Video URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEDzn83BxFo
when you get that call had you known the context the behind the scenes that unhealthy culture honestly do you think you would have made a different decision I think I think I can say this Chelsea Legends I read the dad was the biggest influence on your career and then I read a separate quote saying sometimes I hated him you know my dad was a tough man pushed me very hard on the football front and it got probably a bit too much the fear of failure was a huge driving force that made me what I was and gave me the career I got in the end Chelsea fans will be listening to this because they want to get your opinion on what's just happened because since you've left we've not really heard from you I came back here because this was an opportunity to come to Chelsea travel close to my heart but I could see and training the level wasn't enough the size of the squad with players that will test you and question you questioning you and then Chelsea spends more money than anyone's ever spent in a window it seemed like Tails could see that the players were ready for the season to finish but low standards are a symptom of something further Upstream that's happened you know we didn't get the results I wanted and I know a lot of the reasons why like what so one moment occurred in your life that really tested you at a much deeper level the passing of your mother and while you were playing at the very very highest level I was a mummy's boy I lost the closest person to me you know everything to me the emotional support I want to say something more you know and I couldn't what would you want to say Frank is a legend there's absolutely no denying that but so much has happened in recent times in his life as a manager that unanswered questions remain and I wanted to have a conversation with Frank an honest open conversation to see if we could get to the bottom of some of those unanswered questions what was happening behind the scenes how did it actually feel for Frank is anyone to blame what does Frank want to do next in how and what caused Frank to be the man that he is and that's maybe the most fascinating question of all
because there's some things that Frank has just never talked about before but he's made the decision to talk about them today and if you have unanswered questions I don't think you will at the end of this episode [Music] Frank [Music] how are you doing really well thank you there's always a there's always a short and long answer to that isn't it I was waiting for your second drink what's the what's the long version of of that no I'm doing really well I'm um I'm currently uh on a break I suppose from working which is a pleasure in ways because I am obviously the the work of a the manager uh I was gonna say Premier League manager but any manager in football is intense um so at the moment I'm on a break sort of holiday time for me a little bit family time um and probably when I'm out of work I learned this when I left Chelsea actually um it was I had a year out after that and I really learned to try to improve my appreciation of when you're out of work you're fortunate enough to be able to be out of work whatever that circumstance is but try and enjoy your family and be very very present so the minute I'm pretty present at home which is a good thing hopefully for my children and wife and uh I'm in a pretty good place I remember my my brain would often drift off when I had my time out of work um and I would think about things professionally so I'd think about things that I could be doing or you'd think back to the past when you're when you're having those moments where you'll meet I know your kids are running around and you you have a moment where your brain drifts off to work what is what are the subjects that your brain starts thinking about professionally you you think a lot in management uh about people so if I if I reflect on situations like leaving Chelsea or leaving Everton and those things there is there are a lot of things that are out of your control you get to a point where you kind of can
get probably 70 of them and lock them away and kind of go and I'm right with that you know results you can't control but 70 you kind of you're okay with and there's 30 that you kind of niggles at you that's how I am and a lot of those things when you become manager and maybe sort of like people things I think there's sort of tactics and all these things are huge in a modern game and I I'm certainly a coach I'm not a manager but when it comes to managing I don't know 25 30 players managing and building because you are the figured head of a building when you're the head coach or manager I think sometimes when you're reflecting you can reflect on things did I have that was that interaction right would I have dealt with that right could I dealt with it differently and hindsight is like the best best thing you know it's so simple to sit there be hindsight and think you know I should have done that so I suppose I had moments where I go over things like that but they're all with a with a yearning to sort of be a bit better or learn that you might have done something wrong or actually you come to conclusion oh maybe did it right so you know I dip in and out of that stuff um and that probably is you know as I say I wouldn't say I'm the only one but I certainly am someone that is you know I can never control when those moments come I can be now pushing the swing you know with my kid and then my mind goes back to something called things ahead to something and you know that probably means that I'm absolutely invested in what I do yeah I can relate to all of that I think any anybody can um and I also really like your analogy of once you get to like 50 70 piece with something it's kind of resolved as much as you know yeah and then there's other things which feel kind of unresolved I guess or there's more wisdom to Garner from those experiences well I think if you don't get to peace with a 70 I think you can get yourself in a bit of a mess you know I think you can go over everything and correct yourself and then what is the answer going forward so I think kind of understanding what you are and then going no no that was fine whatever the result for a win or for a loss I've had games as a coach and as a player where I I we've won a game and I know I got
something wrong in the game but you take the plot it's afterwards but inside I know I got it wrong I've had games that we've lost and you get criticism from the outside and I know my prep was right you know in my head so I think those sort of things you can kind of Stack Up and Go no that's fine but then there's always the 30 and we'll always strive for and it might be less I don't know if 30 sounds a big number when I say it sometimes it's 10 to try and make you as good as you can be so I kind of go over that stuff because when you're out of work when you're not working and you don't know in foot we don't know what your next gig is you know it's very hard to jump too far into the future because everything looks different there so how can you stack yourself up as good as you can now I want to get into all of that but I I want to take a step back because I think um I feel like there's more I need to understand about who you are as a person and your characters and your character and really the the like the foundations you're built upon to understand all of these things the things we're going to talk about so what do I what do I need to know about Frank Lampard in terms of the influences and the experiences that shaped your character the character of the man that sat in front of me because you know I've spoken to a lot of people about you in preparation of this conversation no no but they all they all seem to sing from the exact same him shoot they all say everyone says you're just a a wonderful man like a really good solid gentleman and it's people don't know this but we weren't going to have this conversation before yeah but you've just been a total Class Act in even not being able to come last time because of you know reasons outside of your control um the way you conduct yourself you just conduct yourself as a real gentleman um and then in terms of your mentality when I was reading through your early years it's clear that there was this real Obsession to be better I mean Harry said Harry redknapp said that you were the hardest training hardest working person he's ever worked with when you're a young man tell me what do I why is Frank Lampard the way he is I I grew up in in Romford
in Essex so um I will call it probably a middle class upbringing in terms of my dad had been a professional footballer um and so I went through a pretty um comfortable upbringing where I was down to school every day aspiring to do pretty well at school um training pretty much every day and plan at the weekend so after school we'll go and try and Tottenham and Arsenal and West Ham at one point I was trying little three you could in those days now it's different uh I was playing Cricket I was playing for Essex as a child so that was on Monday night having Nets at Chelmsford and then on Saturday I went to school he's going to school on Saturday so she was devastated with at the time as we all were but that was how the school works and on Sundays I played so my more week was so busy but it was content very content in terms of relationship of my family I had a a dad who was pushed me very hard on the football front very very hard it was quite a hard task master what does that mean in reality um that means that probably when I was probably started kicking the ball when I was at four or maybe it seems like a walk but you know like remembering my early days would be four or five and then so that was me in terms of I loved the football um but probably by the time I was eight or nine I was probably getting like coached or pushed in in what 15 or 16 year old might be when they're sort of going into an academy at West hamster where I ended up as in work on your weaknesses go over the park you need to have more stamina you if it's not good enough your agility is not good enough so I was like used to put down the the the cushions in the front room and had me doing reaction for our ball against the one react and jump I'm a kid I I loved it don't get me wrong but there were times when I didn't love it and it got probably a bit too much I'm not gonna cry about it because it made me what I was and gave me the career I got in the end and then on the other flip of that so I had that pushy kind of thing and so after a game on a Sunday we would lose and I would get he would give me some criticism on the way home and I would be a bit emotional and fortunately for me
when I think about sort of fight and how things work together to maybe get used to where you got you you end up being my mother was the the flip the emotional support the you know arm around you the quiet word I was a mummy's boy and that was completely my upbringing so as I say it was pretty comfortable and in the end it led to me leaving school with my gcses getting decent grades and then going to sign on as a yts at the time an apprentice at West Ham I read that the quote about your father I think it was in the independent that your dad was the biggest influence on your career and then I read a separate quote saying that I have an awful lot to thank him for but sometimes I hated him yeah I I stick by that quiet I think you'll probably find it um a lot in stories similar to mine um and in the modern day I think it's changed because I think parents now might the thing with my story then in a different era was it it felt pretty organic my dad had played um he saw probably a bit of talent in me and pushed and drove in an old school way I want you to be a player son you know and he was like he think I think he found a new sense of pride in pushing me there now I think some parents get excited about all the bright lights that may be and they push their children and I think that's another story but I think mine was real you know my dad was a tough man is a tough man and he pushed me and um I remember being over a park and it was raining it was crossing balls for me to head hedden's never been a strength of mine throughout my career and I couldn't you know I couldn't connect I was missing them and he was shouting at me and I remember sort of stomping off and and being emotional about it and um those things stick in my head and again they were the building blocks of of myself as a person so you know I this isn't a sob story it's just a reality of what I went through and as I started a lot of other comfort so I you know other people don't have it as good and it was without that who knows in a football sense if I'd have got to where I got and how does that um what relationship does that make you have with your work and progress and self-improvement at that very young age because you sign up West Ham when you're
14 years oldish uh 15 maybe 15 yeah 15. and and I and I I mean as I said I read that Harry redknapp quote that you outworked everybody else yeah um what what is your relationship with your work yeah from that very young age well I I I'm sort of um really interested in this kind of nature versus nurture thing um what was in me already was ingrained in me maybe to be this kind of very work ethicy kind of person I think I had you know physical capacity I was a chubby kid to be fair I was quite chubby at these cheeks curtains as you had in those days and I remember like I know I needed to get fitter and um and get stronger so um and then being pushed by my dad particularly and encouraged by my mum probably gave me this real desire um to an understanding that if you don't work you're not going to get there and that you know that's what I would try and pass on to my children now but it really stuck and it became me so by the time of being you know 16 as I remember it probably been at West End my early years I'd probably been forced into a bit by my dad but I took it on board so you know I wanted to get faster so he put me in running spikes and I had to run after training go and run over the back and I used to hide my spikes go out the backs I didn't want the other players to see me because I felt embarrassed um I'd go in on days off um I would practice extra shooting I would do everything I could to to improve and it probably was looking back um a desire to be the best and I was never the best I was probably like the second or third best kid in pretty much every team that I played in in whatever I did Cricket or football um but I had a real desire to and I also had a fear of failure and as much as that doesn't sound like a nice driving force it can be a really strong driving force I think where did that fear of failure come from I don't know I don't know I think it's in my makeup maybe I don't know it's probably just how I am I probably have it still these days I think it can be really positive it was in my footballing career and it carried on throughout probably still in my management career um it can probably be the flip of that
in my life because if I fear of failing something I won't approach it and I that's me I don't want that you know my wife will always Christine jokes with me when we go on holiday and you want to paddle board or something I'm not going near that because I know I'm going to fall off a lot you know so she'll laugh at me so I'm like you paddleboard I'll lay on the beach or I'll lay on the Lilo or something like that I actually use the paddle board as a lie like that's like that's the joke but in the biggest sense in my life you know that fear of failure is and as it can probably maybe make me uh not try things I should do but in terms of my footballing career the fear of failure was a huge driving force and I don't think it's a bad thing because I think there's a certain humility to it and my mum would certainly have been a driver of me as a young person just like stay humble son stay humble never get too higher stay there and you'll be fine in your own head so I think I had a real understanding of my weaknesses and I thought well if I can work on these constantly and then I started to see results really step by step sometimes you go back you go forward a few but I I can certainly say looking back at my career from start to finish I didn't leave anything on the table in terms of work ethic and training you know I don't want to sound like an absolute machine there'll be days when you get older where you come off it a bit or you you start to find life affection different ways but I I when I look at my peers in football um I certainly had a training ethic that at least stood right at the top whether you know others can stay the same maybe but I felt that I mean that's the Harry redknapp quote he says that um during his career um he never met anyone that trained as hard as Frank he would be out there on a Winter's day practice and shooting for hours Left Foot Right Foot etc etc that fear of failure though I can see how it becomes a driving force and makes you stay out there on a Winter's day Left Foot Right Foot at him leaving no stone unturned but with all these things there comes there comes a more a cost on the other side of the coin right and you I mean you talked about the paddle board thing which is that like
