Video URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8vjx6-ZFvI
Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day all right well thanks for being here man appreciate it pleasure absolutely pleasure tell everybody who you are and what your background is okay uh my name is Chris melon and I spent about 20 years working for Uncle Sam worked in the uh senate for the intellig committee and for Senator Cohen also did some armed services committee work when he was asked to become Secretary of Defense um he asked me if I would like to go with him to the Pentagon be part of his team and I was honored and gladly accepted so I then served for four years in the defense department with Senator Cohen secretary Cohen at that point um in various positions all intelligence related and uh in security related and then um I was asked to stay on after uh Clinton departed and so I worked for Sen for secretary r a little bit closer and uh then went back to the Senate intelligence committee as the minority staff director shortly before the uh the second Iraq war so when did you get interested in the subject of UFOs that happened at a surprisingly early age I was 7 years old at a boarding school and the principal of the school a friend of his had photographed U video an old real the real Kodak movie camera taken a movie home movie of a video of a UFO flying in beautiful blue skies cumulous clouds huge Golden Disc that that comes into the picture and Banks goes into a cloud and it disappears into this sort of wispy cloud in a way that would be very very hard I think to to fake somehow particular in those days with no computer generated imagery and it comes out the other side and then sort of goes off Over the Horizon and I was you know stunned and flabbergasted and myself and all the other kids ran outside that night and were looking at the stars and it just uh uh sparked my curiosity a lifelong curiosity so once you got into government and once you were I mean you were there you're basically there you had to start asking questions like did you wait a while like how long did you ask for you like hey what do you guys know yeah uh well uh for a long time I waited um very rarely I looked for openings I looked for
opportunities so uh for example you know the stigma is is so great that you're reluctant obviously to uh to raise that issue a couple times there were some natural opportunities so uh one of my colleagues on the intelligence committee was going to Hawaii for some over site uh trips meetings and he went to the Maui uh space Optical tracking facility and I said to him why you there why don't you just check and see do they ever see anything weird they can't explain and so forth so he did and uh Pete called me up and said hey you wouldn't believe this I've got this videotape here and it's shows these weird things and so I talked to the Air Force people they sent the tape to us turns out it was totally unclassified um I showed it to Senator Cohen uh and some others and it ended up on uh on national TV um actually but it didn't generate uh any further response everybody just kind of threw their the hands up in the air and said well you know that's interesting but uh we don't know what to do with it it was a Ted cpp's Nightline show that this tape was played on it showed sort of five objects moving parallel to the ground possibly in formation they're in the at spere because they're burning they're interacting with something uh you know this plasma coming off them um which wouldn't presumably be happening in space but they seem to be too slow to be meteorites so it was mystifying and difficult to explain never did get an answer um occasionally something like that would happen by and large the issue almost never arose the the the issue is a weird issue because if you bring it up in the wrong company or at the wrong time you could be dismissed as a loon did you feel that when you were there like as a person who had a budding interest in unidentified flying objects and and what have you did you feel like this is a politically risky thing to discuss especially to discuss like in serious terms like do you believe in these things like what are they what do we know is was that an issue absolutely um I concealed my interest in the the topic uh for years and uh very carefully and confided to a few trustworthy friends had a few heart-to-heart talks with a couple individuals when I found a fellow
traveler who was interested in this topic but by and large uh absolutely uh wanted to conceal that and and not reveal that did you know Clinton no I did not he would be the guy that I would go to I feel like there's a request that came to me once that I think was from President Clinton and it was one of the astronauts claimed to have seen um a UFO out at Edwards Air Force Base and it was videotaped he said and he described this in his Memoir and wanted the president to get hold of the tape of the video and secretary con came back to the Pentagon from a meeting and a message came down to me to go to try to find this tape and uh unfortunately there was U I got got nowhere with that the Air Force was adamant that there was no such tape there was no such information anything they had on UFOs have been destroyed um so I had one of these situations that's very common in this area which is you have just two apparently credible sources but utterly conflicting irreconcilable information which seems to happen often in this field now being as you were in government and very close to literally the machine that runs the world what what's the general perception when people are discussing these these things in in Washington what is what's the general perception of what what's going on with these things well I'm happy to say that it's changed that perception has changed considerably in the last few years people feel like they had permission to talk about it when do you think this happened this happened after the New York Times article and and subsequent press uh beginning in 2017 December 2017 and um that sort of gave people permission to talk about this and I've actually had Pentagon friends who said you know this is kind of cool we don't have to go in the closet to talk about this anymore what do you think kept it in the closet before like when did the stigma start do you think this was like intentionally sort of set up this way it was uh it was the Robertson panel commission 1953 and They concluded during the those Cold War days that this was a uh Potential Threat to National Security because UFO reports might overwhelm our our air defense and communication system
and that the Soviets might spook the public and somehow manipulate this issue so they actually advocated in writing that uh this issue be debunked and discredited and the government uh went ahead and did so um extremely successfully unfortunately this all started with the Project Blue Book correct correct it was during that era so uh what was the gentleman's name that was running Project Blue Book again um well there were different people astronomer Ellen heinik heik and heinik went on to become a Believer so he started debunking and was told essentially the way he reported it was that he was told to kind of debunk every single case everything he could find whether a swamp gas or you know ball lightning find some way to to explain this away but then once he left Project Blue Book he started openly discussing these cases and he started discussing his own belief that's correct and and he felt badly burned as well because he was trying to carry out uh his mandate that the Air Force had given him as you may recall in one instance he went to Michigan and famously declared that the people of Michigan were misconstruing swamp gas for for flying objects and so Gerald Ford who is representing that District got incensed as did the local population and Congress took a fleeting interest in the topic and uh Dr heinik was very embarrassed um and understandably so it was really uh quite insulting to these to these people who had uh had very clear sightings of these objects so um he did eventually um change his view publicly and was very critical of of Project Blue Book was all this stuff like being inside the government and knowing how prevalent these sightings are and how credible some of them are was it was it frustrating to you to be a part of this and to know that this information is kind of being squashed and distorted and it's interesting that what H happened actually is that I wasn't seeing information squashed or distorted in the Pentagon uh or the intelligence Community I saw one instance of a very technical very classified report that explained away some sightings that nobody even knew were being reported otherwise it was kind of odd to see this explanation from uh about an incident that had not been otherwise reported but
generally what was this inent um this was some military Pilots doing reconnaissance missions who were seeing some very unusual lights and the directorate of Science and Technology at CIA did a extensive analysis and found a plausible explanation for for what they had seen that was not extraterrestrial and so they published an article on that it was a good article good piece of research but the only time that was about the only time I ever saw anything that uh in writing about this subject which the government said it wasn't following it wasn't interested in and you almost I had friends who would call me up I had a Navy friend who was a pilot and he said you wouldn't believe what happened at our Base today there was a plane up and there was a UFO flying around it and it land he was you know he knew I was interested in this from college days and he called me up with his hair on fire to tell me about this incident but that kind of thing was not going up through channels so people in the Pentagon to the best of my knowledge all the way up to the SE def were not hearing or seeing any of these reports it wasn't until I met Lou alzando and his group and some of the Navy guys and talk to the pilots about what was happening on the East Coast from 2015 onward and the nimit incident that I found out that this activity had been going on and just wasn't being reported so was it that no one in the Pentagon was seeking this out there wasn't a mandate to go look for it there there wasn't a department that was uh designed to seek these things out I mean what was the reason why it wasn't getting all the way to the Pentagon well specifically in the case of the Navy in 2016 just today I believe or yesterday U DOD announced the uh that they're going to do an IG in investigation of this incident of of this phenomenon issue the Inspector General okay sorry so there's going to be an internal investigation at DOD of how they handled this UFO issue um and I believe it's this is it's not clear yet they just made this announcement and their motives and what sparked this are still a little bit uncertain but it appears they're going to focus on this issue of how did this fall through the cracks for years how is it that these guys are flying around seeing this stuff
it's on the radar and nobody up the chain of command is being notified um policy makers the the secretary defense himself um Congress Etc it was um just going into the ether I mean there was no effort made to to get support to any of those guys and that's when I you know kind of threw the [ __ ] flag and said this is unacceptable and so that's when I started jumping into this do you think it was because of the that's attached to the subject that they just didn't bother bringing it to their superiors absolutely y um people were afraid to report it and as we saw in the nimt case some years earlier in 2004 let's explain what we're talking about we're talking about Commander David fraver in his sightings off the coast of San Diego the Tic Tac shaped UFO that moved at extraordinary speed with no known propulsion system they tracked it on radar it was actively jamming their radar it went to their uh predetermined point that where they were supposed to scam yeah and so somehow or another it had information as to where they were traveling to ex extraordinary capability went from 80,000 ft above sea level to one in less than a second they have no idea what it is what it does and then the people on the nits were saying they had been seen these things correct and on the uh Princeton and when Dave and the uh the other uh F-18 landed there was no uh interest on the part of the Intelligence Officers of doing anything really other than but ridiculing them so they came out you know with tin hats on and foil hats and they were playing uh Men in Black song or something but that case was phenomenal uh because there were so many witnesses and so many different sensor systems that were verifying independently the visual reporting so there were multiple Radars there were infrared systems uh perfect viewing conditions broad day light middle of the afternoon multiple aircraft and all of the data agrees that these craft are doing things that we thought were impossible and then there was also the thing that led them to see it in the first place was that he thought there was something under the surface of the ocean what happened is he was vectored he and his uh wingman were vectored to intercept that Tic Tac at that point
when they arrived and looked down they saw it moving around and they saw the water roiled in fact I think first they saw the water before they saw the Tic Tac they saw something unusual it looked like white water breaking on a reef kind of thing right and then they saw the Tic Tac and then Dave Dove down to get close to it and it reacted to his presence turned around viewed him and then started uh taking countermeasures and it was clear to the pilots in both aircraft that this thing maintained a a dominant position uh throughout their engagement with it that it could easily have have done what it wanted to them they had no chance really of of getting behind it or getting the upper hand in that engagement then when he went and reported this that's when things get weird right because people have to dissect this information and look at this guy Commander fraver very respected guy not the type of person who makes up wacky stories then when it's supported by all this data I think that's one that's probably one of the biggest ones that led to being included in the New York Times right correct absolutely mhm because it was so credible and because and then there was the go fast video and the Fleer video and all these other videos that show these things moving in extraordinary ways correct and they're authentic the defense department acknowledged those videos um why do you think they did that I they didn't do it initially but ultimately they didn't have much choice and I think the reason that they that they finally did is because um we had taken this issue to Congress I had taken and uh I contacted some former colleagues on the committee said you guys really ought to look at this I know it sounds crazy but you know give me a chance here and um so a couple of them started taking interest some of the staffers started meeting with some of the pilots when they started requesting briefings that you know coming from the Senate armed services and intelligence committees that went up the flag pole to the top and the Navy brass and the senior Pentagon uh civilians in the office of the Secretary of Defense became aware that these committees are taking an official interest now and uh you know we can't fool around with this and we have to really be straight and
and put it out there so at that point they couldn't tell them in private yeah this is real and then publicly deny it wasn't yeah so so they came clean so this is the great shift right the great shift in our time of from UFOs being ridiculed and being these silly things that uh tinfoil hat conspiracy theory people believe in to the defense department agreeing that this is an issue that's correct very interesting to me I saw your interview with Elon Musk and he seemed unaware as he's an alien bro listen he's cover May he's part of the cover up because he seemed unaware that his own government is has to taken the position that UFOs are real I got Elon in trouble because we smoked pot on Show when he got in trouble he was like his top secret clearance was in trouble and there was a lot going on and I think he's trying to play it straight and narrow when he's around me now like aliens out outrageous I I was advised that that getting highend program would would be would not be a good thing to do yeah it's not a good move don't do it if you want to drink that's probably better stick to the coffee okay stick to the coffee that's a good move we want to be clear here right we want to be clearheaded when we discuss this because it's such it's such a an easily ridiculed thing you know it's it's one of those things like psychics and Bigfoot you bring it up and people just automatically start rolling their eyes but statistically if you just look at the size of the universe and you look at the fact that there's so many Goldilocks zone planets that they've already discovered and then also the the wide variety of life that exists in various conditions on Earth who knows right and who knows whether or not these things are living in the ocean this is what's bizarre to me is there a lot of these sightings the one in Hawaii recently and there's another one that Jeremy Corbell leak this uh photograph that shows something disappearing into the ocean they seem to there seems to be multiple sightings and multiple witnesses that discuss things going into the ocean yeah that that is absolutely true um in terms of backing up on on your your question there a little bit um you know people ask me do you think do you believe in aliens and and that's
really not the question or the issue for most people M there are probably in an infinite Universe an infinite number of alien civilizations right the question is you know could we ever communicate with them or have contact right so what's interesting about that to me in part is that we have NSA uh NASA spending billions to try to find alien life even if it's microbial we have Yuri Milner spending hundreds of millions and supporting the seti program and meanwhile we have these things flying around our atmosphere that we're seeing on the radar that kind of look and like what you might expect if somebody sent a probe uh somebody followed the trajectory we're on ourselves today M and they're doing incredible things that we don't understand and yet the scientific community and the government have not wanted to dared to ask the question in this context that they ask every day in this other context with NASA it's spend billions of dollars on and there's no cross talk you know scientifically we would actually Pro you know they're listening for these signals from outer space but it's more efficient to send probes and it's safer and that's what we are doing ourselves right and so that's what would probably be more likely um a probe would give more information it wouldn't reveal the the location or the source of the the civilization that was sending it um you know it's more Dynamic and versatile it could get closer to the Target Etc there's all kinds of advantages including energy and it would be easy for a civilization uh more advanced than ours we're getting on the cusp of this ourselves to create using artificial intelligence probes that were self-sufficient launch them out in whatever numbers let them go see what they find and report back and that's that's entirely plausible there's no scientific reason for thinking that that couldn't happen moreover if even one space fairing Society started to expand outward as we are are in our galaxy in the Milky Way within a tiny fraction of the lifetime of the Milky Way they could explore and colonize the entire galaxy so even if you know they haven't achieved super luminal travel they can't violate the speed of light um and and go faster than that if they went say 20% the speed of light and just
