Video URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMNW-orIpU8
[Music] and we're up gentlemen what's happening good to see you hey you're happening man good to see you thank you for having me beautiful purple shirt i love it thanks for having us and um thank you and bill tell first of all tell me what's going on with minds minds is one of the first that i was aware of like alternative social media networks that was committed to free speech what how how's it going it's going i mean there's sort of a whole landscape of alternative networks emerging and so you've got this spectrum of apps where you've like i think of i put everything through a litmus test when i'm thinking of an alternative network basically is it transparent does it publish their source code most of these alternative apps i don't need to name names but i could then they don't publish their source code so you can't look at the algorithms to see what's happening you can't see if there's spyware in there if they have google analytics little nasty stuff so you're talking about getter getter yeah um because i found out that parlor rumble now and now i'm i'm not trying to trash these people i think that the free speech stuff is good like the more but some of their terms aren't even free speech so you know free speech policy is essential so i absolutely respect any network that is putting forward a free speech policy but if you can't have free speech policy with sketchy algorithms and closed source code because then we don't know if you're soft uh censoring shadow banning we don't know what's happening in the news feed behind the scenes which we definitely know facebook does instagram does twitter does that's all real right so then you've got are they privacy focused end-to-end encrypted do they have access to the content of your messages um like so we use a antenna encrypted messenger protocol called matrix so that we don't even have access to people's conversations like i don't want
access right and then you've also got um you know do they pay creators fairly so you've got these check marks that you go through with each but open source is key the future there is nothing without open source any app if they're claiming to be an alternative and they're not open source they're not in the same conversation it's a completely different animal and they should not be taken seriously because they're not being transparent with the world so and then you get into decentralization and actually building an app that so google says don't be evil but it's really can't be evil make it we want to make it impossible for us to even take down our network at all and that's why like immutable distributed systems like blockchains and uh you know tor and all of the ipfs all of these different decentralized systems are emerging and we're in we're interacting with them we're not fully decentralized yet so but that's there's like a progression that a lot of apps in the web three slash decentralized web space are moving towards so okay and and so daryl to fill people in on you you've been on the podcast before and you have an incredible history you're a brilliant musician and you have personally converted what's the number now it's more than 200 ku klux klan members neo-nazis i mean we talked about uh these guys giving you their their clan outfits and retiring because they met you and just because you had reasonable conversations with them made them realize how stupid these ideologies that they had somehow or never been captivated by i mean at the end of the day you know a missed opportunity for dialogue is a missed opportunity for conflict resolution it's as simple as that but it's not just having a dialogue or a conversation or debate it's the way that we have it how we communicate you know that makes it effective like for example you know i've been to 61 countries on six continents i've played in all 50 states so all that is to say that i've been exposed to a multitude of skin colors ethnicities religions cultures ideologies etc and all of that has shaped who i've become now all that travel does not make me a
better human being than somebody else it just gives me a a better perspective of mass humanity and what i've learned is that no matter how far i've gone from our own country right next door to canada or mexico or halfway around the globe no matter how different the people i encounter may be they don't look like me they don't speak my language they don't worship as i do or whatever i always conclude at the end of the day that we all are human beings and as such we all want these same five core values in our lives everybody wants to be loved everybody wants to be respected everybody wants to be heard we all want to be treated fairly and we all basically want the same things for our family as anybody else wants for their family and if we learn to apply those five core values when we find ourselves in an adversarial situation or a culture or society in which we're unfamiliar i can guarantee that the navigation will be a lot more smoother and essentially that's what's happening here at mines we're allowing people to be heard we're showing them that kind of respect we don't have to respect what they're saying but respect their right to say it and we provide that platform because you know when you when you don't do that you're driving people to a platform that will embrace them and then it becomes an echo chamber and essentially it could become a a breeding ground for a cesspool of nefarious activities whether it's extremism or violence or conspiracy theories or what have you so it seems like there's an issue with many social media companies where they want to censor bad ideas and it seems to me that part of that is because the work involved in taking a person who's a neo-nazi or ku klux klan member and showing them the error of their ways allowing them to spread their nonsense and then slowly but surely introducing them to better ideas it's exhausting and they're not willing to do the work right exactly so what twitter does is like [ __ ] you get out of here what instagram does the same thing with all these people but the problem with that is then it goes further and further and further and further down where you're getting rid of people for just not agreeing with you so this is
empirical now so so daryl and i just wrote this paper called the censorship effect along with jesse morton um justin lane ron schultz and my brother jack and multiple phds like serious research has gone into this even the left out of outlets like vox are now admitting that de-platforming causes more severe radicalization this is being admitted across the board so the fact that big tech apps are not looking at this data and applying it to their policy it makes it makes you almost have to speculate that they're intentionally causing it i mean because they these are very smart people that work at big tech sites they know about data science they know the spread of information i don't think they're intentionally causing it i think first of all there's an ideology that is attached to all the big tech companies whether it's google or facebook or twitter you have to be what they think is woke right you have to you have to subscribe to a certain line of thinking and anybody that deviates from that line of thinking should be suppressed minimized or banned so how is that not intentional but it's not intentional meaning they don't tr they're not trying to radicalize people that's not what they're trying to do no but they i don't and they're just foolish in their approach i think some of their data science researchers do know yeah but they're not getting to the people that are the ceos the ceos have to virtue signal all the people that are executives have to virtue signal and they have to say we're doing our best to stop harmful talk and harm but but what they call harmful like a lot of it is like disagreeing with pharmaceutical companies which is just [ __ ] crazy like these are the lyingest liars that ever lied did you see zuck on lex's show yes i did what did you think you know it's hard it's hard because like that guy has an enormous responsibility he has he's the the head of this insanely huge platform that covers the entire planet earth and everything he says has to be measured it's like you ever see him drink water he drinks water like this
like a weird way of drinking water he doesn't [ __ ] drink the water he like sips it it touches his lips and then he's done he's like everything is like measured measured like i can't imagine trying to speak freely when you're the ceo of facebook i think it's almost like pointless to talk to him in that sort of circumstance well you know to your point about you know people doing this and and defending it and so forth and so on i mean i think the quote by upton sinclair comes into play i think he said something to the effect of it's difficult for for a man to understand something when his salary depends upon him not understanding yes yes yes yeah and if you live in that world if you live in that tech world and i have many friends who have you know their executives at these places that is just the [ __ ] doctrine you have to f like you have so many employees that they have these like radical ideas about what you're supposed to do and not supposed to do what you're supposed to platform and not platform and this idea of platforming people you know like i have people on this podcast all the time that i don't agree with at all and i have them on or i agree with them very little and i want to see what's going on in their head and i'll get that like you're platforming these people you're platforming a bad person like i don't think they're bad people i just don't agree with them and they have a right-wing ideology that i don't think should be suppressed i think you should try to pick it apart you cannot change someone's mind if you do not platform them it is impossible for someone with horrible ideology yes to change but i should say not just a right-wing idea there's there's a lot of people with left-wing ideologies that i think are ridiculous and i want to pick those apart too i want to have conversations with people and this idea that you're only supposed to have conversations with people that you absolutely agree with and that what you're doing is just broadcasting these ideas to better humanity like if you want a better humanity have [ __ ] conversations with people hey look you know this goes all the way back i mean
centuries even even back to bc as in before christ right i mean let's let's we can go back as far let's just say copernicus the astronomer who passed away in 1543. okay he's up until then the belief was that we are a geocentric model universe disinfo huh sorry no i was saying that it would have been called this info okay yeah exactly so uh even the catholic church endorsed that we are a geocentric uh model universe meaning that the earth is the center of the universe and everything revolves around us right and copernicus said no it was just another planet the sun is the center of the universe and everything revolves around the sun which makes it a heliocentric uh model and uh everybody scorned him ridiculed him a hundred years later galileo came along and built upon copernicus's theory and developed it even further and said yes you know we we are a heliocentric uh model and he got he got arrested arrested for heresy against the catholic church all right but guess what he was right he was right so you know sometimes you know we have to stand up to the masses not just join them because everybody else thinks this way and it's also the problem of the walled garden right there's a lot of people that are that get booted from the social media platforms whether it's twitter or facebook and then they look at that and they look at those people with further and further disdain and it separates them from whoever's there and we're not even just talking about radical people like one of the things that that really alerted me to how crazy the censorship [ __ ] was was brett weinstein had a a group that he put together called unity 2020. and the idea was to bring people that were from the left that were really reasonable and from the right that were really reasonable that weren't captured by corporate greed and to have them as an alternative candidate like instead of saying like you have to be a republican or you have to be a democrat let's like get reasonable left-wing and right-wing people that can agree on a lot of stuff and have them work together and maybe you have a candidate that's what like a
vice president and a president right-wing one yeah like it would be a great way to sort of like come together in the middle twitter banned the account twitter banned an alternative account like the i and there was nothing unreasonable about what they were saying it was all just conversations with people that are brilliant that happen to be left-wing and brilliant that happen to be right-wing let's get them together and see if we could lead this country in a better direction than having this polarization of right versus left where people get super tribal about it like this would be a great way to meet in the middle and twitter was like [ __ ] you and they banned the account they had such good intentions they still do but the idea that you can get banned for trying to come up with another political party are you saying that unity this system is infallible this right versus left system of blue and red is infallible that's so crazy we we are here because someone didn't like what was going on in europe in the 1700s and they took a chance on starting a new system a system of self-government that was a complete experiment and it had never been done before in the world and that created the united states and the idea that you the [ __ ] tech dorks are going to step in and say no this is dangerous thinking yeah they oh the battle tested first amendment hundreds of years of precedent legal precedent we like talk about a good content policy the first amendment i mean it doesn't apply they say it doesn't apply because this is a private they think that their lawyers are better at drafting healthy conversation than the first amendment and that's just not that's not true i think um you know there was a real concern in the early days of twitter and of social media where a lot of these people that were like outrageous right wing people were starting to get a lot of attention like milo yiannopoulos was a big one gavin mcginnis and a lot of these guys they were getting a lot of attention and the response from the left was like no no no no silence them like i i heard this one woman talking about her kid is listening to ben shapiro and i would love to get ben shapiro removed from all platforms like oh kara swisher i think i
