this is jocko podcast number 268 with echo charles and me jaco willink good evening echo good evening and also joining us tonight is leif babbitt a good evening life good evening good to be here all right so i can’t say it like that who can though well i don’t know you put your own spin on it right i mean that’s hard when he gets warmed up it just does it so well though i mean the bar is high we were we were backstage at the first jocko live actually was it was it wasn’t jacqueline was in new york city oh yeah and someone someone said something to you like oh or are you nervous and you said well a little bit and then well okay i’m trying to craft the conversation maybe that didn’t happen the way you’re looking at me somebody was talking to you and somehow you rehearsed your lines no no you wasn’t it was tai was making the video and you were like you know i’m over here going over what i’m gonna say and no that was me taking a nap or something i think it was just in passing tai was making a video okay you were doing nothing like you’re doing whatever you’re doing and then i was just saying good evening i decided to be funny i guess because that’s your job what’s funny is i jammed that up did you if you listen for which one for that for 160 in new york yeah when i say good emails like good evening like i jammed it up i think in that weird you have one job one time you have one child is the pressure greater on you right to get those words right exactly since they’re limited exactly right well what was crazy about that was like no you didn’t know what i was going to talk about no and the only person that knew what i was going to talk about was me and i knew i was going to go out there and talk about seth and it was going to be like as hard of a thing as i could possibly have to go and talk about and so you’re all kind of hey you know cool this is a crowd it’ll be fun and i’m sitting there thinking how am i going to get through this and then i do get through my part and then you screw up your part uh thankfully in a way i screwed up my part before you did your part you know uh i knew something was kind of i don’t wanna say off because it wasn’t off but something was a little bit different when you rolled up like when you came onto the stage wait a second something’s different right now because i didn’t know what was going on at that time yeah but which is weird i didn’t give you any heads up at all no sir you did not what a savage savage that’s all hey man it’s real yeah you did that to me at the the jocko live in austin as well like no heads up whatsoever and you read you know reading seth’s words and talk about us working together and stuff he’d written about me that i never even heard you know heard before and uh it was i was like bawling my eyes out in the background actually you came up to me afterwards if you go you go how about a heads up next time and i go sorry bro you go i was openly weeping and i was like dang that’s rough uh yeah um well so anyways let’s hear your good evening one more time leave i mean what do we got good evening there you go i mean everyone always everyone always likes the lathbab and texas batman thing that you yeah you’ve got going on right i agree i guess you can just gargle rocks or uh yell and scream over the sound of gunfire do you remember when we were in south africa on the radio i do have you ever shared that story with uh anyone in your life particularly the person that you’re married to we’re on this radio show it’s a big popular radio show in south africa and you know we’re getting interviewed about leadership and we’re talking and these these females are calling into the show and they’re like that man’s voice is amazing i can’t do a south african’s voice but it was uh it was pretty funny wait that’s is that public that that interview it’s on youtube right now it might be yeah i think i saw that it was pretty funny i remember you guys being in south africa on the in in that radio show and it’s on youtube okay well there you go we can look it up there you go we can tag it wait what do they say we’ll put that in the show notes i would say that but i know that there’s a limited chance of you putting anything in the show notes what’s the show notes uh i don’t know it’s on on the podcast you know you can put youtube the description description but also on people do that on do you know when people put a a podcast on itunes for instance you can put links in there echo yeah you can put them in the show notes so people say i’ll link it in the show notes all right so i’m not making any remote promises about anything mean in the show notes i guess you can use your google fingers if you want to see leif getting complimented by the ladies of south africa or let’s say some of the ladies in south africa it’s on youtube it’s it’s it’s out there all right so now that we’ve gotten through that let’s get into the subject of the night the subject of the night is the squad leader makes a difference the squad leader makes a difference and with decentralized command which is the fourth law of combat leadership this is undisputable it’s undisputable that the squad leader makes a difference because with decentralized command everybody leads you want everybody to be a leader and lately i have been talking about the fact that the purest and highest form of decentralized command is actually culture and if you have a strong culture inside of an organization then the people in the organization at any level can make decisions based on the culture of the organization just based on the culture they can figure out what to do if you have a strong culture if it’s we take care of the customer think of how many decisions you can make if you know hey our culture is to take care of the customer you can make all kinds of decisions if your culture is we have the highest quality we make the highest quality product oh should i cut the corner here no you shouldn’t should i should i get a little cheaper material to put in here no you shouldn’t we make the highest quality product which means that culture drives decision making we have the best value we give the best value oh what does that mean we’re going to try and maintain that low price we can make decisions you know what we can shave off a little bit of money there and we can get a better value for our clients so you can make all kinds of decisions with that and the military has culture too and units in the military different units in the military right down to the platoon level have a culture that can also drive decision making it can drive good decision making actually and it can also make it can also drive bad decision making right if you have bad culture it can actually drive bad decision making so real obvious example bad culture is a bad culture of blaming others of not taking ownership and if you’re not taking ownership you have a culture where nothing ever gets fixed that’s what’s happening so if our culture is to blame everyone else we’re not we’re not going to improve we’re not going to get any better obviously again if we have a culture where we’re cutting corners i don’t worry about it that’s when accidents happen if we have a culture where we’re looking out for me right i’m that’s looking out for for jocko well then um we’re not covered moving for each other i’m not there to cover and move for someone that needs help if i’ve got a culture of micromanagement guess what no one’s going to have any initiative because the culture is sit around and wait and get told what to do so you can see how these cultures drive bad decision-making of course culture can also drive a good decision making right with with good culture if you’ve got good culture if you’ve got a culture of ownership if everyone in your team is has got the culture where hey we take ownership we solve problems guess what that culture is going to drive people to say hey you know what that’s my fault let me fix it so we want that culture of ownership we want the culture where people don’t cut corners we want the culture where people look out for their teammates we want culture where people are empowered and they make things happen so it’s it’s real obvious how powerful culture can be and i think sometimes people think about culture as is like non-quantifiable well you know they have a good culture but what does that really what does that produce what does that give you the reality is if you have good culture it is extremely powerful it’s the highest form of decentralized command and decentralized command is extremely powerful in its own right so then the question becomes okay how do we actually create culture how do we do that how are we going to create culture and the answer is if you think about it for a little bit the answer is that you create culture the same way that culture has always been created how does culture get created we have to tell the story we have to have we have to we have to share this story we have to explain what we’ve been through what we’ve done together who we are what our history is what we stand for and actually and actually why we stand for that and if you can carry on that story if you can tell that powerful story you can create a culture now we can’t just make the story up we can’t just we can’t we can’t just fabricate or actually no uh we actually can you actually can just create a a a story almost out of thin air and if you if you use that story you’ve used that lie to replace the story and you tell that lie for long enough it becomes the truth right 1984 that’s exactly what that’s the whole premise of 1984 we control he who controls what is it who controls the past consoles the president who controls the present controls the future no who controls the present controls the past and who controls the past controls the future whatever order you want to put those in if i can convince you that this is the story this is the history this is where we came from i can manipulate the culture so so it actually can be done but that takes like a massive kind of universal propaganda machine to make that happen and i think the the better way to do that and what we should do and what good leaders do is to base the story that develops into our culture based that obviously based in the truth the most powerful way to create a culture is to tell that truthful story to hold up those examples from the path from the past those those values that got us to where we are those heroes that stood for those values you tell that story and that becomes the culture and one of the strongest cultures that i’ve ever been around is the culture of the united states marine corps and they do it in a bunch of different ways but but what we’re going to talk about today is a shining example it’s a shining example of how to create culture because they have a manual they have a manual the manual is called the squad leader makes a difference think about this black belt move they make they make a document that’s called the squad leader makes a difference so obviously they want to have decentralized commands they want their squad leaders to step up and lead so they make a whole manual that’s called the squad leader makes a difference and it goes further to set the culture inside the document itself because in this book the squad leader makes a difference which is subtitles subtitled readings on combat at the squad level and it’s from the marine corps war fighting lab which is which is a legit name for something at quantico it’s put this thing was put together in 1998 by a couple lieutenants m obaldi no idea how to pronounce your name i apologize an a m otero so these guys put together this manual and you’re going to see that what it is actually doing is telling these stories and building a culture of decentralized command where everyone is a leader and the squad leaders can make a difference leif i was thinking when you were at the naval academy what examples how was that culture like when you when you looked at the marine corps they did did that culture permeate into the young life babin brain and pull you in that direction a little bit yeah for sure i mean we had some some outstanding uh not commissioned officers sergeant major that ran our pt and he come running by at four o’clock in the morning and yelling for the brigade of midshipmen to get up you know and uh it was yeah just there was there was a lot of that was uh in fact i remember on parents uh parents weekend so you go through like the plebe summer which is so you just show up in the naval camp it’s kind of boot camp at the naval academy it’s pl we call it police summer so you show up and they’re running all these midshipmen to boot camp you’re you’re kind of going through that boot camp style and toward the end of that your your parents shall show up for parents weekend and they can visit for a few days and see you and then they they take off but he was uh he was like talking to the parents he was like who here’s who here is from maine and uh and so you know a few people raised their hand like oh yeah he’s for me he’s like i’m from maine too the main part of paris island and he just starts laughing and it was uh just you know that was certainly instilled in us and everyone has to go through you know whether you’re going to be a ship driver in the navy or submarines or fly airplanes or or whatever you have to go through uh you know at least at least a two or three week program that’s kind of like ocs down in quantico it’s i mean they they do it at ocs and quantico for the marine corps so you get a taste of that regardless and uh so that whole the whole thing of every marina rifleman and putting folks through that was uh was very appealing to me and i went there because i wanted to be a seal uh but uh certainly uh marine ground was my second choice which i did not get selected for dang um two things isn’t it interesting the way that just saying that this guy would run by at four o’clock in the morning just makes you think good to go that’s number one and when i was going through officer candidate school which is also run by well the marine corps is are the are the drill instructors and we would we were going for a run and every day we’d run through like a like a officer real officer housing where the officers that were stationed in pensacola lived and you know every day we’d be singing cadence and then you go through there and you have to get quiet and they would just do like a quiet little cadence just to keep you in step and then you’d get through and then you’d start saying it again and you know it’d be four or five o’clock in the morning or whatever so one time we got this this one drill instructor wasn’t my normal drill instructor this other drill instructor took us for a run and he was he was new and he was all kinds of fired up and so we so we get to that area and he like gets real quiet and so you know he’s saying whatever the cadence was and then all of a sudden he he sings as the cadence he’s like get out of the rack like quiet and we’re all like get out of the rack and he’s like get out of the wreck and we’re like get out of the rack and he get out of the rack and so we’re five o’clock in the morning run by all these officers housing and by the end we’re just getting out of the rock and just screaming and that was a good time i was like so that’s what the marine corps does that’s what the marine corps does they make a human being say i’m from maine the main part of paris island that’s what the marine corps does and we must salute them for that so this book is one of those things when i when i’m on my when i’m on my track trails through the world i stumble upon these things this is one of those things i saw that title i’m like you’ve got to be kidding me what is this so uh the squad leader makes a difference reading on combat at the squad level volume one and by the way this is volume one i have not been able to find volume two three four five or six so maybe these guys got sent somewhere from the marine corps warfighting lab and didn’t ever make another one but let’s get into it here’s the forward in combat sometimes when i read these things i think every single thing that i’m about to read i just read it and stop this is one of those things so in combat the actions of individual leaders affect the outcome of the entire battle squad leaders make decisions and take actions which if which can affect the operational and strategic levels of war well-trained squad leaders play an important role as combat decision makers on the battlefield leaders who show initiative judgment and courage will achieve decisive results not only at the squad level but in the broader context of battle without competent squad leaders capable of carrying out of a commander’s intent even the best plans are doomed to failure so you know you hear about the general and the colonel and the captain and even the gunnery sergeant you hear about the marine corps leadership and and yes they’re outstanding but when you’re a corporal and you read this you think you know what i gotta get mine too think of how awesome that is and and from a from a you know from a business perspective how how how how do you what story do you tell your employees what story do you tell the people that work inside your organization what story do you tell them do you tell them that that that they are decision makers do you tell them that their judgment and initiative will drive results at the strategic level do you ever tell you to team that that’s how you set the culture that you know as you’re reading that i’m thinking about as a student of history and i love reading history books and obviously you do you know you’ve done some amazing books here on the podcast but we always talk about it from the big you know the big the commander the general you read you know julius caesar maneuvered his his t or alexander the great did this or uh napoleon did this or patton moved his army here and uh he might have been making some overall decisions but the army that’s moving is is the the front line leaders out there the squad leaders that are executing that and making it happen and i love the way we do that echelon front we’re our definition of leadership as everybody is a leader and you said something uh recently that i i hadn’t thought about it that way but we’re okay who is actually a leader if you interact with humans in some way and actually need them to go in a direction and work together or provide a resource or support then you actually are a leader and i think when you see yourself that way uh i mean the most powerful armies in the world the most powerful teams companies in the world are going to see themselves where everyone sees themselves as a leader able to solve problems and make things happen and move the team forward in the direction they need to go yeah that’s um and that’s one of the best things about this podcast is that i get to i get to read books not written by the general not written by the admiral but written by a rifle one of napoleon’s rifleman or a machine gunner and stalingrad like that’s that’s where that’s who we’re hearing from and what’s what’s what’s powerful about that is then you get to see you get to know you get to learn how that leadership is perceived by the troops on the front line i mean that that podcast that we did about stalingrad where you they were hearing hitler talk about them being gone they were still there they were surrounded they were fighting for their lives and they were hearing the broadcast of