Video URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mx8813RLUtc
Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day Josh St my man introduce your friend this is going to be wild uh this is JD Tomlinson the former prosecuting attorney for Lorraine County Ohio and for the listeners prosecuting attorney is uh similar to a DA in most jurisdictions they just called the prosecuting attorney he was the the head attorney in um Lorraine County Ohio that's correct up until January so the reason why that's significant is last time we were here we were talking about that case the case of the Ohio 4 so let's why don't you recap that for everybody's for people that didn't listen to the previous podcast what we talked about this so the Ohio 4 are four gentlemen that were wrongfully convicted of a murder they didn't commit and the last time I came on we talked extensively about the case you could read about it at free the Ohio 4.com we have on that site my submission that I made to JD when he was the prosecuting attorney and all the exhibits supporting it but what happened is this woman is murdered in the 90s and these four men become suspects actually before there's any evidence against them whatsoever in two and a half Decades of doing postc conviction work I had never seen the police put in an affidavit um where they're excuse me not an affidavit a police report when they're investigating this murder that these four men are people we should look at based on nothing other than there was a lot of commotion in the community understandably so that there were people from out of town selling drugs no question my client um and these other three guys were involved in selling drugs and they wanted drugs off the street in lra so they immediately start looking at them this woman is found behind a shopping center horribly savagely murdered she's stabbed multiple times her throat is cut her name is Marsha Blakeley she had been run over by a car it was obvious because there were tire marks on her body
and several hours later that morning someone that she lived with gentleman by the name of eps was found murdered in strikingly similar fashion so the police are invest tigating this crime and run into a dead end they have no leads they don't have any evidence and they're searching for the perpetrators so the Lorraine County prosecutor's office goes public with the offer of an award they offer $2,500 to anybody that has information about this crime the next day or a couple of days later in walks a man named William Avery senior who was no stranger to the Lorraine County Police Department he had been a paid informant for them for a long time and he comes in and he speaks to detectives and they say everything you're tell in in essence they say everything you're telling us has been public you know you need to give us more information he then that week brings his son in William Avery Jr and his son claims to have information about the case and they tell him you know you're not telling us enough he comes back about a week later and he says well I know the guys that did this and he blames the murder on Al Cleveland um John Edwards lenworth Edwards and Benson Davis and he claims that Al Cleveland confess it to him so they start investigating this man William Avery Jr's account of what happened and what he is telling them happen does not match the physical state of this apartment where he claims this beating happened so this is like one of The Telltale ways to tell if someone is falsely confessing to you or or falsely implicating others he tells them that there's this horrific beating of of this victim that occurs in an apartment and they go to the apartment I mean chairs turned over tables turned over a bloody knockdown drag out fight for her life and they go to the apartment and take pictures and it's in the most pristine condition you can imagine not a chair turned over not a table and they immediately had reason to know that this guy was bullshitting because he then comes and says to them
you know I have other details and the more details he gives them the less it's matching up with the evidence that they have so they're trying these four men separately when the first trial happens William Avery Jr has an idea and his idea is I'm gonna extort these people for money he shows up at the trial and he tells the prosecutors I want $10,000 and the prosecutor said him what are you talking about um you have to testify you got the the reward money and he says I'm not testifying they put him in jail for contempt and he says I made the whole thing up anyways I did it for the reward money I made it up they should have known right then and there before any of these four men were tried that this was someone that lend them down the wrong path but instead of doing that they keep him in jail I don't remember if it was for 30 days or 60 days and they let him cool his heels a little bit the judge in the trial calls a mistrial and when there's a mistrial you can try someone again so about a month goes by and William Avery Jr's story has now evolved he now no longer claims that Al Cleveland confessed to him he claims that he was a witness to it oh boy and what happens in that intervening month I think people can draw their own obvious conclusions about what happens but suffice to say it's my opinion and my belief that they did a number on this guy so he goes on to testify at all four of their trials individually during which time the lead prosecutor gets a correspondence from the US Secret Service saying that we know you use this man William Avery Jr as an informant we have been using him as a paid informant in some food stamps thing and we just caught him in a lie and he's compromising our investigations because he is accepting reward money and making things up and we're ceasing to use him as an informant and we are investigating him for crimes and Imp in in giving us false information and accepting reward money for it so the prosecutor you would think at that point would say all right it's over obviously it's over so these guys all get sentenced and convicted to I believe it was 25 years to life that's
right and I became involved in the case and about two years ago year and a half ago and dissected the record and I I was blown away by what I had seen and I've seen it all I found out that William Avery Jr walked into the FBI in 2004 and the FBI documents it and he says look I was a drug addict my father had threatened me he was a drug addict and he made me go in there and tell a lie about these men and falsely implicate them in a murder that they didn't commit I'm now off drugs and I want to clear my conscience so the FBI documents it and sends the report to the Lorraine County Prosecutors in 2006 Al Cleveland has an investigator searching for this man William Avery Jr for years they couldn't find him they finally find him and they get an affidavit explaining William Avery Jr explains how he made the whole thing up he recounts what he told the FBI and postc conviction proceedings get scheduled and post conviction proceedings is we're going to have a hearing as to whether Al Cleveland is innocent so the hearing is before a judge named judge rothgar in lurain county and what happens in essence is that William Avery Jr shows up to testify and the judge tells him before you testify you should know your rights in in words or substance and he tells him that if you testify here that these men actually didn't do it there are potential consequences for making it up and if you're lying now and saying they didn't do it just to help them out there's consequences for that so he's quickly told that he's going to be facing potential perjury charges so he decided decides not to testify that postc conviction hearing he walks out of the courthouse and reporters for the local paper ask him like why didn't you testify what happened and he says look I made the whole thing up these guys didn't do it but I'm not going to jail for 25 years so that's the that is the recap so I was at that hearing so this is
crazy I found out from Al Cleveland Al Cleveland spent so much much time in prison that he timed out and was paroled I think he spent close to 30 years in prison and he approached JD and he approached JD with his wife and it turned out that JD as a young lawyer was sitting at that hearing watching it and knew as a young lawyer that there was something terribly wrong but back to just to get listeners and viewers up to speed on where we're at so I came on the show in November about a week before Thanksgiving and I laid the case out in finer detail than I just did and like I said if you want more details you could go to free the Ohio 4.com and my submission to JD and all the exhibits are there but that's basically the story as I told it yeah so I had been trying to get in touch with with JD because he was running for reelection he had listed his cell phone number on the internet so I had a cell phone number and I was sending him text messages and emails and calling him and I was getting ghosted we had communicated for a little bit beforehand is that true no sir no no sir uh so uh I couldn't get in touch with him and then as I'm trying to get in touch with him prior to to my coming on the show and speaking to you about it in November JD gets inded oh excuse me Char he gets charged by complaint no no grand jury they charge him with three felonies and I take a look and I and I see that he's running against someone and that that person that he's running against is posting about the fact that he was charged with three felonies and I'm like all right well this seems like a political Witch Hunt I don't know much about it but it seems like a tactic so I came on the show and I said look I know this guy's up against it hopefully he now knows what it's like to be accused of something he didn't do and I said he's either under so much stress or isn't techsavvy enough both to to know that every time I text him and say please I just need five minutes of your time I could see he's reading my text because he had his read receipts on and he didn't know it whoopsies so I learned Joe I learned so I leave Austin fly back to New York I'm in New York the episode aired I
think at 12:00 p.m. or 1 p.m. eastern time and at about 5:30 I see on my phone JD Tomlinson and I said I was about to teach my my law school class these kids that at the Cardoza law school that that take the freedom clinic at the Pearl mutter center for legal justice they all know about the case they know what just happened I was like holy [ __ ] this guy is trying to get in touch with me now and I picked up the phone I said hello and he said Josh this is JD Tomas and he's like hey man uh he said I've been under a lot of stress you got there's people calling and emailing and flooding our office you got to make this stop and I said that's the jogan fact there's no stopping what can't be stopped in I uh it was it had its intended effect and JD and I got into a discussion right away and I had to quickly figure out a way to connect with him and tell him I feel your pain I hear what you're going through and he told me listen I'm fighting for my life over here these people have upended my life they're threatening my freedom I've been charged with crimes I didn't commit and I just quickly pivoted and and I said if you just give me a date I want to come down and I want to just show you you now know what this is like these imagine going through this for 30 years so I I have to say in all my years of doing this considering the circumstances that he was in for him to say you know he was wrestling with it on the call and he said you know I'll never forget what he said to me he said you know if I don't at least agree to meet with you who am I and I said Thank you and he said I I just don't know if there's time but I I owe you at least a meeting and given what he was going through and what he was up against and he knew the case well he had had the Ohio Innocence Project had presented to him years earlier and he knew the case well so he I think he had a sense that there was something really wrong going on and I had exonerated two people prior to that so I had some experience in that well you're going to get to that the way that JD made enemies in Ohio and that town is because he had the
audacity he had the nerve to say I see two innocent people in another case and I'm going to exonerate them and that is the beginning of his issues um in Ohio so I I mean if you want to hear from JD's perspective perspective because what ensued and what has happened in the months since has been one of the most shocking disturbing you know frankly disgusting displays of of what I think is ego and abuse of the system in my opinion um that two of these four men are still in prison and two of them are only out cuz they paroled out but they're on parole as convicted murderers for a crime they didn't commit so I mean I don't know it' be interesting to hear JD's perspective on that call and that I then met with him right before Thanksgiving and we had a big rally in Ohio Derek Hamilton who's the deputy director of the Pearl mutter Center was there we organized bunch of folks in the community a lot of coverage on local news and then the next day I met with JD and his team and presented ENT about a 2H hour 3our closing argument where I showed him all the evidence in the case JD what was the the whole experience uh like for you like starting from um the first contact with Josh and you know how uh your situation unfolded where you were getting wrongfully yeah um accused it all really started is because I I had developed a relationship with a woman in my office who I had known for many years and uh that that was a mistake on my part and uh it was contentious it was really beautiful for a long time like many relationships are and then it started to entangle uh disentangle and uh shocker yeah right I mean and and it was all my fault Joe I mean it was I'm really contrite about the situation because I'm very aware of my mistakes and I've made amends with her and uh and and thankfully she has uh accepted my apologies because I I put her in a position where she should have never been in as being an employee of mine but I'd known her for years I'd never really been the head of such a big office I mean it's about a 100 people um so for me it was a really big thing and uh there's a romance that goes with kind of winning an election and coming in trying to make a difference I think it swept us up and we really genuinely
