Video URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj8ojSVgU9I
What makes me good at my job is also whatmakes me bad at life. This is maybe more than you bargain for Louis do. Our next guest hasinterviewed everyone. Amani Chicken. It's a cathedral of poor. That's a little offensive.You're a very fascinating person. How do you connect with. I'm just so curious about whattakes someone to that place, why people do the things that they do. The question I get asked most often is, howdo you not get angry with some of these people, especially the ones who are sort of spewinghate? If, if people see like your temperature wrestle intimacies from them, that's nevergonna go well. I think also there's some part we thinks maybe other person's got it figuredout, and I haven't. Your former wife said there's nothing realabout you, Jimmy Saville. He also said something about insincerity being your specialty. That'sgood. I'm glad you brought that up, . I remember it vividly. First of all, I neglected my personallife to focus on achieving professional success. The price was paid by those nearest and dearestto me. When did you get that feedback? I saw my relationshipsas a life support system for my kind of work self instead of the other way around sayingto my wife, well, this is what I do. I did a lot of great segments just by being availableat a moment's notice. I just think, oh, this isn't going well. So it became a bit of animpas. Is it something that comes with a cost andis it something you want to. Before this episode starts, I have a smallfavor task from you. Two months ago, 74% of people that watched this channel didn't subscribe.We're now down to 69%. My goal is 50%. So if you've ever liked any of the videos we'veposted, if you like this channel, can you do me a quick favor and hit the subscribebutton? It helps this channel more than you know,and the bigger the channel gets, as you've seen, the bigger the guests get. Thank youand enjoy this episode. Louie, you're a very fascinating person. Thankyou, . And I've, you know, I've, as I've read through your story, I read your autobiographyas well. I was trying to understand what I needed to understand about your earliest experiencesto really understand the man that you are today. Mm-hmm. . The interesting personalityyou have and the trajectory you went and took in your life. So please enlighten me. What, what, what arethe most pertinent things that I need to know about your earliest years to understand you?Oh my goodness. We could, I, I could, I spent two hours answering that question on its own.I dunno how interesting it would be. I'll try and give you a brief answer. I like thelong answers. Oh, do you? Yeah. Well, first of all, my,um, parents are my mom's British. My dad's American. They are both, um, in, in differentrespects. So free thinkers, they, they grew up in the sixties and they embraced aspectsof the counterculture. They regarded their own parents as being in certain respects oflimited and cloistered. And, and, and so my mom joined, uh, VSO volunteerservice overseas to get experience of life in Africa. My dad joined the Peace Corps.He would've been probably enlisted to serve in Vietnam, and he didn't wanna do that, sohe went to teach in Africa as well. And that's where they met. So I was raised, um, I wasborn in Singapore where they were teaching. Uh, my brother was born in, in Uganda where,um, where they were teaching at that time, my older brother, but then we, they settledin London. And, and so growing up I was conscious of, of them as people who, who, who reallyencouraged us to open our minds and maybe, you know, in, in it was sort 99% positive.Like 1% I think. Like a lot of people, you know, people usethis term social justice warriors right? As a form of judgment about overly do gooding.Like there there's an element of, I don't tend to use that term cuz I sort of, it'sbecome, it's been weaponized. But I suppose in a sense my parents were kind of socialjustice warriors. Like they were very much encouraging me tochallenge or us to challenge racism where we saw it to challenge sexism, to be, uh,open to new experiences, not to fall into easy judgements about other cultures and othercountries and other people. And, and, and, and I only say the 1% sometimes that can beinflected with a little bit of a sense of superiority. And I talk a bit about that in my book, Aslight feeling that we weren't really like, quite like other people, you know, other peoplewere maybe not quite as smart or not quite as literary, you know? And I don't, I don't,you know, I strive not to endorse whatever is in me. Remains in me of that I try to unpackand eradicate, but nevertheless, that's the way. Looking back on it, that's something thatI see and pick up on. My dad's a writer, a
novelist. My mom is a, you know, after teaching,uh, my dad became a very successful literary novelist and travel writer. My mom went onto become a radio producer and worked for the BBC World Service, which is, for thosewho don't know, that's the service that broadcasts all over the world. And it's, it's a bit like Radio four, butbroadcast this tiny language. It's extraordinary institution. It sort of represents in someways the best of the bbc. But, um, so I was growing up sort of aware that we, you know,we were a family that loved books and, and loved reading and, you know, we watched TVand listened to pop music and did the normal things. But I think underneath it was a feeling thatto really count in life, um, you should be a literary writer. Like that was, that was.Without me fully maybe acknowledging it that was underneath this thing that you shouldreally, I think still my dad probably feels that, like he's very supportive of me andmy TV making, but he's like, Lou, you thought, have you thought about writing another book? Lou, you, you, you know, you've got time,you've got the talent. You can, I don't, I don't wanna push you into this, but Lou, youknow, you should think about writing a book. That's a great idea for a book. You know,that kind of thing. Anyway, so that all of that was under underlying my attitude to lifethan they sent me off to, um, school, primary school. I'm gonna have to, I mean, you wanted a longanswer. This is maybe more than you bargain for, I suppose alongside that is the, theinfluence of friends and, and, and, you know, I can start the, and, and the, so the countervailingimpulses of growing up in the seventies and eighties in South London and being exposedto funny, creative people and my friendship group. Which who, you know, met some of them hadgone on to work in civilian lives, as, you know, restaurateurs or, or, or, or you know,music, other stuff. But, but Saliently were, uh, Adam Bucks and Joe Cornish and anotherfriend, a Sandler who were super creative. Adam and Joe went on to have their own TVshow, and I was conscious of falling in with a little group, Amelia of, of um, like-mindedkids who were very funny, really into movies, tv. And that was where I suppose I began to feelthat there was, well, you know, I don't wanna o in hindsight, it's tempting to, um, sortof read back, read back what I do now into that. But I just know that, that, that friendshipgroup was very important to me and maybe counteracted some of the more, cuz I was academic. I was, I was, I did really well at school.I feel I could just go on and on. Should I go? Should I keep going? I just listen here.Cause the other part of it was that I was, um, I was quite an anxious child, so I, Iwould, I would, I worried about everything and, uh, I, I would think about things thatwere on the horizon. Like when I was five or six years old, I rememberfixating, you know, there were various things that came and went that really worried me.But one was, um, the idea of mohole dancing, which was a big, I dunno if it's still likein, in state primaries. Um, at that time, Every May holiday like you would do may poledancing. What is that, sorry. It's, it's a, it's, it'sa, it is an old English or maybe British tradition where there's a big pole. I think it's likea fertility, right? , you knows to touch a wicker man about it. You know, it's an enormouskind of ma a pole like maybe like, like a totem pole almost likes a 20 feet high andthen there's ribbons around it. And as children you would skip round it andyou would sort of braid the ribbons together to form nice patterns. And I remember seeingthem doing it in primary school and thinking like, that looks really hard and I'm gonnahave to do that next year and I dunno how I'm gonna do it. And just, I remember beingpreoccupied with how am I gonna learn how to do that? I only mentioned that as an example. Likethere were other things that, just reading before I could read. I remember seeing myolder brother reading and think, I dunno how you do that. And just getting very worriedabout it. So in general, my, I'm someone who is pre, I know everyone worries, but I justfeel as though that. feeling of worry and anxiety was quite a strongbackground note. And sometimes I would control my anxiety, not consciously, but again lookingback by working hard, like by, by by sort of just sort of becoming almost like superfocused on academic work and um, and as a result I did very well in school. And um,you know, like those people who look back and say like, well I was a fuck up in school.
