Video URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR570m_YzNg
It's a mental game and when you see your counterpart smashing up headphones and landing at cameras, you know that you've got to Christian her, the team boss of the world championship winning team, Red Bull Racing. You came into Red Bull when it wasn't doing great. When I came into the sport, I was the youngest team principal in Formula 1. I still am to this day, ironically. And I don't have any formal qualifications bar a couple of A levels. I wanted to make sure that we were the team on the upward graft and think, okay, how can we turn into fertilizer? You can lose championships as we've seen. Yeah. In seconds. It felt like it was slipping away and then suddenly it was insane. If somebody came up with a script and said that's the way this season's going to pan out, nobody would have believed it. All that press scrutiny. Formula 1 is a very glamorous world from the outside looking in. It can be a lonely place at at times. Have you ever had moments of anxiety? Yeah. It sort of crept up on me without, you know, recognizing it. Same. And it's just your body telling you that, you know, there's a lot going on here. And uh for me, you know, I've had enough. When you look at your competition, which has been Mercedes? Yes. Why do you think your team will win? I think that Before this episode begins, I just want to say a huge thank you to all of our new subscribers. 74% of you that watch this channel didn't subscribe before and we're now down to about 71%. So that helps us in a number of ways that are quite hard to explain, but simply the bigger the channel gets, the bigger the guests get. So, if you haven't yet subscribed to the Diary of a CEO, if I could have any favors from you, if you've ever watched this show and enjoyed it, it's just to please hit the subscribe button. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's
listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. [Music] Christian, there's a slight pun, I guess, to this opening question, but um as I look back into your early years and as you look back in hindsight and sort of self assess, what drives you? What drives me? I'm naturally a competitive person and uh you know, I've always, you know, enjoyed competition. I've always enjoyed working, you know, within a team of people and uh and winning. you know, winning. There's just no no feeling like it in uh uh you know, whether it's achieving a checkered flag first or sealing a deal to get on a car. Um you know, that's always what's what's driven me has always been about the competition. In our earliest years, I I think, you know, this psychology shows that we're we're formed most definitively by the things that happen, the context we're grown up in, older brothers, you know, the parenting. when you look back and connect those dots, is there anything else there that um is important context to who you are today? Well, I'm the middle child of of three. So, my older brother was was the the sensible one of of the three of of the three boys. Um and then my younger brother was more outrageous, I would say. And and the middle child is always that slightly awkward one. Um you know, particularly within within three. So, um, you know, I wasn't I didn't excel at school. I wasn't that interested in school. School for me was almost like a a social thing, but I enjoyed sport and I enjoyed team sport at at at school. So, where my older brother was quite academic, he was he was crap at sport. Um, whereas, you know, I played in the football team or the cricket team or or whatever was whatever was going. And um you know I I just enjoyed that. And uh I think that you know being a being a middle child um you're always slightly different. The the the younger ones always ends up being the spoiled one. The older one's a sensible one and the the middle one tends to be in his own lane for certainly from the the middle children that I've met. What did you think you were going to be when you grew up? I wanted to be evil conval. You know I
wanted to be a stunt man. Um and then there was a program um the full guy with Lee Majors in it who drove around in a big truck and and so on and I you was a stunt man and I thought that was super cool. So I was always fascinated by cars and speed and and so on. So that attracted me to um you know just just the world of of of engines. And from a very early age uh from about 12 you I was pestering and pestering my mom because I knew my father wouldn't uh wouldn't buy me one to get to buy a motorized go-kart. And I saved up what I had. And then for my 12th birthday um we found this thing in the back of a uh a newspaper, this secondhand uh sort of 20-year-old go-kart. and it was too low to drive around a farm or on on the grass. So, we found a track and suddenly I discovered this you could race these things and and suddenly that wetted my appetite at a very young age. Um, and you know, Nigel Manel at the time was a complete hero of mine. I was starting to get into into Formula 1. So from a very early age, you know, I became almost obsessive about wanting to be a a racing driver to the point that I didn't want to grow any taller. I got, you know, to 5'7 and thought, "Yeah, you I don't want to grow any any any taller." I was almost willing myself to um to to be short. So So uh because all races drivers tended to be sort of pintsized during that that that time. So for me, that was my dream. I could just visualize myself being a being a racing driver and that's you know everything else became secondary at that point. What influence did your your mother and father have separately on you? They had they had a huge influence on me both in in in in different ways. My father worked in the automotive industry. So he shared a passion for for cars and engines and and um motor racing. you know, he was uh he done some marshalling in his youth and always liked being around around cars. He always had, you know, nice cars and and uh working in that industry. Um yeah, he was hugely hugely knowledgeable. My mother, you know, my mother would would always encourage us to follow our dreams and she'd always push us as as as children, never to accept, you know, just being uh, you know, run-of-the-mill, always push yourself, always extend yourself. Um,
and so she had an awful lot of drive, you know, in her. And so it was a combination, you know, of the of the two. So once I discovered this world of of motor racing at the around the age of age of 12, you know, my father and I were able to then, you know, we spent quite a lot of time together, you know, traveling the country and then racing internationally and then into car racing and so on. And it was a it was a great thing to be able to, you know, to share with him. And he, you know, he made a lot of sacrifices to help me in in my career. Um, my brothers both had the chance to to have a go at racing. neither of them were were, you know, were interested. Um, and so we spent a lot of time going up and down the country to different cart races. My mom would pack a, you know, pack all the sandwiches up and, you know, it became a family thing. Um, going to these different racing events. I'm really intrigued by that winning streak in people and that competitiveness because not everybody, and you would have seen this in the drivers and the people you've worked with, not everybody has that. They don't have that like competitive tenacity where they ju they just have to win. Yeah. Where does where does that come from in you? Have you figured that out? Is it something which has built over time? Was there always a bit of a glimmer of that winning at all costs or I think it's something that's in in your DNA. And look, I've got I'm one of three uh boys in in our family and I'm very different to my to my brothers and um you know, I've got the same parents. Uh, but we're all very different and I think you either have it, you know, or you or you don't. And uh, you know, I I always had this inner drive and and desire. Um, there was purely focused around, you know, motor racing. I didn't vis en envisage myself being a tennis player or, you know, anything else. I just wanted to to to race. I just wanted to compete. And I would watch hours and hours of video footage on VHS tapes of old races and Grand Pris and, you know, study the minutest of details of, you know, what racing boots Nigel Manel was wearing or or you you know, you totally engross yourself in all aspects of it. And uh and I think visualization is a
big thing as well. So I think if you if you visualize something and you really want it, I've found in certainly in my life that you know that's that's absolutely achievable because you set you're setting yourself a target. You're setting yourself a goal and and that's what you got to shoot for. There's a lot of talk around around visualization. And I think there was a book that came out called the secret which um somewhat painted visualization as a uh supernatural force in the world that kind of conspires to give you what you want. When you talk about visualization, do you see it as a supernatural force or do you see it as much more of a practical satellite navigation of I think I think you could see it as both in many respects. uh uh you know, I'm probably more practical in my in my thinking, so I'm not engaged with the supernatural. Uh but but yeah, I'm a great believer that if you visualize something, if you see yourself being on that podium and you believe in it and you want it and you really strive for it, you can you can achieve it. And I didn't achieve it as a driver, but I went on to achieve it as a uh you know, as a team principal. and um uh you know and whether that's winning a Grand Prix or winning a world championship um winning a constructor's world championship it's it's having that belief have never losing sight of that that goal because that's what takes you through the you know the tough days the difficult days um when everything seems to be conspiring against you that you've got to keep believing in that target and visualizing that that target um And I would say by and large during my career that's that's that's come true. You you talked about your kind of obsessive um focus on the details. Even looking at a very young age looking at these cassettes and seeing what boots they were wearing. That obsession as well that that obsession on the smallest of details. How has that played a role in everything that happened throughout the the next couple of decades of your life? I think it's it's just a question of leaving no stone unturned. just always pursuing all the incremental areas because they all they all add up and it's all about attention to details and
