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the jurogan experience but yeah these these guys um i attempted for about 10 years through my then organization quilliam to attempt to pretty much has happened to me on the islamist side to attempt to try and soften some of that hard edge of the war how was that met with bush he was charming but of course it wasn't ever going to be bush it was going to be the people around him right what was his perspective on what you're saying the last two years of the bush presidency i think they really began getting to grips with some of this and again that's not a popular thing to say and i remember the time is that those last two years they began realizing that this has to be more of an ideological and intellectual conversation and not a physical war you can't win right right in this war until there was no way anyone was going to win and so they were stuck in this situation was many years deep into the war and realizing that they had done everything that they were trying to avoid we had had that one desert storm war and i think people had come under the impression that if we were to invade a country it would be very quick and very easy yeah we had this very american-centric idea of what would go on in a war and because of that it made us so much more willing to enter into war it's insane it's insane if a foreign army occupied america would you just sit back and let them stay here for ten i mean come on no man worth his salt is going to sit there and watch a foreign army in there if anyone invaded britain i'd be the first to say sign me up where do i join no one is just going to let foreign troops in their land right so but this madness was brought about because back in those days bush didn't even know the difference between sunni and shia muslims right that it was just pure ignorance that the the foreign policy neoconservative machine was hoodwinked by this guy called celebi in iraq who convinced them that if you invade everything's gonna be hunky-dory iraq is gonna blossom into this democracy all that ended up happening is sixty percent of iraq was shia you end up creating a satellite of sphere of influence for iran
because iran is his shia origin country and it ended up having this disproportionate influence in iraq as a result and you end up with a situation today i mean it's a mess when you think back to this man trying to convince the bush administration that everything was going to be fine it was going to blossom into a democracy what do you think was his motivation do you think ultimately he knew that the shia and the sunni would go to battle and there would be a massive conflict and that it would destabilize the region do you think he was aware of that or do you think they were operating on ignorance or do you think they were operating under this premise that they were going to get to control the natural resources and it was worth it financially and they would sort it all out well you know individual intentions aside if you look to cheney if you look to rumsfeld and if you looked at this guy challenging he was from the iraqi national congress and if you look at everything that happened since then and the behavior in iraq and and beyond it's definitely not about bringing democracy now the jew is out for me is it oil is it natural resources is it strategic positioning um it's definitely not what the reason that we were told and it certainly wasn't weapons of mass destruction that was all built on a lie and that's also come out since uh do you think they knew about the lie for sure how many people do you think knew about like when they were broadcasting in on cnn weapons of mass destruction we have to invade iraq who do you think knew i mean that was nice remember yes i'm quite sure he knew he was speaking [ __ ] god that's so hard to believe yeah it's so hard to believe because he's he's so admired and you know when you when you have an example of a man who is a distinguished military career and then goes on to be a distinguished politician he's one of the best examples we've ever had but you remember he was opposed to it for a long time yes and then he gave that one
speech i think it was at the u.n yes and i think that's the point that he he knew what was going he was opposed to it he didn't want to follow this he had a vial of something and then somebody gave him something and then he said all right you know and and i think when he did that that speech yeah i think he knew in his heart something's not right what was the vial what did he have i can't remember but it was used as evidence right yes what we've had since in the uk is an inquiry and they found that tony blair pretty much you know they all knew that something wasn't right with this intelligence they were given and this 15 minutes thing it just wasn't right you know and the guy the guy that exposed it one of our scientists 15 minutes thing that saddam can can uh strike within 15 minutes of it yeah yeah and there's a guy who on particular with the weapons of mass destruction now again caveat saddam is no picnic right yeah i mean the man has gassed his own people he he was he's the iraqi equivalent of mubarak that did what he did to us in egypt and his sons were the most evil i mean look again people think i'm going to defend this isn't about defending it this is true the first the first death in our organization my former group was in iraq one of our members was tortured to death by saddam we were attempting to overthrow saddam too right so this is no favoritism to saddam hussein coming from me what i'm saying is that you don't go in into war based on a lie and this guy called dr kelly in the uk he was the scientist uh from our whatever our defense sector who exposed this lie he turned out dead a couple of weeks later no one knows what happened to him he's dead so it's just all weird right but looking died of what they found him dead in his car i think it's officially suicide whatever who knows yeah i mean i don't know was epstein's suicidal i say no it doesn't look like it does it i get very uncomfortable when people say he did commit suicide it's a bit weird isn't it well i started asking them questions like why do you think that like did you look at the autopsy did you ever hear michael baden speak about it where he talks about like ligature marks at the bottom of his neck which indicate
he was strangled yeah do you did you hear about the bro breaking broken bones rather in his neck yeah like that don't exist normally when people hang themselves they usually are only from someone being strangled yeah there's a desire the camera thing the security guard's conveniently sleeping like there's so much it's all strange but it's in front of everybody's face watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat and you're like holy [ __ ] if the lie is big enough right this is a good one though i mean it's it's quite extraordinary that they were to pull that off they were able to pull that off in front of everyone's eyes well i mean i don't know if they've pulled it off i'm not so sure people deep down really really truly believe that that's i mean everyone i think realizes more than meets the eye with that yeah i think so people don't want to speak about it but it's gone on long enough that i think it's going to be a part of the past yeah and people are just going to go what happened to him who knows what happened to kennedy who knows like i just said with dr kelly right yes who knows who knows but what we have learned from that is that it's easy to manufacture um consent around something that isn't true for foreign policy purposes it was done with iraq and my whole thing was how do we stop that happening again right that's what i was trying to do with with bush with all of them when but when you're way through to cameron what what kind of dialogue did you have with bush in terms of like trying to convince him to take a different approach well he so as i say in his last two years they were listening so i met with um secretary chertoff who founded the homeland security he used to be a judge and we would work very closely with homeland security and that entire group and what happened was if you recall so those last two years then obama got elected and as always just as we felt we will make beginning to make progress i