continued to steadily expand their domain and explore outward in the space of two or three million years they could have uh gone from one end of the galaxy to the other so you know it's not an unreasonable proposition it's a question of of getting the facts and uh it's about time some of us think that we we take it seriously and and start looking at it do most people who look at this believe that this is some sort of a probe like when you look at the Tic Tac video well Dave himself says it's not from around here it wasn't made here not made by us and he doesn't propose to say where it's from some some people suspect as you suggest that it could be ultraterrestrial it could be something inherently from our planet under the ocean that's been here for a long long time perhaps a uh Way Station that some AI established that just is a it's a waypoint here and it's monitors what's going on in this planet and stays under the ocean comes out looks around reports back and just has been doing that for thousands of years but um not alien is coming and going there's all manner of of theories that's that's one of them but uh I would say that on the inside the people that are really close to this in the Pentagon they face the Dilemma we all face is which is what hypothesis can explain what we're seeing that is prosaic that doesn't involve either extraterrestrials or ultraterrestrials or something like that it's very hard for us to believe that the Chinese or the Russians are that far ahead of us in such basic Technologies such fundamental Technologies perhaps it's true and that's got its own set of problems but either way we need to get to the bottom of it that's that's my position at least yeah there's some of these things that it's not outside the realm of possibility it's a drone like the the most recent video The Pyramid shaped objects that are flying around like you you've seen that right absolutely yeah what was your take on those things you know it's I I want to see the rest of the data they've got radar data on that and from the radar data they should be able to gain some real insights as to where these things are coming from and going to trajectories speeds all that kind of thing that
hasn't been released right that has not been released there's they still analyzing that I don't think that they will comment publicly on that unfortunately but they do have that information and um and other information so we should be able to gain some insights it's entirely possible they are drones um Tyler rogaway is a a brilliant analyst um of of Aviation issues who works for the war zone has written a very lengthy piece making that uh uh making that assertion um could be right I'm uh I'm a little skeptical um but we'll see that's why we need more data well the duration of the of flight was far longer than drones routinely can what was the duration hours so typically um if it's um an electric drone it has a very short uh flight time these things these these ships were 100 miles off the coast in conditions of low visibility and so whoever was operating these things uh was traversing a long distance probably uh there were only a few other ships in the area um and they know what those ships were and they deny that that they were operating these Craft um so they were in the air a long time they were very um rigorous and in the manner in which they operated as as a unit they clearly intended to get our attention they were operating in a manner that suggest they were trying to provoke our air defense uh systems see how we would react you know maybe see what frequencies we start communicating on what we what actions we take and so forth it's the kind of thing we sometimes do ourselves to to potential adversaries to help gain the situation out so you know I I have a completely open mind on it I just wanted to see the evidence but there's some features of this that uh if they are drones um they're probably more advanced than anything we have now one of them was flashing right Jamie see if you can find that video is that your breathing it is I was trying to figure out what that noise was see if you can find that video I've had my covid test it's not no I don't think there's anything wrong with you I was just I was trying to figure out what that flashing light yes that one okay yeah have you seen you know I've seen that and it looks like it's flashing sort of the way an
airplane would right that's R and that's but what's odd about that is you're in a a restricted military airspace commercial aircraft have transponders you would know if they were commercial aircraft they're on ra they've got they're looking at the radar picture so they would know from that if it's a commercial aircraft um it's hard to to understand if it was a a commercial aircraft of some kind or even a private plane why they wouldn't be able to identify it yeah well the flashing I mean there see you can see it here so this is uh the leaked footage courtesy of Jeremy Corbell so like you see it now either it's reflecting something that's flashing off the ship or it's flashing itself and there was three of them that they tracked right I think that's the right number yeah the thing about these things is yeah yeah it's extraordinary it's crazy looking it's it's weird to see these pyramids floating through the sky but they're not moving like the Tic Tac it's not doing something that we can't do it's just you see them move around it's it's really weird but it's um it's not definitive evidence of anything at this point it's strange it's peculiar that it's happening around a warship yeah and that our guys don't know what it is and it looks like some of these things are entering and leaving the water which is yeah really peculiar um so it's an example of the kind of thing that that we just haven't been looking at that's going on we've been blowing off right and now we're finally getting some traction and getting the government to say you know yeah we probably really ought to pay attention to this do you think that there's a more there's more frequent sightings or do you think they're being reported more now there are certainly more reports coming in civilian and Military uh the technology uh that we have today is Leaps and Bounds over what we had even a few years ago in terms of resolution distance range all those kinds of things um the the latest generation of Radars that are being deployed are a huge step forward from what was in the fleet just years a few years ago so that is probably leading to some reporting that we didn't have before things that were out there but the radar cross-section was so low they weren't appearing on people's Scopes so I think it's probably
a mixture of things but what is concerning in part is that some of this activity is more inyour face kind of stuff it's more like not elusive you know on the edge you see it and it flies away it's coming to a nuclear power station and buzzing around it and and staying there it's coming around these warships and making a point of being seen it's coming to a uh Air Force Base in Guam and doing the same thing yeah um so that's that's new and that's a little concerning and haven't there been reports of them showing up around missiles and doing something with the launch codes or stopping stopping the the power from working in in these places or something along those lines some sort of manipulation of of the Power Systems almost to let you know yeah this is one of the most provocative and fascinating and important stories in this whole uh in this whole area of UFOs and National Security and we have retired Air Force officers who who've testified to this and there are Foya documents that support these claims but the Air Force has never been asked by Congress or anyone to address this they've never acknowledged it there's an opportunity to do that now and I think it's long overdue this is this is stunning if it's true I mean this is the backbone of our nuclear deterrent strategy it's really the crown jewels of our our freedom and Independence and and uh ability to deter nuclear powers like Russia and China you know this is kind of the ultimate insurance policy militarily that we have and if someone can come in there and turn these things off um that's it's just shocking absolutely shocking so it's because of the stigma Congress has been unwilling even to ask the question even in private um even though this is very well documented these people have come out uh in their retired you know uniforms and things and with their uh documentation showing where they were assigned and in one of these cases um out at Malmstrom Air Force Base I believe it was there's a good book because the local sheriff was responding to so many calls from civilians in the area to UFOs that were being seen encountered he co-authored a book on what was happening so there's a lot of data about this but yet there's no official confirmation that that occurred yeah the the sheer volume I I
would like to know whether or not the they are increasing in volume or whether or not it is just an increase in our ability to detect them and we we don't really know right see because it's been 2017 so it's not that long AG or four years when it really started being something that people were willing to take seriously or willing to because of the New York Times article and because you know there's just a few videos that are pretty extraordinary the go fast video when you hear the pilots going what the [ __ ] and you're watching that thing Buzz across the water with no heat signature yeah the in terms of reporting there has definitely been an increase of surge the last 12 or so months and you see this on the public side with uh organizations that track these things the mutual UFO Network and so forth they've had a surge of maybe 20% some people think well maybe it's co more people are outside looking at the night sky that could be some of it um there are more reports that are coming with video and photographs these days if you look at these websites new fork and muon from say 10 years ago uh not so many people had cell phones in their pockets routinely now you'll see very strange photographs and and videos frequently most of the time there's a prosaic explanation but but not always and um so my sense is that there probably a little bit of both going on U more activity some of it's a little Bolder than we've seen in the past and um but also better instrumentation to to record this another thing that's happening certainly on the government side this is the big thing is that people are less afraid to report it so there was a lot of stuff going on we don't know how much because nobody was reporting it and I've been in meetings with people um at uh at the Pentagon with guys who were commander of an awax aircraft for example and they'd say yeah you know we saw some really weird stuff but we weren't telling anybody about it you know we tore up the files um guys at the National Security Agency or other places who said I kept a book of uh you know anomalies weird things and then I didn't turn it over to my replacement I just tore it up so we have blinded ourselves um we've done this to ourselves and we're playing catchup now well unfortunately some people are full of [ __ ] and that muddies
the water right some people do make absolutely absolutely that didn't help for sure yeah what do you think about Mass sightings like what was your take on like say the Phoenix Lights yeah that's fascinating um and there are a number of these Mass sighting cases and not just in the US um there was a soccer match in Italy reportedly with 10,000 fans at a stadium the game came to a screeching halt and people watched this thing overhead um there have been some Mass sightings in Brazil and other places the Phoenix case what I find most intriguing about that one of the things is that F Simington the governor of Arizona who's a former Air Force officer himself said after the fact he saw this thing and it was not a plane it was not flares as some in the Air Force contended and that was the triangle shaped object that was enormous he said it was at least a football field long maybe several football fields correct yeah huge and hundreds if not thousands of people saw this a number of people very similar sightings yeah yeah very similar and it was coming down from there was quite a path of sighting so before uh phix is there a video I'm sorry to interrupt you is there a video of the triangle not that I know of I've seen it if there is the videos are all just the lights that are in the sky right yeah yeah yeah and they said that they were flares but they're hovering right yeah and uh CU it takes a long time for I mean there were flares out that night and so that muddies the waters right I think they determined there were actually some aircraft doing an exercise to drop some flares but uh this seems to be something apart from that at least uh what F Simon and and many others reported hard to reconcile with the flare flare exercise well the problem with the flare analogy is unless the flares are suspended with balloons where they were slowly lowering from the sky it doesn't make any sense cuz they're hovering yeah like I mean they might have been flares suspended by balloons and slowly making their way down but you know like see if you can find the Phoenix Lights video it's it's weird because if they were just dropped flares they would drop they would drop with speed of gravity would be normal I mean well in some cases people also saw the these lights moving in formation
yeah so you know as far as I know flares don't do that I've seen flares and that's not what I observed and this was what the '90s was this the '90s this was 80 late 80s I believe was it and you know drone technology back then was pretty unsophisticated right correct um the kind of drones we have now so here it is like get the [ __ ] out of here that's not flares like those things are not dropping they're just hovering there yeah it's very strange flares it doesn't look like FL flare to me also the way flares illuminate right the way they radiate light um it could be some different kind of flare Poss or you mean could be instead of a flare it could be some sort of massive LED like cu the this the sheer size too when you look at them hovering over the city you have to take into account that if you look at that image right there you have to take into account everything you're looking down there is buildings and windows and street lights and all that jazz those things have to be massive to make that much illumination while they're in the sky if you just had a flashlight and you were hanging a flashlight in the sky like what is it a th000 feet in the air or so who knows whatever it is probably 1 th000 feet couple thousand feet if you had a couple thousand feet up in the air and you had a flashlight you could barely see that thing absolutely right no way you wouldn't see it like that whatever that is hovering over that City that's bizarre and whatever that is it was seen by people uh hundreds of miles in both directions yeah so it wasn't just Phoenix it was reported in in the sequencing uh all all fits in ter there was something that appeared to be flying down from Nevada entered Northwestern Arizona continued over Phoenix and and then down south and people along that pathway were reporting this hundreds of people yeah and this we were watching the video it just stays there like it's not dropping yeah and now this one's not moving which is curious too yeah if it was going to drop it would I mean if it was just dropped out of a plane as a flare for sure it would be way lower by now like those things are flying whatever that is look at her the flares I have seen in Nary exercises dropped pretty steady a pretty steady R yeah yeah it's pretty clear that's you know
it looks like something dropping that's something hovering um there's there was a few other ones that that have taken place the the African school children the children yeah that's a that's a crazy one it is crazy and there are other cases like that there's a case very similar in Australia um supposedly thousands of people were witnesses to that event and there were dozens uh at least 50 school children who who saw this thing and teachers um but yeah that's really bizarre and that that's part of the the challenge with this phenomenon is you get into these areas very quickly and uh it makes it even harder to have the discussion yeah it makes it harder for government people politicians and others to engage it reminds me a little bit of uh Galileo when he was before the Inquisition for claiming that uh you know it's a heliocentric uh solar system we're going around the Sun and he said you know just look through the telescope guys come on look through the telescope you'll see if you they wouldn't look through the telescope when when you bring this a lot of people justop right there they don't want to hear anything else they don't want to talk any about it they're done yeah so it's it's a challenge I do think there has been a shift um and I think um I I I agree with you that the big one was the New York Times but I also think uh the Bob laar documentary was a big one too because when you listen to Bob talk over long periods of time and you you hear him describe what it is that he saw what he supposedly worked on in the late 80s and the way he described the propulsion system which is exactly the same way that Tic Tac thing moves that's what's bizarre it's like in the other one was it the Fleer video which which video where it turns sideways before it takes off that's gimbal gimbal I'm sorry when you watch that video you're like what that where it's rotating yeah that's gimbal yeah what's really um also interesting about gimbal is that off the screen there's a formation of UFOs flying towards the Gimbal and the Navy aircraft that are there and when you hear the one guy remark one of the pilots he says look dude there's a whole Fleet of them out there that's what he's referring to there was a v-shaped formation of these
objects approaching the gimbal which then veered away and flew off and they don't have any idea what those were yeah the the gimbal one is weird um and I've I've seen people try to debunk it too and it's it's so strange when people try to debunk things that you really can't explain so here you see this thing move it's moving and then at one point it turns sideways so they're switching between different ways of viewing it and they're trying to figure out what it is but they're really this is just what is this infrared is that what this is correct forward-looking infrared radar and so they're they're tracking it trying to figure out what it does and then you see it rotate MH and that's bizarre yeah and there's a strong headwind so it can't be a balloon I me headwinds like 120 knots or something it's just so it's so and then off cameras I said you've got this formation approach v-shaped formation of craft and they don't have transponders either and what the hell are they doing in there get footage of the formation I don't believe so now how does this footage get out did somebody leak it yeah yeah but leak leak uh sounds pejorative uh let me try to put a positive spin on this somebody released uh yeah they went through a proper process and it came with documentation that said approve for public release it wasn't like it just went out the back door the rub in part is that public affairs didn't know about it so they got their nose out of joint but it actually had gone through an official review and and had documentation saying approved her public release wow that's interesting I wonder why they've decided to prove that for public release uh well there were some people on the inside who were worried that this issue was was not getting any attention and um were very concerned about was happening very concerned about the National Security situation uh I had actually introduced Lou alzando Who was leading a small effort in the Pentagon to try to track this this activity uh to two people that who were direct reports to General Mattis and so when I first found out this was going on and and it was falling through the cracks I thought well maybe
we can get this up to the front office and at least make them aware and unfortunately after several meetings and bringing pilots in um these individuals became aware that that yes indeed something is happening but they were confir they were concerned that General Mattis might be contaminated politically from even taking a briefing they were very protective of his uh his reputation and his stature which is understandable you mean contaminated if he took a brief if he took it just from hearing the briefing people would question his got it so they didn't want that to happen and this was kind of happening out of normal channels which are suffocating in the defense department normally any memo to go to the SEF has to get routed through like 14 or 17 different offices all have to approve and if they have a question it stops the process and they have to be briefed and convinced to sign on and then it goes into a line with thousands of other packages so this was an attempt to sort of expedite this and get get it to a senior level is that one of the more extraordin things about the fact this stuff is being released the fact that everything generally does have to go through so many levels that they are kind of throwing their hands up in the air and going look we have to do something or say something well there were a few uh I w't call them whistleblowers but there were a few people who were very concerned and willing to take this out of normal channels because it wasn't even it wasn't even that that people were having trouble moving along it wasn't going anywhere nobody NORAD didn't even know the North American Aerospace Defense command was not even being notified that this was happening right off the coast now when you look at the gimbal video did did they have some sort of a radar on this before they went and tried to meet up with it like how how did they find out where this thing was I don't know in that case I know for certain in the case of um of the Tic Tac um in 2004 with Commander fraver that the Princeton was guiding them with its egis radar to The Intercept point and tracking it afterward when it went to the cap point in this case I suspect it was a ship uh guiding them but they it may have been