sometimes it's the smallest things that can make the largest of difference and you you collectively add all of those elements together um and they add up at the end of the day. So um you know particularly in the business that I'm operating in in Formula 1, it is all about the detail. It is all about leaving no stone unturned, about pushing the boundaries, about extracting every ounce of performance out of these amazing machines, which ultimately um it's the people that drive that. And so it's therefore creating a culture that empowers that that um uh that essence of of it never being enough, always striving to achieve more. And uh and then it's almost the fear of failure. that uh that drives you on because once you've sampled and you've tasted success, it becomes addictive like a drug and and you just want to experience it again and you know have that have that winning feeling. It's interesting. So let's start with the culture piece then with the team. So you said it's about creating that culture, a culture where every detail matters in a practical way. There'll be loads of people listening to this podcast now that are building projects or businesses or they might have a dance class, whatever they're doing. um how do they practically make those around them really appreciate the small stuff? Well, I think you have to lead by example and I think that uh you know it's all about um uh you know just continually looking to to improve to be better. So for example the races that we win you know you can always learn it's never ever enough. Um, you know, the last race we won in in Monza, could we have done a better job on the strategy? Could we have been quicker in the pit stop? Um, could we have had a better start? Was our preparation in the leadup to the race, you know, good enough? Did we focus enough attention in the practice sessions on the things that that turned out to be important in in the Grand Prix? So being selfanalytical and is is a key aspect of driving of driving performance and never being satisfied saying yeah no that was good enough because it it never is. There's always something that you can learn that you
can uh that you can improve and that you can build on as you're building this database of continual knowledge. Does that change how you choose people to join the team? Are you looking for people that have a predisposition to care about the small stuff or that have are detail orientated? Well, I think you need uh you know within a team you need different strengths for different roles. And so when you within Formula 1, you've got obviously the design side of the of of the business, the creative side of the business. You've got the operational side where you got to manufacture these these incredible cars and then operate them cost effectively at 22 Grand Pris around around the globe. And so you need need different people for different roles, but it's all having that commonality of which is the car, which is, you know, these two amazing machines that we have to turn out at these 22 races a year and to operate at their at their optimum. And that is the focal point, you know, that everybody's uh, you know, vested interest is is involved in. So you've got to have uh, you know, an eclectic mix of people that that create a team. But so long as the goal that everybody is reaching for and striving for is the same, you know, you're going to have a a myriad of different personalities. I mean, we're we're circus sort of 7 to 800 people uh you know, in our team. Plus then on top of that, we've got an engine group that we're we're building as well. to over a thousand people on one campus in Milton Kees and uh of course you're going to get a vast range of of personalities and characters but the one thing in common is it's all about the car. It's all about performing on the track. How does one keep how is that 22 different departments as well? Yeah. So it's a 22 different departments across across the business and it for me um it's about getting the right people in the right roles and empowering them to do their job so that they've got clear you know objectives clear targets that they've that they're you know that they're shooting for and then backing them. So I see a lot of my role is to ensure that they've got the support around them, they've got the tools around them, that uh that they're
defended when they need defending um and that they're guided when they need that that when they need guidance. And I think that there's no point you I'm not an aerodynamicist or an engineer or I don't have any formal, you know, qualifications bar a couple of A levels. Um so I'm not a specialist in any any one area. So my role is to ensure that I'm putting the right people in the right roles and getting them collectively to work together. Feel like that is the that is the ultimate goal of business. It's funny because as as entrepreneurs sometimes we think that we should be good at everything or that we should um we should know how to do every job better than the person you know within within that team. But what you said there I think is was very very very true in the sense of it's finding the right people and binding them with a culture that gets the best out of them which is not an easy thing to do. It's not because you know there's a lot of pride people have egos as as well but I think it's accepting where your strengths and where your weaknesses are. And I think that that uh not everybody can be a phenomenal aerodynamicist or a you know engineer or a chassis designer or uh you know a number one mechanic. Um and it's a matter of identifying you know the right people for the right roles and then and empowering them to get on their job. There's no point me employing Adrien Nui as, you know, probably the best aerodynamicist in the in the history of the sport and then telling him, you know, how to do his job or telling Max Fappen how to how to drive a car. You know, you can point out things that you're seeing. Um and and and you can uh you know offer some some guidance but in terms of it's down to them in their specialist areas to you know to to operate and you try and give them the right tools and the right environment that enables them to flourish and succeed. Have you had instances in your career where you've hired a very talented And what I mean by that is someone who's so good at their job but ego personality something has just well Formula 1 attracts them and um and egos and are not too far apart sometimes. Um, so but you know you
there's no I in team and I think that you quickly you see um if you have a talented individual that isn't working in a team environment they quickly become isolated um and they either change their way and and embrace the team or they end up falling by the wayside and not achieving their you know their potential because it's too bigger sport to be um you know an individualist in in it. You need to rely and trust in the other people around you and the other departments around you to be able to fulfill your your part. Much of much of management um I think starts with knowing how to manage yourself because if you if you don't manage yourself successfully then you can be a pretty awful manager. Yeah. How how you talked about the self analys self analyzing the team after races, but do you self analyze yourself? Yeah, of course. I mean, you're always thinking, you know, what what could I do better? You know, how could I how could I perform better as a CEO or as a team principal? Um, did I handle that situation correctly? Could, you know, is there another way that we could have addressed that? And I think that what I've learned over time is that I used to, you know, when I first came into the sport, I'd worry about almost everything. And I quickly came to the conclusion, well, there's no point in worrying about everything. Worry about the things you can control, the things that you can't control. Don't let them take your energy. Don't let them take your, you know, your your focus or distract you. focus on the things that that you're empowered that to make a difference in. Um, and then I just I I'm able to I was able to become more disciplined with my time and implying my time more uh more effectively than being spread too thin. Emotional control. In sports, it's very passionate. Yeah, there's a fine line, isn't there? From what I've observed with some of the great, you know, managers in the world like Sir Alex Ferguson and football stars and between like the passion and letting the passion get out of hand. Yeah, absolutely. Anger and, you know, how do you balance that and is it a balancing act?