cared about each other um but then it started to kind of fail and it was my fault and and I brought a lot of toxicity to the relationship that I and I don't like the word toxic I don't know why I don't but well it's compromised today yeah it is it is it is but that's exactly probably what it was and so I'm lucky that uh but so anyways there was arguments that were caught you know on camera with her and I that were released to the public and it showed us you know me arguing with her and raising my voice and uh so it was an extremely embarrassing time in my life um but so this was all happening amidst this and so it really it all really did start happening when I exonerated those Nancy Smith and Joseph Allen uh in 2022 my life changed because um I knew there would be consequences to actions like that because it it creates financial problems people are suing people in federal courts um uh so it causes problems even in the sense that I was very close with police I was a I was a County prosecutor um I was I'm a very Pro police man and so it was difficult the The Strain that it put on some of the police departments even though it was an old case you know I'm still friends with a lot of these detectives and to so to make decisions like that where you have to kind of disagree uh it can be difficult it could strain relationships and uh but I really didn't realize the extent of of how much it would do it so when I exonerated Nancy Smith and Joseph which is one of the worst cases I've ever seen um I thought that it was the worst case I'd ever seen uh and then I got Josh's case and uh after I was going through all that hardship uh basically on October 1st of 2024 I was charged with three felonies tampering with records intimidation and bribery it was shocking to me because uh I couldn't figure out what the conduct was that they were referring to so what in essence it was is is because of that Fallout from the video that were released and and she didn't have a part in the releasing the videos and so she had called us in the summer time even though we weren't really talking a bunch and she had kind of expressed her sorrow that those videos had gotten out uh and that she didn't intend for them too and that she kind of wanted some help with with the media about how can we kind of
help a little bit with the pr and my partner and my chief of staff Jim Burj who's a legend unto it unto himself um he's the best writer I've ever seen so he wrote a statement uh and we was supposed to be prepared uh for her lawyers if they wanted to review it and see if they agreed with it or change it or anything like that so uh and and to prove that that's what occurred was I have text messages from her on the day that Jim wrote the statement that says you know I trust Jim and his and his and his Magic Pen because she knew how good of a writer he was and then the next day when I'm supposed to be intimidating him according according to the state when I'm supposed to intimidate her according to the state you know you know she I received a text message of izing to this situation that we're in because I I we both were just really it was dramatic to have your personal life right in even a small town like that it was dramatic so um so that's really what happened what but what they alleged was they alleged that we had created this this false narrative this false document and then intimidated her into adopting it that was the allegation which was completely completely false and uh and we had all the evidence to prove it so I was fairly confident in my case because I'm a lawyer I've defended I was a defense attorney for 15 years before I took office so I'm fairly knowledgeable about what constitutes a good case or not and I had a great case um but the stress that have put on my family and my mother and my father just awful you know I nieces and nephews I'm a bachelor but I've got nieces and nephews with my last name and that really bothered me and so while I'm battling with this the interesting I'm charged on October 1st on October 4th and they had once we broke up in in 23 they had kind of been courting her because they knew that she was my weakness um that the contentious relationship and I think they were hoping that they would turn her on me um and so they did as much as to to exploit and try to try to utilize our relationship against me in fact the lead detective that was investigating her us uh was attempting to sleep with her at the same time attempting to sleep with her I have text messages asking for nude photographs um asking to go over her house this is while he's investigating
me Joe he's trying to sleep with my girlfriend saying stuff like um you should get back at him you should get back at him how dumb is this guy to make this in text messages I couldn't believe it when I when when she when she show you just want to you want to think the people that are evil that are manipulating people and falsely trying people they're like Evil Geniuses Joe it was an extraordinary that's why at first I didn't believe it I was like why would he write it why would he do that and then and then she shared those those uh messages with me she showed me them I didn't get to actually physically and then later I I acknowledge it but but so what it all occurred was was in 2020 I won an election I went against my own part and I ran in a primary and I ended up winning and then my my my relationship with the sheriff who actually ended up investigating me for this case that I'm referring to um we had pretty good relationship there for the first couple months when I had got elected I had asked for a couple of my deputies to be dep or a couple of my investigators to be deputized which is a pretty standard procedure he agreed and then and then he hired the individual that I had defeated in the election and the whole attitude changed everything changed it was now very contentious um he had withdrawn his uh desire to uh uh deputize my investigators the relationship turned very sour very fast when he hired my um my predecessor which is unusual to have a lawyer working in a sheriff's department anyways because statutorily I'm the lawyer for the sheriff's department so it's an unusual move to even hire a lawyer in a sheriff's department you could probably get two deputies for that kind of money so it was unusual in the sense and then so the relationship just soured and it was kind of like they were coming after me immediately and then in late 23 they actually hired then the guy that's against me another lawyer who was a former employee of mine who's now the lorine County prosecutor they had hired him so the the the the agency that was investigating me had hired my predecessor and then the individual who was now running against me uh for the office uh two lawyers first of all in a smaller town I mean it's we have about
30 300,000 a tenth maybe out of the 88 counties in line County it's fairly high but it's a small town to hire two lawyers on a on a sheriff's department is unusual and they were both my political enemies and then the then the the detectives that's investigating me is attempting to sleep with my my girlfriend so if you can think of a less objective investigation Joe I'm all ears you know what a fun workplace environment I'm telling you what was it like going to going to that office every day it was uh it was it was wild so so really what happened was on October 1st they charged me with the with the felonies I was flabbergasted because I was kind of so confident in in their inability to ever get anything like that on me that I was kind of boasting in the sense of hey all you had to do is go to a municipal court grab a complaint you can do it never thinking that it would actually happen yeah because I I I was very confident that I did anything nothing illegal so what occurred was on October 4th um it it make it makes it makes the papers on October 1st um October 4th the woman that I had a a relationship with um she uh she sees it in the paper she's walking in the store and she sees it in the paper and she sees me and uh my chief of staff who she's she was very close with and she her Instinct was to go well what did they do like she had no idea that the conduct that they had interviewed her about was actually the conduct they had used to uh to charge me so she was wondering like what the hell did we do you know she had no idea so that very same day she sent text messages to the detective the in charge uh and she said what are you guys doing these gu JD never bribed me these are false charges all this is on text message he never what are you doing you turned our personal life into charges against J this is crazy and she was emphatic that she wanted to speak with me and the problem was uh I had an order by the court that I was not to speak to her because her lawyer had represented that uh that she didn't want to speak with us so I had and she was trying to get to me to tell me what had happened but I couldn't speak with her and so she was growing more frustrated and more frustrated eventually she spoke to our
lawyers but what happened was that I was charged 30 days before the election and uh and that's devastating I mean and so what happened was on October 4th when she she sent the text message in I was entitled to those text messages those are exculpatory I was entitled those immediately and they waited a month and they waited till 2 days after the election on November 7th and then they gave me the text messages that showed everything I had said was true so dirty it was uh nobody wants to believe that that politics and that law enforcement could be that dirty so this is what's going on Wow while I'm trying to get his attention and I have no [ __ ] idea what a perfect storm oh my God so I I then when I made contact with JD he started explaining this to me and I'm very I I approach this work like a surgeon or how I picture a surgeon would approach an operation I'm singlehandedly focused on making the kidney transplant or whatever and however you want to analogize so I was hearing him but I was kind of of the mindset that those are your problems I understand this sounds wild and but I said you should now know what it feels like cuz I was pissed that he wasn't paying attention cuz these guys were so uh remarkably in my mind so demonstrably innocent JD why didn't you contact him I was going through hell I was I had been kind of attacked they've been trying to get special prosecutors on it was happening like in the cloud of it all you just you had to focus on I had to completely self-preservation for a long time Joe I was really passionate about it and uh so it was really important to me and I had never dreamed that I would ever be charged with felonies it's insane so it really we had been Jim and I had been fighting though for a year I mean we were battled torn I mean you know we always joked around about how we're gunfighters you face that way I'll face this way and we just got to fight our way out and it had been like way that way for a year so I was kind of just I was stressed uh it was very difficult to think about focusing my mind on anything else other than trying to exonerate myself first which is also good for your opponents because it makes you bad at
your job awful it it it gums everything up course I started to understand how on a national level what effects that has imagine what Trump went through it's the same it's a similar thing I I've said it before I'll say it again I don't care what your opinion is of that man to have the medal to face what he faced and continue on a path of getting anything accomplished let alone what he accomplished if you don't stand up and cheer for that no the human cost of these prosecutions you're hearing it right now yeah I mean he I still haven't gotten over it the law fair is very unamerican it's a very unamerican thing to do to unjustly accuse someone of of crimes and use your position of power to try to arrest that person and jail that person that's very unamerican well you know that's how we should all look at it instead of looking at it in terms of like parties and this is you know the these are my people these are this is against me this is for me it's bad for the country it is real bad for the country we are supposed to represent freedom on the world stage we're supposed to be the people that have the most freedom of speech the most freedom of expression the the best path to success if you're a nobody this is supposed to be a place where everybody gets a shot and if you allow the system to unjustly accuse and prosecute people for crimes that are demonstrably false that's very very unamerican and that's how we should look at it I mean instead of this [ __ ] [ __ ] my enemies US versus them you're you're kind of committing treason you're kind of you're kind of ruining everyone's if you could pull it off you ruin our faith in what this thing is supposed to be well look I think that quite obviously there are prosecutions that need to happen when someone commits a violent crime when there's domestic abuse when there's robbery the all of that that's not the what should not be lost on people because you are you saw it play out on a national stage with the president you are now hearing about it in a smaller you know not a small town but a smaller jurisdiction and the irony of this well it struck me as I was speaking to JD the
