Video URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTnLQ3cobBM
world's not for me because I don't know what I'm doing here anymore I feel nothing I think that that's the hardest part I haven't really spoke about this it's um yeah I'll just say it I mean the man behind her favorite hits music Superstar Grammy Award winner we're just getting started you have no idea what is the desire to be on stage come from Michael Jackson I wanted to make music art with Melody it was where I felt an escape from my head 14 year old looking 12 shots of vodka you know on a school night by myself running from the police and doing drugs that never stopped we were in our home and home and I'm there I'm high her period was laid went got other pregnancy test and I'm just like praying let this be a negative pregnancy test I'm not ready to give up the drugs and then I heard the tears I remember walking outside and I just started bawling because I couldn't feel any sort of happiness and I knew what that meant if you were to go back and be able to have a conversation now with young Ben at 14 years old before that first drink what would you say it's a great question it's going to cause way more pain than good but at the same time would you like to go for dinner with me and my guests here on the diver CEO we are holding dinner parties all around the world over the coming months and our subscribers on this YouTube channel are invited we're inviting 20 subscribers to every dinner so if you'd like to come for dinner with me and my guests here on the Diary of a CEO I have a favor to ask you all you've got to do is hit the Subscribe button and I hope to see you at dinner somewhere around the world very soon oh [Music] when I when I think about people's lives I think from doing this podcast this has become more sort of clear to me I see their lives as like a series of dots you know like or a series of dominoes that fell to lead them to where they are today and if you go back to the very start of that that series of dots to
understand the most influential moments or things that um inspired you to become the person you are today in every sense of the word what are those first dots those first experiences that I need to know in order to understand you my first dots my first dots I think would be listening to the radio outside summer time next door neighbor's yard and being introduced to music and loving music Falling in Love That Summer I believe I was six years old and you know I had an older neighbor who was maybe four or five years older than me and he had a bunch of um you know my best friend was next door he was five years older than us it was like a collection of of kids in the neighborhood and I remember that summer being this magical introduction to art to music to listening to the radio and falling in love with with Melody with sounds that was my first that was my first Dot and then my next dot shortly after that was falling in love with hip-hop music at the age of seven and those were the first two dots that really set me on a path a trajectory and this desire to be on a stage people can listen to music have that summertime experience they can listen to rap music but not have the desire to be on stage where does the desire to be on stage come from Michael Jackson I think it was I think it was MJ I think that you know like everyone else that grew up in the in the 80s there was something about watching Michael Jackson command a stage and what he did with his body what he did with his feet the moonwalk obviously but everything about it the Perfection the timing the the nuanced moves that he had the way that he commanded the crowd there was a curiosity around what is that I'm not sure but I want to try and an inner performer was born in my household at the age of seven and uh everyone that came into my house was subjected to whatever show I was putting on that day and I just wanted to you
know get on the kitchen counter and show people that like you know I have a show for you guys come watch parents home life parents um yeah they were they were super encouraging you know my mom was my biggest cheerleader my biggest Advocate someone that was always in my corner that was like you can do it you got this and I just believed her even when I shouldn't have and um those years were very were very crucial in my development of gaining confidence in in who I was as a person and as an artist School you you got kicked out of school dropped out of school around 14 15. yeah no I didn't get kicked out I was close to getting kicked out um probably should have got kicked out I wasn't going to school much but I went to a small school and up until uh High School and it was very communal um you know parents volunteered it was this alternative creative school and then ninth grade hit and that is when drugs and alcohol hit as well and I had freedom it was like you know the school was like 1600 kids or 2 000 kids or something and for the first time I wasn't being watched I could skip class um the teachers didn't notice if I was there or not or they didn't call my parents and um there was this level of Freedom so there was that period of of a year year and a half where um I went from kind of a b student to uh damn near getting kicked out for for failing so didn't last long I got back on track and um you know completed high school with I think I closed out with a 3.8 or 4.0 my last year of high school um and what did you want to do when you were an adult like if I lost 14 15 year old you know what are you going to be when you grow up would you have told me I wanted to rap you believed that you could get there you know I didn't know if I could or not but it wasn't it 14 or 15 I don't think I would have necessarily had the confidence like this is going to be the path but by the
time that I hit around 20 years old it was like this is this is possible 22 it was like this is even more possible 23 but the problem was that I kept having um you know it was just it was always like I could make this a reality if I can just get sober and I couldn't get sober so it was this like I need to get sober I need to get clean so I can make music that's meaningful that's impactful because once I got high it was like the veil was over my eyes I had no connection anymore to the music and um it was kind of always that balance but I felt in my heart if I can get clean I can make enough music that will resonate with people that might be able to pay some of these bills when people think about I built a business with my business partner for many many years and throughout that process he was and he's been on the show before he he was addicted to alcohol and I didn't know what it was so we were living in the same house together I'd go downstairs at three at 3am in the morning and I'd find him in the laundry room drinking from a bottle yeah and I'd put him back in bed and then you know 5am I hear a sound he's managed to get a another bottle of alcohol and his bed sheets are covered in this red wine and I just thought you know in my naivety this is someone that just likes alcohol right and no one had taught me this concept of addiction the disease of addiction I had no idea what it was so it wasn't until things escalated even further that there was almost an intervention moment where we literally met one one evening because they've been an incident caused a lot of damage and it was basically like an ultimatum moment yeah then I went on the Journey of understanding what addiction was and the disease of addiction as you describe it when Jay spoke to you on Jay's podcast I could see he was doing a similar thing to what I was doing when I was researching your story which was like trying to understand the cause of it and I'm not even sure if that's the right question do you know what I mean like we're all searching for a cause yeah and and so I wanted to ask the question to you like what is in your view how did that relationship with drugs and