kind of if I don't do it then I won't fail but one of the things that I was assuming is it would also make you quite a chronic overthinker yeah because I think people that have that fear of failure they try and think their way through a situation before it happens yeah typically what is the cost of being that having that fear of failure um well the other thinking thing is maybe a cost and I think that can be a positive too but I think it can be quite taxing on yourself you know for anyone with things like that and you know sometimes I would I've tried to make myself you know not an overthinker however you do that I don't know because I've not found a solution to that one because um I think that's when you are that um it's in you so um probably the the the the negative or downsides have been probably a bit taxi than myself but I think you learned to live with that too and I think you understand it I think it's um something that I'll never master and um it can probably cause you in to over complicate in situations like you're saying about I don't want to get into that but if you do get into something and you're really overthinking you have to get into something I now try and step back and simplify and say stop overthinking it simplify it because for me anything in life if you can simplify the basics you probably get quicker to the solution so um that one's just a struggle that I put up with but as I say I think it's just part of my makeup if I wasn't an overthinker if I didn't have that sort of obsessive sort of perfectionist training Drive I wouldn't have got to where I got to because I was not Lionel Messi who has this god-given Talent that's there like wherever my talent was on the Spectrum I needed to push it and I constantly try to how did you enjoy the process if you're overthinking I weirdly like I've really grown to like the stress of what it brings and that's and that that's you might start thinking I'm a strange person I don't know but I loved stressful training you know to put on a physical site for instance I loved like that feeling of like almost feeling sick on a pre-season run or you know really intense training sessions I I really
enjoyed that maybe not always in the moment but you know when you get to the end of it you go if I got through that and it was so intense and hard and maybe in life sometimes I set myself challenges and maybe I'll make it more complicated than I should but I don't mind that stuff and that's probably when I was started off talking about that relax when you're with your children I think I'm still um juggling that one and I think probably a lot of people are I don't know I think you know being overthink is not something unique to me it's completely everywhere um but I don't I don't know what else to say and that's what I am that that enjoying the the pain like the preseason run if you feel sick then you feel good about yourself yeah why I don't know I mean I went to the gym this morning and I really didn't want to go and I bought the dog and my time limit's getting shorter and I'm gonna go and I want to go I'm going to go in because I know the buzz that'll get off afterwards and that's kind of my drug and always has been and you know it probably starts from all those early days of you know you must work hard you must push yourself you must be as fit as you can be and it probably just stuck and it's probably a bit of a lifer for me um but I do I do thankfully I I I I enjoy the stress of hard work and physical but less now I'll finish you know now it's more to not get too unhealthy and unfit whereas when I was training and playing even when I finished playing for a couple of years if I went for a 5k I need to beat my 5K PB I have to try and beat it now when I do a 5k I'm just going to complete it you know and I'm completing it in like 20 or 30 seconds less so I've I've dropped that one slightly and maybe I transfer it into other parts of my life I guess quick one before we get back to this episode just give me 30 seconds of your time two things I wanted to say the first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week means the world to all of us and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place but secondly it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started and if you enjoy
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got some problems and it's going to be a difficult job or whatever that's all jobs are and I jumped why um that inner probably drive that I have in a desire you know it wasn't something that I I am an overthinker so that probably made that process that those couple of days where I had to make a decision really intense but at the same time I I like a challenge I love a challenge and as much as I enjoy punditry it was you know it's it's challenging you want to do it well you want to do it like you know the top boys do it you have to put everything into it and do it really well um but I I was when I wanted more I wanted to to get on the grass I wanted to work with pliers I wanted to try and improve pliers I wanted to see if I could do it it's probably more if I'm honest probably can I do it and can I you know do something and I was probably naive at the time because the minute I walked into Derby I was like wow this is different you know I've got to hold them I am now holding the meeting rather than one of the 25 players sitting listening and as much as you can think I'll do that the minute you're walking and you see those 25 faces and then you walk to to say hello to Jeanette who's your secretary and this one and the Playa liaison I'm like oh have I got to manage all this as well and you do you have to sort of you know the building is yours to kind of set the tone so that first year some of it was good you know I think sometimes in management a great manager said to me this he said and he was all he's old he was old and he said to me I think I was a better manager when I was young in many many ways he said because when I as I got older I started to really sort of overthink things and become a little bit more cynical and you know you kind of go over these things when I was young I just make decisions and I was kind of free to do it now I think there's a balance to that experience is obviously a clear can clearly help as you go along you learn from mistakes but I unders I understood his point when he said that because I walked into Derby fresh and I made a lot of mistakes because you
always will but I also had a freshness and a bounce and a feeling inside I've made it was kind of I want to take this on and even though those moments of fear you know that kind of when you feel like a bit of imposter syndrome should I be doing this and you've got hired it like I remember having a whistle for the first day and trying to in the training pitch again I'm going to blow this at the end of training and I've been used to hearing about this sounds so stupid I've been used to hearing coaches go end of the session stop I was a bit like what kind of whistling I didn't want to do like a little I don't remember guys so let alone like I've got a bigger team and set the tactics and set the tone I was about all those little stings and I think every if they were honest I think you know people in business yourself have all had those the most simple things where you're sitting there going wow that little basic thing that I didn't consider is now in my head yeah so I had a lot of those and it was you know we got to the playoff final we got to Wembley we lost a final against Aston Villa to get to the Premier League and I was so disappointed for the club at Derby and the owner had given me you know put everything into me and we had a really good year and got there and and we lost it but in terms of um that first year of management yeah my drive took me into it and it was just a huge learning curve and it was a really enjoyable year imposter syndrome that I mean that's somewhat linked to I guess your fear of failure have you how does we talk a lot about imposter syndrome on this podcast because it's it's a it's a two it's a double-sided thing on one hand you have that feeling of um which I can recall when I became a dragon on Dragon's Den and I'm sat next to Peter Jones and Deborah meaden Peter Jones has been there for 21 Seasons since the beginning Deborah Mead has been there for 17 and I feel like I've just walked into the TV yeah like your little whistle thing was me like how do I say I'm out okay exactly yeah um but being at peace with that like how do you how have you dealt with that in your career because you went from being a pundit to managing a club that was trying to get promotion to then Chelsea these are huge leaps
forward yeah huge leaps forward um I think uh I probably managed to get coping mechanisms along the way that have uh put that to the side and in simple sense I've become much more confident in myself um away from work away from work actually at home much more content in myself again it probably comes back to being really settled in relationship I am 45 now just turned um but in the workplace as well I've um that first year I remember feeling it a lot and when I moved to Chelsea like it should be a huge move it's a huge jump to the Champions League club even though I knew the club very well it was a huge jump to deal with players of a different stature Etc um but I have found that imposter syndrome thing much less and I had just had coping mechanisms where I could kind of just go okay you're nervous taking this meeting because you're a bit out of your comfort zone you've got to be critical of a player so you're going to go in on someone you're going to show a video of the game the other day and it's like that's that's not a comfortable thing to do always and I just probably have found mechanisms to be able to go right you almost go into the character and that doesn't sound like an actor too much but you're going I'm just going to go into it and the more I think you do that um the better you can be at coping with that thing and then you just kind of also have to get a realization that you know you can feel a bit like that you can feel a little bit like I'm out of my comfort zone that you can make mistakes I think showing that you can make a mistake in front of a group of players is not the worst thing you know they're there to the players will get it you make the smallest mistake one of those 25 at least is going to go well that when he said that you know but I think you've got to come to peace with that and you can even joke about it after the event because you'll keep making them so I'll probably come come to terms we've been able to deal with that side of it I think I am I I was thinking then as you're speaking actually about my experience being a dragon and when um one of the things I've always wondered
about players when they go from being a player to a manager and especially when they've been managed under a legend of a manager so like I was thinking about Ollie um oligon Associates Alex Ferguson yeah how hard is it to like be yourself versus be the successful manager that you saw when like because even when I became a dragon I think for the first two years for sure I was trying to be a dragon yeah not being Steve yeah yeah and that's a that's a journey but do you understand the question I completely get it I get asked it a lot and I'm not in not in exactly the way you guys but I get asked by football journalists who say so what did you take out of all your managers you play and all this stuff and you know just to jump to one would be Jose Mourinho it's a good one to jump to because he had a huge effect on my career as many did but he came and probably elevated me in my playing career to a different level and what I learned from Jose and as I then went on to managers after that was the the thing that impressed me about Joseph there was a real authentic nature to him like when he was self-confident overconfident kind of brash Jose that's him you know that was him and you know maybe he's playing up a bit now and again but I saw him behind the scenes and then when I've worked with other managers that maybe were probably striving to be something like that and I think after Joe said it was a there were a generation of managers that were a bit like okay I'm gonna wear this I'm going to wear the scarf and I'm going to type them with you know or act a bit kind of you know say those things he used to say and does say um and I didn't I didn't buy it as such and even from outside when you're watching manager you know you have that impression so I think probably you go okay can I take things from all these managers for my journalist question yeah I did from Sam and not from others blah blah but when you come to it you have to be yourself because you'll get found out and you're probably right in my early days I also did that I did my first meeting at Derby again was like right I'm an ex player so anyone who wants to knock on my door come and see me and I'll you know I'll tell you the truth and we'll have it out or I'll you know
I'll give you the answer that you want and I remember like the first three weeks they kept knocking on the dock I was like and I was like to do another meeting so Lads if you're gonna knock on my door come to me with like facts of why you should play you know how's your training you know come with something I don't want you just I didn't play on Saturday like Monday morning there's like five on the door knocking and you know open policy in a door is good but at the same time it was like those are like learning curves for me like I probably said that that phrase because I needed to say it right yeah you know what I mean because there's a place it's really so really cool things to play I want the manager to be able to speak to me all the time and when I said it I was like Sam what I thought I should say and then you know you learn a little lesson you know my daughter hopefully is still open now but at the same time I was probably playing the part of a manager um and then you kind of go now what's real to me here you know like do I have to say that it's another way of saying it or whatever and that kind of brings me to a question which is wouldn't it therefore have been great for you to go and learn those lessons when the stakes weren't so high um because even the stakes are super high at Derby because you're figuring out Frank the manager there yeah and sometimes you don't want to be at the poker table playing with real money yeah but but that's my life you know I I know what you're saying and I think as a as an as a I think I think I can say this I think it's an English ex-player Stephen Gerrard others that have played a high level you know I've played 100 times to our country Etc I think pla the the the the culture in this country is the sort of say right now you're a manager go and own your stripes there because being a player of that level doesn't mean you're going to be a manager so I think that could have been a route where you can kind of get a lot of fair play he went down to you know division two and he's showing what he's doing and there's a process the reality is that path wasn't for me you know and Mel Morris asked me to take the Derby job it was a question yeah challenge yes please I'll take the challenge you know when I won you there and Chelsea came to me it was a