I was the opposite. Like I didn't always,you know, I would get in trouble. Like, and sometimes I was regarded as, especially whenI was younger, 12, 13 as a disruptive element cuz I was also quite cheeky and sometimestried to com communicate and connect with people via teasing. Right. Which is, I don'tknow if that's a common, it's quite a British thing in a way. It's certainly a big thing in my family was.What's now called bans. Right. And sometimes I try and do bans with my teacher and thenit wouldn't go well. And so, but, but in general, which is confusing, like regarding being regardedas a black sheep in class or a disruptive person in class. And then, um, but then alsogetting in trouble. They said like, it's fine for you to messabout and get in trouble and then you do the homework and you are fine, but you're a badinfluence on the other kids. I used to get told that you're a bad influence on your,I was like, that's not true at all. Like if anything, my friends were just as naughtyand were leading me astray, but nevertheless, because I could sort of go home and then becomesort of organized and focused on my work, I got a, I got for a brief period, I got labeledas the troublemaker. Anyway, going through school, I, I sort of,Sort the, the load stars for my, um, so sense of who I was and how I would progress in life,such as it is. I mean, I was never that tactical, but as I went, as I went through school, Ithought, well, I'm, I'm pretty good academically. I guess I'll just do well in exams and stuffand then see what happens. And meanwhile with my friends, we'd be seeingmovies. I got into rap music in the late eighties, and so we were dressed like a sort of hiphopnerd. I was smoking quite a lot of weed, but still studying. This was sort of, again, age16, 17, but it never really interfered with my, with my work. I went on to Oxford andthen having done well at Oxford, um, left university and, and at that point was like,well, what happens now? That was when it felt like, okay, now I'veno longer really got a clear path. Does that make sense? Yeah. You know, I think if you.If you are, if you're academic, if you find academic work, not easy, but you find thatyou do well at it, cuz it's not easy, but you apply yourself and you do well at, thensometimes life can be a weird, um, bump in the road, like real life. It's something like, well, where are the exams?Because I know I can do those, you know, what do I do now? So for a while I thought maybeI would be like a professor or an academic or something, but then something in me toldme that wasn't quite right. So then the rest of life is another story. But I hope thatsort of answers your questions about those different, um, those different, uh, sort ofsources of, of how I, you know, whatever it's personality and interests. One of the things that really stood out tome in that answer was your, your early relationship with work. You said you used to work hardto kind of suppress or kind of distract yourself from the anxiety of life. Is that accurate?Well, what it is, is, um, Well, I, I worried about things in general and um, you know,one of those worries was homework or doing well in, in, in school. Another worry was getting on with my peergroup. But, uh, in so far as I can, I could control those sources of anxiety. Like, youknow, I work is actually relatively straightforward, like in terms of like, how do I get more,you know, how do I attempt to relate to people better? Well, that's, that's kind of hard. It's like mysterious. But how do I do wellat these assignments I'm being given? Um, then you just sit down and do them, um, untilyou get it right. And, and you know, a lot of these things are. Aren't are subconscious.Like I'm not thinking like, oh, how can I control my anxiety? But I would just findthat I, I I, if, if exams were coming up, I'd get super anxious. And, um, and I don't mean to pathologize it,like I've never been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder. I've just slightly worry prone.And as it happens, I've become less worry prone as I've grown up. And it may be thatthere were other things going on, you know, in my family life, who knows. Um, in, in,you know, my parents' marriage wasn't always happy. They subsequently divorced. There were otherthings that probably were going on that were stressful, but for whatever reason I foundthat, or without, almost without meaning to, I, I would, I took my studies, uh, very seriously.I have to sort of slightly check myself when I say this cause I do, I'm also aware thatI've looked back at some of my reports having kind of got quite attached to this narrativeof myself. A sort of super swat, right? Super studious.And I've looked at some of my old report cards
and some of them are, are, especially whenI'm six or seven, sort of say, um, you know, Louis's a pleasure to have in class, but Isometimes it would be nice if he would let other pupils speak. He, he, he enjoys thesound of his own voice kind of thing, which is very apropo for this podcast. Probably , you know, and like, so, so I, I,I had a sort of rambunctious side and almost in social settings, my mum tells a story essentiallyin my book, but of, of how, when I was about five or six, I would come home, I'd be reallysad, I'd be like, I don't know, I don't think I don't like school anymore. And she'd sortof think, well, Louis's obviously not getting on well at school. I need to talk to his teacher. And she wentinto to class and um, and talked to the teachers and said, do you understand Louis's very sensitive.He's a very sensitive young man. As I said, I would've been maybe five or six, seven yearsold. And the teachers were like, really? Yes, he's a very sensitive, like, just be mindfulthat, you know, things you can say might hurt his feelings. Something like that. And they were like strugglingto recognize her description of me. And then on the way out of class, she passed the classroom,could see through one of the glass windows in the door, and I was running along the desktops or doing a dance on top of a desk. In other words, like it was almost like in thesetting itself, I was a wild child and, and she running a muck. But also I had like this doubling like, thenI go home and be kind of be, be worrying about small, which I think is probably still trueof me in some ways that I have a, um, I have that sort of disruptive trickster impulsealongside certain, um, a certain sensitivity. Is that defense mechanism or a a a way to,I don't know, survive in a social setting or is that the true you Are I just who I amand I think, you know, I could say, oh, well I was a younger child and. my parents found me funny and I, I wantedto perform and I, I wanted my dad to, you know, I wanted to get my, the approval ofmy parents by being silly. But the fact is, is who knows? Like, I just know that, youknow, things like your sense of humor or your inclination to, to be cheeky. That's justalways been in me, you know? And, you know, I'm slightly wary of attemptingto, to sort of, um, unpick where that comes from, because I just know that's, that's,that's always been in. The relationship with work. I, I think even for myself, I, I learnedmy relationship with work at a very young age and I've, I think I developed quite anunhealthy relationship with work at the expense of other things that matter in life. Yeah, me too. I think I can relate to that.And that's what I was trying to understand is like, when did you, where did your relationshipwith work come from? On one hand I was guessing maybe it's from his father who was very, youknow, insistent on being an intellectual. Is a, is success Louis or is it from the distractionof, from anxiety and from the social thing where you could be successful at exams? Cause you were good at that, so you doubledown. I think it was all of the above. Like my dad's got, both my parents have work ethicsthat border on the sort of being over the top. My dad, uh, would, you know, he's a,he's a, as I said, he's a writer and at the weekend, Like, he didn't really take weekendsoff. Like certainly Saturdays he would often bewriting and Sunday mornings he was often writing and, and he, he's an extra. I wanted to giveboth my parents a shout out. See, I'm, my parents were, um, were basically first generationuniversity educated, came from very much not at the high table of life. And, and so formy dad to, to sort of become a wealthy literary writer, it's kind of an amazing thing thathe did, you know, in the world of, you know, it's one thing to be a popular novelist, that'shard anyway. To be a, a, a novelist or travel writer who'sextremely successful, hadn't, you know, sold hundreds of thousands or millions of booksjust, uh, without any leg up in life is an amazing thing. And, um, I wonder if I've evertold him that. I hope I have. Anyway, he'll listen to this probably cuz he, he followsmy, he follows my career with interest. So some of that I would've taken on boardjust through osmosis of seeing that. Likewise, um, my mom being super studious, going toOxford, she grew up in Tooting, you know, and, and her, her sense of self belief, orher sense of her own destiny, whatever it was. And in her small, you know, peer groupof kids who were educated at a state school and then through her own hard work and thesupport of her teachers going to Oxford, you know, in the sixties as a woman, that wasextremely unusual. So that, that was in the air. But in the end,and, and my older brother, who was very studious.
And the other thing just to reflect on isthat I saw my brother as the more brilliant child like he was to, to, the way I saw itat the time was more effortlessly. Brilliant, like sort of child prodigy material, you know? And I thought I was just kind of a sort ofirrelevant bit of after birth that, you know, trailed around after him. And so when I noticedthat I was getting fairly good results, um, when I sort of 11, 12, it didn't feel particularlyimpressive. Like, it felt like, well, I guess I could, I can do well if I work hard. It's not like I'm kind of brilliant like myolder brother. Um, but I think when I, you know, again, in hindsight I think mainly whatI see is, um, is a sense that I just felt like this was something I had to do. It wasn'ta choice. And I even later on when I was at university, I sometimes used to worry that,um, I wonder if I'm missing out. You know, people say it's the best years ofyour life and you should be hang, you should be just. Going wild, having fun. And I dida, you know, some of that, but I was also conscious of like, maybe I'm missing out byworking, by studying too hard. That's what I read in, into your story of university wasthat I wrote, I actually wrote in my notes, worked his ass off at Oxford on the pointof affection. This is also something I probably didn't learnfrom my parents. If I'm honest. I still call my parents by their first names. Um, did theyencourage you to do that? Yes. Yeah. Oh, I just didn't, I didn't learn affection andactually, you know, even growing up at 10 years old when one of my friends turned tome and went, you're my best friend, my body like, Because the, the idea that's I was someone'sbest friend made me cringe. And I had this, I think I had this like emotionalintimacy affection issue growing up. Although I think being a best friend is something youshow, but don't say, yeah, , it's a bit creepy. You're my best friend. Yeah. I remember feelingstressed when a friend said that to me and, and thinking, uh, because you then you feellike, you say, oh, you are my best friend. And then it feels a bit inauthentic. Yeah,yeah, yeah. Yes. You're like, do it. Don't say it . You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.I love you. It didn't feel necessary to say on Yeah, exactly. But, but what, what is,what did you learn about affection at a young age? I, I feel really lucky that my parents,um, I feel as though they were, you know, they, they worked hard. Like I had a working mom. My dad was, as Isay, had a huge. Drive to be successful, but I, I always felt like the love that they hadfor me was just taken as red. Like, I, I never questioned it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah,yeah, yeah. In a way that felt positive. And even though, you know, I think there's a tendencyor a temptation nowadays to look back and, and be thinking about things that could havebeen otherwise. And I think, you know, parts of that therapyculture are really valid, but there's also a sense in which, um, you can focus on negativestuff. And I'm not sure at a certain point how, how healthy or helpful it is. And, and,and so for me, I, I never kind of questioned like the love, the love that they, they hadfor me. And I, it was, it was never the case thatI felt I was kind of, um, seeking their approval. Like I remember friends at school saying,well, my. . My parents say if I do well in common entrance, they're gonna get me a watch.And I remember thinking, that's quite weird, you know, or my, my parents never, I neverfelt like they needed to be I, that I was in any sense doing like working hard for them. And if they took an interest, that was kindof a bonus. But I didn't rush to show them like I got all A's, or you know, I was, Icame first in all the exams or whatever. I wouldn't really talk to them about it. Likethat was just something that I did for me. What about emotional expression? I think that'ssomething that we learn how to say, like, I love you. And to hug and to be, to touch and, uh, causeyou said bounce, you said? Yeah, like I've my. humor is really important. I say sucha kind of what though? Cause that's so dead. It's cringe. I mean, have my kids voices inmy head. But, you know, humor is a very important way of communicating. You know, humor is really,I often think, you know, in terms of how I see life, that's why worrying, I sound a bithumorous, but anyway, how I see life is like, humor is like the, the missing dimension interms of, it's almost, it can't really be expressed. But my, uh, we, we shared a sense of humoras, as a family. And so we would make each other laugh. And so teasing was important.Wouldn't, it'll, um, just not taking yourself too seriously. My parents. Well, I would say,um, like I respected them, I would've, I see how my kids behave towards me and I'm thatclassic thing of like, God, if I did that