first time is here's a man that's fighting for his life and I just I mean I'll confess to you I used it to say I continually said to JD imagine you have to go through this for 30 years behind bars so when I finally got through him that night we must have spoke eight times that night yeah he was he knew that there was a problem with this case and he he was creating in his understandably so we don't have time for me to actually sit and listen to you and go through the evidence again because he had been through it before in the in the Ohio 4 case so as as Dame Fortune would have it I don't know where I heard that but as the way it the way way it worked out is that three or four days after we spoke the charges against JD were dropped the election happened yeah he gets defeated in the election it had its intended effect I guess in my opinion uh that's why else but they dropped the case so now his problem went away for the time being so he became a lot more was free singularly Focus so by the time I got to Ohio and I had a you know team of of lawyers that were representing the other three men and I I felt like I had a more captive audience at that point and um you know what happens from here and what what leads us to today is in my mind just as perverse as the irony of him getting wrongfully accused of a crime because I presented to JD and you know at one point he welled up you know to prove a negative is one of the most difficult things our standard is the presumption of innocence when someone is already convicted and they're wrongfully convicted in order for you to get someone in JD's position there he was tough on me as he should have been but I had to prove a negative because I had to prove that Al Cleveland was not in Ohio when this happened which frankly became easy to prove because we were able to show that he was in New York visiting his probation officer on a different drug case he had Damon John who of Shark Tank Fame uh was his was with him the day that this allegedly happened people saw him all over New York there were John Edwards who's my client had Alibi Witnesses all over the place and if Al Cleveland is in New York this never happened because William Avery Jr's story was that Al Cleveland
was there leading the charge and they're beating this woman to death so when I was there and I by the time I was done presenting to JD and his chief of staff they asked if they could have some time and get back to us and we said well if you guys are going to go chat we're here in Ohio you know I'd come in from New York and the other attorneys had come from other parts of Ohio and we stayed for several hours and I think he was prepared to stay there the whole night I was had already extended my trip and you know interesting because it didn't he didn't make a decision until sometime about a week later but I never asked you what your impression was at that moment after we made I had experience not only with the assistant prosecut computer that was involved in these cases uh but with the Nancy Smith matter I can't indicate to you how important that was to my thinking uh and doing 15 years of being a defense attorney I know how easy it is to for this stuff to happen it happens and so I was much I was open to it I was open to it and so I think that uh but I was free from the stress at least for that part and I was going to dedicate the rest of those two months to this issue and he W and he I think realized he told me this morning when we were talking he's he said I I knew you weren't going away You're tenacious do you think is it possible to have a thirdparty system like you know you have your prosecutors you have the defense attorneys is it possible to also have an overview by an independent group before anything gets started or people can present their evidence so you can find out if something's totally [ __ ] like well Joe it's supposed to be the grand jury system and you know what most people don't know this there's a a judge in New York that has a very famous quote which is you can indict a ham sandwich you can get a grand jury to believe anything because the standard is much lower than it is to convict it's that they have to be convinced what is it there be a probable chance of success at trial so two two issues probable cause and a success a relatively you know good chance of success at trial and who consists of the grand jury who are the members nine citizens nine citizens in Ohio there there are other jurisdictions both
federal and state where there's more but what happens is and something that the people don't know is that the defense is not allowed to present anything the defense lawyer is not allowed to be there so it is quite literally this is not hyperbole it is quite literally a onesided affair the number of cases that go be before grand juries and don't get indicted is so infinite so infinitesimal that it's probably less than 0.00001% probably not even statistically signicant J what I was asking about is an independent group of attorneys instead of having a grand jury system have a completely independent and then regulate it make sure they're independent no Financial ties no no ties to anybody that's a part of any of it and then make sure that those people that their position is to review things and make sure there's no bias and there's no [ __ ] yeah wouldn't that before you could actually say yeah let's try it out in court are you kind of saying after the arrest Joe yes when you you it should be equal sides like the prosecution side should be able to divulge their evidence the defense side should be able to divulge their evidence it should be independently reviewed by a group of completely outside attorneys that have no vested interest in the results of this whatsoever it's an interesting idea it's not a bad idea because that would you would F people would be less likely to try to commit fraud because then you would have to have some conspiratorial relationship with the people that are the independent attorneys now there'd be another paper trail it'd be a little sketchier you wouldn't know if you could pull that off that would be dangerous especially if they're completely independent you don't know them right so you you the way you could do it would you be you could you could find uh independent first of all think about the amount of money we spend in this country on [ __ ] that everybody agrees is terrible if we could funnel some I don't even want to bring up whatever political cause just if we could funnel some of that money into preserving innocence make sure that people are never tried with a crime that they shouldn't be tried with and it's not that you have a bad defense attorney and they have an awesome prosecutor nuh
it's all is this a legitimate case right and if you if you started doing that you would there would be consequences for bringing up illegitimate cases you would be investigated you could potentially face charges you've just stumbled into a what is a wormhole because you've brought up so many issues that are so mired in politics and statutes that in my mind make no sense you would be you would be upending you know such a a institution that it would cause a revolution and and it's in fact not that revolutionary of an idea it's not and and you know if it were ever if if it were ever possible uh I I would venture to say that these times make me feel like about anything as possible yeah this would be the time that something like that could get pulled off I think there's a problem and I think the problem is people are very competitive and they want to win everybody wants to win and it's important for your career if you win and when people play games they cheat they I see people cheat at pool I see I've seen professionals cheat at pool I I I you know I've seen people cheat at cards I've seen people cheat at everything people cheat they want to win it's a horrible byproduct of that instinct that we have to win when attached to a legal system that could lead innocent people to be prosecuted I was listening to um a podcast today about um the founding of Jerusalem and it was in one of the cases was a guy who was in trouble for something that he didn't commit they knew he didn't commit it and then they kept him in jail and trumped up charges and charge him with something else so it's just like this is 1948 or 47 or whatever it was this shit's been going on probably thousands of years people have been Prosecuting people for things that they didn't do knowing they didn't do it so they can win I think cops do it sometimes I've seen cops plant drugs I've seen it on video there's a ton of them online you can see cops plant guns you could see there's a one where a cop shot a guy and then pulls out a gun and throws it on the ground you could see the video of it he didn't know he was being filmed it [ __ ] happens it happens because people want to win they want to win they're playing a game and
they're in a system and the system rewards success and it it if you [ __ ] fail or if you you something falls apart and it looks bad for your career doesn't progress well you know where you can start which is an easier fix if there's accountability and I say easier fix because I don't want to throw cold water on your idea it's a fantastic idea but it just seems like pushing not a boulder uphill like a mountain and moving it do you think that's bigger than Bobby Kennedy running the HHS yeah I do I'll tell you I'll tell you why because you would be it it there's so many constitutional issues with the grand jury system and so forth but here's something that is not that difficult prosecutors have immunity there are no consequences so all of these cases where you hear people have been wrongfully convicted prosecutors don't turn over evidence that would point to their innocence that what JD was referring to when he said exculpatory that just means that would tend to prove innocence rather than guilt that's constitutionally required that prosecutors turn that over but these prosecutors don't have any accountability and you're going to see in a few minutes when we we're going to get to it what happened after JD made his decision what happened between when we filed it and today is is um if you don't have warm blood pumping through your veins if this doesn't get you in some way but yeah I I think you know I think there's an easier way to do it Joe yeah I think that you get County Prosecutors that are extraordinarily powerful in their Community it's like you know I try to tell people vote local because you know the president of United States isn't going to indict you the guy that's sitting in the County prosecutor's off it will um and so you know having experience as a defense attorney for that long it it it changes the way you think about prosecution so I think that the the easier thing is to require that uh a County prosecutor had some experience as a defense attorney because you get to see it from that perspective and you never are the same because you understand how these things happen you see it you if you practice long enough you will have a few in of clients and I don't want to get down
completely on the system because I think most of the time it works most of the time uh but when it doesn't work it's awful and it's the worst thing on the face of the planet um I think that prosecutors especially when you know they hide evidence which does occur I think they think well he's guilty I'll cheat a little bit so what you know which is insane but I but it it happens it's like that do you know that quote about capitalism the capitalism is the absolute worst way to run a country except for all the other ways right right yeah yeah but Sim it's a great quote but when will when will um this is the lesser of all the evils finally start catching up with us and it's so you know it's so politically driven if people were more aware of how politically driven some of these prosecutions are and then you you put your finger on the nerve root of of what the problem is from the standpoint of human psychology it's been happening since the beginning of time and will continue to happen until people suffer ego death and suffering an ego death requires you to look yourself in the mirror in a in an honest way and to be able to say um four magic words I made a mistake that's it and what stands in the way in my mind of prosecutors just so often not moving from their position is because they can't say I made a mistake or the office where I work made a mistake you're going to find that one of the judges that denied relief in this case of the Ohio 4 was a prosecutor in this office is friends with the current prosecutor one of the other judges that denied relief is the same judge that denied Al Cleveland post conviction relief when the six Circuit Court of Appeals the federal government says these guys Al Cleveland is likely innocent and they just shove it aside what gets in the way what gets in the way is you touched on it I want to win this is I'm not going to go against the former office I whatever swirl of emotions you know whatever it is that just has people you know when you get to that point in an argument this happens I I always give the same example because she's always right you know you get to a point in an argument where you're taking a real