their onboard uh Radars because they have very sophisticated Radars and the pilots that I've spoken with out there said we would see these things all the time yeah we'd see the the radar see them showing up on the radar all the time and a couple times guys just went to investigate for themselves they had enough fuel or coming back from and exercise and said I'm I'm to go check that thing out and um so I'm not sure in this particular case which which it was but um it could have been either I think to take something to take into consideration is the vast spance of the ocean too I mean if you were going to try to hide something you know as it were in plain sight there's no better place to do it than the ocean right I mean there's nothing out there right it's mostly a desert a giant wet desert right yeah it's vast and largely unexplored and unknown and inaccessible we do have the ability to um if we become interested in a particular area to really do some serious reconnaissance underwater um we have resources but again somebody has to make a decision how specific do we have to be in terms of like it's not like they can look at the entire Pacific Ocean right certainly not but you know with with bottom scanning sonars and things like that they can cover pretty large areas um so in the cas of from a from a ship EXC they can do do it from ships they can do it from submarines they can do it from various kinds of platforms and uh but would it be like being in California on a plane trying to look at the entire country no I mean in the case of the nimit for example they had a lat long where they had the intercept so they had a very precise location and looking under the O long being latitude longitude and longitude where where that incident occurred where they vectored the Jets to so looking a few square miles around that area would have been very feasible that would have been feasible a few square miles yeah but with depends on how much resolution you want so if you want really precise resolution there's always a trade-off then in the time it takes to cover an area right and um so they could do a larger area more quickly at a lower resolution but to to really look closely
and carefully you the S underwater S as like a radar kind of but when it's focused it can give you a very uh strong picture of what you're looking at and it can also you know detect uh metal it'll react you know bounce off more strongly you get a stronger signal and things so they can do a pretty efficient search uh if they want to that's assuming that this thing is still going to be there and also or if there was if there was still something down there that it doesn't recognize that they're there like the Tic Tac did and block their tracking which it did right correct uh there was there was interference um I not with Dave I think but at the cap point where uh uh you had another F-18 the same day went out Chad Underwood uh that's when they got video of it right that's when they got the Fleer video and he could not get a lock on and uh as I recall he felt his system was being interfered with yeah um so what I was getting at though is it's not like we can drop something in the Pacific Ocean and get a detailed map of the entire ocean no hell no no yeah possible they kind of would be like looking at the entire country from California in a plane like there's you're going to miss a lot there's no way you're going to see the whole thing what's interesting I mean from overhead imagery now even commercial imagery with artificial intelligence you know we're able to pretty much map the world every day and if you have a particular profile you're looking for with these computer algorithms you can search all that imagery fairly quickly so the Recon cap reconnaissance capability are extensive and you can uh cover large areas particularly if you're looking for a particular thing and you can describe it well so that if it sees a match the computer sees a match it it identifies it um there is a lot there just mountains of data coming into this panoply of sensors that we have from thousands of miles out in space to closer in space to the air ground sea under sea um there's a layer uh a mesh Network around the entire planet essentially except in the ocean well in the ocean we have sensors but it's not the same kind of coverage we kind of have to get lucky yeah I mean certain depends certain areas are very closely
monitored choke points for example are going to be natural places you're going to want to look carefully um and certain kinds of things are are going to give a a pretty strong signature but that gets off pretty quickly into the area that um is confidential the government keeps confidential I bet they do but I would imagine though that if I was an alien I would definitely hide in the ocean I would say that's that's the move just be a great place to do it fly around in there there was a sub uh accompanying the nits carrier battle group and it didn't detect anything in the water so there may be an ability to to move underwater uh and remain undetected much as there's an ability in the air to to uh go at supersonic speeds without creating a shock wave whatever this technology is it has some very unusual properties yeah that's the bizarre thing right the supersonic speeds and then that brings us to lazar's depiction of how these things worked that they somehow another B gravity these things that he worked on which is the model that's on the desk there that's a supposedly a detailed model of what that thing looked like that he worked on the sport model I think they called it that's what he called it yeah yeah when you watch him talk and you hear him give his description of his time working there and what he saw and what he thinks those things are what was your take on that I thought it was curious and interesting I mean I've been to Area 51 I didn't see any flying saucers or any like that what did you see I saw uh defense department uh uh experiments being performed and and training activities and that sort of thing nothing that the taxpayer would would uh uh object to but of course not but it's a big range there's a lot of stuff going on out there and there's a lot of adjacent ranges uh if you look at the map where he was that's what he said yeah I found his explanation is curious um yeah how so the the complexity of it uh and the fact that he talked about lorenti for example and then decades later it turns out that um apparently there is a more stable form of that then that's Element 115 I sounds right I couldn't tell you for sure it's called lorenti lorenti that sounds like something from Battle Star Galactica you
know we need the all stuff that right so uh now I I'm a little skeptical about his claims I have to say um friend of mine uh claims to know the the gal who was his supervisor when he worked out there and knows what he was was actually doing and where he was located ated um and claims that uh that he was a guy who checked radiation on badges that's it yeah and so all the rest is fiction according to that story um and this is a person that you know yeah maybe that person's full of [ __ ] maybe about that you know I I don't have the ground truth on this but but he did falsify his educational records and he's been involved in some other things and uh and it just doesn't talk MIT records yeah yeah he explained that to me he said that he was working on something for the government at and they sent him to MIT to learn something and he I can't say too much I'll tell you off air because he told me not to talk about it but it makes more sense when you hear his description of it that essentially it wasn't documented that he was studying there because what he was doing was really a terrible thing a Terri experiment they're working on when I explain it to you maybe it'll make more sense okay maybe not though maybe he's full of [ __ ] maybe he lied about that what's interesting though is he's told the same exact story since the late 80s and he doesn't seem full [ __ ] now some people are really good at lying and uh you know I've been tricked before and I'm sure you have too there's some people that are just sociopaths they're really good at yeah they don't even like know they're lying they're like convinced in their own head while they're spinning it he's obviously though he's obviously very intelligent and he obviously knows a lot about science he knows a lot about propulsion systems and and he really did work at UH Los Alamos which is interesting because he's actually on the employee roster Y and they tried to say that he didn't he knew people that were there he knew the layout of the building when he went there with George knp they went through the building he knew exactly where everything was and he knew the people that worked there so he really did work
there apparently allegedly his story what's interesting to me is that again it's the same story over and over and over again and then what's also interesting to me is that he knew and took friends to a place where they were testing these things out and he knew where it was and he knew when they were doing it and he brought his friends out there and that's when they got arrested yeah I it's a very uh I think there's some consistency there um that is hard to explain how would he know where to go and right what was going on um there are some possible answers to that I've poked into this a bit um supposedly there was a bar off base where the scientists and a lot of the aviators and people would go and hang out he was a frequent frequented that place and picked up information so you know I I hear stories on both sides of this um I don't know what the what the ground truth is and um I I I remain skeptical but yeah you know hey there's a lot of crazy stuff going on I enjoyed his company I I went to dinner with him and Jeremy and uh I talked to him for several hours uh on the podcast and off the podcast I uh I don't know you know I don't but it's a it's a weird one cuz you never made any money doing that you never made any money telling that story I'll tell you another story offline we can exchange stories offline boy I'm excited I can't wait for this to be over now um what other stories are compelling we talked about Travis Walton who is I got a Travis Walt and bobblehead ladies and gentlemen from Travis himself and Travis is the uh the man whom the movie Fire in the Sky uh was created about his event that happened in Arizona correct correct when he was uh working for a Logging company and encountered an object and went missing for several days and came back with this fantastic story of being abducted by aliens yeah I had the uh the pleasure of meeting him once uh with my two of my boys and um listened to his story and and read the book and so forth and um it seems credible you know as incredible as it is he was missing for those five days no one's ever found any explanation of where he was there was a full man hunt going on there were like six or seven other guys who saw the UFOs saw this beam strike him uh he's told the same
story for years um it's you know I asked him a couple questions and he he gave quick rapid answers of course he's been telling this story for a long time but he didn't sound like someone who had to pause and you know try to what am I going to say with this you know it seemed very natural talking about it um according to that story as you know he uh woke up on an examination table lashed out these beings were examining him he runs into the hallway runs into another room and these uh very Nordic looking individuals come in and settle them down and escort them out and so forth and days later he wakes up next to a road hundreds of miles from where he was last seen um you know what do you do with a story like that it's just so it's so hard to independently confirm anything yeah there's nothing that contradicts his story that that we have uh but it's not possible to confirm it so it goes into a category of which there are a great many wild incredible stories like that that that really make you scratch your head um there are some where there's a little more evidence uh there's the cash lram case here in Texas for example where uh a family was severely irradiated they saw a UFO blocking a road stopped got out of the car um it fried some of the paint they end up in the hospital you know serious radiation poisoning sued the defense defense department thinking it must be some DOD project U DOD swore up and down it wasn't theirs and and lost the uh uh they lost the case what year was this uh 70s or 80s I I'm not sure cash lram you know you can find it on on Wiki it's it's public knowledge but there there any images of their car excuse me was there images of their car I believe got fried I believe so yeah I look at that I I don't I'm not aware of that one I hadn't heard that one before yeah that's you know there there are a number of cases actually like that where people are um visibly uh affected and physically ill and have uh you know red marks on their skin and uh very ill and they're not well known those cases but I see this not not a car this is the burn on their hands yeah H yeah I when I say fried I mean I I heard the paint was damaged um I don't know if there's and this was
where in Texas this was uh Dayton Texas near Dayton Texas which is a couple or three hours uh west of here huh three live in pain and tear after attack by blazing UFO is that from The Inquirer oh they lost their hair damn yeah typical radiation uh effect very strange very strange and very well do recommended the doctors the medical reports are all there uh nobody has a good explanation for it and um you know there are other cases like that actually quite a few strange a lot of them are when people are driving right there are a lot there are many cases of of driving and often the car is cut out yeah engine stops um yeah one of my favorite ones is Betty and Barney Hill and uh there's a woman named Angela Hill who's a top UFC fighter and her grandfather is Barney Hill and I didn't even know until after I was done talking to her then she explained to me huh I was like what so I'm like all right next time we do a podcast you got to tell me about your grandpa I saw Mrs Hill one time on an old TV show called um truth or lies or something like that and they would put people on a polygraph test on the show they'd bring them out interview them tell your story then they did a a polygraph right there and and gave the result to the audience and Mrs Hill came out and passed it with flying colors she stuck to her story about the whole abduction passed the LI detector test and I think she'd taken them before the other the problem with I have with that is Hypnotic regression hypnotic regression is very odd right because uh you can sort of suggest memories to people I don't know what the hypnotic regression was like you know there there's a there's a problem with suggesting things to people in various States of vulnerab ability that those things become false memories it's really common like you know as well as I do right the human memor is this incredibly flawed thing and so if you're in a state like hypnosis and someone starts suggesting to you that perhaps you were involved in some incredible experience and so was your husband and this is what he saw and this is did you see something similar and then I don't know I'm just guessing I just have a problem with hypnotic regression you know you're right to have the concerns I think most cases of alleged abductions that rely on
that you can't you can't really assign any credibility to it what was interesting about the hill case was that they had a uh an individual who was trained and uh did not believe in this phenomenon was not trying to lead them to to that outcome he was a military guy um and it was before this was a thing before that's what's interesting about it the first one of those yeah so that that had more credibility since that time I think there have been a real problems serious problems with a lot of the uh hypnotic regression cases what's your take on John Mack well that you know is a in caseing point I mean I've heard that uh uh questions about that um interestingly he we explain who John Mack was sure Dr Mack was a Harvard psychiatrist and faculty member and he uh began studying people who felt thought they had been abducted and became persuad Ed eventually that this was really happening to them in some cases not all cases but in some cases he believed they really were having these experiences or at least they sincerely thought they were I'm not sure he necessarily went to the point publicly of saying yeah I think aliens are coming down and scarfing them up but I think these people are telling the truth as they understand it and um you mentioned the case the aerial case in the former Rhian Zimbabwe uh he traveled there interviewed the kids you can see this in the documentary The phenomenon um there's good coverage of that you can see Dr Mack in the movie and get a sense of him as a person he seems gentle and kind and thoughtful um but I have heard a lot of uh questions have been raised about his his hypnotic regression technique which is what he mostly relied on yeah yeah yeah that's I've heard the same the the problem is when someone becomes a Believer right and then confirmation bias they're looking for some to do yeah so easy to do and it's one of those subjects it's so for whatever reason it just hits that part of the brain that wants to believe I I don't think there's another subject on Earth other than maybe possibly religion that hits that that part of the brain like the alien abduction or UFO phenomenon does well I think it is like religion I think it is a desire to connect to something greater bigger to
the Beyond uh infinitude um immortality I think it relates to all those things and there's a innate desire people have and that is going to influence a lot of the reporting yeah I think you're 100% right and it's uh it's unfortunate that we don't have like a lock down rock solid lie detector test where you could give it to someone and go how much do you really remember like tell me what you remember let me see inside your brain yeah I think we're pretty close to that actually yeah I think there are some tests now that um they're not being used for that purpose but the government's done a lot of research and I think there are things right now where they can see kind of understand what you're thinking as you're thinking it and observe how the brain acts when people are lying versus when they're not lying I've seen some writeups on some of this write you're hiding stuff bro you know things can you tell J pretty sophisticated you start laughing too come on you're deep in the government you know uh I hope so I hope they do have something like that but would that how would that do with F memories though like cuz they can plant memories into people's heads that's right so they might see the brain reacting as though it were either lying or telling the truth but you'd have to probably be further down the path than we are today to know whether that could be a recalled memory right um you know whether that's all you're observing maybe an implanted memory yeah memory is just so shaky and when when it comes to something that's so extraordinary like seeing a UFO I mean I've never seen a flying saucer or an alien but I could imagine if I did I would probably be so overcome with fear and excitement and emotions and all your your brain is short circuited I can only imagine trying to decipher that and then if I had to sit here and explain it to you and be completely honest about my experience boy I don't know if I could you know I don't know what I would get out of that how much juice I would squeeze out of that I uh I've never seen a UFO myself uh the closest thing I've had to something that might be that shocking and and terrifying was being charged by a grizzly bear oh and I went into it you know sort of a dissociated state I think you know everything kind