to my parents, that would not have gone well. It's not that I think of them being especiallystrict. I didn't feel they were at the time, but I wouldn't have dared to. Um, I, I don'tknow, like there there was a sense of of of them having boundaries that I would respectand observe mean. They, they slight also, they slightly cheated because we went to boardingschool, me and my brother, age 13. So those difficult teenage years of sort of13 to 18 or 13 to 17, they were part timing it. And if mom and dad, if you're listening,I'm sorry about, that's what it is, right? They, I mean it was weekly boarding and theygot me in the holidays, but other than that, they were getting me half of Saturday andSunday. So I've got kids who are teenagers and. Youknow that that's where like the, the, a lot of the conflict kicks in. So, uh, when I lookback at how I related to my parents, there were, there were times when, um, it felt likethey didn't get me or they were being too hard on me, or the mixed messages becausethey were sort of on one hand being free spirited and saying like, if you wanna smoke some splitLouis, like, that's fine, just be careful you don't get caught, like, kind of thing. Or other times you'd be like, how dare you,you're going out there, you know, what, what are you doing? Like, it was like, well, whichpart of the, are we being, are you being counter-cultural kind of dudes or are you gonna be like Victorianparents? Like, which is it? But in general, um, I, I kind of, I kind of got it. I kind of got, I got, I kind of got the, um,you know, that it was about, there was a foundation of love and approval that was, you know, itwas unconditional. And, and, and I think if I had anything, to sort of, and to sort ofreflect, reflect on approach them for, not reproach, but sort of reflect on things thatin hindsight could have been different. It's the feeling that because they were workfocused and also because their relationship was complicated, sometimes it felt like, um,that me and my brother and I were slightly a si a side effect. Like we weren't, and again,I could spin that as a positive actually. Like there was a sort of a level of us beingautonomous. You know, we had whatever the opposite helicopterparents is. They, we, we slightly had that. Like, they were like, okay, cool. You know,you do, you, and, and, and, um, and I think again, that can be, I, I kind of quite gratefulin some ways for that, but. You know, they had their own thing going on. It reminds meof something Tim Grover said, which I've repeated a few times. He says he used to train Michael Jordan anduh, Kobe Bryant. And he, I spoke to him on this podcast when we did the LA Run and hesaid that sometimes an event that happens in our life or something that happens cancreate our brilliance. Mm-hmm. , it can be responsible. In the case of that kind of voidof independence your parents create, creates someone that works and that goes and getsstuff and that's able to travel and be an island. Um, but it also can create our dark side.Mm-hmm. like the same event creates our brilliance, but also our dark side. So my question toyou is from that particular experience of having that independence and feeling a bitlike you were a side thing in their lives, what was then the, the dark side? I can seethe upside. I can, what's the upside? For me it felt likethe upside you were saying is the independence you had. Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's right.Yeah. Yeah. That being the space to grow and become your own person and not feel that you'reespecially kicking against. Anything but licensed to follow your own interest. I think that's all positive. I think, um,uh, what is the look? I think in general, what, you know, I've said this and probablysomeone else said it as well, like that, you know, what you think maybe your disabilityis also your superpower. Exactly. And I think, um, uh, I think that I, in, I think I've struggledwith intimacy sometimes. My, you know, and, and I think I, you know,in terms of relationship building in, in my private life, like it's a running joke betweenme and my wife, like that she's extremely sort of emotionally acute and that I'm slightlythe opposite, which is kinda weird when you think about my job, which hinges on. Uh, supposedlybeing sort of maybe emotionally or psychologically perceptive, but it is almost as though, butI see in my mum as well, like my mom having worked at the bbc, went into, um, therapyand became a relationship counselor. And it's funny because, um, my mum also findsit difficult sometimes to, to fully inhabit her, her emotions if it doesn't sound an oddthing to say. And, and I, I'm gonna probably regret saying that, but let's make it aboutme. And I think with me, I think, um, yeah, I don't always find intimacy easy. Like it's,it, it, it's so, so, so I sort of, I, I experience
like a lot of the times my work. Is a license to be intimate without consequences.Like to get to, to a bit like what you are doing now. Like you talk to people, someonein a prison, you know, who's been sentenced to 10 life sentences, he's like, okay, howdoes that feel? So what is, what's life like? And, and then kind of get getting or whateverhappens to be. All the work I've done in some sense is aboutattempting to peel layers back and, and, and see inside someone's psyche and then get ona plane and fly off and go home and live my normal life almost at a, a less intimate planeof existence. And, um, so clearly, you know, and the other joke I've made over the yearsis like, oh, what makes me good at my job is also what makes me bad at life. So, so for me it's, I think, and I think ifyou ask my friends, they might say, you know, be like, oh yeah. You know, Louis's a goodguy. I hope they would say that, but, but they'd also might say like, he's a littlebit absent. Like he's a little bit, um, I, I don't feel I'm an especially attentive orpresent friend and, and, and you know, I'm not, you know, some people are really giftedat friendship. Oh God. They like really get, they're thereand they think about and they make arrangements. And I don't make really, I'm, I'm not verygood at social arrangements. All these sort of boring things that are the qualities thatare really the stuff of life. Like, um, just getting together, reaching out. Are you okay? How's, it's been a while since I saw you.I wanted to, let's meet up, let's, which in general, this is a crush generalization, butI think women are slightly better at than men. And I think that's been one of the manygifts my wife has given me is actually involving me in life. Like in a, just a normal. So neurotypicalway, whereas I, my tendency would be to sort of disappear into my slightly in cell-likeshell, you know, of, of kind of in a metaphorical shed of kind of counting. I, the joke in making my book is like, youknow, separating my collection of screws and nails into their different jars. You knowwhat I mean? Like that for me is like that, you know, a lot of guys would be like, yeah,that sounds like heaven to have two hours to organize my shed, you know, and not, andnot realize that you're missing out on the tapestry of life. So I plead guilty to whatever that is. Maybethat's just being a man I can, I can relate to. It's funny, I was having this conversationyesterday with my friends where they were all saying, yeah, Steve doesn't like to socialize.You know, I, I would rather sit upstairs for seven days on my own working than, like, someonesaid to me, this, you meet all these wonderful people in this podcast, and you, and it'ssuch a wasted opportunity that you don't text me, Hey, let's go for a coffee. Yeah. And it's just outside of my nature.My nature is to sit alone on my laptop and work. Yeah. And so again, my girlfriend, mypartner is the opposite. Yeah. So she's dragging me. And so I really, I think it's quite acommon dynamic, you know, not bragging. Two nights ago I was a GQ man of the year. I see. Thank you. Applause. Thank you. Um, uh, Iwas one of the honorees and, um, so there was a, like, there was a, a banquet, likea, a posh dinner catered by Heston Blumenthal. And, you know, stormy was gonna be there.Mo Sal, Leah Williamson, the footballer. I didn't get an invite. I must have. So it'snot just men now, it turns out, uh, extraordinary list of like Andrew Garfield, an extraordinarylist of incredible people. And it wasn't even an awards bank. It wasn'teven like the bs, like where you sit and sit through the speeches and then at half past10, when you're starving, hungry and quite tired, you sit down, eat your food. This waslike a banquet. Banquet where you just sit around and have a delicious meal and thena few people pop up and say a few words between starter and the main course. So it was like, and it wasn't even that, itwas like maybe a couple hundred people, like quite small as these things go. But the pointis, is before on the evening of, I was like, I don't wanna go. And I said to, I knew Ihad to go, but I said to Nancy, my wife, I was like, I am not feeling this. She's like,what is it? I said, I just, I can't. You know, I dunno,I just feel really anxious. And she's like, but you're not even giving a speech, are you?You know, cuz sometimes it's that like, what if we win and I have to give a speech? Or,or you're worrying about whether you're gonna win. It's like, I knew I was an honoree andI knew I wasn't gonna say any, I wasn't gonna have to give a speech. And it was just the idea of, of having totalk to people, like in a relatively high
wa high wattage setting. So you think like,I don't wanna be wandering around like a blithering idiot. So there's a sort of little stressthat sits alongside that. But there was no real reason on paper why I shouldn't havebeen thinking, well this is gonna be amazing. This is gonna be a night. I remember my wholelife, you know, and I attempted to adjust my mindset, you know, using kind of Paul McKennalike, or Uri like, you know, just visual. Like, think about what this is. This is gonnabe, no one's expecting anything of you. This is a chance to sit down with some amazingpeople and have fun. But nevertheless, for the first kind of hourI was there, just thinking. I kept just saying, oh, and Nancy were like, what's the matter?So I think that's just for what I think that's in me. It's probably in a lot, a lot of people.And, um, you just deal with it. But, you know, why, why should that be the case? I, I don'treally know why. Is it something that comes with a cost andis it something you want to change? Uh, if you're being really honest, if I could dialdown, I think sometimes I think I have changed. It actually is the first thing to say, becausethere were times in my life where I said no to things just because I thought that's gonnabe a bit like, you know, I did the maple dancing in the end and it went fine. I did learn, this will surprise you. But Idid learn how to read and, you know, despite all the anxiety I had about doing that. Andso, and then as life went on, I think there were times when I said no to things, opportunities,which probably just because the idea I, I was asked to go on David Letterman's. Chat show. Um, when it was on cbs, this would'vebeen in around 2001. And I said, no, cuz I thought that's just gonna make me anxious.And looking back on it, I probably wish I'd done that. Why would that, why would thatmake you anxious? I find the chat show experience, or, or not, especially, I mean, I've doneit a few times and as life goes on, it seems, you know, the idea of public speaking or,you know, when I first got into tv, it, it was like, why am I doing this? This is not me. Like, this is not what I wascut out for. This is not something that I aspired to do. And it sounds really, you know,the whole notion of it feels, um, intimidating and, and, and just a bad fit. And, and nevertheless,I knew that, you know, just briefly, like I was working magazines as a, um, as a journalistin New York and, um, That's, I, I, I aspired to be a, a TV writer, partly as a way of sortof avoiding comparison with my dad. Not directly, but I suppose that was in mymind was like, I wanna write and be creative, but I know I'll never write books. You know,I didn't feel like I wrote, when I wrote it didn't feel, especially as though it cameas easily as I, as it should, you know, it's hard when your dad, like, I relate to peoplewith famous parents, like, you know, people like, you know Jacob Dylan? Yeah. Who's Bob Dylan's son. I dunno why Ireached for that comparison, but Jacob Dylan, that track one headlight. Do you rememberthat one? No. Okay. For people who know, they know , you know, it's a great track. It wasa huge international hit, but his dad's Bob Dylan. That's a painful, maybe not painful,but that's an extraordinary. Legacy to be born into and in a, in a relatedway, like I was conscious of my dad, his name as a writer really meant something. And thatit was, um, that if I was to attempt to write something, it was gonna be a case of verylikely kind of falling short, at least in my own mind. But the idea of writing in televisionwas, was less, I felt would set, would, wouldn't invite the same comparisons. Plus, I used to watch TV and I like tv andthere was something about the democratic kind of nature of television, in fact, that everyonewatches tv. I thought, well, that's a way of working in a medium that will connect withpeople. And so it was in the mid nineties. TV was, uh, in a kind of a mini golden age. The Simpsons was on, Seinfeld was on, friends,was just about to come on the, there were all these amazing. TV shows. Larry Sanderswas another one. Did you want to connect with people you studied history at Oxford? Yeah.And as someone that is, appears to be a bit of an introvert by nature from what you saidabout your experiences. I've got double. I have a duality where I'mpartly shy, introverted, and then partly outgoing and extrovert. So with your writing and withthe TV writing was your, and with the magazine writing, I know you did some stent at, um,spy and was it Metro in Boston? Metro In San Jose. In San Jose. San Jose, California. Was your, was your objective and the, thething that you found fulfillment in your work from, was that connecting with people? Um,or was it just, I don't, I think I connected with people not to sound, um, you know, oxymoronicor whatever it is. No Tologist by connecting
