Video URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc5oIzZpyLs
Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day Steve vanell that was a long exhale I needed one is this Trump's chair uh he sat in that chair yeah I want to soak up some of the tenacity man he's got a lot of that that it took me a long time man um it took me a long time to to to see it like I remember people talk you know there was this thing when he when he emerged on the scene it was thing about like toughness and I'd always defined like in my mind toughness was being able to go through some like Alder choked hell hole real fast or hike up a hill so I was like that's not tough then later I was like oh like thatal toughness that kind of tough man think about what that guy went through I mean he had the entire media the entire Justice System he had uh the the Deep State Central Intelligence Agency he had all these people like conspiring to take him out literally an assassination attempt and then another one in and out of the news in no time nobody cared no grace period no they they went they waited about a day and then they started talking [ __ ] about him again that's the thing is I would have uh when I looked at like now that I've come to understand it better I'm like like the fact that uh most people would crawl into a whole yeah you know after a while I I got a buddy I don't want to say who it is but he uh he had sold his business and he told me he goes W want I sell my business I'm going to crawl into a deep dark hole and um later he's kind of back out and bought another business I said what about crawling into the deep dark hole he said well I did but my wife was in there he go I had to get back I'm not ready yet I gotta get back out what people I think that's like these sort of fictional depictions of the future that you know everybody wants this future where you know you're just holding hands and walking off into the sunset the golden years it's all [ __ ] if you're alive you're going to want to do the same things you're doing right now yeah you're not going to have some point in your life where you're going to want to do nothing and be happy that you don't have to do anything you're going to get
depressed yeah I think about it but my wife's my wife's smart enough to worry about what had happen to us if we didn't have like you know dragons to slay yeah you know she feels that it might be essential it's essential for life you need puzzle you need at least some sort of a very involving hobby MH you need something I mean you can retire from if you have a lot of money you could retire from your financial Pursuits but you need something that you enjoy doing human beings need tasks if you don't have something you you get very dull and that's how people get Alzheimer's they just [ __ ] get dementia they just like sit around the house and their brain atrophies and and then they just die yeah I look at people like that and um you know part of looking at uh well Biden and Trump would be uh at that age like I plan on at that age to be like really kicking it just screwing around outside yeah just having but that just thing that like to perform to The Bitter End man mhm well Biden is not performing trying to perform to the endever he doing is strange yeah trying to keep at it think he's getting propped up I think there's other people that are like pushing him towards the get out there come on I like I think Jill's got her hands on his lower back just giving a push get out there come on you can win again I think I could have could have beaten Trump yeah it's um but it's that thing too where people oh one day you get to a certain age and you'll like you know I'm 57 and I used to think oh when I'm 57 I'll be done I'll just if I have some money I'm just gonna relax yeah that's nonsense I don't want to relax how long do you think how long do you think you if you had guest how long would you do this podcast this is the easiest thing I do really yeah I'll do this forever so easy to do yeah as long as I'm actually interested in talking to the people how how hard is that actually interested yeah but that's the only reason why I do it anyway like I only talk to people I want to talk to so no one ever tells me you know have this person on your show there's there's literally zero input from anyone else so everybody I talk to I look at I go do I want to talk to that guy that might be cool that'd be interesting I want to find out what makes him tick I want to find out what why she writes those books
like that I want to find out you know what what keeps him going that that's like the whole the whole reason why I do it is because I enjoy it if do you picture do you picture walking away from standup before you'd walk away from podcast I don't know why would I do that too I have my own club now I I'm 50 years old man I'm just starting to wonder I'm just starting to have these questions no I think you enjoy you just stay healthy stay healthy and do what you enjoy doing I think live in the moment I think this idea of like planning for the future it's like silly I really do I think you should have goals like if you enjoy doing things and you're like I would like to get to this point I would like to do this or it's something to strive towards that's good but this idea like you know one day you're just going to like stop doing stuff like why they are you alive are you enjoying doing it yeah shut the [ __ ] up like you could be so much worse off there's so many things to dwell on other than whether or not I want to stop doing something that I enjoy why would I ever even think about that that's a good point man it's a good point these are all questions I had never really thought about but I've more interested in them after I crossed that threshold you know but I could conceive a time where I don't want to do it anymore I don't want to be a public person anymore the public aspect of it is the weirdest part that people constantly wanting your time and everybody thinking that if I can connect with this guy that I can make a lot of money I can set up a business with him I can do this with him I can do that with him he can introduce me to this I can you know work with him I can do there's a lot of that a lot of that that's exhausting a lot of these like opportunists and and Weirdos yeah you know those those are exhausting I remember years ago three four years ago you told me that you wished you were uh we were eating barbecue and you told me you wish you were 10% less famous but I feel like then you got 20% more famous yeah yeah I [ __ ] up well I thought doing the Spotify I was like his Direction isn't going the right way that was the whole reason why I took the Spotify deal I was like good they're going to give me a lot of money and it'll only be on Spotify so I'll be
about 10% less famous good let me slide off Into Obscurity because all I mean as long as I'm making money I was like I just enjoy doing it I don't care how many people like the people that like it will still listen so maybe I'll have less casual fans like who cares who cares you know yeah know this certain level of Fame though that's a little unmanageable and I'm in that level yeah it's very unmanageable you know what it is well part you know if you'll allow me to tell you what it is okay please do and and I I observed this uh I observed this my my wife who's traveling through right now I observed this after uh we had at dinner with you one time and um certain individuals you included would be that um it's not necessar it's not just people that don't like you right there's people that like you too much yeah the people that don't like you just avoid you those I know and so it's like you got to like at a certain point you got to worry about the people that like you yeah oh believe me I know cuz they like you a lot you know oh I know yeah and they they also they're like I'd like to take kidnap that Joe Rogan and bring him home with me they want me to come to house keep in my basement yeah I get I get like letters people want me to come to their house I get it you know especially if you don't know anyone famous and the thing about podcast too is like you're so intimately connected to that person because you hear that person talk all the time yeah I do four of these a week so it's like they're hearing me you know it's [ __ ] 12 hours a week me talking to you yeah it's a lot yeah that that thing I mean comes up it's over observed MH um Tim Ferris mentioned it to me he's like people think like they think they know you but he's like but they do they do they do and you don't know them yeah yeah which is real weird yeah they know they know what you think about stuff they know what you think about current events they know about your background right the good thing about that though is if like someone tries to pretend you're something other than you are if like there's a smear campaign against you people like no I know that guy oh like they actually know you yeah they really know you like people have listened to me like a 100 hours there's
no there's no confusion there's no like guesswork like this is who I am I'm not that complicated long charade yeah this episode is brought to you by visible you know how most Wireless plans feel like they're designed to confuse you with like hidden fees weird sub charges family plans you don't even want not with visible on the visible plan it's one line of unlimited 5G data for just $25 a month flat rate no surprises powered by Verizon's Network so you know it's solid and here's the kicker they're all digital you can manage your plan in the app or online meaning no store no pushy salese just you and your phone and right now visible got an insane Deal use promo code Rogan by January 31st and you will get the visible plan for just $20 a month for 25 months that's $5 off every month for over two years so go to visible.com Rogan and check it out it's wireless made simple terms apply see their website for the details that'd be a long trade that you've played yeah imagine imagine you bullshitted people that long that's that would be amazing like a 100,000 hour trade 100,000 an hour trade bullshitting people yeah but you know there's always that suspicion when you see someone on television that they're not really that way because there's been like Ellen like the Ellen situation yeah you know people found out that Ellen was mean and all these people came out and said Ellen's actually a [ __ ] [ __ ] and every can't believe it she lost everything she fell apart disappeared because people found out that this character that she was portraying in a half an hour on a television show was not really who she was yep you know but I hadn't already known that cuz I had a buddy who worked for like and he was like she's a [ __ ] monster yeah I didn't have I didn't have a lot of I didn't really had a lot of awareness you probably did just from being in the business I only did because of my buddy yeah my buddy Greg who was one of her writers was like she's a piece of [ __ ] I I I didn't know enough to be surprised it's just people that um they get in those positions of power and if their whole life they've been [ __ ] with and picked on or you know they've been marginalized and then all a sudden they're in control like oh now it's payback there's a lot of those
folks that's what happened to Castro is that it is that what happened to Castro yeah I mean like you know I mean it's like the in fact I I would talk about that a little bit in some you know I've discussed that in like various conversations around when you watch like certain political fortunes rise as it becomes Things become vindictive I Canada anymore I won't go to Canada for a UFC I don't go over there man I've spent my whole life in the Northern Tier States but I've I've remained uh um somewhat oblivious to political movements in Canada well they don't have free speech up there they don't have a First Amendment they have different laws they have hate speech laws yeah which are very dangerous because who defines hate speech yeah you know like so hate speech laws in Canada they refer to gender pronouns now so like not just male female like if a guy like if Caitlyn Jenner decides that she's a girl like Bruce Jenner decides he's a girl now you have to call him Caitlyn if you don't that's hate speech like okay maybe that's debatable maybe you're being an [ __ ] but no they want like all 78 fake genders like zzer and all these [ __ ] crazy fake ones and they thems and well that's where like that's I mean isn't that conversation what spawn kind of the ascendency of uh Jordan Peterson right coming out yeah coming out of Canada well that's how Jordan and I became friends yeah in 2015 and then Jordan did my podcast and then Jordan became a famous guy for speaking out against this yeah he's going through some sort of bizarre re-education process in Canada and he's going to uh publicize it because it's so ludicrous so they they want to educate him on uh like what he what he talks about on social media if he wants to keep his clinical license to practice as a psychotherapist oh is that right but he doesn't want to practice anyway he makes far more money doing what they've essentially made a monster they made him way more famous than he ever would have been before they they highlighted all of Canada's problems way more than would ever get highlighted without this persecution of this guy H it's kind of crazy though yeah so he's going through it he's like [ __ ] you I'll I'll go through it and I'll go through it publicly you guys are idiots also you're
have to talk what the outcome will be well knowing he's going to trounce them like good luck debating that guy yeah good [ __ ] luck like good luck like who do you got on your side that's going to go up against that guy like shut the [ __ ] up who on your creepy authoritarian totalitarian regime is going to stand up and make sense competing against Jordan Peterson good [ __ ] luck I wouldn't want the job yeah good luck good luck debating that guy it's just the the whole the whole situation up there is just like so [ __ ] and I don't know too much about that Pierre pette guy but I I hope that you know there's some sort of meaningful change up there they could bring I used to love Canada I used to say Canada is like America with like 20% less douchebags they were so friendly they're so nice I used to love going to Montreal I used to love going to Vancouver I loved it up there but some the woke [ __ ] hit there so hard because they don't have freedom of speech they don't have a First Amendment so when they start clamping down on your ability to express yourself like there really disastrous implications yeah but there'll probably be I mean there will probably be a course correction now which seems like just generally on Free Speech issues there's a radical course correction right now sure or you become Iran oh yeah you roll that way yeah I mean course correction doesn't always work like you know we think it works because it works in America and it works in America because we have the First Amendment and we have the Second Amendment and those two things work together and if we didn't have those things we would be genuinely [ __ ] cuz every government wants to eventually completely and totally control its population CU it's way easier for them to make money and that's what they like to do yeah they like to make money they like to be in bed with the lobbyists and the military-industrial complex and the pharmaceutical industrial complex and they like to [ __ ] imp impose their will on people and if you can't express yourself and say hey this is [ __ ] up this is crazy why am I doing this like these studies show that you're not correct like if you can't say all those things which right now you can't do in Canada it's not the same like their
ability to express himself on the internet has been severely limited it's it's real weird man it's real weird and it's happening right you could walk there if you wanted to you could walk there and it's [ __ ] it's like it's on the same patch of land as us and it's [ __ ] it just shows you what can happen here if you don't have the right laws because people like that [ __ ] Justin they pretend you guys on first name basis yeah that [ __ ] they pretend that they're and I don't talk this way about anybody no I'm really surprised I I I genuinely despise people like that I think it's good to say it public because people need to understand like what these people are doing these people are leading you on the road to legitimate communism like he's he's leading that country on a road to legitimate communism it's very dangerous and I think most Canadians are fed up with it at this point it's just like the part the party up there has so much control and he's been forced to resign so he's got to step down and just hopefully they don't get some new slick talker to con them into the same old [ __ ] hopefully someone comes along that has like like real meaningful change yeah which is what I'm hoping is going to happen in America too if that Tim Wallock sucker if that guy got into into Power like if KLA died and Tim Walls tampon Tim was our [ __ ] president you know how crazy this country would be that weirdo puts tampons in the boys room and what about our joy like he's a complete pathological liar like a complete liar lied about being in tan Square lied about being a [ __ ] head coach of a football team when yeah I thought some that was uh just weird and how avoidable it was 100% avoidable but pathological Liars people that habitual Liars they just lie all the time about everything but there's a way uh there's a way you can do it where it's sort of like no one's ever going to know and there's things you can fib about that just find that you find out in 5 seconds so you wonder about making the call to embellish something that a person could answer on on their phone right right instantly like almost as you're saying it yeah that's not true
no this was your rank in the military oh you didn't deploy uh from for war you didn't why are you saying you deployed at War the the weapons you used in war no no no you weren't in war like oh you were a head no you weren't a head coach you were the water boy yeah the [ __ ] are you talking about I thought some of that was weird he's just a liar but that's what a lot of these people are they're just they're just actors who are ugly and they're like wow I can't really make it in ch business and I I want a lot of attention and I want to be a special person so I'll I'll do politics I'm good at bullshitting M and most people you know they're trusting they like oh he's saying the right things if you say the right things you know Abracadabra and then next thing you know you're a [ __ ] Governor yeah you ever going to run for governor Texas no no I'm not running for nothing I don't want to do nothing I don't want to do a goddamn thing I can picture down the road man you might be like I want to be governor of Texas [ __ ] that why would I do that I have the best job in the world I don't talk [ __ ] with zero responsibilities if I get something wrong listen I'm a [ __ ] why are you listening to me in the first place no I have no desire in any way shape or form to have anything to do with anything involving politics or I don't want to be in control of it I don't even like having employees Jam's awesome but I mean I don't like having employees but he's just great he's just great he's easy like that's why there's so few of us here you know like I have a friend who has a podcast a big podcast and he's like [ __ ] 13 people working for him people running around with clipboards I'm like what do these people do yeah like why do you have so many people working for you like this is do freak you out and he's always got like inter office conflicts and people are getting fired because people are fighting with each other and people fighting over like promotions and trying to get to like backstabbing each other and like yeah maybe you wouldn't like being Governor [ __ ] that I would hate it I wouldn't want I don't want to be a mayor I don't want to be nothing I don't want to be nothing but I did get some sort of not even a mayor no I don't want to be a city councilman I don't want to be a
