamese bunkers with white phosphorus grenades after the last pocket of resistance was eliminated sergeant hooper organized his unit into defensive positions when the remainder of his company had caught up sergeant hooper allowed himself to have his wounds treated sergeant hooper played a major role in defeating a large force of north vietnamese d companies attack forced the withdrawal of north vietnamese reinforcements attempting to enter the city the at this action outside the city weakened the nva defenders inside way easing pressure on the besieged city and leading to the eventual liberation of the imperial capital and oddly enough it doesn’t talk about him receiving the the medal of honor or anything after he’s charging bunkers by himself that’s just i guess that’s just what we’re doing lessons sergeant hooper displayed exceptional leadership his endurance despite being wounded served as an example to his squad and his company after taking initiative to assault across the river sergeant hooper squad assumed the role of the company’s main effort and spearheaded the attack his exceptional courage under fire inspired the remainder of the company sergeant hooper’s combat decisions and tactical leadership at the squad level contribute contributed to his company’s success in this bitter fight with the north vietnamese attempt to reinforce the city halted other forces were able to clear the city this is um obviously this is the kind of initiative this is the kind of bias for action that the marine corps talks about all the time this is the kind of initiative that we try and train leaders to have at every level that they are going to make things happen that’s what we want and they’ve followed up this quote i’ve actually we actually hit this quote before but i’m going to hit it again we covered it a while ago on podcast 62 ardent depict his book battle studies listen to this though listen to this and think about this four brave men who do not know each other will not dare to attack a lion four less brave men but knowing each other well sure of their reliability and consequently of mutual aid will attack resolutely there is the science of the organization of armies in a nutshell when i was in south africa and i went down to south africa and we worked with some companies down there and i heard that they wasn’t in this context but they were talking about how back in the day the the african tribes would hunt lions with spears but they would say you know be like three or four guys that would be able to take a lion because they could maneuver in from different angles and they could eventually kill the lion and this was after the conversation that i don’t know if you know this in south in africa there’s no lions living out in the wild they’re all in these they’re in these big giant game reserves which are like the wild but they’re not in the wild why is that because then you have freaking lions roaming around killing people i mean you’re no match for a lion no match but if you’ve got some friends three friends for i mean if you think about the okay what are the odds if you were to do this the odds of a human beating a lion in a fight what are the odds what do you know like it is not it’s almost zero how is it how is a human gonna kill a lion in a fight right okay okay you give him a spear he has some kind of a chance but it ain’t good when a freaking lion’s coming at you that thing’s gonna just it’s a slaughter yeah but as soon as you got some friends and you can make some maneuvers now you can not only can you win you are confident enough that you do it on a regular basis that’s decentralized command that’s not only decentralized command that’s what a good team is a good team what does he call it the the the if you’re sure of the mutual aid if i know you got my back that’s the strength of the team i like how he he used the phrase and that quote the science of organizations and you think of science you think of like all this research and all this analysis and all the things right you know what the science of organizations i got relationships yeah i got you i got your back that’s the science that’s all you you need to know uh i think that that quote that word actually i wrote that down because that that rung loudly of there’s actually it’s not it’s not complicated this is not complicated you have to have someone that you trust yeah if you trust that person you’ll do so much more with someone with just one other person that you trust than what you do as a on your own yeah and before i jumped on and completed your sentence for you you were gonna say relationships right and i was already in the combat mode if i got your back because that’s you know what do you you don’t you don’t tell uh a lance corporal hey you need to build a relationship no you say you got to make sure they got your back right but if you’re talking to a business which is what we do it’s hey you got to make sure you’re building good relationships you got to make sure that they know they’re going to give you that support that mutual aid if you need it that’s what we’re doing and if we have that we’re unstoppable if we have that three of us can take a lion corporal gregory corporal gregory was a squad leader this is vietnam 1971 u s marine corps corporal gregory was a squad leader assigned to the first combined unit pacification platoon 3rd battalion 1st marines the unit was the northernmost marine unit in vietnam corporal gregory’s combat experience had made him an extremely proficient infantry leader he placed strong emphasis on training in the field where wait back in the rear where they had plenty of time to train no in the field he played strong emphasis on training in the field he took every chance to conduct opportunity training with his marines there were numerous duties required of corporal gregory’s squad each day corporal gregory assembled the squad and instructed them in a single practical infantry skill i’m gonna say that again every day well they got all these duties got all these news and the reason i’m saying this is we hear this all the time from companies we didn’t really have time to train so so guess what no one has time to train and if you think that this marine corporal in the field has quote time to train you’re wrong so what does he do every day he assembles the squad and instructs them in a single practical infantry skill how long does that take ten minutes five minutes seven minutes while in a patrol base corporal gregory instructed his men in such skills as helicopter medevacs close air support and call for fire corporal gregory required that his squad members continue their professional development every day after returning from patrols corporal gregory’s squad would work on their marine corps institute correspondence courses pfc kirby a member of corporal gregory squad finished the marine corps nco mci in the field in vietnam in the field in vietnam corporal gregory took the initiative to train his marines and the skills required by his unit’s mission and environment his training exceeded the basic requirements established by the marine corps and created a squad that was particularly well prepared for combat the corporal used scenario-based training to run his men through multiple repetitions of probable combat situations he made sure that each marine in his squad understood their commander’s intent their role in the mission and how each man affected the outcome of events during battle corporal gregory is freaking squared away and by the way everything that i’m saying right now apply it to what you’re doing in your company in your business think of think of how much you could do to help how much you could do to train your people not because you’ve got two weeks allocated to train your personnel but because you got 20 minutes to review with them how this product works or how this piece of equipment functions or what to do in an emergency situation or how to handle a client it was not long before corporal gregory’s training proved vital on the night of february 14 1971 corporal gregory and his unit came under every heavy attack corporal gregory was killed yet because the squad was so well trained and understood what it had what had to be done the squad was able to meet the challenge and skillfully engage the enemy corporal gregory’s exemplary leadership in the weeks prior to the attack had prepared his marines for this firefight the enemy was repulsed and the squad held its position in the morning over 30 dead nva were found in the area surrounding the squad’s position every marine in the squad realized that it was corporal gregory’s training emphasis that had won the battle and saved their lives lessons corporal gregory displayed outstanding initiative in training his marines he assumed the responsibility for preparing his marines for the demands of combat this training greatly exceeded the established standards of the marine corps which by the way are no no low standards and directly contributed to the combat success and survival of the unit after corporal gregory’s death corporal gregory you and by the way if they ended up with 30 dead nva over 30 dead nva that was a big force that attacked his unit corporal gregory used whatever time was available to instruct his marines and hone their professional skills this aggressive opportunity opportunity training was necessary because few units could conduct formal training in the combat zone i talked about this on ef online the other day i absolutely learned more from informal training than i did from formal training during my time in the navy without question it’s not even close if you were to remove all the informal lessons i learned i would be an idiot do you find that the formal training is like kind of sorts itself out to be more valuable early on explain so like you know how you have like basic training right that’s where you learn like all the the formal protocols where everyone has to essentially do the same thing under very similar circumstances and then the informal training seems to and i’m totally just thinking about jiu jitsu right now and at work i guess where when you get informal training that’s when you’re trained up on all the basics it’s kind of like college in a way you know you have like all these prerequisites like hey you guys all got to know this this this this and know it good and then later on then maybe we’ll send you out to a specific company or whatever to learn kind of what they do and then you can start to apply these things in specific situations i think the example to use would be let’s say you went to some kind of a technical school like being a doctor being a mechanic being a air conditioning repairman you’re going to learn some technical stuff in the classroom yeah but when do you really get good it’s doing the job it’s when some it’s when someone pulls you aside and says oh yeah when you see this here’s the problem right when you when you when you go here here’s what you need to do when you see this symptom from a patient here’s what’s actually happening it’s all that informal training that and maybe i’m wrong about doctors because i don’t know what medical school is like but i can only imagine that you get a heck of a lot better by once you’re in the field and you’re doing surgeries and someone says hey here’s a better way here’s the technique you need to use you know something like that yeah yeah it’s like you know huh you i think it was a it was a book you were reading a long time ago where where they’d have a name shoot it might have been might have been one of our guests i don’t know but they’d have a name for the people who don’t do i think it was in the army where they don’t do it they just do all the theory and they call them something like nerds or something uh i don’t know anyway but yeah there’s the people who know and they essentially they know what to do and what the protocols are in a vacuum yeah but once you start when you get out out there in the field in the real world kind of thing that’s where that informal like no this isn’t by the book over here you got to watch out for this because and there’s also a difference between just learning from experience which is hey i did this operation here’s some mistakes that i made and all and that’s just experience classroom is classroom i’m talking about in between where you’re you know someone’s pulling you inside and say hey jonco when you start to see this develop that’s not a good call here’s a call that would be better to make and here’s why it’s not formal training it’s my platoon chief telling me something yeah it’s my lpo my leading petty officer saying hey hey new guy here’s what you need to do when you see that unfolding and you go okay roger that it’s not formal training but that’s where you learn and it’s not just experience either experience alone would take you way longer yeah yes than informal training like how many okay jiu jitsu example here you learn the arm lock now we’re rolling yeah and you try and arm lock me and i say hey echo if you if you don’t squeeze your knees together it’s real easy to get out here put look give me your arm boom oh yeah you feel that try and pull your arm up oh i can’t oh okay yeah that’s because it’s all because i’m squeezing my knees okay look the instructor guarantee the instructor said squeeze your knees yeah but you need that informal assessment of your actual situation to realize oh i i see what i need to do yeah exactly right that’s exactly what i was thinking too did you jets uh was the i mean you have to get informal training once you’re in the once you’re done with the rag yeah i think just how you described it the the you talk about like being on site or being in the field or doing it like that you talked about even just the air conditioner repair man what that looks like the way you described what life would be like if all we ever did was formal training you’d have no context for anything you wouldn’t even know how it applies so i think that’s true in in certainly in my case in in aviation i don’t think it’s any different like everything is taught by the book everything is formal training in the beginning it’s all these things and the minute you get the airplane to get up in the sky and you are feeling things in a different way it’s really hard to apply them because you learned it on the ground and the context of the informal hey hey listen look do you see that yeah yeah that’s what it means in the book when it says this that’s what it looks like and go oh man i would never be able to understand that from reading it in a book they have to train you have to get a translation yeah you do translations you have to be able to see and feel it and that will not happen in formal training it’s important to realize if you have some experience and you have people that are on your team the amount of knowledge that you can transfer to them is so valuable and and the reason i’m pointing this out is because a lot of times you forget that right you think you’ve been doing this for a long time you don’t think it’s a big deal hey this is just what you do you don’t you you forget you forget that you’ve learned all this but taking that and saying hey hey hey hey pal come over here let me show you something let me show you how this works let me show you a better way to do that let me show you a little trick it’s very powerful not to mention when you invest in people like that for 10 minutes for 10 minutes you’re helping them and you’re building that relationship which is what this whole thing is that we’re talking about yeah and i wrote down while you’re talking that telling that story of that corporal is i just wrote down i always take notes that’s all i do in this podcast i just take notes i take these things home and i write them down and i keep them and i find places where they apply and as you know they apply everywhere and this this idea of this guy training his people is actually the best thing he can do to take care of them it’s the best thing he can do it’s the best thing any leader can do to help them not give you a break or not give you free time and yeah of course there’s a balance there but the best thing he could do is prepare them to be in a position and i think the reason that stuck with me is that when we talk about decentralized command which we talk about all the time in business the scenario that always plays out is the reason why decentral one of the reasons why decentralized command is so important is that your people have to know what to do when you’re not around that’s pretty obvious but the scenarios are usually you’re on vacation you’re on a different shift you’ve got the day off not that you’re dead so when you kind of think of it in these contexts of what he was doing is being able to prepare them to be successful without him being around is in the worst possible situation if of literally him dying in that situation is the best thing he can do so so the same thing doesn’t happen to them is train them even if it’s five minutes at a time is that’s how he kept those guys alive and that is something that you can you can translate to almost any situation yep your family you know we talk about this in the code the protocol the evaluation it’s like hey what can you do your family can you give your family five minutes of training to pass on knowledge that you have more lessons here corporal gregory realized that combat is a dynamic environment which takes a heavy toll on leaders within an infantry company he trained his subordinates to be able to assume his role this saved the lives of his men during the chaos of battle after his death the men of corporal gregory’s squad performed well performed well because they had confidence in their training and in themselves a confidence that was instilled by corporal gregory’s leadership you know when we were talking when we talk about confidence how do you get confidence your confidence do work you get confidence by doing something get confidence