difficult time at a transfer ban you know and as I was leaving it was a real transition young players what's going to be there next year I think probably some big managers just have turned it down I know that so it was like yeah you know what challenge I'll take it so you know I don't want to try and recreate the past I think why didn't I do that because you know I've managed in four years of management I've had some experience and for all the you know you'll always get criticism you know you leave Chelsea people will criticize you you go to Everton you stay up you get relegated people to criticize you but at the same time I'm I am resilient enough to deal with all that stuff now that's been probably the beauty of having a long career in football and so my my thing is I can manage Derby I can go and manage Chelsea and do it to a good level as well because I've had successes as well as when it hasn't gone so well I mean that's the modern day manager so I think I probably crammed in a lot of work in four years and and working at a high end level with players that will test you and question you because Champions League players question you so it's just my path the um I mean that's it so Champions League players questioning you you don't ever assume that happens I mean I don't know a ton about what goes on in the foot in the room but yeah no I think what when I say that I think in um the modern day player particularly I think in previous series it probably would have been more vocal and you know but now the modern day player have a good understanding of the game a lot of them have been coached in academies very very well to a high level uh when they get to the top they also when you when you you know are setting out tactics they they'll have questions for you and and you have to buy into that because you know the reality is what you want is them to understand what you want or sometimes they say something like okay we might change that you know or whatever it might be and I think when you get to the to the top level in football you have to understand the best day out now there's a they have to understand you're the boss and you have to man they're very clear but at the same time there will be a lot of suppliers that will challenge you would
you mean by that boss come to you what what but what about if that happens you know and you get a lot more of that and you I remember reading Pep Guardiola once said that even if you don't know the answer pretend that you know the answer to say that yeah and you know so you there is a version of that because you know when you're getting things thrown at you sometimes it's like you know football is an active game and I think sometimes in the modern day we look at you know on Monday Night Football you see after the event you know they should have done this or people are imagining what um you know Pep Guardiola or yoga club or fantastic coaches are doing and it must be this amazing complicated thing for sure they're amazing coaches but it's an active game so if you can give a good message then the rest is down to the players at the same time so you just have to prep them as well as you can but they will they will challenge it um that that got me thinking about when I sat with um Jamie carragher and he was telling me about all the managers he had had um above him when he was playing at Liverpool and then hearing from all the United players Nanny and ever and Gary and Rio about what Sir Alex was like and and then reading through all of all of the managers that you've worked under I mean there's so many of them from Jose to angelotti um so many of them I mean there was one period where I mean the managers were being sacked every six months it feels like at Chelsea yeah um and the thing I garnered from all of them is that there is actually not a successful blueprint to being a successful manager there's not like a blueprint there's not a way to be a successful manager some of them are tactician some of them are man managers yeah is that accurate it's very accurate I I agree with that um and Chelsea is a bit a bit of a unique example because in my time there they change manager a lot as you say and I don't think that's the most productive way to to run a business in an idle way in terms of football because in an ideal way you kind of go we trust in this manager this work with it here's the idea we're going to go with it and of course it's the prerogative of the honest to change that
what we did have at the time was a fantastic unit within the dressing room of high Talent High personality that led the dressing room so we had a great team and a great Squad and when I say that we had a spine of players of John Terry myself Peter check Didier drummer Ashley Cole I could go on and there were personalities and sometimes would Clash but we knew our place we knew we could rely on him I knew that I would run for him and he'd run for me and we also had high Talent of a player that would video drama would score in every final pretty much so I think we kind of like bridge that gap of changing managers um and so I think when you come back to the the question of you know great managers I think sometimes it's um it's a case of compromising with what you're working with you have to get the people skills right and that's the first thing I learned as a manager for difference and plan is that you have to deal with people you've got to try and Inspire every player within that group and Inspire the collective so every player will have a different motivation it might be money for one it might be I want to be the best striker in the world it might be I want to be in front of him because I don't like him whatever that is you try and tap into and I think the greatest of managers my opinion and I played under as you say a lot and I'm trying to be one is that they give you something that you believe in that you can strive for and you will buy into and this and it's and sometimes it's a messy process you know you watch Man City lift that treble people just now and you listed the Champions League there will be so many things we don't know behind the scenes this player is unhappy had to do this all these things that come together and give you that amazing moment and I had that as Chelsea as a player and so if you just say go and tell me what a great managers and me to go here's an answer for you in one minute it's like impossible to say man management that's what all the United players said about Sir Alex it's the only thing that they all are completely agree on they would say he was the best man manager and um an inconsistent leader which is an interesting concept and what I mean by inconsistent leader is he would treat Gary in a different way to Nanny to Evra and they all told
me their stories and Rio as well told me about when um Sir Alex brought that bottle of whiskey to his ill grandfather's bedside and Rio doesn't know how we knew the favorite brand of whiskey and how we knew his Grandad was Ill yeah Gary told me he used to tap him on the shoulder and say think about your fault your grandfather's shrapnel which is still in his shoulder when you go out there today that kind of bespoke tailored approach to leadership which is seems to be Sir Alex Ferguson's um highest accent made sure and I think that runs into the modern day like we get very caught up in in tactics and rightly so the game's moved on from those days tactically but those people and and you'll know yourself you know inspiring people and as you say to be bespoke and kind of individualize it and look within the group and have moments because you know if you ask me about my career you go like Frank would you remember out of those 20 years like do you remember the meeting where Jose you know played you a bit higher up I wouldn't he said do you remember the time that Jose said those words to you that inspired you and it could be like one sentence I go yeah I remember that do you know I mean like things that stick with me that I remember that made me go I'm gonna I'm gonna run for this man he's gonna make me better you know and I had that and I think so what you just said there about Sir Alex Ferguson I think the great managers to have you look at and they have it in different styles Pep Guardiola yoga and klopp everyone will have a different style of that and that's a huge part to their success I think what do you like as a manager if you had to do like a self-assessment I think you go you can ask somebody else now I don't know um I know I try and be uh close to the players as I say my open door thing but at the same time I think I I try and find a balance I I think the important thing for me was when I became a manager was to not expect anybody any player to see it how I saw it or train how I trained or whatever you know for good or for bad and you have to that's I think a bit of a skill which you know sir Alex probably had perfectly so I try and be as close to the players I try and learn
all the time I'm a coach I want a coach on the pitch I think my biggest pleasure is coaching and improving players and particularly young players and I've had the you know the fortune to work with some really good jump players at Derby I had Mason Mountain Harry Wilson for Kayo tomorrow and then at Chelsea obviously Tommy Abraham extra ones and yeah and Anthony Gordon Etc so I think they are the real sponges that are a real pleasure to work with and I love that part of it being able to speak to them and you do find and it's a reality and I remember being an older player you're a bit more cynical when you're a younger player you're like they're like a blank canvas and you can you know push them and try and push them in that so I'm probably quite intense with the younger players um I try and be as I say inclusive and I'm always trying to learn um and and try and just trying to be me it's a hard answer that one I think you'd have to ask you know maybe a member of Staff or a player I picked the right player because you probably get different answers because when you work with I worked at Chelsea recently with 30 players I picked you pick 11 for a game and like eight subs and the subs eight Outfield Subs the subs don't really like you because they're not starting let alone the other 10 you know so it's a really hard balance with a modern Squad to to get there but you have to try and make it inclusive because if you're going to get anywhere you've got to go all together and that was one of the problems for being Chelsea this season 30 players is it's not possible to manage that on the other this isn't maybe this is even more difficult question what are you trying to work on then what are the the areas of as a leader as a manager you're trying to work on because I can think of for myself I can think of a number of areas where I go you know what that is still somewhere where I have a recurring when I reflect in hindsight I go I need to get better here what is that for you quite a few things I would say because um the other thinker thing comes in again and I'm a bit of a perfectionist so you know I always want to try and improve um
you know my tactical and and the personal touch and those things but I think when I came away from Chelsea I realized I needed to delegate time better that was something I was certainly not great at I've got you you have your staff for a reason they're there to support you in a time they'll be better than you at certain things so give them it you know and give them that you obviously oversee that thing and I probably spent a lot of time um trying to be across everything whereas really I probably could have come back from that and save my own energy so I think I'll certainly try and improve that side I did between Chelsea and Everton for sure to try and save that I can um uh be pretty overreactive sometimes if I see things I don't like in terms of and when I study it's always effort or standards and I think I I am that's one of the things I'm biggest on is that you know if you're going to make a mistake in a game I've got no problem with that um if you are going to not run for your teammate if you're not going to train through the week with an idea that when I train on Monday that's got a direct relation to what Saturday is going to look like if that feeling isn't there then I probably can either get upset with a player or maybe kind of distance to player and I think when you're working with a group you have to be careful of that one because not every player has your mentality so you have to either try and bring them up to the party or if not then they're going to have to not be there if you're going to have success as far as I see it and that sounds really harsh but it's one of those things where you go if you can work in a in a in a team and you're going to take it to exactly where you want it to be out of that Squad of 25 if you've got that kind of I remember manager would say this you have you know that there's your six or seven you know you're going to get every day you're going to train you're going to come in they're going to be so active every day you're going to have the middle group or somewhere in the middle and you had the ones that maybe I'm just coming to training you know or you know I'm a bit sore today
you know that sounds simplistic to say but you have to try and work if you want to work in a full Direction and go okay those six are with me right you try and Garner them those are the ones that can kind of pass the message those ones in the middle okay can we keep pushing and working between me and the staff to try and improve them and then the ones that are there come on can we help them can they come with us if not you have to speak to the club and that's where a club has to be aligned to go okay if you want to go in that direction and we're with you okay we'll work that out and that becomes a recruitment or players leaving the club I mean that's you know that's that's the reality that has to be and that's the reality of business as well um uh I've just finished writing this book and it talks about these three lines and basically says if everybody in think about a person in your team and if everybody in the team represented their cultural values right which is what you're talking about with your six disciples there if everybody represented the cultural values with the bar with the overall Barbie raised or lowered and you'll have some people who would imagine if everyone was like them like a Frank you know a Frank Lampard or a John Terry how high that the cultural values would be raised then you have other people where if everyone was like them you'd be relegated yeah and and what to do with those three cohorts of bar raises maintainers and barlowers and that's kind of what I that's a good way of putting it I mean I and I think the I think the bar raises can take some time to raise the bar but the balras can get you very quickly yeah yeah that's kind of my experience because that kind of when that kind of that consistency or whatever it is you know like this oh why are we doing this train why do we have to do or whatever that kind of negativity which can slip in can be really contagious and in a winning Sport and as much as we're talking here about great managers winning is is everything you know and it's that's obviously relative to if you're a man city or in Everton like Everton will win kind of 35 40 of games at Best at the moment and you know that so you know that they're going to be 65 or so percent of weeks whereas not that great the balras can go and they lower
it quickly whereas you know if you can get the razors to take control um then they that then I think generally you can kind of get there so it's a really important thing that's probably one of the interesting things that as I say that the transition from player to manager trying to get that because if you whether you were one of the bar raisers or you're in the middle group or the Law Group when you become a manager it doesn't matter what you were you've got to kind of get there get the scripts of what it is and kind of just push um so that that's something I'm trying to improve on everything all the time and coming away sometimes give you nice time to to have perspective and just kind of go I'm going to put it in line a little bit and it looks a bit different to what I thought before that experience in yeah this is I mean I guess this is why some of the the greatest managers of all time they hold on to their Gary Neville's and their you know their disciples yeah and I've spoken to Gary about this Gary said to me in fact when we're filming Dragonstone recently he said for those last two years Sir Alex kept me there because of the my impact on the dressing room yeah not my impact on the pitch but on the dressing room I could keep keep the standard High um in the modern world I was reading the stats managers are getting fired quicker than ever sure and it almost it must be so difficult to establish Authority when the play is aware um that the manager is going to be the one to be taken out if things don't go well in business it's not like that right as a CEO because I own the company and I am the manager yeah so if there's if there's Behavior underneath me that's toxic and contagious I can act yeah the center of authorities with me yeah whereas it seems like in a club the center of authority is really like the chairman the owner yeah um sometimes the manager manages manages to get there but in the modern world we don't let managers last long enough to build that Authority no and that's the tough world that it is and I think you know you probably have to earn the right as a manager to get to a club maybe when you look at the perfect models right at the top you know and Manchester City is a good one to talk about now I work with
