Video URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R87QLweXl1A
from everything I know now I've reluctantly come to the conclusion that the covid vaccine introduction has had a catastrophic net negative effect on society and this is really most disturbing and I've not been public about this before so I'm going to tell you this for the first time Dr MH hatra is one of the UK's leading celebrity heart doctors whose influential research has sparked important conversations about nutrition and exercise and the healthare system the times journalist called me and said we've got reports now of a 25% increase in heart attacks in hospitals in Scotland which are unexplained what do you think about the vaccine I was a bit surprised said what do you mean he said and to have that deep knowledge and understanding gives me very deep pain and medical knowledge is under commercial control this is the root of the problem the system is psychopathic when it comes to making money and there is so much harm that comes from drug prescriptions one credible estimate suggests the third most common cause of death globally after heart disease and cancer is prescribed medications this is a dirty secret within medicine we should shift our approach to health from a predominantly drug- based model within Healthcare to one which is more based upon lifestyle so what is that the first thing that needs to be done is by 2030 it's estimated that about 23.3 million people will die yearly because of heart disease globally and there are 200 million people taking statins around the world but the increase in life expectancy with statins over a 5year period 4.2 days how do I prevent myself ending up on either statins or having a heart attack this is really important information so quick one before we get back to this episode just give me 30 seconds of your time two things I wanted to say the first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week means the well to all of us and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place but secondly it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started and if you enjoy what we do here please join the 24% of people who watch this channel regularly and have hit that subscribe
button means more than I can say and if you hit that subscribe button here's a promise I'm going to make to you I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future we're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about the show thank you thank you so much back to the episode Dr Asim you're working on a documentary called first do no far which will be out shortly why did you choose the name for your documentary first do you know Farm well first and foremost the credit to that name actually goes to my co-producer Donal O'Neal who's made a number of Health documentaries um and he's a former International athlete uh you know and he used to work in marketing and PR so he's very good with with slogans and sound bites um but it it it totally resonated with with my work and what I've been doing probably for well over a decade which is to try and shift um our approach to health from a predominantly pharmacological based drug- based model within Healthcare to one which is more based upon lifestyle and that's because that's where the best evidence is in terms of improving our health but also in terms of managing the Health Care System where there is so much waste where drugs are overprescribed and obviously first Doo Farm means in the consultation room the ideal scenario should be with every patient that if there is a uh non-drug based way non-pharmacological way of managing their illness chronic disease which is the big problem in society right now on healthc Care Systems uh that should be the primary primary approach um as well as highlighting through the title that there is so much harm that comes from drug prescriptions just I mean this is something that even brings gasps from audiences when I give talks and lectures all around the world and when even I say I even think bloody hell how have we got to this situation that you know one credible estimate suggests the third most common cause of death globally after heart disease and cancer is prescribed medications what your doctor prescribes for you so-called appropriately mainly because the information which doctors use to make
decisions for patients when it's prescribing drugs invariably is based upon a gross exaggeration on the safety and the benefits of those drugs and the phrase first Do no harm which is the original phrase that You' spanned for the title where does that phrase originate from well actually it's one of the basic principles of medical ethics you know as doctors that's the something that's almost we're indoctrinated or ingrained with whenever we you know practice medicine treat patients um that should be the that's at the Forefront of our minds it should be at the Forefront of our minds what what professionally what is your professional title um I'm a consultant cardiologist what does that mean if I so I uh I special so I qualified as a doctor um medical doctor in 2001 um and then after um becoming a um I I decided after two or three years of doing my sort of initial postgraduate basic training in medicine to subspecialize in cardiology which is basically everything to do with the heart and then within that subsp specialization of Cardiology or specialization of Cardiology I trained in Interventional Cardiology um in layman's term Steve that means ke heart surgery so that's what I trained to do um and I did that um uh you know up until probably 2014 2015 and then I shifted more towards a more holistic approach to managing heart disease especially looking at the science and practicing the evidence base behind how lifestyle changes can manage heart disease and even potentially reverse it you must have seen a lot of heart in your time yes I I I think in terms of I was thinking about this cuz you know up until 2019 I was you know an NHS doctor we'll come back to later why what happened in 2019 but and that's my passion um but within the NHS which I think trains doctors brilliantly um it's a very high intense workload um and uh just to give you perspective on that um you know we have the highest uh capita population per doctors in Europe so least number of doctors per uh population in the country um and the most number of doctors on night shift so it's quite intense and because of that I was thinking back in terms of the patients I would see on the wards and
the throughput and the people that I would see you know in the what we call cardiac catheter lab where we did the diagnostic anagrams to visualize the heart arteries and we put Sten in ETC over my career I've probably managed tens of thousands of patients why did you choose to specialize in the heart versus other parts of the sort of medical um ecosystem that you could have pursued what was there something yeah I don't know if there's one answer to that I think one trigger very early on in my life is um you know I grew up in a medical family both my parents are GPS and I had an older brother who had Down syndrome and uh which also meant he had a small hole in his heart as well and when I was 11 and he was 13 shortly after his birthday um he got a tummy bug uh standard tummy bug we didn't think anything of it within six days Steve um he became breathless and rapidly deteriorated got admitted to the hospital and had a cardiac arrest and died and later on it emerged his you know the postmortem showed his heart was massively enlarged and essentially had something called viral myocarditis it can happen actually to anybody you get a a cold and in one in 10,000 people up to one in 100,000 people the body then has what we call an autoimmune reaction instead of dealing with a cold on its own it then attacks the heart and and in a third of those patients you can basically who get that they will deteriorate and they will die and so I think for me that had such a profound impact on my life um and with both parents being doctors of course there was a bit of there was no pressure from my parents they wanted me to you know my dad wanted to be a cricketer but um I think that was implanted in my mind that if I was to go into medicine I want to get involved in managing and helping people you know or prevent heart disease so I think that's where it started from it's interesting because when we think about our health a lot of people think about the amount of weight they have on them they think you know abdominal fat they think about how strong they are their muscles and things like that then a lot of the other things are very superficial the sort of measures of our health because we've never really seen our heart and it's similar to our brain because we've
never seen our heart or our brain we I think we typically devalue the role that they play in our over overall health but when I was reading some stats around heart disease and how how many people die from heart disease I was shocked so if we start there then can you give me a sort of macro picture on why it's important to keep our hearts healthy and how um how many people are are dying because of unhealthy Hearts yeah so globally um it's estimated it's on the increase by uh the certainly by 20 30 it's estimated that about 23.3 million people will die um yearly because of heart disease globally right and that's a huge number and and just to put it in perspective it's the one of the leading causes of premature death in European men it is the leading cause of premature death and uh and that's why I think it's so important not just about people's lives being cut short early but also there is an Associated morbidity which means the quality of life deterioration that happens with people who are diagnosed with heart disease that may not be able to exercise very much because they get pain in their chest because of a blockage or they may develop what we call heart failure where the pump function of the heart is affected because of blockages or because of a previous heart attack they survived and therefore they can't actually do the activi they want to enjoy and that's you know way bigger in fact that's well sorry just as important as as of course the the premature death rate so no it's a massive issue and it's interesting Steve that you you mentioned um the image side where people think about excess body fat and big muscles and that kind of thing and that also plays into a certain culture and mindset that I think detracts from us actually addressing the root cause of many problems with society today in our health um which is not related to image actually it's about the the basics of of uh reducing stress about our social interactions Etc um to some degree obviously what we eat is linked to to how we look but um yeah I mean absolutely I think it's not something people really think about enough um often until it's too late how does it impact women because we mentioned it being the single biggest killer of men I think in Europe you said
what about women it's um not as bad for women and part of the reason for that Steve is and traditionally women on average will live live up to 10 years longer than men right and the reason for that is that women don't tend to develop heart disease um at the same age as men but after the menopause the rates of heart disease actually start to catch up so even though women will live longer it's still a big issue with women as well um absolutely your mother passed in November 2018 after bout of sepsis the was interesting I read this quote You' said I think it was on um on I news you said at G you're a GP that had dedicated 25 years of your life to the NHS and ultimately you failed by it how are you failed by it in my mom's circumstance what happened was you know the system was under so much strain I mean she had suffered with a a debilitating rheumatoid and ostearthritis for many years initially I think a lot of her health issues were rooted in her weight I mean she was addicted to all to processed food she consumed a lot of sugar I grew up in a household where there were just cakes and biscuits everywhere and you know she was a very loving mom um but I was addicted to Sugar probably because of that as well for some time but it affected her health and I and and and I loved my mom very very dearly and it was heartbreaking to watch her suffer slowly over a number of years but the way she was failed by the NHS specifically is that um I had already been campaigning for many many years in terms of seeing how the system of the NHS was being put under more pressure a lot of it by diet related disease and there were so many opportunities for us to that were being missed to actually improve the system so that doctors could provide quality care to every patient to a good degree when my Mom was admitted to a hospital and she was sick with infection in her spine she'd become so frail from her arthritis that her immune system probably wasn't functioning properly as well because the hospital was under so much strain because we had not sorted out the root causes of the pressure on the system they missed a heart attack for 9 days and it's extraordinary Steve I remember I was a they knew I was a cardiologist
