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I can help you get more of what you want create the highest form of discipline how not to care about what other people think that's the meaning of life right there so Brian holiday the modern day philosopher king whose books have sold more than 4 million copies all across the world helping people to live better more meaningful lives we live in a time where we procrastinate it's totally screwed up why do we not prioritize our health why do we not do the stuff that we know we should do it's because we think we have forever but the reality is you do have a terminal diagnosis and to live in rejection of that fact is to waste your life so how do we change that it takes a lot of courage and it takes a lot of discipline discipline is the ability to do hard stuff that you don't want to do for benefits way down the line and there's almost no one who is successful in life who does not have that form of discipline like if you can cultivate that you're gaining Freedom that a lot of people have never even tasted but it's very hard to be disciplined as you're stuffing your face or if you feel like garbage you need struggle so do something physically difficult every day a strong mind and a strong body you have to have both so what do you say to those people that find themselves completely absent of apparent discipline it's such a critical thing that you need is otherwise somebody else determines whether you're good or not and that's not how you want to go through life so here's a set of strategies that will help you whatever life has in store for you the first would be quick one this is really really fascinating to me on the back end of our YouTube channel it says that 69.9 of you that watch this channel frequently over the lifetime of this channel haven't yet hit the Subscribe button I just wanted to ask you a favor it helps this channel so much if you choose to just subscribe helps us scale the guess helps us scale the production and it makes the show bigger so if I could ask you for one favor if you've watched this show before and you've enjoyed it and you like this episode that you're currently watching could you please hit the Subscribe button thank you so much and I will repay that gesture by making sure that everything
we do here gets better and better and better and better that is a promise I'm willing to make you do we have a deal [Music] Ryan how do you summarize what you do and why you do it why I do it is much easier for me to articulate which is that I get better for doing it like we tend to think of philosophy as this thing that you consume that you read or listen to but it's it's actually more of like a discourse it's a conversation and so the process of writing about and talking about and researching the stoics like is made me a better person uh because I've I've been actually that is what stoicism is it's this process of uh Reading Writing and debating these ideas and that's how they sort of get into your bloodstream and and then hopefully in actual situations in your life you apply them right so why I write about philosophy is to me much clearer what I would Define the philosophy that I talk about as that's a little tougher uh I I write about an obscure School of Angel velocity called stoicism maybe people have heard of Marcus Aurelius or Seneca or Epictetus that's the those are the big three that we call them but basically starting in ancient Greece and making its way to ancient Rome there was this practical Philosophy for life so not theoretical or abstract ideas sort of unanswerable questions or Paradox that's kind of what we tend to think of philosophy as stoicism was like how should a person live right what is the good life how do I deal with my temper how do I deal with the fact that I'm afraid of death how what kind of job should I have like what are my obligations to other people philosophy in the stoic senses was designed to be the sort of guide To Living and what I do is I I am continuing and popularizing that conversation which has been going on for something like 22 23 centuries one of the things you've really reframed in a lot of people's minds is that is the word discipline and what it means yeah because the definition of discipline that I understood before discipline is Destiny was this kind of painful restraint despite my urges for the sake of some kind of goal that I have yeah
um what is discipline in your definition of the word and what that really means that it's core well I think it's important to note that the Stokes are talking about self-discipline right so discipline is not you know the marine sergeant telling everyone else what to do how to be right the Stokes are talking about the virtue of self-discipline which is you have your standards that you selected for yourself that you are living up to it's not a weapon that you wielded in to other people right and I think so often when we hear discipline we think disciplinarian right someone who's really strict one of the beautiful lines in meditations Marx realists is um remember tolerant with others strict with yourself and actually that that itself demands so much more discipline right to be like uh I never accept being late for me or for other people right I work hard I judge people that are not in shape right I expect long hours from everyone that works for me you know there's that sort of rigid strict form of discipline but to I I have found in my own journey in my own life that it actually requires more discipline to go this is what I expect of myself and this is how I'm wired this is how I operate best and then I understand that other people not only do I not control them but they have different proclivities different ways of living different ways of being and that my job is to figure out how to adapt myself to them instead of forcing them to be like me Marcus to really is it's fascinating he has this stepbrother and there could not be more two more different people than Marcus Aurelius and his stepbrother Lucius Ferris and Marcus makes this remarkable decision soon after becoming Emperor which is that he names his stepbrother this guy has no blood relation to he names him co-emperer the first thing he does with unlimited power is he gives half of it away to someone with an almost opposite style of living being leadership and in the beginning of meditations Marx realist he talks about his brother like at length he doesn't call him his step brother calls him his brother and he says you know what I learned from my brother he says I'm so grateful to have had this person
in my life a man whose character helped me improve my own and the point was I think not only did he have to learn how to practice the virtues of acceptance flexibility meeting people where they are but Marcus had to adjust himself and find the good in this person and and not try to make this person just like him or be disappointed and judgmental of this person for not being just like them right and so when we think of discipline so often it's rendered as this form of rigidity but I think the highest form of discipline is the ability to it to adjust and be flexible and adapt and the really great leaders really great people managed to get stuff out of people who are not like them right they don't write someone off because they don't have the same high standards as them or they don't get that person to reach those high standards through Force right or bullying or judgment but but through example through inspiration right through uh discussion and so I don't know I'm trying to render discipline not only in that sense but I think often also when we think of discipline we think about it in the physical form right discipline is running harder running longer lifting more weight working more hours and that physical discipline is essential and there's almost no one who is successful in life who does not also have that form of physical discipline and in the instruction you say discipline gives us freedom which again feels like that's typically not what people think of discipline we think of discipline as taking our freedom and making our lives as you say more rigid yeah as you were saying then like more rigid and less less choices less optionality but in the introduction of your book you say discipline gives us freedom Epictetus is this slave he's a slave in Nero's court and imagine the contrast this person who has no Freedom completely impoverished their body their work their labor is all stolen from them and then they're surrounded by not just opulence but power right and ambition and fame right be surrounded by the The Who's Who of Roman life and Epictetus looks around and he realizes that he's Freer than all these people and he realizes he's Freer than all these people because
