Video URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkAZRNg-VWY
I think it's actually still kind of hard for me to talk about but I am down to go there your Square chin makes me feel safe [Music] what's our mission Penny the conversation starts on a horn field and Rural Illinois being a queer feminine child is hard there was sexual abuse and there was bullying but all that trauma came back into the most self-destructive era I've had my face and a plate of coke then I discovered zuck's work I got HIV I put myself in so many really dangerous situations someone pulled a gun on you take me into that movement the startup hairdresser and now your name is on the Marquee of Radio City your schedule's been crazy how are you feeling great fall and at the same time it really frustrated I just see so much transphobic garbage all over the place people really think that there's little kids going to school as a boy and coming home as a girl this is really serious and so this has been a really hard time and I think being a public figure who is constantly expected to be a ray of sunshine it can be challenging but why I've been able to get to where I am is like because I think I'm resilient I have been able to sit with a lot of Shame and like a lot of heartbreak and still be joyful can you talk about your trauma without becoming your trauma do I get to ask the question of the next person yes and also they'll be turned into cards that people will play with their families and stuff so it can't be what's the [ __ ] thing you've ever done Jonathan Van ness's Story is an impossible Story coming from a place of sexual abuse sex work depression and despair to becoming the leader in his industry The Story You're about to hear is not only hilarious because that is what Jonathan is but it's also the evidence that you might need that passion and resilience will take you to the place that you want to go to this conversation is going to make you laugh it's one of the more real conversations I've ever had with anyone on this podcast because Jonathan doesn't hold back his story is heart-wrenching it is unthinkable and it's incredibly important over the last couple of months there's been this huge rise in the conversation
around trans rights and there's been a huge rise in transphobia you've probably seen it today I'm going to ask him about that where has it come from what is the truth and if you're someone like me that feels quite uncomfortable about the narratives we're seeing in the world what can we do about it how can we help it's time to have that uncomfortable conversation [Music] one of them yes where do we need to begin this conversation to understand you the conversation starts on a corn field and Rural Illinois in the late 80s darling what happens next oh um well I went to school my I come from a broadcasting family and like a family of journalists I grew up my mom uh worked in the local newspaper and advertising and my dad worked in the TV station uh so that's kind of where it started I was born in 1987. I think that was like another really interesting time in queer history and what was to come for the next few years um being that it was like the height of the height of the AIDS crisis and I think understanding not understanding that but um being a very queer uh effeminate small child in that time um there was so much like anti-queer vitriol then um which I didn't like know that's what it was called but I felt it and it's so it's interesting being like this age now and having like this Renaissance not in the Beyonce way of like such anti-queer sentiment you're five years old when your parents separate um what's that like for you I actually just had a joke about this in my new um set my first reaction was like can I have the ring like my brothers are really devastated I just was like all about that diamond like I've always loved jewelry I was like oh my God that would look great with my geodes so I didn't really understand like any sort of like emotional implication from like my parents divorce um love my dad love my mom but I was like
I kind of I think I was like maybe too young to fully understand I do think that It ultimately set me on like um like my stepdad and I I my mom started dating him when I was like six and I write a lot about him in my first book over the top um his name was Steve and so ultimately he taught me so much about what it is to be a good person what it is to have integrity what it is to ask for help um he had been sober for 28 years when he died in 2012 and he was like and me and my dad are both really important to me but Steve and my dad like were a really good um you know role models in my life in a lot of ways and but it took me like from like six to like 16 to like like Steve uh but then I eventually like really you know loved Stephen appreciated him so much for all the things that he taught me oh thank you stay out for context the shoulder thing is uh do you want to explain Jonathan yes it's like this gorgeous like little like tube dress honey and what it can give you is this like turtleneck moment but that's giving me too much restriction it is pride so we need the shoulder out because it's really like this issiniaki moment that's like the shoulders meant to Peekaboo is that easy yeah that's beautiful pretty right yeah I want to screaming the microphone I just get so excited talking about dresses so he's just told us to what contingent on this interview was us letting him know whatever the the Izzy mizaki number just slides a little too high we've got to remind him to slide it down so if we say shoulder that's what we mean um how did you get on with your peers when you're that age did you feel like you fit fitted in per se no no um but I did have some really good friends and some people who I I think I know I knew really early that friendship was really important so I always had like some really close friends um but a lot of times I think there was like you know quite a bit of like widespread bullying but I think that that really hit a fever pitch like more like you know like sixth grade like post sixth grade like maybe pre that there was like little murmurings and like a little bit of weirdness but I think kids are like so young at that age that they're not
really like or at least in my case it wasn't like that horrific um bullying wise at the time it was more like post sixth grade I feel like but also it's like so funny I just noticed this like part of me that's like like being 36 and still talking about it like I feel like because I have processed so much of it and I've worked so hard on letting go of a lot of that and um so like for me it doesn't really hold a lot of like like Brittany Brown she talks about like you know can you talk about your trauma without becoming your trauma and I think in like I think it's actually still kind of hard for me to talk about like I have this like harder part that kind of comes up and it's like oh like I just don't like going there but I am down to go there your Square chin makes me feel safe but yeah you know what I'm saying well you you take me there you take me to where you want to go because I I am in my own experience only black kid in an all-white school I grew up in Devon in the southwest which is like the countryside so I remember the feelings of just const because it's a small town as well and you're different this constant feeling of almost a constant state of like my body was always in fight or flight almost just like subtly and I read I read hints of that in your story but please do tell me um what your experience was no that totally that absolutely resonates I think I also write a lot about like this idea that like um like a lot of like joy and like happiness can coexist with grief and like shame like these emotions don't necessarily like invalidate each other so even though I did have um a lot of hardships and there was abuse and there was bullying and there was a lot of othering like I think that's why I'm still so obsessed with figure skating and gymnastics like when figure skating and gymnastics was on the TV I was the happiest person of all time like none of the other things mattered so I think those kind of moments of like escapism like were these really healing moments why even now as an adult like
those types of things are so exciting for me and I'm just like so into it because it I think it like it strikes at like that core memory of like just being really into something else um which I'm glad I'm still into that even though I'm like more into my life now than I was and obviously like I did get out of there and I did like you know a lot of my dreams came true The escapism Well in that situation what were you escaping from feeling like really I mean it was like I said a really queer kid and a very like ciset world so my hometown is like my family was like quite well known in my hometown and I was really like unabashedly myself and so there was a lot of like feedback from that as I got older so that I think that was like a lot of and I also was you know abused I'm Survivor of sexual abuse so there was like like I would hear about like other kids and like you know whether it was like poverty or like see it on the news like kids or like even just like kids at school like you know there's like kids at school who like clearly are going through it and like do not have the access to the resources that you have um but meanwhile I was like definitely having people call me [ __ ] definitely being sexually abused um and I remember thinking like oh I'm glad I don't have it as bad as like you know so it's like it's interesting how like our perspective like is like just so funny like when you're a kid you just don't have anything to compare it to but looking back to it on it I'm like I think I'm my little inner child and like all the things that my nickname growing up was Jack like what he went through and I'm like oh my God honey that was like so intense you know like just growing up like there and like having yeah it's intense you've been really open about um the incident of sexual abuse that you've experienced and how that had a sort of a skating impact on the rest of your life is there a point where you where someone around you highlights the significance of that to you at that age no I think that the problem with unlike sexual abuse is so many and I you know I don't like blame anyone for this because it's just like what happens that there's such this like an um insistence on like