and it was our local hospital my dad was a local GP and he was a considered a medical leader I mean he was loved and liked and respected massively so even with all of that um um they did everything they could to help her but um she she went she became breathless one day they treated her for you know um uh you know for infection with lots of fluid Etc and um They carried out a heart scan it was decided let's do a heart scan on her but nobody actually looked at the result of the heart scan and shared it with the team because they were so busy they just missed it and I get sent the results 9 days later being asked what do you think and I immediately noticed it was an echo it was a heart scan looking at the pump muscle of the heart that part of the heart muscle wasn't working well I said she's had you've missed a it a a relatively minor heart attack but enough to cause it to go into what we call heart failure and within 24 hours fluid in the lung intensive care went into a coma and that was it so that was a was a failing of the NHS but not because of the principles of the NHS but because the NHS um over the years Steve has lost its um basic ability to care for patients because the principles of the NHS have not been upheld for anyone that isn't aware the NHS means National Health Service which is the Health Service and system um within the UK the the I mean just a few years later your father passes in July 21 from a sudden unexplained heart attack at 73 years old um I mean so there's three members of your family that have ultimately um died as a result of or closely linked to heart attacks your immediate family yeah yeah um yeah to some degree yes all related to the heart all related to the heart was your father's heart attack avoidable in your view if you think about the lifestyle choices and things like that you you talked about your mother there was that avoidable any in any sense of the word yeah interesting um so there are two components to my dad's um death um strictly the the postmortem findings didn't reveal a heart attack per se but for all intents and purposes it can be seen that way so
um the first thing that happened was um my dad by the way was a very fit man for his age 73 years old um played badminton every week um had a bit of high blood pressure but had got that better controlled after quitting sugar partly because of all my campaigning uh and he listened to me and it was very to eating healthy food in fact you know I consider myself to be extremely fit I'm obsessed with exercise um you know I played a lot of competitive sport when I was younger partly because of him and uh it was very unexpected when he called me up it's coming up to his anniversary July 26 2021 and and he said as see I've got some chest discomfort and uh I asked him you know to describe it in medicine 80% of your diagnosis if you're a good doctor comes from the conversation so the way he described his chest discomfort was a central heaviness going to his shoulders so immediately think this is heart and I said you need to call an ambulance he was a bit reluctant to call an ambulance for whatever reason and then I said okay I was in London he was in Manchester that's where I grew up and I decided to go and have a shower get ready and get on the train and he was ringing up his uh neighbors who were both doctors and by the time I came out of the shower I called him back and there was no answer and I remember my heart just thinking I really hope he's not had a cardiac aress just I thought no this is this can't be can't be what's going on kept ringing ringing and eventually um the neighbor who was a doctor who knew me she answered the phone and should ass your dad's had a cardiac arrest we're doing CPR in him I know from National Data and I've even written about this in the bmj the average response time Steve for for for many many years one of the things uh that we do have done very well in the NHS some of the best in the world is our treatment of heart attacks and the speed of treatment and even cardiac arrests I knew the average response time with 8 minutes I said the ambulance will be here in 8 minutes because of the timing almost certainly he will have what we call a shockable rhythm as in um the heart is probably in in um having a electrical disturbance and we'll be able to shock him out of it more than 50% chance he will survive this is I'm thinking already like
this 10 minutes passed by ambulance hasn't shown 20 minutes nothing 30 minutes um they get there and I FaceTime them they attach the cardiac monitor it's a flat line he's gone nothing to be done and of course that was you know at that stage I was obviously devastated and I I wrote in the ey newspaper about how I I screamed louder than never screamed in my life but to come back to that situation first and foremost so the first thing is if the ambulance had turned up on time almost certainly it's likely he would have survived that's the first thing but the second thing in my mind is why is he had a cardiac AR in the first place he was a really healthy guy in in my family as in on his side there was no family history of heart disease he had high blood pressure okay but that was about it right and he was otherwise pretty good and when the postmortem came back there were three major Ares of the heart two of them had severe blockages and I thought this is odd because I knew his lifestyle this is my area of interest and expertise heart disease specifically how it progresses how you can reverse it all that stuff what medications can do what they can't do as well and I thought to myself hold on I knew his scan from f earlier something has happened in the last 2 or 3 years that has caused a rapid acceleration in the disease of the heart right in terms of the blockages getting very rapidly you know um uh progressing and I thought this doesn't this this doesn't make sense and I thought to myself was he just severely stressed like stress can do it very severe stress can do it he' lost obviously my mom a couple of years earlier but he was a very resilient guy he was a vice president of the British Medical Association who was still involved in medical politics during Co he was one of the faces on the BBC during the co pandemic talking about you know how we should manage this Etc so he was still very mentally active he wasn't a recluse sitting in the corner you know he was still social so doesn't really fit and then a publication appeared in the Journal circulation which is considered a the premier Cardiology journal and a cardiologist called Steven gundry who may have heard of he's done a lot of work in lifestyle and lectin and stuff so he he had and he actually had a
very senior role in the American Heart Association very eminent published cardiologist he published um an abstract where he had looked at several hundred of his patients who had taken the covid vaccines specifically mRNA vaccines so either fiser or Mna two doses and what had happened was within eight weeks of taking those Jabs their Baseline risk went from 11% chance of a heart attack in 5 years to 25% chance just within 8 weeks that is a huge jump like just to give you perspective Steve if I today decided that I was going to just consume junk food all my meals right I was going to smoke 20 cigarettes a day I was going to stop exercising I wouldn't get anywhere close to increasing my risk within 8 weeks and the mechanism was for inflammation and I thought ah I know heart disease is a chronic inflammatory condition think it's a lifestyle so if this is even partially true it means that the covid vaccines may be causing inflammation around the heart and that means that many people are going to have an acceleration in heart disease and that may explain what happened to my dad but that was only one bit of data of course a good scientist knows okay it gets you thinking it's a hypothesis potentially obviously there some data but it's not enough to be make it more than likely at this stage and within two weeks call it Providence or whatever else um I got a phone call from uh somebody who I know I consider him uh you know one of the smartest cardiologists very high integrity from a very prestigious institution and he called me up and he said Asim I've got something to tell you I'm very upset he said a group of researchers that I'm linked to in this institution um had accidentally found and this has nothing to do with blood test or cardiac risk through a very high-tech Imaging of the heart modality they were using that there was inflammation of the archeries which would cause obviously heart potentially heart attacks that was there in the vaccinated but not there in the unvaccinated the lead researcher sat the team down and he said guys I just want to make this clear we are not going to explore these findings any further because it may affect our funding from the drug
industry now obviously people hearing this are going to think wow that is sounds corrupt um this is something something that has been a big problem within medicine for a very very long time which isn't getting an airing but it didn't surprise me of that but it was still quite shocking but for me at that stage Steve it was okay at the very least I should ask the question and I was nervous about it I had been someone took the jab myself I went to Good Morning Britain and very early on when they were just offering it to high-risk people to say that um I think that this is probably safe and people shouldn't be worried and this was again specifically to address people from black and ethnic minority communities because there was a lower uptake amongst those communities partly also because they often amongst some of the most marginal marginalized members of society and they have less trust in Authority in government so you can see how the psychology plays in there and I convinced a friend of mine who's a film director ginda Chada who directed um bendit Like Beckham you might know some of her movies and we went on together and Good Morning Britain to say listen I think this and you know this is fine so I had all of that and so I was in many ways I was indoctrinated and and is you know and people don't like to admit they're wrong or think they've got it wrong so for me to start turning or changing my mind or asking the question um is not necessarily an easy thing to do but I've done that throughout my career so you know if anyone has the um character I know myself to be able to say listen okay there's new evidence here or whatever else I felt I could do that but I was still nervous and I thought you know this is not something that I think the BBC are going to pick up on I had a good rapport um with GB news at that Point um and I still do and one of the presenters Alexander Phillips was a friend of mine and I called her up and said listen um you know we were doing she wanted me on anyway I was doing regular Health slots every few weeks I said what I see what do you want to talk about next week and I said I think let's talk about this said okay go on GB news I say you know the vaccine Committee of the country should look into this this is what I know this is what I found
