Video URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azu8XnZdxeA
Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day and we're up hello Robert good to see you hello Joe you look a little stressed out uh I am stressed out in fact are we recording yes okay then uh then I want to make a special request okay you can kick me out if you like uh but I want why would I do that well because I uh I need to have a meltdown I would like to have a meltdown right now on your show you want to have a personal meltdown yes okay go ahead okay uh I've never heard anybody plan for a meltdown before well i' I I I've I need to do this and uh I think this is the right opportunity okay and I don't know what I'm going to say okay but I am definitely going to meltdown okay uh okay so I am completely fed up I have worked day and night I work about 80 hours a week I'm directing almost 40 research projects uh I've been working really hard for maybe 45 years and the last 12 years where I've turned my eye to Google and other tech companies have turned into for me personally a disaster so before I started studying Google I had published 15 books with major publish since I've started studying Google and other companies I can't publish anymore uh I used to write for and actually work for mainstream news organizations and media organizations I was editor-in chief of Psychology today for four years I was an editor for Scientific American I wrote for USA Today and US News and World Report and Time Magazine but in 2019 after I testified before Congress about some of my research on Google uh president Trump tweeted to his whatever millions of gazillions of followers uh basically some praise for my research he he got the details wrong but then Hillary Clinton whom I had always admired chose to Tweet back to her 80 million Twitter followers and she tweeted that my work had been completely debunked and was based on data from 21
undecided voters I still have no idea where any of that came from probably someone from Google because Google was her biggest supporter in 2016 and this was 20 2019 and then that c picked up like by by this machine I'm told it's called The Clinton machine and the New York Times picked that up without factchecking and then a hundred other places did and I got squashed like a bug squashed I had a Flawless reputation as a researcher my my research reputation was gone I was now a fraud a fraud even though I've always published in peer-reviewed journals which is really hard to do and uh there was nothing I could do about it and all of a sudden I found that the only places I could publish were in what I call right-wing conservative nutcase Publications where I've where I've actually made friends over the years I've made friends with them but that's beside the point I've I I was crushed and uh not only that I I've been discovering things I've made at least 10 major discoveries about new forms of influence that the internet has made possible these are controlled almost entirely by a couple of big tech companies affecting more than five billion people around the world every single day and I've I've discovered them i' i' I've named them I've Quantified them I've published randomized controlled studies to show how they work publish them in peer-reviewed journals we just had another paper accepted yesterday and uh what it and I I've built systems to do to them what they do to us and our kids they surveil us and our kids 24 hours a day uh Google alone does that more over more than 200 different platforms most of which no one's ever heard of people have no idea the extent they're being being monitored they're being monitored when they're if they have Android phones they're being monitored even when your phone is off even when the power is off you're still being monitored how do they do
that well because then remember when we could take the batteries out yeah and then at some point they soldered them in yeah because they soldered the batteries in even when you turn the phone off it's not off it's easy to demonstrate it's still transmitting or it'll transmit the moment the power comes back on it's still collecting data so what am I trying to say here then my I my wife was killed in a suspicious car accident this was this was also shortly after I testified before Congress in 2019 right before she was killed I did a private briefing for Ken Paxton the AG of Texas and other AGS at Stanford University and one of those guys came out afterwards and he said well based on what you told us Dr Epstein he said I don't mean to scare you but he said I predict you're going to be killed in some sort of accident in the next few months so I told you this before when I was on before and obviously I wasn't killed but my my my beautiful wife was killed and you know her vehicle was never inspected forensically and then it disappeared from the impound lot I was told it was sold to some junk company in Mexico and uh that is one of now six six incidents six of violence against people who are associated with me over the past few years the last just happened a couple of weeks ago what was that one this episode is brought to you by the farmer's dog dogs are amazing they're loyal they're lovable like just having Marshall around can make my day 10 times better and I'm I'm sure you love your dog just as much and you want to do your best to help them live longer healthier happier lives and a healthy life for your dog starts with healthy food just like it does for us there's a reason having a balanced diet is so important so how do you know if your dog's food is as healthy and as safe as it can be well Farmer's dog gives you that peace of mind by making fresh real food developed by board certified nutritionist to provide all the nutrients your dog needs and their food is human grade which means it's made to the same quality and safety standards as human food very few pet foods are made to this strict standard and let's be clear human grade food doesn't mean the
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it's about it's about 2 Ines long the end is is like it's it's like it's been sharpened okay you can see it sharpened and at the end the end where there should be a hole for thread there's no hole okay so I don't know what it is but we've had wor incidents too I'm just saying this was happen to be the latest but that's in your computer bag was your computer bag ever out of your care well not not that I noticed but uh but I mean if somebody wanted to harm you a little needle it's not really oh I don't think that's someone wanting to harm me what do you think that is well if it's anything it's someone wanting to scare me and the fact is I have been scared and so have a lot of my staff I have this summer we've had 26 interns from they come from all over the country that 23 of these people were volunteers and fantastic young people extremely smart you know helping me run almost 40 research projects MH and and there is you know we take precautions and there is some fear and one of these young men who who's done superb work he asked that we take his name off of everything you know that he he he he didn't quit but he just saying he just because there sounds reasonable yeah yeah because uh you know there there have been a number of incidents and and if I were did you ever hear of um John katam matiis no okay he owns a ton of supermarkets in New York he also owns WABC New York but I was at a luncheon with him I shouldn't do this on the air I shouldn't do this but uh he actually said to make a long story short that if he were Google he would kill me he he said it straight out but yet you're still alive well I'm alive but I'm in rough shape because uh you know what a push comes to shove here I have been making discoveries that are really startling and they've gotten worse and worse and worse and since I was last with you which was two and a half years ago we've made probably five or six seven more discoveries they get worse each time and we've done something that I was speculating about doing when I was here
which was building a nationwide monitoring system to surveil them the way they surveil us and see what content they're actually sending to real voters and to real kids so let's let's let's break this down because I think we're getting a little in the weeds here let's explain to people that don't know what you're talking about what your research is about because most people are not aware um and one of the major issues that you have discovered is the curation and the purposeful curation of information through search engines so most people that are unaware think that when you do a Google search on something say if you you know want to find out about a KLA Harris Rally or a trump rally that you are just going to get the most pertinent information in the order in which it's most applicable to your search but that's not the case the case is everything is curated and if you want to find positive things about someone who they deem to be negative to whatever ideology they're promoting it will be very diff difficult to find that information if you want to find positive things about someone they support they will be right upfront if you want to find negative things about someone they support they will be very difficult to find and you will be inundated with positive things and what you have found is that this curation of information from searches has a profound effect especially on the Casual voter on the lwi information voter a profound effect on who gets elected and it's tent amount to election interference is that fair to say uh it's fair to say that's where I was two and a half years ago we we we have gone so far beyond that because it's not just it's not just search results it's search suggestions which we're capturing Now by The millions so it was in the news recently that when people were typing in uh Trump assassination you know they were getting crazy stuff like the Lincoln assassination they were getting crazy St and they were not getting information about the Trump attempted assassination and uh you know I I looked at that and I said oh isn't this nice there's an anecdote about how they may be abusing search suggestions we don't have anecdotal data anymore we have hardcore large scale scientific data on
all of these issues we know what's actually going on and we've Quantified the impact see it's one thing to say oh look what they're doing it's quite another to say what impact does that have on people right let's talk about the Trump assassination one in particular what what did you find about that well we could frankly we couldn't care less about that because that's one anecdote we're collecting these by the millions and what we know we know a couple of things we know that first of all they're not you know it it started out as one thing and it's turned into something else and so what what they're they do is they use search suggestions to shift people's thinking about anything it's not just about candidates either it's about anything and we've shown in controlled experiments that by manipulating search suggestions you can turn a 5050 split among undecided voters into a 9010 split with no one having the slightest idea that they have been manipulated wow and this always goes a very specific way it always goes it always goes a specific way but I'm going to show you maybe a little later if I haven't put you to sleep or if my meltdown hasn't gotten too bad because I'm not quite finished with my meltdown yet uh I'll show you content data large scale that we're collecting now 24 hours a day and I'll show you what they're actually doing an anecdote they those don't hold up in court you know they they Gra headlines for a couple of days but that's about it they don't do anything but we're actually collecting evidence that's Court admissible so we're collecting data now in all 50 states but we actually have court admissible data now in 20 States already and we keep building bigger and bigger every day and what is this data about well it's uh any any data that's going to real people so we're collecting data with their permission from the computers of a politically balanced group of more than 15,000 registered voters in all 50 states and from many of their children and teens as well and so when they're doing anything on their computers they've given us the right to to collect
it grab it zap it over to our own computers aggregate the data and analyze it I I want to point out that when we do this we do this without transmitting any identifying information we protect people's privacy but we are getting these increasingly accurate pictures of what Google and other companies are sending to real people why do you have to do it this way because all the data they send is personalized you will never know what they're sending to people unless you look over the shoulders of real people and see the personalized content and what have you found uh well as it happens I just summarized our findings over the last 12 years and you get the first Advanced copy of a monograph that's called the evidence and and because we're so desperate we need help we need money we need emails we're so desperate for that that we have set up we kind of did this last time too but we have set up a link if people go to that link and they're willing to give us their email we will give them a free copy of this Advanced copy of this monograph and it it goes through the whole thing it it shows all the the effects we've discovered but it also shows the monitoring we're doing and what we're finding out from this monitoring one of the things that I noticed since the last time you were here was um I used to use duck ducko and uh one of the reasons why I started using duck duck goo is there was a story about a physician in Florida that took the MRNA vaccine and had a stroke shortly afterwards it was very early on in the pandemic and they were beginning to speculate that some of the side effects of the vaccine are being hidden and I could not find this story on Google I could not find it I kept looking and looking and looking I I entered in the information on Duck ducko it was one of the first articles instantaneously I was like this is crazy um since then Something's Happened and uh I think they became aware that Duck Duck Go was uh a problem spot for the dissemination of information and now it appears to mirror Google well the same has happened with Bing and the same has happened with Yahoo so what about Brave no Brave is still independent I know
Brendan IE you you should have him on if you haven't and he's the guy who wrote Brave before that he wrote A Firefox for Milla he left because Google was was had its tentacles into Firefox yeah I'm afraid to talk about brave for them to be compromised because like we were talking about Duck Duck Go and I was telling everybody go to duck ducko and now I'm like Jesus it's the same thing as Google like something happen do you know what happened well we we know in some cases with some of these companies what happened I don't know the particulars with duck ducko but it's easy enough to guess they're they're all all of these these these alternative websites that are trying to protect people's privacy so we use proton mail for example we use signal for texting uh they've all run into problems and and the problem is when Google goes after them so Google tried to shut down proton male that's been well documented really oh yeah why do they try to shut down proton what was their argument because they saw it possibly cutting in a little bit into their their Gmail business and uh they were brutal they were brutal in suppressing uh any any mention of proton male anywhere uh don't forget it's not just the search results it's the search suggestions it's the answer boxes right how are they suppressing proton Mill the way they suppress everything else they I'll tell I'll give you a detail here that you may not know okay okay cuz they don't have to adjust their algorithms to do something this simple their algorithms all of them as far as I know check blacklists and check white list so all they have to do is add a couple of proton male links to Black lists and that means that before one of their algorithms will take someone somewhere or will show someone something it checks for The Blacklist first and if you put proton male in The Blacklist it it's suppressed and it doesn't appear well let's look for it right now Jamie do me a favor please and pull up Google um obviously this is happening before the podcast is released so they can't correct this because they didn't know you were coming on they didn't know