strong position and the other person in this case it's my wife is always you know taking the opposite position and then you realize in the argument that you're wrong and it's often times it's like you gave me I gave you my keys to put in your purse where are they no you didn't give me your keys you took them back since then I'm like no no no I remember where I gave them to you and and then you remember in the middle of the argument oh yeah that's right she did give them back to me aesome and and and what happens is at that moment you have a choice to make you could stop which I've learned to do and say you know what I [ __ ] up you're right in my experience especially in a case like this it's just like the and that's not to Pat myself on the back there's plenty of times I dig in and I know I might be wrong but you know it's just the inability to say something bad might have happened here well and it's it's protect the state at all time at all times at all costs but wouldn't it be valuable for the people to know that the prosecuting attorneys are very ethical wouldn't that make you trust them more and want to support them more wouldn't that be good for everybody if they just said a mistake was made when a mistake was made it maintains the Integrity of it I mean Joe let me say something it might blow your mind it blue mine um when I had exonerated Nancy Smith and Joseph Allen really was the highlight of my career um can you tell me what the case was yeah it was a 94 case which is interesting because it was happening simultaneously with the same assistant prosecutor as the one that Josh is referring to uh they were accused she was a bus driver she's kind she's now become family to me so and they're big fans Joe by the way um yeah shout out um so you know I they 94 she was a bus driver for a place called Head Start for young kids she was alleged to have driven these kids after picking them up from their homes back to another individual's house a male uh and severely abused them sexually uh now the the the Broadway which is the the road where he allegedly lived off lived of was a main is a main thoroughfare through Lorraine the allegations were so wild that that you know if you can imagine seeing a school bus pull up on the Main Street watch little kids go
into a house they were alleged to have been um like punished by being tied up outside in trees which is just impossible um so this this is the alleged abuse that occurred because what happened was did someone coach the kids yes that's that's in fact that's exactly what occurred so one of the the mother that eventually got paid I think it was about 1.5 million 95 money which is amount of money um she had indicated that her daughter had been uh abused by uh Nancy the bus driver um now when the investigation occurred uh there was a detective on it that that did a very thorough investigation and after months found out that listen this is I don't even think a crime occurred you know um he was very confused by the evidence it wasn't wasn't clear um it was plain his day that he couldn't even prove that these two individuals knew one another um and so he had indicated that that basically listen I can't go forward on this I have no evidence that it's true well the the public pressure I'm assuming was was Rising uh because the the victim uh the woman that had the child uh was becoming pretty public she was organizing the other parents was as you well know you can't get these parents together and start you know talking about the case because it just compromises so much now to the police credit they would try to tell these individuals you can't meet and talk about the case but they did anyways so then a bunch of erratic stories turned into one pretty pretty substantial story that pretty much stayed all the way through is that she would drive allegedly these kids to a house and they would take them down in the basement and pretty much every child said that it was a basement that they went to um it turns out for example Joseph Smith didn't even have a basement it was a slab home I mean that's one fact out of a million facts that are true that are that are uh so disturbing about the case and so when I started to look at it the funny part is during the first three or four months of me evaluating it I had a couple investigators that with me and uh we we were reading only exculpatory information Nancy Didn't Do It um we don't think a crime occurred and I was wondering when am I going to start finding the inculpatory information when am I going to start seeing the guilt and
uh it just really never happened and so uh when I exonerated these these two individuals that were clearly innocent she had done 15 years Joe uh he had done 25 um I was in court and and my chief of staff and I had written something uh to to kind of indicate to the court and I apologized to them for what had occurred to them after the hearing uh Mark gatsy of the Ohio Innocence Project came up to me said JD I got to tell you something you're the only prosecutor I've ever heard actually apologize to a defendant Joe imagine how remarkable that statement is we took 40 Years of your life combined but we're not even going to apologize to you now probably because they're assuming that it's going to protect the state's interests better uh I'm a firm believer in that uh if the state suffers then maybe it deserves to suffer and that's Justice you know what's funny a lot of cases where I ask where I have the I represent a client in a civil rights case for wrongful conviction I sometimes give the law enforcement official during a deposition in a civil case I say you know I did it recently for clemena giri who was exonerated from Florida's death row I gave the you know the crime scene technician the the fingerprint analyst all of who played a part in his wrongful conviction I said Mr giri's here would you like to apologize to him no sir I will not yeah they won't do it so he he exonerates n Smith and Joseph Allen Joseph Allen and all of these folks that prosecuted Nancy Smith and Joseph Allen Law Enforcement uh the prosecutors they all turn on him I had no idea about anything because you apologized or because you exonerated no because I yeah I mean it was that I mean the the assistant prosecutor Rosen bom that you're that you're referring to uh with these cases he was the assistant prosecutor uh he was heavily tied in with with that office because he had been the chief prosecutor for a very long time uh under an individual by the name of Greg White who was the Lorraine County prosecutor at the time now Greg White doesn't get n mentioned you probably never even heard his name now that's interesting he was the County prosecutor during that time um he seems to have escaped criticism um I think
part of the reason is he's he's smart enough to be quiet so when these cases come out in public he doesn't say very much uh but the truth of the matter is the buck stops at the office holder so just so just so we're clear this prosecutor Rosen bomb prosecuted Nancy Smith and Joseph Allen and I believe he prosecuted all four of the Ohio four yes he did and and so when I reviewed two cases Joe two cases from this assistant prosecutor I found that six people were wrongly convicted and did about 162 years in prison that's two cases Joe the question is how many more are there out there Jesus two cases it's extraordinary it's terrifying two cases and those are the only two I I review now that doesn't mean most of them are probably good that's the way the statistics are um but I think it was uh it was pretty scary the thought of me going through all those cases and I think they knew that I was open to that type of stuff oh God and so I think that created these enemies that I never thought they would go as far as they do I just never you know maybe it's na a but I was just I never assumed that they would go that far but they they did so I after I presented to JD he he had a a cart um this is like a a popular thing with prosecutors they they wheel in a cart of evidence you know it's like a shopping cart it looks like without the full of files yeah and it's full of files and he had read a lot of it in years prior and he said he wanted to ref familiarize himself with more so I I think we both cancelled our Thanksgiving plans and got into a lot of I was annoyed because when I left Ohio it was so obvious to me that these men were innocent and that there was a terrible mistake made and a federal court never goes out of their way to say something like this I have the opinion here and I showed this to JD and his chief of staff and it says this is the way it concludes it goes through the things that the juries in the case heard that were bad about Avery that he was a liar he was a liar but it didn't have you know all these prosecutors that are trying to protect convictions and the man that's the County prosecutor now in
his motion to withdraw JD's decision to Grant these men a new trial and then dismiss the case we're going to get to this in a minute this is what ended up happening he says well these cases have gone through the courts for 30 years and that could be said about every single human that has ever been exonerated in this country the weakest argument it's the weakest argument what's the evidence that they did it and here's one court that says had the jury also been able to consider Aver's unsolicited 2004 recantation that's when he went into the FBI the 2006 recanting affidavit that's the one that Al Cleveland had in his postc conviction filings evidence that Cleveland was in New York a couple of hours before blakeley's murder and could not have flown from New York to Ohio in time to commit the murder along with the fact that there was no other evidence tying Cleveland to the crime quote that now they're quoting a case in this opinion it surely cannot be said that a juror conscientiously following the judges instructions requiring proof Beyond A Reasonable Doubt would vote to convict we find that Cleveland has presented a credible claim of actual innocence so it's amazing I it's that's that is such a rare thing for a federal court to say those things that's the federal court telling the lower courts in Lorraine County you have to give Al Cleveland a hearing it's at that hearing where the judge advises Avery Junior you know you're basically going to get charged with perjury so I I make the presentation to JD and he spends roughly the next 5 days you know at some point we were joking to each other and there was a lot of arguing because he wanted to go out to the apartment where the alleged beating took place and he did and he was reading lines of transcript from four different trials and he'd say well what about this what about that and I just said you know what I'm going to cancel my Thanksgiving he canceled his and I was just there to answer any question he had and there weren't really many questions of substance and I started to realize the second or third day that he's looking for something to say they're
guilty he's looking for some evidence and every around every corner he looked he would say things to me like what what what is going on here why in the world would this happen and why how is it it's so OB you know i' I'd be curious ious as to what your thought process was before you finally told us I couldn't believe they were ultimately convicted I couldn't believe that there were four trials where where people believed Avery you know I never told you this story Josh but I knew one of the lawyers for one of the uh the defendants but I won't mention names um and I heard from a good source that would hang around with him in the office on Saturday that like almost like almost every Saturday one of the defendants would call him and after the phone call he would cry because he he would say that man does not deserve to be there and I screwed it up oh yeah and and so and and I and when I heard that it it made sense to me because what in Josh's right I was looking for some reason uh why I was making the wrong decision you know it's a big decision to to decide to maybe try to free four people from prison I want to be sure I want to get there you have to look at it from all angles you have to and and I I appreciated Josh's tenacity because that's what good defense attorneys do but I had to get there myself and so uh I had a I had a I wanted to take my parents to Mexico City I called my mom said we're not going to Mexico City not happened so we just stayed and I I just but it was so it was almost therapeutic for me because I had been so much stress on my own case it was nice to divert attention away from me and trying to think about something else so I really immersed myself in it and I went to Crime Scene which I always believe def defense attorneys should go to every every case I had I went to the crime scene I learned something that I didn't know um but I eventually got there and and it was extraordinary though Not only was this case just on this this individual Avery Junior's testimony he might have been the worst Witness ever seen in my life I mean so not so Not only was there no physical evidence that that linked these men to it the only witness that was present was perhaps the worst I'd ever seen and and you know what the federal court is saying is that yeah they could damage his credibility