Well, I think I think the Brits are quite good at that, you know, keeping a stiff upper lip and, you know, head down, get on with it. And for me, you know, last year's World Championship was very much about that. And um you you could see I mean it was a titanic battle not just between the two drivers on track but by you know the two teams off track and the person you're gauging yourself uh and you're pitched against as a team principal is is your opposite number and it's a mental game as much as a a physical uh activity as well. And of course it was the first time that that that team in the seven eight year period had come under under any form of pressure. And I think you see people's true personalities and what they've really got when they're under pressure. So, of course, you know, when you see your counterpart smashing up headphones and pointing and ranting at cameras, you know that you've got to them because then you know that if they're venting in such a way and they're feeling that pressure that the people beneath them are going to be offloaded onto as well, that they're going to be on the receiving end of that. And that, in my opinion, or in my experience, it caused people to tighten up. Um, and I remember before the race in Abu Dhabi getting all the guys together and saying, "Look, whatever happens today is going to happen." Um, you know, all we can do is do the best that we can do today. And the most important thing is, you know, be proud of what you've achieved to get us to this position that we're fighting for this world championship. You know, that we've taken it all the way down to the wire. And most of all, enjoy it. you know, enjoy this experience. Whatever whatever the outcome's going to be, we don't know, but just let's go in there with an approach of give it everything and enjoy it and embrace it. And in the end, you know, it paid off. And I think that as a leader, how you conduct yourself permeates throughout a business. So if if you're feeling the tension and you're passing that on, then for me that's not a healthy way to lead a team by fear. Um you want it to be inclusive. You want it to be open. You want people to be able to feel that they can that they've got a voice and that voice
will be, you know, will be heard rather than being afraid to speak up for fear of getting their, you know, their head taken off. you came into Red Bull when um it it wasn't doing great as a team and over the the next five, six, six years, you really turned that ship around. from the outside. I mean, people might see that as quite a simple thing, but I was reading about how you um you'd you'd come to work on your first day of work, the consultants had flown over and fired the previous management team, which is always causes a little bit of unease, shall I say, and then they fly out and leave you there. And then from there, you've got 450 people in this team that's kind of dysfunctional. It's not it's not reaching its potential. Tell me because there's a lot of I always think about going into companies where there's an existing culture and how you unpick it and turn it around. Tell me how you did that at Red Bull. Well, that first day I arrived, I remember um arriving in uh in the office with a a secretary that was in tears cuz her previous boss had been just fired. Um there was unopened Christmas cards on the desk, a half drunk cup of coffee, and okay. and a fairly disgruntled workforce that had been through a revolving door of management changes whilst the team had been uh you know owned by Jaguar. So um it's like okay how am I you know what's my game plan here and my my plan was engage with the people understand what are the issues listen you spend you know the next few months just listening and form your own picture and so you know that's what I did over the first couple of months I spent time walking around the factory engaging with people listening And then the picture started to come clear that you know there were pockets within the team that that you know there was real capability and and talent but it was just clear that they weren't working collectively. There was this blame culture within the business where the drawing office blamed Arrow Arrow blamed the wind tunnel. Um you know R&D blamed production the race team were blamed everybody. Um and there was just this blame culture that there was no
accountability or collective you know responsibility. So it was then a question of okay how do we unpick that and how do we create the glue to bring this this together. And for me what was really needed was was technical direction. Um and I thought well look I'm going to go after the best in the business. Um and that was Adrienne. Adrienne had had a incredible career at Williams and McLaren. Um, and you know, there'd been, you know, a couple of years where McLaren hadn't been delivering at its uh at its potential and you could see that business was changing and it just felt like there was a window of opportunity. So, uh, you know, I'm made sure I got to, uh, to meet Adrian and I built up a relationship with him and, uh, his then wife and then managed to convince him to come and join the team. Um, and that was a litmus moment because then suddenly people woke up and said, "Wow, if Adrian New is prepared to come here, he must see something that he he believes in." Um, and uh, you know, we set off set off from there. And that then, you know, you know, galvanized the technical care because Adrian's the most single-minded, you know, engineer I've ever uh, ever come across. Um, and you know, that that galvanized the team because it was, well, if Adrian says that's the direction we're going, technically, that's that's the way we're going. And um it then put a sense of purpose into the design office and that enabled me to attract more talent to supplement what was there to weed out the few bits that needed tidying up. But the core basis of the team hadn't really changed from what had been underachieving at Jaguar. We just put in clear leadership into a into a structure and started to instill a culture of it's not just about having the seventh biggest budget which means you're going to finish seventh. It's a question of okay, what can we do? How can we push the boundaries? How can we be more in innovative? How can we take the fight to the guys at the front? Because we're not prepared to settle, you know, being seventh. We want to win. how how what is the fastest route to getting uh into a winning position? Okay, so I've got three questions there that came to mind. The first one was
about single-mindedness in in business and in leadership. Sometimes single-mindedness is seen as being undemocratic and like I think there's sometimes people think that organizations are supposed to be like democratic where everyone gets a vote and then we decide which direction we're going in based on the vote. But you've highlighted single-mindedness in that instance as being a real unifier and a real motivator. Yeah. No, absolutely. And look, you know, of obviously you want to listen and you want to gauge, but at the end of the day, somebody's got to make a decision. Sometimes that might not be the most popular of decisions, but the most important thing is to make a decision to say this is the direction that we're going in. And the most important thing with that once you've committed to a decision to make sure that you give it your best shot. But if it's not working to recognize that it's not working and not be afraid to change to stick your hand up say okay we got it wrong let's go another route because the worst thing is just repeating the same mistake after mistake you know after mistake and I think you know good leadership um is strong leadership where you know people want to know what is the direction what is the objective why are we doing this um what are are we pushing for? What are we striving for? Um and uh you know it's about taking people on that on that journey but uh about having you know very clear goals and objectives that that taking them on the journey with you that I guess that's a job of inspiration and communication. How how how important is that when you're trying to get 450 people to come along with you? really making sure you've nailed down communication and I guess inspiring communication and how has Red Bull done that? I think Red Bull um you know as a business a phenomenal business that have uh you know it's a maverick brand. It's it's pushed the boundaries and everything that it does. It's it's a lifestyle brand. It's um it's always been edgy, you know, with the extreme sports that they've been involved in and and so I'm a bit of a you very much a maverick. And I think taking that DNA and,