alcohol come to be you know I think that for me it was the first time in my life where I felt an escape from my head it was like what was going on in your head I don't even know but I just felt to reprieve I felt this like this Elation this moment of like all of these thoughts in my head are gone and I am here with this bottle and no one's around and I get to be a secret and I get to hide this and I feel free I feel free from whatever it was in that you know 14 year old puberty hormonal teenager that was going on in my life it was like quiet and um I had the allergy from the very beginning it was you know One Shot Two Shot what does four feel like what does eight feel like and all of a sudden I'm taking 12 shots of vodka um you know on a school night by myself hopping on the bus and you know running from the police and it was a crazy first time drinking alcohol that never stopped for me every time pretty much that I drank turned into a Crazy Event like that um but I don't know I don't know exactly at the time what I was what I wanted to escape from I think that there was just that changing reality there was that oh I like to be able to to skew what's in front of me and to silence the minds from your from going through the process of recovery and rehab and all those things you've met a lot of other people that have struggled with the disease of addiction has any of that process taught you anything about your own relationship or the causal factors of your own relationship with substances and alcohol you know I think that there's through lines absolutely and I think that for a a lot of us that have the disease of addiction there's trauma there's childhood trauma there's you know if the disease kicks in later in life maybe that trauma came into play later but I think that there is a through line in what I have seen in others um and that's you know some sort of thing that we're we're holding on to or a secret or you know something that happened to us in life that
um drugs and alcohol kind of numbs and takes away quells that that inner guilt that inner shame whatever it might be I think that there's a through line between us addicts and in our past and then I think also there's people that just have the allergy and maybe it's maybe it's not related to trauma at all maybe we're not predisposed or maybe we are predisposed It's a combination I don't know but I do see that um a lot of people are trying to escape it's a difficult thing especially for the um the people around that individual like to because you know going back to my own example with my best friend and business partner I didn't have the tools to know how to be there right you know and I also didn't have the information to understand what I was dealing with like if you'd asked me when I was 25 like what was going on with my friend I just loves to get drunk right it's part of the culture yeah and then when you meet what we do is 25 year olds yeah um if if you were to give advice on like how those around the individual who is struggling with the disease of addiction can be there or what their role is supposed to be or what would you what would you say what advice would you have given me at 25 years old you know I think that there's there's resources that we have there's Al-Anon where if you have someone that it's a 12-step program for people that have loved ones or friends or whatever that are going through the disease of addiction and how to show up and you literally they're in the basements of churches all over the world or you know community centers or wherever they're free and there's people that are going through the same common struggle of how do we show up in an authentic way and help save this person's life that we love um because we don't have the information you know for so many of us I think that there's this notion of just stop why don't they just stop why are they hurting themselves how could they do this to me we make it about us right like how could they do this to me how could they lie to me how could they go out and say that they were going to quit and then keep going why don't they see who they turn into just stop
just stopping doesn't work there needs to be a support system there are needs for for the attic we need 12-step meetings we need therapy we need you know to evaluate our mental health we need to work the steps we need a sponsor we need a community of people that share our very same struggle so we can see ourselves and experience the therapeutic value of one addict helping another that is our piece but until we get there just stopping is almost impossible and sometimes it takes you know hitting those really low points of of getting arrested or getting Court mandated to go to you know 12-step meetings but on the others the other side of it here you are with your friend and you have no idea how to show up authentically in that moment and actually really come from a place of love and you're angry and you're so angry right you're pissed you don't know how to deal with that emotion and you realize that once you go to this meeting these meetings that just like the addict we're powerless over drugs and alcohol you're powerless over your friend and there are things that you can do to help there's probably things that you can do to maybe hurt but overall they have to be in enough pain that they want to change and you're not going to be the Catalyst and you can put them in I've watched it time and time again of people with the best intentions that end up enabling that end up you know fueling the fire that end up trying to help but not having the tools themselves and I think that Al-Anon is the best easiest free way to even if you want to go to a meeting or two to get some skill sets some language and to realize that um at the end of it come from your heart and lead the expectations aside because this is their Journey at the end of the day the moment that I described this moment where we had kind of like an intervention with my best friend and it was really the day we met on a Sunday in an office after the Saturday before he'd got very very drunk and caused a lot of problems with team members he's talked about this like doing things
in public going on someone's table next to the restaurant um the table next to his at the restaurant he was at with our team grabbing their alcohol off the table and doing all these crazy things and getting kicked out of the restaurant it was a surrendering the day after and you used that word before yeah we met in the office and it was the first time I came with anger and it was the first time he told me how he felt yeah and he cried in front of me and that was and then my anger immediately evaporates because it's the first time I've heard that this individual is suffering with something right and there's a pain and that was the day that was the the day he became sober went to therapy went on that journey and he's been sober for eight years since then but it was that surrendering moment it was that like him reaching out and saying like I need help in me actually like listening yes you see him for what he is in that moment which is hurting which is an immense pain he doesn't want to be like that he feels the guilt and shame of his actions he's tried to start and and stop and go back and forth and things that okay maybe it's just hard alcohol or or dark alcohol or maybe it's beer or maybe it's the combination of this drug he's tried everything and he's hurting and he doesn't know how to stop he doesn't have the tools and I think that that surrender that you talk about is one of the most beautiful moments for an addict or an alcoholic is like waving the White Flag we think about surrender is is a weakness right like you don't surrender you keep fighting you keep going no with this disease the greatest thing that we can do is surrender is to snitch on ourselves is to wave that white flag is to let other people know that we are struggling on our own internally that this is something is broken and I have no idea how to get out of this and um and what did that do when he was able to be human to you you were like okay now I can come from a place of love because I'm pissed off about what you do last night and I'm pissed off that you've done X Y and Z and that we've had this conversation or whatever the situation is um