at trial but they didn't know obviously because he does it later that he made the whole thing up and they didn't know that he's admitted he made the whole thing up and importantly W who walks in solicited nobody to the FBI and says here's what I did and I want to clear my conscience and I'm I want to tell you what I did that'd be a hell of a double cross yeah and it's a crime to lie and I I knew I started to feel like oh okay we're about to get Hometown small town something bad is happening here because this should have been a moment to here we are myself um my co-counsel we're about to change the trajectory not of just these four men's lives but of their families that have lived under the crushing weight of these wrongful convictions for three decades my client John Edwards and Al Cleveland and the other two as well lenworth and Benson you know JN is in al is out but Al is suffering you know the most horrific psychological damage you can imagine and John calls me from prison all the time JD tells us that he is going to file a joint motion joint meaning between defense counsel and the prosecutor to Grant these men a new trial that's the procedural mechanism based on new evidence based on new evidence which is the 2004 recantation which they never had the benefit of of taking the trial that evidence was never seen and then the 2006 affidavit and that once the new trial was granted he would dismiss the case so that all gets filed in front of one judge because it really should have been a matter of procedure um in all my years of doing this 25 years 24 years I've never seen a judge do anything other than have the hearing and respect what the prosecutor has filed for and asked for especially when it's joined by the defense so all of a sudden the judge that this is filed before is silent now the clock is ticking because now we have the whole month of December and after January 6th he's out of office and right away within a few days of us filing this joint motion there's a newspaper article that comes out what's your local paper again local the chronicle Telegraph Telegraph or teg the chronicle telegram and it has the person that just defeated him in the
election his name is Tony silow it has comments from him and from this prosecutor Rosenberg saying that I don't understand what the rush is I don't understand you know essentially saying wait until I take office I Tony silow take office and I want to review this and I thought that that was really interesting because he's someone that worked in that office he's someone that actually played a role in some of the investigation that I believe should have taken place when he was a prosecutor in that office and he did not have the benefit of the thorough uh investigation that JD had done and he's a private citizen until he takes office so I found that to be interesting and all of a sudden a brief gets filed from the Attorney General of Ohio saying whoa It's a brief that gets filed to the court where we filed this joint motion for a new trial and the Attorney General gets involved you don't have to look far to see other attorney generals getting involved in criminal cases right that's happened on a national stage happened in New York and he basically is taking the position that this man we this should all wait until Tony silow takes office and I thought what this is weird why then I come to find out that Tony Sila used to work at the Attorney General's office so I started to have hope when the judge one of the judges in the case because I won't bore you with the details but the cases get sent out to different judges that were assigned to each man's case and what the judge says is the AG's motion this is a quote this is from an order from The Honorable Chris Cook the AG and this is dated December 23rd the AG's motion is not to advocate for either party to this litigation which in most situations is the sole purpose of filing an amicus brief but instead to ask this court to delay ruling on the pending motions until such time as the newly elected lorine County prosecutor is in office and the victims can be notified neither of these purported reasons to opine on this litigation are persuasive or necessary
to Aid the court first the AG argues that the current prosecutor will be leaving office shortly referring to JD within the next two weeks in fact and any ruling should be delayed in order to allow the incoming prosecutor to evaluate the matter and weigh in on the issues but this reason is hardly compelling after all all elected officials eventually leave office and to suggest that simply because a newly elected prosecutor is taking over a pending matter should be delayed for the incoming official to review is unwieldy incon inconvenient invites delay and not how the system operates moreover why should rulings or evaluation of this case be singled out and subject to delay in favor of the new Administration but not the other 50 pending criminal cases on this court stocket at the end of the day the concept that a court or any government entity for that matter should come to a grinding halt because a newly elected official will be taking over is not how government should or does work shout out to that guy yeah put that thought on hold because three days later three days later now this is curious what changes in three days well I don't know if it happened during these three days but this is the prosecutor I mean this is the judge that swears in the new prosecuting attorney three days later there is another Mo another order filed by the same judge and because we had moved for an emergency hearing because in our mind this incoming prosec opines on the case in the paper had worked at that prosecutor's office and obviously had some feeling about the case and if he had taken such an interest in talking to the Press we were concerned and filed an emergency motion not to let these men suffer any longer so the same judge that you just said shout out which was exactly my sentiment issues another order you could not get a a more Stark 180 degree turn than this I'm going to quote from that order how can it be possibly an emergency that a hearing and potential ruling be accomplished in a matter of
weeks for a case in cases that have been pending for almost three decades not to mention four years on the current Prosecutor's watch more over no rational person would conclude that a change in County prosecutor constitutes an emergency an inconvenience to the move to the movements arguably a delay in rulings no doubt but an emergency I don't think so in addition to the to the lack of emergency two additional but troubling issues are apparent by this motion this is 3 Days Later first the movements go to Great pains to paint the incoming prosecutor is incapable of Fairly and rationally evaluating the defendant's claims of innocence and request for new trial to pause there because this man had sat and listened to and Dove through and tore through this entire trial record so yeah we had concerns that we would face further delay it already agreed we filed this is often times right away the court will call a hearing and Grant the relief so the judge goes on to say this effort is unfounded Contra the movement's Reliance on a newspaper article that's the one I was talking about the same article quotes prosecutor Alex silow as saying he would review the matter a new just like prosecutor Tomlinson did and it goes on to say second even more troubling is the movement's assertion that Tomlinson's successor has no authority to to review agreements made by Tomlinson I've never seen this in an opinion before Oh really with a question mark the movement's right that Mr Tomlinson's successor has an obligation to honor the good faith decisions made by the prior Administration JD and it then goes on to use the Head Start case the Nancy Smith case and Joe Allen where he granted these people I mean he he exonerated these people he then goes on to to throw it in their face in my opinion he says recall the Head Start case and he goes through make personalizing this and saying that because JD Tomlinson exonerated these people there thereby undoing a prior administration's prosecution that why should the same not apply to you so in other words 3 days before he says why should Justice wait 3 days
later he says what wait a second um this should wait and it should wait and by the way here's one to poke this man in the eye because he exonerated people you're undermining the decision of a prior Administration so he's using his granting of innocence in my opinion to now go back on what he said 3 days earlier which is why should this wait what happened these 3 days I don't know but I can tell you that you've taken position a and then you've taken position Z so what happens is on the these judges one of the judges the one that denied Al Cleveland postc conviction relief that you know said to Avery Jr you know uh there are potential consequences here he denies The Joint motion for a new trial for Al Cleveland based on nothing he doesn't call a hearing this is in December he says I'm not I'm I'm denying it he then he then this man silow takes office all the other judges deny it by the way or or delay it the other judges punted until the new prosecutor comes to office and you don't think this is personal this man's second day in office Tony silow takes office his SE his first order of business is to withdraw The Joint motion on behalf of the state so he undoes everything that we did because he worked at that office because he's friends with these guys I don't know but I'd like to know and to make these men suffer is is truly at this point it's really really difficult to understand the craziest part about these is that this judge cook in that first opinion he said the AG cites as one of the reasons why this should be delayed is that the victims have to be notified he notified the victims and the judge said calls them on it here so this is this is like um it's fascinating well you know you know I have I must have a caveat because I do love and respect Chris Cook um I really do he's he's been there for me a lot in my career um where I disagree with his opinion is the idea that I didn't have any experience with the idea that maybe Tony silow couldn't be objective and I think where I where I diverge from Judge cook is that I had a very real experience on why Tony silow
couldn't be objective when I when involving the Nancy Smith case he was involved in that case in the later stages of it and uh in my my humble opinion Joe anybody that looks at that case and doesn't do the right thing is just it's scary it's so I did have an experience and I know that the relationship that he shares with uh attorney rosenbom who's the assistant prosecutor I know that was a mentor um Protegé type relationship and so the idea that he's going to be objective in undoing such a major case for someone that's arguably his mentor is almost impossible to conceive and so I knew that I had to be quick about it because if I wasn't quick about it I don't think it would ever be done and I still don't think it'll ever get done well I I refuse to think it won't get done it's it's hope it does it's interesting to me that I had spoken to Mr Sila when he took office and his first my conversation with him wasn't about all the reasons they're innocent he said you know there's this phone call between Al Cleveland and his dad where they're talking about um giving Avery money and I said what are you talking about and I went and read the transcript it's about them giving him money in 2006 for his EXP enses to put him in a hotel room so he could feel safe with a court reporter and to do the affidavit and I felt like saying you know so let me get this straight you your office pays this man reward money he then tries to extort your office for more money in exchange for Testimony he is gone into the FBI before this affidavit was ever a thing he went into the FBI and admitted he made the whole thing up and you want to talk about a conversation between Al Cleveland and his father when they're talking about whether or not they could reur him for expenses if they have to fly him to Florida or you know get him to a place where he feels safe cuz he felt like if he told the truth again that there would be consequences for him because he was going against his father he'd be labeled a snitch in the community and you know I I then emailed him and asked him for a meeting and uh I didn't hear back I heard back finally last week for the first time that we have a meeting with him on March
18th and I found that curious timing and I said to JD this morning did you tell anyone you were coming on the show and he looked at me and it's a small town and word travels fast so I have my suspicions but I I would make Tony silow the following offer uh two things if you have any evidence that the these men actually did this any whatsoever with your blessing Joe I'd offer him a seat right next to me to show the world sure what the evidence is you tell me what the evation come on on and how about this rather than do this behind closed doors on the 18th how about let's open it to the public I just argued for a sentence commutation before Governor DeSantis last week it was a public hearing I had been told just as I heard from JD it just gives me fuel I don't think it'll happen I was told that he is never publicly listen to a sentence computation ever and you know what it happened and he listened and he's considering the case and I feel like if we talk with each other and not at each other we can get to the right place and I'm not this I I want to be really clear I have deep respect for what prosecutors do I have deep respect for Tony 's commitment to Public Service I don't know the man I don't know him personally I don't know anything about him but I do find uh I find it really difficult to understand why he took such an interest in this case such that he blocked Justice from happening and withd Drew the state's position how about hear us out and meet with us before you withdraw The Joint motion to dismiss how about that how about you um hear the evidence before making it the first Like official act or among the first official acts it was just it's so I don't I'm not optimistic going in but I can tell you this I have found something as recent as yesterday where alternative suspects were brought to the attention of the Lorraine County prosecutor and wouldn't you know that the person assigned to investigate these alternative suspects and and to liaz with the police department was one Tony silow I saw that document for the first time yesterday so what do you think that
