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I'm in a room listening to everything go on and just hoping she's alive that was the hardest night ever 140 cups three World Cups four European championships and 12 International goals Alex Scott always allowing me that platform to see things learn things about the world that I know was making me even more hungry and to keep that I needed to keep doing well at football and couldn't speak growing up because of a speech impediment how did that impact your life there's certain things I I just can't say but it's almost I found a habit of just laughing at myself before everyone else laughs at me here I am getting nothing but pure hate death threats and abuse I can't do this anymore my dad had this dark side so my protection was to try and love my dad all I can and all those darkness and the demons will go did that work [Music] scared they could ruin my Dad's life [Music] before this conversation starts I've got a favor to ask from you 74 of people that watch this podcast frequently haven't yet hit the Subscribe button and nine percent of people haven't yet hit the Bell to turn notifications on the bigger this platform gets the bigger the gasket so if you could do me one favor if you've ever enjoyed this podcast please hit the Subscribe button and turn notifications on without further Ado I'm Stephen Butler and this is the Diary of a CEO I hope nobody's listening but if you are then please keep this yourself [Music] foreign [Music] we sit here in East London today yeah and your story starts in East London as well take me right back to to East London when you grew up in some when was that 1980 Something 84 84 yeah take me back well instantly even when you say East London I'm smiling because I have so many happy memories and the feeling that it gave me a sense of community everyone looking after you even though it's surrounded by struggle and hardship it makes me smile East London instantly I can go to
playing in the football cage because that football cage was a freedom for me it was an out it was an escape it allowed me that football cage allowed me to start dreaming of a world that I don't know that I never thought that I'd be able to see or imagine but in that space it gave me that when was the first time you'd watched a football match how did football come into your life I don't actually even remember sitting down to watch a football game on TV because both my mum and dad they weren't athletes so it's not a thing that would sit down and watch a football match but in that area that I grew up in that football cage was everything it was the community it was where people came together and I think that's how I got into football and that's what I liked it gave me that connection to other people so for me it wasn't dreaming that you know I wanted to play football be a professional footballer that wasn't it at all it was a sense of a safe space in that football cage and feeling at one with everyone else in the neighborhood escapism a safe space why was that a safe space a safe space from a home environment the football cage was fun I could smile you felt free and then home it was like I was locked in it was an environment where it was very much controlled controlled by your father yeah tell me about your mother and father my mom a woman that is an incredible person full of love full of softness and just a light around her that wants to do everything for everyone before herself doesn't even think about herself you know doesn't even see the person that she is because ultimately that was taken away from her my dad even though I see the love in my dad I wanted to love my dad so much I was a daddy's little girl but he had this dark side
and that's the side that we saw our lives growing up when was the first time you you recall seeing your father's dark side I can't put in an age to it to be honest but I was there mostly what I can always remember that you saw this love inside and I I always say the drink but obviously the drink helps it come out a lot more but I just you could see him turn like he's thought so what he was going through in his mind that's how he took it out on I'd say all of us more so my mum but yeah it was just for me it was just sad because I could see this good in my dad that was there when he smiled when he was listening to music and that's the side I just always wanted to see and was begging to to stay there but it wasn't in that home was you your brother and your mum yeah these memories how old were you when you started having these memories about this other side of your father well he left when I was seven so from the moment from a baby from two three I could see and feel you can feel it the environment that we're in that you're not allowed to do something because if you do step out of line you know what's going to happen and you don't want that to happen what's gonna happen when my mum would go through the terror the helplessness that you can't do anything this is yeah so you're living in fear you're living in fear every single moment and so high then the football cage becomes your Escape for me did you did you want to go home after school after yeah owners go home to protect my mum I wanted to go home to put a shield around her to be strong for her even though she was doing the same for me and my brother but it's like you wanted to protect
someone but how can I I can't so my protection was to try and love my dad all I can to keep trying to bring that side out of him if he has the love then maybe he'll start loving us in that way and all those darkness and the demons will go did that work no no he swear because I sit here with you and then say it is dark and straight away it's hard for me to talk about because I suppose I've hid it for all this time it's easy not to talk about it but even though there's so much Darkness there's so much I remember the good times with my dad I remember going to the record shops and buying vinyls and coming back and dancing my Dad loved his music I love my music because of that so there's so many things that yeah even though all those dark times I know because of everything that I've gone through I am the person I am now you have to take the good bits and the bad bits and it's what makes me me you said earlier that your mother had been she'd had her personality or the the goodness taken from her alluded to the fact that it was taken from her what do you mean by that because every single day you see my mum walking on eggshells she's scared to have a voice to say something because she knows what she's going to go through so that light that is around her and the woman that she has been that outgoing personality that you know everyone loves my mum she doesn't see that because it's been stripped she views herself as a coward where as much as I try and tell her she doesn't see herself like that she's a coward for staying with my dad for those years for not leaving earlier for her kids so as much as we see errors an amazing woman she doesn't see herself like that one bit still today it's still today still today she's she's scared with my book coming out because I finally told that story she scared that her friends are gonna
look at her in a certain way like I said she calls herself a coward where I had to see the woman that's so full of Courage and the strength and the vulnerability that she's shown her whole life for us for me and my brother in the book you you talk about two Vivid memories you have of that time and one of them being the day your mother did speak back to your dad at a joint birthday party yeah yeah do you still remember that day yeah yeah what happened that day Steven we had the most amazing birthday party it's hard because there's not many things that we've celebrated or those moments and I don't even know how this party came about whether it's for me and my brother or is my dad throwing a party because he was a big character you know everyone loved Tony Scott he had this way about him um but we ended up having a birthday party in the local community me and my brother and just yeah the music everyone was dancing and that's where you I could see my mum you know she was the life and soul of the party just her energy was so infectious and then party then ended in the community center we went back to the flat where I grew up in and then it was just exactly it's a tone that I know all too well that no one else knows apart from me my brother and my mum when he asked her to go and get some lemonade she was in the middle of a conversation so a natural no totally you get your lemonade and it was that icy tone when he repeated it and she said no again it's hard because I'm looking at you but I can see I can see so yeah then straight away I know what's coming as soon as everybody leaves that night he doesn't forget so then we all know what's going to happen my mum might have been brave enough and forgotten that moment because she's having fun she's having a conversation with her friend that was the hardest night that one you know the thing about the book is we've never had the conversations so my mum is trying to survive
for her kids and then I'm in a room listening to everything go on and just hoping she's alive but she doesn't know what me and my brother are doing or feeling until I've wrote the book in those moments did you speak to your brother about it no you talk about being awake at night hearing what your father's doing to your mother and never knowing if your brother was laid there thinking and feeling and hearing the same things you never looked over at him never spoke to him about it yeah he was in the Next Room I had a little box room that was everything and then as there's a silence the next day you're not allowed to speak until you've spoken to that's the environment we've grown up in so all you have is a look or trying to catch a Feeling and our feeling is mum's alive that we've still got a mum for at the moment when you woke up the day after that birthday incident that party incident yeah and you should I didn't sleep I didn't wait so yeah and you saw your mum what did you say sadness what can she do someone so hurt that every time she moves it hurts I heard everything I heard her tried to run and then so then as a five six year old well I just want to hugged my mum but we can't you can't hug her but no why wasn't allowed to show love I suppose that's why I suppose like a word like control is easy to say isn't it I suppose until you break it down and understand that's the control like we're not even allowed to show love or hug or speak really you so the day the day after that incident you're not allowed to go over to her and hug her no