the city group I have one year playing there and I could see when I was there they hadn't arrived at that point but I could see with the stability from above and how it run and the vision it was like we're gonna get they were going to get somewhere because they had a great structure and it wasn't like it was going to get pulled and pushed and pulled for you know a small period of time so we're going to get there and then they hired pep you know they had not difficult first year but the first year was kind of him finding his way I need this I need this and then he's fantastic coach and they have great players but if you don't have that aligned thing where as you said the most important person at the club in the modern day in my opinion is the owner and it is a structure at the top because they really they set the time maybe it's financially maybe it's with the sporting directors and recruitment because you'll be as good as the players you recruit a great manager again I don't want to sit here and drop names that said to me was when we finished it um my first thing that Everton we just stayed up skin of our teeth and he was like randomly to say congratulations he went Frank don't rest 80 of your work for next season will be done in the next month so it was recruitment so like 20 will be what you do next year and now the 80 is like bringing the right players so I think you know like that that alignment as I keep saying there is something that you know if you can get um and and I know I know they're great owners and they're great supporting directors and Recruitment and the manager and the manager is so you know critical to it but when you look at last season 13 managers left their Club I think it's 13 out of 20 clubs and you're talking about you know Antonio Conte and you're talking about Thomas you know manages at huge successes it shows you that the landscape's changed to the point where the manager will be culpable and I think you have to come you have to be at peace with that but you have to try and get to the point very quickly where you have success and that's tough because winning is and the modern world of social media and reaction is like get him out you know get the next one in you know sometimes maybe they're right maybe the manager is culpable but other times
there are there are many things and to come back to your original point about players and those stallwalls and the Gary Neville's and the James Milner at Liverpool in the last whatever years you know people on the outside I think it's very easy to look at the superstars and most sellers in there I I can guarantee you and I know this firsthand from speaking to people people like James Milner and Jordan Henderson have absolutely set the tone of that club for the last whatever years during great success and if you don't have that kind of those drivers within that top six all right I think it's very hard to sustain its success or get success and again back to my Chelsea days we had that naturally and we were actually quite diverse so it was like John Terry was like the real Captain like heart on his sleeve you could see it every day I was probably like more quiet but like a trainer and standards and myself and trying to hope that that would bring people with us Didier was this sort of charismatic from the Ivory Coast and kind of brought in you know that section of the dressing room and he took a pair of checks about five languages Ashley Carl was such a nice lad and you know best left back the country's probably ever seen so we had this amazing group and like if others aren't going to follow that then very quickly it was like you're not going to make it regardless of the manager change it's like you want you won't survive the dressing room and that's kind of how it was it reminded me of a quote that I've said on this podcast before which is when the culture is strong the new people become the culture and when the coaches week the culture becomes the new people right because when you have those that cord of disciples someone coming in they'll stand out so much yeah if they don't fit in with you Didier Frank Etc that they'll instantly be expelled yeah but when the culture is weak someone will come in and they'll actually influence yeah the Dynamics and that's when you're really from my experience in business is when you're really really screwed no that's interesting because I think in football as well because it's so topical it's just so much conversation around it that you know I managed to Chelsea for seven weeks I think I did and I spoke a lot about
standards and I was a bit I'm not saying standards to him I saw you say in every post match yeah I know it wasn't like not trying to be clever and go I'm just gonna this is my line now standards but it was like it was very evident to me when I walked in um because you know having worked at Chelsea as a coach before and as a player I I do know the standards I do know that and this is not a direct criticism of the players either because when I look at the player situations where they were and I understood how it'd been a long year I walked in on with 10 games to go they've been there for the whole season and a lot of players were not playing they were probably going to leave which we're seeing now whether they were going to leave with a club wanted some leave or they or they hadn't been playing with the previous managers and I could see in training that it wasn't the level wasn't enough it wasn't enough to go and get a result you know whoever you might want to say a Brentford at home or at let alone Real Madrid it wasn't enough and I can say this now because I said this to the players and again it's not an individual criticism that applies because I also when you're trying to say you want to be a manager you have to have a personal understanding of like human nature if I'm a player that's not been planned for the last seven months and I think I'm leaving in four weeks time I'm probably going to struggle to motivate that player you know I'm not I've Got Magic one to motivate that player so I think it was that probably the my biggest learning out of Chelsea was when you talk about standards and culture I think people get it talks about standards you know what he talks about his culture and I you know maybe I had to catch myself on and not cite every interview but at the same time it was if you don't have a building block of Standards then that winning culture that everyone goes what's winning culture you go well then me up I'll try and explain to you but it has to start with a basic standard and which for me is always like trained to a level where you're going to push your teammate he's going to push you and then we're going to be as competitive as it can be we don't have to win not every team can win you know this Manchester City pretty much win the league every year at the
minute so what's success for everybody else for Brighton it's coming six or whatever for Newcastle it's wow Champions League that's huge success so everyone has a version but my guess is those teams that have over performed outperformed they've got something there which is a basic standard that they just build on and you know to be fair to Chelsea they're in a position now where that's needs to be worked on again it's a transitional time that brings me to the quote you said after your Newcastle game which was the standards collectively have dropped I can be honest now um because it's your last game I might not see them for some time anymore but low standards are a symptom of something further Upstream that's happened and we saw this at Manchester United I'm a big man united fan I've seen a a decade five years of just like chaos where we've got these amazing players but one plus one equals 1.5 we call it dis economies of scale yeah in great culture one plus one equals three you know where you can make great average players together play yeah amazing the football of their lives the furthest Upstream thing where did the standard start to slip what is the thing that happens in a club like Chelsea in your experience when you went back there that had caused that dropping of Standards which we now saw on the pitch with your sort of 10 games there well I think um when I was tongue-in-cheek by the way when I said I'm not going to see them again because it was a bit like as I said I wouldn't say I've hadn't said it to him and I've said it a few times but the position of it was that and I think the biggest thing about the standards thing was the the size of the squad it was the the motivation of players that um you're gonna not play or you're out of the Champions League squad or these things like it's like asking you know one of you you I don't know you maybe love doing this this is like one of your great mom you know I want to sit and you want to speak to all these fantastic people that you speak to so thanks for your prep Steven now Peter Jones is going to do it cheers how long are you going to go with that yeah so and I think in football that's is that's a challenge with 20 or so players which is the modern Squad but
with with Chelsea it's got very big to the point where it's just how I felt where I can say you know I'm not criticizing that player for a dropping standards I want to try and get something out of him because I had a short period I want to try and get something out of him so I'll try but then when you actually look at it you kind of go yeah but he's had this for a long time where he's not playing so he's not now being competitive with that player who is playing so that plays pretty comfortable too because he's not pushing him so you kind of get this thing where you're like you know we probably took it for granted in some of my better days at Chelsea when we were successful of like this kind of thing that works you know it wasn't even a thing you said you know you didn't have to sort of have a meeting every day and go you know one of those standards culture you know a nice pie chart and that's what that is it was almost like this is what we do and at the minute sometimes for whatever reason there's a transition of maybe new ownership you know not everything was perfect before the new ownership I was there before no ownership as well like to find consistency as Chelsea would really want of winning Premier League titles and challenging has been a good few years now so I think that getting the squad right um being able probably a fresh voice as a manager coming in now who's obviously a fantastic manager with a great record to come in and go no this is the way and now the squad looks compact you're going to compete with each other and try and create a great environment everyone is a great environment to have success you know you cannot have a success with that team spirit and togetherness so when I got there I could just see that that the the spirit and the togetherness was not then it was nothing bad you know like it was not bad to go for the week I could just see like you have to train Elite to be elite you have to and that's not you know the Monday players play every few days sometimes when I say that it's not like show me how many Sprints you can do every day it's like okay if we're doing prep tomorrow give me that intensity of of thought about what what this is for you and I mean sit in your face but in the Chelsea when you did that you had to
go right if I want to really focus on the 10 or 11 for tomorrow that means I've got to have like 18 players over there and you kind of saw the body language as they walked off some of them that they were like again because they've been having it all season some of them so I on a human level I completely understood and in the end it was like I came back here because obviously this was an opportunity to come to my club you know Chelsea a Club close to my heart but as soon as I got in I realized that probably I thought you know what 30 players but I can motivate in six seven weeks because it's not like a long term thing I can come in and be fresh um but in terms of when I came in I noticed very quickly that some players are probably thinking about the season's going to Peter out and what's the future going to look like and that was a a difficult situation it never crossed my mind that's the size of the squad has such a big impact but it makes perfect sense because you need that sort of healthy competition and I believe your first team was was it 32 players yeah which is more than you're allowed to register for the Premier League or Champions League so you had this kind of surplus of a lot of players a few a few are always injured probably you know so that comes down a bit but it's a surplus and it's a surplus of um yeah the the the makeup of the squad is International Players generally because if there were a couple of young players but when you try and build a squad it'll be like this is you know this is my core kind of 15 or 16 and then you go and maybe these these two experienced players that might not need to play really and then we've got these kids that are waiting and they're like just happy to be there they want to play they're going to be training and if you give them an opportunity they'll be like but when you have like international players in a big number then of course you know you're telling Internationals you've got to stay at home it's not it's not easy and you know to have the conversation every Friday with them and get them lined up coming in is also not easy for your own energy do you know what I mean so I that's not easy I don't care how what kind of uh a manager you are like it's like next you're not
playing okay next you're not playing you know like whatever however you try and box that up to a player eventually they'll probably have I know I'm not playing you know like stop telling me this do you know what I mean so I think you know that that was an interesting learning curve for me like an interim job is is what it is um and I kept getting asked you know people it was kind of frustrating but at times like are you finding this so hard and you find this hard I was like you know what I'm back home in the club that I love you know a fantastic training around I'm doing everything I can in this job to try and improve it but there were I knew behind the scenes there are a lot of things you know myself and my staff we want to improve but we want to coach we want to sort of when you when you lack those Basics and as I say I I think there's an understanding the club that it has to change now I think it has to it has to change then if you like those Basics then it it's really hard to get where you want to get to what how does that happen though so there's these 32 players and then Chelsea spends more money than it I think anyone's ever spent in a window in that sort of January window you bring in all of these players on these long contracts which I've never heard before I think it was like eight year contracts and they're all like class amazing individual players um is that a is that because the the new owner doesn't understand those dynamics of football because that's what it seemed like for me I thought either this is a genius or an idiot yeah you know I don't want to criticize anyone like on a personal level but as a fan looking and I go signing these players on eight year contracts they're great players spending all this money the impact on culture when you just throw stars in at such quantity yeah it looked it looked like an experience and um naivety I think that's um that's understood now in terms of what it's meant with those 30 players and I think you've seen that now in that already I think I'm six seven eight players have left so I think but the intentions are certainly good I know that because I work the owners gave me an opportunity