could mean I don't know what it means I'd like I have a lot of questions I do you what did you do to investigate these men one of their one of their ex wives says that he was cleaning bloody clothes the night of the Marsha Blakeley murder and he knew her I don't know what it means but I'd like to know I have questions you know what is it truth crushed to Earth truth crushed to Earth shall rise again it always the truth comes out at some point and I am I am uh singularly focused on finding out as much truth as I can about this case and I just won't let up until I find it something's wrong and I want to figure out what it is but these men are suffering they should have been out in December and to continuously needlessly delay the process hard to imagine you know Joe I think we're also getting in this dangerous territory where we're not I mean the idea that you could ever prove them guilty with this evidence objectively is impossible now we're getting in this dangerous territory where we're having to prove their innocence and I and and that's a that's a that's significant because that is not the standard and so when the case is that bad that you have to then just continue to try to find out ways to prove these guys inocent which is it's difficult I was talking with my father I said I can't prove you didn't kill Marsha Blakeley on August 8th 1991 I can't prove that so we're in this dangerous territory now where we're trying to actually just argue actual innocence and the standard is proof Beyond a reasonable doubt it's not even close it's not even close you know and where do I scary yeah now all I want to do is what I want to do is do what I did with Jade is to say you know how many times in your life do you have a chance to say you know something was really wrong and I helped make it right and and Tony silow has that chance I mean how many moments are there when you have the ability to impact other human beings in a way to set them literally free and to end the most unfathomable of nightmares and he has that chance I'm trying to appeal to you know I don't want there to be some nefarious
conclusion drawn from maybe he did investigate alternative Sussex maybe there is an explanation for it one thing I know for sure is that no one has been able to show me any physical evidence any eyewitness account and actually we been able to prove their innocence what constellation of of Fate would come together so that you could show to a a factual certainty that Al Cleveland was not in Ohio on the 9s killings took place he meets with his probation officer and he's seen by multiple people and you know what more do you need need that's standing alone that you know and then you factor in Avery saying I made it all up and you factoring the fact that the story he tells is bed by the physical evidence it should it is so easy to put people behind those bars and it is a um it it takes almost a a miracle to fight their way out so am I hoping for a miracle here I hope not I hope that these individual ual that are presiding over this put whatever it is aside that is causing them to hang on and say you know what we just got this one wrong we can't stand by this and think about this also the only person to ever Place themselves at the murder scene is Avery Jr he's the only one and he's the only one that wasn't charged it's fascinating he admitted basically to being complicit fair enough I mean you're at the murder it's happening you're there you're the only one that has been charged uh in fact I think maybe one of the facts you left out Josh is in 2004 he implicated his own father Avery senior who went went to the police originally he said I think he killed her I think he killed her and and told me to tell that story to cover up not only his guilt and killing that he did know Marsha Blakeley there was some some some reports that they had a contentious relationship um so you know it's very likely that you know the two individuals that that implicated these individuals may have been involved with the crime it's it's it's fascinating and and you know I've just never seen cases like this before like I said I can't stress it enough if I took this case to a bunch of fifth graders they would be objectively able to see that this is a crazy bad case I mean it's it's not even close and and and for the retort to be
well four juries saw it another way and Court saw it another way that's not true these juries did not see that this man said I made it all up right and you know it it always leads to this place like what do we do you know I um if you're a citizen of Lorraine County you want to feel that this couldn't happen to you regardless of what your background is I would think that the citizens of Lorraine County would at some point Demand Action here these men are not Expendable whether you disagree with look I'll be the first one to say it on behalf of my client on behalf of Al Cleveland and the others they're not proud of the fact that they were dealing drugs back then they're not proud of the life they were living that's not a reason to pin a murder on them absolutely and you know the reality is if you grew up where they grew up and you live their life you're probably selling drugs too 100% that's reality nobody likes that everybody's got that pulled them up by their bootstrap [ __ ] in their head that's not real that's not real you grow up in crime you commit crime 100% it's not 100% that one if you grow up in crime you got to commit crime some people get out some people realize the Folly of other people's ways and they have Incredible strength and resolve and discipline we get extraordinary people from those circumstances whether it's in athletics or art or music comedy there's a lot of people that grew up in horrific circumstances they became very extraordinary because of that pressure but that's not normal the normal thing is everybody gets beaten down by what's around you you imitate Your Atmosphere you're you're a part of a system that seems inescapable to all your family to all your friends people getting locked up getting out they're getting murdered they're selling drugs it's that's your reality and if you grew up in [ __ ] Connecticut and you go to private school and you're you're sitting here talking [ __ ] about this like you you're so [ __ ] lucky you don't know how lucky you are to get if you're a person that's never committed crimes never gone to
jail and never done anything horrible you're so lucky that's right you're so lucky you're so lucky you didn't have to shoot somebody who was uh stealing money from you because you're both involved in some crime together and he was going to kill you and all a sudden you're in jail you're like what the [ __ ] have I done that's there's people out there doing that there's people out there that are committing crimes wishing they didn't have to commit them wishing they had some sort of Pathway to life or some life skills or some education or counseling or mentorship or something that have given them a path to to get out of there and be what everybody wants to be a normal healthy person who's enjoying their life enjoying their family enjoying their friends and hopefully you get to make a living doing something you like doing too that's what everybody [ __ ] wants right just everybody doesn't grow up in the right circumstances some people just get a [ __ ] roll of the dice right out of the gate pop out of the vagina right into chaos that's it's like Chris Rocky had that joke you know kind of depends on what vagina you fall out of toally right I mean I got lucky me my parents I didn't come from money Jo but my parents are still together they cared about what I was doing did you get your homework done did you get your homework done you know I mean and I I remember having these clients and it really taught me a lot where it's like they never even had a shot some they didn't never shot I mean so many of these people they're just growing up abused physically mentally they're seeing drug addiction in the household it's just you know it's not the same for everybody so yeah it sucks that they were selling drugs it sucks that anybody sells drugs it sucks that people die of overdoses it s sucks that people get addicted all that sucks but that's not murder that's not what these people did and you can't charge people for [ __ ] they didn't do you know and I and I do I I I've been called a lot of things one of them that I take exception to is being called a race biter I find that really who calls you that problematic you know trolls on the internet they don't matter stop reading comments I know I but but one of the things one of the things right it's a robot one of the
things that people should read if you want a better understanding of what it's like to grow up a a minority in this country or black in America again four black men in a very white community that were from out of town and drug dealers so read cast by Isabelle Wilkerson and you know before you go judging what is going on in terms of you know your perception that people should pull their yourself up by them their bootstraps you tribe being born into a cast system oh c c and we are a country and I'm not on my soapbox this is a fact and if you can dispute anything in Isabelle wilkerson's book this is a cast system that exists in America since its Inception and the experience of a black American in this country is different than that of a white American so I think that these wrongful convictions happen disproportionately to people of color for a reason and we have to start changing minds and we have to start getting people to come back to I don't know what's more innate is it innate to be to find the humanity within ourselves or is it more Nate to tear each other down we all have that decision to make I don't know what it is about human beings where there's some sort of you know ostensibly like some satisfaction in the tearing down of another yeah I know where that comes from it comes from a weakness within you it comes from a hole that you're trying to fill what we should want is you know uplifting these people that have been born into circumstances that are just different I come from a middle middle class family you know sometimes trending toward the lower end my dad had a Knockaround guy from Brooklyn my mom was a school teacher and I think that going through some of those struggles set me up for success and to learn how to scrape a little bit but I didn't have the experience of someone that was born in Watts or bever Styers or or Harlem I just didn't and you know I I'm a little less quick to judge me too that you know if more people had your sentiment Joe right that sometimes it's a little bit deeper than you think as to why someone resorts to committing a crime it's almost always deeper than you think I mean I'm not a a full believer believer in determinism because I think will is real I think
free will there's there's an element of Will and that's one of the reasons why we seek inspiration from others right we we inspiration is fuel for will you know um whether it's uh reading or just watching how people live their lives by example that that's that fuels people to make better decisions is that a part of determinism if it is maybe I do believe in it but I think that there's there's a certain aspect of will but you can't deny circumstances you you can't deny en environmental influences you can't deny poverty you can't deny growing up abused you can't deny those things we have a real problem in this country is that we we only treat the side effects we only treat the symptoms of this greater problem the symptoms of the crime the side effect that they're a side effect of poverty of uh horrible environments and that never get fixed and that probably a lot of them are there because of Redline laws and because of uh Jim Crow laws all of it started out in you know in the 1950s and 60s when they started making these places where you literally couldn't sell to black people I mean there's tracks of Baltimore that were like sectioned off where you you could not sell these areas to black people you would love this book I mean you the cast by Isabelle Wilkerson I feel like a paid spokesperson for it but she talks about how you know there's very real consequences from the the Practical implications of what Jim Crow laws did to fragmenting our society and it's not it's not as if this went on a thousand years ago right it's it it would take hundreds of years to mellow out you know this is like you're you're talking about the the Civil Rights Movement you can watch videos on YouTube of them sicking dogs on protesters you can watch that it's from the 1960s you could see all that that's my childhood that's when I was a baby that was going on okay you know here I am an adult and there's people alive that experienced that went through it and then their children went through it because they carried that trauma and you know resources is so important when it comes to defending yourself too I mean I remember when I was a kid I watched the OJ trial and what 8 million can do is pretty extraordinary you know you can have juries that are simultaneously going on you're testing theories out the