of slows down and uh you're sort of thinking in the back is this really happening or am I in a dream and um you know your mind goes to a different place when that happens right and all the adrenaline turns on and you know your body automatically does a whole bunch of things to protect you and um I I would imagine that happens to these people when they when they see something what close up we were hiking in Wyoming my wife and I and she was ahead of me on the trail and um all of a sudden and I was trying to make noise once in a while and I was hiking with the bear spray in my hand because I was taken that threat very seriously and all of a sudden there was just spine tingling roar I mean I'm coming to kill you right now you are so [ __ ] dead it was it was I've never heard anything like it I wish I wish we had it on a recording somewhere because it's not like what I've ever seen in a video or heard anywhere else it was the the epitome of ferocity you know and so this thing starts charging up at us we're up on a on a trail on a hiking trail and I just slip off the safety and start getting as much spray out there as I can and it comes up on the trail and stops and looks at us and he puts his head down and like he's gauging us and I'm just standing there putting the spray out with the sensitivity they have I'm sure he was you know getting that um although he was about 30 feet away kind of at that point about theet away yeah yeah he was right there he was oh my God I think if it had been a female bear with Cubs I'm not sure that would have worked but in this case after after seeing that we weren't attacking him I guess what you know when you surprise a Grizzly they have this adrenaline gate that opens and they're full on they just go nuclear immediately not like a black bear right and um that's what happened here and um but after there was enough time lapse I think between the startle and when he got up on the trail and was getting the pepper spray and saw is that he then walked turned around and went up the trail the other way but um yeah your mind your mind does unusual things when you get in circumstances like that what did your mind do well like I said it was kind of a dissociated state I think I I felt almost uh like I was in a dream state and part of me was questioning is this a dream I because this was kind of
a nightmare situ like the ultimate worst thing I ever want to have happen my wife and I get chewed up by a grizzly bear and so I was thinking you know is this like almost pinching myself literally you know CU I was questioning could this really be happening and uh yet you're on autopilot and you're just kind of doing what you need to do so in this case it was getting the pepper spray up taking the safety off and just putting as much of that between us and the bear as I could and and not running I think years later I was talking to a uh game guy in Africa and he said uh I told him my story he had a lot of better stories than I the mine but he said well you know mate why you lived and I said no why and he said because you didn't run and uh for whatever reason we uh followed the training and just held our ground Comm Under Pressure sir good job like I say it was dissociated State I don't know if it was so much calmed as scared into uh you know doing the right thing well the fact that you were able to get the safety off and then pump the spray out there that's that's Comm a lot of people just freeze up in those encounters don't they probably I don't know that much about it I think the mistake some people make is they have it in their backpack like all their gear they're like oh where did I put that thing you know and it's a little bit too late to be R ring around through your backpack at that point I have uh some friends that were in Alaska and they got charged by a bear they had killed an elk and they were packing the elk out and then they went back to get it the rest of it in the morning because it's a long hike to their camp and a bear had claimed it and uh they didn't realize that the bear had claimed it until it was too late and then it came charging out an enormous black bear you know the black bears in Alaska or excuse me not brown bear brown bear in Alaska they're so big because they they get so much protein they get so much fish and so it's an 11 foot Bear yeah just charging them and knocked them over one of the guys one of their friends uh actually wound up on top of the Bear's back whoa as it was running down the hill for a brief amount of time so for a second or so it was actually literally riding this Bear's back and
these guys all got out of it okay they all got out of it alive the thing ran off and it huffed it didn't I don't think understood how many people were there it was a large crew filming a television show and so as it ran off uh it went into the woods for a second and it was barking at them from the woods they all had guns but they didn't have the guns ready uh they were eating lunch at the time when they I'm surprised they didn't have their guns ready because I've been hunting up there uh for Caribou and mountain goat and other things and when you do have one of those kills when you go back to it everybody knows that bears like to move in on those and and you know they'll just sleep next to it just keep wake up roll over over and start munching again they even found bear [ __ ] as they were walking back they found a pile of bear [ __ ] near the carcass yeah some people hunt bears by doing that they'll go to a carcass or shoot something leave it out there and they just keep visiting the carcass y so I I'm surprised they they were caught off guard that way but thank goodness everybody came out a famous wildlife photographer was actually killed very recently in Montana see if you can find this champ because this guy has an amazing Instagram page um and on his last post which was just a few days before he was killed he had a really cool photo of a grizzly bear and he said he managed to get because he he had apparently been fly fishing and uh he uh managed to get that close to the bear because he had smelled like he'd been catching trout all day so the bear actually got close to him and apparently what had happened was he inadvertently stumbled upon a bear that had killed a moose and the bear was protecting the moose and uh I guess he was just trying to get a photograph of it or something the bear mauled him and just tore him apart and uh I think he died on the way to the hospital I think he had a stroke it's uh it's these these grizzly bears are terrifying totally unlike our black bears in the East yeah our black bears are slow to anger slow to move they're relatively gentle and Out West the grizzly bears eat the black bears they'll Tre your black bear and and take him down yeah uh they are absolutely terrifying if you're in that kind of situation I mean they're so
powerful so fast uh faster than a horse and a Sprint as you probably know was just bananas yeah yeah and this is why I had the pepper spray in my hand because I you know was so concerned about that possibility as unlikely as it seemed I was terrified of that it's almost like worth carrying a large rifle yeah even if you're hunt if I ever went back to to Grizzly country it wouldn't be with just just pepper spray yeah like a semiauto 300 wind bag or something something heavy but what if the wind had been blown the wrong way right exactly well my friend John John rivet he uh actually runs a hunting camp in Alberta and uh he's blown prepper spray from a tree stand at uh a grizzly bear and he said the bear just walked right through like it was nothing cuz he was angry yeah this is funny because some of the pepper spray a little bit of it got on me and and more got on my wife because she was just in front of me between me and the bear and it took like 60 seconds before you started to feel there was a lag after you got the pepper spray on you between when it started to burn and then it would get more intense oh that's not good yeah that's not what you want so I thinking if that's doing that to me and I don't have fur and I'm not a Grizzly you know what's it doing to him but um yeah that's a little concerning too did you find the wildlife photographer Montana I found the story I cannot find his Instagram page oh what's his name Carl Mock and you can't find Carl mock wildli photographer Instagram nope sh well there's that there's that horrifying story of the the bear whisperer guy who got killed eat with his girlfriend and he had his audio running his tape recorder running while the bear killed him and ate him yeah and and then killed his girlfriend yeah I mean that's W herzog's documentary Grizzly Man have you watched the documentary I haven't watched it and uh you should you'll have a different opin once you watch documentary you're like huh like it kind of seems like suicide by bear yeah he was doing crazy stuff it wasn't just crazy he was doing what you're never supposed to do he he was also there past the time when the Bears are supposed to be hibernating so the only bears that are outside of hibernation are really desperate for
protein desperate for fat they they they they'll eat anything and they just decided I think I can eat this dude and you know and he was annoying he would get like close to the bear hey Mr chocolate like like it's it's it's the the video is the the film rather is hilarious unfortunately it's one of the most unintentionally funny movies you'll ever see like because the guy first of all um the man really loved Bears there's no doubt about that and had a deep respect for them and all all those things are true but also he's like a comical kind of a guy like uh like he would like go up to their poop and go this was just inside of her oh my goodness it's still warm this is amazing I love you I love you and the bears like they're just trying to live they don't give a [ __ ] about you like they don't love you back like they have these dead eyes these shark eyes you know and you've looked in re yeah you know they they are predators they are dangerous wild animals they are not your friend they are not your buddy I don't care who you are you know it's cool that they're around I mean it really is it's an amazing thing grizzly bears anaz any bear they're amazing but you know be careful absolutely right and there's a lot of horrifying stories and every year this happens to people I me it's not yeah an occasional thing and it's you know 10 or 15 or 20 people every year yeah a couple weeks ago uh a guy got chewed up in Yellowstone a guy got his head chewed up by a s and I think that guy lived fortunately but he got mangled you know it's just they're so fast and so powerful my friend John saw one kill a moose through a scope he was looking through a and he saw this bear chase the moose and SWAT it on the back and he said it literally broke the moose's back I I can believe that just imagine that I've seen um video of a female Grizzly whose Cub got swept away in the current and washed down in front of a big male who is fishing for salmon and the male swiped at the cub and sometimes the the males will kill the Cubs and eat them yeah and the the mother went after him and it was much like what we experienced uh when we were hiking you know it was just nuclear she was all out he was bigger than her she didn't care she attacked him with everything she had
drove him across the stream chased him up a hill and you know it happened just like that and uh life yeah it's it's overpowering you know there's when when you're in that circum St um yeah you better have a way out or a gun or something it was just I think human beings have such a distorted idea of our place in the food chain I really do cuz we're so you know we live in houses and we drive in cars and we fly in planes and we have guns and you know and we can go to the zoo and see a bear but when you're out in the woods and there's no rules and they're acting on the laws of nature I just don't think most people have any idea aide what that life is like their life is just ruthless and short it lasts for like you know if they're lucky they get 14 15 years out of it and by the time they're dead they're just all their bones are [ __ ] up and their face is torn apart by other bears and you know and they kill things with their face for a living that's what they do yeah and that's one of the things that terrifies people about this UAP issue that right we're top of the food chain we're the alpha we don't have to worry about that we're control of of Our Fate and then like oh my gosh well maybe we're not why did they change it from UFO to unidentified aerial phenomena the stigma trying to get away from that loaded term and know part of the term the problem with that term is that people don't hear the unidentified part they think automatically you mean alien spaceship right they say Do You Believe In UFOs well yeah I believe people see things they don't identify they can't identify but that's not what people are thinking that you know that's not what they think they're asking you so people wanted a term that was a little more neutral is the worst case scenario that they are beings from another planet or another dimension or is the worst case scenario that these are things that China has developed or Russia has developed and they're so far technically Superior to us that we we can't even imagine that's interesting because both situations in a worst case could lead to a similar outcome the Chinese are employing Ai and information technology in a truly orwellian fashion they are creating a state in which they can monitor what virtually every
conversation people's movement people's uh employment their location they've got facial recognition detectors they've got every cell phone has got like a patriotic scorecard on it which they can download at a at a checks checkpoint and as they continue to perfect that and Implement that you you get a vision of that seems very alien of where you extrapolate that out 20 years you've got absolute power and control at the top like a dysfunctional Hollywood sci-fi movie so it's conceivably almost as bad as the worst case scenario of of aliens coming in um I don't know what should be worse when you think about space and this infinite Ocean and the shores it washes up on and the things that are in the shadows out there you know there's no end to to where where your imagination can go um so it's hard to hard to compare but uh I don't think either of those would necessarily be a happy happy scenario well I would think that best case scenario would be aliens because we would hope that aliens would be more enlightened than us we know Chinese are not they're just humans you know we know the Chinese people are no different than the Russians or than the chians or the United States people they're just human beings right human beings are incredibly flawed and we're territorial Apes with thermonuclear weapons right that's what we are we would hope that these things from another planet are far more advanced than us technologically and hopefully far more advanced than us spiritually the way they commun maybe they're not warlike at all which is why there's been no stories about them attacking and killing people or you know blowing up bases or doing anything crazy when they've been chased by Jets they they seem to be completely benign in that respect so I think the best case scenario would at this stage would be that they're aliens does that make sense yeah it does make sense and I I think uh that would be the hope and furthermore that they would impart a lot of this information to us and technology and ways I don't know but but terms best case scenario would be that they are benign like that and they want to help us yeah and um so that's you know that's what we' all like to believe the help us part maybe but show us the technology but we're still
us the problem is we're still us we're still ridiculous the human animal in just in general amazing beautiful incredible Creations wonderful creativity but also frightening in our anger and our ability to lash out and attack I would hope that these beings that can travel across the Galaxy would be far past all that stuff that's best case scenario because if it is Russia or it is China you know they're going to be like we look I'm a proud American and I would like to think that the way we behave and the way we uh have governed in terms of uh the way we've used our superpower although not perfect has been better than if it was communist China that was in the same there was CCP that was in the same position I would think that we've done a far better job I I would think that we we're we're certainly not as Draconian in the way we treat our our citizens we certainly don't do things to our citizens in this current age the way they did to the weager Muslims there's a lot of things that I like about United States but if the United States had the kind of power where they could just travel through the Galaxy and they could just show up outside of nuclear bases in China and do whatever the [ __ ] they wanted and just disappear into the ocean and we were the only ones that had it that would disturb the [ __ ] out of the rest of the world right even though we are the preeminent superpower we even though we are you know we're the number one military power on Earth right now currently for for the time being right I wouldn't want us to have that kind of advantage over the rest of the world but if anybody did I'd want it to be us but I definitely don't want it to be China right absolutely not and that would be the worst that' be worst case in we monitor the and Russians very closely very carefully we spend I think the unclassified figures about 70 billion per year on the intelligence program Intelligence community and it would be very surprising and it's stunning if they had independently develop technology that was that uh far ahead of of everything else and everyone else um somehow secretly so um it doesn't seem likely and uh we don't think that's the case so more likely
ultraterrestrial or extraterrestrial this is the conundrum it we don't see any evidence that it's the Russians or Chinese or anyone else and don't have any reason to believe that they have technology that that can perform in that manner so you know that's this is the problem where where where does that drive you right where does that drive you um what about the possibility of the things that Bob Bazar did talk about whether you believe Bob Bazar or not the thing Bob Bob Lazar talked about that's fascinating was this possibility that we have obtained some extraterrestrial craft and that we are in the process of trying to back engineer it yeah that's a that's a really ticklish question for me and awkward uh you know if I were to say yep it's true nobody would believe me um if I really knew I couldn't say yes and um and yet so it's it's hard hard to to give good answers to that question I think it's plausible I don't I don't say that think that people should uh roll that out it's a legitimate question to ask there's enough um information to suggest something like that may have happened we may have recovered some debris so what information um well for there's some books about Roswell there's there's some other cases like that where people have come forward and said I was in the military and I was at this you you know retrieval I was a kid and I saw this thing crash and I ran up to it and I saw what was inside it and blah blah blah and um there are some uh in fact there's some investigation going on right now on on a new case so uh it's not an off-the-wall question it's it's a legitimate question I think the way it would probably play out in our government is that it would be so deeply squirreled away that um you wouldn't be able to bring in the best scientists you wouldn't be able to bring in worldclass scientists you would have available maybe a few people inside some Aerospace company and they'd probably be very hamstrung in their ability uh to to test and examine the material and so forth and you know it just be locked away somewhere that's the argument for Bob Lazar because Bob Lazar at least on paper is not a top scientist he was a guy that had not the best credentials in terms of his education but was clearly a