whistleblower all this stuff I said my dad died as well and this may be the reason for his death and I just asked that question and of course I didn't expect it to go viral you know it got millions of views and it was getting reach all over America and that kind of thing strangely by this point Steve I don't know if you remember but Omicron wave had started and um we were getting reports from South Africa which was really reassuring that from the doctor that discovered it that this doesn't seem to be more harmful than the flu now great okay it's mutated it's a different strain this is really great news and then sag Javid around the same time the secretary for health had come out in Parliament and said we are now going to pass through legislation that the covid vaccine needs to be mandated for healthcare workers despite the fact that the British Medical Association medical colleges we've never in our country one thing that's really good especially within the medical establishment we don't believe in mandating any drug they do this in America they've never done this here and although they weren't very vocal about it they kind of were a bit relatively quiet they weren't supporting it openly saying that we should mandate this is is coming from this political decision I this is very odd at a stage now where we're thinking there's serious harm we know it's not and by that stage 2021 November most people were understanding now it wasn't stopping infection right for most people right so I said this doesn't make any sense so I then started campaigning on this issue and I started campaigning on this issue and was able to get into the mainstream news on this particular issue because around that time um the I newspaper had published an investigation into the delay that led to my dad's death of the ambulance service right and I had also got privy to knowledge in that you know in that story that the deputy chief nurse of NHS singland had called me up and said there had been basically a cover up by the government and the Department of Health to stop people knowing for months there were ambulance delays doctors and members of public I this is unacceptable so I exposed this it became a massive story BBC News and when the BBC presented was saying Dr mahota what's
going on wrong with the NHS why is it failing why is this happening I said multifactorial but I said one of the most important reasons is you failed we failed for years to address the root cause of what's driving stress on the system taking on the excesses of big food and big farmer but I said right now we've got um 80 to you know 100,000 NHS staff who were refusing to have the covid vaccine this would be a crisis they're going to lose their jobs this is this bandaid needs to be overturned it's not scientific it's not ethical so I I got that into the mainstream and ultimately we end up overturning right the the the um the Mandate um but there was a backlash Steve behind the scenes and I've not been public about this before so I'm going to tell you this for the first time because I think it's time I I tell this story shortly after me going on GB news as a doctor who' had the vaccine had been on Good Morning Britain to say it was likely safe and effective to then talking about we should maybe look into this and maybe pause the situation because of um these heart issues that need to be investigated I received an email from the Royal College of Physicians this is the oldest Medical Institution in the world saying Dr motra um we have received a number of anonymous complaints from other fellows that you uh in reference to my GB news interview that you are spreading antix misinformation and you've got four weeks to respond to this and they were saying all the different sanctions that could happen because of me doing this right Steve at that point I thought if we are going to get a pause on this vaccine and really investigate it it's because of such an indoctrination because so many people billions of people around the world have taken this and therefore the the the battle to expose it is going to be harder than anything I've ever done the only way in my only chance is to get it published in a peer-review journal and then to get it into the news I spent nine months at that stage literally eating breathing sleeping speaking to two fighs of whistleblowers speaking to eminent scientists in expertise I didn't have around immunology and vaccine development of course I had the understanding of Cardiology you know
better than anybody in in this particular field in this particular area and when I did that research and looked at it I first of all concluded that there absolutely needs to be a suspension of the vaccine because um what happened by the summer of 20122 and this is actually the the most crucial and important piece of data on its own which should have been enough to suspend it and actually suggest that it probably shouldn't have been rolled out in the first place is that those trials that were done by fiser madna which led to the all the media reports 95 100% effective um you know the approval by the regulator the roll out the coercion the mandates they were reanalyzed by some very eminent scientists including the associated to the bmj the one of the world's top epidemiologists and they published in the journal vaccine which is the Premier journal for vaccines and they were able to get new data that was made available on health Canada's website in the FDA in America's website and what they did in their reanalysis of the original high quality clinical trials is they found Steve you were more likely to suffer serious harm from taking the vaccine at a rate of 1 in 800 that meant hospitalization disability or a life-changing event then you were to be hospitalized with covid and this is during the early phase right this this is during the the most most lethal strain for all age groups yes well absolutely well they put all age groups together so on average in all age groups that's a very good question um but what's missing is that actually okay is there a benefit that's greater than harm in certain age groups but we can indirectly answer that in a second so that was original trial so on average it was more harmful than beneficial okay but even before talking about all age groups Steve a 1 in 800 harm rate for vaccine is completely unacceptable in the sense that we have pulled other vaccines in the past for much less harm the swine flu vaccine was suspended globally because it was found to cause G and Barry syndrome a debilitating neurological condition in one in a 100,000 people Rota virus vaccine was pulled in 1999 because it was found to cause a form of battle obstruction in children at 1 in 10,000 so you've
already got a harm rate of 1800 irrespective of right so that first and foremost should be red flag to say hold on this is this is too much when they say harm rate how do they what's the the range of definitions of harm well in this one they categorize serious harm as it caused you to be hospitalized yeah it caused a disability okay or something that was life-changing now of course that can incorporate lots of different things but of those and I spoke to the lead researcher I know work with him on other things um 40% of those serious harms were actually related to clotting disorders like lung clots heart attacks Etc make I'm super clear here cuz I don't understand um the data you're citing so you're saying that they found one in 800 people would have serious harm or harm uh serious harm serious harm serious 1800 people had in the trials 1 in 800 yeah 1 in 800 serious harm right now just to give you perspective so you can balance it out just because this is important this a question you've asked is really important um we didn't have any good real world data at that point on can we separate vaccinated from unvaccinated to look at what the hospitalization rate would be for covid for example in people who took the vaccine versus the people that didn't according to age group that data in the whole world the only country to get make that data available was the UK and they did that in the beginning of uh 2023 so January last year and what did that show after two doses of the fiser vaccine Steve if you were over 70 so this is the highest risk group you had to vaccinate 2,500 people to prevent one person being hospitalized with covid and this was with the different strain the Omnicom strain because the original strain was yeah it was they didn't yeah it was you're right it was with the Omicron strain so that was still but it gave us a ballpark figure that even that so it's it's like so say a patient comes to me and says doc what are the benefits of this drug is a prevention whatever else and I say to them well if you take this there's a one in 2,500 chance it will help you you prevent you being hospitalized I'll be honest with you Steve I mean in medicine in all the drugs I've used and all the data I know about different medications
and heart disease Etc that figure I mean it's a very serious issue but that figure is a joke I mean there's nothing of that of such poor and then when you get under the a when you get to people under the age of say uh 50 you're talking about having to vaccinate maybe several hundred, to prevent one is that relevant for that the first strain of CO as well because or do we not have the data on that we don't have that data on that we do in my paper which I published actually we did have some data on Delta and if I remember correctly the data on the over 7s the there's also problems with this a little bit because it's not corrected for other factors such as social economics Etc risk factors of you might make people more vulnerable so if I remember correctly from that paper if you're over 70 that was about one and two5 Delta was the worst strain actually so about 1 and 250 okay I'm on the British Heart Foundation website I'm sure you've read this um just to read out what they say on there it says that up to one in 10,000 people with the fisa vaccine might experience are at risk of M myocarditis or pericarditis if I pronounce that correctly yeah up to one in 10,000 people for the Mna vaccine and uh it's not possible to estimate other vaccines because they're not frequently used in the UK all three of these covid-19 vaccines are mRNA vaccines designed to Target the omnicon Omnicom strain and at the the top of this it says the risk of myocarditis or pericarditis after covid-19 vaccine is very low how do you respond to that do you think you agree with that no I don't agree with it at all I think there are a number of layers to respond to this I think the first thing to say Steve is the British heart foundation with a great respect to them and they do a lot of good work overall is still part of the so-called establishment which has been blinded for years to actually even address so many issues on health when it doesn't uh suit the interests of big farmer and and and I can say that categorically because I know one of the the the chief advisor uh uh to heart disease um for the British heart foundation with the greatest respect to him is a guy called Professor Rory Collins um university of Oxford and they have said similar things when it comes to statin drugs which we'll talk
about later um but that person the people who advise them are people who are heavily funded and linked to Farmer taking their institution taking hundreds of Millions for example so there's a huge bias there to start with that's the first thing but it for me what the British Heart Foundation are not doing is actually countering and i' would love them to counter that because I'm very open for the debate here is that you've got a reanalysis of and they know this the best way of determining serious harm from any drug is actually looking one of the best ways is the highest quality level of evidence which is the randomized control Char which is where led to the approval when you've got an independent reanalysis and a peer review Journal saying more harm than good from the beginning that in itself and and then we look at real world data Steve there's so many other bits of data that they are ignoring basically to answer your question they're ignoring lots of other data which is very clear whether it's autopsy data whether it's other studies that came out of Israel that showed for example this was published in a journal called nature scientific reports and again they ignore this they don't talk about it so it's it's like hold on guys this is you're ignoring you're not even mentioning this data they showed and this is really most disturbing in 2021 there was a 25% increase in heart attacks and or cardiac arrests in people aged between 16 and 39 which was associated with the covid vaccine but not associated with covid how do they how do they tease out I was thinking about um you know the increase in heart related conditions around the pandemic and following the pandemic and in in much of your work and I think in this book I can't actually pronounce the word p diet po diet the PO diet you talk about how these other sort of Lifestyle factors like Community friendships relationships stress mental health being sedentary sedentary all of these things can contribute to heart problems so when I think about the pandemic I go people weren't seeing their friends we were stressed more than ever people were losing their jobs they were fured um they had mental health you know we saw the mental health uh stats