by doing something not doing it well doing it again doing a little bit better doing it again doing it even better that’s where confidence comes from that’s where it should come from otherwise it’s false confidence maybe i should just stop talking because the way he that was written in the book was a lot better than the way i said it but well here’s what’s really cool so they have a if we he mentions he mentions uh uh kirby in this pfc kirby a member of the of corporal gregory squad that finished this uh nco mci in the field well i have a quote from him not from vietnam but from 1998 and now sergeant major r b kirby said the very worst night of my tour in vietnam when we were involved in a major firefight and we were losing marines our squad survived as a result of the corporal’s training we are alive today because of him next one corporal abals british army falklands 1982 in 1982 argentina invaded the falklands falkland islands in the south pacific south atlantic ocean the islands had been british territory since british days as an imperial power not willing to give up its territory britain sent a task force to the islands in order to reclaim them after an amphibious assault british forces pushed their way across the islands the second battalion of the parachute regiment known as tupera of the british army was ordered to attack the argentinian forces of goose green it was to be the first pitched battle between british and argentinian forces the land bridge between goose green and the town of darwin was the only way for forces to move between east falkland island and lafonia island if tupera could not break through to goose green the british would have to spend valuable time mounting another amphibious assault of the falkland islands corporal abals was a section leader equivalent to a squad leader in a company tupera a company’s mission was to attack along the battalion’s eastern flank and assault the town of darwin on the night of 27 may 1982 tupera attacked goose green the argentinians were well prepared for the attack and the paratroopers could advance only yards at a time as the sun rose the battalion was left in a precarious position tupera was stalled pinned down in the open by argentinian mortar and machine gun fire a company was trapped in a crossfire between the argentinians on goose green and those in darwin this is a nightmare scenario you’re in a crossfire receiving both mortar and machine gun fire realizing that the trap could only be broken by persistent aggressive action corporal of balls decided to continue to lead his squad in assaulting enemy positions seeking to break the deadlock himself the commanding officer of tupera charged a machine gun nest and was shot dead the commander of a company kept the event quiet not wanting to demoralize the troops whose predicament seemed to worsen at this critical point in the attack at that moment corporal balls led an assault upon an argentinian position he decided to fire a 66 millimeter shoulder launched anti-tank rocket into the bunker the penetration of this rocket caused such a magnificent explosion which was followed by silence the first flags have surrendered then began to surface from the argentinian positions the argentinians had been demoralized by the utter destruction of this single bunker and the ruthlessness of corporal abal’s resolve this allowed a company to turn its full attention toward goose green momentum gathered behind the british attack in the next 24 hours two para opened the route to lafonia island corporate ball’s persistent aggressiveness had broken the will of the defenders this action proved to be pivotable pivotal in a company’s attack two para two pairs victory at goose green assured a british victory for the falkland campaign lessons corporal abal’s squad level action effectively turned the tide of the battle at goose green this is this is an example of how an aggressive tactical action can have effects out of all proportion to the size of the action his command decisions fully supported both his company and battalion commander’s intent his spectacular assault of that particular bunker affected the morale of both sides crushed the spirit of the argentinians and passed the initiative and momentum to british forces and proved to be the action needed to continue the british advance after this action argentinian soldiers began to surrender rather than die in combat one person a corporal makes one move and it changes the the the the tide of this battle by the way moments after his commanding officer was killed heroically assaulting a machine gun nest corporal ball’s courage leadership and determination propelled him to persevere and achieve decisive results in extricating his unit from a desperate situation when all else fails perseverance prevails and if you want more on the falkland islands podcast 88 excursion to hell sergeant david c freeman u s army vietnam 1966 during operation crazy horse and pay attention to that name operation crazy horse we’re going to go deep in the vin fan valley in june of 1966 a company of montanyard troops led by special forces advisors landed at lz monkey for a search and destroy mission sergeant freeman a member of the command element was the fourth senior man in the unit soon after landing the company attacked and secured a bunker complex the company suffered some casualties and a helicopter medevac was requested the company moved back to lz monkey with their wounded at the lz the company began receiving heavy small arms fire the command element around sergeant friedman was devastated the situation demanded rapid action sergeant freeman grabbed a radio and took command of the company he called in helicopter gunships coordinated supporting arms and reorganized his defenses the helicopter pilots flying above the battle were amazed at his coolness under fire under sergeant freeman’s competent command the perimeter held all night and the enemy eventually withdrew stepping up lessons sergeant freeman a well-trained nco was prepared to lead his company in combat he knew the techniques and procedures for air support supporting arms medevac and company defensive positions and they kind of rattle that off and and one thing that the marine corps does really good in this manual is they hit on the fact that you got to have the skills you got to have these fundamental skills of combat leadership that the technical and tactical skills of combat leadership meaning how to call for air support how to call for supporting arms how to call for artillery how to call for medevac these are technical skills that you have to have and they reinforce that throughout this book so if you’re in a leadership position you think well you know i’m not gonna have to do that no actually you better you better you better go and dig in and figure out how to do these things in addition to his technical knowledge he was able to match these abilities with strong leadership and cool competence in the face of disaster because of his experience and situational awareness sergeant freeman knew that rapid action was required once again what do we see we see someone that’s taking action he immediately took control of the situation making decisions and issuing orders and extricated his company from a perilous situation and here’s a little klaus wits on war which we haven’t covered yet it’s sort of one of those ones is it like uh not playing the obvious one you know we haven’t done that one yet the end for which a soldier is recruited armed and trained the whole object of his sleeping eating drinking and marching is simply that he should fight at the right place and at the right time check all right now here we go here we go so this section that i’m about to read actually came earlier in the manual and i pulled it out and i put it at the end this is the last one of these examples and and there’s a reason why and it immediately struck me when i saw it so the title of this section is just sergeant first class u s army vietnam 1966 so soon as i read that i was kind of surprised because all the other ones they give the person’s name something and why why why aren’t they saying this guy’s name this is a top secret mission well no this is 1998 there was no no more secret missions so why aren’t we explaining this it becomes obvious when i read it why they just called this individual sergeant first class so here we go in may of 1966 sea company of 1st battalion 12th cavalry first cavalry division established a mortar firebase at lz hereford in the wing fan valley so this is actually part of and i’ll get into this this is part of that earlier operation that we mentioned the position was 150 meters long and 40 meters wide the upper slope was covered in six foot high elephant grass the mortar section was led by a sergeant first class no name given his position lay on a hill which had previously been occupied by viet cong gorillas he formed his men in a weak perimeter we’re not off to a good start arranged in a u-shape with the curve facing uphill and set up the mortars in order to provide support for the company the main body of the company went off to patrol the valley below leaving the 22-man mortar section to defend their own position the men fired off a few rounds to seat their base plates the sergeant decided to give the men a break and did not order anyone to dig in or examine the area around the perimeter no security patrols were sent out the men lounged ate sea rations and walked around in the open in the jungle heat it seemed like a day at the beach at 13 30 an enemy machine gun opened up at a range of 50 meters from the elephant grass uphill of the mortar position a 200-man unit of vc had been waiting to ambush the lax mortar unit machine gun fire was followed by rifle fire and grenade attacks the rest of the company which had gone down the hill on patrol the rest of the company took 35 minutes to rush back to the devastated mortar position the enemy had withdrawn and left only a handful of dazed survivors the failure of the sergeant to properly lead his unit enforce basic security measures or prepare for enemy contact led directly to disaster with its support element eliminated the company was not able to establish its patrol mission which in turn negatively affected the battalion’s mission in the vin than valley so i read that and of course i think about okay what does this mean and they hadn’t given away any names right so they didn’t give this guy’s name but they had given away a date may of 1966 they’d given away the lz lz hereford so i start to do some research and it turns out that this battle this specific battle was written about in a book on vietnam called battles in the monsoon and this is an how to print book but i was really curious what happened wait what happened so i found this out of print book ordered it and the book battles in the monsoon is a book full of basically a bunch of short little stories and this particular story this particular section in this book about this battle is called men facing death so let’s hear a little bit more detail about this situation by the way this is all operation crazy horse by the night of 21 may the battle of vinthan valley appeared to be slowing to a stop with the enemy fractionalized and everyone running for cover l landing zone hereford that well worked over slope where the initial explosion has occurred had occurred and i’m skipping to this specific they give a little bit of background this lz hereford had been used a bunch it looked like one of the safest places in the fire zone such had been the constant the consistency of armed traffic in and out of it so this was a lz that was getting used all the time that was about how colonel john j hennessey thought of it when he decided on a special mission for charlie company first of the 12th for the following morning it was a courteous gesture the main object being to return charlie company to its parent battalion but before doing so hennessy planned to ask a small favor in return the company under captain don f warren a taciturn georgian who had been with his same unit since winning his gold bars in 1961 this guy’s been in the same unit since for five straight years he was on the perimeter in hill on hill 766 several ridges beyond hereford the airline distance was about 3000 meters hennessey directed warren to sweep back over the high ground to hereford after sunup unworried about that passage he was most concerned that charlie company should reconnoiter the lower slopes beyond the landing zone which thus far no one had prowled that task done it could rejoin the battalion in the valley not far away hennessey had no reason to be suspicious he was merely being cautious the ground around hereford had not been worked over carefully for several days captain jack cummings and alpha company were in perimeter on the landing zone at this same hour they were not left holy they were left they were not left wholly undisturbed but the occasional sniper rounds and grenades that innocuously bitten to their ground were attributed to enemy stragglers so there’s a company there they’re getting hit occasionally but there’s just a bunch of stragglers is what they’re assuming alpha company needed to be back so they send in charlie company word of that was a foot and that reached major charles seiler at the on at on k shortly after hennessy gave his order the division’s public information officer was entertaining a visitor and a weighing problem all his own belatedly drawn by the news that operation crazy horse was racking up a score war correspondent sam caston a 32 year old senior editor of look magazine had just arrived in camp pursuing a theme worthy of hemingway casting was the only correspondent drawn to the battle he said to seiler i wish to know the thoughts of men facing death so that’s what this war correspondent says sam caston seiler voiced an honest doubt that the quest was logical men’s fears and reflections not being all of one kind this and the soldier hardly knowing how he thinks about death until he feels he is dying it is just not the subject that makes for easy talk among combat men so that’s kind of weird right we got this this reporter saying hey i want to go get some men facing death at the time general norton had put the on k position on semi-alert and the whole camp was a stir sciler and his staff were in the bunkers around the press camp realigning some of the sandbags you don’t have to worry about this ground tonight said castin i’m the luckiest reporter alive wherever i go nothing happens so even this guy who’s looking for problems he’s got that attitude where i’m gonna go look for problems i’m not gonna find them seiler remembered the words thinking them slightly ironic in view of what casting was looking for this guy wants to go find people facing death but then he says hey don’t worry about there going to be any problems because i’m so lucky that nothing’s going to happen there’s a big hill not far from here where a lot of men have died in the last few days he said then i want to get up there first thing in the morning said castin and by the way i intend to follow the subject all the way through see the coffins in which you place the bodies we put them in rubber bags said seiler grumley hoping to close the conversation but casting continued to fret about getting up to hereford soon after dawn syler broke off work to arrange for castin’s certain departure these were the circumstances which resulted in caston being delivered to hereford by the same helicopter that carried ammunition coffee and a hot breakfast to cummings and alpha company his first hours were unrewarding that the unit was too busy stacking supply equipment for an early getaway to talk with casting about death besides the morning was disarmingly fair and quiet warren and charlie company charlie company meanwhile were beating their way along the ridge on the way back from hill 766 having broken camp at 100 a fairly wide trail runs for the top of the scarp for the entire distance so fast forward a little bit alpha company was lifted from lz hereford when charlie company arrived at high noon casting stayed on the landing zone warren talked briefly to lieutenant colonel ruff rutland p beard jr the battalion commander and his s3 major role it was arranged that warren and the main body of the company would continue their stroll downslope through the trees and across the river now i just want to call out these words it was arranged because we’re going to get some more information so you’ve got the you’ve got the battalion commander talking to the company commander and they come to this is what it says it was arranged that warren and the main body of the company would continue through the stroll through the downslope through the trees and across the river the mortar platoon would remain on hereford to cover its further advance with the with fire from the 81 millimeter tube so now you can see where we’re going the sergeant first class of the mortal platoon that we talked about from the squad leader makes a disc difference this is the guy this is the guy the platoon 22 strong was led by sergeant robert l kirby a 29 year old negro from los angeles slight of frame solemn faced kirby is rated one of the stoutest hearted fighters in his brigade so that’s a little different right now we’re now we’re calling this guy one of the stouted stoutest hearted fighters in the brigade but in this in the in the reflections from the manual he’s you know not going to do a good job and by the way he’s going to get left with 22 people and a mortar platoon which is again we’ll dive more into that fewer numbers his men seeming seemed sufficiently armed each carried 300 more rounds for their m16s and from two or four from two to four hand grenades the one heavy weapon was the 81 millimeter mortar for which kirby had only 18 rounds that with the tube was as much weight as the men could carry so sufficiently armed is an interesting way of saying it