very intelligent guy who was fascinated with propulsion systems put a jet engine in the back of his car and he was kind of a wacky Super Genius dude he was just a little off and when you think about his description of how they ran the program it's even more in line with what you would do with something that was incredibly top secret whereas everything's compartmentalized the Metallurgy people didn't talk to the propulsion people the propulsion people didn't talk to the whoever else was on the project I I'm not saying that um there's no reason to believe we might have some recover debris I'm skeptical about some of his claims yeah in particular multiple full crafts right didn't he say there's like nine of them yeah and and different models and things some of the things he say don't don't sound like the government that I know like 21 levels of you know I had 21 levels of security clearance Above Top Secret or something there's no security system like that that that I've ever heard of um so there things like that that don't make sense from somebody who's been an Insider but um is it possible that there might be something like that when it gets to a program that's as bizarre as back engineering extraterrestrial vehicles that they might put in place additional levels of to top secret clearance especially when you're talking about compartmentalizing all these different aspects of the project that's not really the way it works the way it works is that uh it you know they could make a special exception in this casee and doe has something sort of like this they have a alphabetical system with tiers of of more classified stuff doe is Department of energy okay so you know in the classified World you've got the intelligence community and it has its own procedures and so forth then you've got defense department black Ro programs which are a different world and there's a little bit of overlap and a vent diagram sense and then you've got Department of energy which has billions of dollars in Black programs tens of billions and very little oversight so they have a they have a system and a different clearance which is a result of the atomic energy act not an executive order which establishes the classification for the
rest of the government so uh something like that's not impossible it could happen now the Roswell story is a fascinating one because there was an uptick in UFO sightings or at least reported sightings that came after World War II and the idea is amongst you know the UFO cogniz Senti is that they were aware that we had detonated nuclear weapons and that we had blown up Hiroshima and Nagasaki and they're like okay these crazy [ __ ] are they're taking this to a new place Let's uh let's zoom in and uh see what's going on down there and then they started visiting us yeah I mean that's that's story um that's plausible to me I mean if there are aliens here why are they here what are they doing right and when you look at the behavior of the objects that we're seeing it's consistent with the possibility that maybe somebody has an interest in something here they want to protect and if we were to have a nuclear war it might compromise that interest so maybe they have a stake in some resource here or some capability or genetics or just whatever maybe it's an experiment and uh petri dish somebody started a long time ago they want their experiment to run to its conclusion I mean that's an interesting perspective there's so many possibilities when you start going down that path I I think um probes that are you know artificial intelligence probes that have the the capability perhaps to manufacture or print robots or beings or maybe even genetically create something when it arrives at a destination is conceivable right they could travel through space for hundreds of years or thousands of years arrive at a destination consuming very little energy the hallway all of a sudden boom and they create on board some some beings that can can operate things and perform tasks that are short live for that purpose monitor interact collect report there's all kinds of uh of possibilities that are within the bounds of of science um yeah the imagination runs wild right it does yeah and when you think about what's happening currently with human civilization if you take it from the Advent of the nuclear bomb to where we are today with this weird situation with Russia and China and the and just even
almost like a Civil War which is potential potentially possible in the United States as well like we're in this weird volatile stage of our development as a civilization maybe that that's a feature of evolution maybe when biological creatures go from being a thing that lives tooth and Claw like a grizzly bear to eventually developing shelter and then eventually developing some semblance of civilization to eventually developing Advanced civilization and space travel and all this other maybe along the way there's this real possibility of [ __ ] the whole project up and that it happens all throughout the Universe and maybe they've observed this maybe this is a stage of development that we are being given training wheels and maybe a little bit of a helping hand by our extraterrestrial Brethren who are okay they're there they're right there they're at that nuclear part Let's uh let's keep an eye on these [ __ ] that would be a nice benign view I I'd love that and it's possible that even by acknowledging this phenomenon if we got to the point at some down the road where our government said wow this there really is something from off-planet coming here it might uh help to resolve some of these differences and disputes between different countries uh might compel us to collaborate more to see ourselves more as as one species one people and not you know Chinese versus Russians versus Americans it would certainly stimulate a lot of um uh technology much as the um uh the space program did after they uh saw the Sputnik and people got afraid of the Russians in space and they're ahead of us and it actually led to cooperation it led to to progress and Technology a lot of good things so I think there's a possibility that that this could go in a very positive direction that's that's what I would like to think now Roswell as a case is really interesting right because there's a lot of witnesses there's a lot of people that claim to have seen things and the stories all kind of meshed together from Jesse Marcel to all the the different people that claim to have seen bodies and different people that saw caskets to the person who worked at the mortuary who was the contacted the funeral home
that was contacted by the uh the military and told to make small caskets there was all this weird [ __ ] that goes together now whenever you have a story like that that becomes a legend for sure there's some [ __ ] involved right there's there's got to be some well we the Air Force lied initially and they've now admitted they lied so you know there was let's explain that CH caner so uh Congressman shiff of Arizona uh took up the the case um decades after the fact and asked the general Accounting Office to investigate and they confronted the Air Force and did a lot of research and the Air Force story that these were weather balloons crumbled and the Air Force did a a deep uh inquiry of its own and produced a big book saying I forget what the title was but essentially they were saying it was actually a classified experiment that was designed to detect nuclear explosions in the Soviet Union so they admitted that their first story was a lie and their news story was well it really was balloons but they weren't weather balloons they were part of a top secret experiment right so they've changed their story once and you know is that now the the true story or is it actually you know something else right and why would they change your story like what is why once you li why tell the public like what benefit could be gained from telling the public that the initial 1947 story was a lie well I think they were trying to explain some of the discrepancies and hopefully this would put it to bed um maybe it's just the truth um I you know I don't know uh what the motive was behind it um if you're skeptical you would say it's the cover story they're trying to cover their tracks that's where I'm at I'm skeptical yeah I don't blame you we know they lied about it the first time well the first the report I don't know where the report came from but it was reported in the Roswell Dilly record right that they had recovered a crash Flying Saucer oh it was actually reported more widely than that I think it was like announced over the radio and across the country and then the next day they said it was a weather balloon and that's where was was was that when Jesse Marcel says he was told to bring in this false debris and say that this aluminum foil and all this crap was from a
weather balloon that's right and uh I mean I will tell you I've I've never said this before but I've been told by multiple people who have credentials and access that there is some truth to these stories um so uh I don't discount this when people say this I've had people tell me you know um people that have uh substantial you know scientific or military credentials that they believe is true so I encourage people on the hill to pursue it you know they've got a they've got a they've got a task force going right now looking into this trying to understand what's happening these restricted military areas if you're opening that up you know ask all the tough questions ask about the the military bases and the nuclear weapons ask whether there's any anything buried somewhere whether there's there's materials that we have um it's been a long time I think the people can handle it the public it's their government it's their money um I say go for it you know let's find out the truth get to the bottom line where do you think that stuff could be if they did really recover well you know we have a number of candidate places so you know there Area 51 there's right P there's Edwards there's a whole lot of places depending what you were doing with it if you wanted to just squirrel it away there's uh um the facilities not too far from here in the southwest that are you know you dispose nuclear waste and other things so there's a lot of possibilities but wouldn't you like who's got the key and who you know and that person's dead right for so we're talking about several Generations like how do you get the golden key here we got people from 194 seven that were in the military and they were adults most likely dead now right yep yeah we're talking 70 years later not too many World War II vets around yeah so what how does that torch get past like and do do they Trot out new scientists occasionally when they' sufficiently compromised them on Epstein's Island we have an amazingly dense complex security apparatus and um it really know some people say oh you can't keep stuff secret a long time that's not true at all we keep lots of stuff secret for decades and you know there are reporters in DC that think they've got the inside track and they
know most of the secret stuff people who think that are clueless they they really have no idea yeah I think it's pretty delusional to think the government can't keep secrets like a crashed UFO it's pretty delusional the F-117 and the and the the B2 bomber you know when they rolled the f117 out it was already operational up at tonopa and it was a a mission ready unit they were flying and the people were shocked all around the world people had no idea so this thing had been built there were tens of thousands of people involved in the production the design the deployment and you know there are many smaller things that would be much easier to conceal for a long time what gets compromised and leaked is usually like foreign policy stuff and a policy maker can see that he can use it to his advantage in a debate over you know should we bomb around or something and they'll leak that but weapons program stuff almost never leaks why do you think that is it doesn't have press value um it's often very technical there's no advantage and also almost nobody knows about it the policy makers don't know about that stuff so they will they're recipients of intelligence products and Reporting but even the when I was in the government people in the National Security Council and at that time the director of Central Intelligence they didn't have access to the black programs at DOD there was a case where I had a request from the National Security Council for access to some programs and I took it back to the building they said no that's the president's own staff if the president wants it we'll tell them maybe the National Security advisor or something but which was this bush or Obama uh this was Clinton I believe oh because I'm think the staffer was a guy named Richard Clark famous uh counter terrorist adviser on the NSC staff who was carried over so at that point possibly it was Bush and Clinton was trying to find out some information about UFOs correct like there was heard publicly he he talked about it on a talk show I believe yes he he has said that I have no inside knowledge of of what he has done or who he's asked but I've heard that he did uh ask one of his confidants to dive into this yeah I
wonder how much they tell the president because like you think well the president has access to all the information and then you look at Trump and you go maybe not they don't have access to anything close to all the information and they don't need it and they don't want it you know most the secret stuff is not sexy or interesting or particularly you know is though in our system I mean if that's really legitimately the commanderin-chief that's the commander-in-chief of the greatest army of the world's ever known but you can't know a lot of [ __ ] it's not that he can't and he can get brief anything he wants but he would spend the first he could spend the first six months doing nothing but looking at secret programs and getting briefed on him and it's just not worth his time to be getting briefed on yeah this is how we made the battle armor on the tank but let me ask you if you were the president wouldn't that be the first thing you would ask there was some stuff that I would immediately what would you do yeah I uh ah good question so I'd want to get I want to know the department of energy I'd want to know all their special programs is one thing I'd want to have a sit down with the director of operations at CIA I'd want to talk to I'd want to review the wav special access programs section 119 of title 10 that most of Congress is ex Ed from reporting to it's a very high category of of DOD programs um there's some things like that there is a briefing the president gets of course shortly after being elected it covers a lot of the you know strategic nuclear warfare some some of the key top secret things that he really needs to know has to know should know um and then you know there's a category of things that are like should we tell them or not yeah you know I mean there's there's too much stuff obviously to convey so they've got to pick and choose some things are no-brainers other things are judgment calls what do you think the doe could be working on uh well I you know some cases a lot of it what they're doing is good stuff they're trying to secure the weapon stockpile and they're trying to to make sure that now that we're not testing
anymore will these things still function as they were designed and they can do incredible computer modeling and that kind of thing but you know Doe's got its hands in a lot of different areas in terms of uh Power and prod production and other kinds of things and I'd be uh very interested to know uh they don't seem to get much oversight unlike the defense department and the intelligence Community they have a lot of oversight from Capitol Hill for example uh doe I don't think just necessarily discloses its black programs to its oversight committee the the energy Public Works committee I don't I don't know how that works over there I'm not sure they get the same I don't think they get the same level of review how are they incentivized to innovate well they've got a you know being you know as they operate kind of in secrecy yeah a lot of what they do is not not all the Rd is in secret they're doing a lot of uh good stuff related to energy and power and solar power and stuff that's public open source um it's really mostly nuclear weapons related stuff that is secret that is really really close hold but that can cover a lot of grounds there's been a lot of innovation that's an example where no the public doesn't know shouldn't know we wouldn't want that information to be released a lot of the details of that it wouldn't be in our interest The public's interest um and there's a lot of stuff going on there and it was for me the one sort of pie that I didn't have a lot of deep access to I had some access to those programs but I had a much more prolonged and uh uh intimate relationship with the defense and intelligence Community now if if you became president and you wanted to find out more information about uaps or UFOs or whatever you want to call them how would you go about doing that that's an interesting question too because where would you start yeah because they it's so convoluted these things um I would start at the agency and uh and the Air Force that's where you're most likely to Define these Define these things if if if there's a program like that uh that's most like where it is and how would you even get to the right person cuz the number of people that have all the
information has to be pretty small so you'd have to be real careful about who you have lunch with yeah um when you worked in the field a long time you get some ideas of where to go and who to talk you got an idea who to go and yeah ideas yeah yeah yeah I know where a lot of The Bu around offic what imagine walking around with that information though imagine being a guy who's walking around knowing that somewhere in the middle of the Nevada desert there's a UFO that definitely came from another planet it's being guarded 247 and if the public saw it it would shatter their belief in reality yeah crazy I I'll tell you a story that you can judge how it Compares but this is something that happened to me in real life that was crazy so I was one of the handful of people was told there's a nuclear weapon in New York it's going to go off in the next few days we think and there's another unlocated we think it's heading to DC which is where I was living with my family so I'm walking around for days you know running to people in the street my neighbors how you doing you know get the hell out of here and you're not suppos you can't tell any tell anybody anything I had my family quietly you know relocate but um turned out the source thankfully was wrong but it was one of those kind of situations where you're aware of something or the possibility of something that is going to just freak people the hell out if if they found out about it for good reason it was a very uh surreal experience Jesus yeah that's that always begs a question like if you knew that something was going to happen that was going to destroy the country what do you do you can't even tell anybody like what's the point like if an asteroid's coming here and it's going to land smack down the middle of Chicago well see that was an interesting case there right because they didn't warn New Yorkers to evacuate why didn't they do that because they didn't want to panic I think they made a decision that the Panic would be awful and there'd be casualties and they didn't have certainty that it was there but that would be a terrible policy decision to have to make yeah you know do we tell people to evacuate or not if you tell
people to evacuate there's probably going to be incredible panic and all kinds of not just disruption but people are going to get hurt and probably some people are going to die um in a panic like that what do you do if a you UFOs coming like what do you do if they spotted something they've got some sort of satellite image of some Mothership that's 15 football fields long that it's headed our way do you even bother telling anybody do you let it just show up there's no protocol for that that I know of I I would think you would want to try to establish Communications I I think if we actually got to the point of saying yeah we're monitoring things now we're seeing where they're coming into orbit we're seeing where they're dropping down from orbit and we're seeing this pattern these are ships they are craft they're Vehicles they're intelligently controlled what do you do about it one of the things you might want to do is try to establish some kind of communication yeah um I'm sure you're aware of uh the astronomy Professor from Harvard the chief of astronom Dr Avi lobe and his uh assessment of that object that went through our solar system that he believes it's extraterrestrial in origin that it's 90 1% a disc 91% possibility that some sort of a disc that it's 10 times more reflective than any other uh object like it that we've ever spotted in the solar system and that it's moving far too fast away from the Sun for it to be something that is it's that it's not affected the way we would expect it to be by the Sun's gravity that seems to indicate that it's uh something of extraterrestrial origin what you think of that it's interesting I have read that since then a an alternative has been identified that that many scientists think clears this up that explains those anomalies and he identified a number of anomalies um one of the things I found interesting though about it is here's an object um maybe discarded maybe it's just an artifact a solar sail that somebody didn't need anymore and it fell into a orbit around our son but if it was a uh some kind of a craft as some people theorize um think about how inefficient that is compared to a probe in our atmosphere compared to these things that we're