you know, implementing it within a Formula 1 team has been, you know, incredibly effective. And uh what's enabled us to be dynamic is that we've had the full support you know of the of the chairman you know of Dietrich Matashitz who you has been passionate about this uh this activity and he's you know unwaveringly you know backed us and there were difficult days where you know things came you came under scrutiny but he gave the time um and the stability within and allowed the stability within the BIS business for us to really cultivate, you know, a winning machine and with the key people in the right in in the right positions. and uh uh you know he's been phenomenal in the support that he's shown us and the and the freedom that he's enabled us to have to operate effectively, efficiently, quickly and sharply without being bogged down by the process of a uh you know a corporate entity. Um, so we've kept that agility and even though the company has grown to three times the size that uh when when Red Bull came into the sport is maintain that racing spirit that that ability to make quick decisions whether it's on a driver or sponsor or a uh a member of staff or a you know whatever it may be. We've had that dynamic ability to move and and adapt quickly. It's so important. I I spend so long, you know, I spent 10 years working with CEOs and founders on their marketing and I'd see time and time again how really the cost wasn't being wrong, it was being slow. So it was taking 9 months to find out you were wrong versus the team over here that would spend. So if we were pitching an idea, we pitch it to two companies at the same time. Say one of them would take nine months to find out that the idea was bad. The other one would take one week to find out it was bad and they'd be on to the next one. and that and people don't think of like the design of the very top of the organization, the relationship the CEO has with the chairman and no like stifling board in the way is such a huge competitive advantage over time. Absolutely. And I think you know recently we've had exactly that dilemma where you know we had the opportunity to work you know with an OEM taking a significant shareholding in the team but I think it was recognized that hang on
that that DNA will be affected um if we cannot continue to operate exactly in the manner that's made us successful with that ability to make quickfire decisions um without having to go through layers and layers of you know process and and bureaucr democracy. Quick word from one of our sponsors. I've got a tip for all of you that will make your virtual meeting experiences, I think, 10 times better. As some of you may know by now, Blue Jeans by Verizon offers seamless, highquality video conferencing. But the reason why I use Blue Jeans versus other video conferencing tools is because of immersion. Their tools make you feel more connected to the employees or customers you're trying to engage with. And now they're launching one of their biggest feature enhancements to impact virtual events so far called Blue Jean Studio. I actually used it the other day. I did a virtual event using the studio which I think about 700 of you came to TV level production quality all done by one person with very little technical experience on a laptop. So if you've got an event coming up and you're thinking about doing it virtually, check out Blue Jeans Studio Now. Let me know what you think cuz I genuinely believe I know this is an advert and I'm supposed to say this, but I genuinely believe it's the best tool I've seen for doing really immersive, simple, but high quality production virtual events. Quick one. For many years, people have been asking for a coffee flavored Hule. And quite recently, Hu released the iced coffee caramel flavor of their um ready to drink Hules. And I've just become hooked on it over the last couple of weeks. I've been on a really interesting journey with Hule, which I've described and talked about a little bit on this podcast. I started with the berry ready to drinks. Then I moved over to the protein salted caramel because it's 100 calories and it gives you all of your essential vitamins and minerals but also gives you the 20 odd grams of protein you need. And now I'm balanced between them both. I drink mostly the banana flavor ready to drink. I've got really into the iced coffee caramel um flavor of of ready to drink and now I'm drinking that as well as the protein. Make sure you try the new ready to drink flavors. The the caramel flavor is
amazing. The um new banana flavor as well is amazing. And obviously, as I said, the iced coffee caramel flavor has been a real smash hit. So check it out. Let me know what you think on social media. I see all of your tags and Instagram posts and tweets about Hu. Back to the podcast. You talked about innovation being both at the heart of the Red Bull brand, but also um it being a big component of what you brought to Red Bull to make it a winning machine. How did the Red Bull team innovate versus other incumbents? I think we grabbed the regulations. So, initially it was about building and and making sure that we got the right tools. So, from 2005 when Red came into the sport for the first four years was about, you know, recruiting Adrian, getting some other key people around him, making sure that we got the right simulation tools and our wind tunnel was delivering reliable results. And then a big regulation change came for the 2009 season, which felt like a a clean sheet of paper for this group to really, you know, grab hold of. And um it was a big regulation change at the at the time. And you know we got it we got it right or mainly right um because there was contention with the governing body about something called a double diffuser which um certain teams had and others didn't. But it got caught up in the politics between the governing body and the commercial rights holder and the teams who were all arguing for a bigger share. We sort of got caught in the crossfire of that, you know, when it was really about Ferrari and and the FIA and had nothing to do with Red Bull, but we come up with a competitive car. Um, and then suddenly, you know, we were able to start competing and start winning and we were making mistakes, but we were we were fast, we were challenging, we were winning races. and we lost out on that championship at the end of the year to Jensen Button and and and Ross Brawn because we'd had a weak start um due to these this regulation uh discrepancy. Um but then from you know 2010 we took that momentum into that year and we were still a little rough around the edges but we managed to you know basically polish ourselves enough that we came out with both championships at the end of 2010 11. Then we went on and and was a