your dad has told you you're not allowed to go in her car yeah what's the consequences of you if you hugged her that time it would happen to me and my brother and did that happen to you and your brother yeah if if we spoke back if we didn't obey orders if you show love emotion you're not being strong you're not showing that you're strong right just get on with things last night happened you just get on with things when when you look back and you've talked about this in your book as well about how in many respects that served you becoming a football player and it made you a little bit more I guess resilient shall I say um but when you look back at those early years and you see how emotion was disallowed or squeezed out of you are there were there words spoken that told you emotion was not a useful thing or was it just actions and behavior where did you where did you lose that sense of emotion and love and affection and for me I always had it I know from a kid I just wanted to give love okay or see the light in someone I wasn't getting it from my dad or my mom was showing me in a different way I know I wanted it I was craving it I remember my best friend Regan going around to her house and they're Huggers everything's so affectionate it's even I would like freeze like this she'd hugged me and I'd just stand there like oh my gosh I don't even know what to do what happens in this moment and she laughs about it to this day and still to the same it's hard you know I don't hug my mum like I want to the other day it was her birthday I was like all right mum little hug and pat on the back love you and then like she feels awkward I'm kind of awkward because that's how we've grown up we don't know how to do that I find it easier now because I've gone through the process of learning that and that it's okay but then when I go back into the environment to this day I don't I can't I don't think I've ever hugged my brother because that's still that environment it's hard because
for me I feel so lucky I've you know this career football now in broadcasting I've traveled the world I've educated myself in such a different way surround myself with people that are affectionate I love that I love giving love to other people and then I go back into that environment and straight around like this again it's like that Frozen and it's hard because I've been on the journey doesn't mean you're ready for it that I can try and bring it out of you or I can baby steps but yeah and I guess that environment is still a trigger so you haven't you haven't recovered in that environment yeah you know it was so I for me it's kind of happy but it's so interesting also is my niece lives with us we've had her since she was two living in some with my mom and my brother at home in East End she gets it all and I see that through my mum through my brother for all the love that they didn't have or the hugs they give it to her which is beautiful like you said but they still can't do it amongst themselves that makes sense the other the other moment you talk about in the book is the day that um your mum told your dad to leave yeah yeah she said she found it Inner Strength Manan had recently passed away um sudden and it was hard for my nan this story from my mum um because she knew what was going on even that wasn't spoken about your nan knew what was going on yeah um and then yeah as soon as she passed away a sudden heart attack my mum found her strength to say no that's enough's enough um and she finally told him that that was it she said to me she was Finding ways she'd gone to someone like a homeless shelter or something to see if she did run would she be safe and then would they be able to then collect us afterwards so she was trying to find ways to leave the environment but she then always couldn't because it came back to me and my brother and then yeah that day she finally enough was enough said she just didn't care she didn't care what would happen to her or whatever but she knew that this couldn't go on anymore for the sake of me and my
brother did she tell you what she said to him no I just remember getting the shout to come down the hallway me and my brother marching down and then waiting for an order or something and then him saying that we had to choose that he was leaving and we have to choose there and then right then whether we live with mum or live with Dad and me just looking at my brother like what and he's making us choose like right then and I knew something had gone on because mum's got her back to us so obviously something had happened on her face or because she couldn't look at us it's a pretty disgusting situation to put children in isn't it to get them to pick a parent because regardless of the and you talk about this as well in your book is regardless of the the abuse you still love yeah both parents right yeah there's my dad like I say like I see that like this smile or how he is and how can I feel just sad like even to this day when I'm thinking about him I'm just like you know I suppose he's just sad I don't want anyone to feel sadness you know so I remember in that moment like I was always it's always my mum I was always going to pick my mum but it's the thought that my dad would be lonely as well how do I have why do I have to choose like in that moment would you have chosen for things to stay how they were hmm no no so you would have chosen to just go with your mum yeah yeah but it was just trying to process as a seven-year-old that my dad might feel lonely and what happens to my dad but no I need to protect my mom I need to be strong for my mum I need to look after her hmm and then your dad's leaves he's gone no just leaves leaves with everything Furniture everything not that we even had a lot to take but it was still just you know you make do you get by but yeah he took everything Mom let him take everything too because then he didn't have a hold over her anymore
oh yeah and you stayed in the house we stayed in the house yeah what was life like beyond that point I think that's why I'm so lucky Stephen I had football I had that out I had something to focus on you know so I'd Escape into a different environment that gave me structure where I think for my mum and my brother it was it was a lot harder you know you're still processing my brother and I suppose this is where it hurts my mum because she puts a lot of blame on herself we went from a controlled environment which very much I was still in control but a disciplined environment with football is very different and then so my brother totally went the opposite way for someone that had been controlled and in that environment he then had a freedom but he didn't know what to do with that freedom my mom didn't know what to do with him so I think it was harder it's been a lot harder for my brother when you say it's been harder for your brother what's what does that look like in reality that I'd say even to this day he doesn't know himself or what to do his purpose carrying guilt you know we talk about strength and stuff is I know it's very different for men him feeling that he should have been that protector maybe you know when he looks at his baby sister I've managed to make a career or do something and he looks at his life and what has he done do you have these conversations with him no we we can't we've not had a conversation about anything as a family we can't sit down we don't know how to there's not been a conversation about anything are you close in a different way you know when you hear stories of brothers and sisters and like that love we have for each other is so strong but in a different way is protect him from afar
would do anything for each other and be there but it's not a pick up the phone how are you sis what's happened what's going on in your life but no matter what you'll just always be there for each other what do you think that is why do you think there is such a distance because you don't know how to communicate we don't know how to talk when all of your life from all those age that age Gap when my dad was in the house we didn't learn anything I've gone away from that and taught and educated myself differently but my mama and my brother's still been in that I felt a bit guilty actually because I remember going to therapy learning all of this learning my behaviors learning then to deal with my emotions and talk and they're like great go and do this with my mum my brother you know we'll start opening the conversation but then actually it took my mum back to a place that that hurts her you know and I did that because why oh because I was ready you had you had a conversation with her post therapy and it hurt her yeah it's bringing up all the stuff that's still so Raw that she's never dealt with you just got off with life it's what you do right let's put a plaster over it you get on with stuff the mentality get your head down and get through things but actually you're not dealing with it are you it's still there it's still raw and it will show up it'll rear its head in very ugly ways at times if it's unaddressed because it's still controlling you it's just controlling you from like the back room somewhere that's what I almost think in terms of like domestic violence and what goes on I think we deal with a lot of stuff till when the person has left the environment right but then a lot of the work needs to start afterwards also like those conversations actually dealing with those emotions what next instead of like oh they've gone can get on with life actually you can't because it's still there it's inside were you ever jealous of other families
no you won't never jealous no I was like I feel I'm lucky I've had everything for my mum I've had the love they care her doing everything she can you know so I've never looked at other families and I feel lucky I've been invited into families that have shown me love or taken me away and had that but ultimately for me my mum is absolutely everything she's done everything she can I won't be here this person right now if wasn't for everything that my mum has done for me in my life comparison can sometimes make us feel sad though because it's uh what comparison does is it gives us these kind of false expectations of how our life is supposed to be going so we look at another family and we oh look at Christmas they're all sat there and they're all they're dancing around the table and they've all got their little crowns on their head and you know and then we look at our lives and go you know maybe I wish I had all my family here and we could we could have these moments you ever felt those kinds of things I know I have I spend I spent quite a few Christmases on my even in the last couple of years I think last year I was alone on Christmas people don't really know about that but I was but because my family is quite dysfunctional so getting them all to be happy in the same place is not such a simple task yeah so sometimes it's just easier I think I just flew to Portugal on Christmas last year you know it's so interesting you say that because I find myself removing myself from those situations that I feel uncomfortable with so same thing Christmas I want to escape because for me it reminds me of sadness so it's not comparing to other people's families and the happiness and everything for me it reminds me of sadness so then I'd rather remove myself travel away be away in my own thoughts then sit for it and see my mum's sadness something that I can't change in her it's like as if I'm still failing to make her happy in those moments and that's hard for me so it's never comparing to other families it's just that I feel helpless in trying to help my mum