to go in there and I had a good relationship with them their intentions to do a good job at Chelsea are amazing they want to take the club and be the best you know they have great intentions so now I think those younger players now with um a new voice a new manager the squad come inside I think they'll have a greater chance to show what they've got anyway and they're talented players and you know I remember being in Chelsea when Eden Hazard arrived and pre-season was like is this kid maybe a bit lazy looking you know it was a bit kind of strolling around this kid definitely and then that first season it was like I know it's really good and then on the second and Thursdays like now this kid's one of the best players the Premier League's seen or whatever see everyone video drug but like you can go through all these players who are who are like absolute Legends now if you're asking you know those five six seven players to come in and hit the ground running in a difficult moment for the club it's understandable so I think as a Chelsea fan you know you look at it and kind of go right okay that that is positive there's Talent there okay it needs to be worked with now I'm sure that you can see the squads getting trimmed and as I can say you know hand on heart the intentions of the owners is absolutely no they've spent that money because they want to do well now if they're going to address the situation a bit that's their strategy going forward but I do think you know you'll see players like Enzo Fernandez Madrid and these players madoiki young players they're going to develop and they're going to be big players for the club they you have to get the structure writing the strategy right going forward what what's a my thing is that adding like I know six or seven of these players all at once pretty much halfway through the season um in a squad that's already struggling to figure out who it is under Graham Potter um it begs the question like who's doing the recruitment here because at other clubs it's a much more Strate it seems like a much more strategic and intentional and football driven approach to recruitment whereas from what I saw at Chelsea and I have actually spoken to some people at Chelsea who are involved
in recruitment it seemed like chaos yeah I mean I wasn't there for that period right so that was in I got there in April and like so January was the last window and obviously they spent last summer but I think the the change of ownership and then obviously there's some people moved on who were in the hierarchy of the club and so they was changing so there was a big change of structure so I think you have to give um some time and some leeway for the process and they're certainly now are sporting directors recruitment people in there having work with them who are very talented very hungry you know good to go and I think now it will be um up to them to take the club forward they haven't signed bad players I think this maybe the the strategy of bringing them all in at that time you know looks a bit excitable at the minute as in terms of there's a lot of players to success but I think probably there's a long game and I think there's a plan and I think probably most huge clubs like Chelsea have had a version of what this period is Manchester United you mentioned there Arsenal for quite a long time Liverpool for periods you know so I think um we have to give different I think to to over judge now when I think they have signed some good players would be to to be over critical I think at the moment I think that the proof will be now how these players develop once now it feels a bit more settled going forward I think that's I think that's all true I think um what's the optimal way for player recruitment to happen in your opinion because I've you often hear about these stories of where you know I know will take charge of a club and then they'll just decide who they want which is probably what I'd be like if I was an owner I think I would like football manager I think I just buy who I who I want to buy who I think looks good um Manchester United suffered with that it felt like our decisions were commercial decisions as opposed to footballing decisions then when Eric 10 hugs come in it feels a bit more like kids football decisions and what in your opinion and then I did speak to some people at Chelsea because I actually went to I was invited to uh sit with Richard Arnold in a couple of the Manchester United Executives and when we played Chelsea at
Old Trafford I was in the director's box okay so I sat with the like sport the new sporting director at Chelsea yeah um and he said there's now two sporting directors I believe yeah um so it's interesting to talk to them um but what is the about the optimal way for recruitment to happen in your opinion well I think um with a with a you have to understand what you want the the philosophy and the identity of the club to be so for instance I think Manchester City are quite firm in the idea when they the pep guardios come in and they're sporting directors have worked at Barcelona previously with him that this is how we want to play this is a manager that's going to deliver that style so here's how we recruit for that style Chelsea has always been a bit different for me the the beautiful game the ticket package is called a man city has not been Chelsea style it's been more of a winning machine and different kind of way you know and in my day was more of a powerful team that was probably were good on the eye but we were not that kind of you know past past we were like powerful and effective so I think you have to understand what you want to be and once you get to that point you probably the first thing is to recruit a coach that you know Works within that and then you know that's the kind of Coach you want because this is one obey those conversations or an interview process and then once you get to that point I think the recruitment has to be joined up depending on how active the owner wants to be and I I respect and appreciate active owners as their clubs their prerogative and then the sporting directors and the manager and then obviously recruitment which brings all the data analysis into the picture and it has to be joined up and it has you have to be all very confident by the time you want to bring in a player that you're going yeah this is the play we want to bring in they're always one or two or three options because you may not get Target number one but I think you have to be able to recruit for the style that you want to be so the coach really has to have a big buy into that as well but you as a coach in the Monday you understand and the process I appreciate being aligned and having other people not just responsible for who you're
bringing in but also like giving me something that I don't know I'm not there siphon through the data you know they have to show you that data and here's the reasons why the videos people have watched them and also the personality of the player because not to say you're going to sign you know 10 James milners because their character's amazing and they're professionalism but you need to know they're going to come in and address room who's going to they're going to be good for the dressing room and they're going to help in terms of how you drive forward in terms of their personality one of the one of the key questions I want to answer and I wanted to ask you today is like how would you have what would have had to happen to avoid the situation where you had that unhealthy culture at Chelsea behind the scenes in those when you came back in as the interim what would have what could you have done to avoid that happening say you're in the you know if you were if you could in hindsight have a wand and correct things that were done I get the first point which was about smaller Squad size um what else what else avoids that from my from my first day in there you're you're a um a genie and you can know what you know about the what you inherited there what would have had to be done previously to avoid you inheriting that the smallest Squad is the first thing that I got yeah smaller Squad I mean some things are just a bit you know like there there are phases you know and I think Chelsea um they won the Champions League I left they won the Champions League like three or four months after I left and at that point you kind of go okay where's the next move and you kind of go at how was recruitment then how what things worked then and maybe some players left during that period maybe in terms of recruitment you wanted to bring in maybe some people be like the the future in terms of that I when I was at Chelsea before I wanted to bring in Declan rice I was like this this kid's gonna be the the captain of Chelsea for the next you know 10 years it didn't happen but anyway but I think in terms of those things it's hard for me to sit here and kind of dissect you know other people's
work in that period in between you know like I would have maybe had an idea it wasn't my idea because I'd already left the club so maybe like when I came in it was it's not it's really hard for me to kind of dissect all those moves you know I came into what I came into so you know that's I think I'd probably be a little bit casual for me to kind of go they should have done this you know like yeah it's a hindsightly one that's yeah it's kind of me wondering just because I've been a man united fan and I've seen that happen and I saw obviously Sir Alex Ferguson leave and then we just had these 10 years of what I describe as like confused chaos and I'm trying to figure out almost like how an innocer Alex Ferguson situation how he we could have avoided that if at all possible yeah I mean it's such a big figure um that's difficult isn't it I don't know enough about Manchester United but I do I can understand why after Sir Alex leaving and also pivotal players will probably come into the end of their time during the same time as him leaving to replace that and keep moving forward I mean you can there might have been mistakes and it's not my thing but I can understand why it feels like a long period for a club the size of Manchester United but it just shows you that I think that how Cutthroat and fast moving this premier league is because if you come off the gas guess in terms of recruitment or whatever or you have a bad time coming back up there people think oh yeah you know you're Chelsea you've been a Champions League again next year or Arsenal you'll be there like I still had to work a long time to come back and challenge for The League last year with a lot of work and you know people were criticizing in the beginning and now you know they've worked together and stuck together and recruited really well and now they're ready to go so I mean it's not I don't think we should expect even you being a Manchester United fan or me having a Chelsea head on that next year it's going to be great like it's everyone else is moving forward too you know when you get that call the interim Court you've just left Everton yeah um you're out of work um grandpot has been released from his responsibilities what's going through your head when they
say we want you to come back in and take an into a managing role if I was a flyer on the wall and when that phone call happens um you nearly were yeah so I know yeah I mean I wasn't going to tell the story but no I could tell it for you I was coming to meet you and I rang you to say sorry I'm gonna become Chelsea manager that that meeting they you know people arrived at my house that afternoon so well just because you didn't tell me that exactly you said I can't come and I Can't Tell You Why then I told you after that yeah you told me okay but I'm not an idiot yeah all right okay I kind of inferred maybe okay so anyway I mean no I think probably the the it's normal that I consider everything and you know I probably considered it as in firstly it's a club very close to my heart as I said before a challenge of working and it was like we had two games against Real Madrid and we had the season to pan out we had a difficult running so I was fully aware of that um and I know maybe like you know I do love a challenge if that challenge had been probably any other club other than Chelsea I probably would have said no I was very happy to be at home as such in that period I wasn't fighting to get a job at that period um so it was probably a bit of head and heart um I'm not sure what probably heart probably was a bit more substantial in this one than the head because I suppose if you look back again we're in that hindsight position but you know what were my neck what will my positive outcomes what are my negative ones the minute we didn't get through against Real Madrid which probably a lot of people would have bet on um you're kind of into that zone of end of season and what you're playing for as a club like Chelsea and that's not the normal Chelsea should be playing for something and in the end we played for not so much and of course another reason my motivation come down so I probably could have been a bit more ahead of the game than that whether that would have changed my mind I don't have a regret about doing it I went back there if people from the outside want to um you know
criticize or have a view on it from the outside for six or seven weeks work I've got no problem with that I worked at Chelsea before I worked at other clubs and you know it's another experience it wasn't my most favorite experience in my footballing career I won't lie but it's an experience and I have learned out of it not so not so much but I've mentioned a few of the things not your favorite experience did you enjoy it be honest um I enjoyed the first few weeks I felt like I was back at Cobham I know so many people there I was like into the challenge in the middle bit I probably started to understand more that there's there's a lack of you know what we've spoken about um and then in the last week we had Man City away Manchester United away in Newcastle at home as I run in and I was like okay let's get through this week because I could see that the players were ready for the season to finish you know it's again some of it I got on a human level does not hurt you to some degree like because you love this club so much and you're a winner and if you see these players have checked out you're you know it's not just they're checking out on you as a manager but they're checking out in the club that you love yeah as a general as a general it didn't hurt me because having worked in football for a period never been a player a long time I've seen a lot of these instances and I'm not holding the players to my standard as such and and a lot of them I didn't know the backstory in the Side Stories I could get that they were moving on so you know if a player is moving on they might just not you know they might not be ready for those last few games they might have a bit of an issue or something and you know but there's no way that you you can accept that there's no but but is it like well put it this way I don't wanna I don't want to come here and Shout too much because in a short period um it's hard for me to make too many statements what I will say is that I think I unders I understood the role of being interim and I understood that probably there was not much there's certainly not much the game for me saying uh that was so bad or that was so bad now because when I look back I'll