hitler saying it was a great sacrifice and they stood to the last man they’re like we’re still here what are you doing give us help give us support let us let us break out no and you realize oh those well those people on the front lines they do they they make such a big difference and if you set the culture correctly they will have even more impact goes on this this public this publication illustrates how bold imaginative squad leaders impact the outcome of a battle or campaign the historical examples here represent some of the cases in which squad leaders were able to change the course of history did i just say a squad leader changed the course of history yes i did in each case the squad leader had to make a quick decision without direct orders act independently and accept responsibility for the results short lessons are presented at the end of each story these lessons should help you realize how important your decisions are to your marines and your commander in combat you must think beyond the squad level you must develop opportunities for your commander to exploit your every action must support your commander’s intent you must be competent in the combat skills required of a combined arms leader you are the primary warfighter of the marine corps boom freaking legit i think about how often like how different that is right from the culture of centralized command where the the senior leaders like we or the frontline troops just don’t get it they don’t know what’s they don’t understand and then and then the frontline troops are like the the guys up in the ivory tower you know the senior leaders they don’t get it they don’t understand what’s going on here versus it you know where people are just sitting around waiting to be told what to do versus the the team that’s actually empowered to step up and lead and make things happen and that team is just unstoppable unstoppable here’s some quotes that this thing starts off with the most brilliant plan depends for its tactical execution on the squad leaders poor squad leaders may ruin the best laid plans first rate squad leaders often save badly devised plans the squad leader is the sole level of command that maintains direct contact with the men who do the actual fighting it follows then that the squad leader is to be trained as a tactical commander and as an educator of his men that’s interesting because you know when we talk about span of control and on the battlefield you know you can have four five six guys and you can pretty much control them you can pre you can you can you can make things happen you know when you’ve got four five six guys maybe seven it starts getting really wonky at eight but that’s because you can see them they’re right there you can you can move four feet and you can grab leaf and say hey move a little further forward you can actually just make things happen through direct supervision so that’s that’s that’s very important to remember that these squad leaders are the ones that actually are have the contact to make things happen you go up one level you go from the squad to the platoon well that platoon commander can’t get to that kid over on the left flank he can’t get to that machine gunner up on that knoll he’s not gonna be able to get there he’s not gonna be able to make it happen and that’s why as you grow you have to get better at the laws of combat you have to get better decentralized command you have to get better to keep things simple you have to get better prioritize next year you have to get better cover move because you don’t have that direct control anymore you can’t just you know use your force of will to make things happen go grab a guy you need to get over here it doesn’t work anymore continuing on the idf this guy’s israeli the idf squad leaders are trained to command independently in the field modern armies operate in small dispersed formations all levels of command must be trained to think and act independently modern weapons which provide small groups of men greater firepower and flexibility of movement call for a high standard of command at all levels and this is something that we’ve been able to walk through and i apologize that it hasn’t been chronological in nature but when the machine gun came we had to start using decentralized command because if we’re all bunched up together we’re all going to die together so that’s when world war one towards the end of world war one we started getting decentralized command and started having the squad like you’re not going to be with me anymore hey leif when we go on this mission i’m not going to be able to give you any guidance at all as the company commander because you’re going to be 400 meters away we have no radios and you just are going to have to make things happen you have to know what we’re trying to make happen you got to go do it on your own so this idea that you know when you saw the the red coats right line up and we’re going to march together that’s the old way of war i mean the the romans the phalanx like all the old formations of war it was like we’re all together we can just maintain good control over this big group easier because we’re all co-located and modern warfare brought us to hey i’m not right there i we launched on this mission and i might not see you again until the mission’s complete so the people that are out there leading have to know what they’re doing why they’re doing it they have to understand the commander’s intent and they have to take initiative to get to that goal and he fall he concludes this with the squad leader therefore the squad leader is therefore to be trained technically as an officer not as a corporal and that’s from yigal alan who is a field commander in the israeli defense force and he actually was a scout with the brits in world war ii fought in syria fought in lebanon founding member of the israeli strike force so some experience uh first they kicked this whole thing off and this was this was actually a big shocker to me they they kicked us off by talking about corporal alvin york united states army right so i expected this to be all marines but the marine corps is awesome and they said hey these are awesome examples of where a squad leader made a difference and we’re going to use them france 1918 the muse argonne offensive was the last important battle of the first world war on the night of 25 september 1918 over one million american soldiers moved up to relieve the french forces on the front lines the american advance that ensued swept easily through the first two lines of german trenches and then progress slowed facing stiff resistance the reserve division was called up corporal alvin york served as an infantry man in the 82nd division york’s company started across a valley at six in the morning as they began to move the company came under heavy fire from behind a hill enemy machine guns mowed down the first wave of advancing americans no one knew where the deadly fire was coming from so york’s platoon sergeant decided to take the platoon on a mission to find it the platoon found a gap in the enemy lines and circled to the rear where they thought the machine guns might be the group of americans stumbled across two german litter-bearers whom they followed back to the headquarters of the machine gun battalion the americans walked right into the german machine gun command post opened fire and the germans immediately surrendered upon hearing the fire behind them the germans that were dug in near the command post swung their weapons around and began firing at the americans caught in the open in a hail of automatic fire the americans instantly took casualties corporal york took aim at the nearest machine gun about 25 yards away and killed the man behind the gun he continued to fire each german who popped his head out of a foxhole after watching his troops being massacred by this lone sharpshooter the german major in command yelled to york if you’ll stop shooting i’ll make them surrender work on your marksmanship people work on your marksmanship within minutes the remaining american troops had captured 90 german prisoners but they were behind enemy lines corporal york took charge and quickly organized his platoon he decided to move back towards friendly positions straight through the german lines york ordered the german prisoners to carry back the american wounded every time the group came upon a german position york told the captured german major to order the troops to surrender the well-disciplined german soldiers never questioned the order and by the time york’s small band reached friendly lines they had acquired 132 german prisoners in their wake york’s platoon left 35 deserted german machine gun positions and a significant gap in the german defenses this gap which york had created was a vital element to the success of the division’s advance this advance gave momentum to the american forces and contributed to the success of the offensive phenomenal here’s the lessons corporal york was quick to exploit the opportunity which had been created he realized that his actions would affect the outcome of the battalion’s advance and made decisions which supported his commander’s intent his strong situational awareness guided him in taking action which had decisive results you know when you think even when i think when i think of world war one soldiers you i definitely envision someone that’s much more obedient than what we have in the modern all-volunteer military today right you’ve got someone that’s hey i mean i would say the whole world was more obedient right you had a much more stringent class structure in america you had the much further separation between the officers and the enlisted and so so for this kid to be like oh i got this it’s it’s incredible it’s incredible to show that kind of initiative and i think the fact that it was in world war one is even more incredible think about what what would happen if he was just standing around waiting to be told what to do in that situation though which is what so many leaders we work with think is the right call like you should just wait to be told what to do and then do you know carry on orders without question and uh and he would just be standing there waiting to be told to do and and they would fail and maybe the whole offensive fails as a result instead of someone who actually understands the why understands the commander’s intent and the purpose behind what what they’re trying to do and can take the initiative to go make things happen yeah you know what uh i often say and i wrote about i don’t want yes men right i don’t wanna know someone that’s just like yup hey sounds good jocko sounds great you know you want someone that’s gonna push back and like hey i don’t agree with that wait what about this you take that one step further it’s like i want someone that’s just gonna figure out what to do and go freaking execute it right that’s what we want that’s what we’re trying that’s what we want that’s what we’re trying to grow that’s what we’re trying to develop in our supported leadership is that they’re gonna look even look beyond even look beyond what i can see and say oh i bet if i did this it would be a good move and maybe they’re batting 80 percent i’m good with that i’d rather have somebody batting 80 on 80 good moves that took initiative and made things happen and 20 of the time i got to go oh life hey hold what you got man don’t go over there yet much rather have that initiative but that’s something you’ve helped me with as well though with because i think it’s a hard thing for a lot of leaders to accept it’s like well you know we got to come up with the right solution we don’t want to make mistakes and we want to move forward and you know when you’re you’re like listen 80 percent solutions that go 80 solutions to go right where if we’re never going to have a perfect plan so let’s let’s get the plan as close you know in a good direction and then execute and execute and execute and and have the initiative be default aggressive uh i think i think that’s i know it can stifle me uh and i’ve struggled with that and i’m i’m not executing because i’m trying to get it to the 97 solution you’re like listen 80 solutions start moving things forward execute and i think that’s very empowering to think about that you don’t have to have the perfect plan yeah you got to just go yeah very liberating to be like oh yeah i don’t care about that hey we we might not be oh yeah i don’t care you know we well what if you don’t care about that dude that hill over there yeah get there well do you want me to have a logistics i don’t care about that i want well do you want me to do it in the daytime i don’t care well do you want no i don’t care once you get that hill okay but let’s do it the the point i’m making here though is is you know even whether it’s echelon front or working together and tasking a bruiser in in you know there can be something like in my mind where i’m like hey you know jacob’s really good at this and i i got to make sure that jocko and you know has like this is the right plan and it’s going to meet every single thing that you know he wants to do so you start putting these self-imposed restrictions instead of like when you’re like hey man 80 solutions go bro let’s execute and that that’s it’s super liberating to think about it that way and you realize like hey what i thought you know i’ve got to get this thing perfect so you know jack was like yeah that’s good i actually don’t and i’m actually i’m actually failing if i’m not executing and i’m i’m sitting here trying to come up with a perfect plan yeah there’s uh some report you were trying to get and you were like hey you know what i haven’t gotten you this report because i i can’t quite figure out this little detail at the end to make sure that it’s a hundred percent and i just i i i’m just not getting it to you because i don’t want it to be inaccurate and i don’t want to have you like pissed and i was like bro actually i remember exactly i said have i ever sweated you for the details on anything in the past 15 years and it was funny you you kind of you tilted your head a little bit and you went nope and i was like why do you think i would start sweating these little like literally in meaningless meaningless uh details and you’re like roger i’m an idiot cool got it so no factor and that’s a that is a great example though because here i am stewing about trying to put together a multi-page report and you’re like hey bro just send me a just just say hey i don’t have the i don’t have all the information yet here’s what i think we’re doing here’s kind of the general you know direction we should go and as soon as you said that i was like just another reminder uh that it’s self-imposed restrictions and it’s it’s really uh it can cause all kinds of problems so yeah and and obviously that means i’m doing a bad job of you know telling you what the parameters are of success you know if i’m like hey can you tell me what these numbers are you’re like cool yeah but it’s going to take me three weeks to dive into all these details if i was like hey and i you know i was like hey dude i just need a little like ballpark where are we at okay got it because i can give you that in 13 minutes but you know it’s the it goes back to some of that implied implied commander’s intent right because the implied commander’s intent is that when i ask for something i need that thing right hey you know when jaclyn asks for something because he doesn’t ask for much when he asks for something he must want that thing really exact the implied intent is that i want the implied intent with me is basically i want perfection right that’s that’s that’s a complete implied intent and for some reason echo’s never really picked up on that platform no no that’s actually not true if i think about it like the the way there’s been some things where i’ve seen i found out after the fact what you did to reach a level of as close as a human can get to perfection on something where i’ve been like i didn’t expect him to do all that but he did it so that implied level of perfection just from my own stupid personality is like enough to make someone say well i better get this right before you know we go forward and that sucks and and and i talked about it at gettysburg i was like you’ve got to think about what your implied what your implied commander’s intent is and if especially if you’re going to ask them to do something that’s outside that normal implied commander’s intent and you know we talked about it with general lee and some of his some of his subordinate leaders that hey general lee was about kicking ass so we’re moving here what’s generally going to want me to do he’s going to want me to kick ass go forward but he said hey you know don’t go forward right now but they get that word they’re like yeah but it’s generally i’m gonna go get some and they messed things up so you gotta pay attention to that implied commander’s intent that just your personality has your own personality has a has a culture to it and you got to pay attention scary that was a uh that was some rare praise for for echo charles said we gotta note that down take a well-deserved well-deserved obviously thanks yeah yeah i mean i’m thinking like the first time we ever went to like travel to do the podcast and you had like a and i expected i was like i had my fingers crossed my toes crossed my ears crossed hoping that you know all this quote all this equipment showed up and we’d be able to you know we have some guests come in and it’s going to be there the time is valuable and all this stuff and i’m like thinking i hope this and yeah you had it all you know in the pelican case yep everything was there i was like right away squared away which is not you know maybe what everyone expects maybe some people have a different implied scenario all right next one sergeant henry and that’s i haven’t even said this yet that’s what this whole manual is it’s just anecdotal one-page stories where the squad leader makes a difference sergeant henry hennigan u s marine corps haiti 1919 following serious rebel uprisings the united states began a prolonged occupation of haiti in 1915 charlemagne peralta was the leader of the rebel army known as cacos the second marine brigade spent several months in unsuccessful attempts to topple charlemagne’s group henry hannikin a sergeant in the brigade devised a bold plan to separate charlemagne from the bulk of his troops and ambush him sergeant hannikin sent one of his most reliable men to become a member of the caicos banned in a short period of time the infiltrator had earned the outlaws trust then sergeant hannigan had his spy feed the caicos location of a marine unit that was vulnerable to attack i’m going to talk about putting the bait out there sends a little spy in there and says hey there’s going to be these marines they’re going to be vulnerable to attack henneken spy soon returned with information of a rebel plan to attack these marines as well as charlemagne’s location during this attack on on 31 october 1919 sergeant hannigan led a 22 led 22 local militiamen in an attack on charlemagne disguised as rebels this is you know this is freaking getting it disguised as rebels hannikin and his unit moved through several guard posts and boldly walked into the unsuspecting rebel camp when he was within 15 yards of you know where this story is going it’s going right where you want it to go when he was within 15 yards of charlemagne sergeant