that hurts have you always seen that as your responsibility to cheer your mama to keep her happy because you talked about rushing home from school to try and protect her and and now now that you feel like you're failing her I don't know if I've like ever thought about it as a responsibility I don't know I think it's just something that's me that I've always I'm a helper I want to help people I want them to be happy I want to do everything I can for someone to bring joy to them I don't know maybe it's because the upbringing I didn't have much of that or something I don't know so I haven't I don't know I've not seen it as a responsibility but I just I want her to have a life that maybe she's missed you know and bring her that light back in order to do that she's gonna have to confront some of the things that bring the pain back as well though right so we see it so many times in our friends and and people that you know they've been through something you know it's holding them back from living the fullest life they could live today but in order to to unlock that fullest life they have to go back through some stuff and bring it out into the open and you see I see it sometimes with my friends where I know they don't want to go back there yeah but if they don't then they're gonna there's a risk that in my view and who's who the [ __ ] am I to tell them about their lives but they're going to end up missing out on the like the fullness of Life yeah so it's this battle it's like do you want to keep on keeping on and just keep it in the back room and live a live a less full life or do you want to go back there and do the do the hard work to try and unlock your and it's a battle and it's like a fit yeah well what is it face to face see the fear and face it and do it anyway like I'm of that mindset like it might be scary but I'm still going to do it I'm still going to give it a try but then I suppose everyone doesn't have that mindset today like in order to move forward or see into the future you can't if you're still driving looking in the rearview mirror like not dealing with all the
past stuff behind and then so for me I think I've got to a stage like why am I talking about this in a book or you know it's been hard for all this like I've hidden it how long up till now I've never spoken about my upbringing or what's going on in my life until this book until this moment why was now the right time because I think I'm I've learned a lot about myself I'm older I'm Wiser and I'm don't want the heaviness of it anymore you know and I actually ultimately wrote it hoping that my mum it frees my mum you know it's part me but hoping that this finally frees my mum and she can move forward from it all now I'm okay you know Ronnie's done okay for himself you don't have to protect us anymore like let us look after you you're an amazing woman when you write this book and you're you know your mum knows that you're going to be sharing this with the world what are those conversations like to as I guess at some point you might have had to read this book to her or tell her about the certain parts she read it oh she read it yeah she yeah I'm being just a biased mum but she loved it um but she found it super interesting because once again I've gone through a lot of stuff that I've not spoken to her about that she didn't know about me because once again I've always been trying to protect her so when I've gone through stuff my first thing is I can't tell my mum because I don't want her to panic about me you know she already been through enough so I can look after myself so her reading stuff she's actually learned a lot about me my emotions how I deal with things that have come up and an outing like I said that when she was going for all of that stuff with my dad she didn't know what I was in the room doing that I didn't sleep once because I'm listening just to make sure that I can hear her move in the morning heaviness use the word heaviness you didn't want the heaviness anymore
yeah what is what is that what was the heaviness carrying all of this not speaking about what went on hiding it every time I'm asked about my mum or my dad in interviews because I think if you look back at everything that I've done as soon as this topic is brought up about my mum I get emotional because straight away someone doesn't know just talking about my mom and me saying oh it's amazing straight away I'm picturing everything that went on that why I think she's amazing but I can't tell you that you just hear me get emotional and then I change the subject but like I said I suppose through learning how to communicate better and understand my emotions I just want to be free like I want to be like I want to move forward in my life not having any of it anymore like I'm at a stage in this point in my life where I'm ready to enjoy this stage this next season you know use the word earlier on patterns what was the symptoms of that heaviness how did how did you start to see it manifesting in your behavior shutting off from life shutting off from dealing with emotions pushing them down not letting anyone in to help me when I need help not talking to anyone just I'm always okay just carry on what's next what happens next yep I can do that I can do that doing everything for everyone else around me but actually I just need someone to do something for me being like okay you offering help I'm gonna say Okay instead of saying no to everything because I can deal with everything which ultimately that's where people talk about me and the trolling and you know the trolls pushed me into therapy no they didn't you know it was just that stage on top of every single other thing that I finally was like I need to talk to someone this is all too heavy for me to deal with like I'm in a dark place and I can either carry on in that dark place or actually I can do something about it this is post your footballing
career yeah went into broadcasting it was a lot a lot of events had happened in my life I didn't even know until I wrote down in a book like a timeline and I'm like [ __ ] I wonder why I bloody ended up in therapy because I hadn't dealt with any of it I just kept going you know that's been a mentality and a trait that's the pattern I'm okay Alex is always okay quick word from one of our sponsors I've got a tip for all of you that will make your virtual meeting experiences I think 10 times better as some of you may know by now Blue Jeans by Verizon offers seamless high quality video conferencing but the reason why I use blue jeans versus other video conferencing tools is because of immersion their tools make you feel more connected to the employees or customers you're trying to engage with and now they're launching one of their biggest feature enhancements to impact virtual events so far called Blue Jean Studio I actually used it the other day I did a virtual event using the studio which I think about 700 of you came to TV level production quality all done by one person with very little technical experience on a laptop so if you've got an event coming up and you're thinking about doing it virtually check out blue jean studio now let me know what you think because I genuinely believe I know this is an advert and I'm supposed to say this but I genuinely believe it's the best tool I've seen for doing really immersive simple but high quality production virtual events quick one it's so crazy that in the last couple of months I've had so many people tag me on Instagram even on Telegram and in my Twitter DMs in a picture of them starting their heel journey and it's one of the most amazing things in my life that I get to do a podcast which of course needs money to to fuel and I have a sponsor like you who I genuinely believe is going to help every single person who starts their heel Journey change their life because this podcast the central intention of this podcast is to help people live better lives and we get to sit here and I get to promote to you a product which has not only helped me change my life but it's going to help millions of people and is helping millions of people live a nutritionally complete life it's so it's such an
incredible product and for me the reason why it's incredible is because it gives me my protein it gives me my vitamins minerals it's plant-based it's low in sugar gluten-free it does all of that in a small drink that tastes good there are other products there's Foods there's the hot and savory collection many other things but for me this ready to drink is the absolute savior of my diet throughout the week where I'm moving at such Pace look I don't want to labor the point but if you haven't tried he'll give it a try and if you do tag me Instagram wherever you try it give me a tag anyway back to the podcast one of the things we didn't talk much about yet is um which I think would be a surprise for a lot of people is that you couldn't speak for for many years growing up because of a speech impediment yeah this matter talking to you chatting away yeah yeah and then working in broadcasting but when you know speech impediment is is something you know you've gotten over the speech impediment and you went to like speech therapy from what I understand yeah the thing that's probably you know I assume would stay with you for life is how that makes you feel about yourself in a you know what I mean because it's you know you've over overcome it but the the thoughts of um struggle or maybe like not fitting in socially or being a bit insecure about things can can lingle long after the the solution's been found when you look back in your adult years has did that impact your life how other people viewed me I didn't feel like my voice was important or I wouldn't be able to get what across what was going on in my head it's now you say I'm over I'm not like it's just I I can hide it a lot better or I know that okay I have to reword things or I memorize scripts for instance or I'm practicing them so when I get on camera I know that word that's coming up I can't say I've practiced and practice it but then I go to say and it still it doesn't work because I just can't articulate where the words come from um even earlier today before I was having a juice in and I asked if there was I can't even say the word cinnamon