they're not in control of themselves they might be legally free but they're slaves to their ambition or their slaves to the job they've gotten or their family name or their urges their Temptations right and he realizes that if you're not in control of your aversions and your desires right he says these are the two forces of human life what you want what you don't want if you're not in command of what you do what you think it really doesn't matter you know what your legal status is right you're not as free as you think you are and I think we've all experienced that you you've met people you've probably had them on the show enormous Bank balances enormous followings uh hugely powerful jobs and then you know they're like sorry I have a heart out at 1106. you know or whatever right like they're running from thing to thing their phone is constantly ringing like they're sitting here they're the powerful person but someone's coming whispering and like the assistant is actually in charge right or or um you know the the wanting the the more the next thing the next accomplishment that's what's really driving them and and so you know the stoics were successful and they did do things in the world they weren't all like Epictetus but they did they they understood that if you're not in charge of yourself and your life like your emotions your thoughts you know what you will do and what you won't do it really doesn't matter what you can do you're not free and and when you are in this way of something whether it's an addiction uh whether it's momentum of your career um whether it's just doing what everyone else is doing like you're not you're not free and so creating structure and rules it can feel limiting and like you're giving up freedom but you're actually gaining Freedom that a lot of people have never even tasted I've been thinking a lot recently about um the commitments we make to ourselves and the importance of keeping those commitments sure and I'm thinking when I say that I mean the small things I'm
gonna do this yeah I mean it's Jordan Peterson might say like I'm gonna make my bed well or it could be I'm gonna quit quit drinking alcohol or I'm gonna have vegetables instead of I don't know Pizza these small commitments we make and the impact they have on the story We believe about ourselves yeah and I've I was just thinking I think it was this morning or I was going to write something about it how the size of the commitments we keep to ourselves correlates to the size of the the reward it spits out on the other end so if we keep big commitments to ourselves in terms of the impact on our self-esteem our self-story the evidence we have about Who We Are it has a correlates really that's not even a word but it has an equally big output what do you think about that keeping commitments to ourselves in uh in the road the Cormac McCarthy novel The the little boy is talking to his dad they're sitting around a campfire and they they've agreed to like oh split everything evenly sort of the system they have the Dad gives the sun like a little more of the hot chocolate like he's trying to be nice and the the sun's upset and and he says Dad like you promised we would split everything evenly and he says Dad if you break the little promises you'll break the big ones I think that's such a beautiful idea not just as a parent but as a person right it shouldn't matter you said hey I'm gonna get up at six and then the alarm goes off at six and then you hit snooze and you hit snooze and you go I don't actually have to be anywhere today I'll just go back to sleep and wake up whenever I think or as a writer like writing is not fun having written is fun so you're always trying to come up with reasons that you don't have to do it today but if you build you're building the muscle either way you're either building the muscle that says I do what I say I keep the commitments that I make or you're building the muscle that says I make excuses I don't do what I say I can't be counted on right and so when we think about discipline it's really about like what promises are you going to keep and the tricky thing is you're keeping
promises to yourself that nobody even knows that you made right it's not it's not like hey you made this Commitment if I don't write this book by this time like uh you know I I have to do this embarrassing thing or you know that I'm all retired you know they're not even you're not really putting their ass on the line in that sense but you've said to yourself you're going to do this thing and building that muscle is really important I mean I do think one of the critical things about having a physical practice is you are building that muscle that muscle of like I told myself I'm gonna do this hard thing now that hard thing is approaching and am I going to come up with an excuse am I going to give myself a way out or I'm going to do it and then when you do it now you're in the middle of it and now you're tired and there's this voice inside of you that says well no one's watching you can stop anytime you want just turn around just go back or slow down um it'd be easier if you slow down and the muscle or the part of you that is able to override that is a really critical muscle Seneca says you know we treat the body rigorously so that it is not disobedient to the mind and I think about that I have a cold Plunge at my house and there's supposedly all these health benefits to doing the cold plunge you know it increases your metabolism or circulation you know there's all these studies and they're probably true I mean I I they they sound like they're true I'm not a scientist I have no idea but to me all of that is extra to me what the cold plunge is is that it's it's the sitting down in the thing when I know how cold it's going to be and I know I'm not going to get used to it or comfortable for at least a couple minutes right like the the cranking of the knob in the shower is the other version or the the shower's not warmed up and the forcing the step in before it's cold that's the hell that's the health benefit like that's the thing that you're getting out of it is the ability to do hard stuff that you don't want to do for uncertain benefits or benefits way down the line like if you can cultivate that
you're Golden That's where books come from that's where businesses come from that's where losing weight comes all of it comes from the ability to do that hard thing that you don't want when the when the rewards are not immediate or instantaneous and we've all got different size muscles in that regard sure right so some of us can't maybe because we spiraled down we didn't keep a commitment to ourselves which meant that our esteem yeah lower and then we didn't keep another commitment because of that and now our self-opinion or our self story of of ourselves and our ability to do things is so in the bin now yes that you know it seems like we can't keep any commitments to ourselves we're like so self-deceptive in so many ways those people that have really struggled and they've tried they've struggled they've tried they've struggled you know they bought your book because they thought [ __ ] it maybe there's like a sentence in here which is gonna gonna get me to the gym would you say to those people that find themselves completely absent of apparent discipline I think it's really important when we when we mess up that we don't identify with that right we identify with the person that we want to be that we know that we can be we identify with the thing happening and then we fall off right like in in um sobriety circles they talk about like falling off the wagon I like the idea that the wagon is going and you're either on the wagon or off the wagon right and the idea when you fall or you mess up or you make a mistake or you break that promise like it's still there like you can get back on it anytime right that's kind of how I think about it so instead of going oh I'm a piece of [ __ ] I'm spiraling I'm I'm worthless it's it's like no the thing is continued on you know I'm gonna run and catch up to it am I going to start to build those habits again or am I gonna you know write it off because it it's it's not there anymore do you know what I mean I kind of try to think about it that way it's like just because I've had a bad week where I was over scheduled or distracted or I was sick or whatever and I wasn't writing that doesn't mean All Is Lost like I just have to sit down tomorrow or
better I have to sit down now and I just have to to do a little bit right and that's what starts that process again um it's it's it's not this like All or Nothing kind of a thing and I think when you hear people talk that way they don't realize but they're actually it's actually very convenient to be all or nothing right like that way because it's giving you an out or an off instead of going yeah I did I didn't do what I was supposed to do the last seven days but that doesn't say anything about right now or that doesn't say anything about tomorrow what's your thoughts on on how beliefs are I I think so much especially recently about where our beliefs come from and how that impacts because our confidence is a belief in ourself and then you know my discipline seems somewhat connected to my beliefs and when we think about flat earthers and their beliefs and how you change their mind or how I change my mind about who I am you know I think a lot about I think if we can understand how to create belief change we can control much of our our own Hardware because my Hardware seems to be this kind of identity I I now believe about who Stephen Bartlett is yeah and I'm just kind of following the instruction manual of that of those that belief sir so how do I change that belief about who I am yeah it is funny like there's there's sort of the egotism of like thinking you're better than everyone and then there's also the kind of egotism that happens where you're you're like you're just obsessed with how garbage you are you know like you're just you're just thinking about yourself all the time uh when really you should just be thinking about what you either are or aren't doing you know um my friend Austin Cleon talks about he says um do the verb instead of trying to be the noun you know so like instead of going like am I a writer am I not a writer you know it's like am I writing you know just do the thing just do the thing um and uh you want what you do yeah yeah do the thing