Cong I don't want to be [ __ ] I I I don't like the whole thing about it it's just it's not it's not a good gig it's just a it's a creepy business it's a very creepy and prostitution business it's just I don't like it yeah yeah part of the impetus that pushes people into it is that they want to reverse that but I think that then there's a there's a there's a well there's a magnetic pole that takes you in a direction of being perhaps what you wanted to get rid of seems like it happens to a lot of the like really idealistic young people that get involved in it and then all a sudden they start doing really well in the stock market and M yeah they make they make some good bets yeah they you know they used to be making $228,000 a year now all of a sudden they're worth 12 million and now they're worth 20 million and they're hanging out with a bunch of other people that are going on Yachts on vacations like I want to go on a yacht and vacation yeah next thing you know you know I want a Mercedes and then like they get yeah they slowly get you you know you know Evan haer yeah Evan haer had a great saying I've been repeating it a lot too much lately for people to listen to this podcast but he said psychology is more contagious than the flu I was like oo that's so true oh I mean like ideas and psychology yeah well being around people in the way they think I'm yeah you absorb the way they think yeah yeah yeah if you're around people that are just trying to have a good time that are nice people genuinely you lean in that direction yeah you know like I try to spread that I want everybody to have fun like let's have a good time like if you're around a bunch of creeps that are just trying to climb the ladder and Claw their way into Power like yeah how do you maintain your sovereignty yeah that kind of psychological infection yeah good luck good luck battling it out with 460 other creeps who show up in DC and lie yuck although I did get like a bizarre uh I did enjoy affecting the election oh I could oh dude imagine I can imagine I did enjoy because I didn't want to I did I did not want to get involved in any way shape or form but it got so weird yeah you'd expressed that publicly in the past I was like I don't want to have
nothing and I don't want to have anything to do with in the future I don't I didn't want to I just felt sucked into it I'm like yeah like we can't do this again we can't do it with these same people that [ __ ] us for four years and then they're going to like we're going to do it differently now like like what's going on did you see what's going on in obviously you've seen what's going on in California but the governor gave this creepy [ __ ] speech where he was talking about speculators coming in and and talking about what to do with the land of all these homes that have been burnt down while these while it's still only 6% contained and he did this little dance like I've been talking with these you know with the governor of Hawaii about what to do we got some ideas and speculate we're going to have some meetings like he's really oh show it to him Jamie it's so creepy because it's happening while these people are their houses have been burned all their childhood memorabilia all their the the stuff for their kids the photos the [ __ ] everything they have everything they have is gone me all heirlooms you know their their mother's wedding ring that kind of [ __ ] everything's burnt to the ground and this guy's like standing in front of all this stuff and he's got a smile on his face and he's talking about land use the development plan watch this play this give me I was just talking to Josh Green the governor uh of uh uh down in in Hawaii you had some ideas around some land concerns he has around speculators coming in buying up properties uh and the like so we're already working with our legal teams to uh to move those things forward and we'll be presenting those in a matter of days not just weeks with big smile on his face look at the little wiggle he does with his shoulders Speculator watch this talking to Jack look at this look at this little wiggle it's excited about the possibilities of speculators coming in and he's saying we move forward we're going to move forward on that these people lost their homes a lot of those people don't even have fire Insurance because the fire Insurance pulled out of California like I think like 69% of fire Insurance pulled out of California because they're like this is too crazy like you guys aren't doing jack [ __ ] to
manage this you're not clearing the brush the amount of money they could have saved by just clearing Brush by filling the reservoir that 11 million gallon Reservoir was completely empty during the time of full Fire season like why why didn't you fix that yeah like it's all insanely mismanaged and then this guy is on television talking about we really excited about that doing a dance in front of the burn down home that people used to sleep in where they're children would sleep in like this is so disgusting you know uh that's why I don't want to be Governor there oh you know what funny I was going to tell you about on the way down here I happen to be sitting across from one of our senators from Montana and and uh after when when the flight was getting off you know it's hilarious this this this Oldtimer comes by him and and legitim I'm not joking legitimately brings up to him potholes on the road really like on the airplane it's like you got to do something about these potholes I'm outside of Belgrade and his potholes are terrible he's like okay yeah got it got it well I mean the S can't do much but obviously I know but it's just like it's almost like a cliche but you know the thing with the what's go their night uh guys that I grew up with um you know like a fish that was very Central to our upbringing was a was a fish called smelt was different kinds of smell so we had a rainbow smell and they were they live in the Great Lakes and so in the spring when the smelt run you know was a big deal to go smelt dipping and we'd smelt dip them in with drop Nets and dip Nets it was a huge thing and when smelt numbers were really high you know it was just like it kind of brought everybody together a lot of my buddies used to do that in Massachusetts the smell run yeah so the other night someone had taken out a clip where someone had taken out a chunk of an article in my friend Circle and had sent me a thing where where trumpet called the Delta smelt like a basically useless fish and and I was like man like there needs to be like a um like a article in the Constitution that the president cannot [ __ ] talk smell you know but then I realized it was a
different smell so I got my I I cooled off once I realized it was the Delta smelt not our beloved rainbow smell well you can have there's a a balance right in terms of like being environmentally conscious but also recognizing the needs of the human population and I think that's been distorted in California significantly yeah but I do get like my hackles get up when my hackles get up about uh disparaging uh disparaging fishes and birds of course yeah no I get it playoffs we're talking about playoffs you bet we are get in on the action with draftking sports book an official sports betting partner of the NFL scoring touchdowns is key to winning the playoffs and you can score big by betting on them at DraftKings the number one place to bet touchdowns ready to place your bet try betting on something simple like a player to score six go to draftking Sportsbook app and make your pick new draftking customers can bet five bucks to get $200 in bonus bets instantly download the draftking Sportsbook app and use the code Rogan that's code Rogan for new customers to get $200 in bonus bets instantly when you bet just five bucks only on draftking Sportsbook the crown is yours gambling problem call 1800 gambler in New York call 8778 Hopey or text Hopey 467 369 in Connecticut help is available for problem gambling called 888 78977 77 or visit ccpg dorg please play responsibly on behalf of booill casino and resorting Kansas 21 over age and eligibility varies by jurisdiction void in Ontario bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance four additional terms and responsible gaming resources see dk. c/ audio I get it that's your world mhm that's world yeah it's um there's a balance a balance to be held for sure you know I'm not real thrilled with this idea of like continuing to to drill for oil in the gulf and drill for oil everywhere and knowing that occasionally these things blow up and you have a massive pollution and but also I don't think we should be dependent on Saudi Arabia for all our oil it's you know one of the one of the uh kind of contradictions you encounter with stuff like this and and I've been a little bit involved in this the last few years as I started going down to the goal of Mexico to spear fish on the oil rigs and so the oil rigs are they're ver
imagine like a a vertical coral reef you know you I don't want to call it but by no means I I want to call the Gul a desert but I mean you could if you're away from the rigs you could swim along the surface for miles potentially right if you're just swimming with a snorkel and mask you can swim along the surface for miles and not encounter fish I mean it's kind of where you're seeing them in front of your face right and you pull up to a rig and it's it's hung in fish I mean it's it's they're they're draped in thousands of fish okay so you know you grow up with this idea if you just have a passive understanding of all the stuff you grow up this idea that like oil oil exploration equals a diminishing of Natural Life a diminishing of Wildlife and you go and uh and there there's this big debate where certain people want to pull the abandoned rigs out but you have fishermen who are like they're here now leave them because that's where all the fish are yeah you know and it's just it's very it's just very spirited debate and different administrations will have different plans they had a program like idle iron which was to pull them out there's a program called rigs to reefs which is to tip them over so they're not navigational hazards the the shrimpers don't like them because they they they're you know they cause like navigational obstructions you can hang your gear up on them but all the rod and real fishermen and all the spear fishermen want the rigs there so you wind up into a situation like that where it's this real complexity and you can picture um you know it puts people in a situation and viewing it it puts you in a situation where it's not that clean yeah you know like you're creating I mean you they you always hate to say it because you're supposed to you know you know you're supposed to be uh you know most people from the environmental movement are antio oil exploration but then you go and look and be like they created like an un accidentally created an unbelievable fishery yeah in the gulf and there's dudes now like I got buddies that Spear Fish there and fish there and it's like you remember in Star Wars the original Star Wars where they go to that [ __ ] planet and the planet's gone
they like hey shouldn't the planet be here you know that scene I've been with buddies of mine and they got they got GPS marks for Rigs and you show up and it's like Star Wars it's like you show up and the rig's not there anymore because there's these ships out there called rig Reapers that are out plucking the rigs and they're plucking them faster than they can put them in but it's got all the fishermen pissed off that's an interesting situation yeah they want them there now man Lake Austin has a similar situation so Lake Austin used to be this it's still very good for bass fishing they have big bass on Lake Austin and um the people that live on the lake you know the high futin folks didn't like all the weeds yeah so they brought in carp oh and the carp ate everything so now the the place looks like the bottom of a swimming pool yeah it's like all the vegetation is [ __ ] and so the bass don't have a lot of places to go like you know where where I live people go to the docks like they they cast to the dock you know and they they fish near people's docks because that's like the only cover that these fish have and so there's talk of like submerging like trees or you know dropping creating structures yeah creating structures and then there's people that are opposed to that cuz like you know you have your you know the wakeboarders and all the people that like to like Recreation on the water they don't want anything that could possibly [ __ ] up their boat yeah you know but like youve they already [ __ ] it up by bringing in the carp like and you can't get the carp out like how you going to kill the carp you know Tom you remember the writer Tom was it Tom Robbins or Tim no Tim Robbins is the actor right right Tom Robins skinny skinny uh Skinny Legs and All MH Jitterbug perfume he had a line where um you like in Hawaii they had this famous thing where they had a rat problem and then they brought in mongooses to kill the rats and then now they got a mongoose problem yeah he had some line that like um we used to have a crime problem then we brought in Cops but it's uh like my first uh you're talking about political involvement my first T my first time I ever approached anything remotely political was on the lake I grew up on we had an we had an
invasive seaweed an evasive aquatic plant called Eurasian Mill foil and it grew in our Lake but it made unbelievable fish habitat and at the time I was not hip enough to understand the delerious effects of non-native vegetation I just knew that when you wanted to catch a fish you went to the mil foil bed cuz all the fish were hiding in the mil foil and they had this proposal to come in and kill all the mil foil and all the lakes and I went down I remember I was I was in high school I went down I remember I was the sole person there to represent like the mil foil side of the argument um and then they did it they went in and poisoned all the mil foil out of the lakes in hopes of you know bringing in like that native seaweeds would take hold but it I mean it it absolutely transformed the lake and from a fishery perspective from a not a perspective of native habitat but from a pounds of fish perspective the pounds of fish like the biomass of fish declined by pulling out the weeds of course you know and it's again like some you on one hand you look like why would you mess up with this there's fish everywhere and some people be like well it's not a native plant and we need to Value native Wildlife um at the expense of what you know high schooler would look at is like it's where the fish are yeah you know they didn't do what they did to Lake Austin they didn't do it to ladybird lake so if you go to ladybird Lake it's just hopping with bass remain a good fishy yeah there's seaweed and all kinds of or not seaweed but you know lily pads and all kinds of [ __ ] over there that you don't have on Lake Austin they didn't bring in the carp y the the other enormously destructive thing that they've done um around the Lakes where I grew up on is all that so much of that that life the lake life relies on what you call like the loral zone so you know the shoreline Zone and most these fish species they like it to be dirty meaning weeds falling over trees like it creates all kinds of habitat right for little stuff to hide and on these Lakes where I grew up in Michigan there's been a tendency over the years to to to to round up put round up on your Shoreline and then haul in beach sand and you just watch over the years
like over the course of my life lifetime you just watch this like really like verdant kind of like vibrant environment become increasingly like a swimming pool in a lot in a lot of those Lakes man it's just been it's just been it's just been depressing to watch happen yeah we were talking the other day about uh eating freshwater fish and how how much toxic chemicals are in freshwater fish it's [ __ ] bananas yeah they have state advisories which I've always ignored I've always ignored have you ever get your blood test no but you want to know I might have told you this story man did I ever tell you a story about this which one well I'll tell it real quick so I grew up with a guy who the uh a guy named Ron spring yes he had his I tell you the Ron spring story okay please do [ __ ] I tell the story too too I don't think he told it on here okay I grew up this guy around spring and for a living he was a commercial bait fisherman he would um he would catch wigglers minnows he'd uh dig crawlers catch Le es and he would supply bait and tackle shops with life bait and he had spring Sporting Goods where he sold his own life bait and he would even hire women to sew what's called a spawn sack where you take little bits of s pieces of salmon row salmon eggs and sew them into a little mesh bag for steel head bait he was just in the bait business but also was a fishing fanatic and lived off fish his whole life so he was living off Great Lakes fish his whole life and the University of Montana started trying to track down oldtimers who'd eaten like enormous quantities of Great Lake fish Great Lakes fish to test them for heavy metals exposure okay and and and and other toxic things or in the environment and he'd lived his whole life like me with like complete Defiance of Health advisory suggestions about fish consumption um and he goes down there and he and he would go in every month or two for these little batteries of tests and one of the things they would do with them is they would tell them they'd give them a grocery list and they' be like hey you got to go to the store and buy like bread eggs cheese butter whatever and then they' wait a minute and they'd say what were you supposed to buy at the store you know and he's telling me this story and he told me I was laugh he said
um Steve I wouldn't have remembered that list if I never ate a piece of fish in my life so they were trying to like gauge his memory based on the heavy metal in his body yeah they were trying to they presumably they tested his blood and found something of interest and so trying to figure out like what happens to a guy but uh I lived in Seattle and uh right on Lake Washington and we would catch a lot of yellow perch because people they're full of yellow perch which are non-native and everyone in that area in the Pacific Northwest is like a trout and salm and snob so I had the whole fishery to myself you know you you could go out and catch easily you know 100 plus yellow perch out of Lake Washington but they had a health advisory on them and you weren't supposed to they would tell that perch over 12 in you're only supposed to eat one meal a month or some [ __ ] like that but we just wouldn't keep them over 12 Ines um because there weren't that many under over 12 inches anyways and we' just eat them all the time I would have fish fries and when you fried fish in the Great Lakes there's no person in the Great Lakes region that I was aware of like in Michigan there's no person that would even kind of give a [ __ ] about these restrictions they would be surprised to hear that there were any kind of restrictions but like the way the different sentiments and different mentalities run in Seattle you'd have people that like they're like you caught it where Lake Washington no way right just like in a like a level of awareness from like an urban environment about those kind of toxins and and growing up where I grew up it was just not a thing that people discussed even though they're right in the fishing rigs when did it start happening like when did freshwater fish become toxic that would be something I'd be interested man I think it's like it's it's Mercury it's certain industrial solvent it's BPA too forever chemical and I think that with Lake Washington there was a lot correct Me Maybe I'm Wrong like as I say this I might be wrong I think there was things around um Boeing plants and old solvents and stuff that went in the water uh and then and then but Mercury which comes from you know different ways they have