like not talking about it you know like like don't let anyone find out and I understand that because like you like it's like you just don't want people to find out like whether it's like bringing shame on the church or bringing shame on like why didn't anyone prevent this so it's like it I don't think it was like I think we just all wanted to like just get through it and I don't think any like there's so much shame and stigma tied up in sexual abuse that I think when it happens you're but at the same time like my mom was really wanted to deal with things like in a very head-on way and like really when it was like therapy like we gotta get like once she knew she was like [ __ ] like God like but then there was like other forces and like other people and you know our lives that were like I don't think and whether that was like church leaders or other people that were like I don't think that's really you know like what happens if you talk like does you really want your kid to be like you know so they're in essentially like small rural spaces and I think that's part of what makes me so angry when we think about um you know when people say you know the trans people are you know groomers or drag queens or like all this idea like queer people or groomers like there is so much sexual abuse in churches there's so much sexual abuse in rural communities in urban communities and all the communities and when you look at the statistics most often it is like a man that you know it is like a man in the family A man in the church a friend of the family it's someone that you know it's like not random queer people um and I just think part of why we have these like Fantastical ideas of like these threats to our kids is because of the thing that I was just speaking about that like we don't talk about what really happens because we want to keep it private and we want to keep things really inside and so when you're like um when you're drawing like it just it makes it and also it's like this like smoke and mirrors thing when you're saying that it's one thing it's like gaslighting really from this whole other thing which in this case is like the pervasive sexual abuse in churches in um you know in families and communities that is just
so you know not spoken about and we're over here talking about drag queens and trans people you said that your mother was very um proactive with going to therapy and things like that which is an incredible thing yeah so for the time so especially because even now that's quite seen as being quite a progressive thing to do but but back then when you're 16 years old for that to be one of the first sort of suggestions to take you to therapy seems to be honey I was in therapy when I was five I remember like my parents got divorced like I remember like being in therapy when I was so little that like I had to like look up at my mom like this like holding her hand you know what I'm saying like because then they got divorced we went to like family therapy so like therapy was always very normalized for me and my mom um it was just like one of the things I just am so grateful to her for that she like normalized therapy like thank God I don't think I'd be alive without if she hadn't done that what about if I'd ask that 16 year old version of you what are you gonna do when you're older I always knew I wanted to do hair right like but I think my family was like you need to go to college so I was like maybe I was like I'll be a lawyer or something but then I was like girl you can't be a lawyer you're gonna I love doing hair I think I knew I wanted to do hair yeah yeah I I think about my teenage years and I think I didn't know the impact I use the word formative at the start I didn't know how I'd been formed until I was an adult and I saw like patterns playing out what were the prints sort of that left on you from your earliest years that stayed with you as an adult I think my fur like I went I think one of my big first phases of like wanting to understand more about like uh like my trauma or like my story it was like Eckhart Tolle and a new Earth and the Power of Now and like 2008 or nine it was like when Oprah was talking about him and then I was like who's this that cartoli honey and then I read The Power of Now And A New Earth and I was like hmm you go I don't have an ego what's he talking about and I was like oh that's
like the story that we tell ourselves I was like so like my stories that I'm like this like gay kid from this little town and I was like abused and like this and that I love cheer and I loved it like really I'm like The Observer of that like I'm not really that I'm like this like that was like when I started to learn about like what meditation was and what Stillness was and um that really gave me a lot of healing and kind of like Clarity and then I uh that didn't last that long because I did eventually get addicted to math like not that long after that so but thank God I had that introduction to that sort of healing at that time because I was able to come back to it so that and then I think so then my stepdad got really sick the one I was talking about earlier um Steve he was diagnosed with cancer in like 2009 and I was really far away I was like living in La they were in Illinois and I was in a really um you know difficult working situation I was like in my first serious relationship and then all of those um all that trauma manifesting itself was came back in terms of like um my sexual compulsivity so I'm like in love for the first time and I just like was having such a hard time like in my first relationship like just cheating Non-Stop and being like Oh like which I talk a lot about in my first book um and so that was when I was like okay I really need help like I don't know like so I'd had that versatile introduction to Healing with like Eckhart you know solo 2122 then Steve gets sick he ultimately dies and then it's after that that I'm like really need help and that's like when I get into therapy that's when I um start to get into 12 step myself uh which I I think being a non-binary queen anything that's too much this or that it's like so sobriety was like oh I just like I want to be totally sober but I did get a lot of healing there um so I'm kind of a harm reduction Queen but so all through my 20s I think and I don't think that we ever get to a place as much as I wish that we would where you're just like ah dealt with my trauma it's like in a box and I never have to look at it again I never have to deal with it again and I think it's
interesting the ways that your circumstances change and then your trauma or your you know that baggage or your ego is like is Eckhart refers to it will like manifest itself in different ways but I hope that we get or I hope I get better at um like not identifying with the trauma or the ego like when it's like being a nightmare even though that's like also a constant struggle like ask my husband like where the [ __ ] is my eyeliner you went to um university right first semester you dropped out like I did why did you drop out I got really bad grades and then I got addicted to drugs and then I realized that I wanted to be a hairdresser so what was I gonna waste all that time and money for was University or college I think they call it in the US um the first time you got addicted to drugs was that the first time you started to seriously sort of experiment with drugs [Music] um does weed count then no yes yes then it was like it's not to we but that was the first time that I ever did like really intense drugs you're away from this the small town the issues of your your teen years at that point so what was um what was that context and environment like well my mom was so right she was like honey you're too young and I was like get [ __ ] I'm leaving and honey I was so too young like I just immediately just had my face and a plate of coke like the first time I saw cocaine I was like like the first time I was like saw like I was like that's ecstasy give me six um and the next thing I knew you know because like you like my parents got me like that like thing that you get at University like the little like campus like card for the food so they're like your food's paid for your dorms paid for like you really don't need very much money honey like so like my mom gave me like 300 a month because like everything else was paid for right like what else could you [ __ ] mean like I didn't have to work like because like they did everything right like so cool right like so but I was like well how am I supposed to get all messed up on drugs all the