makes a lot of sense and it's funny because there's a two-way relationship there I I don't do the things that I don't think I am yes yes if you I if if your sense of yourself is someone who's not worth anything lazy lazy out of shape ugly you know whatever the Stokes talk about how if you make beautiful choices you are beautiful and I love that it's like hey am I making good choices like am I like I don't think about um you know is the book coming together is it working is it brilliant I just go like um I try to try to radically scale down what I am asking of myself day to day so like it's more am I making a positive contribution today like I just try to make a positive contribution every day to what I'm what I'm working on so right now I'm editing my next book and you know a couple days ago I was really I wrote this new chapter I fixed all this stuff and um today I switched the title of a chapter from look for the good in everyone to find the good in everyone which is a semantic tiny change but also a transformative change as to what I'm actually arguing right and was yesterday's work or today's work a bigger impact on the the project I don't know but I know that I made positive Headway positive contributions on both days so I did my job on both days sometimes that's really visible and you're moving a lot of stuff around or you're creating a lot of stuff and then other days you're moving something a millimeter this way you made positive progress to today or yesterday by changing that title um the the next half of that sentence is like towards my goal or towards a destination or Direction my question there is how does how does one know the worthwhile direction to be making positive incremental progress in well the Stokes would say that our goals have to be rooted in what we control so the epictetuses if you only enter
contests in which winning is up to you you will always win right and so when I'm working on a book if my criteria is how many copies is it going to sell how well is it going to be received how happy is my publisher going to be with it you know um how fast is it coming out you know a bunch of these things um well then success is determined by people other than me right the market the New York Times bestseller lists my editor my agent random factors you know but if I'm measuring myself it's just getting closer to the book I set out to write is this the best that I can do is this meaningful and important to me you know all but I try to I try to root what I'm doing as much as possible in my own standards my own sense what's up to me and then the commercial success outside reception all of that it's nice but it's extra and and if it's extra then I can enjoy it um if it's if it's essential but I don't control it what I've really set myself up for is potential disappointment because the publisher could go out of business you know the market could shift you could get canceled you know who knows what could happen and so the more you're rooted in is this your best I think the happier you're going to be and then weirdly you you you end up actually doing better work because you're focusing all your energy like where it has impact I'm sure you've seen this where you know a clip that you didn't think would do well crushes of course and then this thing that you were like this is amazing it doesn't do well at all and so I think it's not that it's random it's just that you've got to be happy with it yeah and I used to write a lot of quotes that went on the internet and my best performing quote of all time was just it it violated all of my preconceptions of what like a good quote was because I just had an argument with my girlfriend this one day six years ago and I wrote a quote that
was like if we're in a relationship I want to be your second priority I want your first priority to be you and it went on it was another couple of sentences and this and that was that's the thing that went viral around the internet and it was it was unconstrained by like my own expectations of what a good quote was or the pattern or the rhythmic or the syllabics that go into a great quote it just came from a place of like I really had a [ __ ] day that day yeah I mean my girlfriend argued about me working too much so yeah no and yeah that's that stuff that stuff humbles you for sure when you're like maybe I don't know really what I'm doing but what I also want to take from that is like sometimes stuff that I know I don't think is good has done extremely well and then stuff that I am so so proud of has not done well and so am I gonna trade my definition of what's good or not good based on this fickle algorithm or Randomness or whatever no like you want to root your sense of whether you're doing a good job whether you're succeeding you want to root that as as much as possible internally as otherwise somebody else determines whether you're good or not and that's like that's not a that's not how you want to go through life all self-discipline begins with the body I think so uh it's very hard to be emotionally disciplined as you're stuffing your face or if you feel like garbage right like if I'm not taking care of myself if I'm not sleeping if I'm deferring maintenance right then something stressful comes along I'm just gonna magically step up and be able to handle that no like when I'm when I am fine-tuned and finely fueled and I'm taking care of myself I'm in a place where emotionally I'm much better off like every morning I try to go for a walk I take my kids and we just go outside and go for a walk and I try not to bring the phone I try not to get distracted is try to be present be outside I can tell in their behavior the days when that didn't happen
and I'm sure they can tell in my demeanor the days that that didn't happen right and so taking care of yourself physically is setting yourself up to thrive emotionally and temperamentally what did stoicism say about that about the importance of you know keeping yourself in good shape both cognitively physically yeah there's a Latin expression I won't butcher the Latin but it's basically like a strong mind and a strong body that you have to have both you know to just be very well read very informed or steeped in philosophy but to be physically weak and and this isn't this isn't uh meaning that you have to be able to lift super heavy weights but the the idea is is like are you active are you in charge um are you pushing yourself you know that carries over and vice versa should we will be pushing ourselves yeah for sure um physically yeah you know having something that gets you a win every day is a very underrated philosophical hack right like um I try to run or swim or bike every day I'm not training for a marathon I'm not trying to set any records I'm trying to make a promise to myself and keep that promise and it doesn't matter how badly the writing goes it doesn't matter what news I just got from my agent you know it doesn't matter how my business is doing it doesn't matter what the stock market's doing it doesn't matter what mean thing somebody just said about me online um it doesn't matter if my wife and I are getting along you know it doesn't matter if the kids are like if I have something that every day if I do it I'm proud of myself for doing it I got endorphins from doing it I got healthier from doing it you know I I got some time away from the screen or work or sitting in a chair from it like that's hugely important and it's so easy and it's something that's up to you you know um I've never like gone for a run and then like not made it back you know um there's there's lots of days where I