because we know that an m16 with 300 rounds an m16 is fine a mortar is fine but if you get into a legitimate gunfight there’s something that you need called a machine gun and you need a few of them and they don’t have any not good moreover it had been agreed that as promptly as the descending company passed beyond the range of the platoon that the platoon would be lifted out by chopper alpha company had a hundred or so mortar rounds behind kirby reckoned he would not need them caston the the reporter had decided to stay on hereford instead of moving with the company column it’s an interesting decision it’s an interesting decision because if you would think if you’re looking for to get in the fight you would oh they’re going to go with it i’m sitting on this kind of lz we’re kind of it’s almost like a little bit secure and these guys are going to go on patrol i would probably think i’d go on patrol casting for whatever reason he says he decides to stay up there on hereford and it’s kirby the sergeant who says it will happen here if anywhere uh no sorry that’s casting that says to kirby it will happen here if anywhere like that we’re gonna get in combat and kirby says about that you’re dead wrong and he honestly felt that way though as he looked about what he saw of his position hardly warranted such assurance it was all wrong from any reason to tactical view so now this is kirby he he’s looking at the situation even though he says yeah it’s not going to happen here he knows it’s all wrong from a tactical perspective the landing zone at hereford was by then a burned off trampled and rumpled rebel strewn about the size of a professional basketball court running lengthwise down the edge of a ridge it scorched earth and grasses were less apparent than the foxholes distributed more or less evenly around the oval shaped perimeter originally these had been enemy spider holes and were subsequently enlarged by american occupancy the trouble was that kirby did not have enough men to round out his holding so the position became a u pointed a u pointed up up slope and again this is where’s there’s that you can see the similarity here from from the manual the uphill open end fronting toward the high ground was not covered by weapons present since the platoon was sighting its pieces downslope the company having gone that way and weapons platoon so they have a u-shape and they’re like well the platoon went that way so we don’t really need to have much there and that’s where he decided to put light and not any any protection in that direction in neither direction was the prospect of a fight was a prospect good if a fight was to be forthcoming there was beauty everywhere but there was beauty everywhere for to sue the eye upslope and bordering the very edge of the defended ground was a sea of elephant grass standing six to eight feet tall downhill there was a sheer and rocky precipice extending 30 feet and giving away to an extension in the field of tall grasses which also invested the flanks greenness was all about except where the men looked to their weapons the company took off down so now here goes the company the company took off down the steep clutching to the rocks creepers and creepers for balance no prep no preparatory artillery fires or air strikes had been put on the slopes around hereford because of warren’s movement the earlier presence of alpha company and the all-round feeling that crazy horse operation was slowing to a halt this operation been going on for a pretty long period of time there’s been all kinds of activity they didn’t feel like they needed to do any preparatory fire for this patrol kirby worried less about his platoon than about the movements and enterprise of castin the reporter the men had gone to ground the correspondent was moving from position to position standing erect taking photographs and asking numerous questions wanting to protect castin he did not know how to object his freewheeling though he realized that his movements were describing the limitations of the force in fact these things little mattered casting was enjoying himself hugely he asked kirby how do you how do you feel about these things kirby answered if you think you’re going to get a story out of this platoon you’re wrong nothing will happen here casting continued with his rounds of the perimeter snapping pictures and asking the men how do you feel kirby lost interest and cast and kept moving the position of the mortar of one mortar was near the bottom of the sloped lz just inside the u where the crew had dug a little pit at approximately 1300 the platoon began supporting the descending company with the fire of the 81 millimeter mortar the range 800 meters it takes a while to hack through the jungle captain warren got kirby on the radio and told him bring it closer which kirby tried to do so now you got the platoons up there they’re dropping mortars in front of the platoon that’s that’s driving through the jungle an hour later warren called kirby again this time the message was an uplift said warren choppers are incoming to take you out within 30 minutes so they’re just about done so just to recap you’ve got the platoon you’ve got the mortar platoon in this landing zone you’ve got a the rest of the company pushed down the hill and they’re just on a patrol and eventually they’re so far away that there’s no point in the mortar platoon being up there anymore so now helicopters are going to come grab them and take them out 30 minutes that was what warren and kirby both thought but the choppers had put down at landing zone savoy hennessey’s command post in the valley just to make certain orders that the orders given still stood from their delay wholly unfaltable came rocking general jack norton rocking the high command rocking us all kirby got off his 17th mortar round in support of the advancing company that being the last one he fired remember they had 18 rounds he just fired a 17th round then the thing happened there was no advance warning sergeant louis buckley and pfc wade taste were still collecting the company water cans and other materiel for the flight moving carelessly in the open even as was correspondent castin the other men including kirby stayed put in their foxholes that they did so was less a sign of their alertness than of their forthcoming operational routine once lodged in position they had not moved to scout its surroundings the long trek via the jungle trail had half had them half bushed so they’re tired over much of the distance they had to move they were crouching because the tiny overhang there was no shade where they were sprawled the sun beat directly down on them and it was not less than 100 degrees the word was passed from hold a hole that they were returning to home base nothing much else not even the eccentric movements and questions of cast and interested them the hour must have been about 13 30 from upslope and from not more than 50 yards away came a f came the fire of a heavy machine gun its bullet stream was dead on the mortar the first rounds ripping through the tube as if the weapon had already been zeroed in thereafter it beat directly on the mortar put pit with never a pause so came kirby’s first warning that he was engaged he yelled out fire but it was superfluous though he did not know it being too close to the mortar a split second before kirby had reacted his own men had started the fight on the left of the inverted u it would have been the right flank had these men been facing uphill whence the fire was specs four paul jay harrison and charles stuckey had seen three enemy skirmishers moving in through the elephant grass not five meters beyond their foxholes their m16s their m16 fire signal detection of movement to which the enemy machine gun instantly responded as swiftly as those three weapons spoke from the elephant grass on three sides of the perimeter rifle fire cracked and kirby sensed that his position was almost totally enveloped so he gets the feeling that we’re surrounded he yelled to his radio man spec for john f spranza call company get them back we’re being hit as the message was relayed to captain warren and as he remembered it the words were come back we’re being hit though the main body moving through the jungle was too far down the slope to get the sounds of the fight warren had his movement of agony had his moment of agonized shock and that’s an interesting tidbit a moment of agonized shock almost as if he may have expected that this would happen he knew kirby as a thoroughly brave soldier and this is the unnamed person from from the manual too steady too seasoned to be stampeded by a little random fire when he called for help the thing had to be fully desperate the confidence between the white captain from georgia and the negro sergeant from california was complete so these guys had trust wasting not an instant warren called back on the radio to lieutenant robert mcclellan of first platoon bringing up the rear of the far stretch column get your ass back up that hill all hands reversed and started scrambling upward men clutching at rocks tearing tearing their palms on thorn vines sliding falling and panting in desperate effort to race up the steep all did not fully understand the reason why there was no attempt to observe security and had they been without knowing moving into an ambush the disaster that too soon followed could have been even greater far above them on the slope of hereford men who still moved crouched below to escape the sheet of fire beating from all sides most of kirby’s men had died in the first 10 minutes though he did not know that yet the return fire from his people grew steadily fainter sergeant isaac johnson a 27 year old negro had been sitting with a plat board at the mortar pit when the fight began he heard someone yell they’re coming out of the woods in his agitation he tried to turn the mortar around a fired up hill not even noticing that it had been drilled through the incoming fire was too great and his strength too little so he slithered up on his belly to the left flank and dropped into a foxhole upslope he could see 40 to 50 men at a run out of the trees into the elephant grass where he lost sight of them they were partially camouflaged and their shirts were of all colors looking down hal hill he saw many more of the enemy moving through the grass some crawling others hunched over firing as they moved in it came to him as a sudden idea that he should fire too he thought he he thought as he fired he had dropped at least four enemy skirmishers with his m16 so by the way i mean we’re already talking about a totally outnumbered force this in one flank he sees 40 or 50 bad guys from the next foxhole above him pfc henry benton and joe l tamayo were alternately firing up slope and downhill yelling as they pulled the trigger johnson saw his last of them when he ran out of ammunition and crawled back to the mortar pit in search of a magazine inside the pit there were fir four men heads down the enemy machine gun and at least two automatic rifles were bearing directly on the hole and smashing its rim johnson could not be sure whether the men were ducking or dead sergeant buckaloo paul buckaloo 22 years in the army was having his first go in combat the opening barrage cracked him wide open he bolted straight across the perimeter vanished into the elephant grass and was never heard from again sergeant johnson couldn’t find his spare magazine so he picked up an m16 with 15 rounds in it from the dead hand of sergeant edward shepard who had no business being there that afternoon though he ranked kirby and might have taken command he was overdue to be lifted out by chopper for an appearance before a promotion board so he passed up the honor and died inconspicuously from a bullet through his brain another longtime soldier under fire for the first time he had stayed motionless petrified by personal terror as boundless as the horror exploding all about him his 15 bullets gone johnson crawled toward the mortar pit screaming come out you’ll all be killed there was no response it was minutes too late for that the hole held four corpses heads bashed in by bullet fire in the nearby hole with kirby was another bloody welter a rocket the russian-made p-40 round of so slow of motion that the eye easily follows the trajectory came arcing in dead center of the mark kirby saw it in flight and yelled watch out so did his foxhole mates spec for austin l drummond and david s crocker who cried warning in the same place split second before any man could move the rocket exploded just to the left of the hole crocker died instantly from a shard that crushed in his skull drummond took heavy fragments in the left arm and left egg leg such gouts of blood spouted from him that kirby who had taken four pieces of steel in his head but remained conscious knew that drummond couldn’t could not last long in physical torment drummond tried to rise kirby pulled at him drummond screamed let me go i’m hurting hurting kirby pulled him down within a minute he died under kirby’s body blood from kirby’s paint was streaming into his eyes but the little sergeant could still see and think he yelled to his rto spec four spranza call company say i’m being hit by mortars and rockets we gotta have gunships and ardy spranza did his part captain warren struggling uphill remembered this piece of the message coming in we’re hit by rockets and mortars he later could later he could not recall that sprenz had also asked for gunfire and air artillery but anyhow he relayed that message to the command capsule at lz savvy and spranza got the word back from him it’s on the way those were his final words right then communication between the company and platoon ended both radios worked the mass of the ridge nose intervened and what they mean by that is these fm radios that they’re using they work when you can see them so they work a line of sight what we call line of sight but if there’s a ridgeline in between you then they don’t work so whatever the terrain was they kind of dipped down the terrain and all of a sudden they lost communications at that moment the front men in warren’s warren’s column were halfway back to hereford the break off doubled warren’s anxiety though he was already doing everything possible he had asked that artillery be placed on the slopes alongside the perimeter not on hereford itself for kirby had passed on nothing about casualties and warren was still thinking of 22 live men holding the contested ground the double time climb had begun to slow from sheer exhaustion men stumbled dropped in their tracks were pulled to their feet by their mates and reeled upwards again warren realized now that if he continued the pressure the company would know would reach the scene of the fight deadbeat about that he no longer gave a damn yet passing information on the radio is so freaking important and so hard but if you always think that you’re trying to paint a picture for the person on the other end you’ve got to think that way they don’t know what’s happening and you know if you’ve got casualties and if you can give any additional information now look i mean obviously these guys are in such a horrible way but that’s what’s happening that’s what’s happening he’s he doesn’t know that anyone’s been wounded he hasn’t known anyone’s been killed he thinks that they’re in that position and he’s saying hey start to put artillery on the on the outskirts of the lz the sounds of the struggle had not carried to lz savoy in the distant valley bottom the control point was a throb partly because of warren’s call for help still more because of the monitoring of the conversations between eyewitnesses who were viewing the fight from platforms directly overhead what they saw and what they said in no way lessened the confusions colonel beer so this is the interesting thing about vietnam is that a lot of times there would be aircraft because they had air superiority for the most part and so there’d be helicopters that would just get up cnc helicopters command and control helicopters that would just get up and fly around and be watching this stuff i i have a friend whose dad was in vietnam and he he was a silver star recipient and the whole thing was photographed this whole event you know there was a a gunfight broke out and his dad sort of jumped into a dyke and then crawled along and flanked the enemy and the whole thing he had pictures the whole thing is but that but that tells you what it’s like what do you got dave look i got all sorts of things going on in my head right now this is a brutal scene that you’re reading this this whole thing as it’s playing out and you’re describing these different things is brutal partially because we already know we know the outcome and how you’re describing these little pieces but when you’re talking about the the the inability for the and i think it’s the company commander uh that’s kind of warren warren’s trying to visualize what’s going on with with kirby in his in his platoon when you when you as a leader get something in your head when you kind of create what you think is the outcome when you when you when you get comfortable with what you think you know the outcome or the situation is and you sort of solidify that it’s really hard to change that so if i i picture this guy leaving and there’s so there’s just complacency slipped into all these comments that you’ve read through these little pieces of complacency of yeah it’s not gonna happen yeah i know what’s going on this is my best guy or all those little pieces are helping this guy warn solidify in his mind what he thinks is is going on and it’s impossible for him and the part that i’m connecting to in my mind is how hard that is to for him to visualize things are nowhere near what you think they are and he can’t get it in his head that this whole thing has been wiped out his best guy’s getting overrun and when you in your own mind predetermine the way the outcome is going