explode yeah um all the factors there that are linked to heart disease so how do we know that it it wasn't the those factors of the pandemic that caused an increase in heart related issues and how do how can we tease that out from the the vaccine really good question um because remember I also said that early on before I realized the vaccine might be playing a role I actually thought that was that was the most likely explanation of the increased heart attacks lockdown stress poor diet Etc you'd expect to see an increase you would you would and I think it has played a role Steve for sure it has played a role but then when you look at the quality of data to say how much of a role that's played the it it's on a different level when you look at the vaccine when you look at the plausible mechanism you look at the types of people that are dying young people and stuff like that it doesn't fit um I'll be honest my personal view it is a primary driver without any shadow of doubt in my mind and a personal view of the excess deaths as a scientist I'll say it's a likely significant contributive factor but probably the most likely because another aspect to all of this is what we call pharmaco vigilance reports so these are reports that are done by members of the public when they they have an adverse reaction to any drug and it's not easy to fill in you fill in these what we call Yellow Card scheme you can get it online and you send it off to your doctor or to you know the regulator those reports and I've throughout my career I've never seen the extent like for example I'll give you an example um after 9.7 million doses of the astrogenic vaccine which was ultimately pulled right astrogenic of course was also one of the covid vaccines there were 800,000 in this country 800,000 yellow card reports now some of them um are not going to be serious serious but people don't fill in a yellow card report if you've had a bit of a fever after having a vaccine they felt quite ill ill enough so that's already and then within that it's estimated maybe one in five of those from other data would suggest serious harm so other data from reporting and with the so with about I think 30 million doses if it was probably about 30 million doses of fisa
we had about 500,000 yellow card reports in this country right which just still a lot you know that's one in 60 yellow Cod reports now they're all not going to be super serious hospitalization death or whatever else um but when you put all of the data together Steve that it paints a picture that makes it look as clear as a day that anybody doubting you know it should be the evidence should be this is the primary cause of the excess deaths until proven otherwise that's the level of evidence Steve but it's just being ignored it's being ignored and I can talk about why it's being ignored one of the things I've been sort of gaps in my head that I've been Keen to fill is do you believe that if we hadn't have introduced the vaccine more or less people would have survived covid because I've got close friends of mine that got covid and I watched them go from very healthy looking people to basically skeletons good actually good friend one of the serers of my company his dad went from being a very healthy man to being basically looking like a skeleton and almost died and then I've got I know of other people that did die so I think in the grand scheme of things when we think about um vaccines was it a net positive that we had a vaccine there is from everything I know now I have slowly and reluctantly come to the conclusion that the covid vaccine introduction has had a catastrophic overall net negative effect on the population and society and one of the and and let me just cave at this cuz You' mentioned the fact that people suffered from covid and I'm not denying that I've got patients Steve that I see that have had long covid that weren't vaccinated okay and have suffered quite badly most of the most serious aspects of covid happened early on in 2020 and predominantly affected the Elder and we've got all of that data now that's been reanalyzed by one of the world's top scientists and even Looking Back Now essentially if you were under 70 even from the beginning your risk of serious harm from covid is in the ballpark figure of the flu right and even I actually was wrong I wrote an article in European scientist in Mar in April 2020 because I actually initially started making a lot of noise about why we not talking about lifestyle with covid to help people mitigate you know the IM improve their immune system and I said
you know talking to um a friend of mine who works in the busiest Dr in America in in New York who I've done work with and he said to seem this is I've never seen anything like this is devastating some of my colleagues are dying so I have no doubt that at the very beginning in the early strain of the virus it was really bad especially for vulnerable people people with obesity Etc because even I I I remember getting Co was actually used to live on the top floor of this building and I remember I've never experienced anything quite as bizarre as the symptom set that I had when I got covid the fact that at 3:00 a.m. in the morning I don't take medicine so fact 3 a.m. in the morning I'm lying flat on my floor ordering ibuprofen on Uber Eats because my back I just had the most bizarre like back pain and so I was having to like lie flat on the floor cuz I couldn't even lie in bed it was so bad it just this weird set of symptoms that i' never had before my my partner she lost her smell and taste and it was so unusual it was so unusual um there's not been a time in my lifetime that people have lost their smell and taste on mass so when I when it when you hear it compared to the flu you go this was not the flu this is something different yes no the symptoms are very different and I think now it's accepted um that um and we won't go into a lot of detail on B but I think one of the reasons as well it was human engineered you know it almost certainly the evidence points it being a lab leak right so it had a very you're right it was very different to any other virus that used to be a conspiracy theory I know right now it's not a conspiracy theory I know I know ex it's funny yeah when you hear about that lab in Wuhan that were messing around with viruses and then we we decided to put the blame on like a market store but I think now the general consensus is that it probably came from that lab in Wuhan yeah absolutely absolutely and I've spoken to in fact I I spent time with actually the scientists that first went public with it who identified it um guy in America sorry in Australia um so yeah that came from Lab but so I think it had these different strange things loss of smell Etc but in terms of serious illness um it was there at the beginning now when you when you look back I think
essentially there were vulnerable elderly but uh you know who who suffered um especially people in nursing homes with a lot of deaths there but there's so many other components to this so one is did we Institute the correct treatments a lot of people were killed because they weren't managed properly in itu you know in terms of putting people intubating them putting on respirators when they didn't need it and that in itself has a risk um some of the wrong treatments were given there were other treatments now that we look back that probably would have been helpful things like itin which I know has been a bit controversial but um was very it's a very safer than paracetamol right so first Do no harm okay um but it may have done some good and a lot of people and doctors around the world that used it in several thousand there a doctor South Africa that used it in 14,000 patients including many elderly not a single one died from Co and this is early on so all these things that we missed we missed a lifestyle intervention so all those things are there but by the time you get to the end of 2020 the beginning of 2021 there are so many things that happen Steve that you have to think about before you introduce a vaccine one is what is the state of the virus right now um and it had already mutated to some degree and become less lethal there is natural immunity which we know is very powerful right um and but the issue with the vaccine is and certainly it was probably there from the beginning we know that when one looks at the original trials there was a and this is what the drug companies have doing for a long long period of time they will mislead people using statistics about the benefits so you use something called relative risk reduction so let me just explain this because you can apply this to statins as well is they presented the benefit as a 95% protection against infection remember that figure 95% right and and it was what we call relative risk reduction so if you've got for example two groups in a trial say 100 in one trial in in in in one group and 100 another and let's just say let's give you an example of statins and you're you're following them up over five years to look at a drug to see if it benefits them in preventing having a heart
attack in one group they get the dummy pill um and you follow them up over five years and in the people that got the dummy pill in fact you didn't do anything different two of them suffered a heart attack in the other group the other hundred people that were followed up over 5 years who got the pill the the drug right only one suffered a heart attack so you've reduced the heart attack Risk by 50% right two to one right 50% but you've only prevented one heart attack you've treated 100 people but you've prevented one heart attack out of treating 100 yeah does that make sense so that's a 1% absolute benefit in other words when you explain that to a patient when I ask when I have engage in we call informed consent shared decision- making when they ask me about drug I'll say this gives you a 1% chance if you take this drug religiously of preventing a heart attack now you you apply that to the original covid vaccine trials which by the way have so many other problems with them because even those trials were conducted and analyzed and designed by the drug industry I mean this is one of the biggest myths that needs to be busted Steve out there for most doctors um as well as members of the public medical knowledge is under commercial control but most people don't know that so what happens is they did the trial but let's just talk about what the results the their results showed us a 95% relative risk reduction against infection they didn't show any reduction in uh covid death by the way in that trial right they just said prevent from infection but we then presume it may then prevent right uh reduce death rates the absolute risk reduction from infection at the beginning was one was 0.84% one in 119 so that's how many people you need to vaccinate to prevent one infection which actually people were not told that so imagine you're thinking should take this vaccine say well Steve there's a one less than 1% chance that it's going to prevent you getting infected people weren't told that but but that it then reduced my chance of getting seriously ill right no but we've then talked about that haven't we like as in when you look at the data certainly beginning of 2023 that was looking over the previous year 2022 you have to vaccinate 2,500 people