with people, like, in other words, like Ialways find. I do my best. Connecting sounds a bit weird.Yeah. Face to face. I mean, maybe at one level, but in the end I think I was just trying todo good work and get approval. Like maybe more than connection, like just trying tosort of get an A at work. Do you know what I mean? Like, so I would feel good and thinklike, oh, I got 10 outta 10 on my article or on my piece of writing my, my film review. And then if people said to me that was reallygood, that was like getting a, you know, like you got a good review or whatever. You know,people, people say like, you, you did a good job. Then it, it was maybe a way of, um, itjust a little, it's just a little, uh, spurt of whatever that is. Like, just kind of pleasure,you know, you just worthiness a worth, feeling worth, you know? I don't want, I, I think I've got a healthy,relatively healthy sense of self-esteem, but nevertheless, I, I think I, I, I, I, whetherI require it, I enjoy. , you know, getting, I got a, I got a series out at the moment.This isn't my attempt to segue into the promotional portion of this interview, but nevertheless,here we are. I got a, um, I've got a series out at themoment on iPlayer called Louis through interviews and we had one that went out a few days agowhere I interviewed Bear Grills an alumness of this very podcast. I listened to your interviewwith him, by the way. Thank you. In preparation and, um, and when it went out, for whateverreason, I think, cuz I thought it was a good show and I hoped it would, I hoped it wouldget a good reception. I was on. Um, I thought I'm gonna go on Twitterand see what people were saying and it was surprisingly quiet and then I felt a bit like,um, okay, now I'm going to, I'll try at Louis through, I'll try hashtag Bear Grill. I trieda few different search terms and then I suddenly I had a vision of my, you know, you get avision of yourself like, Oh, while I've become that grubby guy, kind of like, it's so ofsad. It's like trying to fish for fish for approvalin the vast swamp of the Twitter verse, right. Casting my line and nothing much is comingback. And I thought, well, and then one that came back, I looked at it and said, just watchedLouis through's interview with beg rules. Wow. It was hella boring, . And I was like,I just caught a boot And then I was like, well, that's what youget. And by the way, it isn't boring. No, it's not boring. The point I was trying toget to was, um, then couple days later I got a review, great review in the Times, justsort of pointing all the things about it that I knew to be really, really good. It was sortof the perfect review, you know, rave saying like, this is fresh, it's new, it's different,it's fun, it's entertaining, it's revealing. And I felt really good. And on one level Iwas like, Because before that, the first three episodes, I hadn't really checked Twitter.I thought, I don't, I'm not that guy anymore. I don't really care. Like I make the showsand I know they're good. And the ones that aren't good, I know none of these is, is aclunker. They're all solid. And, and then here, andthen I suddenly thought, oh, I went back to, I regressed into being the needy sort of,um, the needy, insecure person, which is, you know, and, and that guy is always there,by the way. I think a lot of people could probably relate to that, which doesn't, itdoesn't mean, you know, which, which is, um, which is fine by the way. But I suppose to, to your point, um, or, youknow, in all the kind of work in the work I do is not like, is it an urge to connect?Like it's an urge to do good work, and then it's nice for that to be recognized. And asmuch as I, I could, I'd like to pretend. I don't really care whether people like it ornot. I do care. Actually, do you know what's funny is my teamare very honest with me and we're in the car the other day and I believe it was Holly.Holly and my team who might be upstairs now, and I said, um, we were talking about yourLouis's coming on the podcast. I said, oh, he's got the new series out where he interviewspeople. And I turned to, I think it was Holly, itmight be someone else. So sorry if it's someone else. Um, I turned to them and said, how isit? Because they'd seen it before me and they went, it's actually really good. Oh, nice.That's what they said to me. And they would be, and they would be so honest with me. Theywent, it's actually really good. And then they explained why it good causeme, here's my thing like that actually, like, isn't it, it's actually like, it's actuallyreally good. But see when I, because I've, I'm a very glass half empty kind of guy withrespect to praise. Yeah. So what I'm hearing there is it's action surprising. Yeah. I'mhearing like, cuz I'm hearing is that a surprisingly, in which case, why would that be surprising?
I can, I think I can assert white would besurprising. Um, I think that, The generation Holly's in. Mm-hmm. , they don't watch, um,shows like that on BBC one, typically. Mm-hmm. . And so BBC two, but BBC two, sorry, on thebbc should I say. Yeah. Um, but that's what I got from it is her generation who are like22, 23, who spend a lot of time on like TikTok and Instagram and these other platforms. I think, um, it was, I was actually quitesurprised. That's fine. And I think that's probably true. And also I think in my world,if I'm gonna talk about stuff, you know, we, there's a troll in all of us, right. And,and, and in general it's more enjoyable to talk about stuff and dunk on stuff becauseit's shit. Right. Like, and that sounds horrible. I'mslightly oversimplifying. I think you're right. There's a lot, especially in the, in the journalisticor in, in, so the media village, it's like, did you see it? Nah. Yeah. That was rubbish,wasn't it? And there's a sort of reassuring feeling of like, yeah, yeah. Let's all, let'sall give it a kicking. Yeah. So, so when you acknowledge that something'sgood, you're almost saying like, I'm going grudgingly acknowledge that. That was good.Yeah, I think you're correct. You know, that's a bit of that. Yeah. Yeah. I think prettymuch everything, especially when, cuz we probably consider ourselves working in the media industry. Sure. So for the team to go, it's actuallyreally good. Yeah. Um, and then she went on to explain to most things aren't that good?They're not, I mean, most things are fine. Yeah. But most things are like only aboutas good as they need to be. Do you know what I mean? Especially in the interview format.Like how many other ways can you create an interview format that is original and inspiring. And that's also what I got from her was like,she was talking to me about the way the format was constructed. Yeah. I think we pushed thingsforward a little bit. Like it's not a paradigm shift. Like we haven't completely flippedthe script as they used to say in hip hop circles. But it is, you know, we, we workedon the grammar. We tried to do things a little differently.So we created a, for one of a better term format, you know, that allowed for. Elementsof, um, actuality just being silly, having fun or being in live settings where the unexpectedcould happen, but also bits of, um, uh, conversation that would be going to places that were quitedeep. So, yeah, thank you for that. And that, thatthat's, that's, thank you for paring that one TV I, I read when you were 18, I thinkmaybe 16, um, if someone had said to you that you would end up in tv, you would've, youwould've been sort of perplexed at how that would've, the steps that it would've takento get you down. Yeah, that's definitely true. You, you arein San Jose, I believe at the time. Um, is that where SPY was? The magazine? No, I wasthat Boston Rewind. Just to rewind, and I also wanna mention one other thing, whichis, cuz we talked a little bit about studying and, and I feel as though whatever that is,that work ethic has stood me in good stead, but I don't feel that that's, I often thinkthere's. A very understandable, sort misconceptionabout the level of importance of, of academic work. You know, that whole staying schoolkids and, you know, we were talking, I think, off, off mic about Mr. Beast, the YouTuberand, you know, the media landscape we're in now. It, it would just, it's just simply notcorrect to say that, oh, the path lies through academic work. Right. And I was talking to my cousin, JustinThru, oddly enough, he says, Thoreau, who's an actor, he's a director, uh, a writer. Hewrote Tropic Thunder, iron Man Two, he's been, he's also like high profile Hollywood actor.I interviewed him for my podcast. I'm not trying to plug, that'll be weird to plug onepodcast on another podcast. But he, and he, he was like someone who struggledin the academic setting. Like he, he had adhd. He. Flunked out of a school. He went to anotherschool where they recognized his special needs. But the point is that I sort of think so manyas I think we undervalue, there's a tendency to undervalue those parts of, of, um, of lifethat that lead to success, that that exists. I mean maybe you, maybe I'm sort of out ofline here cause it sounds like you are all over this, but those parts of like, the partsof life that helped me become whoever I am part of its academic part of its, was almostinimical to academic success. It was the part that was free spirited and naughty, and thatwas bunking off school and seeing movies and, and, um, or, or getting me in trouble and,and, and, Whatever that is, and it's hard to really bottle it and know quite what itis. You know, there, there is something that Istruggle sometimes with over discipline, right? And, and or a sense of like doing well incontrolled settings. But actually it's that
you need the yin and the yang of both. And,and when I went out and did stuff that was successful on tv, like working, doing my firstsegments at a show called TV Nation, having been hired by Michael Moore when I was 23,partly like a work ethic, you know, doing preparation and being, you know, turning upon time, as they say is like 90%. Of the battle, but actually then being justsort of allowing those creative juices sort of to, to, you know, whatever that mysteriousquality of, um, humor and connectivity, just being silly and disruptive, like those arereally valuable. They say don't, they, they say conformity is great to succeed in school,but it's not great to succeed in life. There's, maybe that's what it is. You kindof need to be to conform once you get out, you sort of do. And I think, and, and I wannacome back to your question, but, but I do think that that's also, you know, three, fouryears ago I started a company and there's a part of me that's overly. So overly conventional,you know, and, and as a result seeks out unconvention in my work. And that's positive, you know, it means like,I love spending time with people who feel like they give free reign to the darkest,weirdest impulses that I think to an extent we all share, but keep repressed, you know,whatever those happen to be. People involved in sex work or, or, or people involved inreligious cults or, or hate groups. And, and that, that's sort my stock in tradeis talking to those people. Cuz I feel as though I kind of get it. Like, I, I understandthat those, that, that's part of the full compliment, as horrible as it might soundto say, like, we all have like unacknowledged and secret, um, impulses that, you know, we,we have sort of civilized, uh, uh, in, you know, and, and, And repressed into, into,you know, we've inhibited them into our souls so that we can function and, and not go tobe sent to prison or whatever, be canceled. But, um, for me, like I, I, I sort of, I,I do it to a fault, to the point where I worked at the BBC in-house, in BBC Studios, justcuz I sort of liked the idea of the structure. Like, I'm a company man going to the factoryand, you know, building my tv. programs but not owning them. And cuz I just thought, youknow, and I like going to the can, I used to love working at TV Center cuz it felt likegoing to the factory and then eating at the TV center canteen. You know, it just