ways of scrubbing it now and greatly reducing the amount of mercury when you burn coal but for a long time um Mercury would come from the combustion of Co and it would be distributed globally evenly everywhere so it didn't it didn't necessarily matter if you were it didn't matter if you're eating a pelagic fish I mean if you're eating like a pacious pelagic fish would seem to be the worst be what does a pelagic mean fish that live their life up at the surface okay and then ones that eat fish that eat fish that eat fish are the worst so picture you got like a like a like a Marlin right he's eating tuna tuna are eating fish that are eating fish and so they they magnify and accumulate all this stuff in their fat that's that's like globally distributed in the oceans and um they've slowed down Mercury um they've slowed down how much mercury is going out because of the ways they scrub when they clean when they burn coal now but it just it's stagnant in the environment you know did I tell you my arsenic story no well I got my blood work done you know I get my blood work done pretty regularly and I went once uh few years back quite a few years back 15 years ago at least um and my doctor said do you have a lot of arsenic in your blood and I go like someone's poisoning me he's like no do you eat a lot of fish oh really and I said I eat a lot of sardines he goes how how much I go four or five cans a night and he was like what he like what the [ __ ] are you doing I go when I come what are you doing well I love sardines and when I'm if like I come home from the ComEd club and I'm hungry it's easy to have like what I thought was like health healthy food it's just sardines and olive oil what could be bad about that and so he said take a few months off and then come back and let's do this again and I took a few months off and I came back no arsonic y I was like oh man he goes it's not enough to be concerned and he goes but you're you're getting arsenic in your blood from these sardines yeah I uh I work with a guy at Seth and and uh he he kind of had this perfect storm where we had been in Hawaii so we had Wahoo and and uh yellow fin tuna and he fishes in Alaska so he had all his hbit and then he's got a bunch of walleye that he catches you know he's
big walleye fisherman that he catches locally and um he wound up uh had like there there's like kind of like a long-term Mercury deal and a short-term Mercury deal but he had he had mercury poisoning his hands went numb and stuff oh yeah and then I got to reading about it there there's like various cases where um there's this other case that's kind of interesting this guy gets on a cruise ship never doesn't eat fish this guy like doesn't have fish his diet it was it was a thing that was covered in the news and he gets on the cruise a cruise and they have all you can eat sushi thing so he wants to get his money's worth and so he's gorging himself on this all you can eat sushi during the course of his cruise and generates like a generates mercury poisoning like a short-term version you know and dudes I hang out with Hawaii that have in Hawaii they have access to a lot of big pacious fish they'll they'll they'll sort of like deliberately Pace themselves you know like they could live off tuna right but they'll deliberately Pace themselves keeping in mind the amount of that stuff you're getting in and RFK Jr I had RFK Jr on the show on our podcast and he had had uh he had had mercury poisoning really you know from what canant tuna was eating too much can tuna wow yeah so maybe I've had I don't know I don't I would well no I've had my blood tested I don't know but but I can't picture the sentiment I have about as a friend of mine um who fishes flathead catfish which have they accumulate a lot of Bio or not biotoxins they accumulate a lot of heavy metals and he said and we were talking about eating this stuff and he said if I can eat if I can catch and eat so many big flatheads that it kills me I win his attitude well there's no cases of uh CWD getting into humans yet right no no but that's the big fear like you and I are on a text chain with Ted nent and he's always like trying I met Ted's Kid last night which one Rocco Rocco yeah good kid yeah um you know Ted is always trying to dismiss the concerns of CWD he doesn't believe in it yeah he thinks it's overhyped well it scares the [ __ ] out of me yeah because it it's a preon disease right so if it jumps to people and it has jumped to like certain rodent
species isn't that correct no right now it's just it's it's servs oh just servs Serv there hasn't been a case of it jumping to like a mole or something like that well they did you know when you do I don't want to get in over my waiters here but I'd love to talk about CWD at length but sometimes you can do a uh if someone does medical research and they'll they'll have a finding there's a term for it let's say you have a finding that's alarming but you haven't done peer review yet M all right but let's say I just all of a sudden made some discovery that had huge implications and people would need to become immediately aware of what I might have found out right M um there's a term for it where you would release these you would release these like preliminary findings even though it hasn't been held up to academic rigor because it's of such importance like a lot of times you don't get to skip that step but in cases of medical you get to skip a step and say like hey hang tight we're not all the way there yet but look this is kind of alarming mhm they had a case and and it all corroded but these guys had a case where they were able to infect a rees's monkey with CWD oh um but then it you know it didn't wasn't replicable didn't hold up but thing when things like that happen they tend to get a ton of media but then down the road the media doesn't follow suit like there's been cases where um there was one not long ago where they were looking at people that had this rare form of dementia and they were kind of they found that of these people that had this rare form of dementia um a couple of them had were deer hunters who lived in CWD areas right so they come out with a hey everybody check this out but then it winds up being that when you do a statistical analysis on it it was it was no different than anything else there was no reason that that it wasn't like they scored higher that deer hunter scored higher or nothing it's just a certain percentage of people get dementia yeah so it's like a certain number of people eat dementia a certain number of PE people eat Venison and statistically you're going to have some overlap if you survey enough people so even though they gave like a big heads up it won't be nothing there uh but yeah CWD um it's an it's a highly infectious
disease it was first identified in Colorado on a game on a on a research facility not a game farm it was first identified on a served research facility in Colorado I believe in the early 70s and then there's been a there's been a a debate like some some people feel that it was always there and wasn't detected right and that we that it wasn't like we found it the minute it came out it was just it would perhaps had been there and then we discovered that it was always there um but it does it does expand its range all the time right um even in the last few years we've had our first cases in Montana you we keep every year we add like without fail every year we find CWD in states where it didn't previously exist or within states that have CWD we find CWD in counties that didn't have it often times you can look and it makes sense because it flows but now and then you get these weird jumps right where where um something jumps a big moat of inactivity and then all a sudden you get like a new Hot Spot and you look and be like well how did if it's an infectious disease and deer aren't flying in airplanes how did it jump some of the jumps people will tie it to transporting there's a theory that is well accepted in a lot of circles would be that that moving cids moving deer and Elk um to penned operations has facilitated the movement of CWD what what it used to mean to be a if someone was a CWD denier before it would be that they they they denied that it was a thing like there is no disease called CWD there's generally it's generally accepted now that there's a disease called CWD but but now the debate is like is sort of does it matter or not right uh our mutual friend Doug D is like heavily involved in in in CWD combating CWD trying to get more money spent to understand CWD um and they look at you're looking at there's two risks with CWD one risk is that ultimately it's going to lead to like destruction of deer herds meaning if you get like it's always fatal and if infection rates get to certain point we're going to lose deer right like if it's always fatal and you have infection rates of 50 or 60% and it takes a couple years to kill them like you're going to run out of big
bucks because nothing can live long enough the other fear is that it jumps the barrier and becomes a human pathogen you know so people you know all the hunters I know like the the question we always talk about is like do you uh do would you eat CWD positive meat you know right even if it doesn't jump currently would you take that risk zero Yanni was recently with a guy and he's like he's eating him and his family of eaten four CWD positive deer um man uh I couldn't I can't like I couldn't serve it to my kids no I wouldn't eat it myself either I can't serve it to my kids I I don't I haven't knowingly eat it but here's the thing here's the rub um I've said this number before and people like that's not true but it's true I'm telling you hundreds of thousands of people have eaten CWD positive hundreds of thousands of people have eaten CWD positive meat I would imagine that's true yeah yeah over many decades yeah right so at what point do you at what point do you get comfortable I don't know it's it's a dude it's a tough one yeah it's a tough one because aough it can jump it hasn't it hasn't but when you look at the history of these types of diseases especially preon diseases like mad cow preon disease jumped people you know the debate between prion and pron no you know it's you hear I used to say prion but then I heard TI to say pron and I want to sound smart well the biologist Jim hefflefinger um you should that's that'd be a very good guy for you to have on your show someday the biologist Jim hefflefinger sent me a thing where the guy that named it the guy that coined the term spelled out phonetically how it's supposed to be pronounced um so then I was like okay I'm going to stick with pron now if the guy that came up with it says pron oh so that's what it is and not PR yeah he's like said he's like we'll call it this and we'll pronounce it this way okay so it's preon it's now I'm now I'm trying to I always try to remember which one it is and it's uh yeah it's pre-own it's scary dude it's scary and and Doug I said this 100 times like before like if I say man the main thing I'm worried about is people getting it um uh that
pisses Doug off because Doug's worry about that we're gonna lose big bucks and people he just he like he like he know he wants to shut like he's uh he wants to he likes healthy deer right and he doesn't want a disease running through his deer herd it hasn't jumped to cows or anything else no and that's the see that's one area where I'm going to get myself in trouble dog all kinds of ways cuz that's the thing I think about is uh it's not that they're I'm not saying the egg world is complacent right I'm not saying they're complacent like there's a lot of interest in the agricultural Community to understand CWD better but if you look and be like dude a cow looks a hell of a lot more like a deer than I do right I'm just going to watch the cow and all of a sudden these cows start getting sick then my ass is going to get nervous right but I'm like they're rubbing noses with these deer yeah and it gets on the grass it gets on the vegetation kill that [ __ ] yeah I remember some politician was like well just cook your deer meat longer and I like well I can't remember what it is you can't cook deer meat to 1,400 degrees you have to incinerate it or whatever you know whatever else becomes but but yeah cooking it isn't the thing it can survive that's why if you hunt there's a lot of restrictions now on moving carcasses around right so more and more states are implementing that when you go home they don't want you bringing the head home they don't want you bringing the bones home I also fear for a time and be terrible if you're for a time where you couldn't bring anything like they really restrict movement you know right like it's easy to like it's very easy to comply with not moving bones it's easy to comply with not moving brain matter like that's easy right but picture that this gets out of hand and all a sudden it's like you can't move venison across county lines I don't know like no one's thrown this out there but as we look at as they look at like further and further restrictions it's scary and so from a guy like from from from don't want to speak for nent but from his idea of of being overblown is his idea would be like I said I hate speaking for the guy it would be that here we are making
policy changes making game management changes making rule changes adjusting what you can and can't do in the woods based off a thing that most people be like but we haven't proven there's a problem right that would be his perspective on it my perspective is it's scary as [ __ ] and and as much as our government right now is trying to find a way to stop spending so much money I support any money that can get spent on finding out if this can be a real problem or not yeah like I that's I'll find other places to get the money but I I'd like to channel taxpayer dollars billions of them into making sure deer meat stays safe well the thing is that that's my kind of pork barrel spin there's no way to eradicate it right like you there's no way to identify the deer that have it that have exhibited symptoms and they're spreading it yeah they're looking at ways to test live animals then there's there's other cockamamy ideas that one would be that some deer seem to be um some deer all yeah and so that you'd you'd move these resilient deer into other populations to try to breed in some kind of resiliency which you know it's a wild animal is It ultimately resilient cuz like mad cow disease has there's an incubation period right this is the the concern like I remember that's the other thing is that we're all like me everybody because I guarantee I've eaten CWD infected meat the other concern is we all got it we just don't know it yet cuz it takes 10 years but they've been tracking these dudes that went to a fire department fundraiser they had hund some people that ate a bunch of CWD infected meat at a fire department fundraiser and they keep following up on those people and following up on those people and they haven't got but that's was this it was over a decade ago so that's the other thing is that we all God it like all these Hunters you know I don't think this is true but some people are like all these Hunters they don't know it yet but it could be that all of a sudden in 10 years they all start dropping like flies or get developed dementia oh I don't it's such a I really think that um I don't like to see any kind of wildlife disease right of course I do believe
um if you look at prevalency rates and you look at the fact that it's always um that it's always fatal whether or not removing the human question to it I do think that you will find that it'll become harder to uh it'll become harder to produce big deer h i I worry about that and it'd be easy to track just go and look at like go and look at Boon and Crockett entries over time from all these counties so go to like Buffalo Connie Wisconsin like a famous giant white tail producing place right they get high rates of CWD prevalency if you put a line on CWD prevalency and you put a line on Boon and Crockett entries and you're able to track this over many years because we have all this data do you does it correlate does like CWD prevy drive down big bucks right it's it's like it seems very I'm sure that some I'm sure some mathematician out there has started to try to look at like if it's true but a lot of people on the ground say that that you do see popul population level impact from CWD and I'm guessing there's no way it doesn't affect participation meaning that people that would like to hunt and the whole the whole promise of wild meat is you you you know you're getting like really healthy meat right you're able to control the food chain but then all of a sudden you throw in this question of like well but it could give you a preon disease hypothetically that's going to that's going to dampen people's enthusiasm about deer and i' and I'd hate to see we get to a point where one when I look at a deer I look at a deer with like great enthusiasm and love what happens when we look at deer and we look at him like a disease Vector right does it become like like do you view it like a rat or you see a rat and you like recoil o like I don't want that [ __ ] in my yard right they carry disease don't they if your dog could get it yeah like picture down the road that that that like deer which are this like universally loved praised animal this kind of like symbol of the American Outdoorsman becomes like a yeah that [ __ ] out of my yard you know what is when when Doug talks about you know they do a lot of testing in con where lot of testing what what's the percentage that come up positive man uh they
have I think that on Doug's place I think that like last year I don't know if they got all the results from this year but I think last year they had close to 50% of bucks whoa yeah it it's it's it's hovering it's like very high and this is fairly recent like a decade ago they started appearing right yeah I think that I I think that CWD goes back maybe about a decade in his area he's in Richland County Richland or rich is he Richland County yeah Richland County Wisconsin um somewhere in that ballpark and it's changed like I don't when you were at Doug's place you remember at Doug's place they used to have this uh they used to have this slogan like nice buck next year meaning right you know let deer grow let deer grow and and Doug has really changed um over the years these changes tune and they and they really want to try to um the idea generally with Wildlife managers is that by lowering you'll slow spread by lowering numbers right that if you have you know 40 Deer per square mile you're going to have increased spread and if it was 20 deer per square mile 30 deer per square mile you might slow the spread but no one's demonstrated a lot of success in slowing the spread of CWD so other hunters will look at it and be like yeah you're out there lower deer numbers and so there's half as many deer on the landscape um and CWD still spreads right so so there's a you went up with this question of like how do you justify um trying to suppress deer numbers when you're not demonstrating a lot of success and slowing prevalency and the whole thing you're afraid of is lowering deer numbers but you're lowering deer numbers right but it's like a controlled it's a controlled lowering to slow the spread but there hasn't been no one has an area to to to your point you can't go to a county I don't think if I'm wrong I'm Wrong by maybe one County but I'm I'm pretty positive I'm not wrong and this is generally absolutely true um you can't go to a county that had infected deer that no longer has infected deer no one's gone into a population of deer and eradicated CWD wow no one's got no one's gotten rid of it that's crazy has it jumped to Moose yeah I think that
um served so so primarily white tail deer mu deer elk they found it they've had it transmit to Caribou um cow I should know that it's got to be because it's a servant so there's no there's no way numbers like you know that from not from that right but I'm saying like the thing about moose is there's slower numbers and they don't they don't exist in like packs yeah yeah but since it is a served disease I should notice since it is I'm assuming they they've found it in there I can't think of examples I can think of mu deer white tail deer elk Caribou but I can't think of whether or not there's been a positive case of of moose and moose have a whole host of problems um right now in some areas particularly in the lower 48 the northern the northern states of the lower 48 between wolf depredation and uh and then uh a tick oh like a tick is really hammering those moves right now someone told me they went hunting and they got a moose and it was just covered in ticks yeah yeah there's a problem with in this long series of mild Winns um that that's that these extreme colds that would lower these tick numbers down hasn't been happening so you you're you're having animals literally dying like lot of moose literally dying from tick infestations yeah and then Colorado's becoming like a great oh here's all the found in Moose in many state provinces alberter Saskatchewan Colorado and Texas has moose what Texas has moose no no no he's um relatively small areas in the Panhandle in West Texas CWD no maybe yeah that's CD but that's cockeye do they have moose in Texas no no I think it's mixing up two things but it says it there CWD has been found but CWD has been found in Texas right so they're not saying moose in Texas yeah just Google are there moose in Texas there are not I mean everything's in Texas and some form of capacity but no you're way outside Mo you're way outside of moose the native range of moose yeah Colorado is becoming like an unexpected it's blowing up for moose really yeah yeah Colorado becomes better I mean they always said moose but like Colorado is becoming like a premier moose State when did that happen just they just been kicking ass there you know up in the High Country and more and more moose