trials going um and you know a lot of these guys that get charged with crimes they kind of get ushered through the system you know sometimes they'll get a good appointed attorney sometimes they won't that one to me seemed like that was going to go that way anyway because of Rodney King I don't think that had anything to do with being a good jury system or whether or not the prosecutors weren't as good as the defense attorneys I think that was just hor [ __ ] kind of a foregone conclusion yeah the way he's trying on the glove like get the [ __ ] out of here going to just slip it on it was a circus but it was also a wakeup call to people that just because someone's guilty doesn't mean they get convicted that that you could see it that way too I remember watching that case watching how um they they did it live on television the verdict and I remember being in my apartment going whoa this girl I was dating at the time she started crying she couldn't believe it I I uh I remember where I was when that ver was read I was shucking oysters at Barnacle Bills on North Monroe when I was a student at Florida State wow and I remember uh feeling like something really awful had just happened but I understood it because of Rodney King and I understood it not just because of Rodney King because of what had happened to the community in Los Angeles that for decades had been abused by police now whether or not one wrong begets another and whether that's rough Justice you know I don't even feel like I'm in a position to to say I don't think that there's ever been a more guilty person put on trial than OJ Simpson pretty [ __ ] guilty I mean you have the victim's blood in your car in your house I mean extraordinary somebody gave me a copy of that book that he wrote if I did it and my wife threw it out did you even get to read it let me read it no I never was going to read it it's one of those books I was just going to put on the Shelf I just watched the news [ __ ] is that you know there's certain books you have somebody in your office you go look somebody gave me this book I'm not reading it's so difficult because you know one one thing that always stuck with me about that case is the and I won't mention them by name the moral High Ground that some of the lawyers involved have taken you know on
various social and Criminal Justice Reform issues and always in the back of my mind I'd be like you [ __ ] defended OJ sson what are you talking about that's number one and the second part of it is the the human cost behind that tragedy also I have these seared images into my brain of that Goldman family the sister and the father yeah where they were very outward with their torment and I recently watched the I I'm a sucker for it I guess I'm admitting it um for true the true crime genre but I watch the latest documentary there's a new one on Netflix there's always a new one on OJ o and it's very well done and it's like 30 years later and I know that there have been a few this one is excellent and you know Kim Goldman is still this ruined her life and you know on the flip side you have these you know when there's a wrongful conviction that was in my mind a tragedy going the other way but when there's a wrongful conviction it's not just the people that are in there doing all the suffering it's their families it's their kids you know there is it has a ripple effect where there is a community of people fighting for them and I just wish I had some sort of magical power to pull these prosecutors into what that emotional tumult is like I was grateful that I had you know JD was able to let his guard down and I don't know but for his experience being wrongfully accused of something and you know that he would have have had the openness to hearing it and you know the the way that he was charged with a crime without a grand jury and I don't think that there's a person Among Us that if in your in your worst moments if someone was recording you and you're saying things you wish you didn't say to a significant other that's that's what he did that's the crime I mean hey I'll tell on myself there are things that I've done that if someone was recording it or things that I've said that I wish I didn't do or say that you know but for the grace of God go they're they're I [ __ ] it up but you know I mean I any anyone in their private moments you know and then to just use that to weaponize and and undermine you know to me is he a perfect man no he's not a perfect man doesn't exist yeah am I saying it because he ended up agreeing
with me no has he's a he's a human that erors just like all of us and I I think we need more prosecutors more judges like this man that have been on both sides of it and are willing to set their egos aside willing to S willing to suffer whatever consequences come from it you know he told me at one point he when he was nervous about doing this these people ruined my life because I exonerated two people he said they've been after me ever since and the fact that that sort of one-upsmanship and that competitiveness that you referred to earlier it's just sad to me that we can't get over ourselves enough what bothers me so much is that um I gave him that opening I gave them that opening and somebody was hurt that I cared about very much and and and used and exploited and it's not like they're calling her today going hey how are you doing are you doing okay I mean it was simply you know political it was just political in in its entirety and uh I I feel like I had a lot more years Joe to kind of look at these kind of cases because I was open to it and you know when I when I mentioned that that those are just the only two I reviewed how many more are there and I'll never see them and it was because of a mistake I made and do you think you're going to run again you know I really loved I really Lov the experience of politics I was a door to-door guy Joe I didn't have any in the beginning cuz nobody gives you money when you first start and so I just went door to door like 8 nine hours a day my dad would take me my dad's 75 now but he was 70 and he would you're a big [ __ ] I wouldn't let you in my house i' be like this guy's going to rob me brother you'd be surprised you'd be surprised just let you right in you know what it's it's um too dangerous I got really good at kind of at reading somebody when they came to the door how quickly I could be how how how much time I could take my goal was to get you to smile uh be happy that I show up and then leave before you ask me to leave um and uh I really enjoyed doing this I really I thought it was going to be the rest of my career was going to be politics and so I'm at this kind of interesting Crossroads
where I don't really know what I'm going to do next well hopefully this conversation will help you in that regard yeah maybe you know I'm sure it will and I'm I'm hoping that all the stuff that you revealed will cause people and let's be as charitably charitable about this as possible to just review things and maybe uh take the correct approach I hope it does it seems like if if you expose something to this extent that you have today it seems like something has to be done and if you you can't just allow this to go on there's too much too much we know now yeah and too much that's been revealed I don't want egos to get in the way well I also think that you know if there's more lurking beneath it's going to get found out at some point you know we've we filed a public records request with the AG's office so that we could see what Communications occurred between if any between the incoming prosecutor Silo and Yos who's the AG of Ohio were entitled to that and you know at the time this decision came out the first decision from Judge cook the we filed a public records request with him and he sent it to us and it turned out that well I don't know if it was before or after this decision but this guy Rosen balb was the one I believe that made the request or or that um sent an email to judge cook saying you were at the Lorraine County prosecutor's office in the past maybe you shouldn't be sitting in Judgment of this so there are Communications that that must exist I would think between the AG and the prosecutor but yeah all this will come to light and we have we're not going anywhere we're going to keep on pushing until and the the easy thing to do is just all we're asking is look at the objective facts that's why I want to do it I think what what would help you know in terms of Reform is what's the downside of hearing this out publicly let me make my presentation to you and make it a public hearing what what what uh is there what's the downside of the community knowing what evidence exists against these four men or the lack of evidence and I just hope we we end up connecting with with them on some sort of human level so that they um can put whatever it is aside that is causing them to have
this push back and you know the these I used to be way harder on myself about making a change happen and you know this because I've you've watched my evolution in that regard and I just realized we just got to keep you know building the sand castle one grain at a time and when you again I said it before I'll say it again when you walk handin inand with another individual and helping restore their freedom I don't care there's nothing like it yeah there's no drug there's no material there's just nothing that can match that feeling of having of playing a role in that and helping them just live out their days breathing free air you know what I find most interesting and and Nancy exonerates this is like the lack of bitterness is pretty amazing in some of these Exon you know you're dealing with somebody that that did 15 years for Crime not only that they she didn't commit but that no crime occurred and she's still not bitter and they still fight her at every moment right now she's battling you know you know there's a statutory remedy for getting paid when you're an innocent individual when you're in jail but you have a relatively high standard of proving your innocent to get the money there's nobody in a better position to prove they're innocent than Nancy Smith and Joseph Allen and they still fight them too and nail every day I mean after the case exonerated him I tried my hardest to uh to uh forgo the interest of the state and I actually um stipulated in a motion that they were innocent which is very unusual because obviously that's uh acknowledging that the state screwed up pretty big and because my goal was to get her paid I mean you know I got criticized you know from some people um that basically you know that that shouldn't be my role but my role is you know if hurting the state um represents Justice then that's what happens and and sometimes it's costly you put someone in prison for 15 years because you were reckless in the way you did it uh then they should deserve comp compensation and she was at the peak of her earning years you know she was a middle class woman but she was at the peak of her life and you know I think what I really want to get out today is Amber is her daughter and she's got several uh children and they've become like family
to me and Amber wanted to make sure that I told you how big of a fan she was Joe um but shout out to Amber shout out to Amber she's going to love that but the the truth of the matter is I got to know them and I got to know the fact that like their stories the untold story imagine having your mom leave you and then for the worst allegations that you could possibly have is child station and so every day they had to fight in school every day and uh the older brother had to take care of the family and the fact that she's still fighting to to to get paid 50 something thousand a year for the time that she was in that's what the statutory remedy is and they're still fighting it every minute eventually I had to get off so crazy it's so crazy it's like it's like such a small amount of money it happens in every it happens in every state I was on the way here I just took his card out of my wallet I was on the way up here and I was sitting next to a guy that I asked to borrow his phone cord to charge my phone and we started talking and it turns out he's uh in the Florida House of Representatives his name is John Snider Marine Core veteran wasn't a lawyer which make which made him um in many ways a heck of a lot more down to earth um and he told me he got into politics cuz he was like tired of complaining and wanted to actually do something different and we got to talking where are you going I told him where I was going he happened to have you he happened to be listening to you and and Elon from the other day and uh I said I'm actually going there and he said um you know I'm a Republican and growing up in this party was all tough on crime and now I sit through the claims Bill process a claims bill in Florida is when you have been wrongfully incarcerated and you're asking the legislator to compensate you and he said it changed my entire perspective on you can be for a position or against a position but you don't understand the subtleties and the vagaries until you're in it and to have somebody and then he took out his card and gave it to me and he said if there's any way I can help there's some bills pending and that kind of openness and that kind of you know he struck me as a guy that was super comfortable with himself and