felt, felt like comfortable.You know, my, my granddad worked at the London Water Board his whole life. He had one jobthat he started when he was 18 and, and finished when he was, whenever 65. You know, to someextent those were the times. But that temperament is slightly in me the whole time. When, when, when he left, they gave him, um,some, a box of cutlery, you know, that was the, you know, you worked here for 47 yearshere. Here's your silver, your silverware in a walnut case. And it was on a, it wasin private place, like not pride of play, it wasn't on the mantle piece. But you, youused, we used to look at it. That's what grandpa got when he'd worked atthe Metropolitan Water Board for 47 years. You know, you sort of reverence it. Like,and it was only used for special occasions. And, and there's a little bit of that in me.And so when I finally. Went outside the BBC and set up a company three or four years ago. I'm sure most of your listeners probably havetheir own, although many of them, not most, but many of them will have their own companiesor will be fully cognizant of what it takes to make it in the sort of the world of, of,of free market and entrepreneurship. But for me, that was just absolutely not my lane andit was my wife who pushed me to do it. And so that was a case of me needing to breakout of whatever I was doing and say, do you know what? Whatever you think that is riskyor mysterious, or, um, you know, a bit a spy, you know, like just a little bit of judgment.Like, oh, I don't wanna be one of the YPI guys. Like we just had an ipo. I've just gotmy first Maserati like that cuz I, I'm Antagon, you know, I've complete that, that whole mindset. I feel like I'm alienating maybe some of yourlisteners. Like, it's not my mindset, like I'm just like, I, I almost valorize the oppositeof that. You know, to an probably, um, an extent that's sort faintly unhealthy. Like,like I don't want be the guy, I don't want a flash car. I don't want flash clothes, Idon't want anything. I wanna be anti flash. Right? Like my watch,you can see this. My wife was saying to me last night, um, you know, maybe time for anew watch. This is a Casio, whatever that one is. It's a F nine one W. These costs like10 pounds, 15 pounds you can get them at, at Argos. Do you, have you ever seen thatwatch before? I have. That's, I was listening to a, aboutAndrew Tate on the way here, a podcast. You know who Andrew T is? Yeah. What's your, anyway,so Andrew Tate feels like he's, that guy reduced
to its quintessence where he is, like, oneof his catchphrases was, um, people say, why have you got a, you know, green Bugatti? Doyou know this meme? And what does he say to them? He says, um,well, he says, he says, what colors? I say to them, what colors your Bugatti? , right?That's him in a nutshells, like unapologetically troll, like ostentatious displays of wealthand arrogance, right? So I'm the anate. You can put that on my, you put that on my gravestone? The anate. So I'm like, I don't give a fuckabout your Bugatti. I think it's embarrassing that you have one. No offense if you, no,I don't. I don't have a car, but, you know, fine. You know, and that's kind of a joke.Like that's, I, I, my point really is that that's something I need to keep an eye on,you know, cuz actually ostentatious, uh, Almost like ostentatious humility is its own poison. Like, like why are you so wedded to the ideaof having a shit watch? By the way, it's not a shit watch. It's completely reliable andit's, I've never had it. The only thing that goes on it is the strap. So, so I've got onethat's got a, a, you can replace the strap after about five years. The strap goes. I'vegot two of these. I'm not bragging . I've got one, I've gotmy, I've got my spare one in case I can't find this one. Anyway, last time my wife saidit might be time for a new watch. I've gotta embrace, I'm trying to lean into being theguy that isn't showing off about what a lack, what a not show off he is. You think I'velost the thread? I haven't. The point I'm getting to is that,um, so I needed to start a company and not, because it's, it's oddly ing after a while.Like there's nothing, there's nothing cool about making. Hundreds of hours of TV andnot owning any of it. Right. That's just me being a little bit of a chump. And partlythat's, you know, there's a quid pro quo I suppose. Like, well you don't get stressed, you turnup, you're making things for a public broadcaster, you're getting a decent salary for sure. Butpeople would say like, why? You know everyone else, so who do you work for? It's like, well,I'm bbc, I'm on contract. I work from contract to contract three years at a time. Like really? You don't have your own company?Like, no, why not? Like, you know, cuz everyone else does, like Jamie Oliver or Hug FurleyWitting Stall or, or you know, whoever you care to mention. Any presenter, bear Grills,bear Grill of any longevity, um, would, would be making their own shows. You know, it's,it is a, it is a no-brainer. And I was like, oh, I guess I just, I'm finedoing my, I'm a creature of habit, you know, that was sort of what, I'm just sort fine.I don't wanna mess around with it. And then having done it three or four years ago, like,yeah, I probably should have, should have done it a bit earlier. But it, it's, so, soit's that thing of, um, the point which now landing on the point sounds a bit vanilla,was that you can sort of get in being a creature of habit, being sort of embrace into whateverthat, you know, your own sense of self as, um, risk averse and, um, conventional. Sometimes, you know, I needed to challengemyself in order to discover that there was a, you know, a world out there that was sortof more creative, more lucrative, more fun, more adventurous. That's happened a few timesin your life where you've kind of taken a leap into the unknown, which is actually quitesurprising. Having, you know, described yourself as acreature of comfort. Even habit Have habit, sorry. Yeah. Um, what, no, I don't mean tohabit, like I'm trying to, like tell you off. I can say habit, maybe of comfort as well,although, you know, but habit is really what I meant. Yeah. Creature of habit. Cause I,cause I was reading about when you made that transition from being a writer to a TV presenter. Yeah. And. I, I, I remember writing some quotesabout how, um, how like there was one about feeling like an imposter a little bit to somedegree and getting on that plane to go and interview these Christians. Once Michael Moorehad sort of, um, put you at front and central country, that's, and thinking, what the fuckam I doing here? Yeah, that was, I remember it vividly. It'sextraordinary as you go through life, so much disappears, but there are times when you realizeyou're at this mo sort of momentous moment. I suppose often it's high stress moments.Which, which is really revealing, isn't it? Because actually risk avoidance, you know,that, that almost like, God, my mind's whizzing now, but that bent of my idea, like the greatesthappiness, you know, in philosophy, there's a utilitarian ideal that's supposed to bethe, the metric for how you judge whether an action is good or not. And it's like the greatest, will it causethe greatest happiness of the greatest number
of people? But then if you unpack that, like,well, what is happiness like? Well actually how do you measure it? And how do you measure?Is it happiness in the moment? Is it happiness as it's recollected over time? Is it, um,a happiness that, you know, um, you can, uh, that will spread to other people or, you know,it will exist for a hundred years. Uh, and, and so actually there's a, there'sa sense of fear and discomfort that will subsequently lead to sense of, of, of, of triumph or self-satisfaction.I, you know, is it happiness? Is it, I don't know, like that fear is such a, such a bluntinstrument for attempting to me measure reality. And, um, and in general, fear, which you wouldequate with unhappiness can very often be what ends up creating the conditions for realachievement. And I, I, I, I, I remember sitting on thisplane having been given a job by Michael Moore as a presenter on, you know, TV Nation. Itwas a network TV show on nbc. One of the, there were then three networks in America.I was 23. I, I was, as I say, awkward in every apparent way, disqualified for being a, a,a correspondent on a network TV show I was in, I was having, I was in the union like,you know, as probably still the case, but definitely then, TV shows were unionized toan extent in America further than they would be in the uk. So I would be, I was in the Writer's Guildof America, uh, as a result of being hired. And so they were required to fly me businessclass. Like I don't think I'd ever been in business class. And somehow that contributedto my imposter syndrome. My sense like, I shouldn't really be here. I remember sittingthere thinking like, this is all kinds of wrong. Like, I dunno what I'm doing here. I dunnowhy they think I'm qualified to do this. And nevertheless, this is what's happening. And,and I was that it was a segment that, uh, was about, you know, TV Nation was a kindof satirical, fact-based comedy show where you went out and slightly made fun of peoplewith to prove a political point or to sort of make some sort of social point. So I was interviewing religious cults aboutwhen the end of the world was going to happen. So it was sort of like slightly cheeky, um,, irreverent take on religious fanaticism or religious weirdness. So the eyes, like,I wanted to know, so when will the world end? Is it on a Tuesday? How can I get prepared? And I was sort of in a wide-eyed way. Oh no.Like, will there be, you know, and are the spaceships going to land? And what will thealiens look like? But I was just incredibly conscious of, of thinking like, why have Ibeen given this huge, um, it felt like a big slab of pressure and, and sort of licensedto fail very publicly and very embarrassingly. And, and I also knew I wasn't, you know, butI'm also wasn't so disconnected, connected from reality that I didn't think like, well,it's a huge opportunity. Like my, and my, my girlfriend at the time was very supportiveand was like, you know, you, you should, you, you can do this Louis. Like, you're, you'rereally good with people. And, and, um, and, and you know, don't, don't,don't worry. Like you, you can, you've, you've got this, you can handle it. When you tryto talk yourself out of it. I was, um, it wasn't like I ever thought I, um, I, I won'tdo it. Like I, it, it was no question for like, I'm gonna do it. Like, I have to doit, but I, I, I sort of didn't want to do it. Does that make sense? Has that been typicalof your life where, you know, you've gotta do it, but it feels kind of painful and anxiousas you approach the challenge, even like with starting your own company? Yeah, I think so.Like, there's times when I, you know, I suppose that's where the work ethic part fits in orwhatever, like that part of, if, if you commit to doing something, like I'm very, I, I hateto let people down. Like if I commit to doing something, um, orturning up on time or I still struggle with that part. Like, especially as you're in the,when you're in the public eye or you're in demand and people write and ask for things,I still, you know, will you come to our school and give a talk or I do. I. I, I'm, I'm a,I'm very agreeable in that sort of technical sense. I'm, I'm very inclined to agree to do thingsand that can get you in trouble because you find you're over, I, I find I over agree andmake unrealistic commitments, like, oh, that'll be fine, and then I'll do that, and then I'lldo that. And then you look at it and you're like, there's just no way on earth I can doall of these things. So I try and ring fence my commitment levels,but that's not easy. So, but in a, in a positive way, um, that sense of like feeling like Ineed to show up, having agreed to do it, having been offered a, um, an opportunity, even thoughit might sound enormously stressful, like