hannikin drew out his pistol and shot and killed the rebel leader in the firefight that followed dude in the fire fight that followed the small raiding party captured the rebel position and defended it from a series of counter-attacks the marines who were the target of the rebel attack had been warned by sergeant hannikin of the impending strike and were well prepared for the rebel attack the rebels were thoroughly defeated the morning after his act after the action sergeant hannigan reported his exploits to his commanding officer his commanding officer didn’t even know what he was doing he was just out there getting after it hennigan’s actions had routed more than a thousand outlaws killed their leader and virtually shattered the entire bandit resistance movement in northern haiti for his actions sergeant hennigan was awarded the medal of honor i mean what up talking talk about taking commander’s intent and just running with it default aggressive uh to the court right that is like the riskiest bunch of at of of actions right hey i’m gonna set these guys over here as bait i’m gonna sneak in there we’re gonna get dressed up as rebels by the way when i get in there i’m just gonna shoot this guy the first chance i get i i wonder had he had he had uh some direction or approval from his commanding officer if that would have gotten approved yeah no that’s that’s too risky don’t do it that that may have happened you know i every time i talk to tilt i’m like until i’m sorry if i was in charge man i don’t know if i would have improved any of your operations i’m going to go 24 miles into cambodia with four other guys and we’re gonna sit around and wait to get attacked by a freaking division of nva soldiers okay cool let’s do it you know as i think about that though a lot of people obviously you can be too aggressive right we got to be default aggressive but not not not too aggressive not reckless and it sounds like they they mitigated the risk they needed to obviously it was successful you know in that regard but i think what a lot of leaders miss is and really we we got a lot of scrutiny on our pretty bold and aggressive operations in ramadi back in 2006 is that by being default aggressive you can actually mitigate risk so by by going into areas where the the enemy there were insurgent neighborhoods that no no one else could get into they had no u s or coalition forces presence they had no expectation we were going to be there so we’d show up in places that would catch them off guard they we had the initiative they didn’t and it sounds like that’s exactly what happened in that situation and i think some leaders you got to think about that look you can actually mitigate risk by being default aggressive and something that you know you were uh you were all about attacking a bruiser and i think we utilized our advantage were you in the chow hall in the in the camp mark lee chow hall like early in deployment when our commanding officer was talking to me and he says you know what about all these these guys with ieds because i was telling them that we were going to be going on patrols and it’s going to be very dangerous and he said what are you going to do about these ieds and these guys that are putting ieds in the ground and i go we’re going to kill them and that was my mitigation plan which is a very good mitigation plan get in a position where you can kill those guys so your overwatch team sets up and you got people patrolling you kill the bad guys and he was like okay sounds like a good plan right and and yes and that that’s an example of how are you going to stay safe by being aggressive that’s absolutely true well just okay take the id threat as an example right if if we’re patrolling to an area where they have no expectation we’re going to be there the locals are out on the street i mean there’s we’re actually much safer from ieds than we are if we’re rolling down routes rolling down the main route where they’re expecting it to u s forces to be and that’s i think that’s a great example in in our ceo’s mind it’s like how do we do this this is dangerous and and i think actually thinking it’s actually less dangerous to be super aggressive and to be someplace where they have no expectation versus them sitting back and waiting to ideas where they know we’re going to be lessons sergeant hannikin displayed outstanding initiative that’s the understatement of the year and tactical proficiency okay maybe that’s the understatement here in devising and acting upon a plan to defeat a large rebel force his plan supported the brigade the brigade’s mission in haiti sergeant anakin accepted great risk but displayed the courage and nerve to see his plan through his bold action achieved decisive results with a small band of men sergeant hannigan was able to defeat a larger rebel force by adhering to tactical fundamentals his 22-man main effort attacked the enemy center of gravity the rebel leader without leadership the rebel force quickly disintegrated sergeant hannikin used the elements of surprise and deception to execute his attack surprise is one of the most important tactical fundamentals and was essential to this tactical undertaking sergeant anakin’s actions illustrate how tactical decisions at the squad level can impact the operational and strategic levels of war and can ultimately affect u s policy sergeant hanek’s attack greatly affected the balance of power in haiti lessening the turmoil in the country it was a major step towards ending the rebellion on the island so there you go it’s a strategic move and we always try and point out to companies that your frontline troops can have a negative strategic impact or a positive strategic impact and it’s even that’s even more accentuated in this day and age now that we have social media and you can have one employee at one of your stores either do something horrible and and really damage your reputation or do something heroic and really help your reputation so do you have you in place the culture that’s going to drive those frontline people to do something heroic or have you got a culture where they’re going to be driven to do something horrible i don’t know that’s on you your team the prospect of surprise is always the surest guarantee of victory that’s from von melinthin who’s a world war ii general he wrote the book panzer battles which we haven’t gotten to yet on the podcast we’ll get there no tactical action should ever be undertaken without the element of surprise speaking of germans this here i already thought this book was going to be about marines and now we already have army marine i certainly thought it was going to be about americans this is about a german so the the marine corps attitude is wide open sergeant wenzel german army belgium 1940 the german plan to invade france included the invasion of belgium and holland the french had not defended their border with belgium leaving it open to attack the belgians however had constructed a series of forts along the canals throughout the countryside the most formidable of these was even a male manned by 1200 belgian soldiers the powerful guns of even a male commanded the eastern approaches to the belgian border if this fortress was not eliminated the german army would have significant difficulty crossing the belgian border sergeant wenzel was a member of germany’s parachute forces must’ve been rad being a parish trooper in world war ii you’re the cutting edge of tech i mean what a few years earlier it wasn’t even an idea that you could huck a person out of a plane with a piece of with a freaky piece of cloth above them and they’d live and here they are just doing assaults this one they weren’t paratrooping actually on 10 may 1940 his paratroop company daringly landed on the top of even a male in gliders with the mission of silencing the guns of the fortress in order to allow the german army to capture bridges to the east when sergeant wenzel landed atop the fortress he realized his commanding officer’s glider had not made it to the objective this left sergeant wenzel in command of 80 parachutists in four-man teams the germans used flamethrowers and special-shaped charges to attack each gun turret sergeant wenzel commanded his unit from a captured pillbox the situation became tenuous when the belgians prevented the german reinforcements from arriving by blowing the bridge on the main route of the ground attack the paratroopers were cut off the belgians were also calling artillery on the germans and enemy infantry could be seen preparing to counter-attack the paratroopers and as i was reading this i was like wait a second enemy who are we talking about they’re talking about the belgians sergeant wenzel continued to lead the parachutists for three more hours as each belgian gun position was eliminated after the sun had set sergeant wenzel linked up with german forces from the east even a male had fallen sergeant wenzel’s actions allowed german forces approaching from the east to advance unmolested across the canals with a force of 80 men he had subdued 1200 of the enemy the defense of belgium was broken and the german army was able to rapidly defeat belgium and move into france the northern wing of the german army rapidly out flanked the french army and brought about a defeat to the french forces in a mere six weeks for his heroic actions and outstanding leadership sergeant wenzel was awarded the knights cross when you think about 80 men beating hundred i was sitting here in my mind i’m thinking how do you even do that but then you have probably heard me say don’t dig in don’t get in a position where you can’t get out of well if you set up a fort where you’re all in bunkered positions and all of a sudden the enemy gets in there and they can maneuver really quickly and you’re stuck in this pillbox or you’re stuck in this gun emplacement while the other while you’re bad guys the people that are trying to kill you are running around and sneaking around and can get free fields of fire because you’re stuck in this box that’s that’s in my mind how it happens i but you do have to recognize that even a male was probably the most im impregnable force fortress monster freaking monster it was like i think 200 foot high walls along crazy i mean so they they probably felt like completely safe no factor there’s no way the germans are coming but i i think what’s crazy when we talk about the omen surprise in that situation the germans knew they were coming i mean there was an attack coming obviously the german the germans knew they were coming they had every expert you mean the belgians knew that they were coming i’m sorry the belgians do the yes i’m sorry the belgians knew the germans were coming so the belgians they they they didn’t have the um the germans did not have the element of surprise there because the the but they didn’t know the manner in which the attack was coming and i think technology played a key role because i i believe that might have been the first use of glyphosate combat ever uh if i remember that correctly it was certainly one of the first if not the first and so they they didn’t have the expectation that they could land on top of this fortress it was also the first use i think of shape charges uh as well or that was an invented a brand new technology so they felt safe in these giant caissons of you know concrete and steel and uh i think what an amazing victory of of of just being default aggressive to the core hitting him even when they expected that the attack was coming uh they didn’t realize the manner in which it was coming and i think they just overwhelmed them with now they’re in the fortress and we felt safe what do we do now you know yeah and i think well the the technical i guess definition of surprise because you know if if in jiu jitsu right you know you’re going for an arm lock you know you’re going for an arm lock you know i’m trying to tap you out right you know i’m trying to tap you out you know i’m trying to tap you out so i’m grabbing your neck and you’re you’re you know i’m trying to grab your neck and boom i go for your arm right so it’s a surprise even though you know i’m trying to tap you out i’m still gonna surprise you it’s like a similar thing right we know we’re gonna get attacked but what are these weird quiet winged things coming from the sky and why are they filled with people 80 people versus 1200 that’s freaking insane lessons sergeant wenzel realized that it was his responsibility to complete the mission after his commanding officers glider failed to land on the fortress how’s that guy feeling afterwards he’s like so uh bummed lucky if he was still alive he’s still alive he worked with the existing plan and took advantage of the element of surprise that his airborne landing had given him taking charge of 80 men sergeant wentzel showed out sending leadership and courage as he commanded the efforts against the fortress for three hours against great odds sergeant wenzel’s understanding of the plan allowed him to shoulder the burden of responsibility of leading the assault force he clearly understood his pivotal role in the invasion of belgium and his actions fully supported his commander’s intent sergeant wenzel’s company level raid permitted a regimental river crossing which in turn allowed the german army to rapidly pour into belgium this eventually led to the fall of both belgium and france so there you go totally pivotal moment one thing i wanted to say i don’t disagree with you very often there but uh yeah it would from a personal perspective you’re like man i’m so bummed i wasn’t there wasn’t able to lead that but actually from a leadership perspective you should be absolutely stoked oh yeah that you’re absolutely you’re frontline leaders stop stood up made things happen got the job done even without you there and obviously that’s the the real testament of leadership that it’s about the mission it’s not about you yeah yeah no it’s uh the uh on a personal level of course the guy’s bummed on a professional level he’s totally stoked and yeah obviously on a personal level you’re like freaking totally stoked that your front line troops got the job done while you were uh you know while you were in some vineyard somewhere drinking wine i i will say uh as as a couple of times that i was acting tasked a commander in tasking a bruiser while there was some huge operation going on with most of charlie platoon and del platoon you were out in the battlefield i was like this is not fun see that’s says here ends this one of the quote it is not the big armies that win battles it is the good ones [Music] that’s field marshall maurice the sax which born in 1696 podcast 110 we covered his book and he’s a weird he’s got a weird background he’s all kinds of things he was like polish and german and french and and served in the imperial roman army but he wrote that book i think it’s my reveries on the war it’s a good book podcast 110 he’s got the title field marshall though that’s pretty cool remember we had a uh in task and bruiser we had it we had a captain obvious and uh and so he he was kind of over the top with like the obvious comments so we promoted him to admiral obvious and then it kind of went beyond that i was like look what sounds even cooler or bigger so he became field martial obviously yeah there’s only been i mean as far as i know at least in the in the u s navy there’s been only been one field marshal of the obvious which is a big promotion you know it’s a big promotion it’s almost like a five star it’s be honest it’s beyond that’s not quite a five star but it’s definitely you are definitely putting out some obvious stuff you don’t want to be field martial obviously not a compliment it’s weird too because you’d think when you got when you caught you know captain obvious right when you catch that nickname you’re going to start maybe paying attention right putting yourself in check when you get promoted what was the next promotion when you get promoted to admiral obviously like all right this is definitely gotta stop i gotta just just just bite my lip a little bit more still don’t still don’t quite pull it off guess what once you’re field marshall well i think once you field marshall own it right own it hey i got a real couple obvious points to point out sergeant rhubarth back-to-back german army france 1940 in the spring of 1940 the german army invaded france as the campaign campaign progressed the 10th panzer division was directed to cross the muse river and continue to attack toward paris the french realized that the river provided a natural obstacle that could be used to halt the advancing germans sergeant rhubarth the leader of a squad of assault engineers which was attached to the german 69th infantry regiment the germans were the germans controlled the east side of the river and the french were dug in on the west the french defenses included artillery and machine gun bunkers all along the river after a violent stuka air attack sergeant rhubarth squad attacked with infantry as his rubber boat reached the far shore sergeant rhubarth’s squad attacked and destroyed the nearest bunker on reassembling his squad sergeant rhubarth realized only two boats had successfully crossed the river leaving only his squad and one infantry squad on the west shore to create a breach in the french defenses how many people are supposed to go assault engineers i wonder how many boats they actually had only two made it okay undaunted he ordered his unit to attack another bunker with grenades and a satchel charge the french soldiers inside surrendered and their white flag was replaced with german colors this drew cheers from the germans on the far side of the river and demoralized the french defenders sergeant rhubarth then advanced and aggressively took two more bunkers creating a mere 300 meter gap in the first line of french defenses more german forces then followed him across the river after receiving a fresh supply of ammunition and four more men don’t worry you got four more men proceed sergeant rhubarth continued his attack and as enemy artillery started raining down on them sergeant rhubarth moved his squad quickly so that the artillery fire could not adjust to them his squad overtook three more bunkers and broke through the second line of enemy positions the second line of enemy positions after seeing several of their bunkers blown up the french forces assumed that they were being overrun their spirit crushed the french began to withdraw the action became a route as the advancing german pursued germans pursued the french forces for his achievement sergeant rhubarth received a battlefield commission to lieutenant as awarded the knighthood of the iron cross when i think now thinking to that the last one in this one let’s face it you got a small number of guys and you just start going ham just start attacking and people aren’t expecting you to do that right they don’t expect they see two boats show up they’re like oh whatever and then all of a sudden their bunker’s getting you know shaped charged on it and you’re getting jacked up going and moving quicker than these people that are in these static positions this is maneuver warfare right this is like the beginning of maneuver warfare i can move and you can’t just think of that think of that and then think of it from a leadership perspective think of it when you say this is what we need to do and now you’ve just dug into your position you can’t move anywhere and malay says hey jocko i know that’s