and you know you ask what can you do as a 25 year old friend coming from a place of love and I think compassion and even if it's not you know empathy isn't possible because that's not what you're going through I think that that compassion is is what makes people feel you know what they actually care about me it's not just like I'm pissing them off but they actually care and you know just kind of like letting go of our own expectations of people and meeting them where they're at is always you know the best place to show up from when was your moment of surrender God I've had many I think my my biggest moment of surrender I was 25 or 26 years old 25 I think and I had been on oxycontin for you know I don't know a couple weeks couple a month and it caught up really quickly in terms of my addiction to the point that you know I lost a ton of weight I'm you know I'm scratching I just was like I was dope sick and I had never really experienced that before um all the happiness any serotonin was gone it was one of those moments of I remember like walking outside and it was summertime in Seattle which is like most beautiful place in the world in the summer and I remember walking outside on a tank top and I'm like you know I just started bawling being outside because I couldn't feel any sort of happiness it was gone it was like it had evaporated and um and I didn't really want to be here anymore like there was that moment it was like there was no real suicidal um ideation or plan but it was just this like maybe this world's not for me because I don't know what I'm doing here anymore I feel nothing I feel nothing um except deep deep grief and the obsession to get more and it was shortly after that my um you know I went to a family function and I'm trying to you know piece it together and just be presentable and just get through it and my Dad pulled me aside and um you know I think my mom had asked him to
talk to me because you know we didn't grow up having too many heart-to-hearts it was mostly with my mom but my mom I think urged him to do it he pulled me aside and just asked me are you happy and um that was my surrender moment I kind of lied to him I couldn't lie to myself it was a very clear answer of absolutely not I am so broken I am I don't even know what happy is anymore and um he asked me to go to rehab said that he would pay for it and immediately I wasn't ready for that surrender though you know in that moment I'm like no no I I've heard about these 12-step meetings I'll go to those I know someone that goes and um he came back and was like I think that it would be really good for you to have these 28 days to just focus on yourself and of course there's always the like well I can't go because if this is happening and this is how you know we're not worried about those things happening when we're risking Our Lives doing drugs or copious amounts of drinking we're just worried about it when it's like now we need to go take care of ourselves and it's like the the addict Anthem is like well let me just get my life together and then I can go to rehab it's not really how it works it's more like um you know we come in very you know we're at our worst no one goes to rehab and they're like you know life's okay but I think I need some rehab no people come in when they are at their bottom and I was at I was at mine and just saying yes to him that day on the porch saying that I would go was my surrender moment it was my white flag and it was the best decision I ever made in my life hands down have you ever reflected on that crossroads moment and if you'd chosen to go the other way and you'd said to your dad maybe yes I am happy when he asked at that family get together or when he said go to rehab you'd said no I think there's a good chance I could be
dead um really absolutely and that was close at that time I've been you know this disease we think of um we think we're so far away from Death you know that we're Immortal and that it won't happen to us and um I think I'm probably in my 30s in terms of how many people I know that have died from the disease of addiction um you know when I wrote my first song about the disease of addiction called other side when I got out of rehab um maybe in 2009 I had known three people so we've gone up by probably around 25 30 people since then um I'm not naive to how quickly it can happen and taking into account fentanyl as well right now and what's going on with street drugs it's it's rampant we are we are facing an epidemic right now around the world but particularly in America I don't know how it is over here but I think this fentanyl is no joke it's killing people um they think they're getting one drug they're getting another drug and the nature of the disease it is out to kill us that is its sole purpose and um yeah I'd be dead I think so you've been so successful throughout your career with your music and it's it's it's an interesting hearing those stories of the struggle and the ups and the downs and the battle with that and then looking at your your catalog in terms of music and I was it was crazy I was going through I was going through all your songs going back through the through the years and I'm looking at the numbers on these [ __ ] records and I'm thinking [ __ ] 1.4 billion views 500 million views 500 200 million views and huge huge numbers the records are they feel Timeless when I listen to them um there's a real real real talent there which you know when I think about the struggle you've been through then I look at the back catalog of the work you've produced from an artistic standpoint I'm
asking myself what's the relationship here like has has that has your struggles played into the music or has your struggles sort of taken away from the music and your potential like what is the relationship and what is what has music been throughout that struggle to you it's a great question and it's honestly a question that I think about too like I've I've kind of asked myself that same question in the last 48 hours I don't know if I have an answer I believe that it's all panned out the way that it's supposed to be has drugs and alcohol affected me being prolific absolutely it's taken away work ethic in moments it's taken away um Seasons years of of time where I could have been focused where I could have been building momentum but instead I chose the path of um instant gratification and we were talking about this last night there's one of my mentors and ogs in my 12-step program are one of them um you know her name was Rita and she had this business card that she used to give out to people and it said that her greatest regret in life is trading in what she wanted in the bigger picture for what she wanted in that moment and I always think about my life in that way of is this what I want for the greater good for my story to be or am I acting at a place of Desire am I acting at a place of wanting to change the way that I feel right now knowing that that will hinder me that's not really what I want what place am I coming from and weighing those and I think for a lot of my life it was no I want this right now and that oftentimes is a destructive pattern whether it was sex or with drugs or you know whatever um of trading in what I truly wanted what I truly believe to be the truth because my truth is that I am the best version of myself when I am clear when I am silent enough to be able to be a conduit to something that is outside of my understanding I couldn't even put it into words it's that magic that happens in the studio where all of a sudden
you're almost removed from the pen that's writing the song and um you know I choose to call it God but that God presence that being is is absolutely moving through through me I've never been able to feel that um without a spiritual practice music has always been a spiritual practice for me but I think that it's made me who I am I've made tons of mistakes and since I've been famous I made tons of mistakes that were that were you know influenced by the drugs that I was doing or you know the the positions that I got myself in but those also turned into learning moments they turned into maybe a song or maybe a conversation or maybe the thing that I needed to share about in a 12-step meeting that saved someone's life I don't know I don't know but I know that um I'm here I know that I'm here for a reason I know that my catalog um is something that I'm super proud of and you know beyond the numbers it's like last night driving from Birmingham into London I listened to Ben my new album I hadn't had that really that moment for a while of listening to my album and its entirety because you're working so hard on it there's so many nuanced things it's like you can't even just enjoy it and I sat in the car and I listened to it all the way through and um it's the best feeling to be like you know what I I worked really hard on something and um in all of these little moments all of these mistakes all of this pain eventually finds its way into purpose and I think that that's an i an artist highest form is to be able to take pain and repurpose it into purpose what is giving you that or like you describe that moment in the studio where you're clear and you're almost channeling something you'll hire creativity whatever that is have you been able to figure out what it is that causes those moments of of clarity and and focus and stability and then on the other side of the coin what causes the the chaos in our lives the instability is there any causal factors