I would never, I think this may be a worldin which I never got into tv. I dunno quite what I did end up doing. Thething that it makes me reflect on. The extent to which we are conditioned and groomed intobehaviors that can be healthy or unhealthy or positive or not positive. And I think that'sthe part of the libertarian ethos that I have a huge, well, among others I have a huge issuewith is like, oh, just let people be themselves. People need help to fulfill their potential,right? That idea that, oh, you know, you can pull yourself up by the bootstraps. Like I,with all the advantages I had of like a first rate private education, supportive parents,e even I like didn't see myself as someone who would have various kinds of success. Ididn't feel that that was in me for whatever reason. But other along the way, people among MichaelMoore, um, people at the BBC who then commissioned me to do my own series off the back of TVNation, when I got commissioned to do weird weekends, my wife Nancy, other people alongthe way have sort of, um, seen things in me that. I didn't see in myself even this interviewseries going out at the moment. I, I never, it sounds awful. I never aspiredto have like a TV interview series. Like it was something that would be mentioned fromtime to time. And I would say like, that's not really me. You know? I like going out,like my, my comfort, like my happy place really is in terms of tv. Like, oh, go and be ina prison for two weeks and film the inmates, or go to a mental hospital or go to a, um,a brothel, like I made a film about a brothel and just hang out there for two or three weeksand just be afl. That, that to me is, it sounds awful, butthat's, that's like pure bliss, like work-wise. But the idea of, oh, we'll have a formal sitdown interview and you'll talk to someone famous who probably only has a couple of hoursfor you, and then we'll piece it all together and do shoot. I, I never thought like that'sreally something I want to do, but. Patrick Holland, who was then in charge ofBBC two, had listened to my podcast and said like, I really think this would work. Some,not this exactly, but there's a, there's, there's a TV show that takes aspects of thisthat could exist, that would, you know, involve you talking to people. And I, and I rememberyou would think like, oh, that would, that must have been exciting. Like someone saying like, I wanted to do it.This TV format involves partly chat show, partly documentary. I just thought, I didn'tthink like that's something I'll never do. I did think, like, I just felt very blankabout it. I know that's horrible, like people are going to listen to this and throw up intheir cards, but I just thought that sounds sort of stressful. I'm not sure if I really wanna do that. What,but I made myself, the point is I made myself do it because I had a team around me who Iknew expected me to do it and at some level I had enough sense to recognize that it wasan opportunity. These people that have seen things in you that you maybe couldn't at thetime, have seen in yourself or seen roles for you that you maybe at the time couldn'thave seen for yourself? Michael Moore, Nancy, and then people at theBBC that you mentioned. Are you aware of what they're seeing in you now in hindsight, whatthey see? Uh, yeah, I think so. And I think in with, with a bit of time, I've been ableto appreciate, um, that, I know it sounds sort of glib and maybe even false, modest,but to, to appreciate that I have something to offer. Um, what is that? Well, um, it makes peoplefeel uncomfortable when you're asking these questions. No, no. I'm fine with it. Okay.Like, cuz I feel as though I can analyze it. Um, With the benefit of 25 years of doingit. I think it's something to do with like a little bit of intelligence, a little bitof humor, a little bit of un sort of unor awkwardness. Like I think that's part of it, like justbeing a little bit awkward, a little bit of, um, sorts of authenticity or, or whateverthat is. Like, just sort of feeling like, I think maybe that that same thing of notreally fully chasing it or fully sort of needing it, oddly enough is almost the, you know,it's like to go through the door, you have to not want to go through the door too much. I dunno if that's even, that's definitelynot a saying and it doesn't actually make any sense, but whatever sense you can makeof that contradictory statement, if you want it too much, I think. There's, there's, thenyou need to step back and think about quite, it's almost like then you're not ready. Um,grasshopper, is that the right, is Grasshopper, is that what these are saying? Karate kid? Yeah. I think if I can talk, ifI can call you a grasshopper, Steve. No. Um,
you know, it's like, it's that feeling of,uh, you know, at the end of the day, , um, there's more important things in life and,um, I don't wanna overdo, I actually got lost in my metaphor a bit, but I think in the endit's like those different qualities of, of, of, of it's, it's that compliment of qualitiesand then just luck. But I don't think luck really is a quality,but alongside, I'm now at the position we're having done my job for long enough. It's putme in a slight, I think there's loads of people who could be, uh, whoever I am, like occupythat cultural place that I'm in. But, you know, and partly I've earned my place here,and partly I've been really lucky. But I think, you know, when you said somethingearlier, it also made me think of another quality, which is to do with, which isn'ta negative thing, which is that, you know, that idea like you, when you were told, youknow, when I was told that, oh, you know, Patrick, you know, is quite keen to do somesort of talk format or some interview thing where you're on tv and I, and I just thinklike, well, I'm not really sure. I, I, I think one of my, cuz it goes backto what you were asking earlier about what is the downside of these various qualities.Like, I do think there's a term Anne Hedonic. Have you ever heard that term? No. It justmeans, I think it's a clinical term, but it sort of, it sort of means averse to pleasureor lacking in pleasure. Like, there's a part of me again that, um,I think my wife has helped me with is that I, I kind of sense that I'm not always connectedto pleasure. Does that sound weird? Like I, I, you know, sometimes I, I sort of driftthrough life and, and I have to sort of stop and remind myself I think because I, I sortof. I, I tend to see downsides and, and I, I'mworking on that and, and I, I really do. Like, I, I sort of need to, it's really odd, likeI've won three Bs, not bragging. Uh, this just came up and I, and I mention it's a fact.And, um, and when you win a, after you've got a lot of awards up there. I'm not seeinga b Maybe those are just I presented after tosomeone else. Some of them ones a camera. I'm not sure that camera is an award or youcan do a cutaway of that later. You know, it's odd. Like I, my main thing on winning,each time I won a ba I first thought was being. Oh shit. Now I have to give an acceptancespeech. Right. And I have to get up there and, um,you know, in high, like, the pleasure, you know, you get a little pleasure over the subsequentyears when you can bring it up again and again as I like to do. But actually it's reallyhard. Like I, I, most of the time when I get good news, sometimes I don't even, I can'tnotice the good news. Does that sound really weird? No, that makessense. I don't know if that make, thank you for saying that. I think you're being polite.Yeah. I I'm not someone who, I'm not someone who, um, is, who automatically feels connectedto the good things that happen to them. How does one remain happy if they have that sortkind of default to, oh my God, where am I gonna put this third BA that I've won? Or now I have to do a speech. Well, that'sawful. But you just sort of follow your routine, you know? And actually, I am a happy personand, um, I, um, I, you know, I, I I take pleasure in the simple things in life. You know, I,I like, um, doing stuff with the, you know, stuff with the family or, you know, really,I really am a terrible, I've made a simple place. Like I, I like watching Match of the Day atthe weekend. Like you say, like, yeah, okay, lots of people like doing that. What's like,but you know, like that, that for me is one of the small things in the week where I'mlike, I know I'm gonna be happy for the next 45 minutes or, or hour, you know what I mean?Or on, on a, on a Saturday night, I listen to loose ends on Radio four, and often I'llbe cooking and, and that's a small thing. And I get a little, a little tiny little boostout of, um, now I'm gonna enjoy it. Usually I enjoy listening to it. There's little thing,I, I mean, I, I'm not, if someone says like, you're gonna go on holiday to The Bahamas,I'm trying to imagine what a really big, happy thing would be. I, I would normally experiencethat as stress and anxiety. I think that's quite normal though. Holidaysare stressful, aren't they? Maybe you've got your priorities in order, in fact, becauseyou don't seem to be compelled or sat, um, or derive your happiness from like, the bigwonky stuff from like the Lamborghini, the spaghetti, the bfda. Yeah. What color's yourspaghetti? The GQ man of the year stuff. You seem, seemto drive it from the, the simple, intrinsically fulfilling things like, you know, cooking,listening to a thing that's intellectually stimulating. So maybe we're all, maybe everyoneelse is a weirdo and you're actually incredibly normal. Don't know. I, I think there's moreof us out there than you might think, but
maybe not. We're all trapped in our own brains. There'sno way of measuring. I do think that, um, you know, I mentioned that when I saw thatI got a nice review in the. That gave me like a, as I said, it gave me a buzz. You caredabout your work though. Yeah. You really cared about, well, that wasn't even about, I mean,I do care about the work. I mean, work is a big source of pleasure.Like in the sense of either being on location and, um, being aware of it going well andgetting into an almost like a mindset in an interview of feeling like, yeah, this is allgood. Like I feel connected. I feel, uh, cuz it's a high stress in a way. I'm sure youhave a little bit, if you have an interview with someone, you feel like you've been tryingto book it for a while, uh, the moment comes, you're like, the next two hours are reallyimportant. You want it to go smoothly. You want it tofeel like a revealing encounter. You, you wanna be probing and insightful and intensiveand immersed and not distracted, but also thinking ahead and, and all of that's goingon. And then it starts and then you feel like, oh, it's going okay. And then after you'relike, that was a good one. And then in the edit you're putting it togetherand you're piecing things in like that. All of those, the simple pleasures of. Of craft,you know, like it's really, and it is simple. Like it's no great mystery, but that, that's,that's a big part of, um, of how I connect with, uh, well my own happiness. How do youconnect with people? So actually I wanted to ask you this for myown sort of learning. You've done this for multiple decades. You've sat with people fromevery corner of the world. You have all of these different experiences, and some of themare a little bit, you know, in the nicest sense, a little bit out there. Mm-hmm. , I'mglad I landed with a PC word. Yeah. A little bit out there. Wonder whatthe non PC word . But you have, um, it was funny when I asked you about the qualitiesyou have, I think you absolutely nailed it. And all of those make you incredibly disarmingthat almost like lack of intense seriousness makes you really disarming individual. Um,how do you connect with people? How intentional is your approach to connectingwith them mm-hmm. in your new interview series, but also just generally Some of it is stuffthat. You know, I didn't, I just sort of came by by accident, probably most of it, whichis a thing, you know, natural curiosity, which I think you have a feeling of, um, of just,just wanting to know why people do the things that they do. Right. And, and, and sort of getting out ofyour own way a bit, you know, in the sense, cause the question I get asked most oftenis like, what, how do you not get angry with some of these people? Especially the oneswho are sort of spewing hate or coming out with stuff That's really objection. I findit slightly confusing question because I think that's so, is so far from what's in my headmost of the time I'm genuinely think like, why, if, if it is someone, like say a neo-Nazior someone involved in religious intolerance, I'm just so curious about what takes someoneto that place. What, what, what's in their mind that to actuallyberate them. To give him a hard time or even be particularly journalistically confrontational.That's not, that's not my default mode. That's so interesting. Cause I just think in lifegenerally, those who like seek to un, even in our personal relationships and romanticrelationships, those that seek to understand, tend to build bridges. But if you seek to like, as you say, berate.Yeah. I get told off on this podcast a lot on like Twitter and in the press, like, becauseI don't berate people. Mm-hmm. , like when I had Matt Hancock here, I asked him the questionsI really wanted to know, but I didn't, I didn't come to berate him. No. He would've gone this. Yeah. The wall would've gone up had I donethat. There's other ways of, and some people use a confrontational approach and that'sfine. And then I think in general, um, you know, there's many ways of doing interviewsand I think probably, you know, I haven't interviewed many politicians, and it's probablyrelated to that, the feeling that they, they, they have their. They tend to have their guard up, they tendto be, uh, followed a strategy of, of attempting to be as, as risk averse headline averse asas possible. And it's like those aren't the people I'm, I'm interested in people who aregenuinely attempt, who feel like they've got something figured out or, or, or are involvedin a, in a world or a lifestyle or just some situation that is, is either self-sabotagingor, or filled with angst. So in the end, I see it as not, I'm not tryingto get one over on people. I'm not trying to, I honestly, most interviews I see it asa, as a potential win-win. You know what I