or something whatever the spices in it are there's certain things I I just can't say but it's almost I found a habit of just laughing at myself before everyone else laughs at me or then just not finding my voice not speaking out because I'm scared that it won't come out the way that's in my head I know like my brain works so fast like I'm always thinking 10 steps ahead of everybody else but I can't get it out how bad was it for people that might not understand what it's like to have a speech impediment when you're younger foreign because you go back to the environment that I I grew up in it was actually then easier for it not to because you're not don't speak until you've spoken to just easy not to speak so which actually then full circle then my mum didn't detect it till later on because then I just wasn't speaking because it was in that environment where I wasn't really playful or speaking out anyway um so it's not until then and then having to recorrect it but then I'm in an environment with someone who I'm sitting with and I can feel like the love or they're caring for me so then I think it's just a game right that I can feel something from you that you're invested in me which is totally different to that what I'm feeling of my dad so then you go back to those patterns I feel like that's the pattern that I then craved with everyone I then just want my first coach to see something in me I'll do everything for you just believe in me like I want to feel that from you relationships the same thing it's like I'm always seeking that from what I wanted from my dad I suppose in my childhood difficult to have relationships when the first model of Love you've ever you witnessed was deeply um toxic yeah that the speech impediment so not knowing how to communicate or speak properly instead of what I'm gonna what I'm trying to say doesn't come out right so from the speech impedance it's just easier not to speak a lot in my circumstances that's how
speech impedant for me Works which go is crazy because like you said do that for a living now yeah yeah how does that work out because the thing is like on TV I suppose I don't think about the millions of people watching me or that for me it's just always I'm so interested in the person sitting opposite me because I'm learning you know the area of East London that I grew up in I didn't think I'd be surrounded by people that view the world or I've seen something in a certain way and I'm just sometimes I'm not speaking like hey you you ask a question and you wanted me to speak so the same thing I can ask you something and you're telling me this amazing story and I'm just sitting there even though I'm presenting I'm just amazed because I'm just like wow I'm learning something here so ultimately yes I do it for a living but now I'm just sitting there learning and only speaking sometimes really even though it's on TV but like I said in relationships yeah I know that pattern of not speaking or when something's tough I would run away from it like I have to just push it down push the emotions down the next day everything will be fine I'll carry on like nothing ever happened which for my partner has always been the super hardest thing because they want to talk about it and get it out and all the feelings but then I was always scared how those feelings or if you got to that angry state what would happen because I grew up seeing that in my dad so then I just want everything to be great like fine everything's fine tomorrow everything will be great that's the thing in relationships you've got to battle it out to resolve a problem and if you don't it ends up being deposited in the relationship as resentment or contempt and it just stays there as an issue and addressed yeah and then it will pop up some some other day yeah I think that's everything that happened to me up until I went to therapy is that it finally all needed to come out everything to deal with the emotions the childhood the speech impediment hiding it all I've come to learn I remember saying to my one of my friends last week I said I
think I think the single most important thing in any relationship um if it is to last especially romantic relationships is conflict resolution because you know I see you I've said this before but I see relationships as like imagine two dots and a piece of paper and then the relationship begins and they become these lines moving as the relationship you know carries its course and then there'll be things that start to make the lines deviate from each other and go a bit when but conflict resolution keeps the two people close you know if you know your partner you don't like the way he eats that thing yeah you can talk about it and that's a trivial thing but you can resolve things and keep yourselves close when things go unresolved it seems like these two parallel lines start to deviate and you move further apart and then you're not having sex but you you don't know how to talk about it so they just continues to deviate for so conflict resolution seems to be the thing that is um keeps contentment out of a relationship which Dr professor John gottman says is the number one killer of relationships but it also Keeps Us close if you're if you're not a master in conflict resolution it must be quite you know because you you want to avoid conflict entirely and that or you don't know how to communicate in a way that's going to help you to resolve the conflict it must be difficult I say difficult but then I would just always find a way of question and obviously is not right which I've now figured out about myself I would change things I would stop doing things okay to try and make my partner happy yeah so I'm then changing myself I've not been my true authentic self because yes I'm avoiding the conflict and everything but in doing so I've stopped doing what I want to do or what I like just to then always keep everything nice and happy and then you'll resent that's where the contempt shows up because you think [ __ ] I'm not doing this for you and I'm not doing this but then I wouldn't even speak about that yeah so I'll just sit there silence like why am I mad what's going on in my head like why am I feeling this what's going on yeah because I've changed and I'm doing everything just to try and
keep being happy and you've solved that I don't think if you'd ever solve anything you I'm learning you know it's interesting what did I hear the other day about you know we spend more time as people studying other people what you wear what you study how you act how you behave then actually spending time studying ourselves and so I would say over the last two and a half years or since going to therapy I'm studying myself more so those patterns those learning how to communicate better or what I do which will then help me in a relationship moving forward hopefully when you look back at your football career yeah big smile on your face um a really really amazing career um you're very much considered a legend in the game why do you think you were successful at football when you look back what was it about you and your character that separated you from those you know thousands hundreds of thousands of other people you were competing with to play for England or to play for Arsenal I think it goes back to the cage first of all for me football was just always and it was a escape and a happy place and I was scared to always lose that so I actually yeah even though like I went on what 140 caps for England and then there'd be people like yeah you're the first name on a team Sheet you're a favorite I played every game for England kind of with that fear that could be taken away this could be my last game like what if I don't get picked next week what am I going to do like it's all I've ever known in my life I know I wasn't the most talented like I wasn't there was people that were supposed to be at the top and make it they were the next best thing in women's football no one ever spoke about me like that in terms of growing up in the Arsenal team I was oh I was an owl that grew up in East London you know I loved Arsenal that's how everyone viewed me I just loved the club you know because for me it was a home
but no one ever spoke that I was going to make it but I suppose that's where I just wanted people to believe in me you know so I was like how I would do everything to prove to you you know I've got something just look at me I've got something I love this place so I think it was driven by that really and a feeling of not wanting to let people down even though they didn't believe in me how did that manifest in terms of your training and your your performance and your preparation and your direct guess at your obsession trying to be the best I can be every day in every training session every training session like I've been given an opportunity how dare I turn up to training and not leave giving it my all or coming to train and be like I don't fancy it today like I'm so lucky I haven't come from a council estate or a concrete football pitch and now I get to walk in at Highbury or be at the Arsenal men's training ground you know it's like who am I to be like now I don't fancy it today like I just I just loved what he was giving me in my life it's funny we often think of we ask motivated people we say how do you stay motivated and when you you look under the hood it tends to be a less of a choice than we think in the sense of it's not like I'm waking up and going I'm going to be motivated looking in the mirror and going come on we've got this it's more it's more sometimes as you've described like an escape from something else like yeah and we don't think of uh motivation as escapism all the time or insecurity but it so often is yeah I just knew what football was giving me in my life something that you know I had dreams but never dreamed that I'd be able to travel the world or you know I remember in the youth age groups getting on a minibus to go into Nottingham you know like where is this place didn't even know this place existed in the UK you know and here I am on a mini bus seat in a sandwich for a packed lunch you know I've been out the house all day it's like great I didn't want to let go of that
playing for England I got to go on an airplane I got to go to China what oh my gosh I didn't even know how many hours on a plane that was you know all those things were just feeding more I knew it was more than football but football was allowing me that platform to see things and learn things about the world that I know was making me even more hungry to keep it and to keep that I needed to keep doing well at football and you end up retiring what 33 34 you quit the international team at 33 quit Arsenal at 34. if football was giving you all of all that you've described there how did it feel to come to the end of your time with Arsenal and the England team I was learning more about the world and from other people and actually then I knew towards the end of my football career it was giving me those feelings that I didn't want the heaviness and actually a feeling this is not enough for me anymore not a feeling of being trapped trapped is the wrong word but there it was it was Heavy towards the end of my career I was taking on a lot of emotions responsibility I was Captain but in terms of I don't know I've always been this person whereas people can offload all their emotions on me so I do that I'll take that home I try and solve a lot of problems on and off the pitch and I just I wasn't happy anymore in my last couple of Seasons well I didn't know I remember doing a documentary about Mental Health and the doctor um Tyra Tanya Byron is her name she described it to me so well I didn't know I was like a functional depressive this whole time and that started in those later years of my footballing career but I didn't know I didn't know how to describe it or what I was feeling you know I was just turning up I wasn't happy it was Heavy taking on everyone's emotions management players trying to fix everything and then I'd be home in the evening and be like whoa I don't want to talk to anyone like I physically couldn't talk to anyone which of those patterns then I'd swish off from the world if you try and phone me call me won't