think that's who she's a box reporter yeah and vox is interesting because they're like smart people but they're also you know they sort of embody this but their recent article i know jamie if you could you could find it um it's like does d platforming work out of vox and they they don't need to find that well i'm just saying no no no no but the reason i was so happy was because they're referencing similar studies that we reference in our paper they're starting to be forced to acknowledge that what the censorship is having serious negative consequences it polarizes this country and and the so what you were saying before about you know people their beliefs being reinforced after they get banned you know they're victims now now they believe the thing that they were ranting about it's called so in this in the literature it's it's called certainty level of certainty that's what's measured and there's it's it's clearly shown that certainty accelerates with d de-platforming based on whatever you were thinking before so isolation and certainty have um an overlap yeah so if you have an idea like especially with something as innocuous as unity 2020 or beneficial the idea of unity i mean come on it's like literally in the title that's what we're all hoping for we're uni united as a community the united states of america all these different ideas let's work together no [ __ ] you you're not a right wing you're not a left-wing you can't be a part of the problem because you're going to draw votes away from the people that we think it's imperative that they win so it it it changes the whole idea of what democracy is because they're kind of admitting that they have an influence on the way our elections go you know i mean and speaking of unity you then you got those people who are out protesting every day you know to help change and bring people together but a lot of them are the very ones who will not sit down and talk with the person that they're protesting against yes you know so how how badly do they really want unity well this happened to us precisely what's happened in
universities that's where it happened first i started seeing it i mean uh i guess it was like a couple of decades ago you started to see when someone was a controversial speaker they would come to a university and instead of someone debating that person or someone you know you listening to that person's ideas and picking them apart instead they were like pulling fire alarms and and shouting people down and screaming at the top of their head in the middle of the auditorium they're silencing people's ideas because they feel that their ideas are better which is exactly the opposite of what the founding fathers were trying to sort of manage when they came up with the first amendment i mean we're we're really trying to make this less of an emotional debate because i think the censorship and speech stuff is obviously very emotional you know people we're talking about hate speech we're talking about a lot of horrible stuff that hurts people personally and so you know the big tech strategy is oh you know we we care about people's feelings and we want to hide this information because it's offensive but but we need to remove the emotion and look at this empirically in terms of what is actually making society more healthy and what is actually preventing radicalization and violent extremism there's a difference between radicalization and violent extremism so if we can prove to big tech that d platform we want them to adopt a free speech policy i think that's the goal here we don't expect that facebook and google are going away it's not going to happen there's not going to be no myspace of facebook and google they are embedded in the infrastructure of the planet so they need to change their policy they need to start open sourcing more code and they need to start adopting more open policies because they when they ban it's all network topology and whack-a-mole you know you ban it from facebook and then it pops up over here and it's just this whole little interconnected matrix let me ask you this like for minds like say if someone starts like a neo-nazi group and they start posting on
minds and they start talking about the master race and eliminating jews and crazy nazi type [ __ ] what do you do oh i mean as long as it's not calling for violence or cr having true threats of violence then it will be go it will go under an nsfw filter so it will go under sort of uh you know it'll have a sensitive kind of click through so you'll be warned before you're so it's like one of those instagram videos like if you see a car accident or something like that there's instagram videos yeah you have to like say that you're willing to see this offensively exactly so so you know we have tags so that people we don't want anyone to see stuff they don't want to see so how about what if someone doesn't use the tags like what if something then it'll get reported and get tagged okay so it's like if someone starts posting nazi propaganda they just immediately like someone reports it yep yep and we also have a jury system so we're rolling out this system where the community can sort of help create consensus around tags on different content and you know if we make a mistake it can get appealed and the community actually votes not us and daryl your your take on this is like how do you think that a social media company like twitter something that's really huge can pivot from the model that they have now where they just ban people because you know that that points to them assuming that the majority of people out here are stupid and that these companies need to tell you what to rise right okay which to me is offensive it is you know yeah so i believe you know yes there's a lot of bad information out there and you know the more liberal you make your your platform allowing anybody to come in yeah you're going to have some bad actors sure but the way you address it is you you combat bad information by providing more good information yeah well that's the age-old idea so clarence thomas supreme court justice came out and he said that he thinks networks above a certain size should be considered common carriers yeah now common carriers so there's this whole debate about section 230 and you know whether networks have a right to take
things down it's pretty definitive that big social networks private companies do have the right to moderate that's a fact section 230 doesn't say you have to keep up everything but the common carrier like a phone company can't ban you for your views and so they're common carriers and that's that's that's an important distinction i think that's a rational suggestion from thomas that you know once you reach a certain size you cannot just be going and playing favorites yeah yeah i know jack dorsey had an idea of two versions of twitter a curated moderated version of twitter and then a wild west version and he was trying to pitch that and i think they shot him down but his idea was like we should have some twitter that's like got some sort of decentralized control where it's not up to the moderators to decide what's on it and people can just put on whatever they want yeah he launched a project called blue sky which is sort of a research initiative into decentralized social media kind of very much in our in our space before or after before he left and then he left like two days after he left there was this huge censorship issue where they said oh you can if it's a private image it can get taken down on twitter so like any private image of anybody and he well after they left after he left her they ramped up since oh yeah in a big way yeah and it seems like i mean it's it's a hard position to be in because you know it's like your baby he's this is a company he's been working on forever and he doesn't want to badmouth it but i would not be at all surprised if there were some internal wars happening about i mean there's a huge wired piece about internal free speech wars at in twitter management so it's a fact that it's not it's not um you know one single ideology in these companies there's definitely overwhelming ideology but i think that there is starting to be pushback so yeah there's intelligent people that realize the error of their ways yeah this this whole thing is going in a
negative direction and daryl how did you get involved with with bill and minds and like what what was your idea going into this well uh bill had contacted me after seeing me on some interview or reading about me or something to participate in it in an event he was originally going to have in new jersey then it got moved to philadelphia how long ago was this oh what five six years ago three i think now like 2019 that was the room yeah so 2019 um and i liked what he was talking about all different people from different political backgrounds you know stations in life whatever coming together and so i said yeah you know count me in and um and i went and did it and he had everybody there from all different walks of life we all got along we had different views we talked together we listened to each other's presentations and then we had an after party together where everybody just kind of let their hair down all that kind of stuff the only people who were not supportive were the protesters across the street uh some who of whom called me a white supremacist yeah i think uh melissa chen talked about this on your show a while back but basically antifa was like protesting the event you know we had all these big youtubers uh tim and uh you know people on the left right uh andy was there and he was there yeah and there were there were some progressions tim and andy is saying sorry annie no tim poole but we also had um some there were some leftists there as well and we really were did our best to make it as balanced as possible and and you know communists and capitalists and the protesters are like they don't can't be communicating with each other but the the antifa pro i mean it's like are they even real people it's like i guess they are i'm joking but it's like what are we doing when you're allowing these people to dictate they're so crazy and they're we're allowing them to
dictate what is and isn't said based on the threats of violence and lighting buildings on fire and [ __ ] they got us the platform from from the original theater that we were going to have it in so we had to move to philly how was it possible we sold out it was you know yeah fear yeah fear of repercussions um i do i do need to say one thing that so i i mentioned jesse uh morton who was one of the co-authors of the paper but so he actually a good friend of gerald's mind recently passed away um he's a former extremist and he is one you know leading in the de-radicalization space he he actually was an al-qaeda propaganda lead so he ran a propaganda site for al-qaeda he went to colombia he was doing this in new york city so he's from the u.s and you know daryl maybe you can expect oh i know who that gentleman is you did i was looking to have him on my podcast and uh he passed away yeah this was this was one of his last big projects daryl's actually out in portland right now uh i'm sure you guys know about majid right oh yeah who's one of the best examples of that like someone who was like radicalized like his his even the name of his podcast is radical his book's radical that's you know he was a guy who was deeply embedded in in this sort of islamic group and then went to jail and realized why i was in jail started reading started like and sort of examining this thought process and came out of it this like sort of brilliant mind to analyze like what is what what's the process where people get radicalized how does this happen and he could say it from he's first of all he's incredibly articulate so he can say it from this way he's coming from this place of i was this guy instead of like i know what's wrong with these people like i was these people i am evidence yes yes exactly and that's what you know and that's what mayans has in terms of doing the research you know we've done like a a polymath of 360 digging from all different genres psychologists uh former extremists patrols all kinds of people people like myself with boots on the ground dealing with with current extremists and things like that so all of that comes you know
into the conclusion of this paper unlike you know a lot of other papers they talk about you know why people do this others talk about uh the effect of what they've done some talk about the cause and the effect but we have the cause the effect and the solution it's just hard to get people to jump onto a new social media network that seems to be a real issue because human beings are creatures of of habit yes and you get if you're used to checking facebook oh let's see what grandma posted that you're used to doing that and this is your go-to thing and you only have so much time in the world it's hard to get someone to like deviate from that right there's no rush like we're not we're we're seeing huge growth just how many people do you have more than five million five million yeah wow and it's uh imagine's on there actually mines dot com slash magic courses yeah he just signed up uh and so you know it's all just long term like thinking where are we actually headed where are we going to be in 10 20 years like you don't and also it makes it harder to grow for what you said people are just stuck in their ways but also facebook and google use the dirtiest tricks in the book to grow i mean they literally latched their tentacles into everybody's phones grabbed all their contacts like you know followed you in your browser like every surveillance tactic they could get to grow explain that what do you mean so there are these sort of dark growth hacking tricks that a lot of apps will use to increase their user base and it's very basically like manipulative growth techniques to get people to give you give them more information than you otherwise would so say let's just say i'm a person who's never used facebook before and i just got a new phone and i said you know what i'm going to download facebook what happens oh you know they take you through their nice onboarding flow super slick ux because they have brilliant design what's ux user experience okay so you know you just keep pressing that pressing that big blue button yep yep yep yep oh yeah greeted terms yep and so