yes for me it is exercise getting outside it's like actually cardio it is being of service to other people it is a spiritual practice it is coming from Faith rather than fear it is thinking about ourselves less and others more it is being still in the studio not thinking about what is this going to do for the world but just actually being present and removing the ego which is what all of those things help facilitate right like when we when we're of service when we work out when we show up when we're at peace when we think about ourselves less we're removing the ego I'm stripping it away it's a process of excavation and the opposite is when I'm thinking about okay what if this song doesn't work at Radio what if this you know what if Tick Tock doesn't you know do the challenge what if uh you know whatever it is when I'm future surfing thinking about the outcome rather than enjoying the process the process is where the magic happens the rest of it I've never for all of the records that I've ever put out there has never been a moment of any calculation that has worked doesn't work the records that I've been like oh yeah this is going to be the one those are the ones with like two million views on YouTube and the ones that I'm like you know who knows those are the ones with you know that really affected culture that really like got out there and you know the world knows these songs 10 11 years later or five years later or whatever it is I think the intention in the studio is so important because even if you know even if I put out a new album that doesn't stream as as well as the last one or whatever it is that's not my metric if I'm if I am basing my identity around those numbers and those metrics um I will always be disappointed my bucket will always be half full and if I'm basing it on what was the
intention what am I actually trying to get at the music is going to hit who it hits it was already written I just have to get out of the way when I try to control hang on when I try to play Puppet Master that's when I become miserable and um and I'm not effective at my job so two questions here they're on that basis you know I'm sure people ask you what your favorite record is whatever I'm not really interested in that I know it's like choosing your favorite children or whatever and they're all different for various reasons but in terms of the most important record you think you've ever recorded the one that you believe has benefited um others the world the most irrespective of performance metrics what what is that record it's two records it's um Same Love yeah and other side interesting and I think Same Love is the obvious answer because it came out at a time where we as I'll speak for for America but kind of you know even more it came out at the time in America where we were having this conversation around legalizing gay marriage where um there was a shift there's a cultural shift and that song became became something bigger than than me it became a move a moment for a movement towards equality and as a as a songwriter as an artist as someone that um you know Prides himself on on the pen and the in the ways that it can move spirit that's the that's up there that has to be one or number two the other one is other side and the other side is a record that not as many people know but it is one that it was kind of the first you know it was the first record I wrote when I got out of the treatment and it was that I I am literally not even here right now I'm just trying to be silent enough in my own head to just let this magic happen but it talked about the disease of addiction for the first time and I kind of was like ah I just need to get this out I don't
know I I am an addict and I don't want to like hide this [ __ ] and I know it's not cool I know it's not gonna sell more records I know it's not what anyone anyone else is talking about I know it's not what my favorite rappers are talking about but I am an addict and I have to be sober um and I need to let whoever was listening me at the time the 2000 fans that I had I needed to let them know that this is who I was and um you know it said that we're only as sick as our secrets I didn't want to be sick anymore I just wanted to tell my truth and that was the record to do it and what I watched happen after that I'll never forget people coming to the shows you know six people 12 people 14 people in recovery coming because they heard other side and it changed their life and I know what that feels like as someone on the other end of it who's life has changed so many times by the music that I was listening to and yeah it's those two those are the ones I listened to a drug dealer earlier and um I listened to it but then I looked at the comment section and it is like it's profound it's profound that the second comment on that video is from of recovering heroin addict who's crying while they're watching that video because it's making them feel heard seen and understood um in a really profound way and every every comment was like that every comment was um speaking to like the liberating and therapeutic impact that someone was having on you know thousands and thousands of people it's a really profound thing it's almost you know it's a lot isn't it in terms of you know you talked about those people coming to a show the seven the ten the twelve has that ever felt like and this is a strange word to use but does it has that ever felt like an emotional weight at all because you're hearing these stories I sat with Jordan Peterson in fact and he talked about how people coming up to him and telling them about their own Journeys their own emotional path to recovery or healing can sometimes feel
like a like an emotional way it's a lot to carry I feel the opposite really I feel I feel connection it connects me to the art because I'm not in the same place that I was in 2009 when I wrote that song my life looks very different I think when I hear people say that they removed or they were transformed or that they felt some inspiration or you know whatever it is um for one it's an it's an opportunity and I think that maybe this is where Jordan and I differ is that um I'm an addict this person coming up to me is an addict and there's an immediate connection there that I can't describe I don't know what it is but it's just like oh you got the same oh my God we had the same thing how are you doing with with your journey how are you doing with yours um and it's not a weight it's more like ah thank you for you know the the meet and greet of thank you so much appreciate it thank you so much like that's a way that's just going through the motions the actual moments of people telling me those things when I'm like okay let's pause like we don't need to get through the line so fast let's you know we'll get to the hotel when we get to the hotel let me be present with this person because this conversation is changing my life I'm reminded why I wrote that record in the first place I'm reminded of the beauty that happens when we share honestly like those are those moments where I'm like thank you that's where I feel like I am the recipient of the recipient of a gift um that's coming full circle because they're reminding me um of how important it is to to share honestly regardless of how it looks regardless of how it's perceived and I think that so much of the time there's this you know well if I tell my truth will I be an outcast will I be accepted will I be kicked out of the tribe will I um still be a part of we want to be a part of and there's this thing that happens like