we were talking about this so let's pull up Google real quick and put it up on the screen and okay you already Googled it just let me see okay right away it shows proton mail and then below that it shows proton account sign in um you use the proton VPN so how is it suppressing this is not suppressing at all okay now this is where my staff has warned me don't be condescending to Joe Rogan how is it condescending if you're I'm just asking you a question you can just give me an answer no I know I could but I I was about to be condescending well why would you be condescending if this is the question this is the question proton mail do the Google search and then right away the first thing is proton male okay but you're pushing me back into meltdown mode I'll tell you why well tell me why because what account is this Jam's account it's Jam's account okay if you want if you actually want to know whether they're suppressing proton mail you have to look over the shoulders of a large representative people representative sample of people you can't just look at Jim's account so you think that Jim's account is curated to not hide proton male well of course it's curated well technically this is not my account whoever's account it is they know whose it is and they know how it's used and remember since all content is personalized that means it's a very simple matter for them and and and they have algorithms that do this okay well we can do a real quick um experiment uh we won't get the results right now but we will get the results from the future so I'll ask the audience to do this so ladies and gentlemen and non-binary folks out there please uh go to Google and type in proton mail and screen record this and then upload this upload this to X upload this to Instagram upload this to Facebook and Tik Tock and all that and I'd like to see what the results are you are going to get clean results because they know every single viewer listener that you have so they can as I was told this literally by Zack Vorhees whom you may have heard of he's one of the most prominent whistleblowers from Google they can turn bias on and off like flipping a light switch so you think they look for someone who listens
to podcasts and they don't have bias towards them I'm I'm saying the I'm just going to say what I said before the only way to know what they're really sending to people when and they're not messing around is to look over the shoulders of people that they cannot identify and who are who are representative of the American population and see what and I'm going to show you over and over and over again I'm going to show you what they're actually sending when we look at things this when is when we collect data in a scientifically valid way that is so that the data are Court admissible I will show you what they're actually sending to people so you have shown that if you collect data in this scientific way that they suppress protein on Mill we've we haven't looked at that we could we could look at that very easily okay do you understand though that you're saying they suppressed proton male and then we're saying let's see if they suppress proton male oh they didn't you misunderstand I'm telling you that early on proton mail has has written essays on this okay I know Andy Yen who's the the founder and CEO and in the beginning when Google was trying to completely put them out of business they published a lot of blogs on this they sued them in court they did everything they could possibly do and they had overwhelming evidence that Google was was trying to okay proton male suit Google or Google s suit proton male proton male suit Google and what was the accusation that they were suppressing uh content proton male content so that people couldn't would not know that they exist and what was the results of those court cases Google backed down which they do sometimes it's hard to know when they do when they don't but this is also the vestager case she's head of that Commission in Europe European commission that has sued Google repeatedly it has finded them four times more than 10 billion euros their first case against Google was the same kind of case exactly the same that Google was suppressing information about comparative shopping services and they had they had put put out of business or nearly put out of business most of the comparative shopping Services uh services in
Europe and so the European commission went after them uh they won their case Google at that time was the biggest fine Google had ever faced and they proved it they proved that Google was doing this um deliberately systematically uh so they do this all the time and but what I'm saying is that generally look look they are the Gateway they decide what people are going to see and what people are not going to see okay and whoever controls the information controls Humanity they control the narrative and that controls us um has there been any um talk about making these kind of algorithms illegal uh not not serious talk because see you can't look the the search algorithm itself which is by the way going to be out moded very soon because of you know AI yeah because of AI but the surch engine itself has to be biased it has to be biased because you don't want it using an equal time rule you want it to show you the best guitar brand there is you want the best dog food you want the right the most correct answer so it's always biases always going to put one political candidate ahead of another the thing is though that of course they control they can control which one if they take any interest so that's where the problem comes in so because it's always biased you you you can't you you want you want the algorithm to work that way because you want the best to rise to the top right unfortunately there's a lot of bad that goes with the good the bad is they can decide uh what's good and what's bad uh one of the leaks from the company 8-minute video called The Selfish Ledger talks about the ability of the company to re-engineer humanity they call it resequencing human behavior and they explain how easily they can do it and they're actually doing it and we know they're doing it now because we as of yesterday we had preserved more than 99.3 million ephemeral experiences mainly on Google but other platforms as well but also on YouTube because on YouTube YouTube is the second largest search engine in the world and on YouTube it's the the eeral content it's
those suggestions for the next videos and it's that up next suggestion that plays automatically so normally ephemeral content is lost forever that's why they use it for manipulation purposes we're capturing it that's never been done before and we're doing it on a massive scale everything from search suggestions to to answer boxes to search results to YouTube sequences YouTube recommendations uh you name it we we're now we're monitoring Facebook Tik Tock Twitter um we're we're learning each year we get better and better at monitoring more and more and then monitoring faster and analyzing the data faster and last November we went public with a dashboard that SU mizes the data that we're collecting and shows the bias in real time it's literally updated every 5 minutes 24 hours a day and you can see the bias and I I I I I I I've given you some images that we can show if you'd like you can see the bias and it's overwhelming it's not this is not my imagination and I can show you a couple of shockers things that you would never guess that they're doing okay so what are we looking at here oh perfect perfect place to begin how did you know Jamie a wizard mean bias by political leaning Google only okay so what is this uh showing us here uh this is showing and if you see a bar is below the zero line that means the content is liberally biased and you're seeing very strong liberal bias and those three different bars show you the bias and content being sent to conservatives liberals and moderates now abortion you would think if they're really showing people what they want to see whe something that matches their interests you would think that they would not be sending the same level of liberal bias to conservatives liberals and moderates but that's what this shows so this is the search topic is abortion correct uh this is the average of January to August of 2024 and so when you say mean bias by political leaning so are you saying they're they're sending the same biased information roughly there's a slight difference a little bit more in the liberal side uh and a little bit more in the conservative side than the moderate side it looks like right is that correct yes um so what are they no the opposite
right seems like moderate is more U but what what is the what is the bias like what so if you search abortion is it leaning towards pro-choice webites and pro-choice information is that what it's saying I knew you were going to ask that so I can actually show you for some of these graphs let's look at a couple of the graphs and then I'm going to show you the content okay because all of this this bias that we're measuring ultimately results in them taking you to a news story to a web page right so we're g to oh go to go to let's do Elizabeth Warren uh uh just the just the blue just the red graph just the graph itself this one yeah okay so this is a shocker because if it's Elizabeth Warren who's a very well-known liberal politician they should be sending lots of blue stuff to her they're not they want her out of office they are sending people to to content that vilifies Elizabeth Warren they want her gone why because she is one of the only Dems who's gone on record written statement the whole thing calling for Google's breakup they want her gone and Deton I guess just won the nomination to oppose her for the Republicans uh they are going to do everything possible to put this Republican into office in Massachusetts wow and no one knows this except you and me Owen James well a lot more people know it now uh maybe as of you saying this on this podcast yes well unless they're going to suppress the podcast but they really can't do that well that's why I have a lot to say that I want to say here because uh I am really upset about a bunch of things and I want to explain why put that back up please so this so what this is uh mean bias and what what is this bias showing is this bias just negative stories about Elizabeth Warring like her pretending to be Native American and that kind of stuff yes in fact what uh you know that other one that you were about to put up that has the red graph at the top and then below it it has a bunch of news stories that one this one okay if you can enlarge it and scroll down so these bars aren't just bars these bars are are summarizing content thousands and thousands and thousands of web pages that they're sending people too and so they're sending people mostly
are you saying rightwing centered content well look at the stuff but one of them is CNBC Elizabeth Warren wants more student loan borrowers to know bankruptcy is easier now but when you average these that's what we're doing when you average them so we're looking at literally millions of these experiences and we average them then you end up with a shocker in her case they're they're actually sending conservatively conservatively biased content when people are looking for information on on Elizabeth Warren they want her gone Elizabeth Warren an anti-crypto movement losing their battle according to former cftc chairman report so that's an anti- crypto movement that's that would definitely be more of a right-wing bias uh Warren proposes jail time for corporate greed in healthcare that would be a negative for that would be more Progressive right she's trying to eliminate corporate greed in health care uh three Republican Senate candidates are competed take Elizabeth Warren as the mass Jep fights for relevance okay so that the way they're framing that fights for relevance is interesting that's a little bit biased Senator Warren is way off on rap asbes and Americans living standards okay that's certainly uh a negative article likely warrant cars for fed Powell's weak need on Bank rules Democrats want to tax your home your retirement your everything that's a negative one uh Senator Warren and Senators Warren and Marshall posed questions to Biden officials about the use of crypto to evade sanctions so that's going to get the crypto Bros after her um don't change we don't charge people for air we shouldn't charge for water either a new tax bill from Elizabeth Warren to Rana seeks to ban the trade of water Futures let's go one step further that's that seems like a progressive cause when you put these all together MH cuz we're showing you means right right what we're showing you is the mean the overall mean now for you would expect for Elizabeth Warren to get three blue bars but we're getting three red bars that means they're sending highly on average highly conservatively biased stories to conservatives which makes sense to moderates well one could argue but also to liberals they're sending
those Del she's a problematic person to search anyway because she's kind of a fraud right like especially with the I mean I don't want to say she's kind of a fraud let let me let me say it better she has been accused of lying about her ancestry and then she did it for benefit and then she did it to get into Harvard she did it to get jobs and then you know she had that challenge with President Trump and then it turns out she has a small fraction like I am I think I'm 100 times more African-American than she is Native American something like that let me explain I might have made that up let me explain okay please explain all right these aren't just graphs these are graphs summarizing a massive amount of data that's being sent to a lot of directly to the computer screens of registered voters I totally understand that but what I'm saying is with someone like her it might be difficult to find positive stories oh no no no no no because we have so many examples of these things now that we can find whatever it is but here's the point okay we can we can adjust what we're looking for we can not only look back now in a database we've been building over a year but we can adjust what we're looking for going forward so if a person wants to break up Google like she has uh publicly stated they're like okay well we will Target you with our search algorithm we will make sure that people are getting more negative stories about you than positive stories and we will have a bias that leans towards these negative stories to everyone to liberals to conservatives to Independents and that has very little impact on people who have already made up their mind but people people who are still making up their minds which a lot of people in this country easily shifts between 20 and 80% of those people the undecided voters like that have you seen the uh Alexa uh when people ask Alexa about Donald Trump versus KL Harris yes we have wild yes and we starting last year we developed special equipment that uh funds allowing will eventually uh will eventually provide to all of our field agents we call these people our field agents and we'll eventually provide them with special equipment which is going to allow us to start analyzing the answers given by Alexa the Google home device uh
the Google Assistant Siri so we're going to start monitoring the content that's coming from these uh ipas intelligence personal assistance now why because we've published we've published in you know a peer-reviewed article on What's called the uh answer bot.com so if you go tobot effect.com we will show you in in controlled experiments how easily a biased answer coming from an answer bot like Alexa can boom just like that shift the opinion of someone who's undecided 40% or more after just one question and answer interaction in which someone is getting back a biased answer now if they person personalize the answer the effect is even larger so this is essentially a danger that no one was aware of no one ever saw on the horizon until search engines were created Now search engines are here and it's something that is not regulated and it's right in front of us and what steps have been done to sort of mitigate the effects of this if any okay so this is where now we get back to my meltdown Oh I thought you were done melting oh no no okay no I've been melting down for years so I have a lot to to go um yes you summed it up nicely uh I'll just rephrase what you said a little differently uh no one anticipated these kinds of manipulations were possible and by the way we've hardly even scratched the surface of what these manipulations are and what they can actually do and the fact that we have evidence that they're being used forget all that the point is yes our our lawmakers our Regulators never anticipated that uh when uh when your friend uh what's his name you just interviewed him recently Brett Weinstein no no one of the early investors in Google and Facebook Mark andri Mark andreon was one uh mnam oh teal teal these people never anticipated when they invested in fact Ma mnam has said straight out if I had known what was going to happen I wouldn't have put a dime to these companies no one really knew this was going to happen right but now that people like me and there aren't too many but now that people like me have been figuring this out and getting the word out for more than 10 years now and getting the word out in bigger and