pick up mum yeah I'm okay don't want to have a conversation because everything was just then heavy no one in football knows that because I could go to football I'd put on a face like I'm Alex like yeah everything's great leader Captain great but then I knew I couldn't do it anymore I did a TV show Bear Grylls and that was the first time I knew I was ready to retire from football I was surrounded by different people different conversation about life other than being in a football bubble where everything you're consumed by and you think everything's just sport going on in the world where I know I've always needed more I know that's what's always been the spark in me about life and it was the first time I started having conversations about the world about other people's lives I'd sit under the stars it sounds like some Hollywood movie but every night the survival we had like a stint that we had to keep the fiery light on Bear Grylls and I remember just sitting there keeping the fire like looking up at the stars and we're like I'm ready for my next chapter like I know there's another chapter and it was just being brave enough to then take it and how did you know that that would be in Media what did you not know I didn't know no I was I was always frustrated from being away with England or even in Boston that I'd see a teammate full of Personality life and soul just this bubbliness about him get asked a question or being interviewed straight after a game and go in themselves and I'll be confused I'd be like what are you doing that's not you like I didn't understand so I remember just randomly asking one of the camera guys like oh let me interview after let me just ask some questions and then straight away doing that and then seeing a teammate relax and then everyone's saying to me Alex you know you're natural and I'm like what's a natural I'm just asking some questions like I don't get it um so you don't the same thing when people be like ah you sit in front of a camera and talk saying I don't think about the millions maybe that's why I'm not sat there in that Frozen state in fear looking at cameras because for me
the conversation is what feeds me I like seeing people relax and be fun um so I just started doing more of it and then I was like right scared about the next chapter after football I was like what am I going to do people trying to push me into management and I was like it's not me I don't have a passion to be a manager not at this stage I've not seen myself in that role and I was like no I need to do something that I love that I get a passion and the energy from and so that's why I did a media degree I was like right if I'm going to do this I know that I'm going to be judged you know and I don't like the feeling of anything just being given to you so like no I'm going to work for it just like I had to do my football career I'll work for it I'll do a media degree so I went and did that whilst I was still playing for Arsenal and yeah decided that in 2018 I was ready it I felt ready I had a two-year contract on the table from Arsenal to sign that's the comfort zone the comfort blanket that I I could have easily taken that I'm still trying to pay my mortgage I suppose most of my life is that the fear of not having money to pay my bills and the debt man knocking on the door like I grew up seeing him come around every Thursday you know that fear about that no I can't sign that contract I know how unhappy I'll be did you have an alternative at that point did you have a contract from no no nothing there so what what is that Gap that you know I think about like monkey swinging through a through a jungle you've got to let go of the last branch and just have faith that you're gonna grab the next one yeah what was that period like in your life where you don't sign the contract and then you're looking for your next thing because I suppose I've always had the fear or a lot of people what if it doesn't work out actually I suppose I've always been the opposite what if it does work out I don't want to be held back in fear of no just in case so it's more like I knew the headspace that I was in I couldn't sign that two-year contract it'd be unfair it'd be unfair to myself it'd be unfair to my teammates because I'd just be turning up to collect you know my monthly salary at
the end which isn't a lot nothing like men or whatever but it was enough to be and pay my mortgage monthly but I know I couldn't do it it was unfair when did your first broadcasting job emerge then after that it's weird because I was doing random stuff for BBC like appearing on a like women's football show or something and it's when I announced my retirement that's when it just went okay it's like I was free and then people like well she's free to do more she's got more hours in her day like she can actually start doing some work and then from BBC yeah they started offering me more I was appearing on some of their Flagship Flagship shows Football Focus or kind of those ones and then yeah I suppose 2018 for me was that year and because then I went off to the World Cup 2018 the first female pundit for the BBC and I suppose from there then it continued you talk about coming home um one day through that period and this is the the part where you start talking about this function functional or functioning depression and you talk about um looking at yourself in the mirror and then taking a walking past it taking a couple of steps back and looking at yourself in the mirror yeah um tell me about that day that evening what happened and you end up like collapsing and you know having a bit of a moment yeah yeah I remember that like as yesterday oh yeah I keep going back to the word heavy I think because that's straight away I I feel it I didn't know well I know I did that I was carrying a lot I'd carried a lot through my football career which I didn't really know I was just doing it all trying to solve everything straight away I took that into my broadcasting career and like all these great things that yes I'm the first this I'm the first that I never set out to be that I was just following something that I love that I had a passion for um and so all the stuff and I suppose the pressure that came with that I didn't know I wasn't putting it on myself but the expectation for me
the expectation I was putting on myself was not to let anyone down like I've been given a chance I can't let my BBC boss down like I've got this person that's finally believing in me he's given me an opportunity to go to a men's World Cup like this is big like so I was working so much doing so much not to let anyone down and then ultimately on top of that as you're becoming the first as I'm the first female all the negative stuff that come with that all the trolling all the online abuse all of that like you've just got to a stage where I just I couldn't take it anymore like I'd been numbing everything just carrying on I can't show I'm weak if I show I'm not strong if I show my weakness then the only thing I can't handle it oh no issues look a female can't handle it it's too much for her so all of this I've just been bottling and just carrying on putting on this face like everything's okay and then that night was when it all got too much I didn't want to come home I was drinking to switch off to sleep to numb it all to forget about it and I just got to a stage where I'd had a dad filled with drink an uncle passed away was an alcoholic it's like drink problem and alcohol has been huge in my life and here I was repeating those same patterns drinking every night to switch off from the world after work so you'd be presenting on TV and then you'd come home and yeah to switch off from it all switch off um just life switch off from not talking to someone don't want to speak because then I'd have to speak about emotions and the heaviness continues right if I don't speak about it it's great it's going to go away it actually doesn't just gets bigger and bigger and I think it was go back to how you said about Christmas in New Year it was that I was on my own because it was my choice wanted to escape everything the feelings and then just being so sad so sad and I was like I can't continue like
this so is that choice in that moment the next day to Google therapy what happened that night just couldn't stop crying could not stop crying drinking then the drinking wasn't switching off what was going on in my head just numb just I was literally on my bed curled up just uncontrollably crying and I don't know why I don't know why I was crying the way I was and why why should I be crying because from the outside I should I'm okay I've had amazing football career I'm now working on TV I can still pay my bills like why should I be sad from the outside world who am I to be sad I've got everything going for me right couldn't understand it you understand it now I understand yeah that for so all my life I'd locked up all these feelings that I didn't know like how you said they eventually find its way out but we've had all these I've had all this trauma everyone has trauma we have a big small everyone goes well drama and I suppose I'd put up all this protective walls around me and now they're just flooded out like I needed help how did the trolling online exacerbate make all of this stuff worse and like be honest with you know we all pretend that that doesn't affect us oh gosh yeah no that's so easy when people say I don't read it forget about it like but when constantly every day and yes my job to sit in front of a camera but the abuse of you know your skin color what you're saying just everything the pure hatred and I'm like what what have I done that was something like what have I done like should I just stop because ultimately I was talking about something that I love you know I was just someone that worked super hard didn't try and go and get a degree to get into this world to get another job you know to be able to pay my bills and look after myself and here I am getting nothing but pure hate and abuse every single day