what happened with your friend when you saw him finally when you saw him not is the alcoholic that was [ __ ] [ __ ] up in the house or messing up your life or like why doesn't he just stop at you saw him and his raw estate that's his that's raw Humanity right there and when we demonstrate that when we can show others that we can be Raw it just it inspires because other people like oh I can tell my truth too and I'm not gonna get kicked out wow let me show up as my authentic self quick one as you guys know we're lucky enough to have blue jeans as a sponsor and supporter of this podcast for anyone that doesn't know blue jeans is an online video conferencing tool that allows you to have slick fast good quality online meetings without any of those glitches that you'd normally find with other meeting online providers you know the ones I'm talking about and they have a new feature called Blue Jeans basic which I wanted to tell you about blue jeans basic is essentially a free version of their top quality video conferencing and that means that you get immersive video experiences you get that super high quality super easy and zero fuss experience and apart from zero time limits on meetings and calls it also comes with High Fidelity audio and video including Dolby voice they also have expertise grade security so you can collaborate with confidence it's so smooth that it's quite literally changed the game for myself and my team without compromising quality at all so if you'd like to check them out search bluejeans.com and let me know how you get on DM me tweet me whatever works for you let me know how you find it over the last couple of how long maybe four months I've been changing my diet shall I say many of you have really been paying attention to this podcast will know why I've sat here with some incredible Health experts and one of the things that's really come through for me which has caused a big change in my life is the need for us to have these superfoods these green Foods these vegetables and then a company I love so much and a company I'm an investor in and then a company that sponsors this
podcast and I'm on the board of recently announced a new product which absolutely spoke to exactly where I was in my life and that is heal and they announced Daily Greens Daily Greens is a product that contains 91 superfoods nutrients and plant-based ingredients which helps me meet that dietary requirement with the convenience that hewell always offers unfortunately it's only currently available in the US but I hope pray that it'll be with you guys in the UK too so if you're in the US check it out it's an incredible product I've been having it here in La for the last couple of weeks and it's a game changer social media you don't you don't really do social media do you don't really in terms of like engaging I heard that you're not the biggest fan of social media ah well that hurts my feelings because I try pretty hard well I know I'm just kidding yeah um like no I do you know but you're not out there making you're not out there every day talking about your life insurance behind the scenes yeah social media for me is part of my job sometimes I'm great at it sometimes I mean I'm just this guy I'm like okay what are we doing on you know social media now and then it's like Zoop but outside of work outside of work no I mean I want to be present I want to be like you know it's like my kids show up today and you know my videographer is like yo if you can get a little bit of iPhone footage with the kids like walking around like that'd be awesome and I'm like you know asking my wife five minutes into Norwalk like hey do you mind getting some footage of us walking like and I was like never mind never mind never mind it doesn't matter like it doesn't matter what matters is that I'm with my kids and then I'm being president and then I'm happy um and I'm and I'm off my phone because I've experienced both ways and it's a balance right like there are times where I need to be on my phone and I need to be on social media and I need to be handling whatever needs to get handled but um
no I think it's it's about the relationship that an individual has with social media and again it comes back to intention is the intention for the most likes for the most engagement for the most followed like if that's what it is then there's always going to be a void there that's looking to be filled and it can be really toxic and I was talking to you know a couple a couple guys on on tour with us and and I you know 20 year old 21 and just talk you know they're just constantly analyzing Tick Tock and trying to figure out why did this post perform and this one didn't and maybe it's because we're over in Europe and the Geo targeting and all of this and I'm like you guys are 20 like you're on tour in Europe like go out and have fun explore like live outside of tick tock and when this is all that they've known and that this in this platform is the reason why I know he exists and why his songs have gotten out there it can be really challenging and I feel for the younger generation and I feel for the older generation that's like yo the label's telling me that I have to do this and I really don't want to be here at all but here I am post um there's this there's a spiritual sickness that can be easily um insidiously infiltrate our psyche if we're just here Non-Stop and and I just don't want to be on that point of um you know those 20 year olds that are with you and you're giving them that advice if you could um you know you've had this immense career and you know a lot of people have great careers but yours has had so many twists and turns and twists and turns that the wisdom you've gained from every twist and turn I believe is pretty profound that's why I really loved your conversation with Jay if you were to go back and be able to have a conversation now with that young Ben at 14 years old let's say right before that first um drink what advice would you impart on him about life it's tough to say and it's you picked an interesting time period because you
picked before and I don't think that I would have I don't think that I would have warned that 14 year old maybe I would have I think that but I don't think it would have done anything you know what I mean like maybe that conversation would have looked like bro you're an addict you're never going to be able to shut this off it's going to cause warm way more pain than good but at the same time I can't discredit the experiences that I've had that have led me to this table right here in this moment and if it wasn't for those mistakes um you know I have a different story I have a different um Arsenal to pick from in terms of what moves me creatively and um again repurposing that that pain but a lot of that pain has hurt others has hurt close family members or my wife or best friends and um those moments are hard to deal with I think if I could tell my 14 year old self anything it'd be like bro you're gonna do what you're gonna do enjoy it find gratitude a spiritual practice get outside of your own head get into the act of loving and being there for others and just don't stop I think that when I have stopped in my life when I have let up on on the gas not just like not stop in terms of the work ethic but stop the spiritual practice that's the thing that's always brought me back it's not the work it's not the amount of Engagement it's not the algorithm it's not the YouTube streams it's none of that what actually makes you happy and fulfilled find that thing and push into it as hard as you can that's where the magic lives use the term spiritual practice to describe what that is in in detail what what you mean by spiritual practice for you well it's looked like many different things throughout my my time here you