to be it makes you so much less flexible and adaptable and incapable of maneuvering the way you need to and you know it’s all in retrospect i’m just thinking to myself don’t presume how this is gonna go yeah it’s one of the worst things you can do and you can you can almost hear this guy’s brain struggling trying to accept what’s going on so it’s interesting that you bring that up and as we start to hear more sides of this story you got this guy warren who’s he doesn’t really know he knows that his guy is a good guy and he’s calling for help and it says that’s enough for him to realize that there’s something really really bad but there’s a panic there’s a panic of hey like you know if you call me and dave you’re on on the lz you call me hey jock i need support right now i’d be like okay hey guys listen we’re gonna start taking about they almost immediately go into you know go get your asses back up he literally says get your ass back up the hill now so there’s a level of [Music] let’s say uh urgency that he gets to almost immediately and as we peel this onion back you’re gonna see that you’re right but the picture that he’s painted is what’s happening he knew something was gonna go wrong and as soon as it starts to happen he’s like could get back up there because he didn’t feel comfortable with it it’s like you said it’s just freaking awful yeah back to the book colonel beard the battalion commander major role his s3 and captain robert offer artillery liaison were at the brigade cp when the news came in they took off in a huey to view the fight from above this is like this is a cackworth would get on the ground just kind of fyi just so everybody knows hackworth would get in the helicopter and he land when it made sense obviously yeah before they could reach the scene out of here happenstance major otto cantrell the battalion executive officer of 112 was already hovering above it he had been flying in the area he’d arrived at the opposite peak when he heard warren’s voice in the earphones saying that a platoon was being overrun on hereford so so warren did know that the platoon was being overrun at this point so he flew to station directly above and began orbiting low enough to see people milling around and firing on the ground below him cantrell was yet too high to determine whether they were friend or enemy lieutenant william d fessenden an artillery observer in another h13 had flown the same way and was circling near cantrell he asked cantrell sir can i bring in fire can’t y’all repl replied no i can’t tell where our people are cantrell then flew lower and at about that time beard the battalion commander and his party arrived they could see 40 or more men pressing close to the perimeter they must be vc called beard either that replied cantrell or gi’s with uniforms soaking wet so this is a i know it seems crazy to think that you couldn’t tell the difference between you know uh american soldiers and viet cong i’ll tell you when you’re in a helicopter and you’re looking at things on the ground it is not obvious no it’s not obvious you don’t need to be miles away you can get 50 60 70 feet away and things get real it’s really hard to tell what’s going on i i was i learned this i was i was up at fallon and we were calling in helicopters to pick us up and i’m sitting there i’m standing you know the the terrain in fallon nevada is not there’s no trees it’s just dirt and we’re standing there and the helicopter’s sitting there looking at the helicopter it’s it’s like the wind is hitting me that’s how close it is and they can’t see me yeah and i i was just like what do you mean you can’t see me i’m waving they’re like coming around we’ll come back around we can we can’t and so i had to get out the the red smile orange smoke or whatever yep here we are violet smoke because red smoke wasn’t merging i was thinking the orange panel but yeah you got some huge signal yeah well i think i tried an orange pair orange panel you know wasn’t big enough yeah so that’s where these guys are at back to the book his weird his words merely aggravated doubts all around cantrell’s trouble is that he simply could not make himself believe that one whole american platoon had been wiped out there and he was right now this is where what you were talking about you have this idea how could a whole american platoon get wiped out and it says in the book here there and he was right and it is right why when we’ll get to this later this american platoon the 22 guys is not a platoon right that’s not a platoon you think of a platoon you think of multiple machine gunners you think of 40 guys then he dropped to 100 feet for one swift pass the phenomena of those few seconds doubled his perplexity on the ridge crest above hereford he saw a company of men in dark suits marching to marking marching to this to the fire shell fire was breaking into the landing zone cantrell had no way of knowing that these were enemy rocket rounds not american rounds coming from other bases the dark suited men upslope he identified his enemy he knew that he knew that camouflage rig which from a distance made made them to him look like so many turtles but where were the americans if not on hereford just then he heard a friendly voice on his fm radio please please you must hurry it was spranza getting off his last message but cantrell had no way of knowing that either beard viewing from the same height was for a moment equally in the dark from the start of the fight with good reason kirby had forgotten casting the correspondent he remembered only when casting slid into his position to ask when are we going to get the hell out of here kirby didn’t answer then caston said i’ve got to have a weapon and kirby silently handed him his own 357 magnum quiet now he briefly fitted into the hole beside kirby he spoke only once to say sergeant shepard is dead so now cast in the reporter is in the foxhole and he’s got a 357 magnum all curiosity about the thoughts of men facing death was gone from casting he had been eagerly questioning shepard when the first shots were fired that the that soldier’s swift moral collapse and sudden death were his first shock contact with the realities which mocked his quest while casting’s opening words to kirby rankled they also rang a bell almost anywhere seemed to be better than the exposed ground to which the survivors clutched now under a dust paul kicked up by the grazing fire the fight had been going somewhere between 20 and 25 minutes and the fire was fastly becoming wholly one-sided next to kirby’s position the enemy skirmishers crawling through the elephant grass were not more than 15 feet away the fire buildup suggested they were bunching probably for a rush kirby saw them fleetingly and vaguely as through a haze the flash of an arm of the bobbing of a head kirby got off three hand grenades in that direction as rapidly as he could throw the explosion seemed to damp the close-up fire but not for more than 60 seconds in this moment of decision kirby did not doubt that the ring had been closed and that all the skirmishers waited on the lower slope amid the tall elephant grass between him and the company poised for the kill so he’s sitting there thinking okay we’re surrounded and i know the company’s down the hill but there’s there’s bad guys in between us still he yelled out let’s make it with that he rolled out of his hole and down the slope caston jumped from the hole just ahead of him and was running upright and in the clear pfc bob taste and spec 4 av spikes from the foxhole above kirby went past kirby one rolling the other sprinting then spranza dashed by him as he rolled kirby thought he glimpsed isaac johnson off to his left firing two m16s he was wrong about that johnson had heard someone not quite echoing kirby shout moved down the hill his own weapon was empty he paused briefly to pick up another only to find it in like condition kirby had seen him in that fleeting second when he clutched two useless pieces before throwing them both aside johnson’s face was already a bloody mask from three superficial grenade wounds such was his tension he neither heard the blast of the grenade nor knew that he had been hurt now in panic because he was unarmed he made a running dive at the rocky embankment giving him getting him off hereford lower’s side then he rolled on and on down slope till his body could take no more beating in that spinning descent he covered 150 meters of rock strewn trail when and where he stopped a twisting v-shaped cleft in the ridge back gave off to the left along this slit that trickled the stream no wider than the palm of johnson’s hand he crawled into the bed of it 20 yards or so to where the jungle growth stopped him then he gathered bushes and vines down around him and lay with his face flat in the water so he’s hiding dove off a freaking cliff fell down 150 meters and now he’s hiding in this little ravine not too far above him the ordeal of the other few survivors continued to grow worse of this johnson felt and remembered nothing thought paralyzed by the grip of exhaustion he had closed his mind to the sounds getting out separately some running others rolling kirby’s men had stayed that way during the first few yards of flight through the short grass just off the lz coming to the rocky steep they began to converge toward the center whence the trail ran downhill it is always so with men against fire fear and herd instinct brings them together which is the worst which is the worst thing that can happen since it just shapes up a broad target spranza was the first to get it as they approached the steep kirby’s still rolling others crawling casting standing i’m hit spranza yelled and screamed like a panther three bullets one in each leg and one in the head but marvelously he still lived and now he was erect and walking castin the reporter yelled back hell everybody’s hit that was news to the others casting had taken a bullet in one arm and several grenade frags in the back saying nothing in his last moments the correspondent had the courage of a lion here was a man and they knew it spikes yelled i’m hit it was a bullet through the right arm they then moved 20 feet down the rock bank when spranza yelled again hold it up there in front of us expecting it would come kirby froze right where he was casting kept moving in long strides straight to the trail which led downhill through the elephant grass he had made up his mind and kirby did not bother to shout a warning standing clear on the on the trail was an enemy shoulder soldier rifle aimed kirby heard a scream as caston went down though casting was not 15 yards from him he could not see the fall as the body was enveloped by the sea of grass he heard the whack of the bullet and the thump of the body the bullet had drilled casting through his left temple casting’s personal effect were looted as soon after he fell the camera films and purse were later recovered from the bodies of the enemy in the fight that soon followed many of the next of kin get not even that grain of comfort it is an agonizing matter for the commanders having to explain why the dead soldiers most prized possessions and pictures cannot be returned kirby could now hear enemy soldiers moving up slope toward him they’re chattering the clang of metal from their weapons being worked he was down on his haunches and so were spranza spikes and taste none was firing their only thought was to hide in the grass which rose two feet taller than a standing man they all knew taste was slowly dying two bullets in his neck multiple mortar shards in his back though conscious he made no complaint only asking for water of which there was none the skirmishers were moving up now and beating the grass on both sides of them kirby saw seven of them coming right toward him not 10 feet away and he knew he was discovered he still held an m79 grenade launcher so did spikes they fired right together and the blast killed five of the enemy the other two crawled away leaving blood trails another skirmisher closed in from the left spraying the ground between them with automatic pistol kirby had his m-79 crooked in his arm he had just taken another bullet through the right wrist and was feeling the wound the skirmisher came on and looked through the grass straight at them spikes fired his m79 the range was so short that the grenade didn’t arm but the sheer velocity it blew the man’s head off had it armed it would have likely killed both spikes and kirby a second vc closed in from the left only to turn his back as he almost stumbled over them kirby killed him at a range of five feet together two more groups closed in on them from the right and left kirby took two hand grenades from spranza who by now was wholly down and throwing them in both directions with his wounded arm he drove them off he had no impression of how many he had killed or whether he had even scored a hit he simply knew that they had faded back easing the immediate pressure momentarily while this deadly hide-and-seek game went on down slope hereford lz was being pounded by 105 and 155 millimeter howitzers from the valley basis colonel beard had called for it from his perch aloft and still earlier when early when warren asked for it whether it might have been brought in sooner and done any good is an open question there was no right moment for its use until the americans and cleared away which movement could only be guessed at now it had come and the perimeter was being cratered one of the effects was to drive more of the enemy to the grass field lower down where kirby and his mates crouched the game was still on from down slope a machine gun opened fire and skyed the grass beside them kirby went flat in the nick of time and the bullets zinged directly over his head spikes didn’t make it one burst caught him in the head the sound was enough kirby two feet from him didn’t have to look to know he was dead and he did not wish to look kirby crawled down slope about 10 feet now looking for a weapon thinking that the enemy might have dropped one no luck he was wholly out of ammunition and had no arm left but a flare pistol so he lay flat on his back wondering what to do another skirmisher came back came up parted the grass and looked directly down on him kirby rolled over on his side in the same motion fired his flare pistol upward the round smashed into the glaring face not three feet above him getting him right between the eyes the body was spun completely over by the blast with the figure kicking kirby did not wait to see more than that he crawled back the way he had come to get spranza the impulse was that if he had to die he would rather not be alone both men were silent now there was nothing to say time had about run out they thought they were the only survivors though this they were slightly wrong johnson was still face down in his private cleft spec 4 charles stuckey whose swift reaction had started the fight had moved obliquely to the others in getting away from the perimeter hidden in the tall grass alongside the knob he had rare fortune until the final minutes he came under a grenade shower the last of the survivors to get hit directly towards kirby and spranza another enemy group moved down the slope kirby didn’t wait for them having nothing to fire he crawled upward through the elephant grass leaving sprans and passing the skirmishers undetected they fairly stumbled across spranza he played dead his head being gory from a bullet that had entered his left ear and emerged through his nose it is less remarkable that the deception worked than that he stayed conscious and was capable of thought they rolled him over searched his pockets took his wallet knife and cigarettes and continued on having gone inert spranza stayed that way kirby had no sense of the barraging of hereford though the fire had been going on all of ten minutes now as he crawled upward he heard at last heard the explosions and knew what they were that determined him he would crawl to the fire and try and hug it two thoughts were in his mind charlie will get as far away from this as possible and if he had to die that was still the preferable risk halfway back to the perimeter his ear told him that the shelling had suddenly ceased not knowing what that meant he still crawled on it was a tortured most labored movement as his last reserve of will and strength was draining away he got within six feet of the first foxhole before he looked up what he saw almost numbed his senses and he felt as as if he would faint sitting in the foxhole pointing an m16 directly at his head was pfc morgan of first platoon he crawled a few more feet forward still prone looked around every hole at hereford was occupied by an american captain warren and the company had returned to the hill sergeant owen l lewis and james w edwards came over to help kirby to his feet no words passed between them they were not merely choked up they were sobbing convulsively and seeing them kirby knew tears for the first time that day later warren said if my men cried it was because they were so damn mad kirby knew better than that they were moaning mourning the death of the platoon kirby told them where to look for sprans and not knowing that the company had found him on the way up or that he’d already been evacuated from hereford by the chopper stuckey appeared about that moment and he and kirby were flown to on k aboard the same huey it was some time later that johnson came in when the hill went quiet he started crawling upward coming to the tall grass he saw his friend sergeant wallace w hood standing in the clear on the forward edge of hereford and that sight brought him to his feet days later he was still in a state of shock kirby taken to the hospital of his own choice returned to the company duty within ten days still convalescent unlike johnson he was fully coherent with his emotions under tight control until he spoke of seeing the company in tears warren and the company had made that frantic uphill