they just put it you know they make it very subtle what you're doing and there are benefits what is happening they're grabbing you're all of your contact book they're grabbing the all your phone number all your phone numbers so when you sign up for facebook it has access to all your entire yes if you give it to them if you give it to them you can say no twitter is doing this they won't you know stop it like you say no and then you know it shows up in your feed another prompt to to do it so are they getting the full contact with the names and everything it really depends it depends on the specific app and they all kind of have different uh you know kind of levels of invasiveness and how many people read the entire policy agreement how about zero right exactly who [ __ ] reading that no so like if i have you on my phone and i sign up for facebook does it get bill ottman plus your phone number and then they could target you yeah so they could just send you a text message or they could or they can sync up to your facebook that you have yeah because your app they're aware that we're communicating with each other because we both have each other's phone number well it's like you know you go on facebook and there's some sponsored ad there and it and it has a list of your friends that like this ad right i didn't know she liked that yeah well how how do they know she liked it and how do they know that that you might like it because so-and-so liked it yes let me ask you this because this is a big one that everybody always wants to know sometimes we're talking about stuff and then i'll i'll hear an ad see an ad for the thing we're talking about like jamie and i have talked about this many times where it's like there's no way this this random ad would have popped up just on its own it seems like it has to they have to be listening so i wish lex had asked zuck this question because this is a key question that honestly i'm not going to claim to know i mean we don't have access to their source code
so we do not know and they've denied it repeatedly um i think that the geo can trick you a lot of time into thinking that they're listening and you know different associations they're able to make in the back end but i i don't know the answer but i i know thousands of stories like what you're saying and i feel like they're just skirting around it and i would not at all be surprised but again if we can't see the source code we do not know so no one has definitively proven that they're actually listening to you well they are listening because you could say okay google how does it know that you're that you said okay google right or hey siri yeah so it's definitely listening for certain cues and we don't know the breadth of that so it could be that it picks up certain words that would indicate products that maybe you'd be interested in buying and they show you those ads i was looking in my google uh data history like a couple weeks ago and i had uh you know i have a bunch of different phones actually which i want to show you later some like new open source stuff um but show me now okay and it was just in a sec so the in my google data history it showed when i said certain words like that triggered it like there was all these different words that are sort of uh commands for uh assisting google assistant i think it's called and i had turned google assistant off and yet it still had it was like on june or on june 18th you said uh you know hello or whatever it was and it was just this whole history and i just deleted it all and like turned it all off and it's um they're definitely listening for kids so even if you say no you opt out yeah i turn it off yeah wow now as he points out you know a lot of them are closed source codes mimes is open source code you can get on you can see it and take our code and use it and we want you to it's available yeah and mine's transparency the way mines i've never actually used mines i know i have an account over there right but i got it but mine will get you set
up again we'll make it easy so you don't have to do anything it's all about making it easy because everyone's so busy it's just like but i don't go on any social media anymore i i post and then i get the [ __ ] out of there like you're an instagram boy yeah well i use twitter and facebook too but i don't use them very much i use twitter to see how crazy people are like how crazy are people today let me just look through my feed and see who's [ __ ] screaming at everybody what's going on in russia and who who believes this is all conspiracy and you know where where's the tinfoil hat brigade on this one and just to get a kind of a finger on the pulse yeah and then with instagram i just post and then when on facebook like facebook is nonsense for me i just i go there for just nonsense i go there for like videos and stuff and i'm not even remotely looking to engage with people so i don't i feel like the engagement with people from for a person with a profile as big as mine it's too much work it's like it's too hot like the interaction with people it's too toxic so many people are mad for whatever [ __ ] reason and it's a lot of bad faith conversations like i just for my own mental health i opt out i think of it as like extra distribution outlets so like someone like you you got a million things going on you it's just literally impossible to post to multiple places you don't have time is there an app that allows you to do to post something to like a shitload of places we have well we have import auto importing from youtube and twitter so you can pull your stuff in and just post on your own so we can maybe get that youtube as well so yeah you have a video aspect yeah yeah we do yeah we support video we support all multimedia blogs messenger do you host that video so what what are the implications like what if someone posts something illegal yeah that gets taken down okay yeah so we definitely are like u.s law first amendment base right yeah right um so just quickly to show you uh these phones so these are this is called a librum this is made in the u.s so this is like trying to get rid of conflict minerals and um it's very heavy it's it's a tank um does it suck it kind of sucks uh no no it's it they're they're a great team
honestly it's it's not not an easy project it's it's amazing for uh how hard of a project it is it does not suck it's it's it's it's a legitimate effort this is called things on the back these like switches yeah don't switch those because i don't know what they do yet i just got i just got it like two days ago um does it charge is it charging it's not yeah i'll have to charge it later okay that's the libra five yeah yeah security and privacy focus phone go you got to go to the usa one um because the i think the important made in the usa does matter because you know you talk a lot about the conflict mineral situation with the phones and i've seen you bring up other phones there was like the fair phone there was like some other attempts at it and um so this one website what is this one that one's called the pine phone you have heard of this one as well yeah so that's much cheaper uh that this one's like 2k really yeah why is it so expensive uh because it's not it's a beastly machine this is a computer right so you can run this on you can hook this up to a monitor this is a linux os so yeah it's got kill switches that's what those buttons are yeah physically disconnect the components and the cia is like yeah yeah go ahead that works yeah use our unique hardware hardware kill switches to physically disconnect wi-fi bluetooth cellular signal microphone and camera with kill switches yeah because a lot of it has to do with the chain of custody of these products because proprietary surveillance chips will get added to the phone in its life cycle throughout the factories globally so they're saying look we need to make sure to be able to commit to our customers that there's no sketchy chips on this thing that's feeding data to some some place we don't know about right and that was the big thing with huawei right they were one of the things about banning huawei in the united states was they had proven that some of their routers were allowing access from third parties
to access the information as it's distributed between the two parties so a third party could come in scoop up all the you know intellectual property and just use it and you know sometimes some of these companies they work both sides you know so the ones that that create the device to prevent something is the same company that creates the device to take something like like in the washington dc area for example um a few years back uh dc was being sued for the for the cameras the red light cameras you know you run a red light you get a ticket right well lockheed martin had created those cameras and they were shortening the length of the yellow light so so you get a bigger chance of running the red light all right so for every ticket that was written lockheed martin was getting a dollar and the rest would go to the dc police department right so so dirty but hewlett-packard you know the same ones who make the uh the radar gun that you know that you get caught on are the same ones who make the radar detector that we use so they get money from both ends you know well it's good business um this one is this is good the pi honestly it's all very early yeah sorry that it's not charged have you used any of these i just so um i just picked up these they're from you just use an iphone we got a [ __ ] problem no i do i do i'm i'm using i got this because the cool thing about the libra is that you can plug this into a monitor with a keyboard and this is a computer do you have a usbc charger you could maybe i have one you do what charger yeah yeah yeah if jamie wants to play if you can he can plug this i'd like to see what that thing's all about it's only because one yes perfect the other um thing is uh do you know adam curry right i've seen yeah yeah adam curry who is the original podfather he's like he is literally the man who created the original podcast his uh under your leg there's uh you're wrapped up though you're wrapped up yeah um there is a see it under the table oh yeah yes it's connect actually
connected to the table yeah um adam has this no agenda podcast and they have a no agenda phone and it's essentially a de-googled android phone yeah that removes all of the tracing stuff all the stuff where you know but you can't use navigation on it you can't there's a lot of [ __ ] you can't use is it based on graphene i do not know i think it is jamie check out no agenda okay sorry um this thing does this get does this have this is not really usable like it's it's not really replaceable for your for your standard this is not android based so pine and neither is pine phone actually um so this is no agenda phone small batch artisan secure private so this is is it open source go to the footer go all the way down to the footer so typically scroll up it looks like it's not are they publishing their code keep going up it's what is graphene it's graphene that's good good all right great yeah so this os is essentially a raw aosp android open source project some custom bits if you choose a phone that is supported directly by lineage and not some random developer on xda it is as secure as the g variant if you choose to build i don't know what they're saying here do you know what they're saying here all right so graphene os is the most secure option endorsed by edward snowden entirely funded by donations and a guy what does that mean how [ __ ] random is that a guy the os is updated and patched more often than g does with every conceivable method of hardening possible the only downside is casual adapters this is a relatively limited compatibility layer for apps and access services similar to those provided by gg must be google so would it be less effective it would if it was uh entirely funded by by donations and a gal yeah or are they it says so edward snowden uh speaks on at the bottom it says that software is equally important the uh ios and android operating systems that run on nearly every smartphone conceal unaccountable uncountable numbers of programming flaws known as security vulnerabilities that