probably just try and take my own thing out of it and I don't I don't want to go there I didn't work long enough with the players to be there to one guy and I can't believe that happened at the end of the season you know I walked into a position with some of them were a bit disenchanted or whatever and I'm not going to tell that that player that you shouldn't feel like this but I'll try and drive them and drive them amongst the group but it's not for me to go because a lot of players will sit with a couple of players sat with me and said listen I'm going to be leaving in the summer and find it a bit difficult I'm like okay I get that I'm not going to change that in four weeks or whatever so yeah so what was the objective then in the in the four weeks when you're thinking about when you realized that what was the sort of behind the scenes context do your objective shifts and shifts slightly and go okay success here looks now looks like this for me yeah in reality and I didn't get that because it would be results you know because everyone would um would judge me on results so in terms of me it would be success here to have got better results in that period of time and come through there working at a high level Club again you know it's it's extreme pressures it's the media is the Players it's everything is trying to get results in games and in some games we competed against Real Madrid we competed against Manchester City we competed but you know that wasn't to be but that was my version of success but you know football is not that simple you know so many journalists ask you after if you you kind of like regret taking the job and your answer's always been like no because I've learned a lot it's your Club it's Chelsea um however had you known the context and this is only something we can know in hindsight we can't know it in foresight if there was some magic Genie that could have shown you the context the behind the scenes the Dynamics the 32 players the culture honestly do you think you would have made a different decision because I think I would have yeah but we don't have hindsight obviously we it's a magical thing that yeah but I think probably and you and you might think I'm
wrong for saying this but you would probably be taking some emotion out of it from my point and also just how I am about the challenge of going into that so if you say all right all the context is here Frank but you're not going to know what the results are yet but here's all the context you know this player is disenchanted I kind of knew that this is how it's working I'm not I would be like okay this is what I've got to work with can I get results and whether I was um misguided in my own thoughts I probably would have gone yeah I would do that if I've got to be honest it's too easy for me to say I wouldn't have done it for that and and nobody gave me that what you said if you had that in an Ideal World I understand what you're saying and again that's why people might look I don't I generally don't have a problem with you know someone how I would possibly have a view from the outside on someone doing what I did I don't think it's like changed the world I think my I played for 13 years at Chelsea I've coached them before in the Champions League for two years on the truck like I don't think that whether people want to have a view on me I don't worry about about that I went back for that challenge at that period and you know we didn't get the results I wanted I know a lot of the reasons why I'll take the responsibility for my reasons why um and that was it you know I don't have a big issue with it it's like because it's Chelsea's so topical you manage chose it's one of the biggest clubs in the world and it's it's one of those clubs that takes so much especially in the Roman Abram which is so much interest because there's a turnover you know lose one or two games and it's like oh what's happening here so you know it's uh I'm big enough and strong enough to handle that stuff so you would have having seen the context you would have backed yourself regardless I don't regardless that sounds like I'm thinking I'm some Superman that turned out not to be Superman you know what I mean I don't I don't I don't know you're asking me so hypothetical the season ends eventually um relief relieved in any way how do you feel it um the last as I said last couple of weeks were quite tough because
it was seeing that season that's not for someone like me and for a club like Chelsea like it's not a nice place to be you know I want to want to challenge for things and that's that's not nice I release probably yeah um because I knew it would end and it ended and it wasn't that nice of time time to have holidays that I've planned before yeah for sure um and time to reflect and I haven't got a huge amount of Reflections on it you know a lot of people have but I haven't I've got more Reflections on the year at Everton and a 18 months at Chelsea before in Derby this this period was so abstract in a way for me that interim rail was so different that I I can't put it into a context of like I wish I'd gone on a meeting on day one if I'd have done a meeting about culture I think they would it would have changed like I don't it wouldn't have changed you know if my tactics were slightly different in that game I don't believe it would have changed and me overthink I would definitely think that if it was there so you know I might be right or wrong but so I don't so relief and a feeling of like I wish they'd gone better you know that's really nature and I wanted it to be better because I'm Chelsea person you know the Chelsea fans are fantastic with me in this modern world I'm not saying Flick online you'll find everyone fantastic but in terms of Stanford bridge I think there's an understanding at the moment the club's not where he wants to be and Chelsea fans actually pretty good with that there's some other clubs that would be like we lost at home to Brentford two-nil and like there'll be some clubs that would be fans that would be a bit more vocal they were actually pretty good I think you know they're waiting to see something better this year but they've also Chelsea fans watch the team in the second division in the in the 80s and and seen some struggles over the years you know the old Affair and so I do think that the success that they've enjoyed as a club for these 20 years or so it's a real appreciation of it and you know I don't want to go on forever but I do think they understand it's a difficult moment I certainly felt that at Stamford Bridge yeah they were super they were chanting your name even at all traffic when I was there yeah um even though the scoreline
wasn't great and yeah I actually do think that the Chelsea fans have understood that the new ownership what you said to their intentions are good yeah and I think they can they can respect they've brought really good players there's a transitional moment but I think they they all appreciate that um all of that stuff all of that noise online Christine you family you said mentioned scrolling online how does one yeah keep those two worlds apart so that you can focus on your job without letting the outside world in too much wait so have you got a strategy what's your I don't scroll too much you don't scroll no scroll at all very very occasionally do you have the apps the social networking apps and stuff I have Instagram right okay which I'm not but I have an Instagram page but I'm not very active on it's just not really me um so I don't really I scroll for like nosiness you know what I run up to and then I have a few friends and stuff or whatever um but I don't actively do it because uh let's say I don't have the time to do it in terms of myself it's just not something and I appreciate anyone else wants to show themselves you know somebody then or in a gym like that's their prerogative I've got no problem with that I just it's for me it's just not something I do and then doing that's a nice light I'm quite a boxer in my life when I said that I mean I box off things and when I on a box of I don't want to hear that um you know what some fan and sound so he's gonna say about me here and flick on the comments from a Chelsea post I would just flick by that I try and stay aware of media because I think it's I do press conferences every four days you have to understand what the tone is of what maybe people are writing about you or you know the journalists how do you how do you do that have you got like someone that comes and briefs you in the morning yeah and they tell you what you need to know yeah uh okay yeah yes and I would I would tap into it a bit in the week whether I'm flicking on certain websites through the week and I wouldn't obviously go in into the story Into the comments so we'll kind of go into because you've got to be across things I will do that but I think it's very
unhealthy to to scroll but I I found that as a my playing career missed out the social media came in towards the end and I'm so thankful we used to just have the newspapers giving us like three out of ten when we played for England and we got knocked out of the World Cup right and that was hard about looking at the paper to see what they gave you and that was a version of that and then the social media so I I don't envy the modern player as a manager I think it's a bit different I'm not in a place where I scroll so I've done in videos younger players men and women now that are coming through and have sort of household names and it's getting so much attention and so much of its negative I think it's incredible that we got to that stage that there's that amount of hate for but it's so easy to be hateful um and my my I would try and say to the young players don't look at it but the minute the game finishes they're flicking and it's it's difficult in your professional career what has been what do you kind of count down as the hardest moment in terms of scrutiny in your professional and like you're playing create and you managerial career what is been not the hardest moment for you playing for England really yeah it was 2006 the 2006 World Cup I think I had wrote the record for shots a goal without scoring classic isn't they disallowed one that should have gone in that was in 2010 okay so 2006 I think I had like 32 shots or something I went in as England player of the year I'd had a good year or two playing for England so I got myself in there and was becoming you know uh you know in fiction the same and then I went there having scored some goals in the lead up scoring at Chelsea and just had a tournament and it wouldn't go in for me and then that played on my mind and games I was like second guessing myself a little bit in the game and probably off the back of that there's a lot of criticism um for myself for some others I remember us Chelsea boys getting a lot of criticism for the next six months every away game that we went to was like you let your country Down the song how does that compare to being a manager in terms of criticism I found it harder as a player I don't know whether it's
just maturity um because uh as a player I don't know maybe it's in my 20s um I found it harder as a manager I think it's a it's a different version of criticism and um I think as a player I don't know why I found it harder if I'm a flyer on the wall after a bad defeat what do I see you probably see a bit of uh of a going over the situation kind of face um and it's different I have certain games that they will affect you and it might not be the one you'd expect you know the Manchester United you talked about there we lost 4-1 was it and that one might be different because I kind of know where we're at this season's Peter and out you know we play some good stuff I don't know whatever and there might be another game that you know we lost and it really affected me because maybe think something I did or should have done or a substitution so on those bad ones you would see the face and you know like I would you know I kind of go into my show I was like I'm soaking in my bedroom I'm big big boy you know um but you know maybe I have a glass of wine stew on it don't get to bed till quite late and then you have to go again you know like it's a great sort of adage that you can people go you learn more from defeat you don't feel like that straight away but you have to be big enough to go over the game again what's the strategy now what's the you know the solution to that what do we do wrong and and that's what it is you can't get too down but we're all human when you were um 29 years old um one such moment occurred in your life that really I think from your own words tested you at a much deeper level you described yourself as being a zombie for a year after the passing of your mother and she died at 58 years old um while you were playing and while you were playing at the very very highest level that for me struck when I was reading through the way you described that moment in your life struck me as a real sort of destabilizing moment in terms of focus and all of those things the question that I um the question that I had is how as a player when you're playing at the highest level and you have something like that happen how do you show up and
maintain those standards and be Frank Lampard that's probably what I meant when I said zombie because it became autopilot and I think um when you talk about mental health that's the one time that I've been challenged to the extreme with it and you know a lot of people go through this and that was the really interesting thing I found because I have some perspective now these years later is that when it happens to you and it's unexpected it's very sudden for me you you've never thought about that kind of thing happening before the only thing I'll say is this I was I was a mummy's boy as I've said before so I used to have these weird um moments I don't know if you have them I have them sometimes when I think about death and I kind of go oh God when you die there's nothing and I have those moments and it hits me in the stomach for about like four seconds I'm driving along I'm like there's nothing there's absolutely nothing and then you go oh I don't know where you've got to go to you know and life carries on and I used to have that with my mum and then it was probably Reliance I had to know she was I was so like mummy's boy you know growing up so I remember as I got a little bit older like to my teens and I was like imagine mum wasn't there for a moment it was a panic for like 10 seconds I remember them and then because it was 29 as you say and it was very sudden it was in a hotel um that we used to start pre-game we were playing Wigan on in the evening at home I've got a call from my sister telling me that she'd fail ill and then so I kind of went okay let's go into the hospital okay that's a bit dangerous so I went to sleep I didn't sleep supposedly would sleep I was kind of lying there a bit like tossing and couldn't get off I'm at the Mainstay I've got another call and as we get on the bus to go to Stamford Bridge is like two a mile I get the call that no no she's getting much worse so I'm like right I mean I'm in Frank I'm a sportsman go and do your job mode and then I just kind of broke a bit on the coach kind of well I met I felt myself go grind someone said to me
until you went great but I felt myself going like oh anyway it's got to the stadium said to the manager manager this is what's happening and he was like go so I was like in the tracksuit drive over to East London mum's in hospital so when I get there mum's now in the on on the verge of going into intensive care so she's got the stuff on and stuff and I walk in I'm in the tracksuit and my mum had the oxygen mask on and she hadn't been speaking so she's taken really ill in a day and she lifted a um a mask and said to me what are you doing here tell me my Chelsea tracksuit and I didn't know what to say because I didn't want to go you know I'm here because this is a really bad situation I mean I'm just here to see you Mum you know and then sort of put the mask back on and then she was really and then they kind of wheeled her in she held my hand which I'll never forget and then she went in and was put into intensive care so that was one a one week process of my mum in intensive care so um she started to get better um and then um a few of the family were kind of getting not excited about it but it was last progress you know mum's out she'd been on every machine possible and I'm still having to think about going into work I can't remember if I trained that period I can't remember that week that's like a blur I just remember being at home a lot you know and really you know in a bad way um and then we had Champions League games coming up against Liverpool played one away I came back mum was getting a bit better and then we got the phone call that she'd passed away she had a brain hemorrhage so just as she was getting better everyone was excited she passed away there and then so it was like the the biggest Devastation I can't explain and as I say years later I realized that this happens to so many other people and when you're a young man who hadn't really lost anyone you don't have that real feeling of what that is and I lost a person that was the closest person to me you know everything to me and I'll never forget the feeling of my stomach if I talk about it I get it instantly again um and