secure with himself to be able to have that approach and if we could all have that approach I'm not right about I've [ __ ] up plenty I'm not right about every position I take I'm just trying to find you know some common ground the humanity in all of us should always bend toward the truth right and that's what we mean when we say we want Justice for these men that's what we want it's undeniable how could anybody argue with that no you know it's pretty well laid out when we when we talked about that 2008 hearing with Al Cleveland I was a young attorney I was probably 27 and I'd only been practicing for a year and I remember being in there waiting for my case to be called I had another client and I saw one of the most unbelievable um interactions I've ever seen in a courtroom still this day was out Cleveland begging William Avery Jr to tell the truth begging him and I didn't know exactly what the facts were I later found out but you know I'm sitting in this courtroom watching what seemed to be very genuine emotion um and and and a man begging another man just to tell the truth so he can get out of prison and it and it stuck with me and uh and even now it's like Al's a very charismatic guy you know what's what's what's devastating is what was his potential well Al Al and his wife Roberta are remarkable still married still married married the whole time Joe crazy and you know John Edwards is still suffering he's in prison Benson Davis and lenworth Edwards you know my message to the four of you is I won't stop fighting unfortunately for my mental health and but fortunately for your prospects I'm going to keep digging until I get you guys free and um thank you again I always want to make sure I show my gratitude to continuing to give this forum it makes a huge difference I mean if if anybody not saying it makes a huge difference is a terrible understatement in my wildest dreams if someone would have said to me the prosecutor that agreed to set these men free would be sitting next to you on the show I would have I would have bet the house against it and I think that this is just an remarkable Forum to be able to tell these stories and to get into the level of detail
where we can touch people and I um there's too many people in Criminal Justice Reform that don't extend you know their hand to prosecutors and you know people in law enforcement and I have it's been an eye openening and Incredibly rewarding experience to get to know these folks that feel just as passionate about issues that are on the other side and that's what you know has led me more to the middle and um you know I thank you for your Humanity JD and I I hope you do run for something again because we need more people like you in those seats well you know I appreciate you saying that I think that um like you said humility is important and uh I've always tried to pride myself on on um admitting when I'm wrong and knowing when I'm wrong and knowing when I don't know I think one of the problems I see in society now is like everybody wants to know and they don't know right and and it's it's it's like um sacrilegious to say you don't know right and and I find that to be really it's just lying you know if you're just guessing you're just lying really and so it's foolish yeah and so I try to always put my ego in check and and I'm telling you I can't stress enough that doing Defense work is really what allows that vision for me to kind of understand where it can happen because I've had innocent clients and and in my experience you know it was most likely domestic violence cases um because you know passions arise there's cheating going on there's infidelity you know emotions run high it's easy to make accusations um and so those were the scenarios now obviously I got to make a caveat there's very terrible domestic violence cases that are awful but be because of the dynamic between the victim and the and the perpetrator um that seemed to generate in my view any cases that I had where that were innocent typically were cases like that where for example the allegations didn't match up so you know someone said they struck their head on the curb but there was no injuries you know stuff like that but it's so easy to get probable cause probable cause is very easy and so you know I was so lucky when I got charged I joked around with Jim Burge my uh my codefendant and Mentor for many years uh who taught me a lot was thank God I've got the smartest lawyer as a codefendant
ever you know and thank God you know because I mean you know I was I and I also learned that I'm probably not the best client as a lawyer uh I used to [ __ ] about clients like me and I think I'm that way you know I'm sitting in the defense table trying to dictate everything to my lawyer you know it's like I wasn't the best client and and shout out to Mike who was our lawyer who really had to deal with me um but the truth of the matter is when you when it happens to you I I the only thing I disagree Josh is um even if it didn't happen to me I knew that it could happen I would have listened no matter what um I think that uh you know I was briefed about this case in 2022 23 I was invited down to Cincinnati for a um Ohio uh Innocence Project but I think I was probably the only prosecutor in there uh but I got to be honest I never really felt comfortable in the in um we would go to Ohio Prosecuting Association meetings my my mentor and I and um we never really fit in I mean prosecutions they're fantastic but you know they're almost like the hall monitors in class you know what I mean and I always just thought defense attorneys were much more fun to hang out with but but uh but we always kind of and we would because I have so much respect for defense attorneys you know I remember the the the presenters would go up and kind of clown on defense attorneys and and I look around and me and Jim are the only ones pissed off you know we were pissed off going hey what the hell you know defense attorney trying to do their thing man the opposing team it is the opposing quarterback's a [ __ ] and that's the problem and that's the problem right there Joe is is really we're all looking for the same thing Justice and you hit it right on the head it's about winning and I almost trust I trust police much more than I almost do prosecutors because it seems like there's an inherent um desire for them to get it right and it's it's more of of the prosecutors that want to win yeah and uh I just had such a great experience with law enforcement and it they changed my mind because I I didn't really like the narrative and I critic ize my own party about it the anti- you know law enforcement rhetoric is just unwarranted agreed it's a terribly difficult job
that gets no reward and your life is in danger every day and Joe when I was County prosecutor I had about 10 police involved shootings with fatalities in four years so about two a year two or three year every one of them was good every one of them was good and you know I would get with the officers and I had a policy which is a little unusual where if I made a decision that that a shooting was good I would make a decision that's it and never went to the grand jury uh it's easy for prosecutors to kind of just dish it off over the grand jury then that's not their responsibility anymore uh but I felt like I wasn't going to put something through the grand jury that I didn't believe in so I had officers that uh you know the the difficult part about being a police officer is when you have to use that lethal force and then you get people armchair quarterbacking it for the next six months do you know what I mean on what you should have done what you shouldn't have done and and what happens is what they get in the end of that is hey congratulations you're not getting indicted when in reality maybe we should say hey thank you for saving your partner's life and thank you for saving the community from a guy that's obviously dangerous enough to pull a weapon on a police officer I was just watching an officer involved shooting uh on one of the social media platforms the other day where there's this young very large man who seemed to be something was wrong some some some mental issue yeah he was just talking crazy it's maybe he was on drugs and the cops are trying to calm him down for like the longest time it's a long prolonged video he escalates and then he eventually gets physical and I think they tried to tase him and it didn't work and then they wind up shooting this guy and the officer broke down in tears when it was over he was devastated he couldn't believe he made he had to do this he was horrified his hands were shaking the other officer was comforting him trying to get him to breathe and calm down but you you when you see it in real life like that you see what how it actually went down like how they're trying to make these split-second decisions and this big crazed guy who's out of his [ __ ] mind is running at you right and you don't know what to do
you don't know what's going to happen is this going to be the end of your life and it happen that happens all the time cops get their guns taking away all the time it's a terrifying situation and and so I I I always am very careful to kind of parse out the fact that you know I'm always amazed by how much patients they really do show yes I mean the millions of interactions that happen every day now listen does it happen and there's and there's bad conduct yeah I indicted police officers when I there was something I had to indict um but uh I believe I believe the vast majority just don't want they just want to go home 100% just want to go home the vast majority of interactions that people have with police are positive he just only gets to see the ones that are negative that get recorded that's right and then it's you get sampling bias because all you see is negative and so you start thinking I mean I'm sure you saw that uh Harvard Professor who conducted that study about um violence and um and police encounters and uh he he found it was like it wasn't biased towards black people and people attacked him because we're seeing it every day you're seeing these videos every day but they're the only videos you're seeing that's right there're the only ones you see you don't you don't see the have a nice day thank you for your service I appreciate you too Knuckles drive safe you don't see those that's right you don't those are real those those things happen where cops you know smooth things over and everybody's okay and they go home and everybody's fine that that happens too that happens a lot it happens way more than the other way but you think cop murder black people bad everything happened horrible bang bang Windows shot out you you see those videos over and over again and they run like a [ __ ] slideshow in your mind yes and uh but the you know those are statistically insignificant almost when it comes to the grand scheme of things I mean it doesn't happen very often when it does we have to punish it harshly but I just I grew more respectful police officers the closer I got to them I think the big problem that people have these days is you see something and you see it often and you see it replayed and it's just like you said it
becomes a slideshow on your mind and it's hard to know how frequent the occurrence is I had an interesting thing happened to me recently where my son uh Carter made the travel baseball team and I'm like he's like the new kid on the team cuz we moved from New York and we went to our first tournament and where I'm the new dad hanging out because it's out of town and I sit down at a table with these other three dads and they're introducing themselves and we just struck up a conversation and we were talking about bias and I said you know I would probably be the wrong we're talking about you know juries and jury service and he I said you know I'd be like the wrong oh someone asked me one of the dads asked me how do I get out of jury service I said tell the truth because we're all biased we all have a bias against something and I like like for me I've done a bunch of cases where Corrections Officers like did something bad to someone so I'd probably be bad for a case like that because the reality is that most of them do their job and want to go home and it's dangerous but I was I was recognizing my own bias and I look around the table and they're all looking at each other smiling and I knew it in that moment that one of them was a correction officer it's my buddy my buddy uh Ryan Gillis and it was it was like oh how do I wipe the [ __ ] off my foot so I've gotten to know Ryan and he's a corrections officer in Florida he's and he's just a great guy he's quiet and softspoken and my daughter was going to the county fair and there's like rough nights some nights where like kids try to start fights and I was talking to him about it and he goes you know I do security detail there and I'm going to I'm not there that night but I'm going to tell the guys you know if if she has an issue have her call and he's just a he's a great dude you know there's great people in all walks of life and I look at him and sometimes I'll be thinking man I wonder what his day was like because he has you know a really tough dangerous job and I have such deep respect for him and it was like one of those moments where I was like [ __ ] that came out wrong I articulate it wrong and I think the problem that a lot of people have and we're in a society where you
it's you're so quick to pick aside and to label something and I'm just trying to to do a lot less be quicker to listen and slower to speak when it comes to making some big judgment about a group of people because I you know you got to take each of these situations individually well said so well said words to live by that's right um I think we did it I think we got it all out I do too I do thank you JD really great man I really appreciate you doing this and I appreciate your honesty and the way you're able to express yourself it was excellent Josh I love you I love you more bro thank you for everything my pleasure all right uh bye everybody [Applause] [Music]