means common apps like imessage or web browsers become dangerous you can be hacked um so he uses the graphene network uh is his base operating system i think that's a legit project for sure graphene seems like a stripped-down version of android which google created android so there's a lot of stuff that you can't use right like like navigation that's a big one for me yeah you can no i think you can get probably like open street maps and have some some very simple [ __ ] you got a friend in the country you're not gonna find them yeah i mean look it comes down to like are people willing what sacrifices are people willing to to make and can we have a reasonable conversation with these companies to find a middle ground well the key would be then to have uh that graphene phone right with kill switches so you use the navigation when you need it then kill it yeah i found out that like find my iphone doesn't that work even if your phone is off yeah how uh androids don't do that no i don't think so you think android's better well i'll tell you i'll tell you a quick experience right okay um i was flying with won't name the airlines and um i got off the plane went to turn on my phone it wasn't there so i tried to get back on the plane because i figured fell down the seat oh you can't go back you know get back on the plane sir what seat were you in we'll go look for your phone give them the seat number they come back five minutes later we check between the seats under the seat in the pocket no phone you know call customer service or email customer service and give them a description and they'll look for it for 30 days so go through all that and every couple days they would uh contact me now i called verizon and you know has my phone you know you track my phone well we can't track your phone if it's turned off so they told me i have an android okay so i kept calling to see if anybody used it right and i kept calling my phone and stuff nothing so every couple days they know they'll let me know we're looking
for your phone we're looking we haven't found anything yet and then in 30 days they will stop uh the search but if anybody turns it in whatever they'll let me know so on the 40th day where they gave me a an email on the 30th day saying um you know we're sorry we had not located your lost item however if anybody turns in and we'll let you know on the 40th day i got an email from them saying your lost item has been found uh it's in the loft now i uh i um i left it in the seat in dc when i was flying somewhere and um they found the phone um and it's in the lofts and found at the houston airport now that plane flies around the country 10 times a day gets cleaned 10 times a day every time people d board right and so people were cleaning that plane for 40 days and nobody found that phone it was found deep in between the seats it fall off my hip right so the more of the story is you know the best clean planes leave out of houston [Laughter] so you couldn't find it like the way you find an iphone so iphones apparently there's like some signal just being sent yeah so that alone is a little bit of a red flag right yeah i mean apple is is they try to have this privacy argument and it's so shocking to me that they try to push that like oh you know we're not going to let the fbi in like trust us and look apple makes beautiful products everybody knows that they're the best i i use stripped android and i'm going to start using this because i can this can be my computer as well so i'll but i'll you know i'll use both but i i'm i'm playing with all the options right now but like i like i like to use linux as my desktop can i see what you use um that's your phone this is this is my phone this this is a well this is just android that's just regular android this is just right it's not even stripped this is an unknown stripper so
what a privacy guy is having a phone that's tracking him everywhere he goes i have dude ever we're all in the midst of this world i have fought look at me yeah i mean come on you got to give me credit for having five different phones do you have different phones because you have to check how mines is on different operating systems i'm not doing the i mean i'm not doing all of our qa but like i have linux devices windows devices apple devices i definitely i use it all so you use an android as your main phone yes why do you do that i do that because android is at least open source in its base function so i will as over apple i will choose android because like we see with graphene you can fork android and create a stripped-down version now it is absolutely imperative i need to get a graphene pure graphene version that's on my list of things to do i've got you know there's a clear os here which is uh that's uh what is clear os that's another open source android does this ooh that's pretty yeah does this have uh some sort of gps system i think it does yeah you want to open that so i can check it out i mean so what what people are concerned with is obviously someone being able to access their information someone tracking them i think people are concerned and like all right so look at me for an example like i'm sort of in this privacy world but i'm also not like a privacy i'm i'm a privacy maximalist for what i want to be private i'm not saying like i'm never going to use any big tech app ever it's just an irrational impossible mission i've driven myself crazy like thinking that i should do that you have to go off the grid yeah you gotta go like i'm gonna be a human okay and i'm gonna explore all the different options and hopefully transition so like i have gotten rid of most i don't use big tech nearly as much as i used to probably like 10 of what i used to i deleted most
of my accounts i'll check in sometimes because i like to see what's going on and to understand the market but you know i it's i'm not gonna i need to get around two with maps and so i'm gonna as soon as we have an alternative i will do it i'll be the first one in line when someone can put something i'm trying to get all these options in front of me but it seems like operating systems and applications there the trend is for them to get more intrusive right like tick tock is supposedly they back engineered it and said is the absolute worst software that they've ever examined in terms of like violating your privacy yeah let me uh let me just go through also on my actual phone i'll just name a few apps which i think are a huge part of like privacy future because like it's not all about you know minds is a part of a bigger network it's like the the ultimate place where things are going is not there's not gonna be some new replacement that for google that's centralized it's gonna be protocols that apps are all interoperating on so like breyer is this amazing app that's currently going viral in ukraine um and julian assange actually posted about this app from prison he was able to communicate to his people so briar is fully decentralized it runs over torr and it can even run offline so you can i we could chat over bluetooth i could be in a burning building and you're across the street in ukraine we're getting bombed internet is down and we're chatting like unbelievable match networking technology briar like b-r-i-a-r yeah so it's it's been a long time coming for them we're looking at integrating with the bramble protocol which is kind of the base protocol of briar but you know there are a handful of fully decentralized options also secure scuttlebutt and and and some others but it's it's really cool i i recommend checking it out and i think that off-grid technology that's not reliant on internet service providers is just i mean that's crazy the fact that that's even possible to to chat with no internet yeah that's crazy yeah so and
then you know and sometimes you know when you go to a different country with your phone you know you are you have to be compliant with that country's internet laws i mean they can get into your phone where maybe the u.s can't right do you think like in terms of privacy would you recommend google or apple because like that that's uh that question is not a question really doesn't matter but isn't doesn't apple at least give you the option to block advertisers from being access access your information block cross-platform or cross-application yes sharing of data they've been locking down their app store which has taken like billions of dollars away from google and facebook advertising because they don't allow apps to do what they used to be able to do right isn't that good that is good so apple would be a better choice i don't know no i think that yes that is a good thing in sort of cost benefit so but apple is the mother of closed systems i mean steve jobs literally said proprietary it's like we have a closed walled garden yes and that was his whole thing like we do not want anyone seeing what we're doing hyper competitive apple does very you know relatively little open source compared to a lot of other companies i remember the days of clones where you could buy a fake apple machine that runs mac os and they shut them all down because you could buy like a bomber machine that has like crazy power and gigantic hard drives and like multiple hard drives like way more potent than anything that apple was selling like in the 90s and they banned all that stuff is that for gaming and stuff or yeah for gaming and just for people who do like video editing and just people that wanted like some crazy ultra hyped up machine and it would still run the ios and this was the early ios you know this was before os x 10 which is the unix-based uh operating system that was back when you know apple's operating system was a little janky it was kind of sketchy crash a lot you know no multi no preemptive multitasking it was like no memory protection it would crash like people
were like really devoted to it but that [ __ ] would crash a lot until osx came along do you feel like you're at all willing to sacrifice any convenience in your technology yes yeah i'm willing to sacrifice some what like what would be something that you would be willing that's a good question i ask myself that all the time because uh i'm [ __ ] sure the government's paying attention to my phone you know so it's like uh what you know what am i willing to sacrifice you know right now i just i treat all interactions as if the government's watching that's what i do yeah like there's a there's an android app store called f droid yeah which is you know like a non-google play app store so you can actually get apps off of google play on ios you can only get apps on the on the app store but uh how do you know if you go to this uh f store is that what it's called after right f droid how do you know if you go to this f droid whether or not this is spyware oh i mean well how do you there's spyware all half the apps on 90 of the apps on google play or spyware really yes i mean every app you install is like infecting your system most of them because most apps are proprietary but google is worse for that i mean every app is different every app has different permissions that they're giving and you know different security implications so i don't think that there's a i think that the people at f droid and in the open source community as a general trend just care about these things more so they're not gonna you know but there still can be malicious stuff in the open source realm um but you know you gotta kind of understand the scene and that's a lot of work it is a lot of work but understanding the scene do you but do you research the food that you eat well it's pretty simple is it yeah it's a pretty big education i think there's a lot of people who don't who don't know yes but i've already had that education right so it's the same way with tech yeah it's not sure there's a learning curve but it seems like people are
making new things like they're not really making new food real food like real food has kind of been established yeah that's not food it's terrible you had one darryl have you had one i have not i've seen i've seen them but i've not had one have you no really yeah i know i actually i have to lie i did it's a lie rather i did um we were we did a show once at stubbs and my friend ck brought a bunch of burgers from a bunch of different places and some of them were plant-based so i took a bite and just like like a bland burger yeah i actually switched from uh vegan yeah to what i was vegan for like four years switch back um switched back yeah i switched back i was a mediator yeah yeah well my wife actually uh so has a uh autoimmune issue uh not to overshare but uh so she when we were vegan together have you heard of weston price he's a really famous uh nutritionist and uh has this diet very like heavy into organ meats and um yeah fermented foods and of probiotics and stuff and so she was being told by her doctor that you have to go on this drug called remicade every six weeks iv for the rest of your life what is it for it's for crohn's okay and she was like what life like every six weeks you're kidding me and so she was just like no i'm not i'm okay so she switched her diet so she switched her diet and is in remission really and like in her diet consists of what now um it's pretty much uh i mean if you look up western price but you know meats fermented foods just avoiding bread salmon yeah yeah yeah and she so there's been studies done on cabbage juice this is a big thing for people with ulcers there have actually been studies that hardcore cabbage juice for like six weeks can reverse ulcers and there have been studies on this and her her regular
gastro doctor didn't even know about that and that she credits a huge transformation from the cabbage juice regimen anyway not to get go off and well just we are on a tangent but your own personal experience like what was the difference between going from vegan to eating meat again i mean i respect vegans i really do especially the ones who aren't annoying um the ones there's like five of them there are there are five of them you know there's this guy uh ed uh earthling ed who's he's very honest and not preachy and has good information but anyway like i feel i feel better i love eggs and meat and all that stuff but and i i do feel like healthier but i think i was healthy vegan and you can be healthy vegan and i wouldn't be surprised if in a thousand years humans are not eating nearly as much meat well why did you decide to go back because i wanted to you know i didn't need that much of a reason you know doing it with my family uh and also it's just you know i want i'm i'm i'm not ideological about stuff i i don't want to get stuck in ideology about food or whatever this is why i wanted you to talk about this because this is exactly the kind of conversation that some people would like to suppress because there are people that say that eating meat is bad for the environment and i've had a bunch of people on to try to discuss that pro and khan the latest is what is diane's last name is rob wolf and diana rogers they wrote a book called sacred cow we were talking about regenerative farming with them but there are people that think that those conversations should be suppressed and that when you have these kind of conversations they should be flagged you should be shadow banned there's a lot of people that promote the carnivore diet on instagram that find themselves shadow band and they have like real issues with paul saladino carnivore md i think they took as a countdown has miss info i don't know what the [ __ ] excuse was i think some wacky vegan activist who works for the company can just decide that they're