what you want to do but what about you know what about this over here with these other clients and i go [Music] we’re sticking to the plan right it just doesn’t work whereas i’m like hey this is where i’m at right now what do you guys think or this is where we’re at right now but we might have to flex that’s all you need to say that’s all you need to say is hey i have an open mind that’s all you need to do is have an open mind present your idea with uh with an out right take your position but give yourself an out that’s all you need to do so you can maneuver a little bit i i think that mentality like from a defensive perspective you know i know cloudsmiths talked about the defensive position being you know the strongest and and your mentality is like you know you’re giving all the momentum all the initiative uh and i think particularly when you’re in a fortune where it’s even a male or you know this these positions they probably had no expectation that someone could be inside their fortress oh we’re totally safe here we’re totally good to go we have the advantage and so as soon as that happens i mean that doubt starts to creep in like man i you know you’re you’re done they’ve they’ve lost they’ve lost all morale people ready to surrender people ready to retreat i think that’s there’s something about just being on the advance that gives you i think all the advantage in the world did you when i was talking about the fact that they raised the german flag and that helped morale i had a vision of a certain american flag going up in random buildings over the city of ramadi sometimes i don’t know what you’re talking about boss i think that was very helpful for morale i could see the point or deny that uh that the uh the american flag was run up well you know you talk about hey we’re going in there and you know we get approval for these missions like you know we’re gonna be a sneaky sniper overwatch we don’t want the bad guys to know where we are a couple times we just just had to run the old stars and strikes up in the middle of the city and say we’re right here bring it and uh we did get uh in fact dave burke called me on the radio good deal dave good deal did call me on the radio to pass the word to us in one particular position that hey there were some troops massing and i was like bring it on this is that that’s exactly what we’re hoping for mass attack bring it on good morale for the troops i don’t know if that could have gotten it it was like plausible deniability for uh jocko his task at a commander there we didn’t exactly run that one up for well i guess there was some indication because uh well since we’re putting ourselves on report here we weren’t you weren’t allowed to fly an american flag period and we did have a american flag on cam mark lee 24 7 over time affirmative so maybe my implied commander’s intent was if you gotta run up the stars and stripe if you got to run up the stars and stripes make it tall make it tall and have a lot of machine guns pointing in all directions which we did check lessons sergeant rhubarth clearly understood the importance of rapid crossing of the river the commander’s intent at all levels from squad to division was to cross the river quickly in order to maintain the momentum of attack a delay at the river would have given the french time to strengthen positions closer to paris and possibly hold the german offensive so that’s a great that’s a really good simple example of commander’s intent to say hey listen the commander’s intent of this operation is we have to get across this river as quickly as possible and now everybody in your division knows we’re going to get across this river that’s the goal and we’ll do whatever i got to do to make that happen that’s a very nice clear example of what a commander’s intent is now everybody now everybody knows what we’re trying to do and if something changes or the enemy does something i don’t expect guess what cool i’m going to adapt i’m going to get across this river i’m going to take as many of my guys with me as i can taking on the role as the main effort of the german attack sergeant rhubarth displayed outstanding leadership shouldering the responsibility of creating a breach in the french defenses though greatly outnumbered on the far shore the squad followed their courageous and decisive leader sergeant rhubarth’s bravery and judgment allowed him to succeed despite being isolated and under attack by french artillery sergeant rhubarth did not wait for reinforcements but continued to attack the enemy deciding that rapid action was necessary this is where action versus inaction right action versus inaction what was i saying yesterday when we were recording ef online i was i was like nine times out of ten action is better than in action this is an example now is there a case where perhaps it would be better to wait for reinforcements but i’ll tell you what here’s the deal if you take action you know what we got enough guys what we’re going to push we’re going to go maybe you get stopped maybe you meet heavy resistance now you know that now you know you actually can’t proceed but if you go and you’re like hey actually we just we just took another bunker let’s take another one you take small steps you go forward you take action and then you learn from the feedback if the feedback would have been hey we just tried to take another bunker and we got shellacked okay well we’re not going to move anymore we’re going to wait for reinforcements fine what should your default mode be be aggressive make it happen his actions create an opportunity which his commanders took advantage of by pouring forces through the breach and decisively defeating the enemy sergeant rhubard’s actions contributed directly to his battalion’s crossing his divisions attacked and the eventual defeat of france five weeks later far better it is quote far better it is to dare mighty things to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor that neither enjoy much nor suffer defeat because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory or defeat and that’s teddy roosevelt medal of honor cuba his son medal of honor utah beach all right next up the marine corps brings it we got we got sergeant john basilone u s marine corps guadalcanal 1942 august 1942 the first marine division landed on guadalcanal encountering stiff resistance from the japanese defenders sergeant john bazalone served as a machine gun platoon sergeant in support of company c 1st battalion 7th marines on the night of 24 october sergeant basilone’s platoon occupied a key position in the battalion’s offensive perimeter on a jungle ridge just past 2130 the japanese began a ferocious attack in the dark rainy night intense fighting followed and soon the machine gun unit on basilone’s right was overrun by screaming japanese soldiers hurling grenades and firing rifles at the same time basilone’s machine guns started running low on ammunition basilone knew that the enemy that had broken through on his right were between him and the ammunition dump but he decided that if his gun teams were not resupplied the positions would fall sergeant bazillon took off his heavy mud caked boots stripped himself of all unnecessary gear and sprinted down the trail after returning with several belts of ammunition he set out for the unmanned machine gun pits to his right knowing that those heavy weapons were vital tools in the defense of the ridge when he got back to the gun positions he found two unoccupied machine guns jammed and ran back to get one of his own he ordered a team to follow him after bazillon’s gun crew reached their destination he immediately put them into action basilone lay on the ground and began repairing one of the damaged weapons once the gun was repaired and loaded he got behind the gun and began engaging targets the fight raged on and japanese bodies began to pile up in front of the machine guns at one point sergeant basilone had to direct his marines to push back the piles of bodies to maintain clear fields of fire several more times during the night sergeant basilone made trips back to the command area for desperately needed ammunition eight separate attacks were sent against the marines that night and basilone’s platoon fired over 25 000 rounds they were credited with killing an estimated 300 enemy soldiers playing a major role in thwarting the japanese attack this successful defense re-established the perimeter of the first marine division protected the vital airfield and led to the conquest of guadalcanal the first island taken from the japanese [Music] for his initiative resourcefulness and leadership in defense of the ridge sergeant bazalon was awarded the medal of honor lessons tactically sergeant basilone understood his role in the defense of the ridge and the intent of the company and battalion commanders his machine gun served a pivotal role in the company and battalion defense line plan he took numerous actions necessary to ensure his battalion’s success this included making the decision to weaken one position in order to fortify an adjacent unit’s position to his right sergeant basilone exhibited great leadership during the defense he went to great lengths to provide his unit with whatever tools were necessary to maintain the defense of the ridge his courage in braving enemy fire to deliver ammunition set an example for his marines unbelievable it’s it’s interesting when you think about they’re low on ammunition and his decision is i’m going to get i’m going to go personally get the ammunition and i can see a couple factors playing into that decision one of them being if we don’t have ammo we’re all gonna die so it doesn’t matter you know i could send another guy but and i could stay here to try and help you know maintain our position but without without ammunition we’re all going to die so the number one thing we need is ammunition and these guys know what they’re doing they got this but without bullets we’re gonna get overrun i’m going to do this that’s a it’s an interesting thing because you know sometimes a leader’s got to say okay this is what’s going on here’s the absolutely critical task and i’m actually just going to go do it right now because if it doesn’t get done we’re all doomed taking off his boots that’s a that’s hard thing for me to think about because my feet are soft man i think every time we turned on basil on road you know up there at camp pendleton going our ranges and and training uh you just think about think about uh you know the exploits of john basil that’s that’s incredible i you know i think the other thing too to think about here is these other these other illustrations we’re looking at i mean obviously amazing illustrations of a junior leader you know squad leader stepping up and making these calls but you know the previous ones in world war one and two uh you were talking about you know look vicious fighting obviously people are dying and and being uh you know shot and blown up or banned or whatever but those particular charges bonsai charges like that in uh in guadalcanal like there’s zero quarters gonna be given so you’re overrun and like everyone’s gonna get killed and and i think uh you know i think that was uh it’s a different situation you know uh and i think a lot more desperation there you can’t just throw up your hands and surrender like the germans did to sergeant or corporal york in that particular situation yeah i mean i almost didn’t even make it past the sentence in the dark rainy night intense fighting followed and soon the machine gun unit on basilone’s right was overrun by screaming japanese soldiers hurling grenades and firing rifles just dark and when you’re in dark and especially in a jungle like that and it’s dark outside and then you shoot your gun and now you’ve seen the muzzle flash like you can’t you can’t see anything now like it’s dark it’s black and so now the only thing you’re hearing is screaming japanese they’re throwing grenades which again is ruining your night vision you’re seeing muzzle flashes you’re shooting back at muzzle flashes freaking just horror it’s just horror yeah that’s that’s some unbelievable heroism there i i think you’re hitting on a good point though about prior the prioritizing execute piece and i think you know we generally would say leaders don’t want to be down in the details you want to be detached but you know to your point if you in the prioritizing execute scene if i don’t go do this now none of it matters we have to do that and uh it’s the existential priority if if we don’t execute this priority we will not exist anymore it’s an existential decision and there’s only you look and he probably looked said you know i got this guy he’s working that gun he can do that there’s one person that could actually make this happen right now and it’s me i’ll be back in seven minutes with some ammo fellas bazzy next up sergeant jacob pavlov russian army stalingrad 1942 in the fall of 1942 the german sixth army was pushing into the russian city of stalingrad the russian strategy was to draw the germans into the city and fight them from building to building sergeant jacob pavlov of the soviet 13th guard division was called into his battalion map room in order to recon a four-story house in order to develop a company plan to attack the building that night sergeant pavlov selected three men from his squad and set out on the reconnaissance so hey go into a recon to this building so that we can do a company size 150 man assault on this building when the four-man team reached the objective sergeant pavlov realized that the house was occupied by only a few german defenders he decided to seize the house immediately with his small team he quickly devised a plan and within minutes had attacked and taken control of the house using captured german machine guns and their own tommy guns sergeant pavlov led his men in fighting back wave after wave of german counter-attacks the next night sergeant pavlov sent a messenger back to his battalion by morning his group was reinforced with 16 men three anti-tank rifles two mortars and more machine guns his defensive preparations continued he directed the placement of a minefield around the building he ordered his men to take out the interior walls of the building to allow freedom of movement he posted sharpshooters and observers in the top of the building and fortified his command post a 200 yard trench was dug for resupply when the german that’s a lot of things to get done digging a 200 yard trench is no joke what is that digging a 200 yard trench and posting sharp shorters and removing the walls inside the building so you have better freedom of movement this guy was not playing when the german sent larger armored forces against him sergeant pavlov in improvised new tactics to fight them this is beautiful due to the limited elevation of the german tanks pavlov sent his machine gunners to the top floors and his anti-tank crews to the basement from these positions his men put accurate suppressing fire on the german infantry while destroying the army of the armor so a tank gun can only go so far up and so far down and apparently they couldn’t go far enough up to hit the roof where the machine gunners were and couldn’t go far enough down to hit the anti-tank weapons pavlov’s house proved to be a key russian position in the battle for stalingrad the building’s height allowed pavlov’s observers to call accurate artillery fire in any direction and snipers chalked up hundreds of kills from the attic upon finding his object this is the lessons upon finding his objective lightly defended sergeant pavlov ignored his orders and used his initiative to take the house by surprise this key decision fully submit supported his commander’s intent now what’s interesting about this is we dig in a little bit if i was sending you leif to go and do a recon of a building that we were going to attack tomorrow with 150 men i might not even cover the contingency we might not even cover the contingency of hey if there’s no one in there just take it like because you’re not expecting if you’re expecting to need 150 people you’re not expecting that four people so you might not even consider that hey and by the way if there’s light resistance just take it because even light resistance with four guys going into a defended position it’s going to be hard all you need is one person with a machine gun at the end of a hallway and you got real problems so the fact that he just said i think we hey i think we got this right get it done and and and there’s no radios there’s no radios they’re not calling up and saying hey hey jockle this is life i took the building send reinforcements no you’re just there oh you said he sent a messenger the next day four hours later after you hold station for 24 hours with four guys that’s that’s crazy that’s that’s the power though of the commander’s intent you know understanding the why and i think if you and certainly i mean the culture in the soviet army that time was was pretty centralized uh you know as far as decisions to be made so i i can’t imagine that he got briefed for that contingency i think that’s highly unlikely so someone just to be like hey but think think about what happens here though if he goes back you know he goes back and says hey there’s only you know it’s the only resistance there we can attack now and maybe maybe by the time they plan their attack and 24 hours later it’s reinforced and there’s 200 people there you know instead of a dozen or whatever it was so that’s uh that’s pretty amazing initiative to say okay what they actually what we want to do strategically is take this this key piece of terrain and i’m going to take it right now because there there’s the initiative here’s there’s the opportunity in front of me and you know to seize the initiative that’s that’s incredible let’s get it that’s leroy jenkins just showed up in stalingrad leroy jacobs but think about that though from a perspective leaders they they don’t you think that you don’t want your people to do that i don’t want them to go too far i don’t want to get too too aggressive i don’t want to you know you you wait for my orders and and so so there are plenty of leaders who would be upset with a squad leader like pavlov executing on something like that instead of actually saying that’s awesome and if i had a bunch of path loves we’re gonna we’re gonna win this thing yeah and that it’s gonna make all the difference i i used to tell the the task unit commanders and then i tell the whole task unit but i pulled the task into commander’s side and say hey you know there’d be chaos going on and they wouldn’t be getting anywhere they’d be bogged down they’d be getting shot up with paintball those problems would be happening during training and i’d say imagine if each one of your fire team leaders was doing something smart to move you where you wanted to go imagine how easy things would be and they’d look at me like dumbfounded because they’d know that’s true like let’s face it if a fireteam leader goes hey we got a wounded guy we need to move him and the boss just said we’re moving south to the rally point if we all know we’re moving south to raleigh point every fire team can can start to make that happen and that was one of the things that would help help move a task unit from centralized command to decentralized command just that little conversation which i had dozens of times hey what do you think how do you think it would be if every