climb to hereford in exactly 35 minutes the descent over the same trail had taken them an hour longer if a record march it was too little a veil they saw dead americans in all but six fox foxholes and thought at first spranza was the only survival survivor the platoon weapons had been taken everybody had been stripped of personal effects warren deployed two of his platoons for a 600-yard sweep to the eastward along both flanks of the ridge the hunt proved almost barren of result though blood trails were numerous and heavily marked only five bodies were found and they all too obviously had been felled by artillery the fanatics must have hauled away a larger count of dead than was lost to the company so in the end they departed as they had come more suddenly than mysteriously how the trap had been sprung was easy enough to figure out in retrospect retrospect this enemy force of about 200 was much too fresh to have followed in along warren’s wake as he came over the trail from hill 766 the time interval was not long enough to have permitted ascent from lower levels toward which warren had kept moving if there had been an assembly and movement still no sound had been detected last the enemy’s main weapons were sighted dead on target thus the enemy force must have been there all the time some yards off the trail and along the ridge sides as warren’s column had walked through had warren stayed in full strength on hereford there might not have been no fight he carried out his orders of that came the most melancholy episode in operation crazy horse now you may have noticed that i didn’t mention the author of this book that i’m reading and the reason i didn’t mention the author of this book is because i didn’t want to cloud your impression the author was a guy by the name of sla marshall and i talked about him on podcast 142 where we covered his book men against fire and you heard him use that phrase in here and sla marshall was a famous military man we’ll say and he ended up be being a general he was a historian he was a writer he was a he was a reservist so he was a civilian writer and wrote a bunch of articles and it was work for a newspaper but he’s also a very controversial figure and and hackworth tour did a tour with him in vietnam and kind of reveals the guy’s character he was very egotistical and he also he also made claims about his experiences in war that were not true he he lied about his experience you know he he lied about his uh military about his combat experience in world war one and then he also wrote in a way that supported his own theories and his own hypotheses and you know in men against fire there’s a lot of people that went back and broke down what he wrote in that book and we covered that book on this podcast like i said because we didn’t want to throw away the the baby with the bathwater but there’s a lot of things that were very controversial and some of them just straight up wrong and on top of all that he never let the truth get in the way of a good story so when i read this portion of battles in the monsoon this was this was on my mind and the article i mean th this book didn’t it didn’t paint kirby in such a bad light as this as the as the manual did which made him just sound like a complete you know lackadaisical guy that just let all the stuff go and and didn’t have any discipline and didn’t follow any good protocols but at the same time i’m reading this book thinking well you know sla marshall he’s not necessarily a guy that’s gonna he just wants a really good story so he’s not in my opinion and just based on the things he’s written in the past this isn’t some this isn’t a reliable source either even though he would go and interview people like those quotes he’s getting he would interview people absolutely but still he’s gonna he’s gonna make that story kind of the way he wants it and so i was still not satisfied with the information that i had in front of me and so i did some more research and i found another article i found an article on a on a website called historynet com and there’s an article written by a guy named michael christie michael christie so michael christie enlisted in the marine corps out of high school and then he joined the army yeah became an officer probably went to college became an officer served in the fifth special forces group in vietnam from 1967 to 1968 and in 1970 he was the commander of sea company 1st battalion 12th cavalry regiment the very same company involved in the battle at lz hereford so he wasn’t there but you know you’re gonna have some connections you’re gonna be able to put some things together you’re gonna hear some some backfill and he eventually retired and became a writer and he produced a bunch of documentaries and then he made a series of leadership videos for for the military so the military hired him to make leadership videos some of those were hosted by lee marvin which is pretty cool but he wrote this article and this article is called last stand at lz hereford soldiers shield themselves as best they can from the dirt and debris stirred up by a huey squeezing into tight one ship landing zone around noon the pilot touches down and two officers jump from the helicopter and land in a large mud puddle one gi chuckles pokes his buddy and laughs quietly at the officers in fresh jungle fatigues stamping the mud off their polished boots a dirty unshaven captain greets them wearing torn jungle fatigues and mud covered boots toting an m16 so there’s warren so now we’re starting to get a little better picture you know you’ve got the stereotypical sort of officers rolling in with their brand new fatigues and polished boots and outcomes warren who’s been out in the jungle now for a while on this just this operation the trio moves to the edge of the landing zone where towering elephant grass offers a bit of protection from the early afternoon sun the major unfolds a map and the three begin discussing a mission within minutes there is strong disagreement over the plan lieutenant colonel rutland beard commander of the first battalion 12th cavalry first cavalry division and his operations officer major william roll are insisting that captain don warren charlie company commander leave his 20-man mortar platoon alone on landing zone hereford to provide fire support to warren’s company as it moves down the steep precipice toward the valley below warren is equally insistent on keeping at least one rifle squad behind to provide security sir my mortar platoon is down to half strength because of malaria and has only m16s and a couple m79s if i leave behind a rifle squad they will have at least one machine gun for security beard tells warren that the mortar platoon will be on the hill for less than an hour before it will be lifted out and taken to another lz warren’s eyes lock on beards anything can happen in hours sir irritated at warren’s near insubordination beard warns captain if you don’t do as i order you will be in more trouble than you can imagine is that understood warren hesitates a moment before answering tersely yes colonel will that be all sir beard indicates yes and warren spins on his heels and walks over to his rifle platoon leaders to pass the orders beard takes a sideward glance at roll shakes his head and returns to his helicopter so automatically we see where this is going and by the way look i love this book uh the the the the squad leader makes a difference but the squad leader is getting put in a bad situation right now yeah warren has every reason for concern about the safety of his under strength mortal platoon hereford’s topography makes it nearly impossible for even a fully armed rifle company to defend it from a determined enemy it is a small saddle 165 yards long by 45 yards wide that’s partially encircled by tall elephant grass beyond the elephant grass is completely surrounded by rugged unforgiving landscape the most hostile being the steep razorback ridgeline reaching northeast toward a towering mountain or nearly a thousand feet high at the base of the ridge hereford’s northern boundary begins to slope gently downhill continues on explaining what we already know hereford is also the center of fierce fighting that began seven days earlier on may 15 so now they give a little background to this this whole operation crazy horse when word of that battle filtered down to first cavalry leaders they then decided the next day to conduct a major operation in the area and that’s what they’re doing sitting on the edge of his foxhole on lz hereford staff sergeant robert kirby watches as captain warren leads three platoons from his rifle company off the mountain and down a steep slope in search of the enemy when the last man disappears over the rim kirby checks his watch it’s 1 40 p m less than in less than 45 minutes his mortar platoon is to be airlifted off hereford to lz savoy where it will continue providing fire support for charlie company to occupy a company size defensive perimeter with only 19 men so now we’re talking companies to size perimeter that’s that’s 150 people yeah he’s got 19 guys kirby figured the best way to do this was to form a u-shaped defense and place two men into every third foxhole this however left the top of the horseshoe open knowing his men are spread too thin kirby a 29 year old native of south los angeles scans the perimeter from his foxhole at the bend of the hershey beginning with the gun crew directly behind him inside the pit is sergeant charles gaines and spec 4 austin drummond a former golden gloves champion with fast hands perfect for dropping rounds into a mortar tube sergeant isaac johnson sits on the ground nearby with a plot board on his lap the gun crew is ready to place supporting fire when and where the company commander needs it most of the mortar platoon have been together since fort benning georgia but a few are replacements who have never been in battle so kirby has no idea how well they will react under fire one of his new men is spec for david crocker a 21 year old medic who sits a few feet from kirby reading a paperback his medical bag ready at his side and the foxhole next to kirby is long-time radio operator spec for john spranza who is the platoons linked to the outside world and is never more than an arm’s length away from kirby communications are unreliable because the high mountain’s in deep valley how’s the como ask kirby so far so good answer spranza but who knows for how long kirby focuses on the western section of the perimeter holding down the most forward position at the top of the open horseshoe are two men who have fought bravely in previous fire fights private’s lonnie sleepy williams whose deep sleep often resulted in heavy snoring and clearance gomer braim a good-natured hillbilly who looked and acted like tv’s gomer pyle two empty fighting positions below them are combat vets robert radar roader and pfc harold mack jr in a fierce firefight a few months before kirby had been wounded and pinned down when 18 year old roeder ignoring heavy fire ran out and pulled him to safety mack and rotor have been close friends ever since airborne school so we didn’t know that about kirby that kirby’s bidding combat he’s been wounded and he’s still out there doing his job this guy has combat experience and now we’re gonna think that he’s just gonna be laxatical in this scenario in the last defensive position on the western side kirby assigned a competent and respected leader sergeant louis buckley with pfc henry benton who joined the platoon only two weeks ago kirby knows little about benton and the two new privates covering the southern sector a few yards away from kirby’s position joel tamayo and james francis brooks jr both of whom joined the platoon just a few weeks earlier so he’s got those guys that he doesn’t really know too well kind of close at hand kirby decides to walk the eastern side of the perimeter but before he goes he tells buckley to collect and stack water cans food containers and other equipment in preparation for the helicopter pickup roger that sarge says buckley as he springs into action as kirby walks away he hears spranza take call take the first call for reconnaissance fire in advance of the company’s movement in the valley below so why is kirby walking the perimeter because he’s doing his job as a leader and he’s also prepping to leave because you when you when you when the helicopters come in is it that the good time to stack up stuff and get it off the dz or the lz no you want to have it prepped so the helicopters don’t spend a bunch of time there and you want to get all the stuff off the lz so the enemy can’t use it sitting in the nearest position to kirby kirby’s on the eastern sector is spec for av spikes who is complaining about something to pfc wade taste spike stop bitching and keep your eyes open warns kirby as he approaches spike’s a 26-7 year veteran whose disregard for authorities well known looks at kirby but says nothing kirby orders 18 year old taste to help buckley who’s already picking up scattering cans and containers so he’s tell stop bitching and keep your eyes open this is what a platoon sergeant should be doing kirby moves to the next position where look magazine correspondent sam caston is interviewing spec for daniel post and pfc roger robert benjamin caston came out of the field a day before to write a story about death he had chosen to stay on hereford with a mortal platoon rather than travel the company post known as platoon’s practical joker feeds cast in mischievous responses while benjamin only responds in yes or no answers kirby queries the two troopers on what they will do if attacked they tell them they plan on throwing hand grenades down the rocky preposition below their position and firing interlocking fires with the positions on their left and right so that’s kirby kirby’s like okay what are you gonna do if we get hit they say we’re gonna throw grenades over there everybody got interlocking fields of fire with this other position satisfied kirby heads for the most forward position at the top of the eastern sector sector manned by paul harrison and charles stuckey both battle tested specialists harrison and stuckey have established interlocking fields of fire across the open end of the ushi perimeter with williams and braim on the western side so he set the positions he went out inspect the position to make sure people understand their field of fire squad leaders actually doing his job on the way back to his position kirby knives nods to sergeant first class edward shepherd sitting on the rim of the foxhole not far apart from the mortar pit shepherd 38 is the only soldier there who’s not in the mortar platoon he stayed behind to catch a helicopter where he is a to appear before a promotion board kirby sits on the edge of the foxhole and watches spranza talking on the radio with captain warren who is calling correction on where to place another mortar round spranza yells back correction to the gun crew and it then fires a few more rounds shortly after 2 pm warren radio spranza that the helicopters are on the way and that word spreads from hold the hole what warren does not know is that the helicopters are actually delayed and still sitting on the ground at lz savvy in the valley around 2 15 five minutes before the anticipated arrive in the helicopter stuckey spots three well-camouflaged north vietnamese army soldiers watching him from the elephant grass he opens fire with his m16 and harrison joins in the three enemy drop either dead or wounded so you’re if you don’t catch well camouflaged nva if you’re not paying attention these guys are paying attention then in the next instant a massive volume of automatic fire and small arms fires unleashed from the high ground to the north and a ravine to the east shepherd sitting on the rim of the foxhole is killed in the first valley volley within seconds the rocket propelled grenades mortar rounds explode near each occupied position men bro deep inside their foxhole under the terrifying shrapnel slicing through the air and bullets cracking overhead the platoon is surrounded outmanned and outgunned kirby yells as friends at a radio warren and tell them they are under attack and need immediate air and artillery support a stunned warren acknowledges immediately calls battalion for fire support and orders his company to turn around and head back up the hill so to your point earlier warren the reason he was able to turn around and head and go is because he didn’t even want to leave in the first place in the open stacking equipment taste falls to the ground with two bullets to the throat buckley his shoulder covered in blood dashes across the open perimeter screaming get off the hill get off the hill and disappears into the elephant grass harrison yells for stucky to go to the mortar pit while he stays behind to hold off the enemy stuckey takes a few more shots at the enemy turns and zigzags for the mortar pit when an rpg round explodes in front of him throwing him to the ground after the shrapnel and dirt stop falling he raises his head and looks to see where post and benjamin had been trying to make an escape both are dead he sprints towards a large large rock right just outside the perimeter as he turns the corner of it he encounters an enemy soldier about to throw a grenade into the lz spotting stucky the nva tosses the grenade directly at him it’s den instead the grenade sails over stuck his head hits the rock behind him and explodes wounding him managing to stay in his feet stuck he fires three rounds in the nva’s chest killing him instantly stuck he then moves around the rock face finds a narrow crevice and squeezes into it hidden from the enemy paul harrison slapping magazine after magazine into his rifle fires at every charging enemy soldier he can see when he runs out of ammunition he jumps up from his foxhole and charges the nva using his m16 as a club cracking a few heads before the blood covered rifle slips from his