going to take your account down i think there's a certain amount of control that the people that work there have where it's very subjective so imagine so facebook spends tens of billions on moderation and they or they have and so our vision imagine if rather than tens of thousands of censors who are just going like down down down take it down hate speech misinformation conspiracy theory what if you had tens of thousands of mental health professionals and positive intervention people and just like people engaging in dialogue who can provide mental health resources to users who need it to share information like i'm not saying you need no moderation you definitely do need a certain level but that's so much money and human energy i mean you've seen the ptsd studies of these content moderators at facebook who are these people get depressed they're suicidal because if you're seeing al qaeda videos all day yeah they're just watching crazy stuff and that's that's that's a real thing but that you know is unavoidable to a certain degree but i mean to to bring in experts in dialogue to engage imagine if facebook spent billions of dollars on that mental health resources for the community would that be effective well yeah because i mean look at it this way say 25 30 years ago uh insurance companies were not paying for acupuncture oh that's you know nonsense is you know what it called a placebo or something right now they do and now they see value in it well chinese people have been using that for 2 000 years would they still be using it 2000 years later if it wasn't working so now now we're accepting you know some eastern culture now we're you know when our doctor does not give us what we uh hope will cure us for for our cancer our diabetes or whatever we go the holistic route and we found some some pretty
amazing results and that's what you know minds is doing the holistic uh you know um approach by giving everybody a platform to to to to share their information like you just shared about the cabbage juice you know somebody hears this podcast and goes out and tries cabbage juice and it clears up their wife's ailment or something like that and this is a good subject to talk about now because we just got through the pandemic and that was one of the things that was suppressed was information about methods of treating covid i mean there was it was a giant issue where if you talked about whether it was hydroxychloroquine or ivermectin or whatever you would talk about even vitamins talking about like the difference between the coveted results of people that were vitamin d insufficient versus people that had sufficient levels it's a giant difference but if you talked about that you would get in trouble for disinformation or misinformation and you would get either shadow banned or outrightly banned i mean there were people that were banned from social networks for suggesting that people who are vaccinated can still spread covet that turns out to be an absolute fact now but if you said that eight months ago nine months ago instead of having this conversation and having medical experts debate it and people that understand it and don't understand it so ask questions and people who are following the the standard narrative uh they express themselves and then people that have alternative ideas express themselves and we find out what's right and what's wrong somebody expressed that uh it could be treated with bleach right wasn't that trump yeah they said like yeah like i mean there should be warnings and you know but imagine if rather than a fact check warning like you know these three think tanks said that this is false it what what if you could actually see a visualization of the debate that showed both sides and gave you like a probability score or something on the piece of content as opposed to saying like black or white well who checks the fact checkers yes that's the problem there's a lot of fact checkers that are just full of [ __ ] like there's a lot of
things that are like mostly true or mostly false and you look into it and you're like [ __ ] you this is not mostly false you guys are just it's either false or true it can't be mostly it's like it's like you know multiple statements somebody's being sort of pregnant i mean you're pregnant or not you know but if someone is if there's multiple statements about an issue and some of them are correct and some are not then it would be like mostly true we'll take a piece of covet you know content like you were you were talking about and you know there's going to be studies on one side and another what do you do on minds for that stuff well we're we're building out a sort of citation tool to kind of show the citations on both sides of various arguments and you know have more crowdsourced this really gets into the realm of decentralized identity and where we're moving in terms of like reputation and credibility on the internet and like right now you've got all these different logins what we were talking about where things are going with with crypto and with like the web standards there's really we're moving towards a place where you have these credentials associated with your core identity which can be generated from like a crypto wallet or something like that and you'll have all these badges that you're earning everywhere you go and you can decide to disclose those or not disclose those like nfts i mean right now i'm confused what are you earning badges for can we see the interference would you pull up mine so we can see the interface yeah so um ultimately credibility on the internet it's like how do you measure that how do you trust users so it's like if if i say oh bill is a very good guy he says a lot of true things he's very reasonable so you get a badge for that there could be any infinite number of you know badges that you could potentially earn but like you could be trusted by say someone in martial arts trusts you and they give they give you a signal of trust then that would add to your credibility
in martial arts in your decentralized identity on the internet which would be interoperable between social networks so that there's sort of this this webinar look i got a page you got a page who put my picture up your youtube your youtube you took over the account you asked me for the the creds i know i mean i'm just saying who who did that picture some fan or something i don't know my picture there someone fan can just put my picture up there i don't know someone i mean people create fan pages okay so like in 2020 i posted something it says and it got 31 000 views wow look at that hooberman that episode's down okay so what is making these things post uh i don't know that they must have just someone must have just posted them well how can they post it under my name just linked from youtube because these are just youtube posts right but how were they linked in my name i didn't do that um i i don't know maybe i have a 118 000 subscribers dude you probably have a bunch of tokens too oh i have tokens so you should we'll we'll figure it out we'll figure it out but that's so this is two years ago this is august 13th so this is during the pandemic i 100 didn't post that okay so someone is posting that in my name did my account get hacked imagine my account at mines got hacked and some dude is just posting i mean i sent you the password do you change it i don't know we'll we'll figure it out okay we'll figure it out but someone's posting as me and i have a hundred and eighteen thousand subscribers i should probably get on that yeah so you said that it was i think it was broken i think it was connected i think it was connected it was pulling in your youtube and you know something might have gotten all right we'll fix it [ __ ] just doesn't seem good jamie it's not the there's nothing on it it's just youtube there's a link to your youtube but some of them are missing some of the youtubers that's because they're missing youtube we don't have everything up on youtube right oh that's right when we
changed over to spotify we removed some of the stuff where you know spotify only allows us to keep a hundred uh full length episodes on uh youtube at a time because most of it has to be you know they're trying to channel here go to um go to mines.com change so this is um this is this is the stuff that you guys are doing this is change minds yeah this is the link to the paper and this is the censorship effect yeah so and so when vox and who are like very strongly left-leaning when they have a piece that they write saying that there there are harmful effects of censorship that actually pushes people towards more radical ideas like what are what are they suggesting are they suggesting that places like social media sites like twitter back off of censorship and maybe choose an alternative they're not going that far but i think it's a step in the right direction they also talk about the the reach you know a lot of their question is what is the reach of content like alex jones for instance we did a empirical analysis of his reach after he got banned and it actually went up um globally so in terms of all of the the um right but use on top right there wouldn't it keep going up if he wasn't banned because everybody goes up like my [ __ ] goes up every month right so when you say his went up does that mean it went up at a proportion level that it is same as it would if he stayed on twitter or did it go up just based on the baseline of when he got banned yeah i mean that's sort of an impossible thing to know because you can't really know what you can follow yeah you can track the trend i mean i think that what vox is saying is it depends if you like you know alex has a platform so he's he was going to grow a huge kind of either in either direction i would imagine but small people when they get banned you know that kind of gets buried you know no one's no one's complaining when some random person posting a covid uh post gets banned from twitter they're just lost right there's millions of people who just get lost from that and so
you know anyway in the in the analysis we saw the total views of alex's content went up significantly but i think that it's the you know it's called the streisand effect but it's also there's variation on that and i think it is definitely censorship also works like in an isolated system so if you're on google or facebook like or twitter like yeah you can silence certain words or con or topics but you when you're thinking of the internet as a whole then um you know the the total reach is not necessarily going down because and we need to start thinking about the internet as a whole not just isolated networks like you can't claim that censorship of coven miss info worked when you just banned it from google and it just went up like what about the global numbers that's what we need to be looking at so when you guys got together how long have you guys been working together well four years yeah and and you know and when i first you know joined on uh he was just approaching two million members and now it's over five million so it is growing oh yeah minds is growing it's like well hopefully you get a lot more after this one um but it's the the difference between that and facebook like what is facebook oh god billions and twitter hundreds of millions if not billions i don't right yeah probably close yeah i don't know so there's there's a giant difference in terms of the user yes yeah but here's the here's the crazy thing like in you can actually get more reach on mines than facebook or twitter if you're a small creator because small creators like getting out of the void on social is so hard and we have this reward mechanism where you can earn tokens and boost your content and you know we we also just wrote out this build your algorithm feature where you can actually opt in to see people who are different from you or similar for you from for you or you can opt in to increase the level of tolerance that you have to ideas that
you disagree with how do you adjust that um there's there's these uh toggles so if like say if you're a vegan and you're like maybe you know you're starting to feel a little sick like maybe we should pay attention to some of these carnivore people yeah you could let a little of that in yes yes exactly open up your recommendations to not just stuff that's going to bring you down your own echo chamber but expand it now daryl i want to talk to you about your personal experience on mines with this uh with what you're what you do what you're known for have you had interactions with people on minds that have been favorable that if you've kind of pushed people into a i've had yeah i've had a few and i've had you know my share of detractors so people think you know what i'm doing is totally wrong and don't get me or whatever but yeah i've had it i've had interactions with some people when so when you say like people said it's totally wrong like what what what kind of criticisms do they have for that uh depends upon where they're coming from um some people think it's not my job to teach white people how to treat us us mean black people uh others think it's ridiculous to sit down with a white supremacist why you know why why would you waste your time uh you know those people can't change do you point to your success ratio because it's pretty important oh yeah i point to that you know but a lot of people you know they don't see that because they don't they would not tolerate the time to sit down right and have somebody tell them some nonsense that jews are the childs of the devil or you know some crazy yeah things like that uh i will sit and listen to that and i will put up with it uh because in order for me to uh speak speak my mind i have to listen to somebody else's yes right so they're not willing to to put in that time i am yeah and so when how do you have the time to do this this is what i do you know in between my music gigs yeah but i mean like that's what kind of commitment are you talking