and I'm not going to say something I can't do this anymore but why who why should I let them win you know so I'm fighting this battle constantly every day with myself did that make it harder to like really love showing up at work every day no do you know why because like the football cage the actual work being on screen was an escape it gave me like an hour and a half where I'm doing Super Sunday that was an escape I was actually you could forget about everything it's straight away when I'm going home once again that I'm on my own that's when it all spirals out of control like I can't take it functional depressive like at work I'm totally fine put on the walls like I'm doing the work enjoying it loving it and then straight away then I can't take it hence why most probably I threw myself into more work thinking myself time off work work because I'm loving doing it keep it coming Keep It Coming yeah it's a distraction from just sitting with oneself and and confronting yeah I see this so much in so many people I know this I just made myself so busy that I won't have to actually deal with stuff yeah it's almost like it's almost like um I sat here with Maisie Williams and she she'd been through a lot when she was younger and her with her father Maisie Williams from Game of Thrones the the actor and um she talked about how acting was her escape and the interesting thing is when when we in work and in I guess in acting we kind of get to disassociate from our our true self our identity like we become this character like even me now yeah this is obviously not you know I'm being as authentic as I can but I'm also trying to be a [ __ ] host of a podcast here right so like when I go upstairs and I'm on my own that's my truest self obviously when the camera's on or whatever um but it is it's like this is our work is our escapism it's we get to we're playing especially when you're presenting you are you know you ever yeah high pitched and you're like so um it's funny I've seen it a lot in some of my really close friends that work is their way of distracting themselves from
their life yeah just getting past today but you know what maybe for me I suppose maybe I didn't learn that part because actually what you see on screen is actually me I didn't learn how to either be this presenter or be a different form of myself so I've always given just it's just me but who's the person at home is the person that had dealt with all this trauma and done stuff but had like I hadn't that's what I'm saying it's like so on on TV there's this expectation for you to be a certain way right which is you've got to be at least you can't be sat there talking like this yeah yeah you've got to be a little bit up and you've got to be more a little bit more interested then maybe you might be feeling but but when you go home on that that night in particular that's probably actually you yeah because there's no camera there's no one watching that's when there's no distraction and I think that sometimes we are who we are when we're least distracted yeah when there's no phone there's no nothing go put us in a jungle and sit there for now you'll find out who you are yeah so like when you are when you were alone yeah and when you are alone and when there is no distraction who are you now are you in a relationship because this is quite no you're not in a relationship come dating okay you're dating okay you're dating I don't want to put a label on it okay here we go is the trauma you don't want to let you wanna commit yeah that's a toxic trait so you're dating you're not in a relationship but you're dating yeah okay so I'm just trying to figure out if you're going home Alone um yes I'd say yes I am okay yeah what do you like now when you when you're in that space alone and what's the journey been like of like being alone undistracted I love it no yeah have you always loved it I know what those moments have given me in my life but maybe because I was clouded by a lot of stuff going on I was scared to be in those moments where actually I think about the best moments that I feel now are my most Quiet Moments so I have this
special place in Portugal and I always escape to it because why I love nothing more than getting up in the morning and going on a hike in nature and I feel I come alive like the thoughts that enter my brain about life or what I want to do or where I want to go like it fills me with so much energy so I love those moments I love going away I go alone um away a lot on my own and people can't get their head around it you can is that on vacation on your own right yeah because I need it I know what it gives me so like I would say those moments I love I need it to recharge and refocus sometimes were you ever the person that didn't want the party to end or didn't want work to end yeah you were that person I had a suspicion you might have been I've always my labor trait those scales that I love this end I love connection I love people the energy that it gives me and then I also love the other side of it I need to be alone sometimes like not speak and I have the conversation just literally be in my own thoughts I say this because the friends that I've got closest to me that struggle the most with unadjusted issues were always the ones that never so say we're on a night out a couple of drinks one or two I'm like I'm done they would always want to continue and it was it was this interesting observation that you and people listening will know this friend they do not want people to go home they do not want the you know they want to have one more drink and then they have I think someone's referred to me before it's like the fear either upon so but sobering up or having to go home alone at the end of the night and I sat here with a with a guy that kind of explained that to me but I was just curious if that was ever you at all it's not that that I want to I love nothing more than seeing people have a good time that in those moments I often forget that I need to have a good time okay like I'm trying to make everyone have a good time do you need a drink I'm gonna go get you a drink let's go out for food let's do this I'm planning your biggest thing and I've never planned anything to celebrate my own stuff because that's what I love seeing in other people so it's not a fear of like I want you to keep staying out or keep giving a drink
it's just I'm loving seeing you have a great time and that makes me so happy the trolling stuff yeah I there's no there's nothing more toxic than trouble Twitter and it's just the set it's like a cesspool of like negativity and anonymity and everyone's display picture as some footballer from their favorite club and they just say whatever people will just say whatever I've I just don't post onto it anymore yeah I'm kind of the same oh what happens on my Twitter if you look at it it's just the podcast clip goes out and that's it yeah because you can't vacuum yeah I don't want to be baited into some [ __ ] but in your job it's almost part of the job to be on Twitter and to have a voice and to be common like you know I see it with the pundits like Gary and Jake Humphries and all they always it's part of the job to kind of mm-hmm I would say it's part of the job for them or but I would say to the extent that what I've gone through with it is maybe they haven't experienced that level and I think I remember Jake Humphrey saying as well lucky hasn't or he couldn't believe the stuff that was coming my way and you wouldn't until you're going through it or actually see it like and I suppose I hit it for so long but I tried to hide it for so long because I was scared of being seen as being weak not strong enough to deal with it all did you find anxiety yes of the fear of what might happen to me to that extent like because the abuse then would turn into death threats also to the fact is that I am going home alone you know what what happens there like we've seen in the past of you know some presenters what's happened stalking all of that stuff so all of that anxiety goes from my head like I want to just be safe like I'm just going to work the Jeff's talkers I wouldn't say stalkers no but in terms of the death threats and everything that's and then I suppose that's when I don't tell my mum don't tell anyone so actually then I'm dealing with all of this on my own yeah it's a lot
that day so the day after the you're crying on your bed you don't know why you're crying yeah it's uncontrollable and you you said the next morning you Googled therapy therapy yeah yeah I love because people when people have spoken to Fair people have had conversations about it in the past like straight away I would screw up my face and be like well no one can tell me about myself I know myself like what they're going to do they don't know about my life like that would be the attitude for me for therapy until that day where I Googled it one I didn't even know what to look for all this long list came up of all these different therapies I'm like what do I need I just need to talk to somebody and then yeah then ended up Googling someplace that was close to where I live went there and it was everything that I thought of her who would be like that feeling of someone sitting there and just saying yes or no to me and I was like no this is not going to work for me like I'm that person I need someone to be brutally honest with me like they're saying yes or no it's not gonna it's not what I need to hear were you scared when you um you went for that first therapy session like you've Googled a place close to you don't you don't haven't had a recommendation walking up to something knocking on something like are you ready yeah yeah yeah but it's so uncomfortable so uncomfortable and then went home the same thing it's like this not gonna work am I going to stay in this dark place get out some wine let's drink let's numb it all that experience didn't happen then they actually then something in my brain was like no and then something clicked that I'd heard about this place sporting chance actually I need to reach out to them see if these people can help me and then straight away within a day someone had come back to me saying we found this guy go and see him and the moment Stephen I walked into the room with him I knew he was the guy he was the person how did you know how he spoke to me it was no [ __ ] his character and you know I almost felt strange is