mean? Like, I, I should think like, well,there's no, there's no reason why you shouldn't tell me the truth and you're involved in somethingthat you're relatively open about. And, and I'll, I'll just assume that that'sprobably the case. Now, obviously you are briefed, you've done as much research. Asyou can. But um, I think if you feel as though you're coming from a position of, um, sortof shared inquiry, then that's contagious. Um, I think also I sort of tend to think,I think there's some part who thinks maybe other person's got it figured out and I haven't. Right. A level of humility so that when theysay stuff, I'm genuinely thinking like, well, I guess maybe or may. Or they say somethingbonkers. I'm like, well, that isn't right. But I enjoy bumping up against that and Idon't go in there thinking I'm gonna, I'm gonna get this person. Like, I'm gonna getone over on them. I sort of feel as though, you know, you comein and you just sort of try and just see what's going on. You know, if, if people see like,You are attempting to wrestle intimacies from them, that's never gonna go well. You justcreate the space and the sense of, of understanding and allow them to sort of walk through thateverything you've just described there, that creating the space to like understand them,the humility, which is ultimately creates that safety, which allows them to open upare the exact things that I know my partner wants from me in all of our interactions. Mm-hmm. . So because you've got that skillin your work, I'm here assuming that you also have that at home mm-hmm. , is that correct?Um, I think I could work better on it. Like, I'm very aware that the skill set, I oftenthink about the skill that I have in my work of being supposedly a good listener and anempathetic. And present person. I, I slightly fail at,you know, kind of, I think a very, probably normal way in, in my relationship. Like I,I have a very happy marriage and probably you should check that with Nancy. Uh, cause,well, I'm slightly reviewing my own restaurant if I can use that metaphor. Um, and um, butyeah, on good reads, I gave my book a five out of five and, and you know, I'm givingmy marriage five out of five. Uh, so I think, I think I could do. I thinkI could, I could improve. This episode is brought to you by a Mercedes-Benz who recentlygot in touch to support the DI of a co. Thank you. I'm a huge fan of their cars. In fact,I have one of my own, which is like an Office on wheels, and they have an exciting widerange of cars that I'd love to tell you about. The Mercedes EQ is the luxury electric rangeof Mercedes-Benz, and it is available across many models from the SUVs to the saloons,meaning they're ideal for all business needs. The innovative next generation technologyfound in all Mercedes EQ cars is really paving the way for the electric car industry to makeyour electric car switch so much easier. Mercedes-Benz has a service called MercedesMe Charge. It's a subscription which provides you with access to a wide network of chargingstations across the entirety of the uk. The app shows you the precise location and currentavailability and price at the selected charging station of your choice. And this enables businessesto effectively plan their route ahead of their journey. You can search Mercedes-Benz Fleet today todiscover how the Mercedes EQ car range can help your business get ahead and if you alreadydrive a Mercedes E. Let me know how you find it. As some of you may know, Intel now oneof our sponsors on this podcast, and I really want to tell you about that vPro platform,which has totally changed the game for my businesses. Let me tell you why. Intel vPro is built forbusinesses. It offers professional grade performance and the most comprehensive security, whichis something that is key for every entrepreneur. But the vPro platform also offers completemodern management capabilities, which simply means that it's perfect for a hybrid workingsetup. Intel has spent over 15 years developing thistechnology with ecosystem partners, and I truly think it has the potential to move businessesforward, making your business journey far more productive and efficient. So I reallyencourage you to go and find out more@intel.co uk slash vPro and let me know what you think,because for me, I know it's added no end of benefit to all of our systems and businesscontinuity. In your autobiography on page 150, Are youserious? Yes. Gotta get through this, my life in strange times in television. Do you knowwhat I'm gonna say? Get it on audiobook for an extra chapter about Jimmy ssl. That's true.Speaking of page 157, and Jimmy, Jimmy SSL on that page, your former wife, seeing aswe're talking about relationships and reviewing them, et cetera, she said, there's nothingreal about you. Yeah. And to the point of Jimmy ssl, he alsosaid something which was to the same vein
about insincerity. Yeah. Being your specialty.Yeah. That's good. I'm glad you brought that up, It's quite a, uh, telling sort of ringingpiece of, uh, self exposure where, where, yeah, I, my wife and Jimmy several both makethe same critique of my interpersonal qualities, finding me lacking in. basically authenticity,lacking insincerity. There's nothing real about, well, the first thing is when a relationshipis ending, um, you seize whatever you can to hurt the other person. I think it's, I think when someone you reallylove and you think really loves you, I mean, I, it was my girlfriend at the time, althoughwe were married, and that's a whole other complicated. But, but yeah, when that relationshipwas ending, I think there's a feeling of betrayal, isn't there? It's like, I thought we were,we were together forever and I trusted that that would be the case. And, and here we are. Clearly you don't feelthe same way. And, and so I'm in the position of, in her eyes being a kind of trait andinauthentic someone who didn't deliver on, um, on what was promised, although it wasn'tpromised. But what was, what seemed to be implicit. Um, I think, uh, yeah, in, I mean,I remember where we were, like when the Jimmy Sa, the first documentary I made about JimmySa, when he was alive, when Louis met Jimmy, not available on the iPlayer, um, but it'son the internet, you can find him. And um, I remember when we promoted it, um,before, I think it was when we promoted it, and he, he agreed to do an interview to promoteit. And he, part of that was a profile interview in The Guardian, and he was interviewed atthe King's Cross in one of the, in the hotel there, in one of the hotel rooms. And theguy from the Guardian came down, and I don't even know why, I don't even know why it cameup. Um, but I made a joke and he said, ah, insincerity your specialty, Gosh, you asking me to get inside the mind of Jimmy Savilleto think about what he meant when he criticized me? I think he thought that, um, I think thatjournalistic role where, um, well, I think part, I think you know what it is, is likethe best const, there's two constructions I can put on that. One is just that in journalism you sort ofrequired to inhabit this place of intimacy. Like actually, like, hey, let's do this andlet's do that, and then afterwards you sort of disconnect and sometimes that can feeljarring. I don't think actually that's what he meant though. Like I think, I think maybein some cases there's a, there's a pop journalism that can feel slightly in sort of transactionalwhere you're like, let's grow down on location and, and have fun. And, and yet if you looked at it. dispassionately.It's slightly cynical and calculating. It's like, well, you're doing this for a TV program.And, and so there's a part that slightly feel a little bit uncomfortable. I think reallywhat he was talking about, there was a sense of humor. Um, he was, he was calling out mysense of humor, which is sometimes an aspect of it, which sometimes involves, um, almostself parody, like an element of where you say something, uh, almost as a way of parsort of paring or satirizing your own. This isn't gonna make any sense, Steve, butyou satirize your own worst impulses. The best example I can give is when I said to,um, when I was with Neil and Christine Hamilton, right. I did a program and they were accusedof sexual assault and, and while I filmed with them, and then I, uh, and they wouldbecome media circus and I carried on filming, and then they did a deal with the male onSunday. to sell their story. And I was interviewingthem during all of this and I said to Christine, how, how much did the mail on Sunday pay foryou, uh, for the interview? I was just curious. Cuz I knew probably they got 10 or 15 or 20,000pounds and I was just curious. And Christine said, I'm not gonna tell you. And I said to Christine, Christine, this isme. I'm not a journalist, I'm a friend. Like you can tell me. And a lot of people gaveme shit for it. Right? Like that what I said. But in my mind, like that was a funny thingto say because quite obviously, um, I am a journalist and whether I'm a friend or notis actually not established. I'm not clearly not a friend, but I'm notalso clearly a friend. Right. So that was kind of a funny remark because I was beingnakedly insincere, which is fun. Like sometimes to me, what's funny is saying, But not likesort of saying the wrong thing, saying the thing that sort brazen as a way of, of justsort of identifying the hypocrisy and having fun with it. So I, I tend to think that, I think that'swhat Jimmy Saville meant was that sometimes I would say things that would kind of definitivelyeither untrue or quite clearly being said
because they were not clearly true. Anyway,that's way you asked that question. And then when you ask a question about Jimmy Saval,I'm gonna give you a long answer because it's easy to be misconstrued. But I think that's what he meant. I thinkI'm in general, like fairly, um, a fairly straight up person, but I also think thatthe tendency to believe your own bullshit to drink your own Kool-Aid is, is almost universal,almost a precondition of life. Right. You know, NTHA, the German philosopher. Uh, whoI try not to quote too much cuz it makes me sound pretentious, but he has, he has a coupleof really good quotes on this where one is, um, for the true deceiver, you know, for themost effective deceiver, first he must believe his own deceptions. I, I'm mangling that quotation. But the ideathat in order to con someone, you sort of have to believe the most effective con artistis the one who believes their own con, you know, you and, you know, like, or a seducer,like they say that about Casanova, you know, one of the most, um, notorious womanizers,um, in human history. And they say that he actually, each time heseduced someone, he fell in love with them. You know, and maybe it's true for sales ingeneral. Like, you really gotta, if you believe in that. And, and so I'm, I'm fully awarethat for me to say like I'm an authentic human being and that my journalism relies on. Akind of true connection. I'm, I'm, I, you know, the little part methinks like, I think, I believe that, um, I'm pretty sure I, I pre, I know I do believethat, but I'm not my own best reference on whether or not that's really the case. I neglectedmy personal life to focus on achieving some sort of per professional success. The priceof my lack of emotional mouse was paid by those nearest and dearest to me. When did you get that feedback? Cause I rememberthe times in my life where I've got that feedback from friends, family, romantic partners, andat first, sometimes we sometimes argue against it. We, oh, fuck off. And then we walk awayand we go, eh, this is true. I think I've had that feedback in my relationships moreor less, um, consistently. Uh, and, and until maybe. Four or five, sixyears ago. Like, I think, again, I feel like I'm reviewing my own book. Like, and now folks,I am happy and healthy and well adjusted, and I've arrived at a spiritual place of tranquility.But I do, I am conscious that I, um, all through my twenties and thirties, I saw my relationshipsas a, um, I think, I think the other phrase I use is, is like I saw my relationships assort of life support system for my kinda work self. Do you know what I mean? Amen. I can relateinstead of the other way around, you know? And so I would say like, well, I would takeoff when I went. Worked for Michael Moore. It was even back in, in the nineties. It wasa source of friction in the relationship that, like, without much warning, cause I becamethe fillin guy who, when other stake people couldn't do segments or because they were,they found, weren't available, weren't stressed about it, I, I'd be like, let's get Louieto do it. I, I, I did a lot of great segments just bybeing available at a moment's notice to fly somewhere and, and never thought really, whichI don't know that, that it was the wrong thing to do at that time. We didn't have kids. Um,and so I'd be like, okay, I'm off for three or four days. And um, but as it went on andthen as I had kids, um, and I was still doing the same thing, sort of saying to my wife,well this is what I do. There's a chapter in my book called This isWhat I Do. You know, you knew when we married that we would be, um, that I was a sort ofglobe trotting TV documentary maker. And she, um, She said, yeah, what did I do? When we,when we met, I was a TV director as well, and I've changed what I do and you need tochange what you do. Like, I don't mean to sound like she was beinghorrible about it, but her attitude was like, people make a, you need to make an adjustmentto accommodate the fact that we now have two small children. And how did you receive that?Um, at first I think I received that as well. Not, not well. Like I, it didn't makeme angry, but it, I, I was somewhat inflexible because my attitude was, look, I was, becauseI went, you know, I, my parents had, my dad traveled a lot for work. My mom was a full-timeTV producer and we had people at home op pairs who, um, who made sure that when we got homesomeone was there and would make us a meal. And so I was like, well, we just need to gethelp. She said, I don't want, I don't want. Us to get help. I said, you, she said, well,I said, I said, you can do whatever you wanna do. You, you can carry on working five daysa week, six days. You can travel as well if you want. We just need to get help. And she'slike, I don't, I want one of us to be here and I want for some of that.