don't want to do it but I'm always glad that I did it almost all great leaders great athletes great philosophers have been tough yeah what you mean by tough I mean they've gone through something uh Churchill talked about how he says every every profit every sort of great leader a great person you know he said they're they're of society but then they're sent into the Wilderness right there's some period where their work is unpopular where their ideas aren't accepted where they're struggling to make ends meet or there's a controversy or whatever you know Churchill spends like 33 to 39 basically out of public life sort of persona non grata and he says that it's in this Wilderness he says where psychic Dynamite is made and his point is that it's it's in that struggling in not having everyone listen to you not getting what you want not having everything at the push of a button that forces you to really refine what you think forces you to grow and change and adapt you know Steve Jobs's time in the wilderness is when he gets fired from Apple and he has to go and he starts these other companies and he has to look in the mirror and go how did I get fired from the company that I started you know and and so we all have to have that period where we are wrestling with our demons or a demon and it's in conquering that changing from that that we bring back to whatever we're doing I think a greater sense of purpose and Clarity and then hopefully you know better skills and those moments make us confront our egos yes yeah there's an ego death in losing being rejected realizing you're not what you thought you were or it's not going the way that you thought it was going to go and you know ideally you want to learn that earlier and cheaper you don't want to get to the very top and have it all come crashing down and have to start over right there were probably many times a long Steve Jobs's Journey where maybe it was a tough meeting or an investor you know laid out all the
issues to his face but there was an article there were many moments where he could have learned that lesson in a way that was less calamitous than getting fired getting thrown out um sometimes that's what people need you know sometimes sometimes you got to blow your life up but it's better that that it's better that you listen I've said this before but it's like you know life is always sort of whispering feedback to you and if you don't listen to it at some point it has to hold you down and scream it in your face and uh that's avoidable how did you tune into that voice whispering you know it's it's uh for the Stokes it was like this kind of nightly or daily conversation with the self this is the art of journaling this is what Marcus realist is doing in meditations he's having a conversation with himself the most powerful man in the world no one could tell him what to do key in the pages of what's become meditations is going why are you like this why are you doing this you know better than this remember what so-and-so said Remember the examples of all these people that you love that have inspired you that you're trying to be like and try to get back on the path you're trying to Define what that path is and I think a process of really holding yourself accountable somehow whether it's a a journal maybe it's quarterly meetings with a coach or an advisor or a board of directors um if it's long walks or you think about these things there's lots of ways to do it but I think it's it's the ability to reflect and evaluate and adjust based on this information that's what that voice is right the information is there maybe deep down we know it but we kind of be uncomfortable it'd be painful maybe it wouldn't work but you got to be you got to be doing that work and again the sort of maintenance is going to be cheaper and easier than than the total rebuild this third point I believe it was of wisdom I've been asking myself a lot recently I sit and have conversations with some incredibly smart people yourself included and I I gain so much from it
sure and I think to myself what I should really be doing is writing more um what has been the value of writing on your life the unobvious stuff the unobvious upsides that you've experienced from writing nothing clarifies what you think quite like practice or the exercise of writing something down at Amazon if you like if you want to launch a new project or you're suggesting a change if you want to call a meeting you have to you have to write it out you have to create a written agenda in some cases you have to write a press release for that thing you're proposing you have to write like a written pitch for the whole thing and it's not so much for the communicating it to the other people but it's also about the forcing you to go through the process of figuring out what you think and why and the problems with it the contradictions of it like for being forced to write it down is just so different than it just bouncing around in your head or riffing on it there's just something very very powerful about writing and you know anyone that sat down to write a book I think you think well I know this better than anyone I'm really excited about it then you sit down and and that kind of enthusiasm or interest that can get you like the first like 10 pages and then you just go like you just spent and then you go well what comes next and how and how do they build on each other like you have to have a plan you know you have to have a system of structure you have to have solved the whole thing before you can write it you can't just figure it out on the Fly Right the stream of Consciousness stuff like it doesn't work and so writing is just really really powerful I'm a huge believer in all these other mediums and I make content in all these other mediums but I write the ideas first and it comes from the books the books is the synthesis of all of it and then if I'm doing a tick tock or Instagram or a an article it's all broken out from the process of having spent many many many hours sitting and thinking about and trying to come up with
the best way of expressing this very complicated idea and you know the process now I've I've been doing the daily Stoke so I wrote the book in 2015 so it's one page a day so I wrote 366 in one sitting and then the day I finished the book I said I'm just gonna keep going I'm just gonna do One A Day that we'll put out in the email on the podcast and so I've been doing that every day for eight years and uh that's where my understanding of Stills like obviously I knew about stoicism I'd written books about it before I'd read about it a lot but the process of having to produce and polish and edit and work on and read and you know record this one thing every day one thing every day has been transformative for me as a person the fact that you know millions of people have read them now and listened to them and watched them all over the world that's just like like even if it was never published that process would have transformed my life so in a world where you know you can easily in two seconds create high-res immediately shareable video like the ease of that is almost the Trap right writing is is hard and always will be hard and maybe that's why it's good in the 800 days there you've got a lot of data back on the types of things that resonate with people the subject matter that seems to speak to their most popular sufferings concerns anxieties sure what have you what have you learned about the things people are struggling with the most and the answers they seek the most that's a good question I I don't think about that so much I I try to just follow where it's taking me and and I just try to I'm just always trying to make stuff but I I it is interesting to think that people have had the same problems for 2000 years you know like on its face Marcus realizes meditations should be inaccessible impractical incomprehensible like you have the most powerful man on Earth emperor of Rome literally worshiped as a God you know head of the most powerful Army steeped in philosophy and rhetoric and all these ancient ideas
writing probably on the front lines of the battlefield like with the Roman army in his tent you know in Greek he was writing in Greek to himself never intending it to be published probably be mortified that it ever was published and he's writing it for himself like he's writing notes that are so specific that a lot of them we don't even know what they mean he's like remember that toll operator you know in insert you know province of the Roman Empire or remember that thing that so and so said to you like a lot of them are kind of notes like that so we know it wasn't for you and I at all this is like the literally the most specific book you could imagine and somehow it is timeless and Universal because as different and strange and surreal as his life and experiences it's fundamentally not that different than yours and mine books say about and what does stoicism say about how we confront unexpected crises in our lives that we are clearly not responsible for you know a cancer diagnosis skip firing get we get fired from work we something else bad happens that we were not responsible for to me the essence of stoicism is the idea that we don't control what has happened but we control how we respond to what happens and so you know Marcus's idea to have tattooed on my arm the obstacles the way you know he says the impediment to action advances action what stands in the way it becomes the way he's saying it say that again the impediment to action advances action the impediment to action advances action it stands in the way becomes the way he's saying that you know basically it's like nothing can actually stop us from what we're trying to do because we can accommodate and adjust and adapt reasons we can convert obstacles to our own purposes basically what he's saying is that stuff happens stuff we dread having happened that we did everything in our power to prevent from happening that's not our fault it's totally screwed up it's painful all of that but it does happen right and he says he's basically saying that