that I've had this relationship strange relationship with men my whole life but then I actually tend to gravitate back to that kind of form like and here it was this big man telling me and making me see myself in a way pushing me to see myself in a way that maybe I've been scared to do before and not allowing me to just be like yeah I don't no I don't want to talk about that no yeah that's okay and just see me and knowing that's not okay this was what two three years ago almost two and a half three years ago uh-huh you made me start seeing that some of it isn't my responsibility the guilt that I'm carrying my whole life the heaviness making me sit in all a different way making me see myself and learn about myself in a different way why I've done things the way that I have to understand the patterns to understand my patterns when I need help and that's okay to ask for help it's not weak it's not a weakness even we talk about like the heavy stuff but even it's the nice stuff wanting someone to say no I'm going to pay for this instead of me like I I always I'm the first to try and pay for everyone because I just want everyone to be happy you know like I've treated you to a meal like it's all good sometimes that awkward feeling don't like it well actually no just being like okay yeah thank you I appreciate that you're gonna buy me dinner tonight you know it's okay learning that why was that a struggle because you just kind of that's just why not just hate awkwardness or like now I found myself that I can pay my bills and have you know earned some more that I can take care of people also so I'm trying to take care of you where actually I'm not earning that money when we're talking about men's football or women's football even in TV now but I'm earning a salary so actually what am I doing I'm trying to pay for everyone like I'm not actually I'm not made of money but it's just that feeling that I can I can treat you like it's good I guess if you spend your life like trying to help everybody else and make
everyone else happy it's coming at the cost of something coming at the cost of your own happiness often and and that is difficult you'll watch you'll see two and a half two and a half years on now when you when you reflect back on you know that the person you were at 18 years old yep or in your early you know years ago you know playing for Arsenal and England if you could go back and just have a chat with her and she would believe every word you said what would you say to her that you're gonna be all right that you're gonna be okay but at the same time I almost wouldn't change any of it because I feel like I've been through or so much that has taught me so much and I'm so grateful for the lessons so ultimately I tell her that she's going to be okay but you're going to go through some stuff but it's going to make you even stronger but in a different way why would she need to hear those words about you're going to be all right because those aren't the words that most people would say to the younger self why would why would young 18 year old Alex need to hear those words I suppose it was always just a feeling of fear and worry so even though things might be going okay in your football career or you know you finally earned some money to pay for something there's always just you're living in a worry all the time so it's able instead of just rushing on to the next or thinking what next be more present in that moment you're going to be okay so just take it in I think there's a lot I've not taken in yeah how do you feel about your your career in terms of what you've achieved everyone looking at you must think hey Alex is an unbelievable success she's yeah smashed everything she must be just over the moon
I find it hard I suppose what a lot of people do right to hear the good stuff like yeah like I've done all right like from one career made it into this career but I suppose I'm scared to always just sit there because it can be taken away it can end so I'm always thinking I need to be better my next show I need to study my loans I can't mess up I need to be better so there's always that if I'm letting someone down so I don't think I've ever sat and taking it all in what what have I done they have great like I've managed to play for England and now what I sit on TV and have a conversation I suppose I I don't take it in when people now come up to me in the street I I understand more I would say I didn't understand before but now I'm starting to understand do you feel like you're a success depends how do you define success that's the great thing are you a success in your own eyes yes not because of my work or that stuff goes back to your question that you know what I'm I've done okay from the kid on that Council estate that only had the concrete football cage like you've managed to do something when a lot of people kids from those areas they have an expectation that you're not amount not supposed to amount to much so in my eyes I've been a success for those reasons foreign are you happy yeah yeah I'm still learning to be more happy to be honest I think I've always been kind of happy-go-lucky person like a feed of positivity want to hear the good things it's you know if you've got energy yourself around you like it drains me I'm that sort of person so I kind of navigate to the people that see life in a certain way and want to have certain conversations and I'm starting to yeah look at that and be more happy be how celebrate something not big Milestones maybe just little things you know it doesn't always have to be the
big things but taking those moments and yeah if if your happiness was this list of ingredients and you looked at it and thought well maybe there's one ingredient missing for me to for the recipe to be perfectly balanced what would that ingredient be I would say is finally accepting love I think I've always been scared like I said like I've been on a journey not been in relationships for a while for that reason I knew that I had to do some a lot of work on myself like I've had people come into my life that want to show me love that want to give it but I've always had those walls up no well I think finally now I'm at a stage where I'm ready to let that in and I think that's something that's been missing for my life and what do you want from that from the next chapter of your life what is the you know because you look forward and 10 years from now we say oh God that was a successful chapter what happened to be I would say be more present in the moment really is like it's weird because I don't ever look like five years or ten years people's in terms of like my next job or anything people like well what show do you want to be presenting in five years I think I've always been I'm quite spiritual but I've never like I might have these small goals but I'm also open to that actually I might go right a bit and it might I might learn some lessons here to push me in that or open to that you might have an idea of that's my presenting goal I need to be on that show but actually because I'm on this path it might take me a totally different way and I'm I'm okay with that same like the football decision you know do I sign a two-year contract in my Arsenal career I've actually do I listen to how I'm feeling and it's taking me on a totally different path I wonder if there's a bit of a like the survival mindset in there where like it's just okay I hear this a lot like I'm just trying to make sure I don't lose this [ __ ] to do my best today so thinking about the future seems like a waste of energy because I want to make sure that you know
because I'm because there's sometimes a fear in US of of going back and I think I think people that have come from harder times understand this a little bit more I think maybe if I if you'd come from a privileged place you wouldn't have you wouldn't have ever had a fear of like what happens if I lose this contract because you can just you know fall back on the safety net of your like parents mansion but there's more of a like a fight in the moment I see which ends up I think as you've described it like deferring our happiness because we're just trying to get through today we're not enjoying it we're just trying to [ __ ] hold on here you know oh I'm scared of that yeah like a fear of like losing that contract but I also have a fear of standing still hmm like just being okay like being not just average like I always want to be better than I was yesterday but you must have dreams big no yeah like dreams of for me like owning a house in the area that I am now because I know I love that area yeah so isn't dreams of like when I went into the TV career like there's a select group of people that I'm like oh if I like get into that category like I know I've done all right because that's how I view them like Top Class same like in if we're talking football terms when you're playing for England you're the best right back you know like I want to be in a category where I see those presenters that you know they are top class right so I suppose I keep working towards trying to be seen at that level which I think for me is hard because I don't know honestly if I'd be viewed like that why because I already have a perception around me that I've just been given a role right that I'm tick in a box so I think that perception now for a lot of people like that's always going to stay with me no matter how hard I work or have work to get to where I am that's kind of a perception makes you upset doesn't it because I I've worked so hard people can't they see just sometimes the end process of it or they don't see that or the whole process what's actually
taking you to get to that which like I'm fine with but the fact that like yeah you're not respected for the work that you're doing or been done that's hard for me when you say people think you're there because you're taking a box what box do they think you're ticking female black quota you why do you carry that yeah goes back to another thing that's heavy it's been heavy it continues to be every time a subject's brought up because maybe I've been that first to them breakthrough it's like I am that spokesperson or you know we'll go to Alex she needs to speak about this so it's just it's just always there always and it's like as if it's become my it's me it's my story and I'm like no there's a whole lot to me you know going on in my life I'm not just being trolled but that's how now people would either just see me or all the abuse or yeah this I didn't see it like that thanks didn't even write down trolling on here I didn't was was completely irrelevant to obviously who you are so it's interesting that you were carrying that that in your mind but it didn't cross my mind I didn't even think we're going to talk about it today I don't consider it to be part of your story thank you not even saying that to make you happy like if I I just didn't think it was it's not it's not anything to do with you is it it's actually someone else's problem in every sense of the word I suppose it's when you're getting phone calls every day about that or straight away that that's constantly every thing that you read online yeah it's that yeah there's this interesting thing when you when you represent an unrepresented community that it ends it ends up becoming like your personal brand so like as you've said oh we need to talk about black issues or women issues in football so microphone Overture and it and and it's that's on one hand the right thing to do