totally dominant year and then a big regulation came for 12. we had to adopt to that and won it at the final race in in Brazil against Fernando Alonzo and then stability into 2013 saw another dominant year um for the team and then obviously then it was a complete reset because when 2014 came along all of the engine regulations changed to this V6 hybrid and we were completely out of bed. the engine that we had was nowhere near the competitiveness of uh certainly that Mercedes had come up with and suddenly you go from being serial winners to turning up at a race and not having a chance of success and that was that was tough to keep the hearts and minds of the people um having been used to winning to suddenly turning up and you know if we're lucky we we won three races that year that were all opportunistic but you you know, in terms of competing for a championship, no chance. How do you do that? How do you keep their hearts and minds motivated, focused? I think you you you identify again the area that's that's causing the weakness and look to address it. Um, and focus on the bits that you can control. So, the engine we couldn't control that was from a third party, you know, supplier. We could put pressure on them. we could we could try and uh assist them with tools that we had, but all we could do is ensure that we made the best chassis that we could possibly make that we got the best drivers and we got the best out of them. And so, um, you know, races that weren't sensitive to power, you know, we could challenge and win those where it was a Monaco or it was a, you know, Buddha pest type, you know, uh, circuit. um and uh then looked to address the the weakness and it took us until 2019 and again a big change from uh one engine supplier to another manufacturer to Honda to suddenly have that ability to you know start challenging for for for victories and start to build a championship challenge. I didn't realize that in um in Formula 1 there were so many changes with engines and regulations so often. It's changing all the time. Sometimes even in the year really, you know, changes are introduced and uh you know, we've seen that we've seen
that this year. Um and it's not uncommon for clarifications or technical directives sometimes hidden behind the grounds of safety to be, you know, to be introduced. And it's about how you adapt to those changes. And that's a culture question of culture, right? It is is, you know, you can push against it, but at a certain point, you've got to accept it and uh uh and and get on with it and and think, okay, how how can we turn you, you know, into fertilizer, you know, at the end of the day. And and and you got to embrace you got to embrace the change and you got to go with it. When I look at my competition in all the industries that I'm competing in professionally, I could tell you the answer to the question why why I will win. Like I have my thesis as to why me and my team will beat them. Yeah. Um based on it might be culture, it might be philosophy, it might be we care more about this thing and over the long term that's going to pay off. When you look at your competition, which has been Mercedes, yes, for in all the press and on on the racetrack over the last couple of years, why do you think your team will win? I think that there's several factors. I think that, you know, some things performance is always cyclical and you Mercedes went through an incredible winning spree, you know, longer than we certainly did and at some point that was always going to come to an end whether it's through complacency or what whatever causes that. And I wanted to make sure that we were the team on the upward graph to capitalize on uh any sign of weakness. And I think you know there was several components. One of course is the driver. The driver played a key role, you know, in that in that Max Fappen, you know, emerging as this exciting, determined character. And you will not meet a more determined personality or driver with more commitment and and passion than than Max. and the team just having this this inner belief and and again pushing all of the boundaries, operating at a level that was taking ourselves out of our comfort zone. Whether that be well record-breaking pit
stops, aggressive strategies, attacking strategies, taking calculated risks um to you know with high risk high reward and uh with very much an attitude of we've got nothing to lose. you know, we've got we've got to throw everything at this. And I think it just in the end came down to to desire that there was more desire. Um, and the way that we applied ourselves as a team under massive pressure. Um, we dealt with that pressure. Yeah. You know, in a in a very together manner. How hard do you push people? I know you said you let them get on with their job and that they know better than than you do at what they're there to do, but in terms of those one-on-one conversations you're having with those people to get them to break those records in the pit stop or to get them to really embody the culture of Red Bull and want to win, regardless of whether they've won last year, regardless of what's been written about in the press. What are those conversations and how hard do you do you have to push? I think you've always got to encourage people to get out of their comfort zone. Um because if you're in your comfort zone, you're cruising. You've got to push yourself. Now, I'm not a table banger or, you know, a haird dryer like an Alex Ferguson, but it's about getting people to go that extra go that extra step to take themselves out of their comfort zone. Easiest thing in the world is not to have any change, but you've got to continually evolve. Um and so whilst we've had tremendous stability, the way that the organization has evolved is even in the last 2 years is enormous as we've embraced new challenges of taking on being an engine manufacturer uh which is something completely nuts. Why would an energy drinks subsidiary take on MercedesBenz and Ferrari and Renault and Honda as a being an engine manufacturer? But it's it it takes our own destiny into our own control and brings everything under one one roof and becomes completely integrated. So in many respects it's totally logical. Um but starting from scratch is just about attracting again all the same basics that served us well on the chassis of getting the right people, the right tools, the right structure and having a can do attitude of yeah, we're going to we're going to
shoot for the stars and maybe we're going to land on the moon. But you know, we're not afraid of taking on a challenge. Have you got a complacency detector built into your mind? Can you sense when you feel like people in teams are becoming complacent? You can you can sense it. You can you can feel it. You know, if I have um you know there's almost a guilt factor that you feel that well I don't feel like I'm busy enough. I need to be busier. Um and you so you push yourself and I think in turn you end up you know pushing other areas of the of the business and I think COVID was a a phenomenal challenge. um that you know I took everybody by surprise again how do you take on that challenge and you know we had went from a culture of having probably about five people that had the ability to work remotely because we're paranoid about IP and information going out of the business overnight we went to 400 we didn't even know whether our IT systems would be able to cope with it and then had to maintain that culture during this totally alien process of being locked in your in your home but and everything happening on Zoom calls and uh and video conferencing and having to design a car remotely. Um but by keeping that essence of team and communicating and and talking uh we managed to keep that embody that sense of of of team um and uh I think that was a big factor in why we came up with such a competitive car in 20 or for the 2021 season because what we'd done through COVID in keeping that essence of team together just gave us a better product for 2021. You must really obsess about the small stuff because you know all these different departments, all these teams, all it takes is a small pocket of complacency for the standards to drop a couple of percent in the car. If one team doesn't communicate properly or if they just don't, you know, really push themselves to find a marginal gain that can cause like a couple of percent drop in the performance of the car. That can lose you a a championship. You can lose championships as we've seen. Yeah. In seconds.