hands he then wades into the enemy with his fists until he falls dead from dozens of bullets as north vietnamese burst through the elephant grass spranza opens up with his m16 on full automatic tearing three of them apart he manages to fire off a few more shots before rtb rounds rbg rounds visible in their slow trajectory plunge toward the mortar pit one round slams in front of spranza’s foxhole showering his back with shrapnel another explodes to his left killing doc crocker instantly the third round sends shrapnel into kirby’s arms head and chest the last round hits the rear lip of the mortar pit tearing off drubbin’s right arm and mangling his left leg he dies in a pool of blood gaines is killed with a bullet through his head johnson the only gun crew member alive takes shrapnel in the face but continues firing on the advancing enemy as attackers fall others jump over them running toward johnson who keeps firing until he is out of ammunition he makes a running dive at the rocky abatement on hereford southern edge and rolls down the slope careening off rocks and over tree roots until finally coming to a stop he spots a v-shaped depression hidden in thick vegetation with a stream running through it he pulls himself into the stream and gathers brush and vines to hide his body grip with fear and exhaustion on the western perimeter williams and brain frantically fire their m16s on full automatic at the waves of nva as do rotor and mack a few nva fall dead but most brave the wall of fire overrunning the position and killing williams and braim before turning toward rotor and mack mack pops up to get a better shot when he takes a bullet to the head crumbling back into the foxhole dead roeder fires his m79 until he’s out of ammunition then picks up max m16 and continues firing until it too is empty he throws two grenades at the charging enemy forcing them to fall back then jumps out of his fighting position and heads for benton’s foxhole when he tumbles in he finds benton dead he crawls out and with bullets trailing his every step races over to the foxhole of brooks and tamayo but they are dead as well the western defense has crumbled figuring everyone else is dead roeder does what he is trained to do escape and evade he tears down the side of the hill into the elephant grass followed by several enemy with bullets zipping over his head he runs deeper into the elephant grass as fast as he can until he’s overcome by exhaustion and drops to the ground when he is gasping when his gasping for air subsides he realize the enemy is no longer following him he stays hidden silently praying that he will be spared still in his hole spranza sees a figure running toward his position he fires off a quick burst somehow missing his target don’t shoot for god’s sake it’s me sam caston screams as he drops into the foxhole the reporter looks over at kirby and yells we need to get the hell out of here kirby shouts back where we’re surrounded get six on the horn kirby tells spranza tell him to hurry or we’re dead spranza screams into the headset please hurry we’re being overrun but warren doesn’t get the transmission as communication between herefor and the company no longer exists sprans returns to the artillery frequency and repeats the message that artillery rto passes the call to warren who now pushes his company even more ordering his men to double time up the hill a murderous pace in the mud and tangled vines by this time the battalion executive officer major cantrell is circling above hereford and his observation helicopter and colonel beard is watching the battle from his command and control huey the swarm of enemy they see below is so intermingled with the mortar position neither officer can distinguish who’s who rather than kill the defenders by mistake beard holds off on artillery requested by kirby meanwhile kirby sees four enemy crawling towards his position less than 15 feet away and tosses three hand grenades as fast as he can stopping their advance kirby now realizes casting is right their only chance for survival is to get off the lz he cups his hands to bark the order when the badly wounded taste suddenly drops into his foxhole kirby ties a dressing on tastes bleeding throat and yells over the enemy fire we gotta make a break for it call already on the hill spranza reaches the artillery net shouting into the handset we’re getting out of here the place is covered with enemy just about everybody is dead he is told artillery is on hold with bullets kicking up dirt all around them kirby and taste low crawl over to spranza and caston we’ll go over the rim in the direction the company will be coming in hollers kirby let’s go as spranza struggles with his radio while he climbs out of the foxhole kirby screams forget the radio blow it spranza pulls the pin of a hand grenade and throws it in the foxhole with the radio the three soldiers in casting move as quickly away from the blast and a few steps later come across a wounded wounded av spikes clutching his m79 kirby and spranza have their m16s but very little ammunition castin who is also wounded has a 357 magnum that kirby gave him taste is unarmed the five wounded men now move toward the slope descending into a deep ravine to the east kirby tastes spikes and cast and run crawl and roll into the elephant grass while spranza act as a rear guard before rolling down the hill to join them as they reach a small ravine they hear the enemy coming down from the lz in hot pursuit they lie down figuring the americans are hiding the nva began beating the grass the first north vietnamese to spot the americans is shot in the face by spranza kirby kills another standing nearby spikes fires his m79 into the group killing five the other two crawl away wounded seconds later another group of north vietnamese spray the ground around the americans sprans it takes three bullets in his right leg one smashing into his kneecap severing the tendon another bullet rips through his left leg i’m hit sprans the screams as he falls into a hepa on the jungle floor kirby sprays the advancing enemy with the last of his ammunition causing them to retreat when he bends down to check on sprans a bullet smashes into his right arm he’s now losing blood from many wounds kirby eyes an nva peeking over the grass and pulls out a rusty french flare gun he’d found on an old battlefield and fires hitting in between the eyes the soldier falls backwards screaming in agony as his flesh burns away in the meantime taste silently bleeds to death from his throat wounds hearing something behind him spranza spins around just as a bullet enters the back of his skull travels through his jaw and exes out of his nose tearing away the cartilage teeth tissue and skin eyes filled with blood spranza goes down badly wounded but somehow still alive possibly to regroup the enemy stops firing kirby tells everyone to head farther down the ravine quietly the forward survivors crawl then walk down the slope with help from kirby and spike spranza manages to keep up feeling somewhat safe with a nva about a hundred yards behind they move a little faster suddenly spotting a small group of enemy coming up a trail to their flank spranzel signals to get down casting does not see spranza’s warning and keeps going running straight into a group of north vietnamese coming from another direction one of the nva shoots casting in the head killing him the enemy now opens fire to the grasses from two sides spikes takes several bullets in his chest kirby checks his pulse but cannot find one the north vietnamese troops slowly weighed through the grass toward kirby and spranza kirby’s out of ammo sprans rifle is jammed but he has two grenades left and he gives them to kirby who tosses them into the advancing enemy just then friendly artillery rounds begin pounding lz hereford the deafening explosion stopped the enemies advance kirby and spranza take advantage of the situation and begin to move slowly back up the hill but it’s too much for spranza go without me he gasps i can’t move any further i’m dying i’m not leaving you alone says kirby go now spransy yell save yourself i’ve made peace with my lord just go kirby believing spranza will die for sure reluctantly recedes to the rto’s demand and crawls away back towards hereford spranza although growing weaker from loss of bud blood finds the will to take off a scabbard knife strapped to his leg by a leather thong he places the knife around on the ground next to him uses a the rawhide as a tourniquet to stop the bleeding in his right leg he then somehow manages to open his first aid kit find a gauze bandage and begins wrapping around his head and eye before he can finish however he hears rustling of men coming toward him through the grass he takes his knife into his hand and rolls over face down in the dirt playing dead spranza doesn’t move a muscle as three or four nva slowly approach he smells their bodies and stale breath as they search him for anything of value one man turns him over and roughly strips off his signet ring another’s take his wallet cigarettes and dog tags unable to stay motionless another second he’s about to jump up with his knife when he hears a helicopter rapidly descending it sprays the ground with bullets some so close they spattered dirt in his face screaming frantically the nva run for cover still afraid to move spranza continues to play dead and seconds later he hears someone carefully moving toward him he grips his knife a little tighter and when he feels a hand grab his shoulder he musters all the strength he has left and tries stabbing the man but the large shattery figure bat licked by the sun drifting through the trees quickly grabs spranza’s knife in hand screaming hey it’s me carlos carlos cruz charlie company had made it back up the hill the last of his energy drained spranza lays down his head and slips into unconsciousness kirby is halfway up the slope when friendly artillery ceases falling uncertain what it means he keeps crawling his many wounds are taking their toll but he keeps going until he reaches the top of the hill where he sees charlie company troops everywhere unable to control his wounded body and freight emotions he slides to the ground a medic gives him a shot of morphine and stops his bleeding when the wounded stuckey comes crawling into the lz another medic rushes over lays him down and treats his wounds sprans is carried up the hill in a stretcher made from ponchos and shortly he kirby and stuckey are placed in a medevac helicopter and flown out passing the medevacs flying out helicopters begin delivering reinforcements who pile out onto hereford a look of horror passes over their faces at the sight of so much death and destruction one soldier throws up hearing the helicopters coming and going johnson who got off the hill and evaded the enemy slowly approaches the lz only to face the muzzle of an m16 held by pfc morgan he drops to the ground out of relief when he is recognized by morgan the last mortar platoon survivor to get back to the lz is a dazed roader company platoon leader asked rogan to identify the bodies all of which have been stripped of personal effects and shot in the head he is able to name a few before the weight of the massacre takes its toll he cannot look at another dead friend as he sits down the afternoon monsoon rains begin pouring down out of the dark sky rotor shivers as the rain pelts his sobbing body so much death in such a small place so there’s another view of this battle and clearly you know the the difference is immense the leadership issues you know there’s a whole discussion to have about that you know at what point when you’re being told to do something that doesn’t make sense at what point do you at what point do you say we’re not doing that and and you know this is leadership strategy and tactics and they got the whole assessment of that and it’s not like i’m not saying leadership and strategy and tactics tells you the answer but it gives you the the options and it’s heavy options to weigh and and you could look at warren and say well if that if it wasn’t safe i wouldn’t do it okay well then he fires you on the spot he puts some young lieutenant in charge of the platoon and you get thrown on the helicopter and taken out so so what good did you do now you could also say hey roger that by the way give me a give me a fire team over here give me a gun give me a machine gunner this is what we’re doing once the once the boss leave you could do that it’s a good option i like that option you could and you don’t know what kind of relationship we have because there’s also i mean i guess we could say that it appears that the relationship isn’t great i guess we do know that much but sometimes if somebody is very convicted in the way that they’re offering advice it can be convincing and this is something that i have to be careful of because i know i can be convincing i know i can’t be and i have to be careful in fact that’s one of the probably the original reasons for me being such a listener is i know that if i say i think we should do this a lot of people just say roger that like if that’s what you think we’re on board i mean that’s kind of something i had to watch out for and it be turned me into more of a listener because i didn’t want to subdue people’s thoughts i didn’t want to tamper with their ideas and i didn’t want to to override how they thought something should go so we have to be careful of that as a leader to make sure that we aren’t just being so overbearing that people don’t push back against us the three different versions i get if you want to call them versions just three different perspectives right of that you know paint each one paints such a unique picture and you know i wrote down on my notes again everything that i write down or just the things that i’m thinking in real time and and it’s really frustrating to sit here and listen to this knowing the outcome and seeing all these pieces play out knowing that this was a totally this was this was a preventable this is a leadership failure it is a leadership failure at a lot of different levels and this last one really paints a more clear picture of how this predicament happened but knowing that this is this is not an unsolvable problem that they were just in no way could this have been prevented this is simply not true and and the frustration of that and when i when i picture just the conversation of the of the person in charge telling a subordinate do it or else just the just the the philosophy that i lead through my authority and the catastrophic events that happen that has in this case we’re talking human life i mean this is a a catastrophic thing but those same that same approach and how often leaders are emphatic in what they want not recognizing just how destructive that is to them as a leader and i’m sitting here trying to picture these guys up in a helicopter looking down and the sickening feeling they must have had of this is what i what what did i create how did i how did this happen well it happened because of you because you as a leader demanded things happen the way that you want and i’m picturing while i mean and i was struggling early with this guy with with the company commander not being able to reconcile and that’s just me piecing things together and and i imagine this feeling of the entire time walking down the hill knowing knowing he didn’t want to do that the patent quote front line the front line the leader in the field is always right right you’re coming from your helicopter you’re getting off and you’re telling me what to do that just sits so foul for me and the other thing that’s interesting about this is you would think that we could be sitting here saying as two you know military leaders that you and i were you you you it’s it’s very easy to say we could you and i could be sitting here having a conversation where look discipline is paramount obviously we could sit here and say jocko jack was saying discipline is paramount no one would question that for one millisecond discipline is paramount you have to you have to get people into a point where they will obey what you say and you they need to do it that’s what military training is that’s what you learn in boot camp that’s what you learn in officer candidate school to to instant obey orders like that’s what we want and that’s just just so wrong it’s just so wrong it’s so wrong to think that it’s so wrong to feel that way and you know what like i’m so thankful that i had the luxury of being in the military and being able to experience this and and then on top of that getting to see it while i was training people and then on top of it getting to see it with all these companies that we work with because occasionally to this day someone will say to me somebody at some company will say yeah but sometimes don’t they just need to shut up and do what they’re told to do i get that i get that i still get that and what they think i’m gonna say is well hell yeah that’s what everybody thinks i’m gonna say and it’s like actually no you don’t want that and i actually i actually had a good uh situation like this was working with a client and i had two people on the call there’s more than two people but there’s two people that kind of rose to the conversation one of them was you know but they just need to do it and and i rebutted that guy and said well if what you’re going to do is just you know bark to him shut up and do it whether you believe it or not that’s not going to have a good outcome and here’s why i went through the whole thing and when i got done with that the other guy said that’s what we need to do we need to actually listen what they have to say we have to take their input now like all those things we need to make their plan all those things that we talk about all the time which is it’s just shocking that people still you know what they think tactically because tactically if i say dave shut up and do what i told you to do you’re gonna do it just