it's become like a great moose State and meanwhile like Maine is is um really suffering as a moose State really yeah so you know like Maine's whole brand promise you know was like around moose and then Colorado's going to steal it no well it's difficult to get a tag in Maine right very hard very hard yeah yeah for non-resident especially I used to apply over there but I don't apply anymore now what what's what's causing the Moose decline in Maine ticks oh God y ticks dirty little [ __ ] things y have you ever heard the conspiracy theory about Lyme disease yeah that's a weird one right yeah it is seems like there's some legitimate concern there that it might have been a bioweapon that got out of hand well I think after the pandemic we just went through I think people are more open to that idea yeah it was uh widely dismissed by you know people that are a little bit more skeptical about conspiracies but uh rfj Jr he's he believes it yeah you know it's um it's very scary this idea of these [ __ ] Eggheads experimenting with diseases and making them more infectious for whatever reason without also developing a cure yeah it is very strange I guess the one justification you'd have is you'd be like well buy tinkering with it we'll better understand it and if it ever happens naturally we'd be able to combat it yeah how'd that work out that didn't really work out that's Pro that has to be the story you tell to yourself I think they just make money doing research I think if you're a researcher you know look if you're a carpenter you want to build houses they say there's too many houses like ah come on we [ __ ] need houses you know I'm a carpenter I make houses if you're a researcher and your field of study is diseases and viruses you wanted to study them and if the money is involved in some sort of bizarre engineering of these things which is what they're doing this [ __ ] strange gain of function [ __ ] that they're doing you do it and if you can't do it in America like China okay we'll do it over there there was a famous Buffalo hide Hunter and he had talked about during the Great Slaughter of the Buffalo he' talk about now and then he'd commit himself to to stop but say he' wake up in the morning and off in the
distance and he's like someone else is doing it so uh I think that probably with the you know I'm no pathologist but as long as someone's tinkering with that [ __ ] everybody wants to Tinker with that [ __ ] yeah because you're like well I don't know what are they what are they doing over there that that I uh what am I missing out on you know yeah if they're doing it I want to do it yeah I don't want to be the one that looks like a fool and there's research money that's how you get grants yeah and you know what I bet you in some ways the pandemic spawn more of that type of research you think so yeah because I mean like also now you can make the case of how important it is to understand this stuff yeah but you would also make the case like hey how about you [ __ ] come up with a a cure first yeah start with that yeah start with figuring out how to cure it yeah I can see that it's just like there's just not a lot of trust in the medical research institutions now no there's been there's been an erosion of that for sure for for a good reason yeah I mean it was a real wakeup call for people I think they're like oh there's not someone with real objective oversight of all this like doing a really good job of maintaining everything it's not it's not a really wellmaintained situation yeah I used to be a dude that um uh prior to that I was a dude that accepted a lot of uh I don't know I accepted a lot of assurances and then there was a definite like many people I me I'm speaking for most people in the country man uh I feel like like many people I gained a new skepticism yeah me too during the pandemic yeah I joked about it in my special about government author a new skepticism about some types of government Authority and a new skepticism about the way health information yes is spread yeah it's just one of those things where anything involving money whenever there's an enormous amount of money involved and then there's a centralized control of information like where there's people that have a distribution of information and then there's also the problem of exonerating people from any responsibility which is what happened in the 1990s or was it the ' 80s whenever
they uh gave them because the vaccine manufacturers were saying listen we can't manufacture vaccines CU too many people are getting injured by them and we're going to have so much liability that we're not going to be able to make van manufacturer vaccines anymore unless you give us immunity to prosecution yeah and so they gave it to them and then all of a sudden you're getting 72 vaccines instead you g you giving children hepatitis V Hepatitis B for babies which is just [ __ ] crazy a sexually transmitted disease for babies like what are you doing like why are you doing this well you're doing it because you can and because the more vaccines you give kids the more money you make and you're not responsible you don't have to pay off anything you don't get sued which is just you can't do that with these [ __ ] corporations they're just too evil they they are sociopaths they act like sociopaths they lie about studies they lie about side effects they minimize their responsibility and they profit immensely and they continue to do so as long as they're not punished and that's that's the the business that they're in yeah I I I get the frustration but I mean at the same time like I've been the recipient of um I've been the recipient of like remedies offered by Western medicine remedies offered by Western medicine for diseases caused by science yeah you are possibly you are yeah you are a Lyme disease yeah some things like if you well no okay take a take a natural thing like Gardia um the these are you know I don't think anyone's arguing about that but mean like you get sick of [ __ ] listen all you take a pill and you're quick no one's arguing that medicine isn't amazing I mean medicine's amazing there but the problem with medicine is you got your scientists and your medical researchers and then you got your money people right and the money people they don't even know how to make any of this medicine they just know to sell it and how do I sell it I sell it by you know like that's like REM Desir where they were selling REM Desir during the the the covid crisis REM Desir is [ __ ] horrible what is I don't know that one kidney failure they stopped prescribing it oh no I remember that one fouchy was selling it to everybody you need to take REM desvia and everybody was dying
that's your impation Fu horrible kidney failure yeah that [ __ ] creep that read that book the real Anthony fouchy by RFK Jr it's a crazy book yeah I have you know I have se My Buddy Seth was reading that book when we were out moose hunting but I haven't read it that book will change your opinion on a lot of [ __ ] yeah that's a crazy book and if it's not true he would be sued they would the [ __ ] out of him you a cease and's assist well it's all documented he's gu I mean it's all backed up by like Rock Solid information it's all like very well documented what actually happened during the AIDS crisis what actually happened during the covid crisis it's all it's all legitimate it's all easy to research it's just scary that these people that you you don't want to have to think about that stuff all the time you want to just live your life and Trust he's oh this is the Medical Institution they're here to help us they're here to make us feel better yeah yeah but no a lot of them are just there to make money but I held that sentiment me too yeah me too till four years ago lot lot Chang dude I'm [ __ ] super skeptical now I'm also super skeptical of the um herd mindset that people fall into whenever there's some sort of a pandemic when then there's a high level of anxiety a lot of people fall into this herd mindset yeah and that scares the [ __ ] out of too because there's just a lot of people that are cowards and they're afraid to they're afraid of public humiliation public you know public criticism they're afraid of getting ostracized from the community if they don't follow suit like everybody else is doing and so then they start to try to enforce it on everybody else it's like the people that were yelling at everybody else where's your mask put your mask on like you know there's people I went to a restaurant the other night the [ __ ] guy serving me had a mask on like I would fire this guy I would not like you can't this is nonsense you can't be wearing a [ __ ] mask this is crazy I read oped in the Free Press y otherday um you know Barry Weiss's publication um and it was about when they had rolled back uh they had rolled back um masking laws I kind of forgot all about this like you used to not be
able to run around with a mask on yeah because of like criminal activity yeah so one of these one of these dudes that pushed a pushed a person in front of a Subway um was must have been premeditated to some degree cuz hood and mask right so you can't identify him on security footage right and the dude that shot that Healthcare mhm uh Insurance CEO MH like masted but you don't think anything of it right so this this person was arguing in some capacity they were they were arguing that um we need to move back to anti-masking rules yeah to fight crime which I you know I get the sentiment but I also thought like if you had at a time prior to the pandemic if you had told me that there was restrictions on wearing a mask you know I would have thought I would have been surprised about that because it seems like how can you dictate to someone that you have a like a little Stage Coach robber bandana on your face yeah you know what I mean it's like a weird it's like a weird thing it's like can you really um can you really tell people that they they can't wear a mask but this person is saying you could we did and now that you now that now you've granted like criminals some level of anonymity by that you can just kind of like you're cool just to walk around totally obscured well it's also you're you're dealing with people that have severe anxiety if they think that that mask is actually going to protect them it doesn't do jack [ __ ] sure especially if you're wearing the bandana the bandana is just ridiculous sure but I'm not oh yeah but yeah but I'm not looking to have a rational argument with them I'm just it just like surpris like something I hadn't considered that you could uh have a that you could at a you know make a law telling people about wearing masks or not yeah I just forgot all about that [ __ ] because you just didn't but it would be if you went back six years ago and you saw a dude with a mask and a hood on yeah you might be like the hell's his problem yeah now you're like oh he's real scared of Co real scared still to this day I mean there someone sent me a video this guy who wears a mask every day and he's been pushing for masking he's like like severely mentally ill yeah well that that is overrun with anxiety just like
like advocating for masking we should all be masking and double masking and if you had a mask on in a hood on all the time you wouldn't be just 10% less famous you'd be 70% less famous I got I got spotted a lot when I had a mask on with your mask on yeah with a mask on yeah yeah I kind of yeah well I'm short and wide you know I have an odd shape you know I think people look is that that Burly little man [ __ ] chimpanzee looking dude Baldhead yeah all muscle I'd wear a baseball hat sunglasses mask and they're like z r even even without like seeing my tattoos like I just was getting busted you know what it might be cuz you uh are known um sitting in that seat in that posture and so maybe when you're in the airport you should try a different you should try a different pose lean yeah lean back they might just be they might be just picking you off by your uh seating position I don't know it was just walking down the street I was getting called out yeah yeah getting with sunglasses on and a baseball hat y you be 10% less famous yeah that's too late that that [ __ ] chicken flown the ceop MH yeah that's over no one doing it now I think you should stop masking I think it should be illegal I think it's ridiculous in New York they made it so that if you go into uh a store you have to pull your mask down so the facial recognition will work really yeah because they were getting so many people getting robbed so many stores are getting robbed and you could never catch the guy there is yeah there is movement back to that I think it was the mayor was like proposing that but they should just make it illegal to wear a [ __ ] mask you're a psychopath like it doesn't work it doesn't work and it's not protecting you so what are we doing you're just covering your face well you can't cover your face because we live in polite Society we want to make sure that people can't commit crimes wearing a [ __ ] bank robber mask this is nuts it a little bit you being um like you you being a very libertarian dude I don't know if you describe yourself that way pretty much yeah you like I'm a little surprised I remember you were having a conversation with JD Vance and JD Vance made a comment about uh just not a serious comment made a comment like um
you know dude shouldn't wear skirts or some [ __ ] like that and you're like they should totally be able to wear skirts yeah women get to wear them why can't men you know it was it was it was all said with levity yeah but I was a little surprised like I could picture you as well um I could picture you as well really feeling like how could you legislate it's public safety thing obscure in your face yeah there's no there's no Public Safety in skirt the guys got weird knees that's I I recognize those knees anywhere no I mean skirts is just a a choice I mean if you wear shorts why can't you wear skirts it's crazy it's public yeah guy wants to wear a dress what do I give a [ __ ] if a woman wants to wear a business suit am I mad at Ellen for wearing a business suit you know am I going to be pissed off at Hannah gasby for dressing up like a man like come on you should be able to wear whatever you want to wear I don't care about that but I care about Public Safety like you you shouldn't be able to cover your face where you can't be identified if you commit a crime there we've we've all agreed to that like that's just ridiculous it used to be a thing that you couldn't do you couldn't walk into a store with a bank robber mask on it used to be if you walked into a bank with a mask on people would freak out and now if you during the pandemic they probably start shooting at you yeah you walk into a bank without a mask people get angry put your mask on it's like we lost our mind but the thing is they should have realized it very early on that there's no science to it and there was a doctor who pointed this out very early on in the pandemic and we highlighted it and people were very upset at us this doctor was talking he was a virologist he was saying do you know how ridiculous this is let me show you yeah and he used a vape so he took a big hit of a vape he put a mask on and he blew Vape smoke through and he's like the particles in Vape are so much larger than these virus partic particles if you're breathing through this mask if this mask allows you to take in air you're taking the virus if it allows you to blow out air you're blowing out the virus shut the [ __ ] up yeah this is just stupid this is just pretending and in the beginning I
was like okay everybody just wants you to be a good person you wear the mask but it's it's so weird because during the the crisis we all uh we did UFC fights and in the UFC fights the cornermen used to have to wear masks so like I'll see like highlights from like 2021 and you see like the corner with the mask like God I forgot about this so ridiculous every and their noses hanging out it's like put cover your nose oh yeah okay like is if it mad like okay this this really works and you couldn't walk into a store like this people go that's not good enough this is not good enough oh I forgot my mask what do you want me to do this is the same goddamn thing like what are we doing can I just buy toothpaste like this no you can't you have to have an actual mask well what is the difference between this and a [ __ ] bandan zero there's no difference it's so stupid I went through two years and like needing to yell at my kids all the time because you be traveling with your kids and they never got the stupid things on you know you're like but then you're you're not even you're not even yelling at them about that they're going to prevent him from you're not saving them from a disease you're saving them from being ostracized or yelled at by the flight attendant you spend two years being like put your damn mask on put your masks on I don't think it works like no one it's not about whether it works you just got to do it to not get in trouble yeah I had a conversation with my kids I'm like this does not work just want you to know it's not going to make you safe or it's not they both had covid early on they got over it quick so they weren't nervous about Co at all I go this is just for other crazy people that are riddled with anxiety yeah you put this on they feel okay it's not going to be forever it's going to be and we're going to look back on this we're all going to laugh and that's like every now and then I'll go through like my closet and I'll put a jacket on that I haven't worn forever and I reach into a pocket and I pull out a [ __ ] stupid surgical mask like Jesus Christ I can't believe we went through this yeah we've kind of found them all and got rid of them but I wouldn't be surprised there's one hiding somewhere it was one of the things that sanj gupa brought on brought up when I
did that podcast with him like you sell masks on your website I go what you think I sell them cuz they're real I sell them CU people have to wear them so if you want to wear them wear a little JRE mask like I don't sell them because I think they're good yeah like shut the [ __ ] up I wish I wish they were illegal to sell how about that I don't want would I make a dollar off those [ __ ] you'd for gold The Profit I would pay to have them illegal I I'll give the government $10,000 a year to make masks illegal [ __ ] you you guys are [ __ ] crazy the whole thing was crazy it was really weird it was like a psychology experiment on the whole it was just it was a good experiment to see like how many people around you are [ __ ] who just fall in line the moment things got weird and it's a lot is a lot of people just have no ability to tolerate any discomfort any weirdness any uncertainty any anxiety they just immediately like there's so many people out there that have always had parents and then bosses and then you supervisors and people they were always like following rules always following rules and assuming somebody has your best interest in mind and they don't yeah they don't there's just humans just a bunch of humans out there and uh bunch of people that don't want to take responsibility for this [ __ ] that they've created and they want to lie and distort things and Gaslight the whole population and then somehow or another these people that are doing that are allowed to spend hundreds of millions and billions of dollars on advertising and on on television and so now the television networks will never criticize them because they get all this [ __ ] you know this is like the argument about advertising for pharmaceutical drugs you know we're the only country other than New Zealand in the whole world that allows pharmaceutical drugs to advertise oh is that right yeah it's just us and New Zealand and New Zealand's far more restricted than us but our the way our system is set up all these television networks CNN NBC CBS ABC they all rely on a giant percentage of their advertising budget comes from pharmaceutical drugs and don't you just love those ads but it's not but here's the thing it's not to sell more drugs it's so that those people will never