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. After years of work. just a few seconds. But I think what we've managed to um develop within the business now is this this uh again culture of not wanting to let the side down, not wanting to be the link in the chain that that that that breaks. and uh you know whether that's from you know van drivers hitting deliveries of you know to to suppliers to machinists or designers or uh technicians at the circuit or or or mechanics or engineers. um that runs the whole way through the business that nobody wants to let the side down. And I think that uh everybody's got that vested interest in seeing those cars, you know, succeed. And when they do, the sense of pride and fulfillment and of course you have to celebrate success. You have to enjoy success because it's not going to happen every single day. You're going to lose a lot more races than you're going to win. So when you win, embrace it. Enjoy it. Celebrate that moment, which is what we do as a team after every single race. If we win a race, we get everybody together with a champagne after the race in the race bays on a Monday uh you know afternoon to celebrate that success. And if we haven't won, you know, we we'll talk about, okay, why didn't we win? What do we need to do better? Even when we won and we've celebrated, we say, okay, how can we still be better? How can we improve, you know, on this? and and getting everybody to share that moment, to share in that success is something that's so so important. Um because then everybody collectively feels it. After you won the title in 2021, how did it feel? 2021 for me personally was a hugely challenging year because there was the pressure of everything going on track. Um there was an awful lot going on on off track as well as we're building this engine business and so you're recruiting from your rival teams and because Mercedes being UK based there was a lot of people coming out of Mercedes that heightened the pressure. There was then a big PR uh battle as well. So you're in front of the cameras every week. You're having to defend your position or defend your driver and and it was very concerted in in all direction. And you
could feel the pressure and building and building. It was like a heavyweight bout from round one in Bahrain through 22 rounds to when we got it to to Abu Dhabi. And we went into Abu Dhabi equal on points with Max being a head virtue of um uh race victories. Mercedes had gone there with the barristers because they were convinced that Max was just going to drive into um Lewis I think on the first lap and uh they'd be arguing it out uh in the in in the stewards but you know we qualified on on pole and then for the majority of that race um we felt that decisions went AC against us at the beginning of the race because Max had made a pass and Lewis had cut the chicane but he wasn't told to give the position back and everything we tried in that case, it felt like it was slipping away. And so what was going through my mind was like, how am I going to pick the guys up, you know, after what am I going to say to Max? How, you know, after such an intense season like this? Um, you know, what am I going to going to say to them? And then suddenly it just shows that you anything can happen in life. And suddenly a a window of opportunity presented itself with um one of the back markers crashing. Uh and you know we had to be on our feet. We took the risk. We made the pit stop. We bolted on a new set of tires and Mercedes went defensive and conservative and that gave us a window of opportunity to challenge for one racing lap. Um, and with a fresh set of tires and Max Vstappen in your car, he was going to go for it. And so when he pulled the move off at a corner that we completely unexpected, I think Lewis totally unexpected it because he left the door open there trying to get a good exit onto the onto the straight. It was like, "Oh my god." And then you they're going down the straight. They're side by side and you know they get to the chicane and it's he went in a little bit deep and you know the strength of Mercedes engine on the straight line. you've got to get the exit onto the next straight and then they're side by side and then he managed to keep and protect the the the inside line into the next left hand and you know at that point it's done bar
you know something breaking on the car and then the feeling of of just everything being lifted uh and to see him after seven long years of we've been nowhere we hadn't even been able to challenge them and then suddenly to see everything culminate in seeing your driver and car and team cross the check of lap flag to become the world champion. That that was that was just it was very emotional and you just felt all this pressure suddenly lift from you. Was that the greatest professional moment of your career today? Undoubtedly. I mean the first time I won it uh you I was 35 or something like that and that was on the last race in Abu Dhabi against the odds with Sebastian Battle. So that was a unique feeling and it was one of the rare races that Dietri Matitz would uh that actually came to. So for him to be there was very special and um that you know that was a massive moment for the whole for the whole company for the whole business. Uh but I think having been through the tough times during that period of not just domination, annihilation by one of your opponents, um to never lose sight of what the end goal was and to fulfill that and to win it on the last lap. I mean, you you couldn't have written it. Nobody would have believed it. If somebody came up with a script and said, "That's the way this season's going to pan out." Nobody would have uh you know, believed it. Um, so for sure it was, you know, probably the the the biggest moment of my career so far. And the whole world was watching. I think if people weren't into the F1, someone sent them a text and told them to turn the TV on at that point. I remember that's certainly what happened with me. I remember getting many messages and in some of our sports chats on WhatsApp going, "Oh my god, oh my god, oh, so you turn on the TV and you're watching this last lap and it's just the most crazy. It was insane." and and of course like you know it was one of the most I think it was the most singly viewed piece of sport um certainly last year if not in the last 5 years and there'll probably never be a Formula 1 championship like it in the next 20 years
um it was so epic and of course sport is polarizing so you know on the one hand you've got you know the Vstafen fans going bananas thinking it was retribution for what had happened early in the year. You've got the the Hamilton fans thinking that, you know, the race had been interfered with and it was unfair. Um, and then you've got the neutrals that had just witnessed the most phenomenal race between two magnificent drivers and teams operating at the at the top of their game. And so for the sport, you know, it was it was fantastic because suddenly again we're just engaging with a whole new audience and wherever we go in the world now, you know, Formula 1 is having its moment in the spotlight. It is, you know, it is sold out and the demand for Formula 1 is just huge wherever we go. If I had a button on the desk now and the button was a eraser button and it would erase Mercedes as a team, it just erased the whole team. Would you press it? No, because it's enjoyable, you know, racing against a team of their quality because I mean they raised the stakes and they raised the bar and then we had to raise it higher to beat them. And so the uh the satisfaction that that gives you um is immense. And I think what you know what we're really proud of this year is that we put everything into last year even at the expense of this year because again another massive regulation change coming into this year the biggest in the last 40 years. with it, console ourselves to say, look, we'll put more time into 2021 and if that costs us a slower start to 22, we'll take that if we can come away with a trophy. Um, we managed to come away with the trophy, but we also managed to start the season with a competitive car compared to all of the other teams that had, you know, we were sure the last team to swap over onto the 22 car, but such was the determination and and the motivation within the within the business. Uh, and the talent, the car that's been delivered for the drivers this year has been again phenomenal. Where does your motivation come from? You've won. You've won. You've won. You've gone through a period of, you know, a battle with Mercedes, you've won again. What is driving you now?