to prent one person getting serious heal with covid right if you're over 70 with the second St with the other strain with the other strain and it may have been better to see you're right it may it probably was better but it's still numbers are still much smaller than what people were led to believe and and by the way Steve The Narrative at the beginning they kept changing the goalpost remember it wasn't about preventing serious illness and death it was all about preventing infection you are not in America you've seen it all over CNN Rachel madow and she's saying it so passionately if you take this vaccine you are not going to get covid and calling anyone who who questions it being a science I mean Jesus Christ so my last question on that before I I said what I was going to say is um do you think there would have been less deaths overall if we hadn't have had a vaccine yes you think there would have been less deaths by now when you look at it so I think over time so so where we are now start um so if we hadn't have introduce the vaccine for that first drain of Co you think there'd be less deaths okay if I was to I still think that if okay this is very nuanced but important if the vaccine had only been offered to the high-risk people at the beginning say the over 70s or people with multiple risk factors I think there is a case to be made right I'm going to counter that in a minute though but there is a case to be made that there was overall benefit versus harm but there's a problem one there wasn't true informed consent right because those figures those numbers weren't given to people about the prevention of infection Etc right um and two if you have an average serious harm rate of 1 in 800 any scientist even Regulators would have said hold on a minute this is way too high this is too risky and this is by the way Steve only the short term because remember this vaccine didn't go through what other vaccines have gone through which is 5 to 10 years of safety testing so if you throw all those caveats in and use inform formed consent I can guarantee you with all of my knowledge expertise experience with patients when you engage in these conversations most of those elderly people will probably
have still refused it but but but yes I think there is a case to be made that the the benefits may have way outweighed the Harms in those high-risk people at the very beginning in the short term absolutely you know when I think about Rachel madow and what she said on TV about you know it's going to stop the spread of infection Etc I can have a degree of empathy because if that's the information you're being fed and you are a public facing broadcaster and it's been fed to by scientists and it's been fed you by the NHS and whoever else and you know very credible people that you've been raised to believe and to trust if you're a public facing broadcaster what else are you going to say you're not going to say the opposite you're not you can't sit on the fence your job is to broadcast it's the news right so I I have and I think you did the same you said earlier you went on Good Morning Britain or something and said the same I'm and I'm not blaming Rachel M here I'm just saying that the indoctrination that came through the mainstream media was so strong through people like Rachel mad and why is that important Steve I had a conversation with the chairman of the British Medical Association in December 2021 when I was campaigning to overturn vaccine mandates for healthcare workers he had access to Sag Javid I had a previous uh Report with Matt hanok but he had obviously left by then um and I spoke to his name is Shan nagul and I explained everything I knew about the vaccine after looking at data at that point I hadn't published at this point but I went through it in in in in a logical way chairman of the BMA by the way not just some random person and he said Asim no one appears to have critically appraised the evidence on the vaccine as well as you have from our to our chair most of my colleagues who are in senior policy you know medical position establishment positions are getting their information on the benefits and harms of the vaccine from the BBC it's it's super difficult isn't that extraordinary though I think it's really difficult because if I if you're dealing with lots of people dying on mass and it's happened very very quickly and people are just dropping dead and you're seeing you know
hospitals being overrun you've got to you got to tread carefully with the information you're putting out there so if the scientific information comes in early and maybe a little bit too too soon before it's really been vetted and triple checked saying one thing and you're desperate for answers I can I can see why a group of people would say okay this is the best information and then to go against that information could potentially cause tons of harm so I can also imagine why a group of people would be really slow to then change their mind away from because you're dealing with like lot people I was that person too so I'm with you on that 100% I think where I'm taking this is the system if it had been more transparent early on and this is where I've been you know banging my you know head against a brick wall to some degree for about decade if there was more transparency in the system we would have had better information even from the beginning but that information was kept commercially confidential because of the system that really is geared towards uh supporting the interest of big farmer not in the interest of people's health and that and and if that and that's the key Point here right this is we're looking back over time think how did this happen how do we allow this to happen we need to go deeper say how do we stop this happening again in the future so we have better information that's all I'm saying do you think it is malicious like a government level do you think no you don't think it is not at all I um know many politicians uh very senior people um cross party uh some of them I called my friends uh many of them come to me for medical advice right um in fact one of them uh you know he lost1 p on my poy diet with Tom Watson the deputy leader of the labor party right so um and and and these genuinely by and large are decent people that want to do the right thing but they are also fed you know misinformation by lobbyists they take as expert opinion or information stuff that has been curated for the purposes of the interest of big food a big farmer you know when I um campaigned on you getting the sugar tax introduced you know I wrote articles in the bmj and I started writing every newspaper and I remember I thought we're
going to win this because the front page of the Daily Mail was sugars and new tobacco and that put pressure on the then secret State Jeremy Hunt because the male then decided they were going to go right and of course you know that government conservative government are particularly you know influenced by what the daily mail writes because they traditionally one of their supporters but there was a story around that time where they exposed and it was on the front page that government ministers in terms of obesity strategy how do we solve the Obesity epidemic had had 99 meetings with representatives of the food industry and not a single meeting with a public health doctor for example so I know how that happen that obvious that the system should be more transparent to make sure that they understand that those those politicians but many of them um were shocked you know when I when I told them this information they trust me um one of them you know was very a former government Minister who who said a seem you know this is she's shocked by it but that now understands it they were captured as well but we were all we were in a state of fear Steve as well we let's not underestimate that at the very beginning we were all scared we didn't know what we were dealing with and of course we have to have empathy for ourselves when you're in a state of fear right for allbe it you know I think it was a big error to something some degree and everybody was scared and I don't think it was malicious to create that fear initially um it stops US you know being into be being able psychologically it inhibits your ability to engage in critical thinking and all of us were in that position is there a risk now that if there was a deadly vac uh deadly virus that broke out across the world people are so scared of vaccines now that they would not go and get it because there something I was saying to my friend the day I was like we've gotten to a point now I think so many people are skeptical about vaccines that if if something does come from another lab somewhere and it is really fatal and the government stand on that Podium again and say hands face space whatever it was that slogan and they say um we need you to all go get this vaccine who's going to go get it yeah no
I I agree I don't like that situation I don't want it to be in the situation but you're right there there will be another pandemic there is a big risk and um the way around that is and this is what we're taught as doctors right it's one of the things is ingrained into us a medical school um is that when you make a mistake you tell the patient patients are very forgiving if they think and know that you acted from a place of good intent cuz mistakes happen things go wrong this is what we need as am Mia Cula right I was willing to do that I mean in some way I was partly responsible certainly the very early stage to support a vaccine roll out but I know that the most important thing for me to do when new information comes available and medicine again is not an exact science it evolves but let's play that out let's play that out so if we do if we had a situation where the I don't know the scientists that said really positive things about the vaccine that it was side effect free or whatever they come out now and they say we were totally wrong and they say we got it so so let's play out that scenario what would happen the next day on social media is everybody who was criticized or critiqued or lost their job or was I don't know in some way penalized for their views that there might be side effects that we're not talking about would immediately go to their their base of Their audience and say I told you so the conspiracy theorists on the internet who are really extreme that believe that there's a group of people wearing like tin hats that have come up with this idea they would be empowered and what you'd then have is a situation where another V another pandemic rolls in from a far away land those people said listen you know those people that so TR to say it it would in my mind it would fuel the um the narrative that vaccines are bad and less like people would be less likely to take them because we're not driven by facts stats graphs and figures we're driven by emotion yeah it's much more powerful yeah then just if a scientist standing there and showing me a graph it's how I feel which matters the most and if I felt like I was betrayed and lied to there's no chance that I'd run down and