like this guy did it’s a tactical win hey the battalion commander says hey you shut up and do what i told you to do yeah roger that okay you just won the tactical battle but what look what happens look what happens you won that little tactical battle and you lose these other people and and look could there have been no one waiting on that lz absolutely there could have been no one wait there could have been no enemy on that lz and everything would have gone fine and that guy’s that guy’s tyrannical behavior would have been reinforced as the right way to lead and it ain’t the right way to lead is not the right way to lead this guy’s a battalion commander he’s probably been leading like that through his whole career with with with no consequence certainly no n nothing like this to this degree this story and you know what makes that happen and i brought this up with a client the other day in the military because i say look you can be effective with that kind of brow beating tyrannical leadership for for whatever for an hour for a week right i can just yell dave shut up and do what i told you to do and actually in the military i can get away with it for my whole career why is that because you dave you’re working for me you know you only have to work for me for 18 months right you know it’s gonna take me a couple months to figure myself out by the time my tour is starting to look coming to an end you’re not even gonna give me resistance anymore you’re like cool he’s gone and whatever so these guys can bounce from job to job to job being in charge of this group by the time he leaves they he’s hated yeah but he’s accomplished he’s quote accomplished the mission right he’s got his good fit rep he’s done his job he’s accomplished the mission he’s hated they don’t want to do it they’re sabotaging him or they’re they’re they’re sloughing them off they’re doing all those things but no one knows it his his chain of command above him thinks oh yeah well he did a good job he got the mission accomplished first of all they never got tested second of all doesn’t know the morale of the troops because that guy’s able to hide it so that’s how these military leaders sometimes they get through their whole career yeah and i mean whole career i’m talking 34-year careers where they never actually led anybody all they did was bark orders and they retire as an admiral they retire as a general and and they don’t know how to lead they don’t know how to lead no obviously there’s some incredible generals and admirals obviously and captains and colonels obviously but just because you became an admiral or you became a colonel or you became a captain or you became a general that doesn’t mean you knew how to lead and you know what you if you were a tyrannical leader you you can get away with that in the military yeah you can get away with because it’s only a two-year command no one wants to they want guess what everyone below you actually also wants a good fit rep so you want a good fit rep so you’re going to bark into everyone and everyone below you just wants a good evaluation so they’re just going to kind of follow your lead and put up with it that i mean that’s that self-preservation i saw that in my career all the time too and and we had a term for we called it a run out the clock scenario and we’d sit you know and we’d have you know the young captains the junior guys would sit around and it was just us and we’d vent and we’d get frustrated and i’d see people complain and and i’d see my peers getting this off their chest and and when you do the calculation of hey what are we going to do about it are we going to push back are we going to you know are we going to fight back up the chain in the end the conclusion is always just run out the clock man this guy’s gone in seven months or whatever or just yeah this guy’s gone in seven months and by the way we have a we got a two-month trip here he’s not coming with us we got this we got that he’s going to this thing and it’s really what is it we’re going to be face to face with him for another month don’t worry about it suck it up and and i don’t mean to paint some picture that we just sort of resigned ourselves really what it was was you know what i’m going to focus my energy on my guys yeah i’m going to i’m not going gonna waste my time with this guy but but it does create that that it it helps perpetuate the scenario you just described and you know to whatever small percentage there are leaders in the military just like every other organization that got their way they they got their way through and it and they’re not good leaders because they do exactly this and and i’m thinking too of of not just a scenario where you’re my subordinate leader and i go hey i want it done done this way jocko and you’re not like well mate you know i was kind of thinking maybe plan b is better than plan a you’re saying dave no way man what better position for me as a leader to have a guy who who the more emphatic you are about what you’re doing more likely it’s likely that the more loyal you are and the more you want the outcome to be good that’s why you’re pushing back and if you’re in a leadership position and your people are pushing back aggressively that’s even more of a reason to listen to them because there’s clearly something and what always happens is we meet we see people meet resistance with resistance the more resistance i get the more i should stop resisting them or i want to listen now if you go well yeah i mean i guess so okay cool just do my way and that’s kind of the end of the story but if you if you go to the mat with me no this is a bad idea and i’m not gonna listen to that as a leader why is this person pushing back because they because they don’t care about the mission they don’t care about the people they don’t care about the outcome and it is jocko pushing back because he doesn’t because he doesn’t care about his people because he doesn’t want this to be successful why why would jonko possibly be drawing a line in the sand right now right yeah there’s a re you want to know what the reason is there’s a reason there’s a reason there’s a damn good news and you need to figure it out and also in this thing this scenario we’re painting where you’re my subordinate leader i also have to give you a little bit of credit that you recognize you are putting your career at risk wait you’re gonna bow up to me junior subordinate i have to recognize that you even realize that this is a sketchy move you’re making right now you’re going to the boss and telling him no you don’t think the subordinate leader recognizes the risk that he’s taking by by by digging in a little bit and going boss this is a bad idea i mean of course i’m sitting here with the luxury of having benefited from all the things that echelon front has done and all the things you’ve written about in all the podcasts i’ve listened to it doesn’t make it any less easy to hear this story and picture that conversation and know that that tyrannical leadership is widespread and it’s all over the place and it doesn’t work it’s it’s re it’s it’s frustrating to listen to that story and you think about you know the the catastrophic outcome but even the subtleties of of people leading through hey at the end you know we can go back and forth but in the end you’re gonna do it my way what a what a devastating approach that is to to leading the people around you horrible in every possible way so digging a little bit deeper on this there was some there was some people that wrote in to historynet com and asked michael christie for some more amplifying information here’s one of the letters that got written in the article last stand at lz hereford by michael christie had me living the experiences as if i were there i served in vietnam with the marines including 40 days under siege at compton in 1967 we always feared a human wave attack like experienced by the soldiers at hereford i would like to know if lieutenant colonel rutland beard was ever charged with negligence for ordering charlie company commander cop captain don warren to leave his mortar platoon behind in a vulnerable position with no infantry support while the rest of charlie moved out also i was curious to know if staff sergeant robert kirby was recognized for his harrowing attempt to lead a small group of soldiers and journalist sam caston to safety i have to wonder how john spranza who is badly wounded and played dead before his rescue and the other survivors are doing today after their dreadful experience well for one thing we know that staff sergeant john kirby though not named was written about in a very negative way in this other manual but guess what michael christie responded and here’s here’s his response as one would expect the horrors of the massacre at lz hereford had a tremendous impact on the lives of those of all those involved captain don warren became an alcoholic and eventually committed suicide so the the decision that we’re sitting here toiling over he toiled over it too sergeant robert kirby retired from the army and refuses to talk about lz hereford claiming he remembers almost nothing about it although he did receive a silver star for his part in the battle god bless him bob roeder has a severe case of ptsd but still managed to succeed he married his high school sweetheart raised a family and operated a multi-million dollar medical supply business john speranza overcame his physical injuries this is the so so bob roeder was the last guy to be recovered the guy that broke down trying to identify his friends jon spranzo’s got shot in the ear exit wound in the nose john spranza overcame his physical injuries but suffered from emotional damage his drinking led to three divorces yet the same determination that saved his life 46 years ago allowed him to work successfully in two long careers first in the printing industry and then as a rural postman for 20 years he and his wife of 26 years are retired and live in northern georgia charles stuckey died of cancer six years ago no one has heard from isaac johnson since lz hereford was overrun no official record exists on rutland beard receiving any reprimand he retired from the army as a colonel as for the company members who rushed to the rescue all are still horrified by the carnage they witnessed once they reached lz hereford there’s another letter the story of carnage on lz hereford is a riveting piece of work but as noted it varied glaringly in spots from the sla martial narrative published 46 years ago nonetheless both our authors accurately capture the overall horror of the event about a week before the attack described by christie on a company from another battalion had been overrun at hereford and my company from the one five cab first cav division was airlifted onto the lz the following morning to assist in his book battles in the monsoon marshall claimed that all that the kias had been evacuated the previous evening but i distinctly recall seeing the pancho covered bodies of the u s soldiers still ringing the landing zone den and me were everywhere the americans gave as good as they got and there’s one more little well maybe not so little there’s one more detail that i want to go into so sam caston the journalist he was married when he was in vietnam and he and his wife a woman named fran caston had moved to hong kong while he was working in vietnam so they were um you know close flight and he figured well i’ll still want to see you so we’ll move to hong kong and then when i go work in vietnam and then when i’m not working i’ll come back and they’d been there for about a month before he was killed and they had a 13 month old toddler at the time they’re there in hong kong and after he was killed she she packed up she went back to the states i mean uh devastated obviously and not only devastated but now what now what you know whatever plans she had are now obviously gone so she had to put her life together as best she could she she had been at school she’d studied english i believe and she went and started knocking on doors and eventually got a job at the new yorker magazine and then she moved over to the scholastic magazine and eventually became a teacher at the school of visual arts in manhattan teaching writing and that is when at age 40 she started to write poetry and she wrote a poem about her husband sam caston the brave journalist who was killed on that awful day and the poem is called operation crazy horse and here it is a grand kowloon hotel a hedge of red hibiscus a tiled pool a masseuse who pressed fragrant oil of almond into my body in the full heat of the sun elsewhere northeast of saigon a man beheld you and fired at the undertakers you were all made up and your hair was parted wrong so i smoothed it the way you would have liked someone shouted stop as if we were caught making love on the couch in my father’s house god knows what they feared unfamiliar streaks in your hair must have paled at the moment of terror and grown longer in the time since eerie as strands of ticker tape still printing such dark hair shocked white how afraid you were all i could do was hold you and there you go there is more to every story and more for us to learn and what we need to learn here in my opinion from all of this is that your decision and your actions make a difference and have an impact on the world again like this is a an incredible manual the squad leader makes a difference and and it doesn’t just apply to squad leaders it applies to all of us your actions make a difference and have an impact on the world you’re gonna leave a mark you leave an imprint on the world and you leave an imprint on the people around you so make it a good one well echo charles yes sir go ahead man well it’s true we do leave an impact on the people around us and we do make a difference and to make a difference we need to be capable okay so we do the right things for ourselves for the people around us we start with our physical health in my opinion as i always say so on our journey through improvement and maintaining physical health you know we need supplements i give you a hard time about just being able to press record sure because that doesn’t seem like a very hard job it’s not but what i just did to you is kind of a shitty thing to do isn’t it well you’re throwing out challenges and and i understand you know i’ve come to understand these things which is okay it’s okay for those that might be joining us for the first time sometimes the podcast can be a little much a little heavy and and so early on we realized that maybe a little decompression would be good i know i need it yeah i know i need it sometimes so so i’m sorry for setting you up with the freaking horrible job of going from that conversation that we just had into whatever it is you’re talking about i’m sorry bro it’s okay and you know what in in the spirit of of understanding and how should i say doing my part i should have took what you said and really kind of gave my thoughts on it because my thoughts can be a little bit like lighter than yours generally so it would be a little bit of a a transit a little smoother transition smoother transition yeah cause you just went straight into talking about you know yeah drinking supplements yeah you know yeah it’s yeah so it was kind of rough for sure still true what would your thoughts have been um i don’t know man that’s i guess that’s why i didn’t go into it because i was like dang i should just be quiet just for a little bit yeah you know maybe yeah that’s and that’s part of the thing that’s part of the deal is it could that could just be the end of the podcast i get it right but i actually don’t want to leave anyone that way to be honest with you i don’t want to leave look the point has been made we get it right it’s true yeah i don’t want to leave so i don’t want someone to press stop walk out and like that’s what’s going through their head yeah they walk into work also right we need a little we need to bring it back around right bring it back the world has darkness in it right we just saw that yeah we just saw that yeah by the way the author the the his wife fran caston she’s alive she’s in like east hampton or something she’s out there writing poems yeah maybe we’ll hear from her you know yeah i mean given the circumstances it’s like okay isn’t it it’s uh what do you call like good to meet you but not under these circuits yeah that whole deal that’s a common one anyway all right well how can we make a difference if we’re not capable right true we’ll just say it’s hard i would say we’re we want to make a good mark on the world yeah how do we do that what what how how do you suggest us doing a better job of leaving a positive impression on people and on the world i say keep your stuff together cool got it edited together clean yeah uh you know get it together keep it dude yeah dave burke over here so bored he’s reading freaking cans he’s reading ingredients from go i’m not saying you’re wrong he’s looking at that’s like a what do you call like a not vanity but he’s looking at his own can he’s like oh my goodness fyi i just happen to notice that these are two different cans so it caught my attention oh really oh i see that too now yeah so i told you i i guess i could be more vain than i am but honestly i’m just just now barely noticing that these are different cans of the same drink yeah because right before that you’re looking at your fingernails and like you’re you know i don’t know if you worked out today you’re looking at your physique i saw the whole deal i saw the whole deal so all good and oh or or he could be bored whichever well you’ve successfully lightened the mood all right well hold on you know i press record i do things from time to time nonetheless when we’re working out we need supplements joints get take a beating sometimes we’ve got supplements for your joints you need protein okay so if you’re working out hard and hard isn’t you know depends on who you are whatever you need