know in moments it's been a meditation practice uh in moments it's been a yoga practice and moments it's been uh you know many 12-step meetings throughout the week or step work or working with others but I think it's the art of just getting outside of oneself and getting grounded in the moment and serving others that has been my consistent consistent point of reference is you know what when you feel spiritually sick reach out to someone else whether it's picking up the phone or call that person that you've been avoiding or whatever just get outside of your own self do the thing that makes you uncomfortable push into that because that's when life all of a sudden becomes vibrant colors come back it becomes alive of like oh yes I I turn this off I stop thinking about me and what I wanted in the moment and I just showed up for someone else and I found that connection I found God in those moments I found that little piece that reminded me of who I am just by showing up for for another second ago you talked about when you're talking about other people you said that one of the hardest things is knowing that you'd go on to hurt other people yeah who did you hurt I've heard my parents for my wife probably the most um I think anyone that I was being dishonest to you know there's this double it's almost this double life that that needs to be lived and you know when I would go off and I'd relapse and I'd you know I'd lie about it I wouldn't you know relapsing is you know for me has always been a sneaky thing it's not like I'm like all of a sudden like hey guys just so everyone knows I'm high again no this is like quiet hush um I'm trying not to get caught and in those Seasons protecting that and people are probably like yo what's going on with them like you know and I'm lying about that and it's just a really toxic spot you know I'm gaslighting my wife and and you know making her feel crazy I think that that's probably
if she was here asked what's the hardest part of being you know in a in a partnership with an addict it's like those moments where he made me feel crazy it's not that I went back to the drugs necessarily it's that um I made her feel like she was she was crazy and that she was off because she was even questioning me and again turning into someone that I'm like that's the worst version of myself that's the shittiest version of myself that's something that in my in my heart I know to be um not the way that I want to treat anybody much less my significant other or my best friends or my team but here I am again putting everything to the Wayside just so I can can continue to use and um it's a pretty dark place was there a point where you thought you might lose her yeah yeah I mean relapse in Coven you know the beginning of coven definitely was um you know she kicked me out of the house and um I went to stay in my parents condo and I remember just uh driving around aimlessly like I'm gonna lose my kids gonna lose his marriage and I think the thing that I think that's thing that scares me the most is um if I'm being honest is not being in my kids lives and the devastation that that would potentially and that impact that it would a divorce would have on them and the other flip side of it is I believe the kids are resilient and that that pain can be repurposed and that you know half of the world is divorced and you know Beauty can come out of it and does all the time and people end up in much better situations out of divorce so it's I'm not against divorce but for me and my and my kids that was the thing that I was holding on to was just this like I want our family to stay together and the fact that I can I
it would be because of me it would be because of my self-centered instant gratification Need to Escape not actually working my 12-step program ass like that I would be the reason that this family broke up and I would have to to hold that and that weight the idea of that weight still seems too much to to live with I know I could do it but in that moment of that that last relapse that was definitely a yeah it was it was a real scare into um look what you're about to lose for what for this this doesn't even make you happy it stopped working right away it never worked it never worked for you it never worked it never worked in the long run even if you had a good night or two in the big picture um you have an allergy and that allergy is trying to kill you every time you pick it up I've read um about a story when you were in a I think you're in a hotel room or something and your wife had taken a pregnancy test and you would you just relapsed and she was in the toilet and you heard her crying through the door yeah and you knew that you knew that those weren't happy tears yeah because she was pregnant yeah can you take me back to that moment and just tell me exactly what happened dude you were in it was a hotel I was there a house you were at our house okay yeah we were in our home and um yeah it's it's kind of a I mean it's the truth but it's um yeah I'll just say it I mean I'm there I'm high she doesn't know it but she knows it but you know she hasn't caught me yet and I just keep denying it and um you know her period was late went got her the pregnancy test and I'm just like begging to a God that I had no connection with please please let this be a negative pregnancy test um I'm not ready yet I'm not ready to be a dad I'm not ready to give up the drugs I'm not ready to give up the drugs and I remember just like on the carpet
literally like praying and then I heard the tears and I knew what that meant that she was pregnant and I knew that that meant that I needed to get clean and it was that moment of like that pull and I think that that's the hardest part I haven't really spoke about this I think that's the hardest part about the disease of addiction is this pull is the compulsion and the obsession for more yet knowing that more is the thing that is leading to depression The Rock Bottom the not wanting to be here anymore but it's this just that at odds and I I felt that inner turmoil of just I'm not ready to be a dad because I still want to get high and I know I need to stop but I am just not ready yet and um sure enough she was pregnant and I got clean and she was pregnant with our first daughter Sloan so you know I think my my reservation is just like Sloan watching this someday and being like Oh it's tight so dad was super high um on the carpet and didn't really want me that's not true at all either I mean I was high and I at the time I didn't want her but when I got clean it was like okay let's have this baby like I want to be a dad I want to be a dad who um my kids never see loaded that they don't even know that part of me that they don't have to be like oh Dad's dad's high again or Dad's hiding or mom kicked dad out of the house that they don't even know that part of my my story um that's what I wanted well if you come to learn about the Journey of life and and as it relates to like and I said a second ago that the ups and the Downs the ups and the downs but you persevere and that's really all the choice we have is to persevere and to find something meaningful to aim at today and then we'll get another chance again tomorrow and we kind of like right
off yesterday and the day before because with that side of our control now and it's about what can I aim at today as you sit here today what are you aiming at like the past is the past like we can't go back and change things it is what it is it's I think it's important to be aware of it and to admit it to ourselves to at least to learn some wisdom from it but as you sit here today you're a you know as you woke up this morning this is today is in play yeah what are you aiming at today and as we look off into the next sort of two decades of your life what I maybe to a fault don't think about the future what I'm thinking about is here and then I'm like okay well let's zoom out from here I have a show tonight I want to put on a great show we're in London um it's like 6 000 people sold out like I want to put on a great show what is it going to take for me to put on a great show tonight um my family's in town in London like I I just don't think like that yeah yeah and I and I watched my wife who does and other people who do and it's like I have an inability to think a big picture I have an exceptional ability at focusing on the thing that is in front of me and I believe that it probably has to do with ADD and the way that my brain works in the chemistry but it's what it has created a um a work ethic and a focus that you know I can just be in the studio for 14 hours or I can be doing a music video and editing it and just keep going and that's how I got good at my craft was putting in those long long hours where other people be like all right let's go outside and I'm like no it's not done yet let's keep working um but in terms of the next 20 years I don't know I don't know I I'm excited to to Pivot you know I don't think that you know in a decade I'm gonna be like you know I can't wait to play the show tonight I don't know you know we'll see what happens but what I have realized