one of your fire team leaders right now was doing something that you wanted them to do that was good that was moving them towards your goal how how do you think that would affect you right now they’d be like it would be very helpful and i’d be like yes it would be why don’t you tell them all what that overall goal is right now you’re in the perimeter everyone’s everyone’s within 50 meters you could actually just yell it out right now we’re moving south to rally point alpha let’s go okay cool maybe one fire team leader looks at another fire team leader and says hey i got cover you bound back all right that’s two that’s it that’s eight guys moving in the right direction some other fire team leader goes hey we’re good we got dead space let’s move okay that’s another four guys movie see you just need to think that way you need your team to go out and make things happen but they can only do that if they know where they’re going i watched you have the the other side of that equation as well you know which is something we talk about a lot of echelon fraud and that’s when we would see the the the recognition in these young leaders of the power of leadership and whether it was a fire team leader or a squad leader or a machine gunner a machine gunner who wasn’t in charge of anybody else and they’re standing out in the street in this total you know this mount town the urban urban you know training environment and there’s paintballs flying around and explosions going off and total chaos and and uh that was it was so much like the leadership laboratory that you always talk about was just an incredible thing to watch and when i was out there you know my my last command as a senior leader just observing my my team and being there with you uh as as your your uh your mentoring and training folks and walking up to some some machine gunners and hey uh what’s going on right now they’re like i don’t know what’s going on somebody doesn’t make a call this is ridiculous what do you what do you what do you think you should do right now we should get in that building over there why don’t you make it happen i remember i’d get the bla this is the blank stare of like wait a second you’re telling me that i could get people to go over there and they look at me kind of tilt the head and say i’m gonna get in trouble if i do that i can’t do that actually no one is doing anything right now i just walked by your platoon commander and he was sitting there talking to your task unit commander about spaghetti for dinner because they have no idea what’s happening and if you don’t make something happen no one’s going to be eating anything tonight because we’re going to do this over and over again well but you would ask the question like hey do you think your dad’s getting commander wants you to be sitting out in the street getting shot right now and the answer is of course not of course they don’t want they’re tied up with some other problem or their spaghetti dinner or whatever it is but once you once they recognize the power of leadership and you encourage them to make that call and they’re like hey fall back in the building and now all of a sudden you’ve got leaders at every level that are stepping up and making things happen so so you having both of those conversations with the leaders both ends to encourage encourage their their junior folks to step up and make calls and then with the the junior frontline troops that are executing and then you actually have decentralized command that’s out there making things happen it’s a powerful powerful tool decentralized command sergeant back to the book sergeant pavlov showed exceptional leadership skills while defending the house he organized and led an effective defensive position for over six weeks he showed tactical improvisation and skill as a combined arms leader sergeant pavlov’s actions show how one leaders actually can contribute to an overall battle his platoon sized defensive strong point became the key position for his battalion which in turn became the main effort of the division freaking awesome it’s better to be it’s better to be on hand with 10 men than to be absent with 10 000 that’s from tamerlane a mongol emperor that would uh that would be uh genghis khan or genghis khan [Music] uh what that mongol emperor no it’s not him is it not it’s not him it’s not him i don’t even actually know if those two were related but same area of the earth that’s for damn sure and apparently apparently both of them are like kicking ass what was what was what was genghis khan’s real name i thought it was no it’s not it um it’s i gotta go back and review the book i read a few years ago you’re right it does begin with like a team and they make they made some kind of a movie about it echo that maybe you could help out here there’s a movie about it dude that’s a week for neither one of us to be able to talk about right more discipline go but i know that that’s not him um all right sergeant thornton british army france 1944 vital to the success i like i said that life just pounded something i need to remember that name let’s bring the clarity vital to the success of the 1944 allied invasion of europe was the capture of valuable bridges inland of the beaches this was to be done by parachute forces the night before d-day if these bridges were not taken the german army would be able to counter-attack the landing forces and push the allies into the sea just after midnight in the early morning hours of 6 june the 5th parachute brigade of this british 6 airborne division landed in normandy one glider company was tasked with the vital mission of seizing and holding the pegasus bridge which crossed the kane canal and secure the east flank of the british landing beaches if this bridge was not secured the germans would be able to launch a flank attack into the exposed left wing of the british invasion of forces after seizing the bridge in a daring assault the company established a defensive perimeter facing east towards an intersection at 0-132 tanks of the first panzer engineer company with infantry support crept toward the bridge as the lead element of a german counter-attack the only this is a good story the only anti-tank weapon available to the platoon covering this approach was a small piat rocket manned by sergeant thornton the paratroopers were fearful that a tank attack could not be stopped sergeant thornton laid lay hidden in a pile of equipment knowing the limited range of the piat and the vulnerability of his platoon’s position he decided to wait until the tanks were a mere 50 yards away before firing thornton fired the piat gun and scored a direct hit on the lead tank the round penetrated and caused a magnificent explosion shells inside the tank began to cook off creating a fantastic light show the german company commander was mortally wounded as he tried to flee the burning hulk the display and numerous explosions acted as a beacon for other paratroop forces lost in the dark they converged on pegasus bridge believing that british forces had come under severe attack the second german tank immediately reversed course the lieutenant in the tank reported that the british had occupied the bridge in force and were equipped with six pound anti-tank guns the german commanders decided to wait until daylight before launching another attack as morning approached the allied forces were able to land on the normandy beaches and protect from a strong german counterattack the german delay allowed the allies to build up combat power on the beaches and rapidly strike inland the invasion of france and the drive across europe led to the defeat of germany in less than a year’s time so some lessons here sergeant thornton knew that his piat gun was the only defense that paratroopers had against the german army he decided to hold his fire until the lead tank was danger close luring the germans into a trap this is legit that is that is badass right there you got to think what’s going through that guy’s mind i mean just being in close proximity to tanks in iraq 50 yards away and just that noise and knowing the power of that thing and you know and you know his guys are like dude what is what’s he waiting for yeah and the time you got that thought going through your head of like the catty shack like noonan like don’t miss yeah you got one shot one shot to quote uh the great echo charles all you could say is dang yeah that’s a tough one when sergeant thornton’s round hit the tank it set off a chain of events which helped ensure the success of the d-day invasion the british were able to reinforce and reconsolidate in the dark the germans decided not to risk a knight attack against strong unknown forces the burning tank itself prevented the germans from approaching the bridge when the british when the brit with the bridge in british hands the paratroop company held an entire panzer regiment at bay damn if that panzer regiment had been able to penetrate into normandy into the normandy beachhead the ally invasion might have failed the company’s pivotal position supported the airborne divisions mission and allowed the british landing forces to free access to the beaches one shot potentially shaved the left flank of the allied invasion one shot saved the left flank of the allied invasion and there’s a comment here a tactical success is only really decisive if it is gained at the strategically correct spot that’s which we haven’t done him yet but we got him in the books all right so while i was reading that i thought of something so i was talking about the fact earlier that when we got to modern warfare when we got machine guns we started to decentralize command because now leif’s squad is 100 yards away from me so that way we have some dispersions that we all we all don’t get killed at the same time so that way i just got to say hey like leif here’s our objective you got to go make it happen so now when you’re talking about going in right like you’re going into gliders and it’s in in bander brothers when you’re watching the gliders come in you’re going in the dark you’re hitting you’re just you’re just gonna be alone when you hit the ground that’s what’s gonna happen you’re gonna be with what you’re gonna be with whatever 22 other guys that’s what you’re going to be you who knows where your commander is going to be you’re freaking flying in the dark or you’re jumping out of an airplane how what’s your grouping how many people are you going to be close to so that not everyone i mean they have almost no communications so what we have to do is we have to make sure that everyone understands the commander’s intent everyone has to have some kind of objective so the more we got to this modern warfare the more decentralized command was and the more importance there was on commander’s intent then what happens then we start getting radios right so now all of a sudden hey leif you go there i’ll call you i’ll let you know what to do when we get there or if you get into trouble or if it’s not what you expected give me make calms so now all of a sudden i’m allowed to d or i’m not allowed i naturally ease towards taking the stress off of the commander’s intent because i figure just give me a call when you hit the ground if it’s not what we expected so when you think about if you’re gonna freaking launch gliders and paratroopers into france for d-day you gotta expect they’re gonna hit the ground they’re gonna have no idea where they are what to do they’re gonna have no communications with you they better they let me rephrase that they’re going to have no communications with you when they hit the ground they are probably not even going to have communications with more than five or six people when they initially hit the ground maybe 10 you know maybe if it’s a glider they’re all together but they’re going to be isolated so they have to understand the commander’s intent otherwise it just stops right there but as soon as we get radio communications now it’s like okay well you know when you hit the ground check in for the objectives only you know if you if you’re not sure where you are give us a call and we’ll so all of a sudden commander’s intent becomes less important and then you get to oh less important if you if you can make radio comes less important if you can make radio comps so then you get you fast forward you know uh to vietnam where maybe now every platoon has a radio right every platoon has a radio so now what we at least can can control that then you fast forward to the to the 90s like even when i first got in the teams we might not have a radio for each guy in the platoon there might be like four guys don’t get a radio hey make sure you stick with one of the you know because you’re doing like a shipboarding like hey if you don’t got a radio make sure you stick with somebody that does but now pretty much we don’t need to even know anything by the time we get to the teams in the 2000 we’ve all got radios we’ve all got radios so so now i can control more life tell me what’s going hey give me a status update so i can tell you what to do next and then you go to the 2010s now all of a sudden i got a blue force tracker i got a video of what we’re doing and you can see where now we’re becoming we’re going away from decentralized command and moving closer and closer to more micromanagement because the technology allows me as the leader to move those chess pieces as i see fit and it feels comfortable it feels more comfortable to do that of course we know it’s wrong because for me to be like leif give me a status upright date so i can give you you know your next move oh well my status update oh yeah jocko we’re getting flanked right now what do you want me to do oh i want you to oh leif just got shot why because he didn’t react quickly enough because he’s sitting there waiting to be told what to do so what we’re seeing now is a tendency to move more towards centralized command because we have the technology to facilitate centralized command i’m not saying it’s right i’m saying it’s bad it’s wrong but it’s that’s the reason that it’s happening we’re starting to see more and more micromanagement because we have the technology that facilitates it as you’re saying that i’m thinking about uh you know i’m thinking about as the training that you ran was you know which was the best freaky training in the world when you were the officer in charge of training detachment you know here for the west coast seal teams and you know your instructors were were out there to teach to teach people how hard it was going to be particularly in the urban environment you know in a combat situation how easily you can get in blue on blue situation how easily things to go chaotic how easily you can’t actually make comms on the radio um you know or the land warfare environment exactly the same thing and distances or ridge lines in the way or whatever it may be and because it seems that way in theory you know it seems that all in theory we just talked to everybody on the radio and give me a call just radio which deer will deconflict oh great and then when you realize like hey uh that’s not going to work if we can’t make comps and you talk about shipboarding that’s a great example like hey i’m down in the engine room and there’s a whole bunch of steel between me and you up on the bridge i got no comms with you whatsoever and if you’re thinking that like hey i just made a call on the radio and everyone heard me and i tried to do them you taught me that and it one of the one of the biggest lessons for me you know as as we’ve talked about here and you know podcasts you know years back is is is trying to put out you know a message over the radio hey everyone do this do that and you were like use verbal commands and that was one of those things like not everyone is hearing me on the radio they’re in the middle of doing stuff there’s people that are on the third story and they’re talking to a bunch of walls and they might they may not even be hearing your transmission so this illusion that i’m communicating you know is is uh is it’s a total illusion because it’s not the reality and and if people don’t have commander’s intent they can’t execute and there’s no substitute for that at all and we see that now right in the business world as the leader sent out an email or you know hey i told everybody what to do they should just read their email like hey are you guys in the field on their email 24 7 they’re they’re in the middle of doing stuff by the way they got 14 emails at six o’clock in the morning and you think that they’re gonna take that one from you and be like oh especially especially if you’re the kind of leader that sends out hey just checking in with everyone letting no one know what’s going on like no no don’t send me check-in emails you’re going to email if i’m emailing you there’s a reason for it you need to open it up and read it that means i’m not going to email you 12 times a day i’m not even gonna email you three times a day when you get an email from me it’s important if you set the precedence that i’m gonna send you a bunch of stuff that doesn’t matter guess what same thing with with coming up on the radio hey i actually need uh hey anyone’s got a another uh uh humvee we can push back in this area i i can’t really get two more guys i’m just talking on the radio talking on the radio talking on the radio eventually no one’s listening to you anymore we worked with a company recently where uh they’re running the plant and the plant is being managed from a couple hundred miles away we’re in like a command center uh and they lost power so they lose power and and all of a sudden like hey they got no calms at all everything has to be done on site you know and if you don’t understand commander’s attention if you don’t understand what those procedures are i mean you’ve got to have those contingency plans in place and i think that was what was so awesome about about seeing that at uh you know at trade when you’re running things is you’re instilling those lessons of like okay this is why i’ve got to make sure that my junior leaders my squad leaders you know can step up and make calls uh because if regardless of the technology that we have we’re gonna fail if they can’t yeah there would always be the the troop coming through and they’d say well i do well how are you coordinating that they’re like oh we’re just gonna get on the radio and when it’s go time and i’d be like what if you don’t get comms and they would kind of look at me puzzled and it get if you if you make your plan this is the this should be the fifth law of combat the fifth law of combat is if you make your plan and it’s based on making commun radio communications with some other element and your plan relies on that it will not work it will not work it is going to fail you’ve got to have you know secondary tertiary forms of communication that overcome the radio as you’re saying i’m thinking about the image of you standing on top of a humvee at uh entry control point three on the far side of the canal when we had all this danger of snipers around there and and uh we knew that this was there was sniper activity like no one actually peeked their head above the big hesco barriers jack was standing on top of the humvees with his tape antenna you know extended to like six or eight feet above his head to make comms with me you know as as i was we were forward and uh in an overwatch position and and even then it was it was it was a recognition of like hey we we’re it’s gonna