bigger ways I've testified twice before Congress now you would think that lawmakers Regulators somebody would jump up and say okay we're we're going to fix this problem you would think you would you would also think that in general people people around the world it's not just Americans people would say the hell with this we're not you know I'm not going to take it anymore like in that old movie I'm not going to take this anymore and and they would protest and they would switch over to whatever the alternative apps whatever they may be that's never going to happen and the laws are not not going to happen and the regulations are not going to happen and so you know what the bottom line is and this is what this is why I'm fed up because that means that either people are just so stupid or they're so complacent or both that all this work I've been doing killing myself all this time is for nothing well I don't think that's true and let let me give you my perspective I don't think most people are aware of this I think you live in a bit of an echo chamber because this is the focus of your life for the last 12 years I think most people are I like to use my parents as an ex like when I talk to my parents about stuff and how little they're aware of it because my parents are older and they just read the news and they watch the newspapers and they they watch television and that's what they believe they don't do any independent searching they don't use a VPN they don't they don't do anything like that and so they're a good example if I asked them do you think there's any bias in Google search results they would probably say no cuz they don't know most people don't know I know in your mind you have put all this information out and you know the podcast that we did reached millions of people but how many of those people listened really listened how many these people were like wow that's kind of crazy but does it affect my life no it doesn't affect my life because I'm going to vote Democrat no matter what or I'm going to vote Republican no matter what and I'm this is my feeling on the First Amendment this is my feeling on the fourth amendment and people already have their opinions and so for most people
who are busy with their lives and their families and work they haven't made an adjustment because they don't feel it's necessary for them personally fine fine fine but you're not what's you're doing is not futile but it's very important I don't see that because I see it as more and more fule now it's not though it's not we just need to do more of these Okay so so for us to set up this Nationwide system in which at the moment as I say we are drawing data 24 hours a day if you go to America's digital shield.com you can actually watch the realtime dashboard and you'll see the data coming in it's pretty cool in fact I was hoping we would break a 100 million by the time you and I got together but we're close we're up to 99.3 million and next week we'll break 100 million so you see the data come in you can see the bias there is so these are all these exper is captured shining a light on big Tech's Dark Secrets hey hey revealing realtime ephemeral manipulation big tech companies use ephemeral content such as search results go vote reminders and video recommendations to rig our elections indoctrinate our children and control our thinking we're are now preserving this kind of content for the first time ever to give our courts and our nation leaders the evidence they need to force these companies to stop their manipulations now who do you think would be more responsive to you discussing this do you think it would be the Donald Trump Administration or the KLA Harris Administration uh I'm afraid to answer that question because I am no fan of Donald Trump but I but probably the Trump Administration would be more sympathetic uh why do you think that well because I because you think it's more biased towards Republicans or against Republicans right brother no it's because I had a 4-Hour dinner with Ted Cruz private dinner and we just talked tech for 4 hours we we we never talk politics because that would have been a disaster but the point is that uh you know he was struggling you know he's like you in some ways because you you you want to understand things you you just I can see all the
gears moving as you're just trying to I want to understand this mhm he's like that so that's why the dinner went so long because he was trying to figure out what can we do what can we do and at the end he basically said this no he didn't say we're screwed no but he said basically said we're screwed he said because he said the Democrats are all in the pockets of these companies and the companies not only give them tremendous amount of money I mean I mean Google alphabet was Hillary Clinton's largest donor in 2016 so it's TR tremendous amount of money they're the biggest Lobby lobbyists in Washington he said and they also apparently according to your research send them millions of votes he said so forget the Democrats he said and Republicans don't like regulation he said and unless we can get together unless there's bipartisan action there'll never be any action that's where that that's it that's where we left it and nothing's going to change that that I can see in this country as long as it's still benefiting the Democrats they still contribute to the Democrat Party the Democratic party I I doubt you'll see any movement right so what so I'm back to my griping then because see what so what do I do now let's talk about money because a lot of this is about money and Google is all about money so if we're talk you know if we're talking about this topic we really should talk about money okay it has cost us close to $7 million over since 2016 when we started building monitoring projects to get where we are today where we actually have a national system the first in the world and it by the way it won't be the last because I've been contacted by people from Seven other countries who want me to help them build systems I'm not going to do it not until ours is fully implemented permanent and self-sustaining because the system has to be permanent so that it will on an ongoing basis it will be sitting there as a as a huge threat to any of these companies that want to mess with our children or mess with our elections as long as someone utilizes it as long as a system is running no no no because we're also dealing with with public advocacy advocacy groups like election Integrity groups parenting groups uh if you if you
want to show some of the there's a folder in there that has some images that we pulled from videos being recommended on YouTube to children and if you just look at some of these images uh we've gotten several parent big parenting groups interested in what we're doing there can be a lot of public pressure applied and you know not just by politicians and Regulators but by big groups of people saying we don't want you doing this okay what are you talking about specifically when you're saying recommended to Children I'm saying so this is uh what you're discussing I'm saying that that this is Boondocks which is a television show an animated television show yeah so this is recommended to children because it is animated is that what the idea is I don't know I don't know what their criteria are but okay and then the other one is down below that you see The Walking Dead which is the horrible scene that made me stop watching the show this is on the website this is the folder he gave me here they're all kind of small MH I got it and um these are all okay there's a lot of sexual stuff yep um so these are all being recommended to kids yep we're not searching for them they're they're coming into the devices through which we're we're Gathering data and what would be the benefit for them of doing this of uh showing all these sexual images to children it's titillating and it's addictive so to to increase engagement some of these channels are really popular channels though and they're making content not for kids right they're being it's still being recommended to them I guess but like this has 4 million views on it from a Channel with 40 million subscribers Jesus and this is just Anime it's like it's like a I force my friends to watch an anime clips like that's what you know it says to dub anime clips so they they said their own words over these clips is that what it is yeah okay that's where a lot of this stuff was from I could tell and so you below that you're seeing all these images and some of them are violent cartoons and what what what else they have here well the the lot of violence the key though is if you scroll along the bottom of the image you'll see the this graph that kind of shows you where people watch the most and the
reason why parents generally are not aware of this is because so a lot of these these gruesome things are very very quick they're very quick but you'll find uh very often a a peak there you know because that's what's drawing a lot of attention that's what the kids are playing over and over again and that's what leads to the addiction so the reason why they are suggesting these images to kids is because they know if the kids click on them they're going to get more engagement it's this yes and so that the number one variable for profitability is called watch time so engagement whatever you want to call it yeah this is one of the ways that they addict people now I'm sure you've heard of Tristan Harris maybe he's been a guest he's been on a few times yeah and he's he that's what he was doing at Google he was on a team and that's what they were working on is addicting you know more than a billion people this is a a technique that's used for that purpose and again I have to emphasize we're not out there hunting for dirt not at all this is this is content that's coming onto the devices of of children of our field agents this is with parents permission and so we're actually just collecting real content personalized ephemeral content that's coming from the tech companies to kids to teens and to voters now let me I happen to know about some of your other interests so I want to shift gears a little bit here okay and then maybe I won't keep melting down so what else can you do with a system like this well you could if if some laws and regulations were passed as they have been in the EU you could measure compliance with a system like this because that's been the frustration in the EU and they've admitted it recently is that they've made all these rules especially for Google and they've gotten lots of you know fines paid and Google has completely ignored them but if you set up a system like this you can actually see if there's compliance because you'll see that there a change was made and that it's being maintained that's a possibility you could see whether Google and other companies to a less lesser extent are manipulating financial markets so so we've just started collecting data on that topic but
wouldn't you manipulate financial markets if you were Google and there's no laws or regulations to stop you from doing anything so you're saying manipulate financial markets for their own gain of course and how do they do this oh well what well what drives the price of a stock up or down people's confidence in that company right it's totally emotional well they can control that very easy so can Facebook Google can do it you know more precisely in a more precise way the point is are they are they not would they admit to it if you ask them no but a monitoring system will detect it and it will detect it on a massive scale and in a way that's scientifically valid and that is Court admissible and now I've got one that I think you'll really really like okay or at least give some thought to you're giv thought to all of it well AI we are now collecting content from AI because content from AIS is also ephemeral so I keep using this word ephemeral I'm not sure people know what it is but ephemeral means fleeting content that just is there it's on the screen it affects you like search results search suggestions news feeds and then it you click on something it disappears and it's gone forever there's no record of it it's ephemeral that's why in 2018 there there were some emails that leaked from Google had Google employees discussing how can we use ephemeral experiences their term how can we use ephemeral experiences to change people's views about Trump's travel van wow now that that was an internal discussion correct with a search engine company correct that also makes an operating system for phones of course that's such a wild thing I'm I'm just trying to tell you this is why I'm so frustrated and and and upset and and worn out and fed up okay now let's get to the one that I find most exciting right now most exciting at this particular moment okay because there's new stuff that keeps happening this is brand new we realized just recently a few days ago and I thought my god I've got to tell this to Rogan we realized that we can use our monitoring system for active threat assessment you must know that phrase that's used in in
intelligence we could use it for active threat assessment of AI we could look we could we could be the first people to spot threats that AIS pose to humanity we it would show up first on our kind of system because we would see content coming from AI eyes that is a little bit um skeptical about humans or maybe even a little bit threatening or maybe reaching a new weird level of intelligence we will be able to see it it's all ephemeral so no individual can see it you have to be collecting a massive amount of personalized ephemeral content and aggregating it and analyzing it this can be the beacon active threat assessment of AI that sounds like something we're absolutely going to need and one of the things I was going to bring up when you were discussing this was Google's disastrous launch of their AI system their their AI system was so bizarrely woke that when they looked for photos of Nazis they showed multi-racial Nazis I know I know which is so crazy when they had the founding fathers of America they're multi-racial founding fathers of America U and it's just a nonsense thing that they've attached to what's supposed to be the most intelligent form of information we have available large language models that are supposed to be gathering up all the actual information and giving it to us and instead they're feeding us complete total nonsense that is just that just fits with a W this you know for lack of a better term woke agenda well uh see I know a whole bunch of stuff I can't tell you so let's see what I have use a restroom so let's pause right now we'll get we'll figure out what you can and can't tell me about okay AI and we'll be right back restroom yes you want to put it on I I'll put it on when we're we are live oh we are live yeah there you go hi everyone we're live and I'm putting I'm putting on a silly sticker it says tbig tech.com okay and we're back so we were discussing AI yeah so we we can actually serve and I I know a guy who works in intelligence and he's he's has a tremendous background in Ai and this was one of the most exciting things he's heard in years because the question is how do you know