mean one of my long my bug bears has long been we have to shut guantanamo bay down this idea that that we can throw people in jail for years and years and years over decades with no charge right it started with jihadi prisoners you moved to syria it moved from jihadi prisoners to their wives and their children now so there's just been a jailbreak in syria and isis attempted jailbreak now there's a bit there's a bit of detail to that story that's more interesting than the fact that isis in the first organized attack for many years since the fall of their so-called islamic state um have demonstrated that they've regrouped because they had a full frontal assault on this jail but that's not what interests me and i think that the kurdish forces have retaken it just yesterday what interests me is the detail in this in this little um story and that is that it turns out that there were hundreds of children in this jail children born to isis fighters who nobody wanted to take care of so they threw them in this adult jihadi prison hundreds of children some of whom died in this attempted jailbreak so we've gone from and this is where when the overton window shifts in that way when you think our bush's years if only our value system has shifted so much to a point we are now living with this idea that our states and our allies can throw children in jail for years with some of the most dangerous people on the planet and it went from giardi's in guantanamo to in syria now to their wives and children including by the way western citizens so this jailbreak some of the kids that were killed 16 year olds 17 year olds uh western citizens australians you know and others american as an american kid in the times newspaper and why were there in the prison because they were taken there as kids by their jihadi parents and nobody wants to do no western government credit to america under trump you guys took back all your foreign foreign fighters from isis britain hasn't done so nor have most europeans took back all our foreign fighters who were americans who went to
join isis yeah they're now back in the yeah they're back and you know you bring them back and if there's a crime to answer for you put them on trial but what you haven't done what america hasn't done is say you know what i don't give a damn they might be american but they can stay in syria and even if they're sentenced in syria say they finish their time where do they go right so that's what's happened is nobody so there's camps there are entire camps they're just internship camps concentration camps or intern camps like alhaul campbell hall in syria where there's women and children kids from babies and they're growing up and they're having they're giving birth in these prisons and they're just no one's charged them or convicted them of anything so they're essentially being raised in these prisons they are born and raised in prisons jesus christ now you go from guantanamo to that and i'm going to bring you to another stage right we're talking about the overton window of acceptability shifting we've got a home secretary in the uk right now called pretty patel she then suggested that what do you do with um these boat people that come over from france and they're trying to cross the english channel undocumented migrants they're landing in britain what do you do with them she said i know what we can do with them arrest them and then put them in a camp in rwanda so you've gone from we've gone from arbitrarily interning jihadis to arbitrarily interning their wives and their children to now arbitrarily interning anyone who's undocumented in these camps that's not the kind of world i want to see going forward it's like that movie elysium right yes that's not the kind of world i want to see going forward so this is the kind of thing that i was upset with in that machine and i'm trying to work in the machine to say what you guys are doing is making the problem worse with this kind of behavior power brute force does not fix your problems and these conversations with bush in particular like what was that like how did he respond to this so so
bush was one meeting and after that one meeting i was able to speak to the administration and as i say so for the last two years i felt we felt we were beginning to make progress obama gets in and then they want to reinvent the will and a lot of people when they look at obama they think a great president again i'm not going to mince my words and i don't want anyone to say i see magic is this or that guys i'm you'll understand i didn't even come from this system i wanted to overthrow the whole thing obama and bush together i was anti-democracy full stop so this is not about me supporting bush supposing obama supporting trump supporting anyone i'm looking at this from the outside and seeing what's going wrong vis-a-vis this specific debate yeah and speaking objectively about it regardless of whether you're left-wing or right-wing so obama comes in and this man launches more drone strikes than bush has a kill list which bush never had that is unaccountable that kill list he made including american citizens was not accountable to congress so on the on the physical war side he basically did even more than bush did with his assassinations with his um nsa spying uh with his um military approach to solving problems with his drones more drone strikes than bush ever conducted he just ratcheted up the military side of this and uh we were then when obama became president my work was for a long time ostracized from the obama administration because of this point and then where he should have done something like the rise of isis completely useless so your work was ostracized because you were working towards peace and a less brutal approach and he was conducting drone strikes and they didn't want to hear surveillance they just didn't want to hear they want to hear it and they but they knew your position and did you eventually get to meet with him not him not him wow i met i've met i met hillary clinton i met madden albright but i didn't meet obama did you ever meet anybody they smell like sulfur what any of those people feel like they're evil this is an evil person this is for sure from straight
from hell so um anyway just [ __ ] right now but you met hillary clinton you met george bush who else did you meet inside the organization on the u.s side um madeleine albright secretary chertoff when he was head of the homeland security department was any one group or one administration more open to your ideas well the same thing happened it's usually the case right it takes six years last two years of the obama administration like the last two years of bush they began listening to us and then of course biden sorry trump comes in