criticize those trials yeah noce yeah I'm familiar with the argument yeah yeah the ads are great it's like some it'll always be some dude just kicking ass yeah having a great time wakes up jogs with his buddies kicks ass all day at night he's like at night he's like out with his lady you know and he's like getting ready and it kind of ends at the end of the night you're like that's something B getting lucky you know yeah and it's like ask your doctor if such and such you're like [ __ ] I want to kick ass like that old guy and then they read off the side effects the side effects at the end Suicidal Thoughts powerful diarrhea like oh God anal bleeding yeah oh Christ it's a we we live in a weird world man it's a weird world it's a a world you know whenever you involve money in things money profit and the ability to lie you know you get a lot of a lot of real shady things it what what frustrates me already is it's going to be impossible to um explain it like now I can't it's very hard to explain the 9/11 Terror attacks to my kids you know and I want to be when they make in 10 years 20 years whatever when they make a docu series on this on the covid-19 pandemic and the social response and the government response like I really want to be in the room on the edit I like don't forget about you know what I mean like like the the telling of how it happened yeah like I I I if I I would like to go into a time machine and go forward and and see how it is told later yeah you know like we'll watch now you know we'll watch documentary now you know you watch something about the Cuban Missile Crisis right but you just picture dudes that were active during the Cuban Missile Crisis or like no right right they're going to be there's even a term there's a term it's called uh um gel uh some gel syndrome maybe Jamie look it up for us what's the term about it's the it's the alpha no not Alpha gal syndrome Alpha gal is the no it's not alha gal it's something gel the syndrome is this or no Amnesia something gel gel man gel type in gel Amnesia if you don't mind it's killing me gel man Gelman Amnesia it's that let's say you're let's say you're seeing something you have a lot of subject matter expertise in okay
so let's say you're reading you Joe are reading a in someone's analysis explaining like here's what's up with with um mixed martial arts okay an outsider an outside journalist who's assigned to do a piece and they do a piece like what's up with mixed martial arts right and you read it and what's probably the main thing you're going to be thinking the whole time does this guy know what he's talking about yeah and you're gonna be like that that's totally not right that's not the conversation right that's not what that is you missed the point like do you notice that everything you read where you know a lot about it like say let's say you read a piece of reporting and it's a reporting about the podcast industry right where it came from how it's monetized mostly what you're going to feel is that's not what that is right that's incorrect right well this form of Amnesia is that you forget that so then later you're reading an article about a thing you don't know well right and you're like you feel like you're getting the Straight Dope right right right right but someone somewhere who knows the world well is reading it and they're having the same feeling you have every time you read about something you know well which is this person has no idea what they're talking about right so you fall in the Trap the Amnesia you forget and you take things you're not aware of and when you get the dope on them from someone you're forgetting how [ __ ] up everything is the when when you do know about it well the hope is that with AI in these large language models is that AI will be able to distribute information objectively without that and that is the case in a lot of situations where they haven't been they haven't been corrected yet like uh AI is subject to human influence obviously like I'm I'm sure if you're aware of the Google Gemini situation the Google Gemini situation is the best one because they said you know uh create images of Nazis and they had Multicultural Nazis right but if it has to analyze information about specific things just based on just what's actually available often times it will give you a very accurate assessment that you wouldn't get from a newspaper because the newspaper would be more they would be
more interested in adhering to whatever particular ideology they subscribe to yeah so they would flavor things through an ideology and probably gaslite you a little bit about the other side's perspective yeah the the the hope is that in the future with large language models and especially as they become more and more sophistic at you're going to be able to get an accurate objective assessment of things that doesn't have any human influence oh man I don't dude come on isn't imp possible oh it's possible with some The Hope or it's possible but no I I don't have like sure possible I I don't picture that being the case well there are some large language models that aren't [ __ ] with uh especially open- Source ones um the problem is they're they're essentially drawing from the entire internet right so you you would have to assess like where these large language models are getting their information from sure and making sure there so this is the thing you could kind of game that system by uh rigging these large language models to accentuate information that comes from more biased sources you know you could distort the information that people would get and someone would be someone would be motivated to do it yeah until they get so sophisticated that they would be able to discern that and they would be able to base it entirely on objective analysis of statistics and facts and understand what these statistics are I did this little this little event last night at this place here in town called Arena Hall and um the moderator of the event it was like a Q&A or you know chat and he was asking me like as a writer as an author what are your fears about Ai and I'm like AI is like in the very short term like AI is coming for like certain types of writing like certain types of writing are going to be made obsolete by AI yeah but the reason I have the the reason I don't worry about it as of now as a writer is like it's always going to be representative of it's always going to be representative of input right like like the input has to come in from people who are out digesting real experience right right it get faster you know the point I use is if you earli were talking alluded to like the assassination on attempt on
Trump the day before that had you asked AI about details about it it doesn't exist right like the whole thing gets fed in so if you if you remain on some level of Cutting Edge about thought or Cutting Edge about analysis or Cutting Edge about what's going on in the world um you you'll have to start being more careful about being like that your work remains at the Vanguard of of feeding into the system of newness right yeah and that's going to be like a big challenge um like a big challenge as a writer but I remember coming up as a writer too in the old days and being super scared of the internet in general right and and I was like man this ain't gonna be good for a writer well you know they thought about that with the printing press I'm sure yeah sure you know what the the early books do you know what most of the early books were about was monks transcribing them but I don't know when the printing press was produced when they start mathematics maybe nope how to spot witches oh really that was a Hot Topic yeah it was all about witches and Witchcraft yeah has spot sorcery no I didn't know that yeah it was a lot of [ __ ] wow you would think like oh it's just knowledge and information finally the world's going to know the truth no no no no I had no idea there a lot of like how to spot witches they were the most popular books yeah but I think that like um creators yeah from a like a Creator perspective of you got ones that that run away from New right and you got ones that run toward it yeah I used to be the Runa away from I used to something came out and I was like this ain't good what are you now I I guess I've like survived through enough changes in the media landscape that I I'm not as terrified as I once was right yeah like you know I always said like the first time I heard the word podcast was in context of your name right and um and u i remember the first podcast we did you're like what is this I didn't know what the hell was we were at the ice house it was the whole setup was ridiculous yeah you had a delayed flight I had a delayed flight yeah we started real late you were come back from something oh yeah um but anyhow uh yeah I used to be like I used to be I
used to be yeah scared of incoming well most people were in especially podcast it seemed so ridiculous most people thought it was stupid yeah and you even said that you you were doing them and thought it was stupid well I did it cuz I thought it was fun yeah exactly and then you know after a while I was like oh this is actually like a business MH you know I remember having a conversation with you about it I was like you should do a podcast like there's a lot of money in this like it's real now yeah and I would I wouldn't have done it had you said it well it seemed or I'd been late to the game maybe yeah well you got on early well you were such a good guest I was like this is like something you have to do like CU like you have so many opinions on things and you're so well read it's like a perfect place for you where there's no interruption you can just have conversations about things that's like right up your alley I'm glad I did and then the thing is it it just infuses you with uh infuses you with so much knowledge yeah because like you said you get to you get to Corner people you want a corner oh yeah that's the best part yeah the best part is the unintended education yeah you just have conversations with so many people and when else would you get an expert to sit down with you for 3 hours and put their phone aside and just look me in the tell me how this started tell me what how do you figure that out what is that how'd you get involved in this what's what's the beginning of this and then you know it's beneficial to everybody who listens too it's a weird new thing you know what you know what I want to tell you about because it's like this thing I'm trying to hunt down is uh I recently had a guy in my podcast who name is Randy Brown um and uh my brother Danny recommended him too because he works uh he's a Fisheries biologist in Alaska so he came out the show and what what he did is in the 70s he he grew up in New Mexico and always wanted to live in the woods okay like just grew up camping in the mountains and stuff and in the 70s he goes up to Alaska and just goes to live in the bush along the Yukon and then did it I mean for 15 years for 15 years he lived in the bush in Alaska just building little
cabins and lived off the land I mean like didn't wasn't buying groceries like lived off the land trapped in Alaska he tells me this story and I've been I've been trying to put the word out about this um he he tells me a story where I'll have to go check I think it was in 78 in 1978 he's on the Yukon river just Downstream Downstream the Yukon from um Canada he's between Circle Alaska and Eagle Alaska on the Yukon and him and his friends are living their lives in all these like line cabins they got strung up and down the river okay two guys come down the river out of Canada so again this is 1978 two guys come down the river out of Canada on a homemade log raft the this guy in Randy's Circle one of his buddies um he tells this whole story on the podcast but one of his buddies has a cabin down on the river and these two guys pull in in this homemade raft they pull in for the night at this cabin one of these individuals identifies himself as John the Baptist oh boy okay in the middle of the night His companion John the Baptist companion gets back on his raft and scoots oh boy and abandons the dude abandons this guy in 1978 who came out of Canada who identifies himself as John the Baptist John the Baptist becomes this incredible leech on these guys that are living in the bush eating their food using their stuff taking their ammunition um he lingers long enough that it becomes that he can't really get out of that area because of freeze up on the river and they keep telling them you got to go somewhere else and they say you got to leave here you can go stay at one of our other cabins don't touch our [ __ ] he goes up to the other cabin that when they eventually go up to the other cabin he had taken a bunch of their stuff he'd taken some of their Furs and made his own clothes they they boot him out and they tell him what you got to do is you got to go down to the river and go up or down wait for boat and go up or down but he comes up with this cockamamy plan where he's going to go to this area they're like you no way can you walk to that area uh he takes off into the woods now when he does he steals this
guy we had on the podcast Randy Brown he steals Randy Brown snowshoes and takes off Randy Brown gives Chase but it's a real bad snow year he tracked him for about five miles and just said ah never mind it's not worth it the next year he takes a different route and goes into the headwaters of this River where this guy had taken off with his snowshoes and he's canoeing down the river and sees his snowshoes hanging in a tree okay and there's a little cabin there a little line cabin they had out and he goes in and he's the guy stoned dead starved to death in a sleeping bag whoa snowshoes are hanging out starve to death starve to death he say he's nothing but Skin and Bones wow nothing but Skin and Bones um they take him out and their way out in the bush they have no money they just live off the land like they they literally he literally has no money he's got no way to transport a body in the summertime to like eagle or Circle Alaska does he have a responsibility to do that is in this is in the 70s man he he did like he explains himself he explains himself and did well he didn't he laid they took the body out of the sleeping bag they wanted to check it out he said it was just skin on bone wow and it brought up something I'm going to talk about cannibalism in a minute but it was skin on bone and and he doesn't know what to do and he's not bashful about what he did he lays out like why he had to do what he did and they kept sleeping bag to use it because it was their sleeping bag and they laid this body out on the tundra told a few people but didn't really know what to tell him they didn't never caught the guy's name told to a few people a while later he goes back and the body has was gone presume You' been eaten by something so after we do this interview I can't stop thinking about this dude and I'm like how can it not be that someone out in the world like someone that has a kid or a brother or a uncle do you know what I mean yeah and they never know what happened to him yeah there's no you know he's from Canada 1970s 70s calling himself John the Baptist I kind yeah they do and I but I kind of felt like doing like I kind of fell and I I put it out on social media we talk on the podcast I'm
bringing it up here like um dude if like I would love to know that someone said like oh I used to party with a dude named John the Baptist in Canada right yeah who is this guy maybe this will do it I don't know maybe you talking about it like someone will reach out yeah but then you got to wonder if someone's just fabricating it because they want information or they want attention rather for sure it's it kind of sticks in my head and and I and I said to him to Randy um you know he what's crazy is he he want up getting a honorary doctorate and like once him and his wife had kids he became like a World's expert on white fish species of the Yukon river and got like an honorary doctorate oh wow yeah he's like a leading Authority on certain Whitefish species in the Yukon this dude lived in the bush like that all that time wow but I told him I he says man I thought about it a lot you know I thought he goes maybe you'll maybe you'll figure it out I thought about it all the time for a while what happened I asked my brother Danny I'm like when I have this guy on the podcast what should I ask him about he goes ask him about the guy he found so he gives me this book he gives me this book uh uh and it's called Uh death in the barren grounds okay and it was this he's got a he Randy use the term starved out and you could tell that all the time he spent living in the bush like starving to death is very much out his mind like him and his buies even made a a sort of packed right to like hey man like if it comes down to it don't hesitate to eat my body Jes you know which you should he gives you this book death in the baron ground it's about these guys in the 20s these three in the 20s that go up on this Theon river which flows into the Hudson Bay and they go up in the they're kind of north of the tree line but they're in a timbered Grove um and they go up there to trap for the winter and their whole plan is to live off Caribou but the Caribou never come through and the youngest one keeps this meticulous Journal um in this book he keeps this meticulous journal and he documents with painstaking detail the two people he's with starving to death and himself eventually starving to death um he lets off at a point it's unclear when he died he had the
wherewithal to put the journal in the stove and to make a sign that said look in the stove and when they found him a couple years later they were able to find his journal but uh it got so bad they're like crushing animal bone um which is which is a thing that's going to top about this with this Doner party deal I was working on is these guys are crushing animal bone and boiling it to to get some kind of nutritive value out of crushed animal bone and they're eating animal hide okay like you scrape away the hair and you can boil animal skins and and eat them I've done that it just makes like a gelety kind of tasteless like leather noodle basically um and what he's documenting as they're dying from this is um the horrible bowel obstruction and they're trying to make like in his journal he's describing this of trying to make these um these enema devices oh and even for a while on each other trying to perform like a operation on each other each other cuz that bone fragment that they're they're boiling that bone fragment and drinking it but that bone fragment in their bowel is like reforming oh God into bone plugs and even when they find these guys years later a guy from the Canadian mon police is like doing this very you know like a basically a crime scene description of what went on in here and still laying there a couple years later is a plate full of like solidified excrement oh God everything else rotted away these guys are just skeletons but that like bone [ __ ] yeah and you look at like you and I I just finish this book the other day and um so you look and be like oh they're starving to death starving to death but like when you starve other stuff is actually going on and it like that had to have been fatal and we were working on you know mo who's been on the show we've been working on this project which I'm you know wanting to plug but we did an episode on the Donner Party um who died up in the mountains in California and the Doner party uh in addition to the cannibalism they're famous for it was so crazy because before I read that book we're hearing all about that the members of the dining party were eating the crushed bone and eating The Boiled
hides on the earth thing is all hair follicles um would form into dense balls that would like plug your rectum and he's just describing all this as they die it's horrible but that dude Randy Brown gave me that book because you could tell that in his mind man like like starving out like it's stuck with him you know and he's walking around handing out a book about starving to death in the Arctic you know cuz he knew it well but that was like in that same thing like Donner Party being like known for the cannibalism and all that is um all those people dying probably like a lot of the same thing eating that hide and hair and crushed bone just miserable people have a very delusional perspective when it comes to like surviving living off the land how difficult it would be oh in talking to him when he talked about that guy that struck off like this is after a long time he spent in the bush he talked about the guy that struck off and the guy struck off with the 20 2 pistol and uh Randy's like um you cannot in that environment you cannot survive with a 22 pistol like he just knows it categorically you cannot survive with a 22 pistol and the dude didn't yeah how could you yeah well you people would probably think that they're such a badass they would but he how many bullets do you have I don't know I don't know how many he had but he said you won't you won't make it and he made a point that 22 pistol when they found that body that 22 pistol's hanging on a Peg and hanging on a peg inside the cabin where he found him I mean you there's no way you'd have enough ammunition even with a pistol you're limited in your range you're limited in your accuracy no they did everything with 243s in in those years that he did that and they would load like variable loads why variable loads they'd make light loads and heavy loads oh okay for different animals yeah they' make little Grouse loads and [ __ ] they' load their big game bullets you know all the 243 hunt Moose with a 243 Caribou with the 243 where's he getting all the gunpowder or is he getting they were loading their own stuff wow so you have to go somewhere to get resupply yeah they would they had a camp one of their camps