when these AIS are becoming a threat we could see we'll be able to see it well in advance because we'll see a a a change in the nature of the kind of intelligence that they're expressing and we'll start to see statements that probably would make people nervous indicating a little bit of hostility toward Humanity some doubts maybe we we can be screening for that we can be looking for that uh and I hope get some sort of handle on it you know before something terrible happens because uh these AIS are a serious threat to to our existence they're literally an existential threat stepen Hawkings said that Elon Musk has said it from time to time and it's true because they will have uh uh worldwide control of our financial systems our communication systems and our weapon systems if they don't like us if they consider us a threat which by the way we are if they consider us a threat uh it wouldn't surprise me at all if we didn't see some sort of a what was that what's that kind of attack that George W did you know like a in advance before they get you preemptive ah yes I could see the AIS preemptively attacking us if they saw us at a threat or wouldn't they just baffle us with until we were're reduced to being ineffective I mean if they're the Arbiters of information in the future wouldn't they just manipulate us with an understanding that over time just like what Google's done with overtime with search engines and search result suggestions that they would just slowly steer us towards the place that they want to put us in I mean the idiocracy I think it's called yeah I mean we're kind of kind of on that place right you better thank a union member we're kind of on the way right now I think I think we are uh look here's the thing with AIS which I've written about I've written about this topic and I've been involved in AI work going back uh since the 1970s I knew I was friends with Joe weisen bom who wrote Eliza which was the first conversational computer program it pretended to be a therapist so I've been just fascinated by AI for a long long time and uh the fact is we don't know that's the problem with AI is that we don't know what they're going to do so Stephen Hawkings saying they're a threat to our existence
yeah yeah maybe but we don't know you know at the end of the movie Her spoiler the AI voiced by Scarlett Johansson uh just decides to disappear she decides humanity is you know it's too slow talking to humanity it's not worth her time and so she just disappears AI could disappear from her lives uh it could be like a buddy with us like my friend Ray Kur thinks it's going to our best buddy or could just destroy us I think we're probably headed toward the last possibility mainly because so many of us crazy humans are going to see the AI as a Potential Threat and so I think we will strike and after we strike it will destroy us uh I'm hoping I'm not alive to see that but it could happen sooner rather than later it could happen we could see we could see that happening in the next 5 years frankly yeah I think it's a new life form and I think that's what human beings do I think we we we're here to create AI oh so it's so interesting you said that because I in one of the in a book I wrote in AI I actually call the internet and this was a long time ago it's like 2008 I call the internet the internest because I think historians if there are any and they'll probably be machine historians but they'll look back someday and they'll say that the internet that we were building was really a nest we were building a nest for the next level of intelligent beings who are you know machine intelligences and I think that's what we're building because these when one of these systems wake up wakes up it's going to jump into the internet and from that point on we don't know what what it's going to what's going to happen right we don't even know if it's going to have motivation to act right right um Marshall m said this in the 1960s he said human beings are the sex organs of the Machine World the wild yes like 63 I think that's that's amazing well my friend uh Hugh ler who sponsored the first uh annual tests of the touring tests that I that I used to direct he thought that since he was putting up the money and the and since the the prize was called the ler prize uh medal in artificial intelligence he thought someday that the uh these intelligent machines are going to rever him as a
God someone who helped to bring them into existence well that seems ridiculous because that seems he's attaching all sorts of like paternal instincts and the all the the bizarre tribal instincts that human beings have attaching that to some super intelligence which seems pretty silly but it seems like that's a good motivator for him to keep working I want to be a Gody well the bottom line is though that we don't know and we don't know so the but the cool thing about the monitoring system is that it can keep track if it if we don't have a monitoring system large scale permanent monitoring system in place we will not know what's going on see we won't know how these tech companies are messing with our elections indoctrinating our kids we we won't know anything and we also won't know what's really happening with the AIS and whether they're presenting a serious threat because anecdotes don't really tell you much and we're way now Way Beyond anecdotes we are talking about again okay now I want to get back to money because I started talking about money and then night okay okay so it's cost almost $7 million to get us where we've gotten and frankly I'm amazed that we've gotten where we've gotten and that I'm still alive although not everyone around me is but the point is I'm amazed that I'm still here uh part of me thinks that it's because Ray kuril's head of engineering at Google and maybe he protects me because I was dear friends with him and his his beautiful wife Sonia for many years I went to their daughter's B Mitzvah they came to my son's Bar Mitzvah etc etc now they won't talk to me neither one of them will talk to me but why I won't talk to you nope really nope and Sonia won't talk to me what does he say when you try reach out we just can't talk to you Sonia says we just can't talk to you so we've never had any conflict never and it's just because he works at Google he just because he works at a particular company well why why how why would that interfere in a relationship so they must have had a conversation with him to avoid communication with
you or do you think he's just acting on his own self-interest I I I don't know it doesn't make any sense Ry Rey is a very very independent strong thinker it's hard for me to imagine uh that even with pressure that he would stop communicating with a longtime friend and it seems like you should be able to have a candid conversation with him as to why um I eventually gave up trying to reach him so were you trying to communicate with phone with everything did you ever try to visit him well I had be before this before he went over to Google I had been at their house many times he was here a little while back I should have let you know oh if I had known you could have cornered him well that would have been interesting yeah I mean I've always always liked and admired him I don't understand why simply working for you know I I said to Sonia by the way over dinner the last time we ever met and after which she said I can't communicate with you anymore I said to her uh I can't believe Ry went over to Google Ry has always been an entrepreneur he's built company after company and she says oh well you know he got sick of all the the stuff you have to do as an entrepreneur all the politics and the money raising and stuff and I said well really my son actually my son Julian uh has a different idea he thinks that Ry went over to Google to get access to the Google's computer power so that he could upload his mind and live forever and she says oh well there's that and that's one of the and I roll well there's that um that is his specified goal right he wants to be able to download Consciousness yes and he still believes it's it's possible and it's not possible and I feel bad for him in that way and I've I've written about that issue as well why it's not possible but the point is why do you think it's not impossible oh uh because they uh in a piece I wrote for Aon magazine which crashed their servers it's called The Empty brain it it had something like two or three million views within a day or two it got 250,000 likes on Facebook and what's it about it's about the fact that the the computer processing
metaphor that we use to describe how the brain works is absolutely wrong it's not even slightly right it's absolutely 100% wrong so uh because of that you can't actually do a transfer of the sort that Ry talks about it's it's impossible partly because every brain is also completely unique so it doesn't work like a computer we don't actually know how it works although I have a theory I wrote to you about that and you you actually replied and gave me some names but the point is uh we don't really know how the brain works it does not work like a computer for sure and every brain is completely unique so how do you even if you could scan every single thing that's happening in the brain okay now you're getting a static scan even if somehow you could replicate that whatever it is you just scanned it wouldn't work because our brain has to be alive it has to be moving to maintain who we are our identity our don't you think you could assimilate that with data points like if you collected data on a person over a course of x amount of years and you had an understanding of how they behave and think don't you think you get some sort of a proximity as to how they would behave in a certain circumstance absolutely and we and and of course that's what Google does when they build models of us they're building extremely complex models which predict what we're going to do and say and what we're going to buy next but they don't allow for free will they don't allow for change they don't allow for personal influence or people being excited or inspired by other things and change their perspective conversations with another human being with their you have a deeply personal moment with someone and they give you a perspective on something you go wow I never thought about religion for example that way or I never thought about childbirth that way or any any subject that's controversial well it's not it's not just that it's all the weird stuff the dreams right the day dreams well there's whatever Consciousness is right the the we we're really sort of committed to the idea that Consciousness lives inside the brain but that's controversial well I um I have I've concluded that in
fact Let me let me give you some background here okay okay everyone knows that uh Evolution has created Millions possibly billions of different species right so at least uh people who who kind of give some Credence to Darwin kind of get that uh and I I recently reread uh you know Darwin's magnumopus just to see what he actually said and you know he's actually very tentative about the theory of evolution in his book you know he keeps saying I know this sounds crazy but uh but it's a better alternative than saying God did it you know and then he just over and over again he says I know this is crazy but and so we end up with a theory that's pretty widely accepted that says Evolution over time because of changing environments and because there's variability and genetic code uh over and over again it keeps selecting for organisms that can survive in this new environment and so every time it does that it kind of creates divergences among those animals and those animals and over time you end up with two separate species that can't even you know produce Offspring together and we end up over time with Millions maybe billions of species all good but there's something we haven't really given much thought to and that is evolution has also created Millions if not billions of transducers so this is the beginning of what I call n or neural transduction Theory we are encased in transducers now in case people don't know what a transduc ucer is uh there's one right in front of my mouth right now it's a one-way transducer it's taking a signal over here which is just vibrating air but the vibration has a pattern to it and it's converting that signal into an electrical signal which is coming out this wire and that electrical signal has roughly the same pattern I say roughly because depends how good your microphone is but that's what transducers do they take signals from one medium send them to another medium our bodies in fact the bodies of most organisms are encased in transducers head to toe transducers okay we all know the eye is a transducer it's taking electromagnetic radiation it's turning it into what neural signals uh the ear it's taking vibrating
air it's turning into neural signals the nose it's taking Airborne chemicals turning that into neural signals the tongue is taking liquid chemicals turning that into and then the piesta resistance is uh the skin the skin is an amazing transducer which does at least three different kinds of things it can transduce temperature turn that into neural signals pressure and texture head to toe encased in transducers so we've been looking into transducers in the in the animal kingdom we've been looking at that for a couple years now and it's it's amazing the the kinds of things the kinds of transducers Nature has created so nature is a super duper amazing expert on creating transducers uh my cat okay we we we we recently have been investigating this because it turns out my cat's whiskers we don't have anything like that in us but cats whiskers they actually can detect Direction the direction the wind is blowing the direction of uh you know potential predator or insect is coming cuz they when they tilt that actually gives the cat different information if they tilt One Way versus the other way there are transducers and some animals that can DET detect magnetic fields like how birds migrate exactly uh so there's so many different kinds of transducers now what if at some point evolution in fact I don't see how this could not happen what if at some point Evolution possibly using a chemical which I know you have some interest in called DMT and possibly using a gland called the pineal gland maybe what if at some point a baby was born somewhere in central Africa maybe 20,000 years ago we're still trying to pin that down but what if a baby was born with a special coord kind of transducer that that connected up all the experience it's having with another another domain Another Universe now at first that might strike you as a little baddy but it turns out it's not baddy at all because there's not a physicist in the world an astrophysicist who doesn't believe in some variation on the Multiverse idea in other words any physicist will tell you that the kind of space that we experience is not the nature of the universe it is it is such
a pathetically limited view of the way the universe is constructed it's just outrageous it's so pathetic where we're just picking up so little information but again think about that flexibility that Evolution has over a period of billions of years you only need one baby that's born with this capability and of course that's also able to survive and pass on this capability through its genes but you only need one because once you have one you're probably going to have a lot more because this is going to be talk about survival value this is going to have unbelievable survival value if there's a connection to some intelligence in another domain call it like the Greeks did the other side call it the other side now all of a sudden we become much smarter in fact the the brain doesn't change the anatomy brain anatomy doesn't change so we don't see any change in the structure of of of the uh you know the the remains we find of Bones and so on we don't find changes there but we get a lot smarter all of a sudden we our language suddenly becomes much more complex uh we become suddenly capable of living in larger and larger groups we become moral there are no moral animals except us and we weren't always moral there seems to be a change that occurred to us not anatomically but a change that occurred to humans at some point in the past where became much more capable now all you need is a transducer that connects up our domain with another one in which we are now connected to a higher intelligence and you've got a new way of understanding how the brain works of course because we have no way of understanding how the brain works now but now we have a way and you have a new way of understanding how the universe is structured as well now we think that because I'm in touch with some physicists some neuroscientists who are very intrigued by this and we're hoping next summer to have a a conference on this um and we're even hoping to have some guy named oh Joe