seeing routinely um this thing past you know it may have taken hundreds or thousands of years to get here and would you want to design and build something that after traveling for hundreds of thousands of years it spends a few days at a great distance from interesting planets it just kind of whizzes by and then it's gone well isn't it possible that this is one like look at what we're doing on Mars right have this drone that's buzzing around on Mars and this the Rover isn't it possible that this is like an early stage Intergalactic spaceship that's now just filled with skeletons it's possible uh what I what I think is interesting though is we have this uh very uh persuasive and compelling evidence of intelligently controlled vehicles in our atmosphere yeah that are actually maneuvering which this thing was not and and are behaving in ways that you might expect a probe from somewhere else to to behave including the fact that it's doing radical things we don't understand that seem like magic so if you apply that logic to say the Nimitz case I think it's even stronger I think it's harder to explain the nimit case than it is uman Mana yeah amanam Mano though well my take on it is like you know you could go to someone's barn and find a model t or you could drive down the road and see a Tesla you know they various stages of technological Evolution it just because we have these amazing things like that Tic Tac that are somehow or another here and operating it doesn't mean that something else I mean if the if we're right about the amount of goldilock planets that are out there and we're right about the infinite scope of the universe it's it's possible there's a shitload of civilizations we can't compare their technology it's almost like comparing the technology of human beings on the same planet to people that live on like North Sentinel Island right the the the people that are isolated the small band of uh human beings that uh live in this uncontacted tribe if we go oh yeah andam sea yeah so compare them to people who live in you know Los Angeles it's kind of silly right he makes a compelling case for that um it is a it is bizarre that it the shape of it and the luminosity and so forth NASA has now and Congress has agreed that they should begin looking for things
like that techno signatures evidence of alien technology and this is another one of these ironies that that NASA has said in Congress said yeah that's entirely possible you should go look at that stuff but oh my God if it's in our atmosphere if it's if it's that close no that's crazy right even though it's happening you know our military is encountering these things and we're getting movies of them and radar tracks um you can't it's very difficult to get anybody to take that seriously to get interested and get involved even when they look at video like there's there's a weird video I don't even know if it's legit but it's a weird video of a a thing in our upper atmosphere it's it's moving and then it takes a very hard angle turn away have you seen that thing before I'm not sure which one there's so many out there and that's a common uh kind of occurrence these right angle turns you know yeah that's the thing it's like it's almost impossible with our it's impossible like there's nothing we have that can move like that no way and you not at high speed yeah you'd have to imagine it's either faked like some faked footage that shows these things CU for sure there's a lot of fake stuff you know there was that one guy uh from was it Denmark where was that guy one there was one guy from another country that made a lot of fake UFO footage oh probably the Swiss yes guy yeah yeah yeah yeah he's kind of hilarious yeah there's a number of these Fabricators and of course they've polluted the whole Space yeah I know some guys that are trying to create an AI capability that'll screen all these videos for signs of manipulation and being hoaxed Etc so you can have a a better sense of confidence and the ones that get through that process yeah because there's so many out there and some of them could be really interesting but you have no way no way of knowing what credibility to attach to them generally are there any ones from other countries that you find credible like videos footage like was there um wasn't there some uh images or video that was taken over Mexico City wasn't there something there is an interesting one for the Mexican military um don't know much detail about that i' I've seen it
there have been a lot of sightings in Mexico and in South America uh there was a a sighting off the coast of Chile which I think uh they found an explanation for um it was a apparently a drug plane that was exuding a lot of uh uh of its fuel probably because it was uh trying to disguise its location or I don't know change directions or something it looked very weird when you saw the the original video I think that was uh explained uh the Brazilians have tons of video um I haven't seen much of it I know that they've collected a great deal of information they've had some incidents like we did in 52 where the capital capital of the US was being overflown um they called it the night of the UFOs and they had like 23 different UFOs being seen in multiple fighter jets in the air and you know this is going on all over the country front page news so um there is some other video evidence out there for sure there's some video that we haven't released that we have U that I've seen what have you seen uh one of them I've seen a few of them and and until the defense department releases it I I can't say too much about it uh even though it's it's not classified but um they haven't released it yet but I will say there are some more videos like the ones that have been released that that they've authenticated do you believe that the defense department is going to eventually release this video that you've seen I hope so I I don't see why they shouldn't uh they've only National Security has only been benefiting from this right this was a problem that was being ignored a very real problem problem that should concern everybody how many Americans would believe that we've got craft violating our airspace routinely in military airspace I mean most of us tend to think that you know we're America we're we're the alpha we're the top dog our airspace is secure we got it locked down no way anybody's going to come sneaking in here well to find out this is going on not like occasionally but routinely yeah even around military facilities and bases that's that's shocking it's not good and you know it's hard to get traction though when that story appeared in the New York Times uh I was stunned to learn that almost nobody in Congress
asked for a briefing really yeah here's this front page story with videos you can see the UFO for yourself you can hear the pilots and they're clearly uh amazed at what they're looking at they have no idea what it is and You' think the oversight committees would go what the hell is going on here I want a briefing on that yeah Jamie find the goast video and play that cuz that's the best one to hear the Pilot's reaction cuz they're watching this thing shoot across the surface of the ocean and uh that was released in the Washington Post a few months after the the other two that were in the New York Times but it's a good video and it it it's been uh authenticated by the defense department it looks like a Tic Tac yeah uh but it's moving at a much more reasonable rate of speed much more reasonable what did they estimate the speed at you know I've seen different estimates and um there's one deun who's made a strong case that it's going like 130 mph could be right but he claims it's a balloon um is that Mick West yeah yeah mck West debunks everything yeah that [ __ ] doesn't believe [ __ ] his his debunkings are more elaborate than alien theories you know he's got civilian airliners on their sides without transponders and restricted airospace with you know three other things happening at the same time but his take on the Tic Tac is pretty silly yeah he he doesn't what B has Tak account all the evidence he he has no regard for military personnel and their experience with these sensors and these aircraft and what they're seeing and Reporting he discounts these people and he's never been one of these planes he's never operated these sensors and he just dismisses these people and that that bothers me yeah he's an odd duck nice guy though um you got it I don't know let's see yeah that's it it's not LS though is it it's no that's the gimbal I was trying to find the other one the go fast one it just did you just Google go fast 100% yeah just go fast this is it all in the same video maybe maybe could be yep that's it yep got you moving no I took an auto track oh okay oh my
gosh dude [Applause] wow so that is them trying to figure out what the [ __ ] that is yeah and by the way just imagine this is a segment of a longer video I've suggested to my friends some of my friends on the hill that they ask the department to release the rest of the video why not I mean you know acknowled that this is this is for real and they've Al acknowledged that there was no compromise it wasn't classified so why not release the rest of it and that might help us resolve some of these ambiguities because if that makes a right angle turn that's not a balloon obviously well the way that thing's moving to think that's a balloon seems does look like it's on rail road tracks I mean it's just like it's flying yeah and it's really true it's straight it's not wobbling or being buffered by the wind or no that would have to be the most [ __ ] insane wind of all time like a tunnel wind you know but the just fact that it's it looks like it's not wiggling at all it's moving through some method of propulsion that can't be determined because it's not giving off a heat signature and I mean to say it's only 150 mil hour like maybe but why would that freak out pilots who go way faster than that I mean they can go Supersonic and they're watching this thing and they're freaking out and laughing like look at that thing go like come on yeah they're weirded out by it obviously and they're probably being vectored to it by it sounds to me like they've been looking for it and somebody's been saying it's hey it's down here you know go to this place and you'll find it and then these guys finally get on it and somebody gets a lock on it yeah and you can hear that amazement in their voice so there's a lot more information about that incident and these others which isn't in the public domain I've I've been urging the uh the defense department to put more of that out there and asking you know suggesting to the Committees they might want to they ask the department to do that I don't see any reason not to an informed public is in our best interest it's in our best National Security interest and yet the overwhelming uh uh default value in in the Pentagon is you know don't talk about anything don't share
anything um even though they can see in a case like this until that information got out nothing was happening right and now we've finally getting some attention on a serious national security problem which wouldn't have happened if the information hadn't gone public and you know why not make more information public if it's not classified there's no sources and methods issue uh that you're going to compromise you know you're not revealing some super hidden capability um that needs to be protected why not put that out and and help inform people and it's their country it's their their homes their livelihood their government um and uh ultimately how does Congress make decisions about how to allocate resources if they don't have the information of what's going on and you know what the possible threats are and this is from none of this information was getting to Congress so there was no opportunity for them even to uh uh to take any action they were completely kept in the dark on this until um 2017 that's pretty crazy I couldn't agree more um what video that you've seen is the most compelling that's been released and have you seen anything that hasn't been released it's more compelling one of the ones that hasn't been released is uh got more emotional impact certainly uh can you give us a te the UFO is going really close to this guy and uh he's freaking out um for good reason but um so but that doesn't mean that the object was necessarily uh super Advanced craft and he's going so fast know maybe it was actually moving slowly and hanging there and he went by it super fast but his perception was that something was coming real fast at him and going right between him and another guy and um it's all unclassified stuff but uh doesn't doesn't resolve any of these issues but it's pretty compelling so that there's there's that that's there's something like that along those lines the Navy has admitted there was a near midair Collision safety report was filed uh that's all public information uh and I think you know again it's frustrating to see this this attitude of you know we've got to lock every everything down we've got to classify everything right away even if it's a guy with a with an iPhone yeah
and you know it's not a secret sense or anything uh you don't have to worry about the source um you know because an informed public more of the scientific Community will get involved uh they'll bring more expertise to Bear uh and people have better better assess this this issue and whether something needs to be done about it cuz right now almost nothing is being done about it they've got a tiny task force with a few guys who are trying to collect information and write a report for the Senate and I think what's going to be significant about it is it's due next month they're not going to be able to say what project Bluebook said which was there's nothing really happening here there's nothing of National Security interest there's no advanced technology just beyond what we have uh Blue Book said both of those things he said not only not only is it not ET but we don't see any uh mysterious technology and um we don't see any reason to be concerned from a national security standpoint I don't see how this report can say uh any of those things so I think when that you know assuming they do deliver the report and they acknowledge that this is happening it's continuing to happen they have other classified information that should be weighed and factored into their unclassified judgment and Report that's released they won't give the details but the people that write the assessment of this well should have the knowledge of that and I think if they do a straightup job they're going to have to acknowledge that there is there are indications of Technology more advanced than anything we possess and that um there is a legitimate national security issue so that one video that flies very close to the pilot that's the one that you find to be the most compelling that has the most I think emotional impact on people I I think the gimbal video when you understand that there's a a second Fleet of of of UFOs that are maneuvering near those guys in addition to what you're seeing there and and the Pilot's reaction and the maneuvering that's probably the most compelling um the Fleer video that we haven't talked about much does show this instantaneous acceleration which is another thing that that we don't have we can't do we don't have anything that can sit there hovering and then just suddenly you know
and the Fleer video was the one of the Tic Tac correct that was the the Tic Tac correct see if we find that f l iir correct correct what does that stand for forward looking infrared radar okay um and this is again this is after Commander fraver had spotted the thing correct so so this is it there's two aviators in those f18s there's a a pilot and a weapon system operator behind him and there were two f-18s that saw the nits with with two people in them so that's four aviators all seeing the same thing in perfect conditions toggling through different methods of viewing this thing to try to get a better right correct perspective a better view of it yeah and he been following what was going on earlier in the day and wanted to go out and try to uh get on this thing um you know gungho Navy pilot and uh all of a sudden it decides it doesn't want to be there anymore so what we're watching for folks who are just listening is he's toggling also from looking at it uh in looks like 1X and then he goes and Zooms in occasionally he's going back and forth what is he doing here he's trying to get a lock on it uh and uh that will that will enhance his ability to track it and uh he's not able to do that he's his system is not able to get a lock so he keeps trying and then all of a sudden just kind of that's bananas just got you know do we have any estimation of how fast it was going when it did that we do um we're talking thousands of miles an hour um the scientific Coalition for UFO research has a website and they did a very uh deep analysis mathematical engineering guys um on the momentums the g-forces the speeds and they're all crazy I mean some of the g-forces they g-forces if the speed estimates are right that are probably five times greater than any we've ever built could withstand I mean it would just shred any aircraft any missile any rocket that we've ever built they're so far beyond the to design tolerances and limits of systems that we make that it's crazy so that image or that video alone is probably to you the most compelling uh I I think or the most I think actually the the most compelling case is the Nimitz case because you have so many witnesses and so many sensors and the Fleer is part of that but you really
have to look at the whole case you have to talk to all the pilots involved which I've done uh you have to talk to the radar operators on the different on the on the Princeton there's also radar operators on the e2c Hawkeye which was up there monitoring this getting sporadic hits and then you have this third F-18 that goes up and takes that video so there's a lot of different information from a lot of different sources and the thing is it's all perfect L congruent it all hangs together nobody's contradicting anybody else's story and what people are seeing is what the sensors are reporting so that case overall is really the the most compelling to my to my mind it's just such a strange occurrence when all those pieces align together like that too right where you have the nimts you have Commander fror you have the other ship and all this all this information about this one thing that they track on this one day and then they say they've encountered multiple ones of those over the last few weeks you talking about during the nimit around yes they were tracking numerous uh objects that were moving off the coast of California and the coast of Mexico they were descending from probably the sort of Maximum detection range of the of the egis uh Cruiser there which they were seeing some of these things starting to appear in their radar like 880,000 ft they have a low radar cross-section so most conventional Radars couldn't even track them certainly not at any kind of distance uh so you know you don't know how high were they coming down from they picked them up at 60 80,000 ft but where did they start what was their initial entry point into the atmosphere uh if they were exoatmospheric at some point but we don't know that but we do know that they came in very highs and then were able to drop you know like um down to 20,000 ft in a matter of you know like a split second Dro down to 50 feet when when Dave fraver appeared on the scene later that uh craft was was hovering at 50 feet over the ocean uh so they had this incredible performance range there seems to be unlimited time on station they don't seem to be running out of fuel they seem to be able to just go all day which of