they had a reloading station the various guys Liv in the bush would kind of come in there and use that reloading station and that John the Baptist dude looted that reloading station yeah you got to kill those guys those guys C cause you to starve to death yeah if you're in that kind of an environment and someone's a mooch yeah but you know what's weird is about it that I someone point out to me later I think John the Baptist like John the Baptist from the Bible I think John the Baptist starved to death really so that's like a little bit of a confusion is yeah how would that be Is that real yeah there's this dude there's this kid I I might told you about him this this French kid etan brulee um that the French brought over and like uh he's known as etan Brule the French brought him over during the colonial era and gave him to the tribes so he'd learn their language and eventually he gets Crossways with the hon Indians and the hon Indians killed him and uh allegedly ate him so everybody knows him as etan bruet but which is burnt right but did he get the name after or before like what was it a self fulfilling prophecy yeah like like so you're like well did he just happen like he presumably got burned to death death or boiled or whatever you know so it's like is he at TM Brule because of what happened to him or was he running around with that moniker and then like L and behold so the John the Baptist thing is baffling to me did John the Baptist in the Bible I'm not familiar did he definitely starve can you no people keep telling me that beheaded yeah oh he's beheaded oh he didn't starve the word on the streets is beheaded in prison the word on the streets well someone was someone sent me this big passage talking about his emaciated State looked at maybe he was imated before they cut his head off yeah don't worry about maybe they were saving him from a fate worse than death yeah can I talk about my project sure please do well uh I'm working out with Mo who's been in you know um been on the show before yeah uh Mo and I um we did the very early meaters together you you probably met him that way right originally I met him that way and then when he did um Bourdain show
yep so we did very early meaters together and we've always kept in touch and he went on and did all that you know crazy stuff with Bourdain and got heavily involved in that and then after Bourdain's death there was this kind of uh I don't know man almost like this like Exodus of talent like all these people that worked on that great show you know um and they went on to do other stuff and then Mo and I got joined up on this and we' worked on Mo's a showrunner on it and we've worked on it together and uh it's coming out January 28th and it's a show on History Channel where we look at outdoor Mysteries so I brought up we did an episode on Doner party and um you might ask what's the mystery about the Doner party but it's kind of like what happened um could it have gone differently like what mistakes were made and most these Mysteries that we do are things that I have that most people have some awareness around right like you you've heard you've at least heard of it and I think that people think about the Doner party for instance just take an example um you make people make when they're making a joke about cannibalism You' be like oh down party you know I mean like people don't realize what happened there but and and going to that place uh I think I never realized about it that that there was 90 people that got stranded in the Sierra nid that winter 1846 to 1847 um a thing that you never ever realize and that changes everything I've ever thought about it half of those more than half of those were kids oh my God yeah you don't think about it that way right it's mostly children oh and you get into all this wild stuff about it like uh you're trying to keep your kids alive yeah right so there's this sort of like uh earlier I said I'll talk you know touch on cannibalism and I talk about Randy Brown making that cannibalism packed um you're trying to keep your kids alive and the kids by and large the kids survived the kids survived at a much higher rate than adults and out of adults that survived parents did better parents were more likely to survive they when they sent a little subgroup off to try to go get help a lot of the people died on the way of trying to get help parents lived parents who
had kids back at the main Camp survived so it's this whole weird thing about like the psychology of why I keep going on yeah you know what I mean and then like you think about it from that angle like if your kids were faced with starving to death you would absolutely feed your kids human meat yeah 100% yeah right so you look at like this American Horror Story but in the end like of those 90 people like half lived you know half of them survived and they just they did they always did just like what they needed to to live you know but then there's the those families still carry the stigma of course you know ter like it's terrible stigma but like getting into that like getting into that story and starting to um realize that and then following that up with reading that book about like the pain and anguish of of starving to death like you wind up like having just more uh I W up with a lot more empathy and just you know um you almost kind of want to honor those people rather than condemn them as like these like like I said it's like an American Horror Story you can't condemn them we would all have done the exact same thing to to condemn them is just so that it's it's a horrible way to look at it it's a Survival Story I mean human beings will like it's like those uh soccer players that got yeah in the plane crash or do you know the story of the two boats that tried to make their way across the Arctic it was like was it um was the terror and another boat there's a Netflix uh series talk yeah but the Netflix series is like a horror series so they bring in like a mystical monster and stuff and and the people all resort to cannibalism but they tried to make it across this uh path and they got Frozen in in their boats and they were waiting in the spring for the The Ice to thaw and it never thawed and they got stuck there and then they tried to walk out and and make it to the to the ocean and they never made it and yeah but and they was they W up having to do cannibalism yeah yeah in in the Doner party they would have times in some of these cases they had a little system where you would not where you would keep the carcasses
separate so that people didn't have to eat their own kin eat their own relatives they mostly ate uh people that died of natural causes but at the time there was no prohibition there was no legal prohibition on killing Indians they had two Indian guides with them and a guy murdered them wow they murdered him to eat him and never fac any repercussions for it it it was more illegal it was more illegal to kill someone's cow than it was was to kill two Native Americans wow yeah he just walked everybody knew he did it never faced any repercussions for it murdered two people to eat them other than that they were eating people that were already there Jesus when we were up there uh filming and Doner pass we met these people and there saying that these guys were doing this thing about places named uh with Christmas names and they had thought Don thought like Don and Blitzen oh God the funniest man that's crazy yeah so I spent a ton like I spent you know two months um two months travel Mo um maybe a little over two months travel Mo working on this whole thing it's been fun though man so what is the name of the show it's called hunting history oh yeah it's not a hunting show hunting history there it is me on that one that episode oh it's like a whole little trailer so what is the the idea of the show it's like outdoor Wilderness Mysteries outdoor Mysteries and it we do some things that are decades old we do some things that are centuries old um when I was uh for instance when I was growing up in the Great Lakes region there's a the the first ship they ever built on the Great Lakes was called the Griffin and no one's ever found that ship that ship went missing in the Great Lakes and um people are still trying to hunt for that ship it's kind of like you know it's regarded as the Holy Grail of Great Lake shipwrecks there's still people actively searching for it we do one on Doner party what's in the ship that they're trying to get it' be gone now it was full of beaver pelts it was full of about like six tons of beaver pelts wow and uh there's all these different theories about that the crew Mutiny whatever but there's a guy this dude named Steve libert who came out of uh who came out of like Naval intelligence
the naval intelligence world and this guy named Steve libert is the latest um has the latest claim of having found the Griffin so I went and Dove I went and Dove that that site to check out his claim of having identified this ship yeah yeah I don't think he's got it no what do you think it is what do you think you found there are it kind of blows your mind when you think about the Great Lakes there are literally thousands of missing ships and then there are many many ships that are there but no one knows what they are and I think he's I think he's found a very old ship but I don't think he's found the gri 6,000 and 10,000 shipwrecks wow yeah wow the burden the burden of proof on finding the Griffin is is hard so this dude name you've heard of the guy LOL LOL no he went up dying down in this snack of the woods um he built the first ship and he he got above Niagara Falls and built a big ship and built the first ship that ever sailed the upper Great Lakes so he went all through the upper Great Lakes went to Green Bay filled it full of beaver hides to get himself out of debt sends all those Beaver hides back down to Niagara but they go missing along the way he makes his way down he winds up being the first European to descend the Mississippi to the mouth and then later he gets into like a um a mutiny of sorts um down in the Lower Mississippi gets in a mutiny of sorts one of his guys shoots and kills him just kind of this whole just run of shitty luck but he lost his ship so there's all this different evidence of of pointing to where this ship might lie but it's almost certainly like um it's somewhere it's somewhere you know because stuff lasts so long like in that fresh water stuff lasts so long you go look you go dive down and look at ships that are 100 years old 200 years old looks like you could refurbish the things really you know except for the ones get broke up by Ice yeah so that ship's laying around wow I'd like to tell you we found it well God D I hung out with a bunch of dudes that looking for it the lakes are so big yeah I hung out with dudes that are looking for it and now people are getting really good
at it cuz all the sophisticated sonar that's why they're finding all this crazy [ __ ] I don't think people understand how big the Great Lakes are no they're literally like oceans yeah they're so big especially when they add them all together you know in place is pretty deep but yeah they're littered with stuff man and dudes like there's just there's just common dudes now that can buy really sophisticated sear and underwater cameras and people are just finding stuff like mad oh now there's more sophisticated technolog you can just cruise around you can just cut grids on Sonar so you got dudes that are out there just identifying wreck after wreck after wreck right now that's why there's a lot of enthusiasm that someone's going to turn this boat up but it has these big cannons it should have these big French built cannons and until someone finds a cannons no one's going to buy what you're saying cannons yeah they yeah LOL brought cannons from Europe mounted them on the boat so like to in case someone was trying Pirates did they have Pirates back then they did but also they just you know try to intimidate Native American tribes and you know they'd get them into the fur trade but also there's like Rogue people and you're also at that time the French are duking it out with English had a big toe hold up in Hudson Bay um so you got the English there you got the Spanish to the South just a ton of conflict and people still trying to Duke it out over who's going to control the Great Lakes wow so there's this argument too which is crazy like picture we had a say picture if we had a naval vessel that sank off France right now it's not France's it's not France's boat right right because we have all these agreements in place it's like our boat so they would have to hand it over to us is flying under our flag it's it remains our vessel there's this argument that um lol's ship was flying under a French flag whoever finds that ship there's an argument that the French would be able to claim that ship so even if some dude like some freelancer was to find it and find those cannons and [ __ ] and finds this ship there's an argument that the French could say we'll take it from here son whoa yeah flying under our flag and our
International treaties mean that that's our boat which would decentivize me in wanting to find yeah like [ __ ] that imagine you go through all that work yeah they do it for Glory gold wrecks like shipwrecks and people like hunting for those things that's a fascinating world it is man that's a CU if you get lucky and if you find one that's filled with like Roman coins yeah like you we're talking about billions of dollars lot a lot of money be made we were we were going to do our last episode when we went and did the Doner party what we were supposed to be doing is we were supposed to be hanging out with guys that are still this whole Fleet of Spanish vessels that went down off the uh East Coast of Florida so the the Atlantic side of Florida we were going to go down with these guys that are still fighting over and finding all this stuff from all these sunken ships but then the the hurricane like I mean like passed right over it so we didn't get to go do that we didn't go do that show um we did one about uh that centered that wanted becoming mostly a story that centered around um in the 70s there's this aircraft that was carrying the speaker of the house so do you remember um uh was it is it n no hey Jamie I I I I I hate to be treating you like a research assistant here Hil K Roberts that's who it you you know the journalist K Roberts from like NPR and [ __ ] okay yes K Roberts father was this guy hail bogs okay hail bogs was a Democrat and he was a speaker of the house in the 70s and Alaska had at that time only one Alaska had a sole Congressman there was an airplane that had baggage their sole Congressman the Speaker of the House an assistant and a pilot that went down in Alaska in the 70s still no one's found that plane speaker of the house like imagine if that happened now you know what I mean um yeah 1972 yeah but it makes sense in the last it does but then you get into the huge number of all these missing aircraft and like all that search centered around this Glacier um that it would been that it would have been swallowed by a glacier and we went to this other site where this military transport plane years ago did go down in a glacier and
the glacier swallowed it and I think it was you know I don't know 20 some years later that Glacier started to spit that plane out at the Co of the glacier like it carried it I don't know what it is 13 miles W under the ice and then started to spit out human remains and plane Parts Every Spring the military goes to the foot of that Glacier Every Spring they go there or sorry every summer they go to the tow of that Glacier and they're still identifying they're still identifying human remains that are moving out of that thing miles away from where that plane burrowed into that Glacier wow yeah we went right there 1952 wow look at that that wheel yep and on top of that Glacier um we had got there after we flew over in the helicopter they don't want you land in there but on top of that Glacier is all this orange paint orange paint spots they weren't working there anymore but you can tell they were in there marking everything that you could see coming out of that as that Glacier recedes wow and they're marking all those pieces so um this this other Glacier where like most of that search focused for that begot bogs flight focused on this one Glacier but if you do the math on that Glacier had it gone into that Glacier where they had spent a ton of time looking like into a crass in that Glacier had it gone into that Glacier the glacier would have spit it out by now because you can kind of track how much a glacier moves every year so now it's kind of the idea that it was in that Glacier has been kind of put to rest oh here's dude searching that one oh wow you could see as you move how far it travels wow yeah yes we went there we went down into some of those carasses like that too do you you climb down into one of those things yeah which is scary as [ __ ] [ __ ] that cuz that stuff is alive man it's moving I mean not like literally alive but it's like groaning and moving yeah we went down back back down to one of those sound like you know it was pretty quiet that day it was actually more peaceful there because you know how much that all that cold air from that ice generates so much wind mhm
we we land this helicopter there and um the wind's howling and I don't know much about Aviation I mean I use it a lot but uh the wind's so bad I was asking the guy what point do you risk that your helicopter is going to blow off the glacier and a couple minutes later he's a very experienced pilot but a couple minutes later he winds up tethering down his helicopter because he's like now you're like [ __ ] with my head so he tethers down his helicopter on these ice screws you know to like make sure the the the helicopter doesn't slide and go down into a Kass and then you you know I just I was with a very experienced ice climber but uh harness up and pick your way down but anyways it's like def it's like so loud and you hear a lot of the you know the noise of all that ice moving because it's moving all those rocks and everything it just gr it pulverizes stuff as you see with that that aircraft um but when you drop down in that when you drop down in that Kass and go down that sucker it gets like unbelievably calm real calm how far did you go down oh [ __ ] not that far probably 30 feet that's far enough oh it's far enough for sure it's unnerving it's unnerving it'sing for me just hearing I remember you telling about your like your uh you know that uh that that chamber you like to go into yeah yeah it's not quite like that but it's like you just all of a sudden like but you're also there just thinking like how you just how you could get um smushed oh just obliterated yeah you know there's stories I was hunting with this dude years ago and he used to he used to be um involved with Outward Bound and they were doing a glacier hike a guide was doing a glacier hike and they had a kid like a student I think it was Outward Bound they had a student go off to take a piss and into one of those things never found because there's big Rivers flowing underneath that stuff oh God right so picture you like you go down so you're down there you can hear water running everywhere you can hear Rivers underneath you inside that but you're you're roped up you know but even the Rope you're on you're just screwing screws into the