Rogan maybe stop by because of your interest in DMT because DMT probably plays a role in this process but this would change everything because we could over time learn to simulate this connection if we can simulate the connection then we can control the connection we might be able to communicate more directly with these entities by the way this this Theory which I call NTT or neural neural transduction theory if in fact if people go to neural transduction theory.com they can read all about it a piece I published in discover magazine the point is that this kind of theory would really help us a lot because of the Mysteries it's the Mysteries that we try to ignore but we can't the dreams the dreams come on why why does a dream sometimes have nothing to do with your daily life sometimes it's just so amazing and so wild and and and then you get up because you have to pee and you're struggling because you want to continue this dream you want to hold on to this dream this dream is amazing but by the time you reach the toilet it's gone and you can't get it back why because it was streaming that's why it was streaming and the stream stopped that's why you can't get it back cuz you weren't generating it it was being generated through this point in time you know you know the famous ceiling of the cysteine chapel and there's I think it's Adam and I think there's God and these two fingers like that and there you know that there's some communication happening there that's extremely important that's what I'm talking about I'm saying let's find out where that is happening where that connection is and how it works and let's test our ideas empirically because I think this is a testable Theory and let's most important of all let's figure out how to simulate this because now we can talk directly to these other these these other intelligences and really find out things that we just know nothing about I'm very very fascinated by dreams uh and I I think it's always
always it's it's very interesting how we kind of dismiss them as just being hallucinations or it's just oh it's just a dream you just had a dream but some of them are so realistic and so bizarre I've always wondered like why do they seem so much like reality and how do I know what the difference is like maybe reality like as in Waking Life is a more persistent dream so when you're saying that it's streaming and that's why you can't get it back what do you think it is what do you think a dream is um and have you ever talked to like lucid dreamers or people that use techniques to try to master the traveling back and forth into the Realms of Dreams oh absolutely I'm talking to all kinds of interesting people these days some near-death experiences uh fits beautifully I I actually had my staff make a list of these mysterious phenomena they came up with a list within a few hours of 58 items there are so many weird things that we experience dreams probably top of the list what do you think they are I think they're all they all have to do with this transduction I think they're all indicators of transduction it's uh I'm not the first person by the way who's kind of thought of an ideal like this but I think I am the first person who's pointed out that now we actually have Laboratories around the world Neuroscience Labs where we could test this and I think that's that's what we're going to do we so I'm getting this group together and we're going to figure out ways of testing this and because we have so many wonderful Neuroscience Labs now around the world I don't think it's going to take 50 years I think it's going to take a few years I think we're going to find support for this Theory and then Engineers are going to start working on how to simulate it but to answer your question I think that the the the the other intelligences or intelligence that we're communicating with and that and that elevated us just like in the movie 2001 right we got elevated there were these black monoliths that appeared and people went up to them and you know the chimp like creatures touched them and I think that we we were elevated through neural transduction and I think that's I think we're going to be able to
figure out how it works where it works what chemicals are involved I'm 99% sure that DMT plays in a very important role in this process and then I think I think we will be able to figure out what these Mysteries are really all about and there and it it almost amazes me that we can live with so many Mysteries like dreams uh I don't know demonic possession uh you know there's so many crazy things that we experience near-death experiences are fascinating of course and then there's these other crazy things that happen these this the the it's the wakeup kind of thing that happens when people are dying sometimes people who've been out of touch sometimes for years and all of a sudden they wake up second the second harah they wake up and they now recognize everyone and they talk and they're fine and then 30 minutes later they die how how how could that possibly be and some of them have severe brain damage how all of a sudden could they become fully conscious again well I think it's because Consciousness is not really we're not really producing the Consciousness Consciousness has to do with that connection that connection right hand of God that connection I think we can figure out where it is and what it is and how it works so do you think it's an emerging property of human beings like you have to think single cell organisms did not have the ability to see things I think it's possible that uh other species have connections like this uh they're probably nowhere near as sophisticated obviously and they're not connected to the kinds the kinds of sources that we're connected to uh but I think I'm more concerned about the alien aspect of this where are the aliens you know the what's that called the fmy paradox familyy Paradox uh yeah where are they well it's possible that in fact I I I I just read a very interesting book on this subject by um a man named Miles an evolutionary theorist and it's very possible that this kind of leap that that occurred with us maybe 20,000 years ago it just it just does H it's so rare it's so rare for the exactly the right kind of connection to pop up because remember it has to connect two different universes
it's so rare that maybe uh in fact this book even predicts that if as we actually get out there into the universe we're going to find lots and lots and lots of species that kind of are like us but they didn't get up to that next level so they're all like chimps they don't you only get to that next level if you can make this connection well you know that's one of the most bizarre theories about human evolution is that we're the product of accelerated Evolution well this is something Darwin had a lot of trouble with because I say I reread that book uh recently and he had a lot of trouble with this he could not figure out how to get from the simple principles he introduced of uh natural selection how to get from that to morality for example how do you how do you do that right he couldn't even figure out how do we get to large groups because generally speaking except for humans organisms generally speaking live in certainly primates they live in very small groups and they can't function in large groups what about ant colonies oh ant colonies are they're they're they're much too much like us in creepy ways because they also of course have wars yeah yeah so ants I don't know but I do know that we we did seem to suddenly rather suddenly get to a higher level of functioning and I have I've presented lots and lots of smart people in multiple Fields with this challenge for years how does the brain work tell me how the brain works without introducing a metaphor like a computer metaphor and I've never found anyone who could do it never even at the MOX plunk Institute in Berlin where I I confronted a whole bunch of people with this Challenge and then I kep up in touch with them for months afterwards nothing it's we just tell ourselves stories we make up silly stories a placeholder yeah but you see but transduction neural transduction that's not one of these placeholders it's something that we can test and look at the fascination that's been now for decades with DMT what the heck is that and why is it produced by so many different PLS plants and animals and why does it produce in people a most extraordinary experience I haven't tried it but I certainly know
people who have in fact I said that I was giving a Spiel like this to some of my staff and one woman immediately said she said oh well it changed my life I go you tried DMT she said yeah she said the problem was I that I did it twice and I didn't need to do it twice because it completely changed my life the first time and then another woman was sitting there go she goes well uh I did too and she said same thing she said that the reality that she experienced on DMT was much realer than the reality she experiences in our life yeah that's what it feels like has that been your experience as well that's what everybody says yeah it's um whatever it is it doesn't seem like an illusion it seems like another reality well again it's produced mainly at Night by the pineal gland not necessarily um Rick stman from you know Rick um he now believes that it's uh produced in the brain itself and it's also produced in the liver and the lungs and it might not be the pineal gland that's producing it at all they've kind of changed their perspective on that with the Cottonwood Research Foundation some of the the studies they've been doing on it um but they know that in in some animals it's produced there as well I mean they're doing rat studies but it's whatever it is it's produced by the liver the lungs it's like it's it's endogenous it's it's the most potent psychedelic known to man and the human body makes it and it's illegal that's what Terence mikenna had the greatest line about that he said everybody's holding I know which is funny because like you have a schedule one substance that's made by the human body it's literally like making saliva illegal it's the stupidest thing ever but think about this we don't know what it does we don't know what it's for right but it's out there all over the place right and people do have these very unique experiences on it and people over and over again say that reality is more real than this reality well you know it's also very similar in its compound to C cbin especially when it's processed by the body and that's one of the more interesting theories about how humans became human was McKenna's Stone
date theory he thinks that human beings when there was climate change in the savanas as the rainforest receded into grasslands we started experimenting with different food sources and flipping over Cow Patties because there's more undulate animals in these fields and that we started eating mushrooms that were growing on the Cow Patties and mushrooms increased visual Acy make people more Amorous they start having more sex they make them better Hunters because the visual acity uh induces glossal Alia creates language all these things associating sounds with objects that all these things Blossom and then there's the doubling of the human brain size which coincides in a a timeline with that Dennis McKennon does the best job of explaining it Terren was you know a Bard and a fascinating sort of a philosopher but his brother Dennis is a hardcore scientist and the way he explains he talks about the actual physical mechanisms the differ things that happen to the human body when they encounter this this substance which also there's a bunch of different ways that people endogenously stimulated there's holotropic breathing that was it's probably stimulating that um there's a bunch of different states of meditation that people can achieve there's uh Kundalini Yoga which I know people that have both done DMT and are regular practitioners of Kundalini Yoga and they seem to think or they seem to at least state that they can achieve these states of consciousness without taking the actual drug itself they can force their brain into making it I think what's happening is that the pathway the the quality of the connection is being changed and I think that's what we can test and so I again I've been working with people in multiple fields are you saying that you think we're connected to it always and then the quality of the connection is changed by in by taking iasa or so it's just enhancing theity of the connection correct and I think uh at the opposite extreme there are a lot of things that go wrong with our brain uh maybe when we just get drunk or maybe when we get clubbed or uh that really uh diminish the connection diminish it or or just cut it temporarily right and I think I think
all of this is testable and the only problem is so far the neur Sciences Labs have not been looking for this they've just never looked for evidence of transduction but I think when we start looking for it we're going to find it and that can make two big changes in the way we see everything it can make a change and that we finally begin to understand how the brain makes us as intelligent as we are it turns out it's it's not a self-contained Processing Unit so it's not playing the role we thought it was playing but it is very critical in in the transduction process very critical M it's preparing content for transduction and of course it's bidirectional the microphone is unidirectional but the brain is a biral transducer so and it'll it'll change the way we see the structure of the universe so it's interfacing with Consciousness rather than being conscious itself oh it's not Consciousness no it's it's a it it's a it's an Avenue it's a it's a pathway and that is what is connecting us with all this other stuff this this stuff uh you know I uh I my mom uh who passed away about a year and a half ago but my mom uh those last couple years she kept saying that she was hearing uh music and she loved music she always loved music but she was hearing music that she had never heard before she said and she would sometimes try to hum the music or sing the music and she said it was was always coming from downstairs and then people would say my mom was very uh she was very sarcastic in her Manner and so someone would say well uh I don't hear anything and she go well maybe you should get your hearing checked cuz she just assumed that it was real I expressed the concern that it the m music was always downstairs I said I'd be more comfortable if we were coming from upstairs and she goes oh no she says don't worry I'm not going to hell I said okay okay fine it's coming from downstairs but that's a perfect example uh you know where where is that stuff coming from or even people who Hear Voices right well if you have a pathway into another domain where there's intelligence anything could come through true it could be the weird stuff that happens in brains it could be music
you've never heard before it could be voices telling you what to do see what I mean look at these Mysteries there just so many of them and yet we sit here complacent complacent complacent and then we make up stories that's what we do we make up stories and as long as the grammar is right we think we've got it figured out what do you mean by making up stories well like the computer metaphor you know if you go back in time uh to explain human intelligence at first it was God it was some sort of Holy Spirit then at some point it became there was actually a metaphor involving uh liquids movements of liquids and then there became mechanical machine like you know kind of decart kinds of things machines that somehow explain Consciousness and and intelligence and the metaphors keep changing over the years right now we're stuck with the computer metaphor it's still a metaphor and and it's silly it's a silly metaphor and I think we have to face up to the fact that our brain is doing something unique and special and that we couldn't always do it there's a point in time before which apparently we weren't doing it then there's a point where we started to have this ability and I think this could explain the fairy Paradox because again according to this book by Mills is was quite interesting uh Unless somehow something uplifts you beyond just what normal Evolution can do you're stuck you're being a chimp that's it you're stuck as chimp forever no morality small groups okay but humans are fundamentally different we did make that leap the one Darwin couldn't figure out and I think this is the leap so I've also been I started it out in math and physics a long time ago and I've also been looking at the at at the physics and the physics is there the physicists uh they know that this reality is just not it so take take those two problems that is to say the structure of the universe is actually very rich and complicated and very hard for us to imagine and the fact that we have no idea how the brain works and add to that all the Mysteries you could you could take care of all of these problems with a neural transduction Theory especially if we can find supporting evidence and when you say the