about like how much time do you spend doing this a lot i mean it's my life now how many like email dialogues oh god i get i get emails all the time i get emails from people i don't even know i even get emails from people who've seen me on podcasts or on tv shows these are white supremacist clans and whatever and say you know you made some sense in it would you like my rope i've even gotten robes in the mail from people i don't even know yes yeah i think there's a lot of sad people that just need a group of people to belong to and they'll decide that what these people are saying makes sense because at least they'll be a part of it let me explain something to you one's percep as you already know one's perception is one's reality okay you cannot change anybody's reality if you try to change their reality you're going to get pushback because they only know what they know whether it's real or not it's their reality so what you want to do is you want to offer them a better alternative perception and if they resonate with your perception then they will change their own reality because their perception becomes their reality just a quick example let's say you got a seven or eight year old brother right and he goes to a magic show with his buddies and he comes back and tells you joe you know this magician he asked for a female volunteer and 50 women raised their hand he picked up this one come up on stage he told her to climb into this long box and stick her feet out that hole and put her head out this hole and then he closed the lid told her to wiggle her feet and she kicked her legs and they took a chainsaw and went and cut that box in half he cut that woman in half and you're like uh it didn't really happen like that yes it did i was there you weren't even there i saw it with my own eyes you are challenging his reality he knows what he saw and that magician cut that woman in half and then to make it even more uh obvious to you he tells you that the magician after you cut the box in half took the half with the legs sticking out and moved it over here stays right and the half with the head over here to stage left and then he went over there and
talked to the head of the woman and she talked back to him and then he brought the two halves back together opened the box and i'll pop the woman full form no blood he cut her in half and he put it back together you're saying it was just an illusion no it wasn't i saw with my own eyes i was there you weren't even there so again you're attacking his reality he's going to resist he's going to fight you all right so what you do is you offer him a better perception you say hey listen i hear what you're saying but could it be possible that just maybe out of those 50 women that raised their hands and he picked one maybe she works for him maybe he planted her in the audience she knows the trick she travels to every show around the country with them and when she gets in the box there's a pair of mannequin legs laying on the floor of the box that are wearing the same stockings and same shoes that she has on she picks him up shows him out the hole when he says move your feet she shakes those things and then she brings her own legs up under her chest so her whole body is on that half of the box so the saw doesn't even touch her and obviously when he separates the two halves the feet are over there now she can't move them so he has to distract your attention by going over here so you're not looking at those feet and he's talking to the head and she's talking back of course when he brings them back together she pulls the dummy legs leaves them on the floor of the box she climbs out and then your brother says hmm you know i guess that would be the only way that would work you've offered him a better perception and that perception then becomes his reality so don't attack somebody's reality regardless of what it is even if you know it to be false give them a better perception and allow them to resonate with it because it's always better when somebody comes comes to the conclusion i've been wrong maybe this is something i need to think about yeah this will work it's a perfect example of not silencing people's ideas but giving them better ideas and this is what the answer to censorship has been exactly and uh you know so daryl always talks
about how much he listens when he starts a dialogue and doesn't even try to you know push ideas at the people that he's engaging with different extremists or whatnot would you agree with that statement absolutely and let me just give you an example of that okay so i'm interviewing a clan leader white supremacist right and i ask you know how can you hate me you don't even know me you know all you see is this come in my room five minutes ago and and you're you've already determined you know whatever you determine well mr davis you know black people are prone to crime and that is evidenced by the fact that there are more blacks in prison than white people now i'm just sitting here listening to this guy he's calling me a criminal and um but he's right he's a hundred percent right the data and the uh statistics show that there are more blacks in prison than white people so that feeds what he already thinks he knows the data right but he does not go to find out why does that data show that uh he doesn't realize there may be an imbalance in our judicial system that send black people to prison for longer periods of time than white people who've committed the same crime all right so i just listen to him right because when he walks in that room and he sees me i'm the enemy his wall goes up his ears are like this you know he's ready to defend whatever his stance is so i'm just listening and then he goes and say you know black people are inherently lazy they always have their hand out for a freebie they're always trying to scam the government welfare programs and all that kind of stuff so now he's caught he's called me a criminal now he's calling me lazy and i'm just sitting here listening i'm not pushing back and then he says uh and black people are born with smaller brains and the larger the brain the more capacity for intelligence the smaller the brain the lower the iq so now i'm being called stupid now it's what he says that this is evidenced by the
fact that every year the data shows that black high school students consistently scored lower on the sats than not white kids do again he's 100 correct that does show that but he doesn't realize why all right where do most black kids in this country go to school in the inner city where the most white kids go to school in the suburbs it is a fact suburban schools are better funded they have better facilities better teachers etc i will guarantee you white kids who go to school in the inner city can score just as low as those black kids if not some lower black kids who go to school in the suburbs can score just as high as the white kids if not higher it has absolutely nothing to do with the color of this of the student's skin or the size of the student's brain but has everything to do with the educational system in which that child is enrolled but of course he won't go to research that because the data already supports what he already believes that i'm inferior so now he's called me all these things i've already done my research on him i know this guy sitting across from me just barely made it out of high school i have a college degree so do i throw that in his face no but because i sat there and listened to him that wall is coming down because you cannot impart information to somebody when the wall is up it's like hitting a brick wall you want that wall to come down and then the ears open up so now he's exhausted all his vitriol and now he's wondering like how come this black person isn't pushing up against me like most of them do and he's curious as to what i think about what he just said so now the wall is down and he feels compelled to reciprocate because i sat there and listened to him insult me so now it's my turn i could go on the offense and say no you are the one who's a criminal you're the one hanging black men from trees and dragging them behind pickup trucks and bombing their churches and i would be 100 correct because the clan has over 100 year history of doing that but if i did that that wall would go right back up so i don't want that to happen i want to keep the wall down and let him hear what i'm saying so i said you know so rather than go on the
offense i go on the defense and i say listen i hear what you're saying however i don't have a criminal record and i'm as black as anybody you've ever seen so i don't have a criminal record um i've never been on welfare as far as my brain size goes i've never measured the size of my brain but i'm sure it's the same size as anybody else's and as far as my s.a.t scores go they got me into college now i already know that he doesn't have a college degree i do does it make me a better person than him no but it gives me a better experience right so i let him know this he goes home and he thinks just like we all do at the end of the day we reflect on what we did during the day he thinks man i just had a three hour conversation with a black guy you know we didn't come to blows and what that daryl guy said it makes sense oh but he's black but what he said was true but he's black so they're having a cognitive dissonance yeah right and they struggle with that for a while and then they have that dilemma i gotta make my mind what am i gonna do so the the dilemma is do i disregard whatever color he is and believe the truth because i know it to be true and change my ideological direction or do i consider the color of his skin and continue living a lie in most cases people will follow the truth but then there will be those who don't want to give up the power or the notoriety or whatever and they will follow the lie well the way you're doing it is brilliant because you're you're doing it so patiently and contrary to the way most people handle arguments most people handle arguments by trying to shut down the other person's argument and [ __ ] all over them instead of trying to what you're saying offer an alternative perspective which is really probably the only way to get people to think about things in a different light and joe that comes from the fact that i've done a lot of travel okay i've been exposed to people from all over the world and we all got along we all got along we told the story on the podcast the first time you hear about not even understanding racist exactly until you were a child because
you grew up overseas right exactly and we got so i saw that so i saw something that they have not seen right and that's why i want to share that with them vicariously to let them know no it's you know the whole every white person uh in the world is not like every white person in this country every black person in the world not every black person in this country you know there are white people over in france like in the 1940s and 50s a lot of black americans moved to france to live some even gave up their u.s citizenship because the french people were treating them as equals they didn't see color you know and those french people were a lot more white than the white people here in this country who might be missing something else so you know people need to see in fact my favorite quote of all time is by mark twain or otherwise known as samuel clemens it's called the travel quote and mark twain said quote unquote travel is fatal to prejudice bigotry and narrow-mindedness and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts broad wholesome charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime that guy was so good wasn't he he had so many great quotes exactly isolation and so sam harris actually did a study that we talked about in the in the paper about he did a neuro imaging study of people being exposed to political beliefs different from their own and actually looked at people's brains when they were going through this experience and they actually talked about this thing called the backfire effect which is sort of what you're talking about when the wall's up and so they sort of detected that interestingly um and i i forget the exact name of the study but it's it's it's in the footnotes so i think the patience is it that it's long term you're not changing someone's mind like in five minutes of you know chattering on in comment sections or you know yelling at someone at the dinner table like that that you barely know like daryl knows how to create
long-term relationships and not be like thirsty for them to change their mind like it's just by like look we're here we're we're hanging out whether it's a network or you know offline or online network doesn't really matter and so i think the backfire effect that that sam found and that we're sort of talking about with walls going up is very real and that's why it has to be long term you know but daryl i'm just thinking while i'm listening here like these conversations that you've had with these white supremacists and neo-nazis how amazing would it be if that was a podcast know what i'm saying if you sat down with those people from the beginning from first meeting them and see that conversation play out that would be very related i've got some of that yeah where where i've sat down with some of these people while they were still in and now i'm sitting down with them now that they're out some of them even come on on my lecture tours with me and stand on stage with me and speak out against their former do you have videos of these conversations yeah some of them yeah god are they online uh some of them i think are but if not i can send you some i think those videos would be a great tool for someone that's maybe trapped but like at least partially open-minded where they have this like view of things like maybe i'm incorrect about this maybe i need to reevaluate yeah you know like that but as a podcast that would be brilliant i mean that's a great idea to have someone from the jump like walk in a kkk member and have this conversation where they sit down with you over hours and hours and present all these articles about crime and brain size all this [ __ ] and have you just tell them your perspective and see the wheels start turning because i think sometimes a lot of these people they're only interacting with people that think like them right exactly now i'll give you a crazy ass example of something all right unbelievable right so this this exalted cyclops which means a district leader in the class yeah okay so he's in my car with me right