ice and then at a certain air temperature right like it the screw conducts heat you know so at a certain air temperature like if you drive that screw in and that screw is conduct is pushing heat it'll melt the ice around the threads so you'll actually like drill these big holes into the glacier like a V picture I'm picture you're coming in like the a V and the two upper parts of the V are like 30 inches apart and you drill at a 45 degree angle until those holes meet then you snake a rope down one hole and get it snaked out the other hole and then tie a knot in that and that's what's holding you oh [ __ ] that cuz if you put that screw in there at a certain temperature the the threads of the screw are moving like solar heat and Atmospheric heat down the threads it can melt the thread out oh so you're you're just you're tied in on a little like yeah you're you're you're like tied hoping it holds on on do a hunk of the ice and you bag down into those suckers dude it's like it's ass pucker well that's how they found the ican right he was in a Kass was he in a crass wasn't he I think he fell into a a glacial kavas oh [ __ ] I don't remember that I think as the glacier melted that's how they found his body oh I know they found him on a melted glacier but I know he it was I didn't know that was supposed that he fell into aass I'm not sure but I think that was the story that they feel like he fell like he was involved in some sort of Mortal Combat with someone got shot with an arrow yeah he was all tore up yeah yeah they made a movie about his last days a fictional movie really I Haven watched yeah it's a European fictional movie did you ever see the movie and it sort of sets up the whole circumstance right I haven't seen it yet but it sets up the whole circumstance there's a really dumb movie oy was name yeah ay they named him I'm sure that wasn't his real name no [ __ ] name he had a tattooed on his shoulder that was his wife he had tattoos yeah he did have tattoos which is really wild thousands of years ago right um there's a really dumb movie about an Iceman that uh I think it was like the 1980s I think it's called Iceman no I remember that they they
bring a guy back to life yeah and then the wife falls in love with him and [ __ ] [ __ ] know that happens man that happens in there so dumb yeah the the yeah the Iceman uh takes a liking to this guy's wife oh that's the plot yeah yeah yeah I thought it was more like a ET plot no no no like they they they resuscitate him and then the scientists want to get at him is this it yeah that's who he starts getting with is this the same one yeah the guy gets back to life and I think he falls in love with the lady they he like he's hanging out with people and then you know the Iceman that's her yeah I think he winds up falling in love with her and the scientist gets real mad it's what the plot of Ino man they just that yes it is short BR and Frasier we made it yeah they thaw him out and he's okay which is [ __ ] hilarious in and of itself the other night we were watching um watching these old movies like this uh the other night we were watching um Timothy Hut and Temple of uh Indiana Jones and Temple of Doom and you know the the love interest like the the Indies love interest in that movie I can't remember what her name is but anyways we're watching it with our with our youngest kid and um who really wanted to watch Indie Anna Jones movie and my wife's like man you just can't have teeth like that anymore in the movies the love interest you know like you you forget like how perfect like oral processes have made everybody's teeth oh and so here's like this woman who's like job is like you know she's like the hot woman in the movie that everyone want that everyone's going to fall in love with and you look and you're like you're like yeah you're right like teeth are so perfect on everybody now you know and you're looking at an old movie you're like oh that was before they were able to do all that right that's funny we watch we watched that stupid show uh uh on New Year's Eve you know that ball dropping MH thing yeah and just you know every single person even kind of involved in that whole production has those teeth yeah well most of those teeth are fake now oh no that's what I'm saying man like absurdly so you know and it was just really funny to look at that and be like you're right like there's something
that looks like you can't put your finger on it's like the the the the heroin absent perfect teeth right do you remember Lauren Hutton had that gap between her teeth it was kind of hot yeah yeah it was like part of her her charm she had this Gap yeah nowadays you'd feel some pressure to go tighten that up yeah you know probably they put some [ __ ] on your teeth and tight you be in the big movies you got to tighten that up tighten it up it's funny you were talking about the beaver pelts mhm because uh you were the first person to explain to me like the richest man in the world at one point in time his business was beaver pelts yeah it was America's first homegrown millionaire uh John Jacob Aster that is so crazy yeah so he was a German uh he came over as a young kid he didn't have you know um broke penulis Aster comes over um just an immigrant right comes to the US he's trying to figure out a way to make his to to to make make his way in America and in New York he meets a guy in the fur business like a furer and the guy says a lot money to be made in in Furs and um and that was like that was the commodity for uh North America when you look at all the English Powers coming or all the European powers coming to establish colonies you know it's known like the Spanish come in and they get like all that Aztec Gold All That Inc and gold other European powers were like jealous about the wealth was pulling out in Mineral wealth and they always thought that in in our area and what's now the continent of us you know eventually gold did come out but they were sort of like primarily like we need our own gold Fields but what emerged was the was fur you know fur was our thing fur was like the thing of value so Aster became a fur Trader um and you know helped launch these fur trapping Expeditions what and then became involved in what we now call the Mountain Man area like when you hear the term mountain men um um the Mountain Man era so we uh in in my sort of other job outside of doing my History Channel show like we do audio originals and um we did one on the deer skin trade called The Long Hunters it was about Daniel Boon 1770s in the deer skin trade and right now uh we're coming out with one called me eaters American history the mountain men and it
covers that like John Jacob Aster era of the Beaver trade and what all those do so when you hear about Jim Bridger John Colter Jed Smith what they were producing they were producing a material that would be used to make felt hats like that's what that was all about wow rather than you'd think if all and when when they would trap a beaver so you know the Revenant how many [ __ ] beavers were around back then a lot you know more more even though we've recovered them really successfully there were far more beavers back then than what's the estimated population of beavers back then people invaded in the tens of millions wow you know what are they now well I don't know I don't know no I do know because I looked at it the other day but I forgot what it is I forgot what it is it's a they're very recovered across a big part of their range um but nowhere near what it was at the time you know the the the the whole continent um was shaped by beavers like they they manipulate their lands more than anything besides humans right um but people had always whittel away at him you know like earlier I mentioned Daniel Boone like his primary job was a deer skin he was in the deer skin trade and what they were using for back then you know you see really old pictures of like kings and [ __ ] and they got those kind of white pants on it's probably a buck skinn pant right so our whole term with like when we say a buck something's worth a buck right that's about the equivalent value of a deer skin right so you know that's where that term came from those guys at the same time they would hunt hunt deer skins in the summer cuz they wanted them real thin and then they would switch and they would hunt beaver pelts in the winter to for wool felt to create wool felt but we kind of gradually uh extrap like wiped out Beaver numbers and then when you get to 1804 in the Lewis and Clark expedition Lewis and Clark push into the interior into into the northern Rockies and around the headwaters of the Missouri and when they come back to St Louis like one of the things they report on is like holy [ __ ] like we found the the the last great stronghold of the Beaver is in the Rockies and that's what pushed this whole Mountain Man era so when you watch the Revenant like Hugh glass you know
getting mauled by the grizzly those guys were all like their thing was they were Beaver Trappers and earlier I mentioned the English up around Hudson Bay so you're familiar with this thing called the Hudson Bay Company from from history yes it like a fur trading Enterprise the Hudson Bay Company and the English always had this model of the fur trade where they would build posts and an incentivize Indians to hunt fur or trap fur they didn't trap like the the English weren't themselves Trappers the English were Traders and it would incentivize tribes to go trap and bring them The Furs in the Rockies that didn't work they couldn't get these nomadic equestrian bison Hunters with the program they they thought it was by and large um the sentiment was it's beneath us we're not going to give up our whole life way everything we need comes from the Buffalo we live in big family groups we follow the herds like I don't I'm not going to go trap Beaver for you it's of no interest to me so then they're like well [ __ ] how are we going to get the beaver and so they start hiring dudes they start hiring orphans and people that that that uh were under indentured servitude and ran away whatever they hired these big groups of Americans out of the colonies the former colonies because that time of the United States they hire these guys and say you're going to go out and live for years at a time in the Rockies and trap beaver and here's where to meet us on such and such date every year so go to this Valley right go to Jackson Hole or go to Daniel Wyoming or Bear Valley wherever and we'll meet you in June and you bring all the [ __ ] you caught and we'll give you some more equipment and like that was the mountain man all that stuff when they caught those beavers there's no need they didn't want the meat they could eat the meat but there's no value in the meat the hide they don't even want the leather from the hide that was thrown away they don't want the main guard hairs like so if you look at a pelt um you got these silky long guard hairs and then there's an under wall underneath it they don't want the silky long guard hair all they're after is the under fur on on the hide to line hats but
there to to make felt but there was so much there was so much conning and scamming of people taking [ __ ] that wasn't Beaver wool and trying to pass it off as Beaver wool you had to ship the whole hide to Europe so they could confirm that it was in fact a beaver hiide at which they would hire people to pick the guard hair off shave that under wool off throw the guard hair away uh throw the leather away take that under wool and turn it into a felt to make a a hat wow like an Ebenezer Scrooge Top Hat that's what that [ __ ] was about so when this dude when LOL you know comes over and and builds the Griffin like that first ship is so crazy like he was building that ship to transport Beaver hides because traditionally they'd always done it with canoes and he's like I got a better idea I'm going to build a giant ship fill that sucker full of beaver hides and I'll get rich thousands of beaver Heights but it but it but it yeah his ship vanished and that's what they were still up to in the Mountain Man era and that whole industry was born in this in this in this mountain man project we're doing like that whole history was born um you kind of say it was born with the Lewis and Clark expedition and identifying this this tremendous population of beavers in the northern Rockies and it kind of ended in 1840 if there's time the the market collapsed if there's a time where you could go back in history and just observe like they could put you in like a [ __ ] a bulletproof bubble and just like you don't no one knows you're there yeah you can just go watch where would you go would you go to that time no I just changed my time for a long time I knew what my time was but I just changed my time recently what what does it I'll be happy to I'll be happy to what it used to be uh there used to be an idea um that's existed for much of my life is uh about the peopling of the Americas and um sometimes time maybe around 15,000 years ago there was so much of the Earth's water was tied up in glaciers that Asia and Alaska were connected by a chunk of ground the size of Texas the bearing landbridge when people hear the bearing land bridge you kind of picture
this little like it's like Moses like crossing the part you know the parted Red Sea but the be you would you could have lived and died on the you know Generations were probably born and died on the bearing land bridge with no idea that it was a bridge like I said there was a chunk of ground the size of Texas that much water was tied up in glaciers um people crossed they almost certainly weren't saying like hey Bob let's go to Alaska but they were doing their thing they were hunting and moving and they crossed and then because of all that ice once they moved into what's now Alaska the theory held that they were trapped there by glacial ice and eventually there was this thing called the ice free Corridor opened up around like at what a spill out around Edmonton Alberta and the idea was the first people to lay eyes on the continental US when that Corridor opened up when that little Gap through the glaciers opened up the first Americans like Spilled Out onto the American great ples killing mammoths with with Spears as all this new information has emerged um the dates don't line up anymore so we we did a hunting history episode about this this very question of um how and when and who were the first people to enter the continent right and now um that was called the ice free Corridor hypothesis but it's been made more and more untenable by finding these super old sites for a while the oldest site we knew about in the new world was in was a site called Mont Verde down in Chile so if people came in at the bearing landbridge why is the oldest known site of human occupation all the way down in Chile how old is it it was somewhere around 13 14 what about those uh New Mexico footprints that are 22,000 years old again yeah it's clouded picture there's a lot of the dating yeah the dating on that is clouded but anyways it's like Antiquity in America is much older than originally thought right so and then there's now currently the oldest site is on the Columbia River drainage um near a place called Pittsburgh Landing uh there's a a really old site there and it winds up being that it doesn't line up with the idea of people entering this ice free Corridor cuz like
when did the corridor when was it open when was it possible to pass through but now you have all these older dates and then people are even starting to question the validity of the idea of like that this corridor open when they thought it did so now the fashionable idea it's it's scenes Rock Solid and we we film much of the episode up at our up up at our fishack um there's this Theory now called the kelp Highway that you had uh this pretty stable environment all along the Pacific coast and it was defined by Kel beds enormous enormously rich in fish resources enormously rich in shellfish right um and that the first Americans were were a seafaring people and all that [ __ ] about what Glaciers are melted and not melted and when this and that Corridor and land bridges open was a moot point because these were people that um just came down the coast and they knew how to survive in that Marine that Kel marine environment and they went South and went South and went South and things remain remarkably similar and with like great speed with great speed all the way down the coast to all there's people in Chile wow and instead of this idea that people came into the Great Plains and then spread to the coast it's that people came down that route and you know that really old site the the currently oldest the currently oldest like Ironclad absolutely accepted academic consensus accepted site is that snake riversite um or on the Columbia drainage um that they came down the coast and then the the continent was populated by people who just followed these major rivers these salmon runs and stuff Coastal fishing people migrated up these Rivers following fish and then turned into over time became these mammoth hunters and these interior grassland Hunters but their their Genesis was in these seafaring people and as people came down they kind of filled in so you go to like you know the the the the the the kinget or the Haida right um that live along the the Alaskan Coast now like that's their ancestors right they were the they were they were perhaps people living that way in those places were the first people to enter the continent so so my time machine would be whatever the hell day that was that's
what it would be to see that man cuz picture like you know picture me the first person or the first group of people like to see a continent yeah you can't even you know what I mean yeah how do we even know that that's the case though if there's people that were before that that's that there's an argument that the thing is like there's an argument there's arguments humans came from Africa right that well yeah that that's the origal the human diaspora is like anatomically like the the sort of widely accepted scientific explanation is the anatomically and behaviorally modern humans um there was many waves of hominids Coming Out of Africa but sometime around 70,000 years ago um our current human ancestors came out they came into a Europe that was populated by neanderthals perhaps other hominids um they kind of won right and then and then spread around the world in the last continent outside of Antarctica which was never you know the last continent to be occupied by humans outside of Antarctica which arguably was never occupied by humans would have been South America was the last the last stop wow um it's wild is there's monkeys down there yeah that's what's Wild but man there's all there's this there's this there's this Theory called the solutran hypothesis which is that that Northern Europeans came over much much like 10 you know 10 plus thousand years ago there's always these different ideas that that someone you know someone from somewhere else blew in on a raft there's always the thing but but what I'm talking about is the sort of like again the kind of like academically accepted idea the sort of mainstream idea remains and it's supported by genetic linguistic everything is that that humans came out of um the Americans that you know our Native Americans came out of C IIA through a Siberian pathway probably in waves you know the people now if you refer to not like Northern Cal peoples Eskimo Inuits um they were a later wave they were different than what became the athabascans to the South it was like a later wave so there could have been
repeated waves of people coming but I've always been interested in the first wave yeah whoever they were the first wave and when was that are are you aware of the sage wall in Montana no I'm aware of Montana you live there the sage wall is a recent discovery it it was on private property and um uh these people uh it was completely covered with woods and uh you know dead Falls and everything and they start clearing it out and they found this thing that looks remarkably like a constructed wall That's the sage wall in Montana it's very it's very strange it's very strange and it's a vertical wall it goes down 13 ft under the ground and uh it's long and straight and it's very confusing because it very much looks like placed stones that were cut and moved somehow uh in this particular way and uh there's a lot of debate about whether or not that's a wild looking wall wild looking well see if you could find the overhead of it Jamie cuz when you look at the overhead you're like Jesus Christ this looks like people put this there yeah the debate is is it natural manmade yeah well there is some people that think it's man-made and there's some people that think it's natural but it's leaning much more towards um manmade but it's confusing because you know I am yeah I'm familiar with that area yeah no I got it it's real weird real weird looking there's a lot of a lot of natural formations yeah because you get fissures and rocks that are filled from volcanic activity sure it's puzzling it's definitely maybe we'll do an episode on that I think we will well this gentleman right there see that guy down there with the beard Jamie that's that's a guy I think it's wandering wolf on um uh I think that's his name on uh YouTube yeah wandering wolf uh he's been studying this for a while please ignore his nose ring was that what that was I couldn't tell if he had a bug or if that was a nose ring nose ring but like this is crazy it's crazy because they're flat and straight and they look fairly uniform and they look like they're cut into position and there's also a bunch of these uh you know where they would grind things there's these posts that sit out that look like they're carved outside that that are similar to a lot of stuff they find in South America