and and part of this comes from um you know working on my golf clothing company bogey boys which has been so fun such a labor of of love and to be able to design clothes and watch people wear them and you know the the creative process that that has been particularly in covid that's not going to be my only pivot it's just not it doesn't fulfill me in the same way what does fulfill me with actual meaning is is our youth program called The Residency in Seattle and thinking about actually you know getting a permanent spot year long with Staffing where we have a home for the residency that actually is inspiring to me that has meaning that has a lasting potential that's deeper than like what color Polo is this going to be and I think that they can coexist because I do enjoy this as well I love bogey boys I love golf but for the bigger picture what do you want your legacy to be and not for the purpose of ego but like how do you want to leave the greatest impact to make the greatest impact with our precious time on this Earth we don't have much we don't know how much we have left it's finite it could be you know gone tomorrow what can you hang your hat on and be like you know what I took a risk I got uncomfortable I sacrificed I showed up I worked really hard I celebrated the wins I took the losses on the chin and I kept going that's the kind of life I want and it's kind of life I wanted today and it's the same life I want 20 years regardless of where that leads me all those years ago your dad asked you a question at that family get-together he said are you happy all these years later you're sat in this table in London are you happy I think happiness is fleeting and happiness comes and goes I think that what is sustainable is meaning his purpose I'm not going to be happy every day it's gonna go like this in this moment yes I am happy but but in general in in my life right now
am I happy I would say absolutely yes but there's trials and tribulations through it all and what I have what I have found is that those moments of of of being tested of sorrow of betrayal of growth all of those turn into progress if we can use them as medicine if we can accept them as blessings rather than this idea this is one thing I've been thinking about a lot lately is just this idea of like victimhood of mentally going to a place of oh they wronged me or I'm a victim no this is an opportunity this is a blessing that has been put in front of me and how I get to handle it now and show up and it becomes toxic in my mind if I'm thinking of it about what are they doing to me how could they do this just like we're talking about earlier it becomes um medicine when I can show up from a place of I might not know why this is happening but I have faith that I am absolutely at the right place right now and I'm going to show up clean I'm not gonna Escape I am going to be my true self tell the truth even when I don't want to and um and keep it pushing that's what creates meaning and fulfillment and that is what I'm after not momentary happiness there seems to be a real authenticity to your new album Ben and I think I mean maybe that's even evidenced in the choice of the name to some degree because you've called it after yourself um after the name that your parents gave to you and throughout the album I felt a certain sense of I was gonna say I don't give a [ __ ] about like what I'm supposed to be to some degree because it feels like all of you as opposed to just a narrow part of you if that makes sense I don't know absolutely so like because and I I say that in part because I listened to the first record and then I got like six or seven records down and it was just like you hadn't the first record didn't sound like the sick record it was like a
completely different kind of expression so I was thinking it's kind of someone that has kind of just doesn't really give a [ __ ] about what they're supposed to yes make and they're making what they care about maybe that's my assessment of it um how accurate was that what was your thinking going into this and how is this project different to all of the other projects you've I I think that you summed it up beautifully and um I love to be able to do all of that and just like walking in the studio and be like what what is speaking to me today um you know maybe it's a dance song from 1984 maybe it's a you know I'm going through something maybe it's a a pop song Maybe it's like I want to rap you know you know with Primo scratching and it sounds like it's from the 90s like it's whatever Direction I want to go is like I don't want to feel limited like oh but that's not what you do no I I could do whatever I want to do um and you're right in that it's all me like those are all bits and pieces of me and I think for a long time and that's what I've always done kind of so how does it differ I don't know I feel like all maybe there's been a little bitco more cohesion on other albums but for the most part that's what I've always done is those are all those are all facets of my expression and um and I think it's confused people you know because like it you know I'll have homies that are like yo you dropped Heroes and then you came out with this like you know pop song with the music video directed by your daughter like what is going on and I'm like yep that's what I did but doesn't authenticity confuse people anyway because Conformity doesn't convince no you're right Conformity fits yes Conformity fits authenticity doesn't no and they're and they want me to be this version yeah and you know radio wants me to be this version and you know this it's like you're right I mean authenticity confuses people and and and once people can box put it in a box package it be able to point to it that this is this this is that
it makes it a lot easier as an artist to um or as a you know Observer to judge I don't like it because it's this yeah versus like oh [ __ ] he did that but then he did that and I like that but I would never listen you know whatever people are trying to figure it out I'm like I'm just gonna keep making the music that I've always made and um again I have a faith now that it lands where it's supposed to land and that process has been therapeutic for me of just detaching from detaching from the outcome regardless of what it is just like just make it because you love it dude that's all I think that's a super you know powerful lesson an important one that I think everyone without maybe realizing it can actually really relate to I even have that a lot on this show where I will have such a diverse range of guests that on every conversation I have there's a comment saying like get back to interviewing CEOs or why like why is this personal why are you interviewing Sports people or whatever and there was maybe a point where I thought it crossed my mind maybe they're right maybe I should just like stay in my Lane yeah but the authentic me goes I care about so many [ __ ] things right I love sports I love businesses I love music I love psychology so can I just run the experiment of being myself yeah and I refer to it as an experiment because there's a perceived cost running that experiment you don't know the outcome are people just gonna stop listening running that experiment has been most importantly okay it's worked but it's been great for me right as in like I can show up every day and like my life regardless of whether people want to listen I can really enjoy this and that's how I can run this as a marathon opposed to as a Sprint right right like when we can form it's like I've never seen it be sustainable for my guests when they're like wearing a mask for too long I could do this for the rest of my life because I'm big myself do you see what I mean absolutely um we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest not knowing who they're leaving it for