um I lost you know what was my best friend the person that give me all that kind of emotional stuff I'd spoken about the warmth and the the sudden feeling that someone's not going to be with you like it doesn't compare to anything when you're that close um so you know in terms of work after that probably some of it if I look back I probably go maybe I should have just come out of it like life is bigger than that but it was like my probably a tiny coping mechanism for me we played a game a game against Liverpool uh the second leg and I scored a penalty we won the game now we're getting sent to the Champions League final and I remember sitting address from afterwards and I had this almighty um like sense of of fatigue and you know body and mental fatigue uh I went home and sort of opened a beer and I couldn't even drink it I went to bed and it was like it's like everything came out of me then of like a week or two a full blast of of this pain you know it's just complete pain and then you lose your best friend and the person that you know I've still got a number in my phone and I've still got a couple of voice note things we were never a big family for videos and stuff and I wish we were um the only thing I have is that my mum's sister is Sandra Sandra redknapp Harry redknapp's wife and every time I speak to Sandra I hear my mum they look very similar they sound very similar and it's like in the first period it was painful now it's kind of nice you know because that's a memory for me but the you know it's the the feeling the grief you know I I it catches up on me now and again many years later I think I probably had a year um I was single I was like probably drinking a little bit I was playing fantastic football at a really good year football is weird um and then I met Christine and thank God Christine came along around that time because I was a little bit you know not not right in that period so it was a it was a it was a really um obviously you know anybody who loses someone so close to them but she was so big in my life and was such a balance in
my life and then you know that sudden thing is just terrible did you process that because it sounds like because you had football commitments back to back to back that there wasn't really an opportunity to like sit and yeah I I don't know I mean I've been through the experience and um that zombie thing I talk about is like I I couldn't comprehend it I felt empty and weak but I had a job to do and the job Associated wasn't trying to be a hero I just didn't know where if I think if I'd have laid around all day I would have really taken more of a hit it was almost like getting up and going to work in that period and having something to aim for was just almost like that's what I should do and then I definitely took the hit later on for that I definitely took a kind of deferred moments of grief and I'd talk about them like I say there it could be anything that would be um a couple of glasses of wine and something said at a dinner table a moment of someone else and I feel bad about this talking about their mother or something you know and they're talking glowingly about their mother and and and you kind of get hit you know um or another parent's birthday like crazy things I've got no right to be upset about if you know what I mean but it just hits me and you kind of and I that sort of get on with it like hard no get on with it son kind of feel feel which has stuck with me that was the one time I remember being absolutely broken and tested on that because I had now and I got some anger as well I remember I used to I remember having road rage a couple of times literally the few days after I pulled out of my drive and it was a Chelsea game so I wasn't playing it because of what happened but I was at home and I was driving to go and see my sister or something someone sort of drove across me and I got out of the car though and I went for them and it was a Chelsea fan he went Frank calmed down I was like yeah sorry and I had these moments of anger and a period afterwards which would just come out of me out and I went I wouldn't say that they've stuck with me from now but it definitely changed me as a person I don't know how to explain it but it definitely made me have a different take on things and be a bit more
I don't know if ruthless is the word but more you know that thing about kind of like cutting out some people that were in your life that you maybe would have got on with I just kind of took a little bit more of a direct approach in my life after that amongst some serious moments of grief within it you know I it's uh it was just it's a tough time the the only benefit it sounds really warped I said this to someone the other day the only benefit is that now I you know I I don't have to go through that again that sounds really strange it was such a tough period for me that the only thing now and I see you know Christine's family are there and other people around me have friends and family and I miss my mum so much like every day and as time goes by of course things balance out but I can't envisage ever going through that pain again about what I did because my mum was the only person would be now now Christine is obviously that person in my life and my children of course but in terms of what she meant to me at that time the only thing is like I can go that is so painful I really couldn't go through that again now that's it's a weird way of looking at it I hope that doesn't sound strange it's just a process and it was too difficult and it's almost like it was almost like a dream it was my life was never supposed to be like that in my head you know my mum was 58 and I felt like she was quite old and now I started doing the math and I'm 44. you know like and you kind of go it wasn't old you know like I was 29 a month felt a bit older at a point now he's like she should be mid 70s now and you know as I say the sudden nature of it meant you couldn't speak to her as well which was like as I've got older I've realized that my mum would have known exactly how I felt about her but time it was like I want to say something more you know and I couldn't you want to say something more just like thank you do you know what I mean like thanks to um for being the balance for being the one um who've you know in those tough moments when my dad was being harsh or something there for being the one that would when
I was crying in the bath after a game and coming and knocking on the door it's like for making me food you know things a great mother does she just was that you know my mum was there to sort of it might be sound old school now and but she was a hairdresser by trade who then became my house wife and a mother and you know for everything that was gone on in my family life and lots of things have she was always the one that was like the real stand-up when I look back now I I understand it even more that she had the ethics and everything about her and then I would love to just be able to say that you know it's like those you know an emotional song can get you going it's like can I speak to her one more time to say here's a monologue for you you know like just to to hear it but I with time I definitely have got more strength in the fact that she knew that and that's that's it and when everyone I speak to says that you are that Class Act you are the you're kind you're empathetic and all of that now I know where that's come that comes from now I don't know listen I I knew you were going to ask me this because I've seen you you know it wouldn't you know it's part of my story and I didn't want to cry I'm surprised I haven't um but because I've cried probably enough at different times um but it's um it's almost something like it is strangely therapeutic to speak about and this is very public and that's not normally how I'm in very private allies Christian are very private it's how we like to live and sometimes when those moments where I say the really grief-stricken moments over a glass of wine kind of feel better after them because that's probably why I held in when I was like hitting that penalty and and people giving me a huge plot I remember when you score that penalty when your mama just died as if it was like a hero moment it wasn't it was me just kind of going I got to try and do this and and do my job and then these moments now sometimes are quite therapeutic if I'm honest but it's uh you know especially for other people that have gone through that and much worse you know a lot of
worse things can happen in different ways but until you feel that loss you know I remember I actually remember thinking when I lost mum it was like a couple of my friends lost their parents when they were younger and I remember then thinking I've never really broached that subject with them you know a couple of my friends are like 14 and lost I met at school at that age who had already lost their parent or were in the process and I never really kind of went and they were like 14 I was 29 and I'd never even not thought about it but you know you kind of go sorry mate and then you move on you can imagine what's you know all the things and I had to approach it 29 is slightly different but those things so it you know life kicks you sometimes and that was the biggest kick I think I'll I've I've had till this point you know and hopefully um for a long time do you talk about your emotions with Christine yeah I do I do I think I'm quite good about that she will say to me sometimes I'm quite closed yeah for that stuff and then that kind of kicks me into talking about it because yeah my girlfriend's really good at that yeah annoyingly good yeah no they're really good and I don't mind she sees me going into the Zone kind of thing sometimes and she's about what's bothering you like oh well it's this you know it's probably something that's a bit irrelevant or something but is that the first answer you'll give because mine's usually nothing yeah no that's true but it's good I think because I definitely want to don't come across as this you know like I said like this get on with it thing it's certainly not me I look at myself as being you know the balance again of my mother was that one that she gave me that kind of empathy I associate all the empathy with my mother that I had because that's how she was was always with me so when I you know it's just I also have a mechanism that kind of keeps it there but it's definitely inside and you know maybe children also help with that because when you see your child and their smiles and their sort of innocent nature and how they are I think that also helps you become a little bit more emotional because you start to care about that more than pretty much
anything else which is which has also been a beautiful thing over the last few years I've realized that my first Foundation is my health something you've heard me talk about a lot nothing matters more than that first foundation so that is why I'm so excited to be involved with a company like whoop who are leading the charge when it comes to bettering your health all my friends have received free Loops from me because once you've tried whoop I think it's like lights turning on to your health that's the only way I can describe it my sleep my performance my recovery my stress it's like someone turned the lights on I'm sure you guys know but for those that don't know what whoop is it's a wearable health and fitness coach that provides you with the feedback and actionable insights into your sleep recovery training stress and overall health and I have become entirely utterly obsessed with it if you know me well enough you know how obsessed I am with the smallest details I think the Small Things compounded together produce the biggest gains in our life and that is exactly what woop does in my health and fitness every single day being able to see my one percent gains on woop has had a profound impact on my health journey I highly recommend you try it all you have to do is search join.woop.com CEO to get a free months whoop membership on me and if you do send me a DM and let me know how you get on I'd love I'd love I'd love to know a quick word on huel as you know they're a sponsor of this podcast and I'm an investor in the company one of the things I've never really explained is how I came to have a relationship with huel one day in the office many years ago a guy walked past called Michael and he was wearing a heeled t-shirt and I was really compelled by the logo I just thought from a design aesthetic point of view it was really interesting and I asked him what that word meant and why he was wearing that T-shirt and he said it's this brand called heal and they make food that is nutritionally complete and very very convenient and has the planet in mind and he the next day dropped off a little bottle of fuel on my desk and from that day onwards I completely got it because I'm someone that cares tremendously about having a nutritionally complete diet but
sometimes because of the way my life is that falls by the wayside so if there was a really convenient reliable trustworthy way for me to be nutritionally complete in an affordable away I was all ears especially if it's a way that is conscious of the planet give it a chance give it a shot let me know what you think what's the future like for you Frank what do you think I don't know I'm very it's hard to know a lot of people could say to me are you sure you know get into Panda tree it's easy put your feet up do what you know that that's and it's certainly I I get my um enjoyment I get my my gets my blood flowing is working and being a coach so that's what I want to do and I'm in no immediate rush to do it the reality is off the back of Everton and Chelsea probably time for me to take my time anyway because of what opportunity they might be out there there may be no opportunity there may be something that comes up that I want to look at and say does that work for me on all purposes because I get your point with the Chelsea ones like did you really need to take that and the the jobs I've taken have been quite challenging and a lot of I'm not saying I'm going to be giving this like here you go this is going to be great so I would Point try and choose well without sounding too picky because you know I will want to work um and in the meantime do the things that make me happy which is being around my family I like to travel it's like the one thing that I um really like to spend my money on being out it's when when I travel I want to go better than home and if I don't go better than home I'll stay at home and I've got a nice house so you know so I we we love that so I'll you know use the time to travel a bit be with the family and my children spend more time my Elder daughters are doing a levels in gcses now and be be around that and that's nice and sometimes you know I think that's good for me because I am so driven it's like I feel like I should work I should work and actually sometimes you can actually I'm 45 and I've done it right in my life maybe I don't need need to work and that and that's not a bad place to be I'm fortunate I don't I have gratitude for
that so at the moment it's the Gratitude of that enjoy it and then try and work again and what will be what would be your sort of decision making framework when people call and they say what about this job or what about this what's the how would you decide whether it's worth taking the well it's hard to say but from my experience I would want to make sure I would want to have conversations to find out what the the job is and I can't I can't sit here feel this way and talk to you about being a lion then they need to feel the way that you know a bit of coaching they're going to do this and work together and probably take another job where it doesn't feel aligned you know I I shouldn't um do that so I'd want to have a conversation and be like what what can I do for you I have to tell myself clearly that's the point but what can how will it work together and maybe get something that feels a bit like and I don't mind I will work you know in in the UK anywhere I would travel if an opportunity came up I would certainly prioritize a bit of family to make sure that it's something that works for my family um ideally so I don't know I don't know about that one everyone seems to be going there they do they do I mean I would prefer to stay in the UK for sure um and I don't mind I went and lived in Everton for a year lives in Derby for a year I miss my family a lot but you have to you know make those big decisions with fortunate in ways but we'll um I'll see I'll see what comes up it's hard to call before it comes if we sit here in 10 years time in this chapters this next sort of 10 years this next decade has been a success what does that look like what would have had to have happened for it to have been a success this next decade well 55 year old frank and Ming 55 well I'm here so that's good at 55 I think my you know obviously the family to be well and healthy you understand that more when you hit for me it was him probably faulty health and and understanding maybe you check yourself more on those things and lifestyle and then um to be hopefully have managed and had success coaching you know that's that's what I want to do I can't see what it looks like but I would love to be able