get another jab or something in my arm it's an uncomfortable truth that needs facing though Steve because if we don't face it these problems are going to carry on we're not going to improve the situation by ignoring it and sweeping under the carpet so there will be that you're right there will be that backlash I myself have had that right I've had people you know I I got heckled you know um a talk I gave on this for the first time when I spoke at it in London um saying I was part of it all you're a liar all this stuff yeah absolutely I I got you knowes were thrown at me and I I understand where that emotion comes from but at the end of the day the only way we can progress and evolve is just accepting but that you know because we want to then it's not just about saying we got this wrong it's actually explaining to people and saying okay we thought we were doing the right thing these are problems in the system we weren't aware of most people are not aware of this we need to resolve this and move forward with greater transparency and over time now okay within the immediate aftermath of course there's going to be that emotional reaction there's going to be a backlash if there happen to be a pandemic within a short space of time after that admission yes it may well be that people aren't going to go and take vaccines but why should they Steve vaccines are can save your life no no no I'm talking about a new anything new I'm not talking about so yes absolutely traditional vaccines I mean I'm still a big subscriber and supporter let me just make this clear traditional vaccines in my paper that I wrote I said you know estimates suggest vaccines have saved four to five million lives a year and a serious harm rate of vaccines I think there's of course there's going to be nothing's completely safe no drug is pharmacolog completely safe but just in terms of published data right probably still an exaggeration but still it gives you it gives you a comparison serious harm rate for traditional vaccines one to two per million all right people aren't very smart though including me when it comes to when I hear the word vaccine I think all vaccines you think we don't know what a vaccine is no I know so it's just a word it's like if you said to me dogs are savaging one in
800 people you know the average person isn't might not the average person might not think if that's a Chihuahua or like a German Shepherd we just heard dogs and then there's going to be a fear of dogs and I think the same with the vaccines we don't know the difference between different vaccines we just think they're all the same so if you tell me that vaccines are causing x y and Zed I'm going I don't care if someone offers me a flu shot or whatever thing or whatever it's the trust that's been eroded in the system and it's my trust in the word vaccine that's been a yeah no and it's it's unfortunate it's unfortunate that that that has definitely showed there has been a dent and a change I think an uptake of things like MMR malaria vacc saved my life when I was a kid I got my all my family got malaria we're in Africa so they all got pretty bad Valaria and uh so we yeah my pretty pretty serious as well I think I almost died of uh malaria I hear from my mother Steve the thing is with doal vaccines they went through many many years of safety checks right and this is an important thing people I think we shouldn't underestimate people's intelligence and their ability to understand and forgive as long as we communicate it in the right way I have these conversations all the time with my patients you know I give them numbers I talk through it when I talk about statin drugs for example I say I'm going to give you these numbers but there are lots of caveats here one the data has never been independently verified right and I give them all this and I give them Alternatives Etc I do this all the time and patients want that they want more information in a way that they can understand and of course yes they want to trust their doctor but again it's all it comes down to ethics values intent and doctors not admitting their mistakes is a very very bad place to be the chair of the clinical Cardiology at the University of Edenberg Professor Mark DW commented that um on your opinion saying the covid vaccines the covid vaccine opinions you have are misguided and in fact dangerous the vast majority of cardiologists do not agree with your views and they are not based on robust science now if you're someone listening to this now I've got your opinion and
I've got this guy's opinion the chair of the clinical Cardiology at the University of Edinburgh I've got the NH saying that vaccines are safe and extensively reviewed in both adults and children and that the independent medicines and healthc care products regulatory agency is continually monitoring the safety of covid vaccines and reports of side effects are very rare and then I've got your view how do I as someone that's hearing this in this year and this in this year figure out what to believe because everyone's so compelling everyone's got data well you just ultimately you got to go with your own intuition Steve who my intuition is always going to side with fear yeah I'm a human being maybe and and this stuff works um I'll come on to this and this was a bit of a hatchet job by the guardian interestingly I've written 19 opets for the guardian Observer newspaper over the years but you know how the how this journalism Works they'll move on um a couple of things just a couple of facts to throw back at you first and then what you've raised is really interesting historically and something that I've learned from this sort of backlash um Mark DW with the greatest respect to him uh what wasn't disclosed in the article is that he has taken money from fiser he's he's he's you know been funded by fiser and that's factual you can look that up right that's one thing so that's a bias um the more important than that the MH which was described as independent right yes is not the British medical journal bmj did an investigation published um in the summer of 2022 and I presented this data on the on on the MH at the British medical association annual conference where the president of the BMA was there the chair of the BMA was there right and they were gobsmacked and they didn't they couldn't believe and this is why this information so important these facts so important the ma even I was shocked when I read this our medical regulator in this country MH gets 86% of its funding from Big farmer which is a huge bias so they're not independent so those those are two facts should at least if I threw that back you hold on a minute then should I believe all this now what was the purpose of that article of course it
was to undermine my credibility I'm exposing essentially something you know it for all intents purpos is pretty horrific you know reluctantly on the BBC with 25 million views or whatever else right um but people that inspire me have been through far worse right and and I'm an activist that want to expose injustices right um the likes of Mandela Gandhi Martin Luther King one of the lessons from them and even in public health advocacy as soon as your work threatens an industry or an ideological cabal you will be attacked sometimes unrelentingly and viciously and that was really a hatet job can what about that the second part of the quote that where he says that the vast majority of cardiologists do not agree with your views um is that true your opinion he's giving his opinion but actually um from every okay every cardiologist I spoke to has basically said assume you're going to do doing great work but they won't speak out and this is part of the problem right is that people are turning a blind eye I had uh one cardiologist um who met me in the street right these are I have this happens all the time and he said I read your he said I can tell you now although they won't admit it publicly all the cardiologists in our department and they know you and they and they they trust where you come from and your integrity none of them are having any more covid vaccines because of you they're on to it but Steve this is a problem only a small minority of people are willing to speak out I have a platform where I'm able to articulate it and and do so but that is my duty and responsibility this is just a reflection of uh what is ultimately a big farmer tyranny you know I know you've interviewed Jordan Peterson who I um admire greatly uh and and Jordan Peterson says when you have something to say silence is a lie and you know tyny tyranny emerges when people are afraid to say what they think and when everybody essentially lies all the time by being silent that's when the Tyranny is complete this is exactly where we are but I do want to mention something if you don't if if you don't mind like I have to go through this right myself and it's not easy right you get all this stuff and people tracking credibility and I remember when that that that Guardian hit piece which was like the
you know the top story that day I actually felt in many Mick feelings but I felt ah over the target here right because Gandhi said first they ignore you then they laugh at you then they fight you then you win so the point is these things work Steve but you know the truth is the truth so what is the reality then of your of your life going through that because you know if you get attacked from all angles you've not got immediate family there you're you're reading stuff about yourself online all the time your colleagues Etc are turning on you what what's life like in if I'm a fly on the wall in those hard moments um very deep pain on to to to have the knowledge and deep and understanding that in my view we are dealing with one of the greatest likely corporate crimes medical mistakes damage to People's Health people are suffering people are dying people have got all sorts of problems because of this vaccine to have that deep knowledge and understanding and to not be able to see any great progress or enough progress for this to be resolved or to be improved that suffering around me gives me very deep pain more than anything else why I think inherently I'm just very sensitive to that around that's just the way I am I think it's part of my innate nature I've always been like that you know I had a I went for um you know on the positive side there are a lot of good friends around you know I haven't got immediate emotional support if that makes sense right where I am but there are hundreds of thousands of people that support me certainly who follow me on Twitter and I people come in meet me in the street I randomly bumped into this doctor in the street who I didn't know an older doctor quite well known I won't name him um and he said he he got really emotional in the street and he met me and he said Dr mahra thank you for everything you are doing with all of this and I said well you know I I tried to be as humble with it I said I'm just a medium for a message I'm doing the right thing he said no what you're doing is extremely Brave and I'm with you 100% And I know the vaccine killed one of my colleagues etc etc and he very honest said I'm just
too frightened to speak up but that gives me fuel right and this this happens constantly so that I think there is definitely something that I get from that so let me summarize your position then cuz I want to move on to I want to talk about St and heart dis particularly high cholesterol CU I got told by my doctor of high high cholesterol to summarize your position is you believe that vaccines themselves are net good for the world some of the greatest achievements in medicine are traditional vaccines no doubt you believe that the covid vaccine at the start when administered to certain age groups that were most vulnerable there's an argument to say that it was it was a net positive yeah I think there's an argument and that believe after sort of 2022 or 2021 when the variant changed to another I think it was called omnicron wasn't it um that at that point it certainly became a net negative is that your view I would think probably earlier St the only reason I saying that is anecdotal evidence of course is my dad had a cardiac arrest in the summer of 2021 he was 73 right and he could be considered in highrisk group so I think that if one was to make that case I would say well well it depends what we talking about as well in terms of covid yes right the net benefit in terms of covid and covid deaths but the problem is what's the point in preventing someone getting covid if six months later they're going to die of a cardiac arrest you see what I mean so we've got to look at it in that nuanced way but yeah I think there is a case to be made that if it was just given to certain high-risk groups overall there may have been a net benefit at the beginning but where we are now and where it's continued and the mandates and all the stuff that extended it to many more people taking it and that almost certainly was being fueled by fiser and that's been shown that they were you know giving money to Grass credible Grassroots organizations in the US to promote the mandates right this is after the data they received showing that it wasn't preventing infection and causing serious harm right so this is this is a problem with the system I'm not blaming individuals here this is something we'll talk about with Statin as well is that um the uh the system the corporate