around like Machu picu and stuff like that it's very very weird stuff well because if if that was made by people who and when and how um yep yeah my I'm I'm going natural but I know we'll do a future episode on that question I I think natural too until you look at some some of them like some of those images go back to some of those images Jamie some of those images are like how the [ __ ] like they're so flat and straight and look at that that is INS from that angle it's insane from that angle you would no doubt look and be like that's a man-made wall it looks very stacked they're all cut Square what's that Jamie kind of looks fake but does look fake is that a fake image or is that the real image I can't tell that added to the picture yeah it doesn't look like the same stuff from the video okay m well let's see some of the images from the video well that one up is the that one there is real that's legit that looks more real well no natur that's something different that's not the same site look at the it looks like a so yeah certain like the yeah that looks like that's not the same site and that's not a vegetation that grows around there that's some different goofing around [ __ ] just do the video then yeah so here's here's a video this guy walking around it's really interesting stuff because there's so much evidence of humans right the the you know the mortal and pestle grinding holes and [ __ ] are all there so there was some human occupation in this area the question is like was this put there by humans or is this a natural feature that they found and just exploited have you followed that news that has come out about that boy that anzic one boy in Montana no um sounds like a Spielberg movie don't it anzic one it does so there is a there's a clovis child that they found years ago in near wilsa Montana um it was from a clovis Hunter culture this child had been buried with projectile points and ochre um and they've recently done work on like like stabil isotope work and it was like he had a he would had a diet of woolly mammoth whoa you know which people always thought yeah right but that's like this thing that gets always kicked around is um and and I have a friend uh David Meltzer I don't know if you're looking for guest suggestions but
he finger and Meltzer [ __ ] love him but anyway Meltzer um he's an anthropologist and he's always been involved in this debate about where these these Clovis hunters and these Ice Age Americans like to what degree were they really these like uh Northern wild men killing mammoths with Spears and [ __ ] right um and people have tried to like over the years sort of emasculate these Ice Age Hunters being like oh they probably weren't really killing all these mammoths you know they probably found them and scavenged them you know and and in explaining way David hate me saying this but uh explaining away evidence that they were slaying mammoths and also explaining away the theory that um that they killed all the mammoths right MH um and they were eating like that they were eating a much more varied diet and using plant resources and they were kind of like a Kinder gentler Ice Age Hunter M so it's funny that out of this as this debate is always waged on and be like this accusation that in creating our idea of these Ice Age Hunters you create the kind you wish was there right so a dude like me is going to be like yeah man Mammoth Hunters right right you know and some more dude would be like oh no um you know yeah Barry Pickers right like they were gentle um but they they've finally just did all this work and and lo and behold um he was young but he uh the uh he was eating mother you know drinking mother's milk um and it was uh they were Mammoth eaters wow you know which backs up this idea that those big ass points um those big ass points they made were like being used I participated in this study uh me and some of the guys I work with participated in this study with Meltzer this guy named meton Aaron who runs an experimental archaeology Lab at Kent State University and they gave us all these stone tools and we had a dead bison laying there and we just we were supposed to spend the day butchering the Bison with stone Flakes and also with Clovis points so we're supposed to butcher half with Clovis points and butcher half with stone blades they just want people who were like expert butcher to do it like you don't really know how anybody did anything but just to see because what
what the problem they have when they're looking at the the archaeological record is the only thing left is bone and stone everything else is gone so when you find some Mammoth you know you find a man with rib cage eroding out of a riverbank and lo and behold there's a projectile Point laying there we had always said oh um someone stabbed it with that point and killed it but do you really know that right you'll see a mark on a rib and you're like oh see they shot it in the rib and that's why it's got a scratch on its rib well do you really know that we just assume right so we did this project of to butcher this whole thing a fresh dead bison Stone points and then they go then they went and cleaned all the bones um this guy John Hayes from Hayes tax Studio did this did this way to treat the bones and clean them where you're not messing up the bones at all so now you have a set of bones that you know what happened to them right and you have a set of stone tools that you know they were used for and the idea is you're creating something to be to compare you know like there's this famous fome site where all these these uh out of New Mexico where all these bison skulls these Ice Age bison skulls they look different like that skull you got out in your out in your studio in the ENT um Big Horn you know longer horned animal they all got these cut marks on the bone right here inside the jaw mark inside the jaw and people have been like oh it must have been from extracting the tongue and I even thought that I went I went to SMU and looked at those skulls and held those bones in my hand and I'm like oh look it's they were probably getting the tongues out and made all those cut marks inside the Jawbone but what funny um in going and extracting the tongue with stone tools I didn't do [ __ ] would have left any kind of Mark like that H you know and again you don't know how they did what they did but it just it creates an interesting data set so that when you do look at cut marks on Bones you can start put putting together what might have caused it that what what he wants to work on next is they want to do a ostrich what do you think those cut marks were if they weren't extracting the tongues dude I got no idea wow you you're looking at him right
there I don't know when I extracted the tongue with the stone I extracted the tongue with stone tools and I didn't have any need to go anywhere near that thing like that I don't know but just goes to show like you you look at stuff you find a projectile point with a rib cage and you're like they stabbed it right but then well maybe they maybe that we looking at Clovis points all wrong maybe clova points were knives maybe that big jati point was a clovis knife or maybe it was both things and maybe when you find a mammoth skeleton that's got two or three broken Clovis blades it wasn't that they had been jabbed into it necessarily maybe they were the butchering tools but then what would be the killing tools it's a great question yeah I personally like me not being an academic who's invested my entire career into this question uh I do know this like I think that when people talk about oh they were finding them like I spent a lot lot of time outside you just don't find all this fresh dead [ __ ] laying around everywhere right right you can you can spend many many many many many days out wandering around the woods you don't find like fresh dead right edible materials right you find rotten [ __ ] dried up [ __ ] you find skeletons but I don't I don't I have a hard time swallowing the idea that that all these Mammoth kill sites were just where they happen to stumble across a fresh dead Mammoth yeah that seems ridiculous and cut it up with a projectile point or up with a blade like they were killing mammoths yeah that's my my take on it more sense and probably the mammoths weren't aware that they were even going to hunt them they probably weren't being hunted by anything that's this idea when we're talking about that ice free Corridor deal and you look at how fast humans filled up the the North and South America like a a sort of motivational driver for that really quick spread would be that let's say you were the you're you you pop out in the Great Plains and the animals have never seen a person right a mammoth's never seen a person um you just walk up and kill it right and you do that for a couple months in some Valley and then everything gets like oh [ __ ] it's one of them things and runs
away well jump to the next Valley yeah and find more of the ones that don't you know find more of the ones that have never seen you yeah you know like I I've had occasion before to see like a a elk that would have had no way to encounter a dog encounter a dog and their attitude is kind of like um the hell is that you I mean they're like curious about it they're kind of looking at it so you can imagine like the these these early peoples could probably just walk up on a lot of [ __ ] and just kill it probably right yeah like what what's this this thing tiny thing yeah what's thing gonna do [ __ ] out of here and all sudden like son [ __ ] stabbed me so that was an idea that push like how fast people spread around and then they weren't fighting each other cuz they were all all this there's no comp comption for resource they're not fighting each other and they're enjoying like very high reproductive rates because they're drowning in food and there's no conflict I wonder what the wildlife populations were like back then too before humans like when humans did encounter when they first encountered North American wildlife I wonder what the populations were staggering must have been crazy just staggering staggering wow we'll never know we'll never know but if you had a time machine that's your spot well they're getting closer to knowing now cuz now they can do crazy [ __ ] like they can go into pond sediments you know what I mean like stuff shedding you know you're shedding you're shedding cells all the time right at some point you'll go down 10 feet into some Pond and pull a little bit sediment out and lay that sediment out and do some analysis and be like you there's skin cells from six mammoths a short face Bear right right whatever it's just it's getting crazy you know it's funny like talking about Indiana Jones like that style like the Archaeology is becoming um increasingly anthropology archaeology uh is becoming like the realm of the scientist like the the the the lab scientist you know what I mean not not the field work like it's so much more it's such a Richard field of inquiry now to analyze stuff we already have than it is to go find new stuff you follow me yeah and when you go on an archaeological dig they're always
they just dig they just dig a fraction there's a knowledge now there's a knowledge now that that tomorrow we're going to know a bunch of [ __ ] we don't know so if we got a 100 squares we'll just dig one now and the impulse used to be just to come in and like destroy the whole site right and wash everything away with hoses and just look for big bones and Big Stone points and you'd come away with thinking that they use Big Stone points to kill big bones because you just washed into the ditch all of that micro evidence all of those small bones all of the plant pollen you just washed everything away because you kind of knew what you were looking for right so we probably make the same mistake now so when you go to a dig they just go like we'll just check this little square and then leave you know this is protocol now knowing that in 10 years 100 years whatever someone's going to have a way better way they'll stick some little stick down there and they'll tell them everything they need to know you know did I tell you about my friend John Reeves did I ever tell you about the bone yard in the last oh yeah no you had him on the show oh yeah yeah he comes on the show every year he was supposed to be the last guest this year but he got pneumonia so he's coming on in February oh that [ __ ] is fascinating man that place is crazy you know it's only six acres is that right yeah six acres thousands and thousands of Bones and what he thinks is it's like some sort of a natural disaster took place and probably asteroid impact there there's a thick layer of carbon thick layer of carbon and uh in the per Frost is all these bodies and they think that it's probably just washed all these bodies into a ditch and that's why there's so many of them there at the perfect spot yeah perfect spot they found animals that weren't even supposed to be in Alaska there yeah it's like you it's like if you had LA tarpits to yourself yes exactly but it's all his property so no one can go there so you know you know they've they've found them in the East River now because it turns out that which museum was it Jamie oh yeah no dumped them they dumped some of the bones into the East River so these people have actually gone down there and
found them in the East River now they found a bunch of bison bones and all kinds of [ __ ] in the East River which is really crazy no it is because exactly where they said that they dumped these things off they found them now it's really wild and so that yeah that that's that's a you should this gu I would like to do that that would be a great episode for your show because this this whole thing is crazy yeah you know and they may or may not have found human remains there oh they can't talk about it I imagine not that [ __ ] gets pretty complicated in hurry man archeological yeah it gets a little yeah we uh we did one on the we did one on the The Lost Rowan o colony and um there's archaeologists working on what happened at the Ross lost Rowan o colony and the minute you um bring up like human remain conversations people it's just like shut the [ __ ] up yeah things get real weird enormously complicated I recently met a guy that does um he's a he's P blowing so he's from one of the P blows in New Mexico and his whole focus is on he does repatriation for his pleo like you know for people not familiar with pbl be like basically you know it's akin to a tribe right he he works on repatriation for his tribe mostly focuses on remains getting back um getting back the remains of his ancestors from all these museums and stuff W you know they want him back yeah and I once and I I had said to him in this conversation I'd said hey why can't there be like a deal to be struck where you'd just say to the museum like okay you keep one gram of that bone for your work keep a gram of the bone and give the rest back to us he said that would never be acceptable to us be like the same way if someone went and dug your uh right you know yeah someone dug your grandpa's bones out of a graveyard and lady you're like hey let me borrow his foot give me my grandpa back like no we're keeping it what really yeah we're do studies on them you know God it's so complicated so that yeah so yeah I think that it would be um finding that and then what complicates a lot of that human remain stuff too especially with stuff that he's talking about that stuff he has is as old as it did is you there's a little bit of a a little bit of question like the groups that are there now peoples that
are there now were they the peop that were there before right you know cuz people move all the time right you just look at like like how the commande moved how the Sue were in the Upper Midwest and in areas of Minnesota and W up you know coming Westward and all this movement um so when you have bones there's always a question of well who you know current typically it goes like this it it's like who was currently on the land but when you're talking about bones that are 10 11 12,000 years old there's like a little bit of a in my mind there's a little bit of a question of like well who do you um how do you know that that that that that person's Direct descendants aren't in New Mexico right you know think about how much time passed like are you giving them like is it the wrong are you giving them to the wrong people you know right that's a very good point yeah because people moved all over the damn place God it's fascinating but with the pbl with the pbl it is not that like with the pbl it is like people that have had occupation on these places for hundreds of years and people just came in and hauled their ancestors out wow to stick them in museums I was at a museum with my kids over Christmas break I was at a museum in Chicago and we go into this exhibit all the walls are all the displays are papered so you can't see and there was a sign just said like we're in a there's a re we're in a repatriation issue so they blocked it all wow you know whatever I don't even know what was behind the paper whatever the display was they're in a they're in a custody battle over their display and blocked it for View and years ago I went to salta um salta to look at those Children of the Corn you know those you ever hear about those children those incing children they left on that mountain top and they kind of freeze dried MH they have three of these children they found but whatever the deal they made with the Inc and the Contemporary Inc and peoples the deal they made is they'll only display one at a time and um when I went it was the it was the child that had been struck by lightning after the fact and it was you know you just walk up and it's in a it's in a case but you're looking at someone's baby you know wow looking at
someone's young child it looked like the kid look like could stand up and walk away really really perfectly preserved even like the feathers are perfect wow yeah not quite stand up and walk away but but I mean like perfect you know perfect um but yeah there's someone probably I haven't followed that situation but someone is probably saying I don't want my you know I don't want my ancestor in your decorating your yeah understandably Muse yeah I mean wow listen man oh here's something that he found look at this this um this had been sawed at one time yeah so the piece that's missing that's he found that like that mm the piece that's missing that's cut right there that was a piece that they made uh to uh to date it oh I got it uh but the top part had been saw huh yeah I forget how old that was no [ __ ] yeah yeah but that that's from John that's from the Boneyard I'm going to introduce you to him he's coming back in February you really need to get to him he's a fascinating cat he's a fun dude too all right Steve uh so your show hunting history history channels that available now is it on now January 28th January 28th okay 10 p.m. Eastern there it is hunting History Steve Rella there it is all right thanks for letting me plug it man oh always a good time talking I appreciate let me come on and plug it there's the MU deer that we shot together I know I like that man for 12 years ago yeah time flies yeah it's your biggest animal to date is that crazy it's kind of crazy that was 12 years ago was it it doesn't seem like it yeah but it was 2012 yeah well again appreciate your generosity especially appreciate let me come on and uh and plug my project means anytime anytime it's always good to talk to you and if you hung out with the dude in Canada in the 70s named John the Baptist let me know yeah let him know I got to put it to rest I can't stop thinking about that guy all right bye everybody [Music] [Applause] the