a certain amount of protein to facilitate the gains or should i say the results okay ah you said gains i did you said gains you spelled it with a z i saw it the point is you need a certain amount of protein otherwise not we buy not going to recover recover correctly do you know the protein range yeah not much yeah see yes one gram no what go ahead you’re like shaking your actually i’m sorry i’m sorry i interrupted you go ahead how many what one gram per lean but one gram per pound of lean body mass yeah i think that’s correctly i think that’s the old school it’s actually less than the new school okay the new school is a range from 0 6 okay to i mean one that’s high one gram per you know stuff yeah it might it starts to level out i think at like point eight or something like this okay nonetheless not everyone knows that is what i’m trying to say so and furthermore not only do do not a lot of people know that it’s hard to do that unless you’re like just that’s your jam you know you’re planning the week and all that not all of us do that you know i didn’t realize that so look let’s say you have 180 five pounds of lean body mass and you’re trying to get the point seven we’ll say it’s a lot of protein not for you i’m not no problem not for you i know but i’m just saying for the rest of us you know like when you don’t think about sum everything up that echoes trying to stand right now you need more let’s say i didn’t say any of that okay what if i just said hey you need more people to be like all right you have failed points describe why need milk i’ll stand down but can you hurry a little bit i’m standing down but okay you just like we get the mess do you wanna do you though do you get the message i think we get the message bro i honestly i don’t think you do and that’s why i’m here oh see if it was between you and dave you’d be like drink more okay it tastes good they’ll be like bread you know you think a lot of stuff tastes good anyway take them off bro you get it some discipline go you never bring it like this i like it anyway speaking of discipline go okay and and bear with me here bear with me so discipline go it’s a thing it tastes good it’s a little drink kind of like a soda mm-hmm yeah i mean okay it’s not like a soda but it’s like a soda so and i’m gonna tell a little story short so you know how like when you go to the movies right you go to the movies yep do you get no soda and popcorn at the movies sure dave burke soda popcorn i use sometimes right yeah yeah i understand so you go to the movies you get your soda you get your popcorn you just have to you watch the movie with your kids it’s awesome right you come home and you kind of remember whether it be later that night or the next day you’re like oh yeah that was a cool movie like man but i ate that whole thing of popcorn you know many calories are in popcorn in junk calories too by the way there’s a difference i have no idea it’s a lot it’s like 2 000 it depends on how big the popcorn is and then you got the soda right and there’s a small tinge of guilt that comes with you same thing with the brownies same thing with the other stuff that you eat don’t act like oh the pretzel pretzel wrapped hot dogs that my wife made for me on super bowl sunday i somehow might i forget where everyone was but like they came out of the oven and my fam wasn’t around and i was like i’ll just have one or two while my family’s not around i racked it i had a half a rack half a tray i crushed them how big was the tree uh i don’t know this is like a cookie type oh like a sheet like a regular standard yeah like a stainless steel it must have been at least i’m gonna go ahead and say 20 20 of them 20 of those things can you figure like no like no factor that’s why 300 calories per probably maybe two they’re really small yeah but those are like sausages with freaking straight up biscuits wrapped up like okay that’s who knows oh yeah it sounded nice but and you i get it like you’ll just go punish you know you’ll pay the price the next day that’s the protocol i get it’s the next day a lot of us we got a little bit more like guilt and we’re like man i kind of just shouldn’t have done that you know anyway the point is when you drink the discipline go and the malt too by the way you get that same sort of satisfaction that you would have had with the soda or the freaking oreo cookie shake from the drive-thru or wherever you get that same front end but you get a way better backhand you see what i’m saying well you get actually positivity exactly right it’s actually better what was weird was i kind of thought about it because i had a milkshake with a banana by the way oh and the next house like man last night i had that dessert i was like wait the dessert wasn’t something junk it was something good yeah so it’s like you get the refreshing you got a double positive hit actual protein getting to your point seven yeah yeah then you’ve got the not even guilt-free but positivity yeah so this is like across the board win-win front end backhand tactical strategic all good stuff appreciate that they’ve got a bunch of other stuff there super krill vitamin d3 cold war war your kids mole you’ve got all kinds of good stuff you can get it from jockofield com and by the way if you subscribe to any of these things the shipping is free because we know that that was kind of an issue people are like do i want this stuff but shipping is expensive we’re trying to allow people to more easily stay on the path and also if you’re just if you’re just a person that doesn’t quite stay on track that doesn’t quite it’s a thing do things that they’re supposed to do and they end up saying well i actually ran out of joint warfare or whatever just subscribe echo charles just subscribe if you subscribe it’s coming yeah and it’s free shipping get some uh jackalful com also you can get the you can get the the drink at wawa chain wide by the way chain wide apparently there’s some insurgency happening some other some other brands are trying to you know maneuver and they’re getting ambushed so i appreciate everyone going in there and and and just getting after it clearing shelves yeah and it tells kind of a good story corey corey he he he went in with a cooler he literally clearly he posted it he literally cleared cleared the the can the the fridge out yeah you can imagine the guy at the front desk or the cashier guys like bro why do you have a cooler in here he’s like oh cause i’m gonna go my current favorite thing to do is i get tagged on on instagram all the time of people doing that and i just put it on my story and it’s just story after story of people going in tagging wawa and just emptying the shelves and like buying everything they can it is awesome i appreciate everyone getting after that and you can also get all the supplement the whole line at uh vitamin shop and like i said free shipping if you if you subscribe if you might also need jiu jitsu a jiu-jitsu you might need a rash guard you can get all that stuff from origin usa com by the way implement it implement it originusa com you can get that there all this good stuff and plus if you if you ever are off the mats of justice and you need something to wear because we know what we’re wearing on the mats right we’re wearing our origin ghee or our origin rascard but if you’re off the master justice and you need clothing which you do you can get jeans you can get boots you can get dang we got socks coming what you get everything we’re getting there we’re getting where we get everything all that’s all that’s made in america made in america which is which is what we are doing to rebuild manufacturing in this country so go to originusa com get whatever you need also if you need more stuff you know to wear off the mats and on by the way go to jackalstore com now here you can find your more disciplined themed i don’t like the word theme but more disciplines slanted skewed apparel okay here’s the thing you do want to represent one when you’re on the path you do think about what you are representing though let’s face it you you do run the risk of representing the same thing your neighbor across the street who’s not on the path by the way is represented are you an elitist my neighbor across the street is a badass well then okay then there you go that’s cool but i’m saying you do run the risk got it see what i’m saying look if you have discipline equals freedom or you have good or you have like one of the hoodies or something like this you don’t run that risk you see what i’m saying so if you’re gonna represent on the path here this is a good place to get the stuff and it’s a good move overall where do you get it jockostore com we have a little subscription situation going on too called the shirt locker that’s a different it’s not different but it’s kind of different jack it’s a shirt every month cool new design exclusive you can’t get them in the store otherwise can’t these new ones you’re you’re into this elite kind of elite shirt where i’m i’m just i’m just letting them know letting everyone know nonetheless called the shirt locker it’s on jocklestore com so yeah sign up for that man if if you think that that’s cool if you think you want to represent in that way that’s a good good good deal roger that subscribe to this podcast also we got the jocko unraveling we got the grounded podcast we got the warrior kid podcast we also have the jocko underground jackoground com where we give some amplifying information other things different topics different subjects behind the scenes we’re setting up for a q a right yeah and that’s like questions like okay so i get it dave burke jocko echelon front they get it they’re gonna say hey how do i how do i get buy-in from the team right that’s a common one it doesn’t have to be pro uh questions about like work what to do at work you can be outside of work yeah anyway we’re setting that up yeah it’s set up so you go to questions at jackonground com submit your question submit an audio or video question too dude i that’s you’re proactive you just made that happen the squad leader makes a difference i make a difference yes sir i’m trying over here doing my best are you the trooper squad leader if you if you want to if you want to get all this and you want to support us you can go to jockowunderground com it costs eight dollars and 18 cents a month which is a number with layers and and that just protects us from number one having to be a slave to sponsors and protects us from if we if from people saying they didn’t want to they don’t want to host us anymore they can try it we got it we’ll be standing by execute contingency plan so thanks to everyone that’s supporting on that we got a youtube channel we got a youtube channel that echoed charles he makes videos and i am the assistant director of the good ones which is important to know also origen bjj has has it they’re putting some cool videos up as well check that one out check out that one also psychological warfare and album don’t forget about this okay sometimes we can shy away from the support that we need it’s insane sometimes we need this support when we want to slip on the diet you know skip the workout turn a workday into a rest day let’s face it that’s a thing anyway psychological warfare is an album where jack was telling you why you just shouldn’t do that and then you won’t do it so anyway you can find that on amazon and you know wherever you buy mp3’s boom psychological warfare is there for you also flipsidecanvas com my brother dakota meyer making cool stuff to hang on your wall the coolest stuff to hang on your wall you’re gonna hang something on your wall is if you’re going to hang something on your wall don’t you want to look at it and say that’s from dakota meyer yes that’s a hundred percent i can’t believe i’ve never said that before yes that’s 100 what i want if i’m hanging something on my wall i want it to be from dakota meyer yeah i agree with that flipsidecanvas com if you want that we got a bunch of books final spin what is it it’s it’s an it’s a knob dave assessment you’ve read final spin oh i have assessment i’d like i actually kind of secretly want to know where i sit in the log of readers where am i actually you know what i haven’t gotten you i haven’t gotten you the final version the final final one it is not just a book i can tell you that for sure dang yeah interesting it is they’re going to have a hard time figuring out where to put this one on the bookshelf yes they put it over there and they put it over there in the yeah like like where does it go they have a hard time my my validation that it wasn’t just me just digging what i was reading is i shared it with my wife which i gotta be honest i don’t there’s not a lot of crossover in my world that i’m doing like i don’t share all this stuff with my wife we got other stuff going on i don’t like you know bombarded with work stuff you’re not talking about battles in the bond soon nope i’m not how was the podcast it was awesome okay cool what do i need to do around the house how can i help i know i’ve been gone for seven hours i shared this with her and she just burned through it i think in two days you know and burned through it was like 10 o’clock at night gets into bed and she stays up way too late and finishes in two nights and she’s like that was really good that’s when i knew like my version of it being good had to be validated by a totally disinterested third party with no no bias yeah she was totally stoked well interestingly my mom uh so you would think what you just said like oh bias right you’d think oh i send it to my mom that’s a given right you know my mom my mom like it’s because she was an english teacher and so she’s just there to just just she’s just there i would say throw darts but she’s not there to throw darts she’s there to huck machetes at your work at my work right and so i sent it to her for a final read and she sent me a text that said like halfway done i am loving this book that was complete shock yeah in fact i told life about it because life was life was with me in new york city when extreme ownership made number number one new york times bestseller which is which is like sort of the thing the cool thing for a book right and i i called my parents on speakerphone and and lace like standing there listen i’m like hey i just want to let you guys know you know we made new york times best-selling list you know with the book that i wrote with leif and my mom’s like oh well we’ll see how long it’s on there for him i was like cool yeah i guess we will [Music] so a positive review yeah and it’ll be interesting you know you go into a bookstore and they have i guess categories whatever they yeah i’ll be interested to see where they put it i will too it’s going to be it’s going to be very interesting so we got that if you want to pre-order that thing it’s also it’s all hey why pre-order well so you can get it because once again we don’t want you to not get it we don’t you want definitely don’t want you to not get a first a dish it’s a big deal when you you want that first to dish and here’s the other thing the the publisher my publisher do you think they’re nervous about this they are nervous they’re nervous because they’re like you you just suppose we’re supposed to write leadership books i’m like what about all those kids well yeah that too are you gonna write a novel don’t you just want to stay in your little lane over here no so put them at ease before they freak out so final spin leadership strategy and tactics field manual the code the evaluation the protocols discipline equals freedom field manual the way of the warrior kid four field manual way the warrior kid one two and three miking the dragons about face by david hackworth extreme ownership and the dichotomy of leadership echelon front it’s a leadership consultant so you can hear dave and i talking about it today this is what we do we solve problems through leadership go to echelonfront com for details ef online it’s leadership training for everyone efonline com it’s it’s where you can get your whole team training tomorrow it’s tomorrow you have to do something crazy enough to contact that you can go to echelon go to efonline com you can start training tomorrow the muster in 2021 we got these things lined up go to extreme ownership com it’s our live event all these have sold out these are gonna sell out to ef overwatch if you need leaders inside your company go to efoverwatch com and we have leaders that understand the principles we talk about they can go in your company and help you win and if you want to help service members service members active retired you want to help their families you want to help gold star families check out mark lee’s mom mama lee she’s got a charity organization if you want to donate or you want to get involved go to america’s mightywarriors org and if you want more of my protracted parables or you need some more of echo’s perplexing postulations or you just crave some more of dave’s super serious sagas [Music] you can find us on the interwebs on twitter on instagram which echo only knows as the graham and on facebook dave is at david r burke echoes at echo charles and i am at jocko willink and thanks to all the people out there in uniform all of you all the military the police law enforcement firefighters paramedics emts dispatchers correctional officers border patrol secret service first responders and all of your families waiting at home thanks to all of you for making a difference every single day with what you do and everyone else out there keep learning keep evolving and never forget that your decisions and your actions they make a difference not just in your life but in the lives of other of other people and don’t just go through life don’t just go with the flow be intentional about what you’re doing set things in order leave a positive mark in the world you do make a difference and until next time this is dave and echo and jocko out
My WordPress Blog