and the question that's been left for you by our previous guest is there someone from your past that you should have a conversation with that you haven't had if so why haven't you had it and what is that conversation hmm that's a great question as my parents get older that there's probably some conversations there particularly with my dad that I I go back and forth on having and uh you know a relationship that I might want with him that I think that there's some fear around maybe he doesn't desire with me and um it's a tricky one with parents it's a tricky with family like having deep conversations around what our relationship looks like or what it looked like growing up or whatever um you know I'm from a family where you know you kind of you smile through it I think there's a reason why I never heard my parents fight I think that there is a um just be happy don't talk about it just be happy and uh that hasn't been my experience on this Earth and I think that at times it's challenged them um and then at a certain point you're like Yo dude you're dead 75 years old like you know he is who he is and but I think if my dad my dad passed tomorrow um I would probably feel like there was just did I really make an effort to connect um on the level that that I intuitively wanted to outside of his reaction to my words I completely relate to that with my own dad yeah I completely relate and I don't know why I've never had the conversation um I don't know what it is is it I don't think he's got the tools I've not got the tools we've not got the tools right
all three yeah oh yeah all three um but you probably do have the tools interesting because you can have I can have the tools with my girlfriend that's what I'm saying well we've like learned together how to do the tools but then I look over at my dad and I go uh We've not figured out how to how to do this together because there's like there you know we go through different there's like a Changing of the Guard almost it's like our parents you know my parents were byproducts of of their parents and these are very different times in Civilization and where we have gotten to in terms of talking about our emotions and and mental health and being able to process masculinity or ego or these things you know going to therapy or going to a 12-step meeting or you know really working on ourselves like my dad's never done any of that internal work because that's not what men did in his generation and you know sure there's exceptions but as a whole um my dad's generation was different and I watched the younger generation from from me and the way that they're fluid and love each other and and gender is a social construct and these walls are getting torn down and I'm like I'm trying to keep up with it and you know I'm having my own moments of just like wait how does this fit and what what is this and I feel old all of a sudden and they're just like don't you get it like this is all fake and I'm and I'm trying to you know so I think that going to to my dad there is a certain level of just communication about emotions that I'm really used to that he's not because he probably never had those conversations with his dad his dad was like in the war and had five kids and like just getting a meal on you know a meal to each one of those five boys in the house was a struggle alone much less trying to talk about how you felt that wasn't part of the day but if he wasn't gonna respond then and you had a chance to say those last words what would those words be irrespective of response or impact or feedback you know what I've come to the conclusion of
is that we're all doing the best that we can do my dad's doing the best that he could do and instead of me because I have a lot of friends that didn't have a dad at all their dad pieced out you know and I think it's easy to particularly when you have kids you have this idea of what your parents are going to be like as grandparents and my grandparents or my parents are great grandparents I want them around more not even for the child care just because I think that family is so important I think that nuclear family is so important I think that we have um you know we we come from like communities where we helped raise children together and you know this porch looked out over to this porch and we had actual tangible um human connection and I I think that I've desired something in my um in having kids and reflecting on my own childhood and what that was like with my parents now that I'm a dad and I'm like oh I didn't do any of this with my dad I didn't do damn what was my life like oh he you know but instead of looking at it like in any way I am a victim because my dad works so much or you know whatever it was it's like my dad was amazing he worked so much and he provided and he sent my eyes to rehab and he sent me to college and he showed up with love and instead of like the opposite of all of that like he's not doing this this this this this I want him to be this this it's like my dad is who he is and um it's made me who I am ensure I desire a closeness that I don't know if we'll ever get to you know we're in an open level of just hanging out being okay with that um telling him how I really feel I don't know if that's important um but
what's preventing me from having that conversation is that it's a hard it's a hard conversation to have family is so layered we're not talking about like a friend I met six years ago we're talking about this person that brought me into this world our DNA the very fabric the our identity this it's a lot there it's a lot there and um I think sometimes I question if how much do you push other people to get outside of their comfort zone I know it's not comfortable it's not comfortable for me it definitely wouldn't be comfortable for him how much do you I mean what's preventing you from talking with your dad at whatever level it is I think it's probably just as to be honest I think it's like I'm gonna say things but I've just not tried in the way that I should have it's just feeling like the bridge to doing that is not there isn't what I mean by is like I don't think he's got the tools yeah and I don't think I've got the tools with him yes I would say I would say exactly the same thing that's what I mean you know because with my goal it's funny in Generations we all seem to be able to do that sideways and down as you said so like we could you could probably have those conversations with your kids and with your kids we do all the time but as you've said when we look up at our parents the generation they came from they didn't do podcasts like this where they think about their feelings and emotions and stuff and mental health and so they didn't learn the tools and it's like can you teach an old dog new tools use on my part because that's what I asked you the question about regardless of how they respond yes if it if you because like my both of our dads aren't going to live forever and what's going to live on after they've gone is it the regret right and I don't want the regrets I don't want the regret either so I just wanna I I'm I need to write a letter also yeah and just send the [ __ ] letter yeah you know what I mean um I guess this is a conversation for
another time because yeah you got a show tonight at Wembley so um I'm gonna let you go but um thank you so much for so many things thank you first and foremost for creating great music that's brought joy to our lives but I think even more important than that music that has helped people in such a profound way not everybody does that Beyond The Views like I think you've clearly come to learn that views are one thing and then impact is a completely different thing and the impact that I just saw in that one video drug dealer is would be profound enough life work for any one individual just in the comments section from what I saw beyond that you've repeated that over and over again and even on your new album Ben within the first paragraph of the first song you're taking me back to your own struggles which I think is as we've described that vulnerability you demonstrate in these conversations in your interviews and your music is the doorway to connection and I don't think you'll ever even see the the extent to which you've allowed people to feel that connection through your music through your art and through these conversations so that's what I want to thank you for and it's an honor to meet you and to get to do this because I'm a fan of your work I'm a fan of the man and I'm a fan of of everything you've touched so thank you so much and thank you so much you're amazing this is incredible and I really appreciate you having me you just you have a light to you that uh it's very impressive and I get it thank you Ben [Music]