For me, um, you there's no better feeling than winning. And when you've won, you want to win it again and you want to win it again. But for me, the next challenge as well is really the next chapter for the company where not only as a chassis manufacturer, but as an engine manufacturer, taking a business from scratch. Build that. We built a factory in 55 weeks. We designed and fired up an engine within 12 months. These are ridiculous time scales that we're operating to. But again, it just typifies the the the can do culture that you know that there is within the business. And so for sure, the next challenge for us is as a as a as an engine and power unit manufacturer to take on some of these iconic brands. um you know come 2026 when a Red Bull car pulls out of the garage with a Red Bull engine powering it going up against the Ferraris and Mercedes and Audi's at the time and I thought it's he's going to be phenomenal naivity you became a principal at a very young age a lot of incumbents were double your age a lot of you know the it was quite a an older business with legacy systems and ways of doing things people often view naivity and youth as a disadvantage. How was it? How was your naivity an advantage to you in hindsight? I turned it to an advantage because I think people underestimate youth. Um, and for me, age was never a barrier. It was it was just a number and it's how you apply yourself. So, when I came into the sport, I was the youngest team principal in Formula 1. I still am to this day, ironically. Really? Yeah. Jesus. After 18 years. Wow. Um, but you know, there were guys that have been in sport icons of the sport, you know, whether it was a Bernie Eckleston's or Ron Dennis or Flavio Bri or Jean Todd running Ferrari and even Eddie Jordan was still around with with Jordan uh Grand Prix at the time and all, you know, very entrepreneurial people but all very different but very single-minded and again it's how you you conduct yourself and um I didn't go into you know, into that forum banging tables or anything like that. I I looked, I
listened and I I would say something when I felt I had something to say. Um, and and you learn as well, you know, you learn from a way that, you know, Ron Dennis conducts himself versus a Flavia Britori versus a Frank Williams or, you know, Bernie Eckleston. uh again as a complete ring master. How he operated the business was you know was a phenomenal education you know for me and what you saw in each one of those people it just presented itself in a very different way way was this ruthless competitiveness. When you have a ruthless competitiveness you're obsessed. You want to win. You're traveling six months a year to compete and to win. You're consumed in these external battles with the media and on the track and off the track and with this team and Mercedes and whatever else. How do you then be a husband and a father? Do you know that is the one thing that keeps you grounded. Um and you I'm very fortunate. I've got a a really uh supportive wife um who's obviously experienced high pressure situations herself of having to deliver and knowing what the scrutiny of uh Jerry, you know, media operated world is like. So, so she, you know, she's been tremendously um you know, supportive. Um, and you know, I have a you know, uh, three children. Um, and they're they're what keep you grounded. Um, you know, they don't care what you do as a job at at the end of the day. You know, my um 8-year-old daughter is obsessed with horses at the moment. My 5-year-old boy is just wanting to uh, you know, make Lego and F-16 fighter planes. Um, and uh, you my 16-year-old daughter suddenly she now understands what I do and I've actually in her eyes almost become cool. Um, so but you know, family is what keeps you keeps you grounded and it keeps you Formula 1 is a very glamorous world from the outside looking in. It can be a lonely place at at times. Um, but at the end of the day, we're not saving lives. Um, you know, it's an entertainment. is a sport and what really matters you know is family at the end of the day and uh and that I think makes it more precious in that you don't take it for granted. So the time that I do get with a family I think it's very important to be present and and you know
not to take it for advantage. So, uh, you know, I'll make sure that that I take, you know, the little one to to school or pick my daughter up from school on a, uh, on a Friday cuz I want I want to be there. I don't want to be an absent, uh, father cuz I'll never get that time time back. So, and that then is being disciplined with the management of your own time because otherwise, you know, your phone's, you know, always next to you. It can take, you know, Formula 1 can take over your life if you're not disciplined in in uh in your own approach. Are you content? Am I content? I am very content in so many ways, but I'm still extremely hungry. Um and you know, when is enough enough? It doesn't feel like it's enough at the moment. It never will be. And uh I think that drives you, you know, some people are happy to cruise, others want to keep want to keep pushing. And and you know, I'm I feel like I've only just got going. Do you ever think you will it will ever be enough? uh who know the problem you know that that you that certainly happens in in in this industry and I guess is the same in in others is that time moves so quickly you never get five minutes to reflect and look back you're always looking forward you know this championship the chapter will close we'll enjoy it for you know a couple of evenings and then it's all about the next one and so you never get time to reflect so actually sitting here talking about some of the subject in the past you you start to think to think back and I think it's it's only when you get to the end of the journey that then you know then uh you get time to reflect and I think when I get to the end of my journey I will go away and do something completely different. I'll be a sheep farmer or something like that but uh um yeah I think uh but I don't see that in in sight at the moment. Could you ever imagine there being an end to your journey? Is that something you can foresee now? Could you imagine getting to the day where you think, do you know what? Pina colada is for me. Do you know what? I I I go to work.