now that it's happened what opportunity does it present you and it doesn't mean oh hey you know your mother died that's great for your business that's not what he's saying like he's not saying oh this is wonderful but he's saying that this tragic terrible frustrating painful thing happened there are opportunities in that for you to step up to grow to be there for other people to illustrate or demonstrate the stoic virtues in moments of Crisis and like business I always think there's you have a couple of types of people say this room is on fire person a paralyzed with fear saying nothing yeah person be screaming sure also unhelpful we're gonna die person C knows the rumors on Fire doesn't need to say the room is on fire totally focused on getting out of the room yes and it's like it's a different way to handle crisis some people just default to practical well maybe there's another person there to extend this analogy who helps those other people yeah right right like the idea the idea is the thing is happening what is it going to draw out of you who are you going to be in response to that thing happening that's what the obstacle is the way it means it's not that it's great that the room is on fire it's that the room being on fire presents you a set of choices how do I become the person who is going to survive the fire because I'm focused not on the fact that the room is on fire I mean I'm aware of that I'm not denying the reality of the burning room but I'm using my energy on what I can control which is getting myself and these other people out of the room how can is it a practice is it like going to the gym some people just seem to have it you know childhood trauma seems to play into that as well because some people just have a pessimistic attitude to things and they worry and panic but that is kind of the practice right like what they have been through they have been in rooms that were on fire before different kinds of fire but this isn't a new situation to them right and that is one of the things also that we can say to ourselves when we're going through [ __ ] right whether it's this pandemic or it's this downturn in your business or it's this you know employee who stole from you or whatever you go
this is practice this is reps right like I am going to emerge out of the other side of this a person who has been through things like this and if you haven't before if this is the first time yeah maybe you won't handle it great but you will you can decide to be the person who has learned from that process I guess the danger is I go through it once and it's so horrific that I avoid all circumstances or environments where I might ever go through such a thing again yes so you have emerged weaker and more fragile for what's for what you've gone through which is probably not the way to do it you know um I've said this to people it's like hey we just lived through this massive historical event together we're here like we made it you know it's not to say anything about the people who didn't make it what I mean is like we got through it if you had asked that person in March 2020 if they could get through three years of a pandemic millions of people died where everything was shut down where there was political unrest and supply chain and logistic Logistics crises and everyone had to work from home and you know down the list of all that stuff even just half of it they would have said like so I lost everything right like you know like it destroyed me right I can't I don't have what it takes to get through that but you did because you didn't get through all of it at once it was one thing after another and you adjusted and you adapted and you got stronger as you went and you just realize as you go through things exactly what Seneca says like the person who hasn't been tested doesn't know but when you have been tested when you have gone through things you can take from that a sense of your capacities your capabilities which are almost always greater than you think they are and so it's just a way to go through life you know you don't want it to be that way you would prefer that it didn't happen that way that the things went the way they were supposed to go but they didn't and now they are the way that they are and now I have to call this person into my office and let them go you know now I have to
suddenly raise X millions of dollars to keep the business going if we're going to have any hope of surviving and I've got 30 days to do it right like the situation is the situation and what is it going to teach me how am I going to grow from how am I going to be better for it I was watching a video you made about um swistoic questions that are really important to ask ourselves I guess to keep us on track to some degree um what kind of questions do you find yourself frequently asking yourself to help keep yourself on track yeah I mean the big one that I asked myself the most as a parent is I just go does this matter like why why does this thing matter like is this thing that I'm about to argue with them or force them to do or feel insecure about does it actually matter right and the answer is almost always no it doesn't matter it's made up [Music] five more minutes is fine right in the big scheme of things I won't care about this and so I try to ask myself questions that give me perspective that take me out of whatever my immediate impulse is or insecurity is or worry is or argument is and I try to get perspective and I think that's what great questions do is they give you prospective different way of seeing things that you can then hopefully act on what did the stock say about like relationships and romantic relationships and love I mean what they say about them to me is secondary to the fact that they were also in them right like you know it's one thing to be a philosopher and then another to get married to a person who you now live with um who does things that drive you crazy and you do things that drive them crazy and you have resentments and you have insecurities and you have compromises that you have to make right um I remember my wife said to me one time this is a great question or a great way of thinking about it I said I was like it's you're I said she was frustrating me
and she's kicked back a very stoic idea she said um uh a person she said I can't frustrate you she was basically saying like we're responsible for our own emotions like she's doing what she's doing and I am feeling the frustration I can't make that her fault right and I think about that often right like uh she weaponized terrorism against you yes all the time her joke is um one of us is a stoic and the other writes about stoicism she's much more naturally these things than I am I would say but you know it's the idea that how you make it work in not in theory not in your books is uh it's the whole the whole business you know like I think every person who's ever been married or in a relationship you know you get yourself in these situations where you've decided that being right is more important than being happy or than getting along or sounds like Twitter moving on yeah right yeah you're just like what are you doing you know you're putting this thing over the relationship um Twitter is its own set of philosophical issues I just I you just watch people voluntarily seek out conflict and things to be upset about like if they didn't see the tweet it wouldn't bother them yeah but they they picked it up they're supposed to be having dinner with someone they care about they're supposed to be working supposed to be playing with their kids but instead they took up the phone and they scrolled through and the phone which knows the things that outrage you or the ones that get the most engagement magically serves up the outrage and then you are outraged and you cannot go back to what you were doing until you let this person know this person you've never met they are wrong and you are right you know and that is the opposite of philosophy happiness the good life um somehow I said he deleted it from his phone for this very reason last year he doesn't tweet anymore it's not involved in Twitter because he said when I look at the relationship I had with this device it was just causing me unhappiness he says every bad thing