be really hard to talk on the radio um you know and and you you didn’t you put yourself at risk to do that but if i didn’t have commander’s attention i mean i there’s no way i could i could rely on that to have you make the calls for me you know from a distant position uh i wanted to say one thing about this and uh you talked about you know the power of the flag and we talked about in that previous you know the germans that run up the flag and the french were demoralized nothing more demoralizing than uh a giant burning tank hole you know the hulk of that tank just just burning there that all the all the others can see and uh that uh that was obviously incredibly demoralizing in this particular situation um and i think when you oh oh i see what you’re saying you’re talking about this particular where he hit this tank with the with the p i yeah he hit the tank with a rocket all of a sudden you know the tank explosion it’s a big fireball and clearly that was a massively demoralizing thing for the german forces there which which turned it around for the brits but i think uh yeah running up flags is great um blowing up tanks and having a burning uh vehicle and for all to see like ooh i don’t want that happen to me yeah the reason it took me a second there is because the times that american tanks got blown up in ramadi and it would take you know 24 hours to get a 88 down there to drag them out and that was freaking demoralizing too you know and we we talked about the vehicle graveyard but just knowing that they’re gonna get some the enemy’s gonna get theirs and it’s freaking horrible it was incredibly demoralized right to drive down you know route michigan and see some burned out hulk of a vehicle on the side of the road but the good news was on our side it was also very demoralizing you know when the bad guys could observe their their buddies laying out in the street after some seal snipers put them in the dirt yeah and uh that was pretty demoralizing as well for them which we took some pride in chuck next sergeant stephen gregg us army italy 1944 in august of 1944 the allied offensive in italy was stalemated an amphibious landing at anzio was executed in an attempt to outflank the german defenses and capture rome the landing units became stalled on the beachhead allow allowing the germans to reinforce their defenses the day after the landing l company of the 143rd infantry was moving north towards rome the germans were waiting in ambush and the company was quickly pinned down by enemy fire realizing that the fire was too heavy for the medics to tend to the wounded sergeant greg a mortar men picked up a 30 caliber light machine gun and advanced on the enemy position his his measured accurate bursts suppressed the enemy long enough for the casualties to be evacuated unfortunately sergeant greg ran out of ammunition it was captured while sergeant greg’s captors took cover from incoming art american artillery sergeant greg grabbed the machine pistol and fought his way back to friendly lines i sometimes i’d pause because i’m thinking about these things in a little bit deeper level like picking up a 30 caliber light machine gun which it says light machine gun a 30 caliber machine light and just advancing on the enemy position that’s just awesome and then you picture this guy we start getting hit with artillery and all the captors hide and he’s like oh check you little babies watch this grabs a machine pistol fights his way back the front lines the next day the germans counter-attacked l company sorry the next day the germans counter attacked el company was ordered to hold the line on a hill captured the day before acting as a forward observer observer sergeant greg directed over 600 rounds onto the enemy until he lost communications with the mortar section knowing how important the mortar fire was to the defense sergeant greg took the initiative to find out what had happened to the phone line upon nearing the mortar section another soldier yelled that the germans had seized the mortar position and were dropping rounds on the americans sergeant gregg assaulted the germans taking two prisoners he quickly put the mortars back into the fight by gathering up a handful of american troops and teaching them how to fire mortars ojt l company held the line sergeant greg’s bravery initiative and situational awareness contributed to his unit’s successful defense the defeat of the german counter-attack led to the allied breakout from the beachhead and the eventual capture of rome that’s just a solo op right there that’s crazy this solo operation i’m gonna go check check out i’m gonna go find out what’s going on with this phone wire oh wait a second there’s some germans with our mortars cool i’m what do i do oh i attacked them okay give me a 30 30 cal machine gun let’s get some sergeant gregg displayed keen station lessons sergeant greg displayed keen situational awareness during combat at ancient while acting as a forward observer sergeant greg realized the importance of his unit’s role in the company defense and did everything in his power to keep the mortise firing so this says he realized the importance role like he realized what’s going on there was no one told him we better get those mortars up he realized it and made something happen when ambushed sergeant greg displayed the bravery and decisiveness to take action his individual attack on the germans lifted the pressure on his unit and allowed the wounded to be evacuated sergeant greg’s leadership abilities and strength of character allowed him to take a handful of americans not under his command and train them while under enemy fire sergeant greg’s improvised section maintained the supporting fires which were so critical to the company’s defense action or is this the common theme action look they talk about initiative that’s good they talk about understanding the commander’s intent but actually taking action is is what we need to do uh in the book called extreme ownership when we talked about prioritizing execute one of the things that that i had told stoner was you know wrote it on his thing relax look around and make a call and what’s interesting about that is when i wrote that there’s a part missing there’s a part missing to that so when you get into a situation where there’s a lot of mayhem going on what you need to do is relax you know take a breath look around actually observe what’s happening and then make a call right make a call now there’s a part that’s when you line that up with the ooda loop it almost lines up perfectly because uh observe orient decide and act we got relax which is like all right look around which is definitely observe and then make a call is decide the thing that i didn’t say to seth was was act and i would have said execute i would have used the word execute i didn’t put that on the windshield for him the reason that i didn’t put that on the windshield for him is because when you tell a sealed platoon to do something nine times out of ten it’s going to get executed when someone says online the word gets passed they get online when someone says peel right they get online they appeal right when someone says strong right strong left when somebody makes a call it gets executed and his platoon was executing stuff it was him that needed to make a call so that’s that’s the piece that i didn’t tell seth because i didn’t need to because it wasn’t him that was he was going to make the call his platoon was going to execute and and believe me they did you know when he would make a call or when someone would make a call they’d execute that’s pretty normal it’s very normal for a sealed platoon it’s very seldom that a seal platoon when they get when they get told to execute something that they don’t do it if you make a call jp durnell is executed yeah you picture you’ve got 16 jp denils or even if you got five jp danelles and some other guys shit’s gonna happen it’s gonna happen so when i wrote that for seth it was about him and the execute part i didn’t have to say anything because i knew if he made a call it was gonna happen that’s a that’s a big assumption for a lot of for it’s a big assumption for us as individuals and it’s a big assumption in a normal team right look i knew delta platoon at that time and like i said most steel platoons quite frankly they will execute as we just said but that’s not always common and it’s something that you should we should actually add if you’re going to say hey if when there’s things happening relax look around and make a call the next thing should be execute because there’s people that make calls there’s people that make calls and businesses there’s people that make calls in dynamic situations they make a call but if you haven’t trained and been been for lack of a better word programmed that when you hear a call you’re going to execute there’s often times when the execution doesn’t happen the reason i’m bringing this up is because i was thinking about this because every one of these things the common thing is that somebody’s taking action it’s not someone’s making a decision they’re making a decision too but they have to act and even when dave talks about the ooda loop you know he he says that the most important part of the ooda loop is action it’s action you got it you got to take action if you don’t take action look you can observe orient decide all day long if you don’t act it doesn’t matter and same thing with relax look around and make a call hey you can relax and orient yourself and observe what’s happening and make a call but if nobody executes that call you’re dead in the water so these things are all about actually taking action it’s a it’s a great observation because that’s that’s the breakdown for a lot of leaders and we see that all the time you know with a decision gets made and we’re working with a company and you know they’ve got a problem performer and they’ve done everything they can to train and mentor them and they okay we’re gonna have to actually make this the decision to to let them go and then you come back and talk to them six weeks later and the decision got made but they never executed and the performer’s still there and then it takes six months or nine months to get that done and it’s so much harder to do then uh and all the damage has been done and and i think that’s a great observation to me because it’s a you know you can make a decision but if you’re not actually executing it and it doesn’t it it gives you uh you’re setting yourself back you’re losing the initiative uh you’re wasting you know momentum you’re giving your competition uh a leg up and you know to your point earlier like nine times out of ten action is the best thing yeah take action take an interview step the direction you need to know you need to go uh and it just gives you all the advantage in the world yeah and occasionally you could get a platoon where they’re not you know they don’t have that they don’t have that attitude where they’re like okay the calls got made and we’re gonna go make this happen occasionally you would get a platoon like that and then then it would be hey would you hear that call you gotta you gotta go get on that you gotta make that happen you gotta you gotta execute like i said delta platoon didn’t need that they just needed seth to freaking relax look around and make a call once the call was getting made dude they had experienced guys in there and like you said you got some you got some jp dentals and some other freaking guys that are gonna make things happen in there it’s no factor action next one corporal david w lamb us army korea 1951 in october 1951 g company 23rd infantry regiment was battling for hill 520 of heartbreak ridge the company had been withered by repeated fights with the north korean forces corporal lam was acting platoon commander of the third platoon of a unit of about 20 soldiers so we got the the freaking e4 out there acting as a platoon commander following heavy bombardment and supporting fires corporal lamb’s platoon made a direct assault on hill 520 upon nearing the enemy lam’s platoon was halted by enemy fire and began taking casualties lamb called back for reinforcements lieutenant gayno gathered his first platoon and moved towards lamb’s position gano’s platoon began to take casualties and halted when the young lieutenant was killed private high stepped into the role of platoon commander and rallied his platoon while under fire corporal lamb directed the use of supporting fires and planned a new route for the enemy attack for the company attack after a bitter fight the two platoons breached the enemy defenses during the assault on the position corporal lamb was wounded private high was now the main effort of the attack he directed the remaining soldiers in taking out the bunkers in the enemy defenses using grenades and flamethrowers three hours after the attack had set off the ending position was secured corporal lamb’s leadership had pulled his platoon and the remainder of g company forward threw the withering fire into the enemy’s position the attack pushed the enemy off hill 520 an important an important step in removing resistance from heartbreak ridge you know what’s interesting i’ll a lot of times tell leaders you know you should have if you got seven or eight direct reports you should have two or three of those direct reports that are ready to step up and and take your job and and here you got a private you know this guy is this guy is a freaking private and he takes charge and makes things happen that’s next level right hey it should be imagine me saying hey look you got your direct reports and of all your direct reports your eight direct reports you should have two people that are ready to take your job and by the way in their direct reports there should be five people that are ready to take your job that’s impressive and if you if you made that your goal that the people not just your subordinates their subordinates there was people that were there there were two levels below you in the chain of command are going to step up and take your job if it need be imagine how effective and efficient those individuals would be freaking awesome like you talk about all the time like every leader should be trying to work themselves out of a job and i think it’s so hard to do that because our egos get involved you’re like why i want to be the one that makes calls and you know but you you insisted on that i know you’d learned that from uh from delta charlie in in your time in in the the seal teams and putting like ryan ryan jobs our our most junior ranking guy as a an e3 and we put him in charge of running an entire assault like planning and executing that assault and you know he did good it was it was it made him so much of a greater contributor because he understood what you know the the he understood the challenges of leadership he understood how he could best support you know the overall team and then what kind of information we needed to make decisions and i would have never done that without your encouragement and in fact i think i pushed back on a little bit you and you’re like hey why don’t you let who’s your most junior why don’t you let why don’t you let vehicles run this and i was like are you sure about that are you like he’s a he’s brand new and and you’re like yeah just let him run it let’s see what he does he’ll do fine yep and that’s the that’s that’s the crazy thing right there right it’s like he’ll do fine and he’ll be fine yeah he’s totally fine he’ll be he’ll do fine he’ll do fine it’s like even when we run ftx it’s like the ftx training program for civilians what i i don’t know how we had this talk or when it was but the overall the overall um the overall meaning of the talk was was like they’ll be fine like the these civilians that got 45 minutes of training of how to assault the building they’re actually going to do fine it won’t be that big of a deal look is a sealed platoon better trained yes but i’m saying the general idea of what they’re doing is going to be it’s going to be fine it’s going to be enough to work with and and so someone like bagels who who’s like in the platoon and going through the work up and understands things it’s like he he’ll watch this he’ll do it he’ll do it fine and you know he’ll make the same he’ll make you just did it leif babin the platoon commander from the naval academy you know you just did it and you made four mistakes and biggles is about to do it and he’s gonna make five it’s not like leif just did it and he made one mistake and biggle’s gonna do it he’s gonna make 80 no it’s like it’s like i made seven mistakes and he made three that’s yeah yeah yeah it’s like that crazy and and the the thing that you mentioned about how much more it opens up somebody’s brain when they get to see like all that when you’re in charge of all this exactly you called it this is what delta charlie did dust hey you’re in charge of this you’re running this and all of a sudden instead of me looking at this little tiny sliver of the plan and the sliver of the execution i’m looking at this whole big thing and so i see so much more see how things are interconnected that was such a powerful am i going to use this word yes i am life changing life changing for me to have the vision and to have my boss say you’re gonna run this and and get to run it and see all these things that i’d never seen before and be like and then the next mission by the way i’m back to just being a radio man but i can see all the connections i know the importance of the job i know that i my i know that this would help my boss i know that this would help the other the other squad leader i know that i should talk to this guy about it just makes you infinitely better that was a really powerful lesson that that that i learned from you and and saw the impact and i think that if leaders can just simply put their ego in check and realize just to your point that you had with those seal platoon commanders and task indemners think if you had think if you had 16 or 40 of those guys out there who can see that vision who are thinking about not just their tasks but every how can they can help the overall mission and the intent the purpose that you’re out here you know trying to accomplish it’s just absolutely life-changing and game changing and that that team is just they just dominate there’s no there’s no stopping that dude they just crush everything some lessons corporal lamb displayed tremendous leadership abilities his fellow soldiers benefited from his competence when he assumed command of the platoon and led a company-sized attack when the time came for him to command at a higher level he was able to shoulder the responsibility tactically proficient corporal lam had learned the necessary skills for commanding a platoon in combat check he was able to coordinate supporting fires with his company commander direct actions direct the actions of other platoons and inspire the men under his command by his personal leadership his knowledge and ability met with the success on the battlefield by the way i got a i got a text from uh tilt the other day and it was after he listened to a podcast with um with dave burke good deal dude yes good deal dave a good deal dave was telling uh you know talking about calling for bombs calling fire calling for fire in ramadi and i don’t know the number of times that that dave was on the ground to drop bombs but you know it was a lot yeah it was a lot and then tilt listened to it until it