wagons wizards yeah exalted cyclops so he's him he's in the passenger seat i'm driving and we got on the topic of crime and stuff and he was talking about you know black on black crime and how violent we were and all that kind of stuff and he said you know um black people have a gene within them that makes them violent now i'm driving he's over here i said you know what are you talking about he says well look at all the carjackings and uh and drive-bys in southeast he was referring to southeast washington dc which is predominantly black with some whites that live there it was predominantly black very high crime written i said okay i said but you know you're not considering the the demographics that's what lives there i said what about all the crime in bangor maine white people that's what lives there right i said he goes no no no that had nothing to do with it you know you all are born with that gene and um i said look at me i said i have never i'm as black as anybody you know i have never committed a drive-by or a carjacking how do you explain that this man didn't even think about it he didn't hesitate one sec he goes your gene is late and hasn't come out yet it almost came out then but you know but uh i mean he had an answer for everything and i was you know stupefied like he's over here all smuggling you know you got nothing to say and so i thought about it well if i gave him some you know phd knowledge or whatever it wouldn't phase him so i had to go to where he was i said well you know we all know that every white person has a gene in them that can make them a serial killer and he says how do you figure i said well name me three black serial killers he couldn't do it i said i'm gonna name you one i named one for him i said i said here's one just give me two he couldn't do it i said charles manson jeffrey dahmer henry lee lucas john wayne gacy uh ted bundy albert desalvo the boston strangler david berkowitz son of sam on and on yeah i said they're all white i said son you are a serial killer he goes he goes daryl i never killed anybody i
said you're genius lady hasn't come out yet ah he goes well that's stupid and i said well duh i said yeah it is stupid for me to say that about you but it's no more stupid for me to say that about you than what you said about me yeah and he got very very quiet but you see his wheels yeah and then he changed the subject and within five months he quit the clan and his road was the first robe i got yeah based on that stupid conversation i remember that conversation you relaying on the podcast yeah i had a conversation on a podcast many years ago where a guy actually did bring up that gene thing with with oh it's common yeah and he he said it and i did i didn't know the guy before i had him on and while i was having him on i was realizing like a lot of the [ __ ] that this guy's saying is like i probably shouldn't have had him on like no you should have but but yeah but back in those days like i would have people on it would just read something they say well this is probably a conversation that's controversial i'll talk to this guy but some of the things he was saying that was one of them was that the black people had this gene for violence like well how the [ __ ] do you explain war i'm like my take was like most war started by white people like if you looked at the amount of war that goes on in the world worldwide like how much how much of it is instigated initiated by white people and is there a thing more violent than war nothing it's like literally you're telling people that don't even know people that it's their obligation to kill someone based on what land they're from or what part of the world that's the most violent [ __ ] we know and it's all by white people black on black crime is a myth no such thing it's a crime of proximity okay because they need something immediately they're going to go all the way across town to the white neighborhood and attack some white guys somebody right here might have it go into his house break it take his stuff beat him up whatever all right so we hear about black on black crime so do we call russia invading ukraine and killing all these people white on white crime that's exactly what it is yes yeah i mean and some people are actually
using that as a an argument for how racist the way we look at war is because during the time where all this is happening in ukraine how many people are bombed in yemen how many people are bombed in all all sorts of parts of the world where there are these military actions that we're ignoring there's actually like a chart that someone put up it's like a graphic that shows the bombings and the the the people that died in ukraine versus the people that are dying right now simultaneously due to u.s drone strikes and all sorts of other [ __ ] that's happening all over the world at the same time it's like we're concentrating on this one thing and it's in the news and that's part of the reason why people are concentrating on it so much well i learned a long time ago when i was living overseas if you want to learn about your own country read a foreign newspaper yeah like the herald tribune the french paper tell their perspective on what's going on in the u.s because we don't tell our own people just the same way russians don't tell their own people everything i'm interested what you know that you had that feeling that you know maybe you shouldn't have had that person on this is early in the day i know i know but i'm just i'm saying that i think that that i'm because i'm sure that was a pretty i don't know what who you're talking about but i'm sure that was a productive conversation in certain ways and i feel like there's this chilling effect that is happening where we're afraid to have a conversation like like with a a murderer or maybe not a murderer but that's kind of the funny thing like you could interview probably a serial killer on this on this show and that would be fascinating and no one would be like oh dude joe's like gonna become a serial killer he just had a serial killer on his show and like people are obsessed with uh true crime and you know obsessed with interviews with some of the worst humans that have ever existed and those are considered to
be extremely valuable interviews and i think that you should i i hope that you you know own your ability to do that in a way where people aren't assuming that you think or you endorse the views of people that you're talking to that is a sickness this is an argument that's always gonna take place where you're platforming those people this is the dialogue that the left likes to use today that you're platforming these people and it's the that's what i hear for sitting down with those people it's so dumb it's such a dumb argument i mean especially in your case like look at the results what are the human being has a documented result of literally hundreds of kkk and neo-nazi people abandoning their ideology because they've had a conversation with you and literally had a change of heart an actual change of heart yeah no no no journalist whining about you know uh intense content on the internet has ever de-radicalized anybody they have no track record they have no data that like so it's just all emotional in fact it polarizes some people that disagree with them yeah and especially when those people get banned if they get banned from the social media platforms for having different perspectives or different views well for instance sorry vice did a piece about us and they said mainz has no idea what to do with all the neo-nazis and just like i talked to these reporters for hours and explained to them what we were working on with daryl and we were sort of in the beginning of phases of writing this paper and they so disingenuously characterized what we were trying to do there's a lot of bad face conversations over here it's so it's toxic and you know i'm just hoping that honestly no offense to them i feel like they're they're in their world hopefully you know we can all get on the same page somehow about what's actually going on here like i'm not trying to have uh you know combative tone with any of these media outlets or with big tech even like i don't want to polarize it between like alternative tech and big tech it's like
we need tech to adopt certain principles that have to do with digital rights and freedom that's just a reality it has to happen and the ones that do what would be smarter than whether it's google facebook twitter whoever to actually start doing some of this stuff and start to be more transparent and i think the amount of moderation that they would require would be extraordinary you can do you can achieve it with community-centric moderators pay pay the users to help yeah but they're not going to do that they will they are they do it so who's going to do that facebook anyone yeah anyway twitter actually rolled out users to moderate they should i think but they're not you're saying they're gonna i'm saying they're not well i'm saying that twitter rolled out a a product called bird watch which was a and i don't know if it's it's still going on this was like last year was a community-centric moderation tool to get the community i'm not so let's let's separate payments from actually getting the community involved in the moderation so communities already heavily involved in moderation they're doing the reporting they're flagging stuff and then it's getting escalated yeah but they flag things that aren't even really offensive and that's why you do it to [ __ ] with people right and so you have to be careful of that and but that's why juries are i i think that juries are a big part of the future of moderation on social media and daryl you were about to say something so you know a lot of hypocrisy you know about who who to put on a platform who not to put on a platform i do a lot of speaking to a lot of colleges across the country universities and i would say two or three times a year you know um some student activities board or student council has booked me and then two weeks before the event the administration will shut it down oh no we can't have him on campus he's too controversial yeah just you know stir stuff up which is not true you know at all you know they they don't want to deal with it and this is unfortunate because they are an institution of higher learning while on the campus
perhaps everybody is being treated equally the gay people lgbtq black white muslim jewish whatever in the confines of the campus but the but the the objective of higher education is to teach people how to navigate society beyond the campus and be a productive citizen right so you gotta let people learn that hey you're a woman here you treat it equally but when you graduate you go out there and work in the real world you might be sexually harassed by your boss you might not get paid as much as your male counterpart who knows less than you or whatever or you may not get the job because you're black or because you're whatever this is you know in addition to the to the academic education they need this empirical education and those and those institutions that are shutting me down are not providing it but what i must say also was today you got speaking of cancer culture you got people banning books and banning history classes under the the guise of crt critical race there things like that you you've seen the pictures of a black girl walking in towards a white school building for the first time people behind her yelling at her and all that kind of stuff or the four black guys sitting at the woolworths county encounter in greensboro and people pouring stuff over their heads 1960s exactly all right those white people that did this made history back then and now it's those same people that are saying we don't want that taught in the schools so make up your mind you know that is history it's part of american history whether it's good bad ugly or shameful all those cards need to be turned face up and it'll be transparent and then we address them and then we move on together okay but history is history so don't create history and then tell me you don't want that history being taught that you created that you were so proud of you know i'm going to stand in the doorway and not let these black kids come in i think it's about if there's is there a neutral lens that we can look at those events and i think that some of the