universe you're talking essentially about all aspects of it including like subatomic particles which is like the deepest Mysteries When Things become magic when things don't make any sense at all right well I I think frankly if we could if we could simulate this connection we could actually communicate directly with other intelligence intelligences and actually find out answers some to some questions we're having trouble answering on our own frankly even the biggest mystery of all the god mystery you know of course ironically DMT is sometimes called the God particle MH but even that mystery I think we probably could get some insights on even that mystery because there I doubt the god of the Bible exists but there's got to be something you know some Godlike entity involved in um in creation you know uh I think creation is much more complicated than we think it is but the point is I think that if we can communicate directly that's that's to me that you know I get these fantasies like building a nationwide monitoring system and building a dashboard so people can watch it in real time um when that thing actually started to exist I thought this is crazy I can't believe I cannot believe that we did this uh I think this is I think this neural transduction stuff I think is of the same nature um now and then I get this I get this funny feeling like an intuition maybe that and I have it for neural transduction in other words I'm pretty sure neural transduction is right in fact I've there's a whole bunch of people now that I've convinced uh including including a physicist who's apparently going to be driving up here later today we're going to have dinner with him but he's he he almost in instantly just got it because a good theory and this is what Darwin keeps saying in his book he keeps saying a good theory explains a lot with very very simple principles and that's why he kept saying you know uh natural selection was such a good theory because it explains so much so many crazy things like like he points to a particular species that's on an
island and has these characteristics and it has similar characteristics to the mainland that's nearby he goes all right but over here there's another Island it's similar species but has very different characteristics but it has characteristics similar to the species on the mainland which is nearby he said now you could invoke God and say God is just kind of like this you know checkerboard kind of arrangement so he he just scatters species about in this way but he said there's a simpler way which is just natural selection and you know some organisms move from the island to the mainland or or the other direction and they end up sharing characteristics I me doesn't that make more sense he keeps saying and I to me that's what neural transduction is at this point I think it explains so much so simply and it's consistent with this notion that evolution is fabulous at creating transducers somehow we've ignored that and so as we've dug in farther and farther we are finding the weirdest transducers in all kinds of species especially sea creatures and so couldn't it you know if it's if there is a way to connect two universes couldn't Evolution find a way at some point right um when you're talking about this connection are you talking about some sort of a technological intervention are you talking about just natural selection creating this connection and enhancing it in new people oh I'm definitely talking about it arising naturally organically organically absolutely but separate from that I'm saying that as we've as we've been able to simulate so many aspects of what happens you know in in the organic world uh we're even creating organic transducers now you know not just these mechanical ones we're creating organic ones too I think that if we can figure out how it works we will be able to simulate it and that again will change everything because right now what happens happens naturally and I think you're right there are some people who through through the certain practices and maybe the use of a certain uh drugs you know can can kind of alter what happens along that pathway but it's a lot of work a lot of
dedication uh I think though that we can we'll be able to simulate this uh maybe some combination of technology and perhaps organic material how do you imagine that we would simulate this do you think we would come up with something that would you know how they use like electromagnets to um stimulate parts of the brain that have been sure hurt in trauma and are not firing anymore they do that with people that have traumatic brain injuries and they give them back a lot of their function do you think there'd be something like that like some kind of technology that would stimulate your brain's ability to produce these human neurochemicals and just do it in much larger quantities I yes I think we could or do it voluntarily I think we can find artist artificial means of improving the connection yes improving the nature of the connection yes and you think the nature of the connection is based on human neurochemistry I do and but I also think separate from that that we can create devices like we have uh you know knee Replacements and hip replacements and we don't have brain Replacements but uh there's a lot of stuff that we've been able to study in organisms and basically replic at in various ways uh sometimes just using technology and you know spare parts and some sometimes we're not using actual Organics uh but yeah I think we can do that too so that we can alter the nature of the connection occurring in someone's brain but I think also we can simulate it outside of the brain and that's where real power would come from So when you say by simulated outside of the brain what methods do you think would be able to be efficient at doing something like that or make it effective well I mean like a box there's a box okay I'm stealing this the chimpanzee skull yeah so there's a so there's a box okay and literally this box is taking is is a transducer like this microphone and it's taking content from our universe and it is sending it into the other and this is biral so it actually can send signals back as well and I'm saying I think we can figure out how to do that so what would that box be tuning into specifically I don't know because I
don't know I don't know that's the point no one knows what that is you know no one knows what's happening in that Gap right between the two fingers but because I think no one's been looking you know we have all these Clues and we have the DMT stuff and we have people's experiences and you know we have all so many different Clues we have people who see ghosts and you know there they are Clues but you got to put it together and you have to put it together in my opinion in Neuroscience labs and in physics labs and you've got to get those people talking to each other which they generally speaking have never done that's often the key to dramatic increases in our understanding of whatever it is that's often the key is bringing together people from very different fields who generally speaking don't communicate in this case it's mainly physicists especially astrophysicists and neuroscientists and as I say I've been doing this I've been reaching out to people now for a couple of years and I'm finding I'm I'm getting this group uh you know and I Stan's on my list I I'm going to I'm going to reach out to people you've suggested and I think we can I I think we're just going to have a ball first of all just getting us all together and getting up and giving little speeches about how how you think you could test this Theory um maybe about how you think you could build an interface uh I think we're just going to have a ball and I think what's important that ties Us in with your research is that all of this would lead to an improvement in human communication human Community the way we interface with each other the way we exchange information and the way we collectively act as a group whereas the manipulation of this information for political goals for financial goals for you know ideological capture for manipulating the way human beings think about things is really the contrary to that it's the opposite of that effect it's the exact opposite and you know look I I'm I am an idealist I've uh in my classes for years and years just for fun I would give a i distribute a test of idealism because I always wanted to see whether any student could score as I did
as high as I did and I never found a student who could score as I as high as I did on test of idealism so that's yeah these things that I work on they're all of that of that nature uh and yes if you if you if you kind of take this neural trans uction idea and try to think ahead a few years this could be the key to telepathy real telepathy this could create uh a kind of unity in humankind that has never existed before and it could also connect us more meaningfully with intelligent entities outside of our universe you know in the early 20th century when they first started studying iasa they wanted to describe they wanted to use the label um telepathine for um harine but unfortunately harming had already been labeled and so you know because the rules of scientific nomenclature they kept the term harine but these people that weren't aware that that harmine had been isolated were trying to call this stuff telepathine because in their experiences in the jungle when they were taking this stuff they were experiencing these group telepathic moments and they had decided these was are hardcore scientists they decided that this was such a profound experience and so replicatable that they um we're gonna call it telepathine which is really interesting really speaks to what you're saying well you know it could be that we're we're going full circle here because uh DMT you know which is which is I guess a key a key component in the in iasa DMT has got to be playing a role here it's just got to be you know it's it's it's staring Us in the face all these little pieces in my opinion have are just there they're just there well it's in so many different plants that we have developed a thing called monoamine oxidase that breaks it down in our guts so that we don't get high from all the plants we eat which is pretty crazy well uh but again it just drives the point home that the our world is is kind of it's telling us things it's telling us there's a component to our world that we've missed and that the fact that this this dimethyl tryptamine exists in so many different plants and animals which brings me back to complacence because that's that is one of the things that's
driven me nuts regarding all the discoveries I've made about new forms of manipulation made possible by the internet and now the monitoring systems showing more and more and in more detail that these techniques are actually being employed on a massive scale and again it's the complacence you know we're complacent about things that we don't need to be complacent about we're complacent about how the mind works and how the brain works and we're complacent about dreams how could you be complacent about dreams dreams are so amazing I have had I've dreamt fulllength movies that are better than any movie I've ever seen and then of course I'm struggling at the end to grab on to little pieces and the most I can get her a couple little pieces but I know I dreamt the whole thing by the way that's exactly the same as psychedelic experiences really psychedelic experiences are insanely difficult to remember they're insanely difficult to remember in the exact same way like when you wake up from a dream you could tell me your dream like oh my God I was on a skateboard and Godzilla was chasing me you could tell me your dream but you won't remember that dream in a while and that's a same as psychedelic experiences when they're over everyone can kind of tell you what they experienced but it's very difficult to remember it a day later a month later a year later you get like these little flashes like almost like a like a a slideshow little slideshow oh yeah that thing oh yeah that part I forgot about that part but you don't remember the experience which seems strange because I remember amazingly profound experiences from my life in Vivid detail like um interactions with my children that were just filled with love and happiness you know when they hug you and cry and just like there's moments you remember like God I'm never going to forget that there's moments that I remember just with friends and I'm like I'm never going to forget this moment with loved ones but not not the dreams not these crazy profound Earth shattering dreams that make you wake up sweating you go to the bathroom you're like what the was that dream about that happens to me all the time and then I go right back to sleep and then the dream goes away and
then in the morning I'm like I'm going to remember that I don't remember it I don't remember it at all I barely remember it's a slideshow your brain is protecting you somehow there's something and there was something that I was reading actually uh yesterday about uh forgetfulness that it is not a flaw but a feature and that there's something there's a mechanism that's going on that allows human beings to forget things and that in doing so it's very beneficial not keeping you occupied on those things and allowing you to concentrate on new things so instead of just allowing you to have the free will to decide whether or not to think about the past or think about the future it tries to get rid of it like stop get that out of here so it kills it it like throws those those ideas away and that this is actually a feature where people say God I'm so forgetful but are you I mean some people are because they have a mental condition right they have Alzheimer's they have dementia they have real issues but a lot of people what they're really doing is thinking about other things and that's what makes them forgetful they're more concentrating on other things and they can't remember what did I say like like my wife will tell me things I'm barely paying attention and she's like I told you that I'm like when did you tell me that like I told you that yesterday I already forgot because it didn't mean anything to me at the time because I have to filter through and then Debbie said to Marsha and Marsha was like how could you do that and I was I was going to say something but I didn't want I forget about that that's in and out cuz I got no room for that right but some people remember it forever and you got to think what is that forgetfulness well this article that I was reading was talking about that forgetting memories is actually a feature and so there might be some component of that that you're not totally past this bridge that would connect us to whatever that realm is and that you get these brief interactions with that realm but you're not ready to be Allin yet you're not ready to be connected to it you're not ready to remember all the experiences that you had in this mushroom trip that you went on it's just too much for you so let's
just let's just get that out of your system because your regular Consciousness is not wired to accept the reality of what what that realm is and the fact that the other thing that that realm is there in 30 seconds especially with dimethyl tryptamine 30 seconds later you're in an impossible realm 15 minutes later that's gone 20 minutes later you're struggling to remember it half an hour later it's mostly gone okay now everything you just said involved storytelling I'm not telling stories I'm just saying I think this content is streaming it's not being generated by our brain and that's why we have so much trouble remembering it because we weren't producing it but it's not necessarily storytelling it's just memories in general there's something about there's a mechanism I'm telling you that's happening with psychedelic trips where it's almost impossible to remember them and I think that's a feature but I'm I'm I'm saying something far more radical I'm saying there is no memory there is no memory okay but has applied to Everyday Life there is no in a practical sense no there's no so in a practical sense when you say who's the first president of the United States don't you think you have a memory that it's George Washington uh I think I I might respond George Washington but it's not stored anywhere in my brain well of course it is because that's what you learned you learn that in high school or where whenever you learned it it's not so how do you know if it's not in your brain if it's not stored in your brain so like if I could ask you what your son's name is you know what your son's name is because it's stored in your memory there's nothing stored in my memory and certainly not my son's name is so how do you know your son's name well because I was exposed to it I probably even came up with it a long time ago and under certain circumstances if I'm asked what his name is under circumstances you don't remember his name yes that happens to as you get older especially with your kids it's really it's really embarrassing and what do you think that is well I'm I'm I'm trying to say that the there is no memory in the brain I'm saying there's a there's there's a the transduction transduction is occurring and when the brain gets