was like hey really like listening to your your podcast with burke uh let him know that i got to call some fire too only i was an e4 when i did it and and and it is you could not you could not compare the amount of times that dave burke dropped bombs in his entire career including training you could not compare that amount with the amount that tilt dropped on one operation one operation where he’s sitting at night for 12 hours with continual close air support tilt will make you feel like a baby yeah i don’t think you’re uh i don’t think you’re measuring up to uh i don’t think you’re measuring up to that in any way before but look that’s you know we talk about humility and i think that’s any time i think i’ve done something or we saw some combat you know and you start reading books i mean every single one of these of these uh illustrations here i mean it just just blows away anything that i saw or did it’s incredible i will say this though i talked to i i did i talked to uh you know a couple of vietnam seals they’re outstanding you know folks that had some awesome experience and uh had served as seal machine gunners in vietnam and they talked about being in some gun fights and i mean these guys i mean amazing you know incredible people who had awesome experiences our forefathers that created this legacy you know for us in the seal teams and we were talking about machine seal machine gunners you know and how man it was really cool to see our bellefield machinery kept us alive and how awesome they were and and we were talking about like how often you know i so i asked i asked one of them a good friend of mine how many times you have to reload your machine gun he’s like oh man maybe a couple times i was like well how many i mean you must have shot your whole load out a few times you know a bunch of times he was like no i don’t think i ever shot my whole load up and i was thinking like dude our seal machine gonna shot the their entire 600 round loadout and then maybe four or 500 more rounds that everybody else was carrying like all the time on so many of those operations yeah the i i had the same conversation with um with well i had this exact same conversation with one you know badass forefather vietnam seal who was a machine gunner in nam and he said the same thing you know he was like um he i think he said he’s like yeah we got in six firefights but that’s what i also learned is that much like current seal deployments you could have one seal deployment in vietnam where you go to a certain ao and the enemies act in a certain way and it’s freaking like daily craziness and they were doing what they oh yeah they do since they would do squad operations so they go every other night your squad my squad your squad my squad and they would do operations all the time so is also um you know based on the particular ao that you know that you were in i mean even when we were when we were in ramadi the guys that were over in another city you know whatever not not that far away some of those guys didn’t didn’t i don’t know if they got in firefights so or maybe they got you know two or three so it’s one of those things where i hate to use this word but you gotta get lucky with your ao you know and then of course you gotta make your own luck next up sergeant stephen bouchard u s marine corps vietnam 1967 in july of 1967 first battalion 9th marines took part in operation buffalo designed to defend the border between north and south vietnam known as the demilitarized zone during this operation the battalion was ambushed by an entire north vietnamese army regiment and took very heavy casualties the first and second battalions third marines were sent to rescue one nine and stabilize the area sergeant bouchard served as the right guide for 2nd platoon a company 1-3 the platoon’s mission was to clear the area where 1-9 had left their dead as a company moved out of its positions second platoon came under heavy shell fire the platoon commander was wounded and had to be medevaced the platoon sergeant took command the nva began firing from bunkers in the far tree line the platoon sergeant froze with fear leaving the platoon without leadership sergeant bouchard unhesitatingly took command of the platoon and played an important role in the company’s subsequent actions sergeant bruchard’s strong leadership pulled the platoon through the horrible task of retrieving the corpses of one nine while under enemy fire while manning a defensive position a breach in the battalion line was created between bouchard’s platoon and the adjacent b company bouchard’s platoon counter-attacked into the breach and sealed off the nva who had infiltrated the perimeter his unit then made contact with approaching forces wearing marine gear sergeant bouchard ordered his marines to hold their fire until the figures had come into within hand grenade range at that time bouchard decided to open fire on the approaching soldiers who were nva wearing stolen gear from the dead of the one-nine bouchard’s tactical actions broke the enemy attack and the marines went on the offensive sergeant bouchard remained in command of second platoon until the unit was ordered to pull out a13 was the last unit to leave the battlefield before b-52 strikes leveled the area sergeant bouchard was both willing and able to take responsibility of leading the platoon his tactical skills allowed the platoon to play a major role in the company’s combat operation sergeant bouchard was able to take charge by being decisive we recorded a whole thing yesterday on for ef online on being decisive the squad leaders did not respond to the platoon sergeant who was too fearful to lead sergeant bouchard took decisive action and was not afraid to make tough decisions and carry out difficult tasks and once again what did he do he took action taking action his decision to open fire on the individuals in marine uniforms required decisiveness and acceptance of responsibility sergeant bouchard led his platoon by example many marines were devastated by the sight of the marine dead left behind by one nine sergeant bouchard’s capable and firm leadership held second platoon together and that right there i mean is just devastating you know you know we talked about the how how much it hurt to see an american tank burning in in the streets in ramadi i mean can you imagine your platoon is now out there just recovering body after body after body of your fellow marines i mean it’s a it’s a nightmare and and obviously they didn’t go into it too much and i i’ll have to do some research and if i can find any more information about this but you know they clearly mention it here many marines were devastated by the sight of the marine dead left behind by one nine realizing that his unit had to be at the right place at the right time in order to make a difference sergeant bouchard led a counter-attack to plug the gap in the lines between a and b companies this platoon level tactical action secured the company flank and prevented the battalion from being split and overrun and there’s a quote here from the german army that says it’s better to have a good sergeant in command than a bad officer we’ll take that one that’s that’s a great quote right there corporal lester a tully u s marine corps vietnam 1968 the 1968 ted offensive took american forces in vietnam by surprise way city the ancient imperial capital of vietnam was quickly overrun by the north vietnamese army the nva given the mission of relieving the first arvin division command post g company 2nd battalion 5th marines advanced on foot through the city the first arvin division cp was located at the northern corner of the citadel a historic fortress g company’s route of advance would take them right through the citadel the company advanced along highway one with second platoon in the lead until it became necessary to cross a bridge over the perfume river just as the lead squad crested the center of the span an nva machine gun and placed in a fortified bunker opened fire the company was pinned on the bridge and the lead squad took multiple casualties an m60 was set up to counter the nva position but the team leader was killed moments later as sparks flew from enemy rounds hitting the bridge structure corporal tully decided to take matters into his own hands corporal tully was second squad leader of second platoon on the bridge his squad was located directly behind the lead squad assessing the situation corporal tully decided upon a course of action that would allow his company to advance realizing that his squad was protected from fire and was the nearest to the enemy corporal tully charged up a walkway and threw a grenade into the enemy position killing five nva and silencing the position the company followed corporal tully’s squad crossed the bridge and advanced upon the citadel as the company neared the citadel it meant heavy resistance from northern vietnamese army regulars while forced to withdraw gulf 2 fied gulf 2-5 clarified the situation around the citadel american commanders had gained a much needed clearer picture of how strong the enemy was in way city now the american commanders could concentrate on what to do rather than wondering what was going on that’s a you know we used to set up the the old barricaded shooter down a hallway this is just an awful one a barricaded shooter down the bridge and what are you gonna do you got downed men on that bridge because you think oh well i’ll just jump off the ridge and we’ll be okay what about your wounded friends up there so you can’t just abandon it it’s a nightmare what’s up with the what’s up with a grenade killing five nva that’s a that must have been a that’s a tight shot they must have been closely grouped i mean like way tightly grouped that’s a well well thrown girl that’s a well-thrown grenade i always loved that that that you know the uh i guess yeah the the american grenades being like baseballs baseball side and the germans they couldn’t they couldn’t hang because they play soccer and so they you know what a potato masher grenade is echo charles no you’re you ever seen a a grenade with like a long stick on one end of it yeah like on red don yeah so that’s called a potato masher because it looks like something potatoes but the reason that it was created was you can use it like with leverage to throw further yeah yeah because you can’t kick a grenade like it’s a soccer ball so they couldn’t throw like america you take an american kid man come on he’s gonna take that little baseball sized grenade and huck that thing strike he’s gonna put it into a machine gun pick go five people accuracy freaking awesome yeah if you remember from from easy company that with with the the two 506 the banner banner brothers if you’ve seen the the uh the television show read the book but uh remember buck compton was the all-american uh catcher for the ucla’s baseball team and he was like he was apparently direct line drive hitting german soldiers with with hangman that’s so freaking epic that’s so epic i was uh when i was going through stt like the what became sqt so you know the you get done with basic skill training and you show up at a team and then they put you through training and that we we went through a grenade course which was just run by team guys but we were throwing pineapple grenades straight up pineapple grenades the crates were marked 1947 what’s the pineapple grenade that your dish looking grenade it sort of looks like a pineapple it’s got the little like spikes spikes on it yeah it’s like like a like a quad pattern oh yeah it’s just like a stereotypical grenade oh yeah like okay what you look like if someone’s gonna get a tattoo of a grenade right right that’s what they get okay so the and then what then the kind of modern grenades that’s just the rounds just yeah it just looks round but that that those pineapple grenades so we go up there and this is just dumb team guy stuff so we start throwing these grenades and like a bunch of them are not working because they’re whatever at that time like 50 years old or something crazy like that so we’re hucking these grenades and uh the chief that was running the training who it was a freaking like badass team guy matter of fact tony mentioned him because he he uh died but his name is tim ferrell and so we’re throwing these grenades and when they would so if if you threw a grenade and it didn’t go off the protocol was shut down the range call eod eod can come out there whatever in five hours and you’re gonna sit there for five hours waiting for them to show up so tim ferrell didn’t want us to miss training so he’s going out on the range he’d like be like he’d give it like whatever a few minutes and then he’d take another grenade another freaking old rusty pineapple grade he would go up pull the pin set it down next to the one that was the dud after he went out there looking for it that’s balls set it down and then run back and jump into the pit and dude i’m a new guy i’m like damn dude this dude’s a badass like this guy’s crazy but that’s you know that’s how if you’re out there running hand grenade ranges do not do not do that do not do that do not do that not advisable like i said dumb team guy stuff freaking don’t real dumb those those pineapple grenades so that you know the m67 which is the mod around grenades we use it that it the frag pattern is is so much the frag is tiny it breaks up into those little little small pieces where the pineapple guys got those big old chunks and that’s what the that’s what the the uh insurgents had in ramadi yeah yeah oh yeah they have those uh they have those russian ones that are more cylindrical yeah they’re cylindrical and they still have the grid pattern on them yeah we recovered a bunch of those out of that one moss that we cleared with iraqi soldiers imagine that sweet you guys stash all their weapons there so you don’t use the pineapple grenades at all no more long-term no dang that’s kind of the iconic look yeah that’s what i’m saying if you’re gonna get a tattoo of a grenade you’re gonna get that one most like i’ve never seen anyone with an m67 grenade tattoo have you i haven’t yeah because it it’s kind of round right yeah it doesn’t quite have the it’s kind of boring yeah i remember some of those pineapple the russian pineapple graves were those things were heavy they had a lot more a lot more weight a little more oomph to them for sure it seemed like most well like you said the frag was heavier you know like just the just the metal was heavy i don’t know what the explosive weight was off the top of my head they’re definitely bigger they make a big boom i can tell you that so there’s different sizes of grenades or no yes there are like so well you you mentioned that the grenade killed however many guys in one shot that was more a statement of like that must have been a hell of a shot and the guys must have been close together because a grenade is a very small explosive i mean it’s a yeah it’s a small five five meter kill right yeah yeah yeah so it’s yeah if they’re all cruising together boom here’s a note for echo charles though uh with the movie master yes sir the so the the the five meter kill radius for m67 our hand grenade frag grenade is the same it’s the same kill radius for a golden egg which is a 40 millimeter grenade that you shoot out of your your m203 grenade launcher or the old school m79s that we we carried and uh unlike what you might see in the movie commando when when you when you shoot a 40 mm grenade the building doesn’t blow up and we had several times where it just it fragged people and they run off and so yeah that’s a common disappointing no there’s a common misconception that actually is true and commando is actually factually the proof that it doesn’t do that well all i gotta say is i tried that many times and as an officer you know my my job is to stand back and and high point my weapon and be detached but that also means that if i’m in the back i can shoot some 40 millimeter grenades and we we’ve shot quite a few of those things which was awesome i remember you uh often coming back with uh empty bandoliers [Music] so wait on predator no no no they started totally did start it um remember the scene on predator jesse ventura blaine aka blaine says i don’t i don’t have time to bleed right remember that part yeah it’s like hey you believe and then the guy pancho said okay do you have time to duck exactly he came out shot is that the 40 millimeter that’s a forty nine yeah he had an m203 so he’s launching that into the unlike like look it would definitely keep guys heads down and if and we did have we had a couple guys that just scored some direct hits with a 40 millimeter grenade which is if you take one of those in the chest it’s game over for you uh that was pretty epic but uh but there there is uh what what doesn’t happen is like you saw on predator where you launch a 40 milligram a 40 40 mic mic into a bunker and like a giant explosion happens and six guys go flying 10 feet in the air in all directions that doesn’t happen that was pretty disappointing did you see my instagram post where i said hey people are parking in front of my driveway and then i shoot the cars yes is that a 40 millimeter i mean i guess i thought you had a rocket wasn’t that a rocket right now it was like one you know the big i think like six of them fit in there oh you know what you did have you had the street sweeper there’s a street sweeper 40 millimeter name which the marines had yeah the eight marines had some and they’re heavy but it’s pretty awesome it’s just it’s a cylinder and so yeah you can just launch a whole bunch of yeah it’s basically like a gigantic revolver with 40 millimeter that wasn’t real it was real but i don’t look at the tag what do you call the instructions or whatever the name i don’t know i i did shoot some vehicles with 40 mic it does create quite an explosion and if you can ignite the gas you know then then it will catch on fire there wasn’t a gigantic explosion that happened though that was a little disappointing yeah you got to go in good deal dave for the bombs yeah there’s just not that much explosive inside i mean you don’t like how big a m80 is yeah i mean think of how big an m80 is well then think of how big a grade is i mean i can just kind of multiply that and you’re going to get something similar so do you remember that they they gave us the thermal thermobaric 40 mic mics i do remember that which which create a much larger explosion and supposed to kill people with the overpressure and they they gave us a bunch of like several cases of them and that was supposed to last the entire deployment and we shot every single one of them uh on one operation within about a one hour period which was awesome that was awesome but what was also additionally awesome was i got an email follow-up and the they said uh they said something like hey we’re wondering if you’ve had a chance to utilize because they were they were tested they were testing them uh we were wondering if they’ve had a chance to if you’ve had a chance to use any of these thermobaric grenade 40 millimeter grenades and have you had a chance to fire any of them yet and i was like hey i was like hey leif hey i was like have you you shot some of those how are you guys i shot all of them i go how were they like they were awesome and i just wrote back uh work good send more i think i think i asked for more of them the only thing that was different is that they they’re much heavier because