every professional crisis I've had started with Twitter and have you ever once gone on it or any of the apps whether you spent five seconds or 50 minutes and thought that was a great use of my time I'm really glad I did that you know you always feel a little guilty after you go oh that went back faster than I thought um and again I'm not saying that there's not a place for these things that they don't do some good I mean maybe someone is watching a clip of this thing literally right in this instance and that's better than you know us trying to sit here and Pander to one side or incite the other there's definitely people some people do it better than other people or worse than other people but for the most part how do you create distance and boundaries that separate you from these things so yeah I don't have any of them on my phone either and I don't know the password to the Daily stoic or my personal Twitter account so if there's something I need to say I can talk to someone who works for me and make sure that gets out and then maybe I can ask you know hey how did it go but for the most part um I have enough inputs you know what I mean I have enough inputs I don't need more I don't need more random people uh this is this is the most important space that you have you know and how protective of it are you and cultivating a Stillness or a space a distance from that to me is like the most important thing you've read so much you write so much you have the the wisdom of a of someone who is who has lived many many lives that's what reading is by the way you know what I mean reading is is maybe the only way that you can live multiple lives like you think about the millions of people who have done crazy things groundbreaking things terrible things and you think of all that wisdom it's
all there in books and you know it's ten dollars sometimes it's a dollar isn't it funny how similar the wisdom is though yeah I think the more you read that you you come up with some sort of themes it boils down eastern and western philosophy kind of like a horseshoe you know they come come together towards the the ends but what are those themes what are the themes of living a good life that I must know first would be let's say if you focus on what's in your control I think it's up to you okay what does that mean in practice in in day-to-day life so someone cuts me off in traffic yeah uh somebody you don't somebody doesn't like something that you did uh the weather you know how much of your energy are you spending emoting about complaining about worrying about things that are not up to you and what do the is there any particular examples from stoicism where well epic fetus is like that's our first job in life separate things into two categories is this up to me or is this not up to me and it's a resource allocation issue right like if you are focused in your energy even half of it on stuff that's not up to you that's half your energy that's not being focused on the stuff you can make a difference on it's like that'd be like putting 50 of the the power of your car on the wheels that aren't touching the ground you know like you want to put it where it's going to get traction that's the a key thing in life is this up to you or not number two uh there's something magical about water and there's something magical about long walks this is where find a lot of Peace find a lot of inspiration find a lot of calmness and Stillness like I'm not saying that taking a walk will solve all of your problems I'm just saying that there's very few problems that are made worse by taking a walk same goes for jumping in the swimming pool or the ocean yeah what is it about those two things that you believe I mean look I think we evolved traveling very long distances I mean some of the oldest evidence of human beings in America are a set of footprints of a mother carrying and setting down carrying and setting down a child 20 000 years ago in white
sand what is now White Sands New Mexico like that's just what we've been doing for as long as there are food people and there's something about the rhythm of it the movement of it that slows us down forces us to think makes us very present it's just magic and I think there's a reason that every religious tradition or zen garden has a water fountain or something you know there's just something about sound of water it's so true all of my best ideas either come usually in the gym or in the shower yeah I mean I don't do a lot of walking because I got it but in the gym in the shower I seem to get my Epiphany moments yes taking a break from what you're doing to go do one of those things often unlocks a lot of stuff okay and you have that as a ritual every day every day every single day yeah yeah try to take a walk every day what else are sort of rituals in your life the daily rituals so I would add as a third one as a ritual I'd be I'd say like do something hard every day like do something physically difficult every day the art of challenging oneself and pushing those limits and boundaries that is a a central practice and skill that will help you whatever life has in store for you and is that is that the third one on this list yeah the third okay I love that one so do something difficult every day and that ranges from as small as not eating the cheeseburger to as big as running a marathon yeah I mean not eating a cheeseburger that's not I wouldn't put that I I wouldn't go hey like I really challenged myself today I didn't eat garbage I would say it's like here's the positive thing that I did right like I lifted I lifted heavy rocks you know I went for I did some sprinting I went for a bike ride you know I uh I went for a run I took a spin class you know whatever it is the walk doesn't count the walk is for the mental health yeah you got to do something for the physical health okay so four I think we have to put something here about like we are made for each other right the the the idea of uh meaning comes from servicing or contributing to the
common good Marcus realist talks about the common good maybe 40 50 times in meditations um you know he says like we're put here for other people um our job is to is to help others to you know leave this place better than you've like leave this place better than you found it to me that's the meaning of life right there so what is the positive contribution what is the Legacy you're leaving not how much money did you make you know what records did you break but what is the What is the contribution you are making to the collective that's meaning and purpose and quite frankly your obligation as a human being service and then the fifth one the fifth one is is why don't you just pause there and I forgot to ask you for an example and the third one from stoicism of doing something hard yeah like a I mean the Greeks trained in wrestling the gymnasia was the central part of the Roman life you know you'd go and you you'd train you know um what were they aiming at when they were training what were the means a strong mind and a strong body like to not be flabby and lazy and uh not to fight each other or anything but no but I mean there's something about Combat Sports you know that I think is is very Primal and probably good for you um you know just something about the challenge of of of pushing oneself not living this sort of sedentary lifestyle I think that's you know whether you're talking about Zen Buddhists practicing martial arts or are you talking about the Romans you know uh uh practicing wrestling I think the philosophical tradition is it's it's wrong to think of philosophers as soft I always wonder if there's something innate in human beings that we we're designed to need struggle like we're designed to because if you think about we're in a big building here and with
all these all this stuff that humans came up with and the cameras that they they our ancestors just struggled forward to create all this stuff so is it conceivable that they left something in me that says you two shall struggle forward yeah you're you are an error to people who crossed oceans fought in Wars braved the elements you know lived through poverty and depressions [Music] sacrificed struggled you know they did all that and you have that in you you know you have that in you we all do and here we are ordering candies Wi-Fi robot um and and going ah the air conditioning isn't at the exact temperature and number five number five across all religious and philosophical traditions there is some version of the practice of Memento Mori remember you are mortal that life is short talk about top of the list of things that you don't control right uh is death and the acceptance and the submission to that fact the awareness the urgency the perspective that that gives you is one of the most essential philosophical practices there is like why do we procrastinate why do we not prioritize our health why do we not do the stuff that we know we should do it's because we think we have forever you know we think we're Invincible um and it's only you know in light of a pandemic a call from the doctor you know a loved one suddenly going that we get these brief moments of clarity it goes oh wait [ __ ] no you can go at any moment [Music] um Mark's realist is you could leave life right now let that determine what you do and say and think now if you sang that in a time where he buried six children six children that's how deadly and unforgiving the ancient world was and he was even then having to remind himself hey don't procrastinate don't think you have forever you know don't take life for granted and here you know when the