capitalist system or the way capitalism is is actually being implemented is in it in many ways and this has been diagnosed by forensic psychologist uh the the corporation as an institution is psychopathic when it comes to making money that means they have callous unconcern for the safety of others repeated lying conning others for profit and this is unfortunately this is the root of the problem and you also believe that there is a chance as well and it's likely that the impacts of the lifestyle changes the lockdowns ETC the stress the health issues the removing people from being able to see their loved ones the sedentary Lifestyles also contributed to the rise in heart related conditions in heart disease 100% it's played a role a smaller role but it's played a role 100% so I want to talk about heart disease because I don't even know what heart disease is and also I don't know what a heart attack is I think we kind of all just assume we know but what what is a what is a heart what's heart disease and what's a heart attack so heart disease uh the conventional description or explanation of heart disease is disease that affects the blood vessels of the heart essentially okay that's that's the coronary artery disease we call it that's what most people when they talk about heart disease that's what that's what they mean um so that disease that affects the blood vessels leads to buildup of something called plaque uh which is furring if you like okay like a plaque plaque yeah so plaque is furring of the artery like a blockage okay right a blockage that blockage is made up of uh cells of the immune system it's made up of cholesterol right and over time that those blockages can either suddenly uh like a pimple building up and the pimple getting bigger and bigger and bigger or even a small pimple suddenly bursting and the contents of that plaque right the response to um the blood having contact with the contents of that plaque that has built up over time suddenly causes a clot to form and if the clot blocks the whole archery then during the blood supply is completely cut off to the heart muscle so the the purpose of those blood
vessels is to supply the heart muscle with blood so it can contract so if you have a blockage that is there for several minutes completely cutting off the blood supply depending on where it is it will cause that area of the heart muscle to lose its oxygen supply and nutrients and die and Scar and that leads to cell death but of course a heart muscle is quite big so it could be a very small heart attack could be a big heart attack and then so so heart attack specifically is death of any region of the heart muscle because of a blockage okay I'm going to the death of the cells I'm going to try and play this back to you yeah correct me where I'm wrong so you get this buildup in your artery yeah but due to a bunch of factors about the buildup explodes yes flows through the blood blocking the artery at some point yes and then that blockage in the artery causes a cell in the heart some areas in the heart to die because they're not getting oxygen exactly so so you you cut you've basically cut off the blood supply so it's cutting off the blood supply to whatever are because there are many branches it depends where the blockage is you cut off the blood supply if it's cut off for long enough those cells every cell in our body needs oxygen to survive right then that those that part of the heart muscle will die and become scarred so it dies and becomes scar in about seven 7 eight minutes you said it can well it can take you know 15 to 20 minutes it depends on different factors but within minutes yes and how does that feel from minute one till minute sort of 10 so the classic symptoms of a heart attack right that is a central what we call crushing heaviness or pain that can travel radiate we say in medical terms to the neck the jaw it can go into the shoulders um it can go into the back that's the classic symptoms or down the left left arm and you're conscious at this point yes you're conscious so a cardiac arrest just means the heart stopping ultimately actually we all have a cardiac arrest when we die the last thing to go is our heart right but um one of the most common causes of a cardiac arrest certainly prematurely not because of old age for example is um and this is random so you can have a heart attack and you can be conscious and have pain and you get to hospital and you get
diagnosed and you might have a you know a stent put in or you might be put on blood thinners or whatever um in a certain proportion of people um and it doesn't depend on the size of the heart attack so um you can have a big area of the heart muscle that's damage or a small area of the heart muscle of damage and it's random that it can cause an interruption in the normal electrical activity of the heart the heart has electrical circuit that allows it to pump right there an electrical circuit that allows it to pump in a certain you know in a in a in a regular rhythm that circuit can get interrupted and then the heart muscle that's pumping like this right because it's pumping all the blood around your body to your brain everything else suddenly starts quivering right uh and that's known as ventricular fibrillation that's when you see on all the you know on movies or on TV shows and stuff like that when they start shocking people and that shows on the heart tracing as a kind of squiggle like this okay right and that is what we call a shockable rhythm if you deliver a shock you know often 200 Jewels right is is delivered with a defibrillator that will often restart the heart into a normal Rhythm and then the patient can be managed and treated for example so that's but that quivering of the heart causes basically the heart to stop pumping blood around the body the heart's still moving but it's not enough to pump blood around the body and if that's going for a very long time Steve not lot long you know for example in my dad's case it may have been similar 20 or 30 minutes then eventually then you know that will even stop and patient dies so I've read some stats from a different source that said in the UK one in eight men and one in 14 women die from coronary heart disease over the course of their lifetime and that nearly 50% of all us adults have some type of heart disease um and before the pandemic hit in 2019 12 children died every single week in the UK from cardiac arrest so I mean this is if anything's going to kill me it's probably this yes most likely so how do I stop it right um how do you stop it how do you even reverse it how about some statins yeah so okay let me just say this my doctor I got my lab results back like three days ago and he told me a couple of things
one thing he told me is you got low vitamin D I said fine yeah get it I'm in a room all day uh the second thing he said is your cholesterol is high he said your bad cholesterol is high and I I don't really know what to make of that but he said your your bad cholesterol is high and I need to get that down um my father takes statins which I know a lot of people take statins I think it's like 200 million people are taking statins globally um so because I have you here what do you think of of what the advice I was given which is just to get my bad cholesterol down and how do I prevent myself ending up on either statins or having a heart attack okay so on the statins issue and the cholesterol issue traditionally Steve for uh decades and even now the one of the the primary focus within medicine within Cardiology to combat heart disease was to get your so-called bad cholesterol LDL as low as possible so LDL means bad cholesterol it's called low density lipoprotein right which is the bad stuff so well it's thought of conventionally as a bad cholesterol right and the reason for that is is the earlier studies that were done on uh the correlation that was found between high cholesterol and heart disease um revealed at very high levels of total cholesterol there was a very high um prevalence of heart disease but those levels of of cholesterol going and we got we're talking about going back from you know studies that started in 1948 that went over three decades where they they found cholesterol being associated with heart disease was only really there at very very high levels that's the first thing the second part of it and why they thought that getting it as low as possible was a solution is that people who had very low levels of cholesterol tended not get heart disease right total cholesterol less than four LDL less than two milles let's just say that for argument sake less than 2 milles per liter and by the way just so just so people understand this you would have got a red mark probably saying that your LDL cholesterol is high if it's more now the the guideline suggests if it's more than three milles per liter in your blood the measurement that is considered high but we we we'll we'll tear that we we'll tease that apart in a second now the thinking was that okay if people
with low cholesterol are not getting heart disease and people with very high levels of cholesterol are getting disease and that was total cholesterol above 10 for example right and ldls above seven or eight massively high right then or or or more likely to get heart disease at significant numbers uh the thinking was that the lower the better so all these drug trials started but there's one thing missing first and foremost is that most people's cholesterol Steve LDL is genetic 80% of your cholesterol because cholesterol is a very so why have we got it it's a very vital molecule in the body body it's without cholesterol you would die it's required for maintaining the Integrity of cells and cell membranes it's required for hormone production right it has a role in the immune system so it's really important vital molecule in the body you can change the profile of the cholesterol they different components there's something called triglycerides which is a blood fat and HDL so called good cholesterol and LDL through dietary changes but predominantly it's genetic initially right so this is a thing so that does that so so one could then question maybe those people in those original studies had genetically high cholesterol but that doesn't mean the cholesterol was the problem there may been something else that hadn't been measured that we hadn't discovered yet that was genetic that was causing the heart disease but it happened to also be causing a raised LDL and the same time people with low cholesterol they may have had something else right they may have had other factors that we now know actually are linked to heart disease and it's nothing to do with the cholesterol so that's the first thing the next question is um does lowering cholesterol so the question to you is does lowering your LDL make any difference and for many many years there was a mantra that was pushed by the medical establishment that there was a linear relationship the lower your LDL the less likely you have to get heart disease in fact there was a a commentary written by one of America's most well-known eminent cardiologists he was the editor of the American Journal of Cardiology his name was William Roberts and he wrote an article in 2011