they’re a lot larger and the explosion is much much more powerful so a little closer to what you might expect gotcha but you you got to account for that in the trajectory because uh you didn’t open it yet where you’re aiming it is falling like you know 50 meters short yeah that’s kind of hard to do i mean can’t mark lee just roll out and dope in your 40 minute mic that’s crazy um all right the lessons from that one corporal tully knew the mission of the company was to relieve the first arvin division headquarters when the company was halted by fire he took decisive action in support of the commander’s intent to free up the movement of the company so the mission can be continued corporal coley acted corporal tully acted on his own initiative being the second in the company formation he was in the best position to evaluate the situation and take advantage of the opportunity developed by the point squad so what we have here again we’ve got somebody that’s in a position they’re not the leader this isn’t the gunnery sergeant this isn’t the platoon commander this isn’t the company commander this is the squad leader who takes action and makes a difference and look we we saw this kind of thing all the time and we were lucky enough to work alongside the army work alongside the marine corps and see you know not just from our own platoons not just from charlie and delta platoon see our young e5s and step up and make things happen we got to see things like this we get to see things like this all the time all the time you gotta you gotta think about how young these guys inexperienced these squad leaders are as well too and i was you know as we’re reading hearing those stories i’m thinking about a a young squad leader that we worked with from 3 8 marines lima company named joe thomsey corporal joe thompson and we did probably a dozen operations with corporal thomsey and his his squad uh and we learned a lot from those guys i mean they had been in ramadi for uh several months prior to us and it fought through some of the most difficult and dangerous neighborhoods and uh he was he was 21 years old uh so here’s here he is in charge of a squad of marines leading those marines a beloved squad leader stepping up and making calls supporting the chain of command um you know and just just executing and getting things done and uh i had so much respect and you know to be able to work with with a marine like that and and uh tragically uh corporal thompson was killed on august 2nd 2006 the same day that we lost markley same day ryan joe was shot and blinded and uh we we lined up next to those marines from 38 lima company and we put both uh joe thomsey and mark lee on that angel flight at the same time and uh i remember the silence of of of all the marines next to us as as our seals from charlotte between carrying those our brothers and and bodybacked and put them on that angel flight as they took off and just the the glow of that uh of that helicopter going going uh going around uh as they took off to fly those guys home and uh what a loss i mean just seeing how crushed those marines were losing their their brother and this beloved squad leader and and i was just thinking about us as we’re hearing those stories it’s hard to to imagine that these guys how young they were you know a guy like corporal thompson 21 years old and with all that uh you know with just limited life experience and yet in this massive position of responsibility uh that are playing such key roles in in whether or not their team succeeds or fails and uh just my hats off to all the squad leaders out there and uh what an honor to work with a guy like that um and and to reflect on on the impact that he had on all the marines that he he led yeah that was um i’m thinking that’s probably a pretty good place to uh stop for today we got some more we got some more things to cover and it’s important to remember that these guys you know the guys that we’re talking about in this book when you’re talking about corporal thomsey when you’re talking about mark you know we talk about how they make a difference on the battlefield and make a strategic impact but their actions and the way they lived and the example that they sent definitely have made a difference in the way that i think in the way that you think and the impact that they had not just on the battlefield but to see an example to be examples of what a leader is and more important what a person can be and like i said we’ll we’ll pick this up on the on the next one but from from these stories that we heard already you know i kept referring back to taking action and and these these squad leaders they take action and they and they make a difference and and that applies to us as individuals our actions make a difference our actions that we take as people make a difference not just on the battlefield not just in business [Music] but in life so step up take action and make a difference all right echo charles it’s been a while but i need some help over here yes sir why don’t you talk for a little bit all right well i didn’t talk about taking action which i agree with obviously um uh well we’re gonna start small how about that as far as taking action goes so the best action that we can take to improve is to improve our physical health starts there this is this is essentially the foundation for pretty much all other action when you think about it okay i was feeling like obviously i was getting a little bit emotional there i’m done now you can stop talking okay we’re trying to cool down i think i’m cool we’re good good what i was gonna say is we gotta start small okay we’re not all we’re not all dressing up like rebels you know with our friends going in and shooting the rebel league we’re not all doing that okay jack that was epic though most of us are just kind of you know just going day to day with her you know with our lives and tactically and strategically trying to do the right thing right starting small best way to take action or the best thing to do is to maintain or improve our physical health let’s just say it’s a great place it’s a definitely a great place to start yes sir we like it yes sir can’t argue no can’t so improving physical health takes what i used to call beat downs you got to beat down your body a little bit varying levels of beatdowns check we all worked out today affirmative some of us planned to work oh did you not want to go brad not yet i’m working out later that’s what i’m saying saying okay he was he said echo was called me out earlier for not throwing around the hundo uh the the hundo kettlebells you’re in you’ve been in town for two days would you be more consistent if you work with your workouts if you lived in san diego with me or like near me 100 [Music] sometimes i’m like i wonder if leif really wants to show up at my house at five o’clock in the morning then you get there well how do you feel when you get there how do you feel once you’re working out how do you feel once you’re done it’s the best the best it’s the best and uh luckily i got i got an early crossfit class that i usually hit at 5 30 in the morning get up at 4 30 stretch out and that’s that’s in dripping dripping springs crossfit second wave yeah awesome uh plug coming at you crossfit second wave awesome gym how many classes do you have four or five a day yeah outstanding coaches great uh great instruction so get after it here’s a question i have a question for you okay straight up you know like okay okay okay so you know what you just said like life would you do you think you’d paraphrasing would you make workouts if you live in san diego right so the whole accountability in early workouts okay when he’s going to get his bro yeah so you have this thing where and this kind of me just assuming where you know when you have a workout partner you’re way less likely to skip workouts right so for you you might think of yourself if you’re like you know that doesn’t apply to me because alright script and workouts hell no kind of thing right but do you believe that that’s a sound theory i do believe it’s a sound theory yeah it is right yeah it is yeah so i’m not gonna yeah so when jocko’s like all right i’ll see you at five that’s uh you’re gonna be there yeah you’re gonna get something yeah makes sense but yeah so through workouts sometimes you know you gotta beat down your body so you can recover you know and through that recover beat down recovery process we may need a little support so we’ll start with the joints find it another foundational uh concept your joints on your body track so we got some supplements we got a lot of supplements for pretty much everything so joints is joint warfare super krill oil these things maintain your joints so you don’t have to worry about that kind of stuff so you just worry about the workout making it to the workout in life’s case and you know and pushing hard again in life’s case i like it so here’s what we’re gonna do for life yeah he’s gonna he’s gonna get some good sleep maybe take some of that hypnosis then he’s gonna wake up maybe have a little discipline hitter to get to the workout he’s gonna have joint warfare because his joints are going to be functioning well with krill oil yes sir that gets him gets done guess what he’s coming at it some milk gonna rebuild with the protein easy money and then he’s got a roll in here for the podcast cracks open a discipline go by the way pretty soon pretty soon one life babin is going to have his own signature we’re working on that hey um uh if you want any of this stuff this is we just started this we’re trying to do a better job of helping you help yourself so if any of this stuff that you want you subscribe to it at origenmain com if you subscribe to it we will ship it to you for free that’s what i said i said what i said that that subscription is awesome too because there’s i’ve over the last couple years like the joint warfare and krill oil that that is the super kill if i don’t take that stuff like i feel it it’s a problem i absolutely feel it and it there’s no question makes a difference so that subscription of it just shows up you’re never out it’s it’s awesome i love that and also too like okay so and consider this would you this is something you don’t really think about the joint weapon the krill oil you don’t go like through the day thinking oh can’t wait to take my joint warfare like it’s not on your mind until it’s time to take it so like mo sometimes you can be like hey i can’t kind of can’t wait for them later you know kind of i’m feeling that right now it’s just different it’s insane so when you get into the red zone as far as supply of the joint warfare it’s like oh you can kind of understand how you’d get there you know but when you have the subscription man that problem is kind of avoided it’s true though you know for that kind of stuff so you can get it at wawa by the way you can get the drinks at wawa whole east coast by the way we’re in we’re in whole east coast everyone that helped us but everyone in florida that helped us by going in and clearing shelves it is much appreciated and you did it you did it you got wawa full chain whole east coast no matter where you go you see a wawa you can go in there and get yourself some some discipline go also vitamin shop you can get it there so that’s cool yes also origin maine com origin maine com you can get american made because we’re training jiu-jitsu yes you get american-made ghees rash guards you can get that’s cool when you’re training we can’t wear ghees in the streets you can not considered not considered what appropriate we want to wear jeans yeah okay cool we got american-made jeans american-made jeans american-made boots t-shirts hoodies just all kinds of american-made gear that’s true speaking of gear jocko has a store with gear dracostore com this is where you can get your discipline equals freedom gear your good gear your your by to get some t-shirts let it get some gear yes oh yeah so yeah a good way to represent apparel wise your hardcore recondo oh gear yeah hardcore recondo all day yes all available like i said jacquelinestore com also we we have a little uh what’s called what we call the sh shirt locker go ahead you don’t like how it’s no well i don’t know why you made it this weird thing but we have the shirt locker yeah see what i’m saying though like yeah you didn’t like how i said it the sh you call it locker totally called it weird and use is well because it’s like the hurt locker is what you’re saying anyway okay either way until you get a new shirt every month did you put like little tags in those that says def on it you like that yeah yeah later on the details with that one there’s some details in there yes there’s some layers in there as well anyway some so these are cool design ideas did you steal that idea from lululemon i thought it was lulu melon i don’t know i don’t know no no i didn’t though no the answer is no okay well it looked way cooler well there you go so you’re good either way yeah look into that a new shirt every month cool layers designs represent boom uh subscribe to this podcast subscribe to the jocko unraveling podcast darryl cooper’s in town by the way we’re going to be recording grounded podcast talking to dean lish trying to get moving on that warrior kid podcast i know i told you when i finished my last book and got it turned in we’d we’d get cracking on that so that was two days ago another deadline met uh also we have the underground the jocko underground jockowunderground com if you want to get a little bit more amplifying information from the underground you wanna you wanna see something a little bit what’s going on behind the scenes you can go to the underground we have uh a bunch of stuff going on there we’re doing this podcast on there called the jocko underground it costs money it costs money because we don’t want to have we don’t want to have sponsors look i know it’s hard enough to listen to us talk about this stuff right now imagine if we were talking about something that we actually didn’t like it would suck really bad yes sir so we only talk about things that we actually use that we actually own that’s what we’re doing we don’t want to have somebody else hold us hostage with their many eight dollars and eighteen cents a month or if you wanna if you want if you can’t afford that it’s okay email assistance jockowunderground com and you’ll get taken care of so if you’re gonna if you’re if you’re feeling a little bit angry what are they doing well first of all this podcast’s the same as long as it can be this way it will be but if you can’t afford it it’s okay we want to help have you explained the 818 no because i’ve had quite a few people ask me that we haven’t yet we’re not ready to put the word out yet no one person that i can remember guess the exact one but that’s sort of it layers layers we got youtube subscribe to see echo’s legit videos where he has one of considered one of the be the best assistant directors in the world who really kind of guides the the whole tone of the videos that’s me yes sir so you’re welcome thank you but you know what i’m humble that way i just let him i let him i let him kind of take the credit for the videos uh psychological warfare a bunch of a bunch of tracks on there flipsidecampus com dakota meyer making stuff we got books we got a bunch of books we got final spin a story a novel a poem i’m not sure you’re gonna have to judge for yourself it’s available for your order right now leadership strategy and tactics field manual the cold evaluation of protocols discipline equals freedom field manual way of the warrior kid four field manual way the warrior kid one two and three mike in the dragons about faced by colonel david hackworth and of course of all those books that i’ve written the ones that leif actually thinks are the best are extreme ownership and the dichotomy of leadership so you can get those two which we wrote together echelon front that is our leadership consultancy where we solve problems through leadership go to echelonfront com for details on that we have ef online which is that’s why life’s out here we just recorded four new sections for ef online where we go on this particular course we are going deep into the into the principles that are in extreme ownership because you read about them and you start applying them and you need some help and you need some adjustment these are like advanced courses on those fundamental principles and then we’re very soon we’re going to have we’re going to have those available for all 12 chapters of extreme ownership we got up we got an hour-long plus of content in each of those courses that match each chapter it’s gonna be gonna be awesome and there’s quizzes and then we do we’re doing live stuff all the time on there so if you’ve got a question you can come and ask us that’s efonline com by the way if you really want to see jocko get animated uh if online live i have fun man i have fun he brings it i have fun that’s what i do um we have the muster in 2021 those have kind of changed but go to extremeownership com if you want to come to a live event we’ve got also the ftx which is field training that we talked about a bunch today how these guys are learning about leadership you want to go through that come to our ftx that’s what it is and also we have ef battlefield where we will take you on a guided tour to learn the leadership lessons from the battle of gettysburg so check those out ef overwatch where we are placing we are placing executives into your company that have experience from the military that know the principles that we talk about all the time go to efoverwatch com and if you want to help service members active and retired their families gold star families well a good way to do it is check out mark lee’s mom mama lee she’s got a charity organization and if you want to donate or you want to get involved go to america’s mightywarriors org and if you want to if you just feel the need to listen to more of my protracted presumptions or you need to hear more of echo’s unavailing articulations or lace tiresome tails you can find us on the interwebs on twitter on instagram which echo only refers to as the gram and on facebook life is at least babin on the gram leaf is at real leif babin because you don’t want to get the other lay back unreal echo that’d be kind of cool if you were kind of unreal echo is adequate charles and i am at jocko willing and thanks to all the folks out there in uniform especially the squad leaders the squad leaders of the world you make a difference in keeping the world safe and to our police and law enforcement firefighters paramedics emts dispatchers correctional officers border patrol secret service and all first responders thank you for making a difference by keeping us safe in our worst times and to everyone else out there [Applause] remember that no matter where you are no matter what is happening no matter how outnumbered out gunned out matched you might be at any particular moment you make a difference [Music] but you only make a difference if you make a difference your actions matter your effort matters your tenacity matters so don’t let off the gas don’t wait for someone else to handle it for you don’t accept your fate if you don’t like it take action you make the difference and you make the difference by taking action and of course by getting after it and until next time this is leif and echo and jocko out
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