average lifespan is so much longer like inconceivably long compared to the ancients where you know you might never see someone die in your whole life until you are in a hospital bed you know we have we live in even more of a bubble you know we are even more sheltered we are even more detached from the reality of uh of our mortality as they say death is the only prophecy that never fails like people think about like well what would I do if I found out that I had cancer like if you got a terminal diagnosis from a doctorate but what changes would I make but the reality is you do have a terminal diagnosis like the second you were born the doctor knew with a hundred percent certainty that you would die you just didn't know when you know it could be eight years from now could be eight decades from now we don't know but to live in ignorance or in rejection of that fact is to set yourself up I think more often than not to waste your life and so some practice of hey time is ticking by now in this very moment how am I spending it there's a sound timer oh yeah yeah that's beautiful it sounds to remind me of that very very fate of all these things Ryan what is the what is the stoic wisdom that you continually struggle with the most um you know I think people think that stoicism is about the suppression of emotion that's what the word stoic means to people right emotionless robotic superhuman Etc I don't think that's it at all um I don't think that's possible if you're stuffing the emotions down if you're pretending they don't exist they do exist and they will eventually reveal themselves you've just deferred it maybe with some interest attached right so for me like when I'm feeling something when I'm having big feelings as we say to my kids you're having big feelings well why are you having those feelings what is the cause of those feelings what does your body feel like and the the
practice of going I'm feeling this I'm feeling this because I'm feeling as a result of that an inclination to do and then go but is that a good idea you know is that what I want to do like I've never lost my temper and then afterwards been like I'm so glad I did that you know I'm I always regret it always right I've never forced my kids to do something out of frustration and then been like yeah that was definitely the right call you know afterwards I'm like we had so much more time than I was under the impression we did you know what I mean it's like like getting this big fight to leave the house and then we get there and then we're like waiting in the car five minutes to go in you know or whatever right like uh or you're so stressed about missing the flight and then you you get there or you don't get there and neither one of those things it's like a matter of life and death right so I think for me seeing stoicism as the practice of understanding the emotion processing the emotion and then not being a slave to that emotion is the practice of stoicism that I think I struggle with but I think when you read the private thoughts of the stoics you see that they were also struggling with you know um people are frustrating things are annoying you know things go sideways but then how you deal with that that's what that's what matters and that's the control you have yeah and it is a practice isn't it because we all get frustrated with things I get frustrated with so many things yeah because you have high standards you have expectations wanting things to be a certain way needing them to be a certain way that's like the root of so much of the tension or problems that we we have and the question I ask is why why do I need them to be a certain way yeah you don't you go I need everything to be a certain way or I won't be able to do what I do and then you're like wait how fragile am I that I can't I can't adjust I can't adapt you know
what I mean like you it's because you can want it or request it or you think you should have it that's what sets you up but epic Jesus thing is he says like I don't want things to be a certain way want them to be the way that they are that is the path to peace I think about it's like hey like if I wake up and I go I need the weather to be a certain way today well then there's a pretty big chance that I'm not gonna be happy I was talking to my friend his name Shaka Smarties the head basketball coach at Marquette he lived in Texas he was the head coach at Texas and um he uh he moved to Marquette where it's colder and I said what's it what's the weather shift like I said something like you know are you are you more of a hot weather guy or a cold weather guy you know and um he goes I'm a dress for the weather guy and I was like that is stoicism right there dress for the weather you know like I don't care what it is I'm good I'm good either way yeah I'll figure it out I love that and the conflict I have is the stoics must have understood the importance of detail and small things sure so yes you know that's why yeah but at the same time they also understand how that can quite easily rob you of that Obsession to detail yeah or like routine is important right this is the order I like to do things this is when I'm at my best but what if that routine becomes almost a religion which becomes almost a kind of fragility you know that's the problem [ __ ] [ __ ] what am I gonna do I need I need my special socks you know or whatever um I can't no I need 10 minutes before and you're like okay you know you're not defusing a nuclear bomb here like it's gonna be fine two things can be true at the same time yeah it's better well the stoic say um there's there's such a thing as preferred indifference so the basically the stocks are like if it's in your control great it's not under control it's not worth thinking about
but they said they're still some things it's better to have than not have right like like it's better to be rich than poor it's better for it to be you know nice weather not nice weather right and so the idea is you're going to be fine regardless right so if you can you can go I am good I'm a dress for the weather guy I can thrive in any and all situations right that's the first thing that has to be true and then the second thing is to be true which can be true is but if you ask me what I want here this here's the circumstances or situation that if it's in my power that's what I'm going to choose I don't need it I can do great in any in all situations but if you ask me do I want it to be cold in here or warm in here I'm going to tell you the temperature that I like because I know that if it gets too hot and I start to feel warm and then I get distracted you know like you can you can know what it's nice to have but not need it of all the of all the things that you know you've read about in um stoic philosophy and wisdom fewer lying on your deathbed and you had the entirety of the world as the audience oh and you could just say one thing that you believed would be as of most benefit to that audience to relieve them of their suffering the most to you know to leave them with one last statement from Ryan holiday drawn from his readings of stoic wisdom and philosophy oh what might be the Insight the last daily stoic what would I say it's a short last breath we know Marcus aurelius's sort of Last Words his last words in in meditations are about sort of hey man this is the play it only got three acts curtains coming down did you do a good job you started talking to himself like that it's pretty beautiful and then in real life he's probably dying of the plague uh he his friends are all around him and they're weeping and crying
and he goes what are you crying about like don't think about me so think about your you think about your life go try to you know do what you can with the time that you have left and maybe I'd say something like that like hey the whole the one the one benefit of people dying is the one way that they can go on living after they die one way they can improve us and help us after they're gone is is the reminder of the fact that they're not here which will be true for you at some point and that's one of the things that the loss of people that we love can do for us it's like hey none of us get forever the song ends at some point and so what did you um what did you do with the time that you've got and the fact that you get tomorrow and I don't is a gift that you should not take for granted into your kids oh I think I would just I think I'd just say you know what I try to just say all the time which is like I love you I'm proud of you and you're you're good you know what I mean I think I think it's it's really easy especially in today's world for everything to feel like conditional you know that you gotta earn it and there are things you have to earn in life you know but A Parent's Love A sense of worth and sort of dignity uh value that's that's that's in an innately intrinsically uh given thing at Birth right and so I don't know I meant I might just take one one extra shot at that if this um if you want to be successful at that point when you're laying there on your deathbed yeah if you were answered to that question that they uh positive markets Marcus's play my godson's called Marcus actually because of Marcus