course our aircraft are not able to do at these insane speeds and maneuver unlike anything that that we know of or understand and no heat signature no heat signature no wings no no exhaust no air intake you know what is its means of propulsion right if there's no there's no air intake there's no exhaust there's no heat signature and going supersonic without making sound so there's some theories about that which uh are are not uh validated yet there attempts to explain that by manipulating space-time in the immediate vicinity of The Craft that could potentially explain how uh the contents could survive the g-forces because they wouldn't be subjected to them and why they wouldn't uh it wouldn't make sound as it uh make a shock wave as it cross the sound barrier and lots of other um factors associated with this phenomenon there are some plausible explanations explanations consistent with science as we understand it but it's it would be really exotic technology and Way Beyond anything that we even have on the drawing boards and so by saying that it manipulates SpaceTime is there any theory of of how something like that could be constructed something that could manipulate space time yes there's something called an aluer drive and uh this is a physicist who developed a theory it requires insane amounts of energy to do it but it would enable in theory if you could construct something a device that could do that to essentially uh cause this object to act like it was falling and so the people on board if there were people or whatever is on board wouldn't feel those radical uh g-forces and the object would slip through the atmosphere instead of instead of like penetrating through the atmosphere be more like the atmosphere was sort of in front of it was opening up as it as it moved along now there was a paper that I saw just a couple weeks ago that challenges that theory um so perhaps that particular theory is is no longer uh in good stead in the physics Community but there are some alternative theories along those lines and of course there's just so much we don't know so um what we do know is what we're observing and that's really the key is and that's part of the problem with this debate is we've got to start with the facts the theories have
to be consistent with the facts the facts don't have to be consistent with the theories so I mean you know we work in that direction we take the facts and we try to come up with hypotheses consistent with that but too many people look at this and they say Well it can't be this and it can't be that so the facts are wrong you know this is what some of the debunkers do they start with the premise that it couldn't possibly be any of those things so he must have been seeing a bubble on his windshield and you know these guys were having a mass delusion and oh by the way the radar operators were mistaking some weather verion and you know they just keep adding on as necessary uh new conditions which they have no evidence or proof of none of these things have been identified by anybody that none of the debunkers have said you know it turned out that was United Airlines flight blah blah blah or it was this boat or that somebody's drone right these things all remain unidentified well whatever that is the way it moves off like that in in that video in the Fleer video like try explaining that right you know Chad Underwood I've heard him on a podcast described that event and uh I actually uh sent it around to some people because uh he debunks the debunkers he said he's guy with thousands of hours of cockpit time knows those systems knows those aircraft he says you know that was instantaneous acceleration no ifs ANS or butts and there's no way that was uh any kind of aircraft out there and when you hear the guy talking about firsthand about his experience and I find that generally with these Pilots when you sit down with them face to face uh you know they're not bullshitting you it's really clear they're being candid and and their emotions are honest and uh they're befed like the rest of us that propulsion system the way you described it by manipulating SpaceTime isn't that exactly what Bob Lazar said propels the spaceships that he was working on yeah don't you think that's understand it I don't it's been a long time since I've looked at his theory but I think you're right I think that is what he claims the propulsion system does but that wasn't really a public theory in 1989 was it I don't know when the aler drive uh
theory was published I don't know for sure but there were other people speculating along those lines I believe at that time about propulsion systems like that and this idea of this element 115 being this an incredibly dense but stable uh element that doesn't really exist in in a stable form here on Earth that they didn't really have uh a real evidence of this until what was like 2013 or something along those lines there was there was something that he um he did raise that issue and it wasn't until long afterward that that scientists discovered that I guess that there is uh it is possible for it to be stable for some brief period of time which I think before they thought you just couldn't right couldn't bring it together but it was just detected in a particle drive for the first time in the 2000s correct that sounds right yeah yeah so when he talked about it in 1989 it was it the theoretical back then I think it was purely theoretical I don't think anyone but it was discussed theor that there was an ele so absolutely certain about that it was sort of like the higs BOS or something like that something they a theoretical um particle theoretical idea what about life forms what are your thoughts on not just drones but alien life forms do I mean have you ever heard any compelling stories about some biological thing from another planet whether it's a dead thing or a living thing that it's been observed or that's been you know obtained I've heard a lot of stories I bet you have and um you know uh it's so frustrating in this field because it's so hard to get to the to the bottom of these and uh undoubtedly uh many of them are are not true um they're Legends but there are some that uh come from uh say like foreign military that really make you wonder um why would they invent this and be you know claiming this that you know maybe it's some guy off his rocker but there are some examples like that that uh that do get your attention that cause you to to think maybe there's something to this what has been the most interesting story that you've heard there was um there there are number but one of them involved a foreign military that uh had
several different interactions and incidents they had some some Military Officers that uh uh allegedly had some contact and a very senior officer allegedly uh there was a location according to this report where a UFO was appearing uh sort of nightly and he went out there with some of the guys and on the second or third night this thing Lo and hold did appear and he had some interaction with it supposedly and he describes this and describes uh Communications he received um but you there's no independent corroboration of it what about a body you know I I've heard the rumors like everybody else I uh I don't know anything about that I don't if I know that people claim that they've seen those things nothing beyond that yeah imagine you know come here man I want to show you something you know the story about uh Nixon and Jackie gleon I do yeah that's a great one isn't it yeah there's some yeah there other stories like tell people the story tell people the story well as I recall you probably know it better than I do but but as I recall uh Nixon confided in gleon that yes indeed we have aliens and he arranged for for Jackie gisa to actually go to to a facility and see this this body or something I think it was actually a craft a craft okay you you you know the story better than I do why don't you go ahead and then Jackie gleon actually built a house that was shaped like a UFO and uh I think the house was for sale at one point in time do you remember that house Jamie we we uh we found it online and you look at it you go holy [ __ ] like he built a UFO house was that in Palm West pal desert or I do not remember we we'll find out shortly but this uh house uh at one point in time at least was for sale and uh my wife would never let me buy something like this but if I was a single man and I was young and stupid which I used to be I would have bought the [ __ ] out of that [ __ ] house to have Jackie Gleason's UFO house that's it oh is that it yeah okay that's not what I was thinking of yeah he built a house that looked like a UFO inside of it uh apparently he was obsessed and I'm obsessed with Jackie gleon I'm a giant Jackie gleon fan yeah where was this
thing it's in New York I think yeah Westchester County yeah 12 comedy that still would work today recently for sale yeah 12 million how long ago was this 2018 no [ __ ] damn I don't want to live in New York but if I did he bought it built that in 1959 is that what it said 59 so Nixon wasn't even president look at the neighbors I wonder what they're thinking about that maybe he added let me see maybe they're horrified maybe they just [ __ ] pumped and lived near Jackie gleon well yeah when he was there I'm sure it a wild ass house but the fact that he built a wooden house that REM reminded him supposedly of this UFO I mean who knows I mean it could have been an architect that said hey I got an idea is a story like that about Spielberg if you heard that no with I think Ronald Reagan and it was one of his iconic Alien movies and uh Reagan sort of equipped to him something like yeah you know it's really true or we really have those things or something like that it's another one of these yeah one of these Legends legendary conversations um but maybe in the circles you move in you could find out I don't know dude I don't know they TR somebody bought this house in 1976 for 150 Grand wow that seems crazy know I don't know that seems crazy well what was 150 Grand in 1976 though it was probably worth a lot of money 100 Grand it was probably close to a million right still I know still house that's that dope they used to be Jackie Gleason's house yeah yeah I agree his uh his comedy probably would translate today The Honeymooners MH it's probably one of the most if you watch that show today it's still very funny I would love for my kids to see that I think I think it would still work for him he's also probably the very best pool player uh celebrity pool player of all time that's why they used him in the Hustler uh with with Paul Newman he's he was a legitimate like Top Flight pool player yeah spent a lot of times brilliant guy yeah brilliant guy interesting yeah drunk funny as hell yeah and was always drunk oh is that right oh yeah yeah that was his whole whole thing man he loved getting hammered he was hammered all the time there's a funny video of him uh when he's older uh on a golf course and he's got this crazy souped up golf cart
with a bar in it you know he's out there golf Big Life yeah living large yeah he was yeah here's the story Legend has it that Nixon and gleon uh drove to a heavily guarded building on Homestead Air Force Base where the leader of the Free World gave the guy who played the bus driver from Bensonhurst a private tour we drove to the very far end of the base in a regulated and a segregated area finally stopping near a well-guarded building gleon told UFO researcher and author Larry Warren and eyewitness to the renam forest UFO incident according to the book UFOs Among the Stars by Timothy Green Beckley the security police saw us coming and just sort of moved back as we passed them and entered the structure there were a number of labs we passed through first before we entered a section where Nixon pointed out what he said was the wreckage from a flying saucer enclosed in several large cases next we went to an inner chamber and there were six or eight of what looked like glass topped Coke freezers inside them were the mangled remains of what I took to be children then upon closer examination I saw that some of the other figures looked quite old most of them were terribly mangled as if they had been in an accident Jackie Gleason's wife Beverly gleon told the same story to the magazine Esquire in 1974 it was passed off as a publicity story for her then upcoming autobiography W about the house he made which was somewhere else maybe I don't know says Gleason's 50 foot wide Mother Ship house was custom made by ship builders in an airplane hanger and moved to Gleason's property the structure has no right angles vanent tassel's inte in in integ what is that integron in tatron was built in the Mojave Desert because of its proximity to the magnetic vortices and the relationship to the Great Pyramids okay you lost me there get nutty they always get nutty right that's the thing about UFO stuff that's one of the problems of this issue it just goes off the deep end so fast always right always I have tried to keep it on National Security and kind of nuts and bolt stuff stay away from the Paranormal stuff because it's hard you know it is hard because it goes there
fast yeah they a lot of the people that believe in that was one of the things that Terence McKenna had said about UFOs it's not whether or not UFOs are real when you talk to someone and they believe in UFOs ask them what they think about psychics ask them what they think about about ghosts you know and then you get these and you go oh you're into weird [ __ ] you're into things you're you're into the unknown because the unknown is very compelling and that's part of the problem is it's there's again this part of the brain that lights up when you can find out things that we don't know to be true whether it's Bigfoot or the lock Nest monster or or UFOs this yeah a lot of people are drawn to this you know and again it's like religion you know they it's the mystery it's the Wonder it's the yeah connection to something greater um people that are you know in the intelligence Community there was this uh remote viewing program yes and some of those people are also people who are interested in this phenomenon and were involved in it what's your take on that remote viewing stuff well you know they seem to have some individuals they claim who could perform better than than chance and could do so consistently um so of their research has been disputed uh so you know I don't have a a strong feeling but I I do know that some people have had some legitimately crazy experiences uh you know the Skinwalker Ranch there's some strange stuff being documented around there there was strange stuff documented by Bob Bigalow uh before the present owner had it um if you read the book paranormal uh you'll hear about incidents that I have uh discussed with some of the uh the protagonists in that book and it's crazy stuff and they will look you right in the eye and people with phds and they'll say yeah this guy came in the room and we said what are you doing in here because it's a classified you know facility um and the guy big guy with uh one arm missing in a in a in a hook or something and he Wheels turns around goes out the guy who's telling the story runs up and grab grabs the door and opens it there's nobody in the hallway this figure looks exactly like supposedly the figure that someone had seen over their bed the night before doe
with this you know one-armed guy spinning around and you know you say well this is insane this is nuts and these are all like sober doe people who are telling stories like this and other scientists so um it's really crazy it's wild it's curious it's intriguing some of these people have advanced degrees and they tell far out far out stories about some of this stuff what about tangible things like Metallurgy like what about samples of metal like samples of various types of metals and combinations of metals yeah now we're getting back to physical science where we can you know get grounded one arm spinning guys I'm like check please right um understand I get it I felt the same way but uh actually it's funny she mention that because there's a private researcher who you've had on the show Dr jacqu fet yeah who has some materials and I think uh he is on the verge of uh you know he's going through the peer review process and um treating it like you would any other scientific issue and I think he's going to be publishing in a peer review journal some interesting data uh before too long I think he's been working on that for a long time uh and there there so there are some examples like that that are serious incredible and some of the materials seem to have properties that are difficult to explain that suggest that maybe they were engineered not at the molecular level but at the atomic level which would be extremely uh difficult and expensive to try to replicate so he was saying that some of these samples if you were to recreate them with the technology available today it would cost billions of dollars yeah which is insane exactly so you know obviously nobody was doing that here um so where did it come from um there's also a discussion that the isotopic ratios of these materials in some cases are sufficiently statistically different from what is found in nature in our solar system that it suggests they were born in a different Sun a different star and all the heavier elements are created in these uh explosions and in Supernova that cram Infuse these you know protons and and neutrons electrons together and create the higher elements the heavier elements and um if they were you know in our solar system they all came from one
event and so iron wherever it is in our solar system will have a certain ratio of uh isotopes that have a few that have an extra Neutron or you know one more or one less kind of thing so there sort of a fingerprint with that and supposedly as I understand it some of these materials um have a different ratio than you would expect of uh metal found in our solar system at least that's one of the things they're looking for in testing for and then these composits how do they refer to these composits like when when they they talk about what these the way these things are constructed do they have a a name for this type of a composite uh well they're not all comp I'm not sure they're all composits but uh i' I've seen some of these materials and they look like they're some of them look like they're layered like they're micro machine to you know a millionth of an inch or a few hundreds of an inch or something layered on top of one another with exotic uh fairly exotic uh Metals uh bismuth and other things that you know people aren't normally using there it is yeah there's one alleged extraterrestrial material from the bottom of a wedge shaped craft in the late 1940s M so was this from Roswell supposedly or some other craft that's one Theory so I think the story behind this is if I'm not mistaken is that somebody got this from their their father who claimed he was at the site recovering material gave it gave it to the guy and this guy turned it over to a researcher that's the story I've heard it says it's made from 26 alternating layers one to four microns dark bismi and 100 to2 200 microns silver magnesium zinc alloy each of six pieces received from US Army Source were formed with a curvature that was that tapered huh yeah pretty curious stuff as far as I know nobody has identified a uh conventional source for that material or use of it um so it's not like an alloy it's a very intricate process and what would be the benefit is is there a theory on what the benefit of making things and so many layers would be well supposedly one theory about that material isite I'm sorry one theory about that material is that it uh is uh a wave guide for microwave radiation so it can actually enhance microwave
emissions um that could go right through the the material and uh if you were building a craft that was uh wanting to transmit or receive microwave radiation for some purpose propulsion or otherwise a material like that might might help you accomplish that um that's one Theory I've heard so the material might help accomplish this bizarre propulsion system that we totally don't understand you have a craft maybe that was also the shell the craft was also an antenna perhaps um uh or was uh propagating radiation from the inside more efficiently uh um I don't know uh a lot about it but that's that's one of the explanations that I've heard have you physically seen any of these scra metal yes I have I've seen what did it look like to you when you looked at it curious and odd it was silverish and um you know people were looking at it trying to think whether it could be from some you know known component to some aircraft or ship or something and nobody has identified a uh conventional industrial counterpart to it something that was manufactured to those specifications for some reason uh as far as I know so it it was lightweight it was uh peculiar you touch it in your hands I'm trying to remember if I touch that or not I think we had it right on the table so I I probably did when you say we who um well at uh to the stars there was an effort to uh uh transfer some have some of these materials tested and exploited and um we were purchasing the the company not me but the company was purchasing some of the materials to try to facilitate that so and so who was in possession of these materials that you could purchase them from uh in some cases I don't know about that piece um there were some people in the field who have been collectors or researchers and had some material just the way jacqu has probably got materials from 15 or 20 different M materials pieces from different alleged incidents one was an explosion uh of an object in Brazil for example um so there are some there are some items out on the market that they're around not many but there are a few when you saw this stuff was that the most compelling piece of evidence that you had ever seen no I I'm actually uh very agnostic about that I think I haven't seen any test results uh I'm completely agnostic