criticism of crt is that it's not approaching it's it's not approaching those events in from a neutral lens it's not and it's not that you know it's neutral police dogs attacking peaceful black marchers there's nothing in the courthouse to register to vote there's there's nothing neutral about it but it i i think that there's definitely some ideology that is attached to critical race theory that is rooted in critical theory which is you know a left leaning there are there are multiple definitions of critical race theory and nobody has really explained it satisfactorily so people who are against it will explain it this way you're trying to victimize uh white people as the oppressors and victimize black people as the oppressed and that's how you are and you will never change you know that that's that's how the people who are opposed to it define it but you know but that's not necessarily how some of the people who participated in the creation of it like kimberly crenshaw uh i can speak to all of them uh define it you know so it needs to be all history needs to be taught absolutely you know and and through through the lens of what happened um and then move forward but but you can't create history and say you know we don't want to talk about until 50 years later like when i was in high school i'll be 64 this month when i was in high school we did not learn and i i went to high school in montgomery county maryland which has one of the top school districts in the whole country montgomery county maryland and fairfax county virginia we we tie neck and neck each year anyway we were not taught that we had japanese internment camps in this country i did not learn that until i was in high in a college i'm like what are you kidding me no way i asked my parents they said yeah i could not believe i didn't learn that in high school now i knew i knew about the tulsa race riots 30 years ago people today are just now learning about that so you know that's what i'm saying we need to educate education exposure is the key to advancement what we need to do is your take on the way you've had these conversations with these kkk people and these neo-nazi people that has to be across the board with
everything let a person explain their position and then you come up with either a better argument or you agree with part of what they're saying or the only way is to not silence them to let them talk so if people are against critical race theory for any particular reason they should listen to the entire argument of what critical race theory entails and then from at least that person's perspective and then this is what i agree with is what i don't agree with and have a conversation that's rational that's not it's not they're not having ad hominems they're not attacking the human they're not attacking the person with insults they're just talking about what is correct and incorrect about everything from economics to health care to everything these these kind of conversations are how people find out what's right what's wrong and how people find out what resonates with them and as soon as you shut people down those conversations stop and then they these people go off into their own corner of the world where they are accepted and they get in an echo chamber and they just reinforce whatever stupid idea they had in the first place yeah what you were saying about watching people change their minds like yeah interviews like that is so powerful and we're actually watching this change minds sort of challenge where we're gonna be trying to pro like as like a campaign on the site to have people make videos and tell stories of like a meaningful time that they change their mind because everybody doing that more like what's the time that you what's a recent time you've changed your mind about something so sort of meaningful oh i don't know it's it happens all the time though right it happens all the time it's not it's not only a woman's prerogative to change my mind i change my mind all the time i'll change my mind in the middle of a conversation i'll go absolutely i don't think so let me change i'm going to change my mind right now mm-hmm i do that but can you think of something like in your life that like from when you were younger that you were really locked into like what what's just a big one oh i don't know man i've had
so many of them this this conversation would take 15 minutes for me to sit down and talk about it all right daryl you got one yeah i i can give you one okay so as a kid um i learned that a tiger does not change his stripes a leopard does not change his spots right okay and so when i first went into to interview white supremacists and kkk people or whatever um i was not going there to convert them never okay all i want to know is how can you hate me you don't even know me that's all i want to know and then i'm out of here i never see you again right okay uh because if a leopard cannot change his uh his uh spots and attack god change his stripes why would i think that a klansman could change his robin hood it's who he is right but i changed my mind because those conversations did change that person and you're right a leopard cannot change his suspects and a tiger cannot change its uh its stripes because those two animals were born with those spots and stripes that clansmen or clans woman was not born with that robin hood that was a learned uh thing and what can be learned can be unlearned so that's why i changed my mind and why i continue to do this today to sit down with those people and the only way that works is with open dialogue exactly i mean it's it's funny that you answered it like that because for you it's just second nature to constantly be changing and i i think that philosophy yeah yeah i don't think you should ever be your ideas you should never be connected to your ideas your ideas should be something that's independent of you that you either think this is a good one or this is a bad one but if someone comes along and says that's a bad one you shouldn't be defensive you shouldn't like hold on to it and cling to it maybe like try to defend it because you think it's correct like oh i thought that was right but then once it isn't there's some people that for whatever reason never want to admit they're wrong because they think that being wrong makes them less yeah to play devil's advocate with
ourselves i mean i'm not even ideological about our our model i actually think that i'm open to seeing you know over the course of 10 years like let's actually come back in in a few years and look at the data that in in the the information that we've gathered about the rate of d radicalization and one nine like what really works what is the the most balanced moderation policy for a social network like you know first amendment i think is a great starting point and obviously there's edge cases spam weird like there's this boxing yeah doxxing that's stuff we don't we don't deal with and that's not like covered in the first amendment right um but i think that we're we're flexible you know we're not trying to this isn't like a dogmatic piece of uh a policy it's uh but we need to a b test it at least i mean for god's sakes like big tech is just like hemorrhaging censorships like people just millions of people getting banned today and we don't have something to test it against like where's the major network with a with a with a free speech policy that is you know it's a responsible free speech policy let me ask you this what do you guys do about bad actors like troll farms like russian troll farms that kind of thing yeah i mean so we have um i mean so troll like detecting different types of spam and troll like harassment is not okay uh harassment you know you'll get banned um like and harassment is like legally not allowed um so but there's all different types of spam and and you know with misinformation and whatnot i think that yeah but i'm talking about bad actors i'm talking about like like when you have these russian troll farms these are people that are hired to disseminate propaganda they're they're hired to muddy the waters of conversations by having fake arguments or bad faith arguments mercenaries yeah they are i mean there's
so you've seen those right and so yeah so we have the distinction between misinformation and disinformation the difference is that disinformation is intentional manipulation um you know i think that it really depends on the context of the specific post that we're talking about so i don't want to make a generalization about some troll farm i you know there's troll farms in the u.s that are doing all kinds of inauthentic content engineering for different political purposes it doesn't matter what so what countries does it doesn't matter what do you do about it so what i'm saying is you look at it on a case by case basis and evaluate you know is there is it breaking the law because at the end of the day information is information if someone is trying to put everything is propaganda propaganda is coming from you know every single angle so if people it depends on the specific nature of the content in the troll that you're talking about i don't think that you can have a blanket solution saying programming an ai to say hey every time you know you detect x y and z just like bannon wouldn't and uh alternative b everyone has to have like a user id like a driver's license to register so you have one account because you are bill ott well i think that's where the decentralized reputation is starting to come into play and there's this project verite that's coming out there's the did spec which is starting to build this like interoperable identity that you carry between social networks and then so basically you're bringing your your your credibility your your identity whatever you want to share whether it's you know art you know content it's all tied to you and you're sort of moving around freely in in a sovereign situation i think that's where we want to go long term so that you're not locked in as as technology evolves so should i so should ideology yes yeah ideology should also like it needs technology because your ideology should be tested and the best way to test your ideology is to have it encounter
other ideologies and see if it stands up to scrutiny exactly and the thing when when people don't want that and they want people censored what you're saying is your ideas won't hold up because you you don't want to if if we could all have debates in real time with good ideas versus bad ideas and everyone gets the chance to watch it's going to be messy but at the end you're going to at least know where you stand on something because you've had both arguments played out in front of you whether it's left versus right or whatever it is when you're when you're talking about ideologies you you gotta watch these people have these conversations and if you can do that you can kind of agree with one or disagree with the other and find out where you fit in this or take something good from that person something good from that person and put them together yes i think the focus on long form is key yeah and that's why you know so we do support video it's not like necessarily do you host videos yeah we do yeah and so so someone can do like an hour long video and upload it yep you're banned with cosmos speakers oh god it's bad yeah and uh but there are like distributed systems like ipfs that i mentioned and uh r weave and some of these like systems where it's decentralized and you know you don't have to pay for all of the storage but the bandwidth is still is still an issue and you know it's a spectrum with uh with the decentralized stuff but um yeah so dude i have this cool thing it is uh daryl is out of time daryl's out of time i just gotta i gotta wrap up so this is called this this is called an open dime bitcoin wallet so this has a bitcoin on it this has a full bitcoin on it okay and it has this hole that you can puncture so i can this is basically the cash equivalent it's a it's a bearer instrument for bitcoin so i can hand this to you okay i'm not giving it to you but just
we can see it okay yeah so works as like a usb drive so yeah you you plug in your computer and you can send bitcoin to it and then you gotta puncture that hole and that that's what unlocks the private key so i can give it to you and you cannot access the bitcoin on this until that hole is punctured and then you plug it back in and you can actually take control what does that have to do with censorship so well this is the ultimate censorship resistant crowdfunding mechanism you can this is totally uncensorable money that anyone could send crypto right we're talking about discussions conversations well yeah and so the reason i'm bringing it up is because we are putting a full bitcoin towards you know our work with daryl and this we're going to have this basically sit and we're going to watch it over the years and we're going to use the funds the the the address for this wallet is published on mines.com change and so what we want to do you know you see all the censorship the the financial censorship happening which is correlated to censorship of speech google has now suspended monetization on youtube for all users in russia applies to other services as well that's a whole creator industry up in smoke no way these guys can make up that revenue on it's unbelievable yeah so so i just wanted to to bring this up because so we're we're going to be doing more events we believe in offline events too it's not only an online social network and so if the address to if anyone is interested in supporting the conversations the long-form conversations we're having with daryl please you know send bitcoin to this address um and we're go and we're going to put it towards okay um thank you thank you guys for coming here and thank you daryl for thank you for having me all of your your time and effort that you put into this is extraordinary i mean i your patience is unbelievable so it's yours my friend all the other stuff you got to put up with yeah well mike that's what i do though it's it's uh i
guess that's what you do as well and bill thanks for what you're doing with let's let's figure out what [ __ ] was going on and and and fix that on your account yeah let's figure out okay all right thank you everybody i'll tell everybody one more time the minds address yeah uh slash change yeah mines.com change you also get the app mines.com mobile or me at admin and uh daryl what where what social media are you using other than mines i use uh daryl davis.com daryl at daryldavis.com i'm on twitter uh instagram but i have somebody handling that for me but mostly because most of you use minds now yeah mostly i use mines.com also fair uh the foundation against intolerance and racism okay fairforall.org well let's do this again in the future we have more time thank you all right thanks [Music] you