I want it to be you. I don't know. Does thatsound so you sound like me. Really? Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, well, I said, I, I guessI don't see it that way. So it became a bit of an impa impasse for a while. And then,and then, um, well then we had another child and um, and she said, well, now we've gota baby and two small children and you've agreed to take, to make sure you only work in the. And I was like, did I agree to that? And shesaid yes. And I couldn't remember it, but I was like, well, she's probably right. Andum, did you make rules? I read that you made some rules, you had a rule that I wouldn'tgo away for more than two weeks. And um, and actually for most of the time it was betweensort of a week and 10 or 12 days. Are you flexible now? Well, I don't wannamake my wife sound like, I know there's some people I hear that and go like, well, youknow, Louis was obviously bringing back the bigger wage and, and so he should have been.I, I honestly think my wife was right about most of that. I feel the same way about mypartner and it's almost identical that it, it took me to find the right person to compromisemy inflexibility where they, they made the case to me that quality time and this relationshipwas actually an equal priority, let's say, to the work and with the right person, I wasfinally willing to bend. And I was finally willing to, you know? Yeah.So, but I think it takes the right person. Yeah. To me it does. Anyway. Yeah. The rightperson, the right relationship, the right life stage. Yeah. I also say that these interviewsI'm doing, part of that is an agreement that we made, well, even in agreement, a kind ofagreement I made with myself in lockdown and being around my kids are now 16, 14, and eight. You know, turns out older children in manyrespects need more management, need more sort of parental presence in their lives than youngerchildren. And so I said, well, maybe a way for me to travel less and not be taking offfor, you know, two or three months a year, cuz you aggregate those two week trips or10 and they add up to maybe a quarter or a third of the year. And now I, I can, I can, my schedule is muchmore, I said like, if I do these interview. And we make TV shows in the uk and that there'sa more controllable schedule, and I could be around more. Nancy helped me set up thecompany. She's working more, I'm home more. And so it's actually like, it turns out conformingto those expectations of family involvement. It is really positive. Like it can actuallybe a creative boon. You know? It's not the enemy necessarily. It can be, it can makeyou a more rounded person that ends up being beneficial. That's exactly what I used tothink it was. I used to think it was the enemy of my professional success, but I've cometo learn that it may be the friend. It's the, yeah, it serves it. Um, you mentionedanxiety throughout this conversation. Now sometimes when people talk about anxiety,they talk about it as in. Like an emotion. They kind of, it's a flippant word to describea situation where you're thinking a little bit much, but then there's what people woulddescribe as sort of real anxiety that kind of crippling like, ooh, you know, that we'veall felt that like insane and shakeable sort of deep nervousness about a situation andworry. Which one are you referring to? Uh, I thinkthe first one, I, I don't think I've ever had a panic attack, for example. Um, I don'tthink I've ever had a feeling of, um, kind of in being incapacitated. I mean, I've hadmoments where I've had stage fright or moment, you know, that, that thing where due to you,you just get, even recently, like there's been moments where you just get this sorttremulous feeling of nerves and your voice starts to shake. Have you ever had that where you've been ina situation where, or sometimes it's just, sometimes it, it's to do with you're in a., you get into an argument with someone and you get really upset and your voice goes abit like this. Like it doesn't, you know, it was just kind of horrible. Uh, or sometimesit's just where you feel like you are. Like I've been once or twice in, in situationswhere, um, I just think, oh, this isn't going well. And then your, your confidence goes.I mean, dunno if that's quite, that's sort of nerves which are slightly different fromanxiety. Anxiety, like where, but the anxiety I mainly mean is just a kind of sense of foreboding,a pervasive feeling of, um, of worry about something that's gonna happen. Because one of the things we talk a lot abouton this podcast is about mental health and about how that affects people that are inhigh profile, high stress positions. What's your, you know, mental health is a topic thatkind of emerged in cultural relevance about maybe a decade ago now. But when I was a kidI didn't understand it. I didn't know what that was. And I, I be honest,I think the stigma was very much my belief.
It was kinda like, people are crazy. Somepeople are crazy. Yeah. Um, what's your journey been like with your own mental health? I feelreally lucky to have, um, broadly speaking, good mental health. I also think what you'resaying is exactly right and I think that there's a kind of, there's a continuity, a blurringthat exists so that, um, you, I think mental health as opposed to mental illness is a goodway of thinking about it like that. Cuz actually, um, we should all be strivingtoward, Being our best selves, we should be managing our anxiety. I think a lot of menespecially fail even to recognize when their mental health may not be as good as it couldbe. And the extreme end, you've got incapacitating mental illness that requires a set of interventions,possibly medication, even sort of residential rehab settings. But for, for, for the rest of us, it's justa, it's keeping an eye on, on how you're doing and, and no, you know, sometimes I noticemy emotions from the outside. Like, I, I notice that my voice is raised. I'm like, wow, I'mangry. You know, like, or, or, and even when I'm sad I, or grumpy or whatever it is, I'mnot the first really to see it. Or my wife will say like, are you in a badplace? I think we've been guilty of failing to see mental health as a holistic condition.Like in other words, that. Your support network needs to be in place. You need social inter,these are really basic, but you need social interaction. You need, you need, um, exposureto things outside of work. You also need endorsement and approval inwork. And all of these things need to be sort of pulling in the same direction. And theremay be people in your life who are undermining you and you may need support from people tonudge you in the right direction. But, you know, not to sound really bland about it,I feel as though I've, um, you know, through, through sort of my wife's so perceptivenessand her ability to sort of see how, how just so involved me in life a bit more that that's,um, that's kept me in a good place. We have a closing tradition on this podcast,which, Which is the previous guest writes a question for the next guest. Oh, wow. Okay.And the previous guest, you don't get to know who the previous guest was, but the previousguest has written a question, um, for you not knowing it was for you, and they said,what is your opinion on hallucinogens? Hallucinogens? Um, I, my opinion is, I think,um, you know, if you, if, if you feel like you are, if you're of age like 18 plus, Idunno how your younger listeners are, you know, maybe even maybe slightly older. Um,and you feel like you've got solid mental health. I think it's a, it's not a bad avenueto go down. It's not something I've massively dabbledin. Um, I've noticed, I dunno about you, I, in my social settings, um, it seems to bemushroom oil. It's something that's increasingly being used. Uh, And I think actually in a,you know, in a, and I think we're all aware of the slight, there's sort of dissonancebetween our levels of acceptance of alcohol and then the sort of relative unacceptanceof things like whether it's marijuana or mushrooms and mushroom oil. Like, I'd like to see that leveled out. LikeI'd like to see as it is in California and elsewhere, I'd like to see cannabis legalizedand, um, I think mushroom oil, without giving too much. Could be really positive from what I understand. Louis, thank you somuch for your time today. Pleasure so much from you for, for so many reasons. Um, andyour new documents on the bbc, BBC two, and on I Player Lou through interviews is incredible.Yeah, you're six them out there, they're right now. Um, they're incredible and you're interviewingsome incredible people that are, are being very vulnerable and open with you. But thank you for the inspiration as well.You're someone that I've watched for the, for decades. Thanks Steve. And that's givenme a life full of enjoyments and thank you for coming and doing this. Pleasure. Quickone. Right now, one of my sponsors on this podcast who I absolutely adore, crafted themen's jewelry brand, are having a sale right now up to 70% off a brand that's already incrediblyaffordable. If you ever see me wearing jewelry on videosin real life, it's crafted jewelry, this particular piece. These pearls here are one of my favoritepieces to wear when I'm trying to wear a fashionable item. All of their pieces, I wear all of theirrings, I wear all of their jewelry. And I did, before they sponsored this podcast, Iactually asked them to sponsor this podcast because I was such a big fan of the brand. I'm not somebody that rolls around in Rolexesand stuff like that, but I do want quality jewelry that isn't gonna change color, thatis gonna be durable enough to keep up with me. Um, that looks fashionable and that hasa sense of meaning. And that's exactly what crafted has in their rings, in their necklaces,in everything they produce.
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