time if I only have three hundred dollars like that math isn't working so right like it's like that's like two days you know if you're really going out with your friends um so then I just was like then I discovered like sex work and then I was like oh next thing I knew I was like pulling tricks to like um get drugs so that I could do more drugs and then after doing that for a few months I was like and I dropped out of college like through that um I was like um because my mama cut me off by then I was like Mommy um I'm so sorry I'm like literally selling my body like I feel scared like can you just put some money in the checking account like I'll drive the car home I'll be like I'll just come I'll I'll be back in three days can you just I'm scared and she was like Jesus yes this is my baby and so she did them poor Mom right um and so she did that cutely though like right before that I found this kitten in the hood of a car um who was my first cat bugged the first and honest to God I write about him too like he really gave me like the will to like not be a sex worker and because at first it was like for funsies for to just get drugs for partying right then once I got cut off it was like no like I don't want to go back home and like show that I [ __ ] up so I just need to like figure it out but like that was really not where I wanted to be it wasn't like I was like doing sex work from a place of empowerment I was doing it from like a place of like deep trauma like wanting validation trying to support a drug habit like it was not a good place for like an 18 year old to be I was like really it was really like I put myself in so many really dangerous situations someone pulled a gun on you right yeah it was really like a really really dangerous situations um and so yeah that was like I mean I look back at some of the things that happened and I honestly can't believe that I made it because it was really like so touch and go in a lot of situations like one little thing different and it could have like so many situations but that's true of anyone but
it was really you know traumatizing but so I find this little cat and I realize when I find this little cat I was like I want this I want to raise this little cat he was like this like little black cat in the hood of this car and um but that really was like so super healing for me and I think that started like I'm such a little like animal parent I have like five cats and three dogs now with my husband and that I really think it was just like such a huge like Turning Point like just like falling like just falling in love with like cats and dogs they're just like so healing finding a little cat in the boot of a car seems to be trivial but it's not is it because really what I heard there is in a moment where you were in a bit of a desperate situation that cat gave you a reason and a purpose yeah no it's a meaning yes and then it has continued to be like a huge source of like joy and like grounding like in my life that is like really so not trivial like really really was a huge Turning Point quick one before we get back to this episode just give me 30 seconds of your time two things I wanted to say the first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week means the world to all of us and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place secondly it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started and if you enjoy what we do here please join the 24 of people who watch this channel regularly and have hit the Subscribe button means more than I can say and if you hit that subscribe button here's a promise I'm going to make to you I'm gonna do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future we're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about the show thank you thank you so much back to the episode so if you go to her school yeah where did you go la the Aveda Institute at Minneapolis or Minneapolis yeah and how did that go for you cute I got better there I got better there and then I um and then I moved back to Arizona after I finished school so I only lived there for about a year
um in my mind I felt like my first experience in Arizona because that's where I went to college was like this failure and I really wanted to like go back and do better and like not have it be a failure um and so I moved back and then that was like a really cute time like I got to like I like worked before myself the first time I had like my own chair at a salon um and that made me kind of feel like responsible for like the first time and like I turned 21 in that time and then after a few years of that I was like I felt like I couldn't really cut myself out of a paper bag like I felt like I was in a good hairdresser all I knew how to do was like chunky Kelly Clarkson highlights like Circa light Breakaway 2004 you know what I'm saying so then I wanted to move to L.A and work at a really good salon and have a devil worse product experience so I did so then I moved to LA and then that's when I like really like figured out how to do better hair because I got a good job at assisting at a salon that was really good and how were you doing at that time how are you doing on a personal level yeah yeah like 22 years old yeah like I think it was it was I think I was like handling the move to LA pretty well up until my step dad got sick and then that's when it was like and then and then like my little like healing era came to like a screeching halt also the relationship it was like falling in love and my stepdad's diagnosis like together like yeah much all my trauma got triggered in was bad was was there something in in hindsight that you think could have been done to stop the stepdad's illness situation resulting in destructive Behavior was there was there was there therapy needed or a conversation or was there it was a lack of a support network or something that could have kind of caught you in a moment where you were you were falling Without Really knowing you were falling no well I don't think so because I I realized that I was like doing things sexually at that time that like I regretted and like I didn't feel good about myself afterwards and that's how I was kind of like oh I think this is like a problem and then um and that also kind of started
happening like right after I met like my like my first love and so and I told him about it I was honest with him I got help um so he knew I got a therapist at that time but like ultimately like I wasn't ready to to deal with it and so no I think that was kind of an interesting lesson of like you can have all the support in the world but if you're not ready to like sit with your stuff like nothing's gonna move you but um he it wasn't until he left me and uh Steve died that I and I got HIV that I was like okay I really want to like not do this anymore and that was when I ultimately like was able to get better but I needed to really I did it with a lot of support but I needed to hit rock bottom and then get the support I hear that a lot you know I hear this I remember approaching um I've got a friend who was in the public Spotlight and I was trying to figure out how I could help them because they clearly were aren't R in a difficult situation so I approached their management and said what can I do to be a supportive in this situation their management said to me we've been here quite a few times and in fact until the person wants to make a change um they won't and often we have to let the person hit rock bottom before change will happen and I remember at first hearing that being really uncomfortable with that the idea that you have to kind of let someone get there on their own and even if the route to there is downward first before it's up it feels really hard to accept I guess especially when you love the person do you think that's true yeah yeah but my subject always said you know like not every like well he this is like all 12-step like well-known 12-step phraseology but like every bottom has a basement so I can always get worse and also like you don't have to ride the elevator to the bottom so like not every like like everyone's Rock bottoms like look different like it doesn't mean that you have to like oh yeah it doesn't mean someone's gonna like bite it necessarily I mean they might but um some people are just like oh I got
like a DUI and that was enough okay other people are like you know yeah everyone's bottom looks different some people don't survive their bottoms yeah sex addiction something we don't talk about enough we we talk about drug addiction alcohol addiction we even talk about social media addiction and Screen addiction but having a conversation about sex addiction seems to be um harder than all of the aforementioned forms of addiction I remember having Terry Crews on the podcast um when we're in LA and him telling me that he had a porn addiction um and it was just during his life on the surface someone might find it hard to understand how something like that can destroy one's life um you you talk about having a sex addiction and going on a sex addiction course I believe when you were during that time when you roughly around you the LA time what impact was it having on your life and your relationships what's interesting because I think if if I'm correct I think like sexual sex addiction like is not like a recognized addiction and like the DSD whatever DSM yeah DSM um but it's whereas like you know other ones are um so the effects I was having on my life was like obviously I got HIV and but even before that like I was already like going to meetings and I'd already been to rehab twice before I got HIV so um like a sex rehab no they were like well one was one had like a sex uh like a sexual compulsivity like course like within the program and then the other one that I went to I found like an outpatient that that did that work so I could like I went there like you know during the day from like this other rehab I had to be like in a you know resourceful Queen um But ultimately it's like a process addiction you know whether it's like gambling food like sex it's like a it was like a process addiction so the way that um it was affecting my life was like just you know doing things that I regretted um I describe a lot of like