as to whether it's something that was produced on Earth for some obscure per reason um or whether it's something more exotic I'm not particularly impressed by that what impresses me most uh I think if I could point to one thing it would be the nimt case really yeah there's just there's yeah that's that would be there there's there is some other stuff that um is interesting and impressive that is uh not yet uh available but terms of the stuff we can talk about I would say that's the single most compelling thing now what can be done in terms of with the the government what can be done to study this stuff more carefully do do does a whole new Department need to be developed does does all these pieces of evidence the Nimitz case the goast video the gimbal video all the stuff we're talking about do you think this merits enough attention does this give enough people curiosity to the point where you could see them the government investing a considerable amount of capital and resources to studying this stuff on a much deeper level I do um I think Advanced propulsion uh this suggest there may be some new avenues that uh because you know there's proof of principle we're seeing something doing this it can be done and there's some theories as I mentioned like the ubir drive and others uh probably ought to be putting some money on those investigating them looking at them um I do think there needs to be some organizational home for this there needs to be an advocate somebody who is monitoring this and uh fighting for some money for it in the budget not doesn't need a huge amount uh somebody to send the reports to you know people right now they've temporarily got this task force uh that was established but when that goes away if there's not some enduring entity left behind you know where does all this stuff go and does anybody care about it or does it just do we go back to the status quo anti or you know it just falls on the floor and nobody cares so I think we're getting to the point I hope we're getting to the point where people are saying yeah these not we can learn a lot from anomalies in science that's one of the the ways breakthroughs most St that occur right is some anomaly that is baffling uh like the procession of mercury in Einstein and Newton's
theories couldn't explain that was this weird outlier and then he came along with general relativity perfectly explained it Bingo there's some strange anomalies going on here in our atmosphere worth our attention and yes we ought to be studying it and there ought to be a centralized place where the stuff comes together and uh you know maybe a federal lab kind of a thing I I'm not an ad of big new organizational structures and throwing billions of dollars at things I don't think you need to but I think we could more effectively coordinate space related research for example in R&D than we do today um so we have doe Labs um for nuclear energy and nuclear power we don't have something like that that universities and NASA and the military can work with uh on the space side so something like that that was flexible that would give people a chance to partner from different backgrounds and you know Academia and so forth uh with the government uh is probably something that we could benefit from is this something that's plausible is there enough interest in the government to in the government currently to do something like this to make some new Department I mean could it be justified Department not like no not like the new Department of energy or agriculture not not the whole new Department no this would be uh within existing entities which enti you think probably DOD um there's already so much capability and authority and responsibility there and there are some people in the community um that are standing up actually and saying they want to be involved there are some people in the in the military in the defense department that would like to uh get involved in researching this and how many people have to be involved to do it correctly how many people you think would have to be involved like say if they put it on you they said listen nobody knows more about this stuff than you do how do you go about doing this and how many people would need to be involved and where do you start and how do you observe these things and could we be doing something to maybe observe more of them to maybe absolutely yeah what could we be doing to observe more of them so yeah there's a lot we could do and I don't have a precise number for
people but I could tell you some of the things I'd be thinking about wanting to scope to drive a number so one of the things we haven't done yet is go into these existing databases from these incredible collection systems like the ballist ballistic missile early early warning system and if they've seen UFOs they're not reporting it but their systems are optimized to look for very specific kinds of things like an ICBM and they want to reduce clutter so the other stuff is not displayed to the operator people in the op Center don't even see it but it's in the database there's a lot of databases like that where if we just pulled the data and had some contract run it we might find some really interesting signatures and patterns which would then help us get a handle on the phenomenon and where we ought to be looking going forward so that would take some money to get some contractors to do that there are a number of different systems that I would want to do that on the space based infrared system the global acoustic monitoring system some other systems Global acoustic monitoring system that would be what would that be doing so that is uh listening for low frequency vibrations in the atmosphere and it's a it was built and designed to detect nuclear weapons tests and I understand that it also detects meteors and bides and I've heard rumors that it detects other things that that they haven't been able to explain I haven't been anybody get anybody to take a look at that yet I've suggested that to the to various people in the government you know you might want to go talk to those guys look at that database I don't think anybody has but there's a lot of systems like that that are incredible we have the public you know look at the uh the moving x-band radar if you could bring that up um c-based xand radar uh or the DARPA Space Telescope um there's a this the the dood space fence uh there's amazing capabilities out there we're not even you know mining that data do we know has anybody ever said these things make a sound people have said they've heard humming sounds at close range that kind of thing um that's but but never a sonic boom and occasionally sometimes it's like a swooshing sound um I would say that the sort of hum or vibration like a
Transformer a number of people who've been close to these things have said it's made it sound like that like a Transformer did Bob Lazar ever say that it made a sound I don't know I don't know I've not not had that discussion with them so that would be how you would you would you would use but in in this case actually it's the movement through the atmosphere it's not the it's not like the transformer noise it's just the size and velocity and the air that's displays creates this this wave in the atmosphere but that was what I was ripples through the air asking because of this unusual propulsion system that it's that we theorize they have that they some might not make that kind of wave yeah not make any sound at all you're right you're right they might find nothing there it's a good possibility but I my thought is we''re paid for this stuff already why don't we look we got the data you know let's take a look and these different databases and then you might find ah this system and this system are showing us some really weird stuff and we see things in orbit and they're coming out of orbit they're going back to orbit and we don't know what they are we got to focus on that that's really interesting um we we could probably uh plausibly spend a reasonable amount of money and uh make a lot of Headway and trying to identify what are the signatures that these things give off that we can then begin to track with this huge system that we have uh that's that's Global and in outer space uh then I would want to spend some money on propulsion and probably have some money you'd need some money for uh testing some theories um the nuclear weapons issue that you mentioned uh monitoring our nuclear weapons if that's going on and there are a lot of reports um supposedly in 1973 it's a story I just heard the other day from a from a foreign correspondent during the 73 War when we went to Defcon 2 um in Australia UFO appeared over a uh Davy communication system for for submarine launch ballistic missiles and just hovered for about a half an hour again unverified but you know this is the story well if that kind of thing has any plausibility in these reports about interfering with with RS abms you might set up a collection event when you know
we're going to be moving some things because it's a pre-planned exercise or something so maybe you you keep an eye out and set some special collection of just in case something does get triggered by that or happens that would be pertinent to the Chinese and Russians uh as well I mean that would be nothing would be higher on their collection list than trying to understand any kind of new technology we had having to do with nuclear weapons so you might learn something again not saying it's aliens you you know it would be worth doing do we know anything about the way China or Russia views these things not much uh the both countries have active UFO groups and the government seems to be connected to both of them and allowing them to exist and maybe encouraging them uh probably getting some intelligence from them they read our papers and they they may well listen to this podcast for example they've got some people trying to figure out what's going on with the Americas have they really got this technology or is this from somewhere else uh at least that's uh part of what what appears to be happening but they certainly have had their own incidents and uh over the years um we've been told about that and uh one of the famous incidents that we had actually during Blue Book occurred in Russia and it was a US senator who was visiting Russia and he and some of the staff while they were in Russia it was um uh it was one of the Senators it was a majority leader or Speaker of the House very prominent us politician who was on a a rare Cold War visit to the Soviet Union and saw this flying saucer from the train he was on and other people there saw it that that was one that went into the Blue Book files uh so they you know certainly have had incidents as well so it is there another country that has uh a strong interest in UFOs besides China and Russia that we're aware of yes uh France has had an official UFO investigative group for probably decades and small office small budget but they every year take say the top six cases from the police and the military and analyze them and bring in some scientists and engineers and see what they can can make of that
um so they've been doing that for a long time and there have been years where they've had more UFO reports at least per capita than we have really yeah uh this is very much a global phenomenon so uh they've they've been having these experiences for a long time since the 40s or 50s and they have a more open-minded approach to it they do I I would say it's the stigma that we have doesn't exist at least to that degree over there they're more objective scientific their UFO groups tend to be less fantastical um and more sort of focused on on science um seems to be quite a bit of a different attitude and approach over there so if the president had uh listened to this podcast and took an interest in this and wanted to have a conversation with you what do you think you would tell them I would tell I would focus on how to get the answers to the to the key questions to get to the bottom line and the truth who you need to talk to who you need to get on the carpet and uh and put it to and so you can really get to the bottom of this thing and you think that we could make some progress in that direction if we were if we took the right steps I think I think certainly if we did some of the things I was talking about we'd be better off we'd gain some new knowledge and insight where that takes us is hard to say you might you know different directions they could go but we we'd be better off for it um minding these anomalies can be very profitable and uh I've suggested creating an office called the office of uh strategic anomaly resolution so when our increasingly technical intelligence Community detects things that are really weird and anomymous like this business of these beams that are you know we're hitting the people in The Havana Embassy and you need some really smart technical people you've got something just really weird you have a sort of group of scientists and Engineers who are focused you can take these kinds of things to and they can figure out what to do with it or where to take it did they ever figure out what those beams in The Havana Embassy were nope not to my knowledge and it's happened now recently in DC near the White House According to some
recent reports explain that to people what it what it is we're talking about is employees of the um of the US government in Havana uh mostly but elsewhere um in addition to to Havana uh have started feeling uh very ill um headaches a range of symptoms loss of energy and it seems that they have been targeted with some kind of a uh RF weapon some kind of electromet magnetic radiation from a distance and we do know that the Russians in particular have been developing devices like that for decades and they used to use them on our Embassy in Moscow all the time uh for different kinds of collection purposes different techniques so that's suspicious Cuba is a country where they could uh plausibly test something like that and have a degree of deniability um they've got you know freedom of action down there they're still one of the few supporting governments that supports the the regime there so that someplace they might undertake further testing in in a real world setting if they wanted to um it's something that could be mobile and um not clear what the objective is whether it's to uh make people sick or whether is this incidental they're trying to get stuff off the computers and the people just happen to be close to the computers and they're trying to you know put a beam through there that scrapes energy off the screen or something or you know we don't really know but uh it it see there seems to be a pattern to this stuff um my friend Mike swick shout out to Mike swick uh he used to uh work for the I think it was the Secret Service and they had an embassy and uh Moscow and they detected um these devices that the Soviet Union had installed inside the walls that were listening devices that were powered by the movement of the building in the wind interesting I remember I don't know if that's true that's what he told me Abes that make sense it does because he said it was so sophisticated and it was so beyond anything that we had when we were building the new US Embassy I hope I didn't [ __ ] that story up Mike told me it a long time ago I I know that we found antennas embedded in the concrete of the US Embassy as it was being constructed the new Embassy that brought the entire construction to a halt the
thing listening device this it yeah okay let me heard it before you've heard of it before yeah I think we've even maybe talked maybe that's why CU here known as the Great Seal bug on the first covert listening devices or bugs to use passive techniques to transmit an audio signal was concealed inside a gift given by the Soviet Union to w aaral Harman United States ambassador to the Soviet Union August 4th 1945 because it was passive needing electromagnetic energy from an outside source to become energized and activate it's considered a predecessor of radio frequency identification technology I don't think that's exactly what he was talking about he was talking about these bugs that were um they were actually powered by you know and the wind moves a you know like your you have a watch it's an automatic watch you move your watch and that's what Powers the watch they've been exploring all kinds of things like that and we actually it cost the US taxpayer hundreds of millions because halfway through the construction of the new US Embassy they found in the concrete forms antenna shapes that we made no sense to us we didn't know what the hell they were and weird designs and shapes that were they were intercepting some of our stuff and modifying it or using construction people outside of our super Vision to to do this and they had other things with the pipes and the wires and you know they had all kinds of attacks on the embassy yeah and some of it you know looked like uh physics that that was hard for us to understand so I'm not surprised by that story someone recently claimed that uh they that about the pyramid things that were flying over the ship that it was Vlad That's that was uh some Soviet guy said it was Vladimir Putin's creations or you know the Soviet un he has uh claim we have validated the fact that he has developed a nuclear missile that is kind of like imagine a nuclear cruise missile with Incredible range and uh maneuverability um so that's something I don't know how much success they've had with it but they really do have a project like that and they have done some testing uh so there have been some advances under his uh under his time they're under his tenure but uh I don't know I don't think i' I've not heard anything about triangular objects you
know no I'm I'm sure it's like it's Vlad former senator says no question UFOs buzzing over us warships are from Russia the former Senator condemns the Pentagon for admitting it cannot identify the strange object so this is a former US senator oh it's Harry Reid do you know Harry Reid I do but not well but I I do know him so he believes that and he's a big UFO supporter right big believer he is he he's tried to solve this problem from from the Congressional side of terms of the lack of interest of the US government by putting some money on it which created this atip program the advanced uh Airborne identity threat program Advanced Aerospace uh threat program so uh he's been involved for a long time been very curious about this wanting to see some answers um but he has been very active extremely active well Chris this has been a very enlightening and interesting conversation and I I really appreciate your time um and I really appreciate your openness to discussing this stuff all because I know it does for a person that's a you're a serious person it's it does open you up to ridicule you know in my community I don't think there's any doubt that uh that uh there people making jokes about me behind my back and that kind of thing but you know I knew that was going to happen going into this right and to me it's there's a princip Le here a very uh cherished principle and I think you just have to do the right thing at the end of the day what you believe in well I also think there's enough evidence at this point in time and thankfully because of the New York Times article from 2017 it's loosened a lot of the stigma attached to it and a lot of this like we showed the gimbal the Fleer the go fast video This is Wild [ __ ] and if we can't explain it you can't just burrow your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist amen that's that's my uh that's my view as well do you have any I know you're no longer with uh to the Stars Academy do you have any official uh role in this stuff anymore nothing official I stay in touch with people and try to help when I can and and that's about it all right man well keep us posted and if any new information comes out and you want to break it you're you're always welcome okay thank you Joe thank you sir appreciate you very much man thank you
thank you goodbye everybody [Music] [Applause] [Music]