Um, and every day I enjoy what I do. Um, I I'm grateful that I'm paid to do a job that actually I do it for free because, you know, you enjoy it, you love it. I enjoy working with the people. I enjoy the sport. I enjoy the competition. uh I'd probably be completely unemploy employable in another uh form of of life. And I think if you got a passion for something that you do, you do it that much better. Um and yeah, money at the end of the day is is just a valuation of success. Um it shouldn't be the reason that you go to work. Um and uh for me um uh you know while I have that drive while I have that enjoyment on the bad days as well as the as well as the good days that's what you know motivates me and I think maybe there'll be a day one day that you know I've had enough but I I can't see or envisionage that. Have you ever been anxious? All that press scrutiny all the pressure you described. Have you ever had moments of anxiety? I think about 10 years ago uh when we were in the height of a championship battle um back in 2012 I can remember uh feeling that that uh you know my breathing you know I became self-conscious of my own breathing and then when you start thinking about your breathing you you you start overinking things and and for me as an an I think what what is going you know have I had too much coffee. Did I have a Red Bull or too many Red Bulls, you know, this morning or whatever, and I couldn't identify, you know, what it was. Um, and uh it was only um uh you know, when I spoke to the the team physio, I said, "Look, I'm just conscious of my breathing and it's made me feel a bit dizzy and I think I've had too much coffee and this that and the other." He said, 'Well, it's probably a bit of anxiety, you know, and and so I'd never, you know, I thought that that was a form of of weakness. M um and and then I read about it and I spoke to a couple of people about it and you know you then learn to control your you know your breathing and and and so on and uh and and I could then recognize if I felt during that period this feeling start to come on you know just to to to to you know to breathe breathe normally, to not take
short breaths, but to be taking, you know, deep breaths and and so on. And it sort of crept up on me without, you know, recognizing it. Same. And, uh, yeah, it's not so it's not it it's not a weakness. It's just your body telling you that, you know, there's a lot going on here. Um, and it's it's it's way of protesting. Um, and that's what what was happening to me at at that time. and I recognized it and managed to, you know, to to address it. And um there's so many ways whether it's meditation or just exercise or or as I say breathing that uh um and and and yeah, I was able to then if ever I got those symptoms, I was able to to recognize it and say, "Okay, hello. I know who you are. You know, I can deal with you." Did you ever seek out therapy? Did you ever go get a therapist? something I didn't I mean my wife is pretty together with all these things and um she she'd experienced the same thing whether it was you before a show or or you know some of the stuff they did was insane crazy and um and so you know she she helped me uh you know with it um and to you know to yeah you know to em embrace it to recognize it to sort out your breathing I tried meditating. I absolutely got I can you know um and I admire her because she has the discipline to do that every you know every day. Uh I just haven't got my mind is too is too active. Um but uh you know just definitely um learning to to deal with it and and it you know it passed. It was it was with me for a couple of months and and and it passed and I think it was just my body saying, "Okay, stress overload here. Yeah, give me a break." It's what everyone's body seems to do. Gary Neville said to me when he was sat here that he'd been going at such a pace for so long that one day after reporting on I think it was the Arsenal game. He's in the commentary box and he just collapses. Yeah. He goes to the doctors, the doctor says, "Listen, Gary, you're going too fast. You've been doing it for too long. You need to slow down." He hasn't.
But it's funny how the body will tell you before you admit it to yourself. 100% 100%. My last question to you before I just ask you this one in the book is on a personal level, what are you working on? I understand your professional ambitions. It's very clear, but on a personal level, when you think about what you want to improve about yourself with your in your personal situation, what is what is that? I think it's just trying to be um you know, the best father that you can be, the best husband that you can be. Um, I think that, you know, we're all aware of our own mortality, particularly with events like, you know, who thought the queen was going to, you know, going to die with that. And again, and that just brings it all home to you that, you know, we're we're on this planet for such a short period of time to, you know, do as much as you can with the time that we that that we have here and to uh ensure that you make time Um because we're all, you know, particularly informal one, you're chasing time all the time. Your life is dictated by the by the stopwatch. But it's important to make time um to be able to have, you know, that that that uh incredibly important family time. Um and uh and yeah, just to be able to to to chill out uh which sometimes is difficult to to be able to relax is sometimes a tough thing to do, especially if you're working at a you know, on a high tempo, but um uh you know, as in work, you can always you can always be better. You can always do better. Eddie Han said that to me obviously his book is I know you've spoken to him, but his book is called Relentless. Yeah, he is someone that I don't think is willing to relax at any cost. And I hear that quite often. We have a tradition here where the last guest asks a question for the next guest. They don't know who they're writing it for. Right. And the question that's been written for you is quite an interesting one. I don't get to see it until I open this book, but the question that's been written for you is, this can be taken in many ways.
Okay. How will you control your own greed? How will I control my own greed? Um, I think greed is greed and jealousy are two very destructive components. Um, and I think I've never been a greedy person, but I think you're greedy for titles. Greedy for titles. um in that respect, but I think you need to be magnanimous as well. And I think that if you're fortunate enough to um you know achieve success, the most gratifying thing to be able to do is to do something good with it, to empower something either, whether it be through charity work or or just making a difference. making a difference for for good because it's not just about the trophies and the uh and the plaudit. It's sometimes about doing something good as well. Do you spend enough time thinking about that? Um I don't. I'm going to I'm going to admit I don't. You can always do more. You can always do more. And when you do something good and and that can be more rewarding than winning a race and that the feeling that gives you think actually I should actually do do more. There's there's almost a bit of a bias with the mind when you when you feel like you're constantly running to keep things moving and throwing coal in the engine that you think I'll do that thing when I'll be the philanthropist when I remember one day sitting here with someone who said the correct approach Steve is to make sure you're you don't cut down the forest and then donate to the bees. You're learning to do both at the same time effectively. Absolutely. Thank you so much for your time. um incredibly inspiring individual that's reached the very peak of their powers. And there's very few people I can speak to in this country and in the world that have managed to stay at the top of their game championship after championship whether they win or whether they don't
win. And re that reinvention and what sits behind that in terms of team and culture and philosophy and optimism and attitude is so fascinating to me because winning is one thing but continuing to win with new people as the world is changing as regulations are changing around you is a completely different task especially in such a technical industry like yours where there's so many components that you have to leave to trust. So, it's so inspiring to read your story. Um, and it's so wonderful to see F1 becoming more and more popular in culture because there's so much about it that um I think we teaches us lessons about life and teamwork and all of these really important fundamentals. Um, and yeah, it's it's an honor to meet you as well because from an entrepreneurial business standpoint, you're an inspiration to me for so many reasons. So, thank you for the conversation today. Thank you for being so honest and open and I appreciate your time. No, thank you very much. I've enjoyed it. Quick one. As you might know, Crafted are one of the sponsors of this podcast and they make really meaningful pieces of jewelry. This lion piece they've made, I wear all the time along with the little time piece, the sand timer that I wear often. And the lion piece, you might have seen Conor McGregor has a similar piece which was custom made for him. For me, it represents courage. And if you walk through my house, the house that I'm in right now, if you walk six feet in that direction, you'll see a huge lion portrait. If you go upstairs, you'll see a lion portrait. If you look behind me on the shelf near the top there, you'll see a lion as well. The reason my house and my life is surrounded by lions is because they represent courage, calmness, and that tenacity that I've applied to my business success, to my professional life, and to everything in between. For me, the lion has always been an animal that can be almost a bit of a contradiction. They are so loving and so caring of their own and can be powerful and courageous when necessary in order to achieve what they want to achieve. So, if you like me are a big fan of courage, bravery, ambition while also being calm and composed, check out this line piece and let me know if you get
it. [Music] [Music]