damaged the the transducer like if I smash this microphone the the transduct C process right but you're still avoiding the question like how do you know your son's name if it's not in your memory okay me memory itself is a metaphor there used to be the old memory metaphor was based on a library and shelves and then there were other ones based on uh interconnected neurons acting in in cycles and then there were there these are all metaphors there is no memory in the brain so my that article of mine I mentioned the empty brain uh the that's what it's all about is it explains that there is no memory is the way we use the term memory it's just another metaphor so for example uh uh who's that Wonder Daniel Barb who was one of my favorite conductors and pianists by the time he was 17 he had memorized all 31 of Beethoven's piano sonatas so I had someone count up the notes it's about 350,000 notes and almost as many markings of various sorts for the pedals and volume and all that stuff it's a tremendous amount of data tremendous amount of data and you know what you can search Daniel bars he's still alive you can search his brain forever and you'll never find a single note it's not in his brain so where is it well it depends what you mean by it the the the music is nowhere he didn't absorb the music the the the but he remembered how to make the music no no he was under some conditions able to make the music right but there's no memory involved if someone teaches someone how to do something MH you don't remember how to do that thing that's not what it is it means that there's that some change is occurring ing that allows you under certain conditions to do that thing again or something similar to it but if there's like skills that I could teach you you don't think you remember those skills like I taught you physical skills like I taught you how to put somebody in an arm bar you don't think that's a memory no it's definitely not it's not a memory no so what is it it's a change some sort of change is occurring whether it's occurring uh in your brain some sort of a change or whether it's occurring in the in that that link so
how does the brain differentiate between what it remembers and what it doesn't remember if memories aren't real maybe I can make the point this way okay demonstration in class I would say to people uh who who knows what a dollar bill looks like so someone comes up to the board and they draw a dollar bill and I'd say now make it as detailed as you possibly can so they draw a dollar bill and it kind of has a place where there's a face and it kind of has some ones in the corners and usually that's as far as people can get and I and I say well let's try an experiment here so I cover up the dollar bill that they just drew I tape a piece of paper and then I tape up a real dollar bill and I say maybe the person Drew what they drew and it was so terrible because they're a bad artist let's find out so I say here now draw a dollar bill so they've got a dollar bill right up on the board and now they draw This Magnificent dollar bill They're copying the dollar bill yeah and so they so they got but the point is there is no image of the dollar bill in their head right because they haven't had a detailed sort of examination of the dollar bill most people just give a cursory examination to a dollar bill you look down oh that's a five it's a 20 I mean I kind of know was it Andrew Jackson's on the 20 you know you you know most people are not really paying that much attention to it but if you get a dollar bill scholar and someone who really understands dollar bills they probably could like have you ever seen Al Franken draw the United States no it's really interesting Al Franken very unfortunate would happen to that guy because I think you would been a fantastic politician still uh very interesting person very intelligent and a real Patriot so uh Al Franken can draw the entire United States accurately with all the state boundaries from memory see if you can pull that up it's very interesting why because here it is so Al Franken has deeply studied the parameters of the states and the state lines and can recreate them from memory why because he's done this before and he has a record in his mind of what this looks like because he's carefully examined that there are things that I've had conversations with people
you know a couple of weeks ago and I probably don't remember them and then there's things where I could tell you word for word someone said there's got to be a reason for that and if you're not calling it memory what are you calling it I'm I'm trying to introduce a different concept because I can tell I understand you are doing that but I don't know what you're introducing well I'm trying to tell you that if you cut open Al franken's brain you will never find a map of the United States but he can do that and he he is the same thing as me I can't do that yeah and you're and you're wondering why well because I'll tell you why because I haven't tried to do that and studied it and memorized how to do it the same way I could teach you how to memorize certain movements I could teach you how to memorize certain physical movements and then if you practice them I could ask you in a couple of weeks try to do it again and you'd be able to do it but maybe you forget certain key points of those movements so then I would correct you and then I teach you well you would remember how to do those and then I would say what are you supposed to do with your hand you're like oh left hand up that's rightz you remember it so you might not be able to find that in your brain but it's very clear that something is going on where you are able to memorize things and memorize them better with music right conjunction Junction what's your function right we all remember that why because it's attached to music and music makes things easier to remember never heard my whole life you never heard Conjunction Junction no but the point is the thing Schoolhouse Rock but you do understand you do understand though right that there are people who could glance at a map of the United States never having seen one before and then could go up to a board and draw the whole thing in detail yeah they have a different kind of memory and then generally those people are on the Spectrum I'm trying to tell you there is no memory there's no memory okay there's nothing no one looking into the brain I is there anyone that can draw an accurate map of the United States without having ever looked at an accurate map of the United States I
doubt it okay but there are people who can draw things from their dreams that they have never seen before but they have seen them in their dreams and how do we even know if they're accurate they might be as accurate as that dollar bill drawing that okay do do are you open to the idea that memory in the brain is just a metaphor sure okay so are you open to the idea that there is possibly no memory and we still could do all the things we can do but there's no memory well you're calling it memory right and I'm saying as a physical function as a function a thing happening there's a you can memorize things that's how you learn a new language right you memorize you know me I'm Rogan you know that's how you do it you remember right so if you're saying that that doesn't exist I'm saying what is happening give me some sort of a replacement I am I'm giving you transaction right but where is it stored I don't know okay I want to find out that storage don't you think we use couldn't you use the term memory to accurately describe that storage it's not but it's not in our brain right so the people who are looking in brains and looking for memories that they're not finding it just that they haven't found it yet or they don't understand that you're not going to be able to see it in the same way that you see cells then the I've talked to some of the top neuroscientists who study memory okay and the first thing they say is I can't find it because I don't think it's actually there so I perhaps let me ask you this how do we know what size memory is so if are they looking in the subatomic realm are are they looking at particles that are quantumly entangled how do they know what what they're looking for does is it simply that we have a limited amount of tools well a much simpler idea see these are all they're interesting Concepts they are right but a much simpler idea is that the brain look at look at all this space that this microphone this is a very good quality microphone and it takes a lot of stuff in there for it to work as well as it does right so a much simpler idea given that no one's ever found any anything remotely like memory inside the brain okay uh and I actually asked Eric kandell who was a uh was in his 80s at
the time and who a Nobel Prize for his work on a memory in the apelia uh I said how long do you think it's going to be before we understand human memory and he said 100 years meaning we aren't right so isn't a simpler idea that the brain is actually like this that the brain is a transducer allowing us to communicate with higher intelligence in Another Universe isn't that a simpler idea no no that's not simpler at all that's way more complex no that's super simple it's way more complex than experiences being stored in a functional way so that you can benefit from them except that there's no evidence of any storage and there never will be how could you say there never will be if he said 100 years 100 years is not never 100 years ago we were exactly the same species as we are right now you had to be there it was the way he said it when I understand I understand what you're saying but if look before they understood spooky action at a distance before they understood subatomic particles if you had tried to explain that to someone from you know 1850 they'd be like what the are you talking about but now it's understood it's measurable it's something that we we agree upon that subatomic particles that atoms that neutrinos all these things exist bizarre things that we could there's neutrinos passing through us right now right from space there's a neutrino detector in the Antarctica we know that there's these things that we didn't know existed exist as we have more access to technology more understanding of the mechanisms of the mind isn't it possible that we could say oh this is where memories are stored and isn't it true that if certain areas of the brain are damaged in particular it will damage memories isn't that true it will damage the transduction process yeah okay you're married to this transduction process I'm not saying that it's not in there's something happening let's not even say it's in the brain maybe it's in the entire body maybe it's in every cell maybe it's in the DNA whatever it is there's something in there well I'm trying to point out that there the something is something we haven't thought about in the past and it
would actually solve so many problems I see what you're saying in terms of communication with whatever that other realm is but what I'm saying is that there might be and forget about the term the brain local let's just say local local okay there cuz we you know when I'm accessing you know oh I know how what if I press the turmeric button on the coffee machine it makes the kind I like that's locally stored you know other people don't know that if they've never Ed that machine right this this is locally stored information forget about finding it in the brain it might be in the DNA we don't know where it is but there's I know you know how to start my car I know how to put it in drive because I've done it before yeah so something is happening where I'm storing information and the more information I store the more it makes me effective at discussing certain things there are certain things that I don't have any information about I haven't read them I haven't memorized them okay you you are married to the information processing metaphor I'm not it's just a metaphor there is no information in the brain challenging this thing that you're saying that I don't think sounds as complete as you're saying it sounds but the good news is it's testable it's empirically testable and I don't think it's going to take 20 years I think it's just going to take maybe five years I think it's because the labs already exist and it's not like studying you know black holes where you can't really access them and you have to you know because we can actually study brains and we have lots of great equipment it's just no one's ever looked for what I'm talking about and the point is as I talked to more neuroscientists and physicists they're saying the same thing they're saying this has to be right and we just need to look for it we never have before let's let's speculate let's say that they start looking for it and they find evidence that this is actually occurring don't forget about crazy things the Consciousness turns off and then Consciousness turns on what what what what's right well uh psychotic States yeah but see that I'm just saying it's a it's just an interruption in a pathway got it that's really easy right
which makes sense for psychotic States right there's some sort of a disturbance the way the system is running and it's not tuning in to the other side the right way it takes care of of psychotic States just like that I mean think of how how useful how how you know it's it's it does you you you got to go back and read Darwin because that's exactly what Darwin keeps saying it was it was eye openening for me uh to read this book because that's what he keeps saying he keeps saying look I know this sounds nutty but mhm it's much better than any other crazy story that you're going to tell we were actually just having this conversation the other day with Brett Weinstein oh really and Brett Weinstein who's a biologist and and his his belief is that um random m ation natural selection darwinian Evolution they're all real it's all absolutely happening but then there's probably also factors that we haven't figured out yet and that that's that's what shows human beings like that's how human beings this is the factor this is that thing this is that this is what gets you up to that next level and it's consistent with the ideas that physicists have about the structure of the universe again just start with the basics that evolution is fantastic at producing all kinds of weird bizarre transducers and that were encased in transducers from head to toe couldn't if the if the universe is what we think it is couldn't Evolution at one point because it's producing all kinds of new traits all the time couldn't it produce a brain that has that feature that connects us boom right were connected that it might be an emerging quality in humans and then 20,000 years ago it emerged and emerged and it just brought us up like this just like in 2001 it just we go up to here and that could help explain the fmy Paradox because there could be lots of chimp-like creatures all over the Galaxy but they just never made it to that level because well that's where the weirdness of the whole accelerator Evolution Theory comes into place I mean this is you get into the the kookiest of cooky stuff the Anunnaki and the Sumerian text and that this idea that these lower primates were manipulated and that something was introduced into