disassociative Behavior like this like inability to like just get off like couldn't get off the phone couldn't stop cruising like I just felt like I wasn't like in control of like I wasn't in control like so if you were to say like and you know in part speaker like ifs it would like like that firefighter was like so Blended in my driver's seat like I couldn't I couldn't get centered self like into the goddamn car when you say cruising you mean you were like searching yeah it's like a queer a queer term for like what like gays do when you're like yeah whether it's like you're cruising on grinder or you're like in a bath house or like whatever you're doing can you tell me about that Journey so at some point you realize that you've got sexual compulsivity at some point it becomes a problem in your life and you lose your partner in this case and there's you know you realize that you've lost control of that and then at some point you get to a stage of healing where you become aware and you understand where the origin of this sexual compulsivity that third Point understanding the origins of that sexual compulsivity when was that and how did that happen well you know it's interesting I think it's it's um that reminds me of this thing that this one guy in rehab said he said like not knowing why he was an alcoholic is not what made him crazy it was needing to know why he was an alcoholic is what made him crazy um so I think it's a lot and and that was actually a huge disappointment for me and I think we put way too much emphasis on like trying to like understand your origin story because like once I understood my origin story and it was like really clear as day and like I'd done all my work and I'd done like all this processing and like all the memories came back and like I already had all the memories but then like there was just certain things that I was able to connect and like really understand very clearly um I was still left with the scarring and I was still left with the patterns like I still once I knew it wasn't like I was like ah well now I don't want to [ __ ] 20 strangers anymore like it wasn't like that like all of
that pattern and all of that like you know feels insecure wants validation won't stop till they get the validation then they feel insecure again for doing the thing and then it like it's just a cycle that like repeats itself all the time and we talk about that in sexual compulsivity it's like the trigger and then like the trigger to do the thing and then you start cruising for the thing and then you do the thing and then the shame from the thing just makes you go right back into it so it's just this like cycle so um really it was just like understanding through so much like repetition of hurting myself like there's like oh I don't really want to do this I don't feel better after I do this like I think I'm going to but then I don't and um so it was really just like through continually like really hurting myself and then going back to therapy like falling off the horse getting back on like and also like meth use has a huge part to do with this for a lot of queer people at least and I mean there are straight people as well but I think it's probably like lesser numbers um because of like you know the whole like meth and sex like scene which is you know quite prevalent in queer communities um so it was not quite prevalent but it's like relevant it happens and so I think once the further away that I was able to get from meth the easier it was for me to heal from because also it's like and I talk a lot about this in my new show fun and [ __ ] it's like um sexuality isn't bad like sexuality is good um expressing her sexuality is good it's lack of uh it's lack of consent it's abuse population it's doing things that you regret those are the things that are not good um but you know decoupling that like kind of understanding that and understanding like are you doing this because you have a trauma response and so you're doing this or you're doing this because you really really want to do it so there's like a whole you know conversation about like sex positivity to be had here too um and you know a lot of people are really opposed to the idea of sexual
compulsivity or sex addiction because they're like that's really not sex positive and maybe it's you know XYZ or whatever but for me I think it's way more important to recognize that like in my case it was I didn't feel good and now I feel better and I know a lot of people like myself who were able to like you know come more into a space of healing and more into a space of like balance with their like sexual self so um but again just like anything that's never like all the way just like done and dusted like you're always in conversation with yourself and with your trauma and and your behavior and like how you want to regulate that or Express that it would also be your Mist to say like I mean I I already had a lot of healing prior to meeting my husband and I think that's part of like why I even like met him you know universally speaking anyway because I had done that work but having a husband who I can be open with and honest with and who you know doesn't judge me for the things that I've been through and he can like create a safe space for you know to hold my stuff with me is really helpful as well I was just chatting to some friends this um this weekend Friday about how we I was trying to figure out because one of my the the people that I was with the three of them they're all single um they're seeking not to be single and I was I was saying to them that I found the right person in my life when I was not necessarily the the completed version of myself but I had to do a lot of work to even find that jigsaw piece that matched me as a different shaped jigsaw piece like I had to do a lot of work and I wasn't all the way there because I do feel like you go on a journey with that partner but you have to kind of be aiming in the same direction at least so I guess my question to you this is a bit of a tangent is do you what do you think about that about like the the season where we find the the right person how much work do we have to do on ourselves to be ready when we meet that person um there's this other type of therapy that I love called pact therapy which stands for like the psychobiological approach to couples therapy which was um
invented by Dr stantatken so he created pact therapy and so he talks about an insecure functioning relationship and a secure functioning relationship so earlier when I was thinking about my mom and my stepdad I was like that secure functioning relationship my first relationship was an insecure functioning relationship with my first partner that in conjunction with like my stepdad's illness and then just being like 24 and 25 out of my window of Tolerance could not handle firefighters were activated all [ __ ] up you know like my life kind of so that's that so but Stan says that you can an insecure functioning relationship can turn into a function a secure functioning one if both parties want it if they're both willing to like work on themselves work on the relationship and also Stan says that like a lot of um Brokenness or like trauma in oneself can actually really be healed through that sort of like couple's therapy so I don't know if you really have to be like a more that whole thing of like two fully formed circles need to make the chain because like if you're a fragmented how are you like you're gonna make a [ __ ] up so I think I think we actually it pisses me off when people get too much into that like relational expert stuff because like just like we all have our own experience like every relationship has its own experience so we can like pull from some like you know um what's that called like uh like we can pull from some like data of or like but like not real day like just like oratory like data of just people talking about it and telling us things and well my friend this and my friend that but like ultimately I think that like there is there's like a different path for everyone to find like their relationship and whether or not it starts and I also think even in my marriage like I feel like we've had moments that we got married after like six months like in the middle of a [ __ ] pandemic like it was you know it was wow it was a weird time you know because we just started saying I love you and then borders shut down and then I was like if we want to keep I don't know if I can just not get [ __ ] by you for like years in like a respiratory pandemic like I like you know like I