um but if you had lived a successful life at that point what would that mean for you yeah um I mean I feel I feel lucky in that I don't wake up and think there's all this stuff that I have to do do you know what I mean like I I'm not saying like uh I've done everything that I want to do but I'm saying like with the time that I have had I have I have I feel like I've checked most of the boxes of you know reaching the potential that I have paying back debts or gifts that I was given um you know mastered things uh made a positive contributions like I I I'm I feel I'm good do you know what I mean and so I wake up with this sense of living in the bonus that it's all extra which is nice because I think early on in my life I felt a lot of pressure and I was demanded or asked a lot of myself and the ability to be like I did it um and now every extra minute or day that I get is is extra that's like that's where you want to get I think ladies and gentlemen I'm interrupting this broadcast with a very special announcement two years ago I started writing a book based on everything I've learned from doing this podcast and meeting all of the incredible people that have had the privilege of meeting but also from my career in business from running my marketing businesses my software business my investment fund and everything else that I've been doing in business and life and from this I've created a brand new book called The Diary of a CEO the 33 laws for business and life if you want to build something great all become great yourself like the guests that I've sat here and interviewed I ask you please please please read these 33 laws the book I always should have written if you like this podcast this book is for you and it is available now in the description of this podcast below and every single day
until it's out later this month one person that pre-orders it that takes a picture of their pre-order uploads it to their story on Instagram or social media and tags me will win a Gold version of this book so find by me and there's only 33 copies of those available so pre-order it now tag me on social media when you do and 33 of you are going to win a very very special book a quick word on huel as you know they're a sponsor of this podcast and I'm an investor in the company one of the things I've never really explained is how I came to have a relationship with huel one day in the office many years ago a guy walked past called Michael and he was wearing a heeled t-shirt and I was really compelled by the logo I just thought from a design aesthetic point of view it was really interesting and I asked him what that word meant and why he was wearing that T-shirt and he said it's this brand called heal and they make food that is nutritionally complete and very very convenient and has the planet in mind and he the next day dropped off a little bottle of fuel on my desk and from that day onwards I completely got it because I'm someone that cares tremendously about having a nutritionally complete diet but sometimes because of the way my life is that falls by the wayside so if there was a really convenient reliable trustworthy way for me to be nutritionally complete in an affordable way I was all ears especially if it's a way that is conscious of the planet give it a chance give it a shot let me you know what you think we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're leaving it for and the question that's been left for you is what would you do all day if you didn't have to work and I'm actually going to give you contacts first time I've done this I'm gonna give you some context on this I'd never tell anybody who's written the question but this was a long conversation with someone at the helm of artificial intelligence and at the very end of our conversation we reached this point where he believes that in the future in the very near future because of artificial intelligence we're not going to have
jobs yeah and I've been wrestling with this idea so what do we do Universal basic income what do people do with their time do people need meaning in their lives and where are we going to find meaning if it's not in struggle so in a world of you know what artificial intelligence is running everything what would Ryan holiday choose to do at this time I don't know how how I think it's a it's it's uh I like that I don't think I would make that many radical changes in my life like I wake up early I go outside and spend time with my kids I take them to school and I sit down and I write and I write for me you know I write what I am interested in what makes me better what challenges me what I think is philosophically interesting and provocative and then that goes to someone else who takes it out and puts it into the world right um and I you know I try to do something hard I challenge myself physically then I go home I spend time with my family I putz around on my Ranch that I live on you know do some manual labor sometimes um and then you know I tag my kids and I go to bed what do you think of chat GPT in these large language models and how they're going to impact writers and knowledge and I think because I could go in there right now and say give me a novel in the style of Ryan holiday I mean I I did I did an email I I asked chat gbt I said write a daily stoic email on the subject of change and I said write me a daily Stoke email on the subject of replaceability and uh it did okay you know it wasn't it wasn't as good as what I could do maybe in 10 years or a year it'll be better but I still had to edit it I still had to refine it and then also I I had the idea to have it do that you know the the upside down urinal is Art because someone decided to put a urinal upside down and said that is Art and so you know the intentionality is still the
main thing and then the refining and the polishing and the changing is what makes it's what the role of the human is and so I I haven't seen a ton of change in my life and that I haven't been here for 80 years but you know I remember when Google books came out and a bunch of authors said it's not the same as going to a library and looking in the book physically you shouldn't just be able to search books and find what you want so they continue to do it the way they used to do it and US younger people took advantage of this thing that saved us time and let us do more right and I don't know maybe it will replace all of us as everyone for all time has you know every job has been replaced in some form or another or maybe it just becomes a tool in the toolkit and I think the job of uh of each of us is to figure out how to use it and not be used by it you know well let's hope so yes I'm sorry yeah I suspect you'll be right at least in the the short and mid term anyway actually knows off into the future what the world looks like probably got more pressing issues but uh but Ryan thank you for your time thank you for having me this is very cool this book actually sits on my bedside because my girlfriend has stolen it from oh amazing she's reading it and she's also reading your um daily it's the daily stoic book she's she'll be on a on a silent Retreat as I as we record this and she'll have it with her oh that's amazing she reads one page every day I love it um she's Portuguese so it's helping her with her English as well so um but your books have stretched all across the world and reached into so many people's lives in such an incredible way it's really an important important thing that you do I know you know this you must know this because you must get these messages and people must tell you in the tens of hundreds of thousands but I've seen firsthand how your work has and your ability to reach back into history and pull out wisdom that's so relevant and important to people's daily lives has had a profound impact that's a really special thing Ryan it's a really special thing that's
very cool and I know you do it I want to ask you the question why you do it you know you pointed at the selfish reason yeah but the consequence of that is so selfless um and I thank you on behalf of all of those incredible people and it's an honor to meet you as well because these books have been these are ornaments in my household and these are very important parts of of my development so thank you Ryan thank you appreciate it as you know Zoe our sponsor of this podcast and I'm a big investor in the company you guys know I'm really sitting still because that's just the nature of my life so whether I'm in a business meeting with my investments or I'm recording this podcast I'm always running from A to B but the one promise that I made to myself is to fuel my body sufficiently and Zoe has been really the key part of me succeeding in that mission for those of you that don't know I've been a Zoe member for about a few months now ever since I had Zoe's scientific co-founder Professor Tim Spector on this podcast Zoe helps me to understand how to make better food choices for my long-term health and it's all personalized to me eating the right food is essential for me to keep me going because some of my meetings are often later in the day and so I need to ensure that I keep my energy levels up and Zoe allows me to understand which foods work for me and which foods don't eating the Zoe way I don't get that dreaded afternoon crash and I feel great so to get started with Zoe go to zoe.com Steven and use my exclusive code ceo10 for 10 off so many of you have been asking me for discount code here it is ceo10 go to zoe.com Steven and use my exclusive code ceo10 for 10 off and if you already use Zoe send me a DM and let me know how you're getting on foreign [Music] [Music]