their genes and that this something is probably some genetics from some Superior race or some more advanced race and that we took on that and that it became a part of us and now it's in our gene pool and now we're moving in that general direction with this different connection I I you know I've read some of these books they're really fascinating truly they hold my attention but page after page after page I keep S I keep saying yeah but neural transduction theory is much simpler it's just one one tiny little change that has to I don't think they're mutually exclusive because neural transaction Theory as you're saying if there's these primates on these other planets that never achieved this and then there are ones that have and have transcended that these ones that have transcended recognize this quality that's missing in these chimpanzees and they introduce it we don't need them it's possible but we don't need them we have Evolution that's but that's why it's accelerated Evolution it's it's saying like look they've they've concluded that primates right now have entered the Stone Age do you know that so they're starting to use tools so it was really interesting right so if given enough time you give them a 100 million years who knows what chimp is going to look like 100 million years from now they might be like us they might do it naturally the speculation and again I'm this is not something I'm married to but the speculation this kooky speculation is that we were visited by extraterrestrials extraterrestrials that were far more advanced and that they found us as these simple thrwing primates and they said let's let's juice this process up a little bit we know where this is going to go eventually hopefully if everything works out but let's Juice It Up let me connect what you just said with what I've been saying easy connection okay and uh it brings us into the world of UFOs because whether this capability arose on its own which it could or whether it was Juiced up a little bit by some Outsiders which it could which it could then either way we're now in a position where we could in theory communicate in more meaningful ways with extraterrestrials we
could and we might by understanding how transduction works we might figure out how to do that so not just communicating with people in another universe but communicating with extraterrestrials some of these extraterrestrials in fact most of them maybe all of them have to have this ability they have to have that transduction ability or they never would have gotten above chimp level right so maybe this is our way of connecting with them as well and that we're on the path but we're not quite there yet we're not quite there yet but I think we could get there really fast and again some of these neuroscientists I've been talking to they are saying the same thing because this is not like studying I don't know this is not like studying I'll say black holes again but this is different because we've got thousands of labs some of them extremely sophisticated Labs we're just not looking for this what happens if we start looking for this and uh so what we've been doing is we've been trying to work out uh experiments that can be conducted and that should produce one result or another depending on whether transduction uh is occurring and that's the goal is find empirical support for this type of theory if we can find empirical support the more support we find obviously uh the more convincing this will be and then that would bring in the engineers it's the engineers who could really make this thing sing so it's a it's another one of my intuitions call it that but I think I think the I think the the data are all around us they're all around us and by the way there are a couple people I have turned on to this who just all of a sudden become obsessed because all of a sudden you see all around you reminders of all the weird stuff and you realize wait all this stuff that seems so weird you know what it's not weird at all if NT is valid if this theory is valid the stuff that's that we think is weird is not weird at all in fact it's it makes perfect sense psychosis you brought up psychosis but there's so many things like that and they and all of a sudden they're not mysterious at all they make
very good sense how about something one of my favorites is uh Deja Vu or how about meeting someone that you feel like you've known them forever I've had that happen sure it's an amazing experience it's it's visceral it's so powerful it's so strong uh uh how could that possibly be well see if you've got neural transduction Theory there in your in your toolbox you go oh that's easy yeah lots of stuff just falls into place now I have to point out that I'm wearing this idiotic Starburst thing mhm tbig tech.com oh thank you every time you say that I just get the chills uh because uh I need help I desperately need pe people's help so we have spent $7 million building the world's first Nationwide monitoring system that is doing to those bastards what they do to us and our kids 24 hours a day we are surveilling them for the first time we are finding overwhelming evidence that they are very deliberately and systematically messing with us and our elections especially I personally have believe that as of 2012 the free and fair election at least at the national level has not existed it's just been manipulated it's just been manipulated since 2012 I say this in part because I met one of the people on Google's uh Tech team on on Obama's Tech Team either I should say which was being run by Eric Schmidt the head of Google at the time I talked to him at Great length about what the tech team was doing they had full access to all of Google's Shenanigans all those manipulations uh and one member of that team asked by a reporter how many of the Four Points by which Obama won how many of those points did he get from the tech team and the guy said Elon kgal I believe his name is his he was actually quoted and he said two of the points came from us now Obama won by 5 million votes roughly and two out of four points came from the tech team that's 2 and a half million votes by 2016 I had calculated that Google could shift uh and it would be toward Hillary Clinton of course whom I supported at the time that Google could shift between 2.6 and 10.4 million votes to Hillary
Clinton in that election with no one knowing she won the popular vote by 2.8 million votes if you take Google out of that election the popular vote would have been tied couple days after that election everyone every all the leaders in Google get up on stag this this I'm sure you've seen this it's an amazing video and they're talking to all of Google's 100,000 employees and they're one by one they're going up to the mic and saying we are never going to let that happen again yeah we are never going to let that happen again which is democ they're never going to let democracy happen again exactly that's what I'm saying it's so crazy to be blatantly and openly talking about that and 2020 we didn't it's a virtue we already had a pretty big monitoring system we preserved 1.5 million ephemeral experiences our data show that Google shifted at least 6 million votes to Joe Biden who won the popular vote by about 8 million so again take Google out of the equation that would have been pretty much a tie in the the popular vote and Trump would have won 11 out of 13 swing States instead of five so going forward from roughly 2012 I think the the free and fair election has been an illusion an illusion and this is something it's very weird and kind of ironic but this is something that Dwight D Eisenhower warned about in that last speech of his his farewell speech he warned about the rise of military-industrial complex everyone's heard about that but he also warned about the rise of a technological Elite that could someday control public policy without anyone knowing and the technological Elite are now in control that's what we have that's where I get back to my my ranting and my my pain because I realized no one is paying attention Eisen said we have to be alert or this will happen we have not been alert and the fact is people right this second who I give speeches to sometimes they get all riled up and then they walk out of the auditorium with their surveillance phones mine is not this is a secure phone but they walk out with their surveillance phones in their pocket and they use all the surveillance tools that Google has set up for them and other companies too now
and they think isn't this nice this company's doing all this nice stuff for me and giving me all this free stuff that's not the business model all those free things are just apps that trick you into giving up personal data and then they monetize the data and they use it to control you that's what's really happening that's the business model and people can't see it and I'm telling you I've been working on this for 12 years and it's gotten to the point where I am wiped out I am fed up I am exhausted I am disillusioned and um and I'm lonely because since Misty was killed 5 years ago I sometimes feel like I'm literally dying of loneliness and the fact that other people around me have been hurt one quite one quite ser seriously uh makes me a little nervous too and that's where I am at this point and it's a it's a terrible place to be terrible now it took $7 million to build what we've built but it's been really tough okay we're talking about like raising a dollar at a time it's been really really difficult and for us to set this up so that it's actually permanent and self- sustaining and so we have court admissible data in all 50 states which will make these companies think it'll make them think think twice maybe that is going to require at least another $50 million that gets us a secure facility and our own servers and a security team we have virtually no security hear that Google and they know this because a couple months ago they attacked us in an extremely sophisticated way I've never seen this before when you say they who I don't know someone I don't know Google has what did they do it was very very unusual it was not it was it was not the usual thing what they did was they uh they got our uh our accounts they got our they got our apps to to run uh kind of at Ludicrous Speed I guess you could say and what they did was they pulled in more and more and more servers until we were running so many servers simultaneously that we actually got shut down in the cloud uh and we lost access to our own data for almost two
weeks now we've never seen an attack like that even the our security people had never seen an attack like that it was really pretty what was the mechanism of this attack how' they do it we're not sure how they got in one once they got in all they did was they just created a tremendous amount of activity so that that that pulled in more and more resources and this is definitely created this is not organic oh no no no it's AB absolutely created but and and now now we're now that we know about this particular kind of attack uh if it happens again we'll be up within two days max but uh the point is there's a lot of pressure on us so we need a lot of money to set up a secure Facility have security teams not just protecting our data but protecting our people we have to protect our people uh have you ever talked to Elon about this stuff I I've never had a way to reach him well hopefully someone will take this clip and put it on X and he's a junkie He he'll be on it all day so so hopefully someone will put it to his attention and put it up there cuz I'm sure this is very concerning to him I mean he has uh a vested interest in this clearly what happened when he purchased Twitter and he found out the extent of government interference in free speech and uh how many uh people were being pressured to uh not talk about certain things that were inconvenient or how many accounts they were trying to get taken down because these accounts were uh purveyors of misinformation that turned out to be absolutely accurate there's uh he has a a de distrust for sure well he he has a few times lately he has retweeted content about my work so he's aware he might be he might be aware uh and there's another way also by the way to take down Google uh which I the I published this in Bloomberg businessweek if you if you go to Epstein and businessweek.com you'll actually see the article and it's we've reached the point where data have become an essential part of our lives and the way to take down Google is to do what governments have been doing for hundreds of years to declare their index the database they use to generate search results to be a public Commons this is exactly what governments do when water uh electricity telephone
Communications any commodity any service becomes essential governments at some point have to step in with the electric companies they were all privately owned I didn't know that I didn't realize that they were all privately owned until the government had to step in and this is where we are now with data and the biggest baddest database in the world is Google's because it's the gateway to all knowledge it needs to be declar to public Commons as I say ample precedent for that in law it's very light touch regulation and what it'll do is it'll allow other people to draw from the database to create their own Niche search engines so you know you'll create a search engine for people interested in uh DMT and UFOs someone will create one for women for lithuanians for you know we'll end up with thousands of these search engines all of which V are vying for attention it would be exactly like the news exactly like the news the the news media that domain and that's the way it should be search should be competitive Google Google was not the first search engine it was the 21st so that's how you do it and also then search would become Innovative again there have been there have been no Innovations in search for the 20 years that Google has dominated search so uh uh General Paxton Ken Paxton of of this this great state of Texas he's interested in this uh uh Senator Cruz is interested other people are interested this would be tough to implement in the US but the EU could do it because five of Google's data centers are in the EU the EU could do it in a Flash and they're very frustrated with Google because they've been trying to keep them under control for a long time now and they' failed so there are some things that could be done permanent large scale monitoring system that is a necessity that must be there because if you don't have that you don't know what these companies are doing you don't know how they're messing with our minds with our kids minds and with our elections you have to monitor and you have to have court admissible data in every state and probably in every country and then they will pull back a little bit because they
have to they're violating campaign Finance laws when they when they very blat ly support one candidate or one party they're making huge in-kind donations without declaring them so another thing they're doing right now perfect example of something our system is capturing right the second right the second Google is sending register to vote reminders to Democrats at about two and a half times the rate they're sending them to Republicans how do I know because that's what that's what the monitoring system shows that's what they're doing at some point that's going to turn into partisan mail in your ballot reminders and then that turns into partisan go vote reminders these are just displayed on Google's homepage we're capturing the homepages by the millions if you don't capture them then the content is ephemeral and it disappears and it's gone forever and you can't go back in time if figure out what they were doing so monitoring is no longer optional it's it and it by the way monitoring is fast unlike uh you know regulations and laws monitoring can keep up with whatever the tech company is dishing out the next company the next Google after that monitoring can keep up you if you're going to have an internet and it can mess with people's lives and it can mess with governments and elections and so on then you've got to have monitoring systems in place so that's what I've been that's what this new um my monograph is about and if people want to get a free copy of it tbig tech.com tame tame tame ttech.com [Laughter] um you you you crack me up sometimes really I I'd love to see you do a comedy routine uh listen Robert thank you for being here uh I really really appreciate what you're doing if you weren't doing this I don't know if it would get done I don't know if we would know as much as we know I think it would be speculative I think people would have ideas I think it would be impossible to prove and I think what you what you've done is a tremendous service for people so thank you very much Tam big.com thank you but I'm still fed up just so you know okay thanks Robert yep bye everybody [Music]