think I need you to like get over here but he was British and I'm American and so we just were like let's see what happens and then once you get to the end of that FDA Visa or whatever it's like you either gotta get married and so it wasn't the way I think either of us ever imagined that like we would get married but like we are so happy I'm so glad that we did we've learned so much about each other we're like it's like I'm so happy that we did but like when I was little I don't know if I was like imagining they would like I'd get married like a backyard like with only a judge because like you know no one's family could be there because there's no you know what I mean so Something Beautiful about that though it was amazing and I'm like so happy that we did it but I just think everyone can have like a different like approach and just because you've had this or that or that like everyone just has like their own way and I think that's like cool movies [ __ ] us up there didn't they yeah they really do you know it's expectation expectation expectation and then that kills happiness and makes us confuse real with you know I don't know some of the [ __ ] and hmm that's a really great answer it's a really great answer we do we try and work out the perfect formula for things too much in life but there is really no Perfection when you're dealing with such complex organisms yes forming complex relationships so you moved to is it St Louis yeah St Louis yeah St Louis when you were 25 what was that about why did you leave it alone um wanted to be closer than my stepdad and so uh yeah that was my and also because I was like couldn't stop I was like La is why I can't stop doing drugs and having sex with strangers even though I love this person so much like let's and then unfortunately as my stepdad always said no matter where you go there you are so obviously leaving La didn't fix anything and then he actually passed away like three weeks after we left LA and got to St Louis so it was like bad on bad and then I really really freaked out like then I was that was like the most self-destructive era take me into that moment well one two fine
it's in the book yeah I read I read um I read I read that that was a very difficult time for you um because I also think that like we don't need to like I don't need to like War Story which is like what we call it in rehab like when you talk about like the worst thing I mean there's a way that you can do it like with respect and like not speak you know it's like I was doing this much things in these drugs and but like I also you know in protecting my energy like I've been on an international tour for 10 days like I've given myself so much into like my new show like which has been I'm so proud of it's like my third like hour of Comedy but like I'm not all the way in a space where like I want to speak to that part in my life right now so I'm just going to set a really loving boundary so I don't really want to chat about it that's fine I respect that thanks honey what do him if I if I when's the next significant moment in your life then so you that Stephen is his name Steve Steve passes away um causes a series of issues in your life um you move back to LA did you ever think TV and media would be part of your not in this way no and how exciting that that like it was such like a curveball but no I mean I just was like accidentally telling a really talented producer um an actress and comedian friend of mine uh who is a client about Game of Thrones and I was like have you seen this show it's like this and it's that like I did a little impromptu recap of it as I was like doing her hair and when I was done she was like that's a series and so then we did Gay of Thrones that was like December of 12 and then the next year we started doing gay of Thrones that like March and then um The Game of Thrones came out and it's going to be like one episode but then we got Alfie Allen for our second episode and then Funny or Die was like keep doing this and so then I went really from being like a hairdresser to learning on the job how to be a performer how to like improv how to deliver scripted lines how to write how to produce I mean I was writing and
producing and didn't even know that that's what I was doing because I was doing it on the job so like I like I just learned like this whole new skill set kind of like over the years like for like three months a year like I would do Gay of Thrones and I just like kind of slow and then after doing Game of Thrones for two years I was like oh this is so fun I want to do this more and so then that's when I started my podcast getting curious and then I did I got to like learn how to produce that and learn how to research for that and book clients for that I mean I think I did like the first 50 episodes with like myself and a sound engineer but I was like booking at myself like it was like it was like I was like just learning like all these things that I had never really done and so then I really started to get like stung by that bee and I was like I want to do this more and I always have loved doing hair but I was like I want to be I want to write more I want to be more on camera I want to like I want to do this more often and then in 2018 the queer eye or it was actually not 18 it was 2017. I read that the reboot was happening and they were casting for it and I was like like this is what I've been waiting for like this is the vehicle like I always loved queer eye growing up my grandparents and I would watch it together it was like I'm ready and then I I went to that audition and that audition was literally like the scene in Mean Girls when they're all at the fountain and everyone's like tackling each other um it was like that except for everyone's like being really sweet and I remember like this one creator of the show like his eyes like I said this like funny thing and I was like okay you need to be like you are on Gay of Thrones all times like you need to be on 15 and you just say [ __ ] one-liners all the time like just be the funniest you have ever even thought about being for the next 48 hours capiche like that's what I was saying like in my head and I did like I was just like and I just was like so on why you you know I think so I I hope not me darling well I have my suspicions but I
for you to you know it wasn't just an audition even the stuff you were doing with um was it funny or die wasn't it the the channel back then yeah Game of Thrones yeah yeah um do you ever pause and think like what is it about you that made you really successful in Game of Thrones and then really successful in queer eye what is it about you in your own assessment I don't know really I really don't because I think it could have been a million people I think that I have I think I'm resilient I think that I have been told no so many times and didn't turn around and go back I like found a different way I think that's really important we've got resilience but you know just from meeting you now you have a remarkable talent for wit and humor you're very funny and you have a very Unforgettable personality you're like you're unbelievable energy and no I'm no but I'm I'm you know no thank you no but you know something I can't do what you do and I've only met you for like I don't know an hour or so and I can't be I'm not as hilarious and witty and I don't know I don't I can't almost describe it that some people just have like a really engaging personality and you have that you have that like energy that's a huge part of it surely your success um because you're in you know especially on TV and now I don't know I really don't like I see people like I have I know people that make me laugh that I think are way funnier than me like way funnier way more witty way more like Unforgettable personalities but like I think that a lot of the people who I'm thinking of like had some message from the like in their lives where like they were like either or like their moment hasn't happened yet it's one of the two yeah yeah um but I think for a lot of people like maybe like backed away or like we're like I don't want to like because like I because actually in retrospect like I really it's not just I think that like oh I didn't chase my dream I actually really did Chase this like with gay of Thrones you know like I like I wanted more than gay after I mean Game of Thrones started in 2013 and I didn't
book queer eye until 2017 and then there was no knowing if queer I was going to work or not until like 2018. so I mean 2013 was 10 years ago like I've been at this for a long time um and so and there was like so many setbacks like so many setbacks through that time your authentic self I've sat here with a lot of people in TV and TV and media can often make us it can incentivize us to become a cat like not character but like and I sat here with Jake Humphries in a wonderful lady called Fern cotton who a TV yeah so Fern told me on on the podcast that she spent 10 years as a TV presenter and she I think realized at some point that she was living outside of herself and at least um she wasn't able to reflect the full array of her who she was um and that resulted in panic attacks and other sort of psychological issues she had um and it's and it's made and now she's so successful doing happy place where she's able to be herself so this conversation around or like being your authentic self being the the pathway to your greatest success what is your take on that this idea of like showing up as yourself regardless of The Temptations or disincentivizations or incentivizations to be something else how important to you has been being yourself regardless even like because I I totally understand but even that feels like um I don't think like what is like all the way authentic well it's like all the way yourself because I always get leery when we're like because like if if the alternative is like I don't think that there's a such thing as a vegan like all the way yourself or not yourself at all so I think it's like a spectrum like everything is kind of really much more like a spectrum than it is like a binary like choice so and like when you were saying with Fern it was like you know she's like a TV presenter but she couldn't show like the fullness of herself so like that's why I wrote over the top because I and I and I think in love that's where I say like or no it's an over the top I say like I love an episode of queer eye just as much as the next person but if I can't tell you my