to to show myself consistently in a job and what I can do I haven't had that opportunity yet for whether that was me or whatever as the circumstances have been but to do that so I'm very determined to do I'm good like that I'm determined that I like to work like anyone who knows me will know that like regardless of what my career's been if you put it in front of me I'll tackle it head on and then you know I'm um I'm always trying to improve so hopefully in 10 years I can show you that there's got to be a part of you that wants to go back to Chelsea someday knowing if I know you are the way I know you there's got to be a part of you and suddenly that's like you know one day I'll I'll go back it's funny you know like you talk about should you have taken that job I reckon if you'd have asked me that before going back I might have said no as in not like I don't want to go back to Chelsea but I would have certainly seen myself no no like that's chapters done as a coach but now I've been back I would think about it even more and it's strange and I think you know the the fact that the ownership has changed at Chelsea and it's gone in a different direction I think it can be a really positive thing for the club I think people might not see that now but I think it really can um but obviously I have a lot to do to be part of that ever but like I I don't you have to make a clear decision when we play 13 years of Chelsea I said I'll never play anywhere else I end up planet Man City some people criticize me for that it's fine I didn't expect it but man city was an amazing experience I went to New York City it was an amazing experience when you become a manager you can't say I'm going to be Chelsea manager I'm going to be this you have to take the journey because that's those are the rules for all of us you know you can be you know a success for a moment of Everton everyone goes hold on you stand up and then you know next job what is it and I would I you know I have respect for so many big clubs that you know there are certain clubs I wouldn't manage I'm not going to declare them because that just sounds like cheap and but I think it's important I I respect my time Chelsea Supply and what the club means to me but I don't see it as the
B100 but as I say having been back there it did re-light a fire I left Chelsea in covert as a manager because I didn't have any fans for my my last period so I kind of walked out like a little bit through the back door um in a sense um and this time it felt different and that wasn't a great period but it is still a huge club for me so maybe I'm really excited to watch what happens next thank you um you did a great job at Derby obviously then you got um Chelsea into the the champions league if I think finished fourth That season um under a transfer ban and then you kept Everton up on the last day of the Season which again most people had kind of counted Everton out so obviously there was that interim period I look it's funny because I'm gonna be honest so I when when we were meant to have this podcast last time then you called me um and said listen I can't come Can't Tell You Why um and I kind of put two and two together and figured it was the job I looked at that and thought look I don't know Chelsea 11th or 12th at the moment like what's what's the worst that can happen really what I didn't know is the the back context so if I was in your shoes uh in hindsight and we don't have hindsight in in the moment I would have probably I would have not taken the job if I was in that situation but in foresight I definitely would have hmm 100 yeah all the reasons you said if Manchester United called me now I take the job yeah and I have no experience yeah so but um but I think what we're gonna I'm really excited to see what we see next from you and your sort of managerial career because I mean what you the experience you've had warts and all is worth a ton yeah you know at all different levels all different phases transitional relegation battles all of that is worth more than a lot of successes are worth and you've had that in a short window of time so really really excited about your next chapter whenever it comes thank you um is there anything at all you would say to Chelsea fans that are watching this now that are um that would love to you know Chelsea fans will be listening to this because they
want to get a your opinion on what's just happened but they probably want to get your opinion on like what you think the future looks like I guess and also I think a lot of them do want to like check in on you because since you've left we've not really heard from you in this context yeah and I've enjoyed that I've enjoyed not speaking it's been nice um no I think for Chelsea fans I would say that um uh in terms of what do I think is next I I listen to possession I spoke yesterday was his first press conference and he he uh he spoke very well and he spoke about bringing a a Unity at the training ground and a family feel and then winning which is Chelsea DNA so I think they've got a really good manager in charge and I think the players will definitely develop with their you know as they as they develop naturally they're good players young players there has to be some patience in putting that together because I think that's that has to be clear and the owners have a big intention so I think as things settle it may not be straight away but I think that there's a really positive future for the club and I was in it and it was tough but you know I know how quickly things can change if you get the strategy right in terms of me I'm absolutely fine and I'd certainly appreciate the support I had from as I say majority a lot of fans that would you know contact me or be at Stanford Bridge and for anybody that was on the other side of that was like why is Frank back in the job I I think they maybe I've explained some of my part in it today and some of the challenges I'll always take responsibility I wouldn't walk back into that challenge without sort of saying this might not go right and what's my responsibility so but Chelsea is always a huge club and as I say I never went back to Chelsea until three days before I went and took the interim job manager and I went to the Liverpool game and end up having a conversation and it was a difficult period for me for some reason I left in covert as I say and I moved on to Everton and it reignited that kind of feeling being back at Stamford Bridge I have to say not that I lost it it just reignited it and you know so to Chelsea fans I
know I'm fine I'm fine I appreciate their support even my playing career it's nice when you finish playing because your playing career is there and I can look back on it with a lot of pleasure for a lot of the good moments when you're in it it's like what's next and you're sort of like always challenging yourself when you finish you kind of go yeah you know that was good that was all right it was a lot of good stuff so there were good times and I was very thankful to be part of a great club and we'll see you gave Mason Mount his start yes I think he's a great signing for your yeah that's what I was going to say thank you for that he's fantastic why is he living why is he leaving Chelsea he's born and born and bred isn't he yeah I think it's a complicated one and in the end I think is uh he's got a year left on his contract what I'll say about Mason is all the things I spoke about there you talk about like modern players and how the game's changed he's a throwback to the attitude and the commitment and the quality the you know that was the beauty of working with Mason was that he gave you so much in terms of his um effort every day anything you'd ask him to do was like yeah and he kind of got it and I think any great player has to have that kind of intelligence and that desire about them you know like what do you need me to do a bit I've got it and I'll do it I'll repeat it and also quality so in terms of what he'll bring to Manchester United it won't just be what Mason brings it will bring loads of talent that he's just gonna Gap and levels yeah I I think so and and don't win me wrong the bar raise is already there with Bruno Fernandez but he will actually yeah casimiro but he will absolutely fit in with it if you're trying to build which you're saying a group mentality of a team and you know players are just going to give everything and their talent which type team he fits it so I've seen some like sort of alternative reactions to that it's like oh yeah Mason amounts of goodbye why would you pay that for him nice amount is going to be a fantastic player there my opinion it's really nice to know because actually I was a bit on the fence in regards of don't really know the
character of the man but I have heard from inside Old Trafford that Eric tanhard Eric tenhargis really Ultra focused on exactly what you've said above everything else he's focused on that like core values so casimiro um Bruno etc etc and so it's nice to know that Mason is uh yeah he is a bar razor yep why is he leaving do you know um seeking a different challenge or is it no I don't think so I think probably Mason would have envisaged two years ago they'd stay at Chelsea for a lot of his career I just think circumstances his contract situation um I know he's got a big love for Chelsea um but also in the modern day you know I think more than more than even in my day players do move and I don't think you know if the challenge of moving now it's come to that for Mason personally is a is a good challenge for him I would like to finish that Chelsea because I think he's he would have been Central to it but it didn't happen we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest and I have to say this is the longest question I've ever been left for anyone else it's quite abstract right as well so we're both gonna have to kind of figure this one out but the question is you're gonna be surprised by this when broken down to its roots or origin the word enthusiasm begins with n Theos which means with God for people who have not identified something which they are truly passionate about pursuing can you suggest a way to cultivate that enthusiasm um so I think the real question here is just in this line here which is when people for people who haven't identified something which they are truly passionate about yeah pursuing how do they go about that wow um thanks to that one yeah I don't know um this is a good point actually because my daughters now my oldest daughter is going leave getting her a level results this summer it's talking about uni but she doesn't really know what she wants to do and I actually felt uh not bad I went to
school obviously but my Pathways you know looking back was like fortunately was that I didn't have to think about myself and I so I haven't got any big answers for and also like from a modern woman you know where is the pathway what does she want to I ask that question and she's not sure which is completely understandable so for me I think for her if if we're flipping it there's maybe whether it's a passion or not but my thing and it probably goes back to my roots is to the work ethic thing is what I say to it is to get out there and get in the workplace and meet people because I think in the modern world with my daughters are so engrossed in social media they have a lot of answers about life you know a lot of answers and I'm like okay I don't agree with that one but I'll let that one go I don't agree with that and then I'll start to feel like a dinosaur but I do think that they kind of get caught up in that and all the answers are there and like okay we're gonna do then and they go I don't know and you kind of go okay well fine you've got all this information it's the modern world but what are you going to do go out and get a weekend job if you're going to go to UNI go out and experience what the real world is like rather than this alternative world that you're slightly looking at and then I think someone might ignite it so that that was my and again that's probably as deep as I could go because I don't care where it is you could be in the coffee shops you could be in this shop or that shop or whatever but um this is my adult story obviously so it was more about getting out and meeting people and I guess probably in in to bring that question back to me myself going out of my comfort zone and leaving Chelsea to go to Manchester City and then live in New York for two years ignited a million things in May and none of them were like big Hobbies or something like that it was just like wow there's a different world a different culture people who approach things with positivity and energy that I've never seen in England and it changed my Approach so maybe my answer would be come out of your comfort zone and do something which
is different I was fortunate today I worked there but I was living in probably what for me is possibly the best city in the world and it changed me as a person so maybe you know to to get the passion try something take yourself out the comfort zone and it might just appear for you makes perfect sense and I think yeah exactly what I heard there is that often we when we're two within familiarity we're not going to get the inspiration of what might be our passion if we're searching for it but going to a New York or um just getting out into the world and having experiences can lead us there yeah Frank thank you so much for your time today and thank you for doing this because I I want to say like you um you are a man of your word now because we're going to do this last time and you could have easily not done it but you messaged me and said I want to get that back on because I said I would um and again that's just another example of you just being a Class Act the whole process of you counting last time because you've got the Chelsea job and then coming back you've just been an absolute Class Act um you're a man where no one can question your your integrity and your principles and then on top of that I I see a man who is um incredibly Keen to work and do well in whatever he applies himself to and because of that you've LED this fantastic career both as a professional football player and as a manager we're which is I think you're just halfway through and there's this whole new season as you get up to you know 45 years time you're going to be 90. and I'm so excited to watch that story unfold because of all the wisdom you've garnered in the last 45 so thank you for being an inspiration to me for giving me so many great memories in football as an England player less so as a Chelsea player because you guys were really good through that that that's that period so um but it's a real honor to get to know you and um yeah thank you for all your wisdom thank you very much thank you if you've been listening to this podcast over the last few months you'll know that we're sponsored and supported by Airbnb but it amazes me how many people don't realize they could actually be
sitting on their very own Airbnb for me as someone who works away a lot it just makes sense to Airbnb my place at home whilst I'm away if your job requires you to be away from home for extended periods of time why leave your home empty you can so easily turn your home into an Airbnb and let it generate income for you whilst you're on the road whether you could use a little extra money to cover some bills or for something a little bit more fun your home might just be worth more than you think and you can find out how much it's worth at airbnb.com host that's airbnb.com UK slash host [Music] foreign [Music]