because other people shouldn't really be speaking on those issues but in another way it's um it's kind of the wrong thing to do because it pigeonholes you as a it reduces your identity as you've said down to just like black woman when you are so much more everyone else is allowed to be so much more yeah but um people don't really think about that they think they're being kind yeah or thoughtful or considerate how do you know what I suppose like in terms of there's parts that I find it hard because like I said before I also understand my responsibility more with it where before it was just I was just finding a job I'm just sitting on a sofa having a conversation like oh this is great actually what I didn't understand me sitting on a BBC One show so far a flagship program for BBC is actually doing for a lot of people I didn't understand that until maybe there was one time that I'm riding back through East London it's actually during the pandemic I'd rode from like North London to East London to see my mum and riding home there was two black women on a park bench and they were shouting at me Stephen and I was like well what's going on here what's going on in there like like family yeah basically pure joy that they'd seen me yeah and they just told me keep going nothing more and I was like wow it touched me yeah because of all the stuff you see online those two people on that part bench I understood what I'm doing what's your relationship like these days with your father no it speaks for him when's the last time you spoke to him 2019 and it wasn't a conversation it was a text message the last time I'd actually spoken to him was my Nan's funeral in 2017. I remember standing on the balcony and whopping it had some drink but him telling me that he knows he's not been the person that he should have been and he's carried a lot of regrets and he's going to change and I was already so distraught because my nan was one of the closest people in my life but I remember just feeling like I I don't care if you do then great I'd spent my whole life sending him
Christmas presents birthday presents ringing him just to check in because I had this guilt that he would be lonely or and then from that moment I was like now I'm done like I didn't hear from him so I'm not going to chase him like once again it was just this that it's just all talk like I'm over it and then I was doing strictly in 2019 and I got to Blackpool strictly was like this bubble of happiness that at a stage I'm like I just needed it and it gave me that strictly did and then I remember I got to Blackpool and I was on the train on the way up sitting next to Michelle Visage who's this character who I'd never thought I'd have someone in my life like her and who I am opposite end she's from New York but we just had this connection she was my person on Strictly and she saw my phone Flash and she's like what the heck what's that she must have seen something in my face and it was a message from my dad asking for tickets to come to Blackpool I hadn't heard from him the 10 weeks I was on the show um and I asked for tickets not for him though for two of his friends where he lives you know what our team the Elton John film and I remember crying in the movie theater because there was a part in that that I was like geez that's how I feel there was a part um Elton John he was just trying to connect with his dad the whole time and then there was one point where the dad reached out to him and was like come around for dinner or something and when he turned up it was literally just for him to sign all graphs so there was no love or he didn't really want him to be it was just a sign autograph for the kids he had around the house and that's how I felt in that moment like it wasn't you didn't care about me I'll ask how I was or you wanted strictly tickets for your mates but I remember I had the courage to finally write back to him that's wrong and I think it must have touched him in a way because I'd never done that like if I was mad or felt angry about
anything would never tell my dad because I always still had that fear um and so he must have known and then straight away you text back apologizing that oh no it's just a he's way to try and connect with me to ask for tickets and they were really for him and I was just oh this is just [ __ ] and as I'm not spoken to him since but I'm gonna have to uh and I want to speak to him you're not finished talking yeah it's on one hand like I've done this book to free my mom on the other hand I'm scared that it could ruin my Dad's life and I don't want that so I need to plug up some courage because yeah I need to tell him that I've wrote about stuff that's not going to be comfortable for him we sit here on the 9th of September yeah but comes out in 10 days from now on the 19th of September are you are you thinking of speaking to him before the publication or after the publication no before I think it'd be very wrong if it's just out there and I hadn't spoken to him like I've not wrote the book I I didn't write it to destroy his life or make him seem like this person and I truly hope he's not that person anymore like people change so I don't want him to be judged on that in the past like I want people to tell you for who he is now so I want him to understand that I've not wrote it from a place of being angry with him or that ultimate it's not about him it's about wanting my mum to break free of it all so what are you thinking I was just thinking a few things I was thinking it's a it's a difficult conversation and I've got to be honest I there's a part of me that thinks you don't own that this this is my look it's not none of my business but there's a part of me that thinks you just you don't own that as you said it's not it's your story and it'll impact people you love of course and then um I think you have the right to speak on your own experiences regardless of
how that might make someone else uh uh who's played that kind of role in your life feel I just don't know I just you know that's easy for me to say it's not my dad yeah you know I you know so but that's that was what I was thinking I think yeah that's called back and forth in my mind like I don't need to right he's not been there in my life I would say you sit in there having this conversation with me you know me better than my dad like he doesn't know anything about me can't describe me as a person doesn't really know what's going on in my life doesn't know so yeah I don't own that but it's I don't know something in me is telling me it's the right thing to do for him is my dad I love him did you ever understand the cycle that he's in that made him the way he is no I think that's where I always think that's something like he must feel the guilt and the sadness you know and that's why I've always there's a good person in there like something's gone on that's made him feel like this or I don't know if it's me just making up a story in my head but I feel like I always saw that from a kid like everyone has good in them you know I'm still trying to pluck up the courage it's coming around soon I've got to do it so yeah I will do it you finished this book by um writing a letter to your mother yeah yeah that was hard in the audiobook I'm not gonna lie yeah spell that whole chat to crying why am why did you want to end the book in that way the book shows her that I am me because of her that she's an incredible woman and everything that she's done has allowed me to be in the position that I am and for her to understand that she doesn't have to be the strong one anymore I I I'll do everything to look after her and just to enjoy her life she still has this life you don't need to be trapped
by the past anymore she's still trapped by it that yes like me taking him out for dinner or a theater show like to try and give her that happiness like I can only do so much I'm hoping that letter sets her free that's why oh no it's beautiful what you write about her and it was actually it's actually difficult to read it because it's so beautiful and it's so it comes from such an authentic place so I can't imagine what it's like having to say it in a booth into a microphone when you're doing the audiobook I can't imagine even reading the words were just so you could feel that the words were so intentional every word you selected in that letter is so um so intentional so it's um it's moving for someone that you know has never met your mother but um thank you what an amazing daughter she has raised thank you so it does actually it does actually make me smile going back to one of your questions about I don't know being proud or like even seeing you just have that book like that's my book yeah like I wrote my own book like I didn't even go to school like education it was a struggle yeah dyslexic the speech was like they're all there all the problems in my life but I actually just sat down on my laptop laptop and wrote that book and like you just like you've got it there like I don't know it still doesn't feel real but I'm just like yeah I did that you did that I did that Alex we do have a closing tradition on this podcast yep which is where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest and they don't know who they're writing it for oh you will also be asked to do the same which is leave a question for the next guest and again you won't know who that guest is but and I don't get to read it until until the very end of the podcast so oh okay it's very very easy to read what is your deepest fear good one at the very core of you what is your deepest fear my deepest fear is my Mom leaving this world and not experiencing happiness
that is the fair though I actually need more from me no I was just thinking about it it makes sense because you've explained you've explained it you've explained it that you've seen this kind of numbness in your mum to the world and you're it feels like you've been fighting to try and solve that yeah and as you've said this book is part of the solution in your eyes to liberate her from that she wanted to be happy and it's a smile more take a moments and just not think something's gonna happen just for her to have some happiness do you think she has to go and walk some of the same steps that you've walked in terms of therapy and going back to do that yeah yeah I don't know how hard that's gonna be for her because you're going to bring up rawness the stuff that she's tried to push to the side But ultimately I know it can free her but she has to have a willingness hopefully I think that's there's a power in there isn't there I think this is what I I hope when I get sent about I hope the book sets are free because I know there's so many people that have gone through the same stuff as my mum and I think maybe if she understands that and sees that that they're free or they've come through things that maybe she can start to be on that Journey so there's there's a huge fear the answer to the question But ultimately I look forward and when I look forward I see there's a light and I feel that's where I smile because I'm just hoping and I pray that that's where she's getting that's where she gets to Alex thank you thank you for having me thank you it's been an absolute pleasure um you're a wonderful person and I know this is just the start of our relationship so yeah thank you thank you Stephen oh someone get me a tissue [Applause] [Music]
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