full truth and tell you who I really am then like I can't help other people like me and I actually can't even be myself and then the whole Crux of over the top is and what I ask in the book is like would you still want to have a selfie with me like would you still love me if you knew my whole story and so that's you know and then I say and love that story that the resounding answer that I got from so many people was yes you know I do still love you um and like in most cases it was like even more so but were there Parts um I think we always have parts of ourselves that are informed by external factors like if I didn't get feedback from people when I go like when I say something funny that that if I didn't get positive feedback from that would I still be making all those jokes like so does that mean I'm not really you know what I'm saying like every every way that we show up in the world is because of like our socialization our relationships like our communities like I don't think that that makes you like it's really like your relationship with your self and I don't think that like I don't think there's like authentic and like inauthentic there's like there's like sometimes I'm more like this because of this this thing and sometimes I'm more like that because of that thing you know what I mean perfect makes perfect sense that's so interesting but it is the truth and you know I think is actually more authentic is like being able to like speak to what you're actually feeling like in the moment like I feel like earlier when we were saying like um like I literally caught myself I was like oh like you know brene Brown says can you talk about your trauma without becoming your trauma and I was like literally laying that up because I was feeling vulnerable with you I was and I didn't like it so I was like oh yeah I totally can like I can totally speak and it like doesn't really hurt me because I don't really want to talk about it that much because it's like but then it's like actually that was really a protector part that was coming up because I didn't want to talk about it and I felt like I was gonna become my trauma like because I am a little tired and I am a little run down like after the last two weeks like I've worked my
[ __ ] ass off for these last two weeks and another thing that's interesting that I don't really want to talk about but when I was originally supposed to when we were going to do this the last time I had like a really close family member die super young super out of the blue like which we don't but she got strep throat and died in four days my sister-in-law and so that's why I wasn't in the United Kingdom which I also didn't ever talk about publicly because it's like not anything I wanted to talk about but like it's I think really what being authentic is is Having the courage and like the vulnerability to say like this is what I'm going through like this is like actually the thought that I actually had in my head like when I was about to try to lie to you like this is really what it was and like for me it's like sometimes it's like if you come up to me for a selfie and like especially on that day like with Leslie my sister-in-law like I wasn't taking selfies it wasn't in a good mood when my cat fell out of a window and you asked me for a selfie I wasn't gonna take a selfie and sometimes I'll be like yeah like let's just like let's do it but then sometimes but you know normally if my life is okay and I'm not going through like some horrific trauma that's not the energy I give you when you want a selfie I'm like yeah girl like it's like let's do it but sometimes I'm not always like that and so I think that's really what's authentic is saying that like just because you always see me like or the two episodes of queer eye that you saw being five years ago and you remember me saying some funny quippy things what's really authentic is me being able to be like that's not always who I am and there's actually like a fuller picture there it's like that is like what authentic is but there is there have been moments like where I was probably like totally someone asking for yourself and it's like sure girl let's do it on the inside I was like I want to die like I don't feel good I feel awful and then the expectation of someone that I need to perform that for them constantly no matter what's going on that [ __ ] wears me out which is why I can't do it all the time so
like that's yeah I like I just think authenticity is like this like buzzword that we use when like really what it is is like are you willing to like be open about like what you need like what your experience is like what someone's like expecting of you regardless of how the external world might respond positively or negatively to that yeah gosh then if that is the definition of authenticity it's even harder than I thought because authenticity is it's often portrayed as just like like being being your personality what's in all being that you know if my personality is slightly weird in certain ways being that regardless of company but in the definition you've described there it's like boundaries and like staying true to myself regardless of the consequences of that externally which is as you say I have tied days I have days when I'm in a bad mood when I'm when I need some space where I don't want anyone to talk to me and on those days expressing that is authenticity yeah yeah I love that my girlfriend came upstairs yesterday when I was having a shower and she said to me that she tried the heel protein shake which lives on my fridge over there and she said it's amazing low calories you get your 20 odd grams of protein you get your 26 vitamins and minerals and it's nutritionally complete in the protein space there's lots of things but it's hard to find something that is nice especially when consumed just with water and that is nutritionally complete if you haven't tried the heel protein product do give it a try The Salted Caramel one if you put some ice cubes in it and you put it in a blender and you try it is as good as pretty much any milkshake on the market just mixed with water it's been a game changer for me because I'm trying to drop my calorie intake and I'm trying to be a little bit more healthy with my diet so this is where he all fits in my life thank you heal for making a product that I actually like The Salted Caramel is my favorite I've got the banana one here which is the one my girlfriend likes but for me salted caramel is the one how are you feeling now yeah you know your schedule's been crazy you've been
doing a lot of work lately yeah how are you feeling um look I feel I feel really grateful and at the same time I feel really frustrated um and that's the best way I can explain it right now I'm going through a lot of grief I just lost my sister-in-law two months ago watching my nephews like grow up you know dealing with unimaginable grief I'm watching my brother deal with unimaginable loss um so talking about you know how I'm feeling and it's just this has been a really hard time and I think balancing your private life with being a public figure who is constantly expected to be a ray of [ __ ] Sunshine no matter what is going on it can be challenging um so I love my hairline I love what I get to do with gbn hair I love that I get to be a comedian I love that when I want to like do a show I can like there's people that want to come see my comedy like comedy has been so healing for me and it's like one place in my career where I get to be irreverent and I get to like I feel like I'm the most myself on stage I think that's like the most accurate and unfiltered like version of who I am is like on stage but I think like any artist when you like like I just been burning the candle at both ends for the last like 10 days so like in this very moment in my life like actually this particular moment I feel frustrated and grieving um when I zoom out a little bit and give voice to that frustration and now I can like sit with this or like longer than actually tell like give a larger answer um I feel like actually it's the same I feel grateful and frustrated like Dylan Mulvaney is a really good friend of mine I love her so much I like watch what's happened to her in the press for the last few months I'm like so frustrated I just see so much
like just absolute garbage like just transphobic garbage all over the place I see really not very many folks really interrogating their beliefs around their transphobia interrogating like where are they getting their information um and then even understanding like our transphobia that we experience in our culture is like really truly rooted and like white supremacy and colonialism and this conversation goes back like 400 years and so that's like a really big systemic thing but then living in a state where like this woman literally just lost her life because this guy thought that she looked queer like there are kids that like like their families are like moving like they can't like they can't they like their kids are like if they have already started their transition and they're like if they're you know 16 year old and they're a sophomore in high school and they've been living and their gender identity since they were like a five-year-old kid they've been on puberty blockers uh when they were you know little they had a concert of doctors and their family who cares about them and loves them deeply help them transition um because if they didn't transition in some cases not all cases but some cases like these kids will have such intense gender dysphoria that they can commit suicide they can do things that can truly never be reversed and so we have these people making these hyperbolic claims about protecting children um and about you know protecting children from making irreversible decisions uh bathrooms fairness and sports all these things when like trans people make up like at most like two percent of the population like gun violence is out of control education's out of control like people don't have access to the food to the healthcare I mean my book's been banned like my book like peanut goes for the gold like they were talking about banning I mean like this is really serious and so like it's just frustrating I'm grateful but I think to like have had a lot of my dreams come true like I said in earlier but then in this like environment of like where you
feel like oh my God like if one person decides that like something that I said or did they can like I mean you literally because so much of the transphobia that we read about like when you read like if you read an article about what happened to Dylan um like the way that people just speak about trans people and non-binary people like the quotations the the inferred like threats or like not believing that we are who we say that we are and but then like how that actually has like been taken farther now to like revoking Health Care like you know limiting Access to Health Care calling Healthcare child abuse um it's just really frustrating because it's such like a gigantic conversation that there's a lot of nuance and a lot of people have been exposed to misinformation and disinformation don't really understand and so then and then I'm in this position of like like how do I balance like what I'm seeing happening to friends and people who I love and then like running a business and trying to grow my business and then with this backdrop of all this [ __ ] up [ __ ] it's hard so I'm like you know I'm grateful like and I'm also like a hairdresser who loves doing hair like I love good products like I'm someone who in my 20s like I would overdraft my checking account to get the shampoo and conditioner that I wanted like I because I know when your hair feels good like when you feel good about how you look like you just feel so much better and I would literally choose like products over food all the time in my 20s and so I wanted to make products that are clean and But ultimately like more than clean like I really wanted to make products that work really really well that don't cost like a hundred dollars for a shampoo and conditioner like I just wanted to make really highly functional products that work on people's hair the hairdressers love and that people love that they can actually afford and I'm so passionate about it but like there's a lot of things that I can't even think about the cool things that I've done because I'm like literally like if you read comments right now but like who cares about a
comment I don't really care about comments I care about like what's happened in my state like in Texas like I mean they're like like this like drag band that was just passed like I'm performing in Texas in Austin in December like I have to make sure like there used to be able to be like now in this show fun and [ __ ] I wouldn't want kids there anyway it was like an adult show but like it is like there is like I'm like there was there was a lot they were talking about that would like just force people to wear clothes of their like biological sex in public that I didn't pass or there's a conversation around it the way that we're like trending and heading and any time where you like talk about like limiting a whole group's ability to like you know access like information Healthcare education or just like their exposure to public under the guise of like protecting kids like historically we've really seen that a lot of times like against so many marginalized groups so I think any time when that starts happening we all really need to be super leery especially because like sex abuse is such a huge issue and it is happening in families and in churches and it's happening in schools um I'll tell you where it's not happening is it drag queen brunch okay it's not happening there um it's not happening in healthcare clinics well maybe it could be in some places like I don't you know but really it's like it is not happening in gender affirming care anything happening at drag queen branches um it's he's a dentist or you know some doctor might put you under some those things happen with these crazy [ __ ] CIS head doctors who you find out where like you know impregnating their [ __ ] patients or like that is what it's like maybe that but like in gender affirming care and in drag queen brunch it's not child abuse why why where's this because I've noticed this what feels like quite a tectonic shift um in transphobic narratives over the last couple of months in particular it seems to have been this this ground and I can't figure out where it's come from I was saying to this too earlier on
but if I don't know where it's come from I don't really know part of it is conservative thing tanks so when Biden won in 2020 um and we saw this in Virginia because the Virginia House of delegates uh it by one vote State Republican and then because they have off uh cycle elections and Virginia has told 2019 it flips back to or flips to Democrats and then 2021 it reverses again and goes back to Republicans and the issue that they really use there was bathrooms and trans rights because the democratic-controlled uh legislator in that 19 session had done some things on trans rights and they threw these conservative think tanks because a lot of times Virginia because it has off years like they use that as like a Bellwether to like test things like just on both sides like Democrats and Republicans but they were throwing everything at the wall they're abortion hell no they don't want that that's not going well for them right now because most people support the right to abortion so for Republicans like that's not a winning thing right now but the thing that in gay marriage that's not really a huge thing anymore because most people support gay marriage but when they threw trans rights when they through biological males competing against women in sports robbing you know your sweet pretty little white girl of her you know hard-earned sporting opportunities that stuck that stuck hardcore that got people [ __ ] circling the wagons honey so um that is when we really started to see and when you were like oh just in these last three months it has not just been these last three months that's because of the way that elections work and because we just had a midterm election in November of last year and then they don't take office until January and then it takes months and months for things to get through committee and stuff all of this [ __ ] has been in the works we've all been talking about this if you look at my getting curious that was canceled on Netflix last [ __ ] year there's a whole episode about this and it's it talks about the anti-drag bills up until 2022. as compared to that time we have four times more at that time and the graph was like this
so it isn't new and it just takes a minute but um I think another thing that we're seeing is that like you know how you were saying like oh the lion or like the the thing of like the Tigers coming for you run away from the tiger so that's like negativity bias versus like positive positive bias that's why a story of like someone getting murdered or someone getting abused is gonna go way farther than like you know the good news network story you know it's your negativity bias so that's the other thing is that like because we have so much fear-mongering around trans issues right now um that's also part of like why like it feels like it's going so much farther because people really are actually thinking that people really think that there's like little kids going and getting hysterectomies like going to school as a boy and coming home as a girl having like full you know what I mean like people actually have been convinced that like there's little teeny children who are making you know permanent medical decisions with no parental supervision with no medical supervision people really think that's true another huge issue that we're up against right now is that there's so much distance from information around like the fact that actually like biological sex is in and of itself a spectrum like that's not even a binary like do you know what intersex is do I yeah no I don't so that's the i in lgbtqia there is like six intersex uh there's six my friend Alicia Roth Weigel is an amazing intersex activist her book is coming out it's called inverse cowgirl she also just helped produce a movie that just came out that is called everybody but statistics show that up to two percent I've interviewed her I'm getting curious if you ever want to listen to it but up to two percent of our population is entering you should actually have her on this podcast because she's [ __ ] major but two percent of our population is intersex we don't test everyone that's born for what our chromosomes are so there's xx and then there's X Y but then there's also a variation that's x x y there's also some there's like these multiple variations there's six main ones that qualify someone as intersex um and so what happens is and is it like
if a kid is born intersex doctors they don't even Mark that down like they will take the kid they talk to the parent and they say like whatever the genitalia most appears as they're in literally one thing that I have learned and have been told is like doctors will literally say it's easier to dig a hole than build a pole so most people that are born intersex they will make into someone that looks biologically female but these people will have to take hormones for their entire life they have to have gender they have to have genital surgery like on their genitals when they are babies I'm talking like operate on their genitals when they're babies and then when they're kids and then they have to wear expanders when they're kids like their parents have to teach them how to wear expanders so they will have a vagina that looks like other people's vaginas so kids currently up to two percent of people now when you say that to transphobes they'll say like oh well actually that study was wrong and it's only 0.02 people it's not two percent it's it's 0.2 and either way two percent of the population of seven billion that's hundreds of millions of people who have intersex characteristics of 0.2 that's still millions and millions of people with intersex characteristics and there's a lot of people who look like they're men who are actually walking around here with xxy chromosomes a lot of men who can't have kids it's actually because they have they are intersex so intersex people exist all over the place like intersex is a real thing the idea of biological sex being a binary isn't even true and if you talk to biologists they will tell you exactly what I'm telling you and it's interesting in a lot of these anti-trans bills for kids intersex kids are specifically carved out so in these bills it says you can't commit no General mutilation no hormones your kid must be the the biological sex that they were born unless they are intersex and then we must do genital surgery we must prescribe hormones we must enforce the binary so that's and if you think I'm being hyperbolic right now not you or just anyone watching like do this research look up what intersex is because can I ask you a really important
question uh that I've been I've been mulling over in my head and I'm going to be I think there'll be a lot of people that are mulling this question in their head which is how can I be a and I'm not even sure if this is the right word but how can I be a better Ally um I think everyone needs to realize uh I think the Ally talk is a little bit garbage because it Ally implies that like this doesn't affect me but because I care about you I'm gonna fight against this yeah but actually these Tran this transphobia affects everyone like it affects everyone um it affects cisgender women because like even now like there's little girls who like they're wanting to like there's this like little girls soccer team in Utah where this one team beat the other team and the K the parents of the kids who got beaten accused the other girls of being transgender and they were like that's why they got beaten so like as we start to like incentivize you know checking kids genitals and checking like to make sure that you're who you say you are and like and really like villainize this idea of transness it starts like it's going to affect everyone like so if it doesn't affect you now it's like we already lost our right to reproductive health care because the right to reproductive Health Care in the United States goes hand in hand with its bodily autonomy so whether you're talking about determining what your body does reproductively or determining what your body does as far as your gender expression like they go hand in hand and it's all about control so that control affects everyone so I think we need to like allyship I think is like oh like I'm gonna do this like even though it doesn't affect me I'm gonna be your ally at least that's how I feel about it like that's like how when I think of it but really it's like we need people to understand that like if you're white racism it doesn't affect you in the same way that it does for a person of color but you shouldn't be like I'm gonna do you a solid and be an ally you should do what you should be you should be in that fight because in Injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere and it will affect you and actually the racism and the transphobia and the homophobia and the misogyny and the um the way that we are like so like don't talk about
disabled people and and what they need or people with disabilities in the disabled Community is like all this does is like keeps money in the most powerful people the most powerful people's hands like we all need to really come together like like to me it's like the corporate greed like that's really what is like causing so much of this and then like corporate greed because so much of that is like made by Republicans they're like look over here it's trans people look over here it's gay people look over here it's it's um it's food stamps like they're being lazy like that's why those people are being lazy these people don't even work these people are [ __ ] crazy with their Tran their their kids are running around like you know what I mean so it's just a lot of like smoke mirrors now as far as hair care or obsessive JV and hair is definitely gorgeous can I just say can I just say on this um your team said to me before you arrived they said we've we've worked with a few people but nobody's ever been so deeply obsessed in the product and been authentically obsessed in the product as you have so I've went through and I've had a little sample of all of them they are the most Exquisite exquisitely smelling products I've ever wonderful of um ingesting nasally um well done I heard this is breaking records thanks um pre-wash cup oil is amazing well I think for me I really love formulas I love formulas that work on all hair types um so for us I'm really big on like the amount of product like if your hair is finer in density you're going to use a little bit less if your hair is quite thick in density like a lot of hair per square inch you're going to use a little bit more um that's an amazing heat protectant right there that has niacinamide and charged lemon protein in it so it's it has no holes that's amazing for people who just like want to put a little bit of nourishment in their hair um but it also has great heat protection even if you don't style your hair with a blow dryer or a curling iron you're still experiencing heat from your body heat in the Sun so it's just a great hair hydrator um but no hold if you wanted for you if
you wanted to like bring out your waves a little bit we don't have any air dry cream in there but uh it's over there yeah air dry cream you could like put on your waves when your hair is wet and then like run your little like I saw it's the foam uh no it's a cream air dry cream but you can like really like take that out with like a little like your little wave brush and really just like get like bring out your waves um you could do like a sponge roller with that um I love our little air dry cream it's great for textured hair it's really great for like 18 through 4C that's on damage that's great for anyone who's got like highlights heat damage swimming a lot you sold me and I'm I can't wait I hope you love it we'll send something to you and your partner oh we've got a huge bag here thank you so much you're so welcome we have a closing tradition where the last guest leaves a question for this yes who's your next one who's your next one what about your life do you think is abnormal and why oh okay um [Music] maybe like my five cats three dogs and seven chickens and that's like maybe more animals than most people have but I get so much joy from my family and I don't know if I really want human babies I love my fur babies so maybe that's that's I think why it's my life is so fun do I get to ask the question the next person yes but do I get to know who the next person is I said to ask a random question of someone I don't even know yes and also they'll be turned into cards that people will play with their families and stuff oh [ __ ] so it can't be what's the [ __ ] thing you've ever done all right quick one as you guys know we're lucky enough to have blue jeans by Verizon as a sponsor of this podcast and for anyone that doesn't know blue jeans is an online video conferencing tool that allows you to have slick fast high quality online meetings without all the glitches you might normally find with online meeting tools and they have a new feature called Blue Jeans basic blue jeans basic is essentially a free version of their top quality video conferencing tool that means you get an immersive video experience that is super high quality super easy and super
basically zero fast apart from all the incredible features like zero time limits on meeting calls it also comes with High Fidelity audio and video including Dolby voice which is incredibly useful they also have Enterprise grade security so you can collaborate with confidence it's so smooth that it's quite literally changing the game for myself and my team without compromising on quality to find out more all you have to do is search bluejeans.com and let me know how you get on [Music] you got to the end of this podcast whenever someone gets to the end of this podcast I feel like I owe them a greater debt of gratitude because that means you listen to the whole thing and hopefully that suggests that you enjoyed it if you are at the end and you enjoyed this podcast could you do me a little bit of a favor and hit that subscribe button that's one of the clearest indicators we have that this episode was a good episode and we look at that on all of the episodes to see which episodes generated the most subscribers thank you so much and I'll see you again next time