to try and push the cluster further so more people most more people take cholesterol oring drug statins and it was called it's the cholesterol stupid and there's a line in that which I mentioned in my book where he said you can be an obese diabetic sedentary smoker but as long as your cholesterol is low enough in other words to LDL cholesterol you will not develop heart disease think about that for second now I'm just putting that to you Steve now you hearing that what do does that sound plausible to you no right it doesn't does it it it sounds a bit strange doesn't it right and I thought this is odd I started looking into this in a lot of detail probably 2010 partly because by the end of the by by the late 90s the people who had discovered the relationship with very high LDL cholesterol which is actually by the way genetically linked to a condition called familial hypolipidemia affects one inter 50 people right his people's chestal the Sky High um those people who got the Nobel Prize for Discovery said they predicted the almost the eradication of heart disease in the world by the early 2000s because we had discovered these drugs called statin drugs at lower cholesterol and are shown through clinical trials to prevent heart attacks and strokes and death which we'll come on to right so you've got the combination of that but before statins came on to the market and have been prescribed now to 200 million people one of the things that isn't talked about enough is that there were lots of Trials done so you've got this hypothesis now we think we're right here we've discovered that very high cholesterol in the population has got strong link to heart disease and we've discovered that very low cholesterol doesn't give heart disease but by the way what's interesting is for 95% of the population in the middle there was no relationship with who was going to Dev heart disease and who wasn't depending on the based upon their cholesterol okay but they thought let's develop these drugs to lower cholesterol and we prevent heart attack so all the drug trials Steve before statins came on the market did not show any benefit so you've got the trial where you've You' got someone with high cholesterol and and another person with high cholesterol one person gets a
drug the other person doesn't you follow them up the person on the drug massively lowers the cholesterol no prevention heart attacks over several years like hold on what's going on here maybe we did the trial wrong let's try again let's try again let's try again statins are produced okay a different type of cholesterol Ling drug and suddenly you start seeing benefits heart oh great we've solved it then we can make this case that the lower cholesterol the better two problems with that the first one is that statins actually have other properties other than lowering LDL cholesterol they are also anti-inflammatory and they have anticlotting properties what's accepted now is we know heart disease is a problem is a a is a clotting problem linked to chronic inflammation so it means the benefit of statins which I will give you in a second right is probably more likely because of those properties because other studies when we did other drugs Lo cholesterol there was no benefit does that make sense am I making sense there so tarting the information and the clotting exactly so the question then is what are the benefit of statins so the first thing to say and this is where the controversy has happened um is that what I'm about to tell you is again based upon drug industry sponsored trials where the raw data on those trials with the benefits I'm going to tell you has never been independently verified so what I say to patients and I'll say this to you is what I'm about to tell you is likely my opinion an exaggerated benefit but it's still a benefit I'm going to tell you if we trust the drug companies completely this is a benefit you're going to get Steve if you've not had a heart attack forget about high cholesterol for a second right this applies to everybody if you've not had a heart attack or you have not been diagnosed with severe blockages right you've not got that right and you you would know if you did because you'd get symptoms of chest pain doing exercise then the benefit of a Statin for you over a 5-year period at best is one in 100 in preventing you having a nonfatal heart attack a non-disabling stroke but will not prolong your life by
one day so that's the first thing now when you do studies where you give patient that information in that transparent way more than two-thirds of them most of them will and I my experience as well say Doc those odds terms sounds great I want to prevent heart disease but I don't fancy take and this is before by the way we've talked about side effects where the controversy has happened which I've been heavily involved in is in my experience with patients and also other data that's out there a large proportion of patients will suffer quality let me be clear here it's not about serus right quality of life limiting side effects right that means most commonly fatigue muscle pain could be a rectile dysfunction sleep disturbance but stuff that makes you don't feel you don't feel good like this is not a good way to live the good news is it's reversible usually within a couple weeks of stopping the Statin or reducing the dose okay so that controversy uh led to me publishing in the British medical journ 2013 where me and another and a Harvard doctor in a separate article said we we believe that the side effect rate is probably in the order of one in five people 20 20% Which is quite high of those sorts of side effects right and that caused a bit of backlash because the group of researchers in Oxford who take money from Big farmer who write the guidelines around the world said this is going to scare people stop them taking STS and people will die but that for the lowrisk people no one's going to die because there's no benefit in morality now for high-risk people those are people who have had a heart attack um the benefit of a Statin is is better Steve okay so let's say for example some patient comes in they've had a heart attack and I'm telling them the benefit of the Statin if they take it religiously every day for five uh five years because that's how long the trials last where you can give them that information the benefit of preventing a further heart attack is one in 39 about 2.5% 1 in 39 and the benefit in prolonging their life is in 83 right there's another way of looking at the stats though based upon again industry sponsor trials all of the trials that have been done on statins and people might ask a question they
don't often ask this but they may ask a question how much longer am I going to live right like okay let's just throw this question to you say you've had a heart attack you survived a heart attack doctor says take this drug and and over a 5-year period how much extra life life extension would you hope or hope it would add over that 5 years you can you know you can do it over whether 20 years but just say 5 years to start with how much longer would you hope to live from taking that stat in okay so over five years then I'd say um maybe a year okay 25% more okay fine that sounds that sounds pretty good 20% more yeah okay um the actual figure not disputed from industry sponsor trials right 4.2 days just over four days is that because they haven't done it over a long enough period of time no I mean I know if you then extrapolate it out if you presume the benefits are going to keep going on you could then argue well over 10 years it'll be eight days and over 20 years it'll be 16 days or whatever right so so that's the information so this the reason I'm I'm I'm I'm telling you this Steve is that this information is important I'm not just a doctor I'm a potential patient I ask myself what would I want to know right I'm here to try and improve my quality of life and my health what is important to me what is important to patients this information is important especially Steve because it's not that I'm saying don't take statins a lot of people would say okay I'll take the drug right and if they don't get side effects why not you know it might be a bit of a lottery but why not take the drug and the people say that to me and that's fine and if they get side effects but the thing that's missing Steve is and this is where we come on to the question you asked me about how to prevent heart disease is there an alternative that doesn't give me side effects improves my quality of life and likely is going to help prevent stop me getting heart disease so what is that like Lifestyle Changes absolutely so 80% of heart disease is linked to environment and lifestyle okay so what is the the core most important biological phenomenon in the body that leads to heart disease which is not disputed but doesn't get it doesn't get
much of a um there's no market for the message because there is no you can't commodify this this is an interesting thing right so but it's it's really important information it's called insum resistance is a very important hormone in the body released by the pancreas helps maintain blood glucose within certain ranges so our cells can function optimally all right over time if your insulin is chronically raised too high or if your cells become resistant to them for whatever reason that is the most important driver of the development of these so-called plars these furring these blockages in the arteries so what causes ins resistance and how can you combat it or how you know how can you prevent and and potentially you know stabilize and even reverse we'll get on reversal as well because that's a fascinating area most important components diet okay I would say in big figure terms now probably 50% of heart disease around the world can be linked to poor diet okay so let's start with diet then I've actually got a bag of sugar that I brought with me because um when I think about insulin glucose bad diet the first thing my my brain thinks about is sugar so I've got this bag of sugar here that I brought with me um and I've got two look at us we've we've written sugar on it and covered up the brand because they didn't pay us but if there is a sugar brown that would like to do a brand deal please get in touch we're big fans if we need to be um what I actually would like you to to show me is how much sugar do I need to function and to be healthy okay the amount of sugar that you need to function and be healthy is zero there is no nutritional requirement whatsoever of of of this what we call added sugar or table sugar none at all so I don't need any you don't need any and the reason for that is very briefly our bodies need glucose to survive but you don't need any dietary source of glucose to survive right because your people go on what we call ketogenic diets and they literally eliminate all starch as well which also canins glucose um from their diet your body will make it itself from fat and protein so in terms of diets there is no value from sugar whatsoever it can give you energy of course yes but you can get
energy from other things but there's no nutritional value whatsoever zero so from a from a health perspective there is zero requirement for dietary sugar so when we say that Americans are consuming a lot of sugar every day are we talking about added sugar yeah we're talking about so the way that so the World Health Organization now um after I was involved in this campaign you know and there was a lot of attention on it they revise their guidelines so they recommend a maximum limit for the average adult of actually six teaspoons of either um so maximum limit okay which you don't need it but maximum Li limit because after that that's when the health consequences start to accumulate one two 3 4 five six okay so that's the maximum daily limit maximum daily limit okay but just to give you an example that's not let's so one sugary drink we don't name any Brands right you would have to would often a 330 mil let's say the most famous sugary drink uh in the world I have no idea who you're talking about would have nine teaspoons on nine spoons in one of those right and that's just in the 330 Mill imagine going to the cemon having half a liter whatever else right Jesus so one can of beep um nine teaspoons of sugar in yes which is yeah which is so four yeah absolutely so four gram is one teaspoon okay which is well above the daily recommend maximum one chocolate bar yeah like a standard sized chocolate bar what we grew up with about the same leave leave chocolate out of it right well listen you have dark chocolate I love chocolate right you know um for children the US Department of Agriculture for the average 4 to 8year old child think about kids as well they're the most vulnerable to a lot of this with these problems of sugar they recommend a maximum limit of three teaspoons yeah now the average person in this country in America is consuming at least 20 teaspoons now when we talk about sugar we're talking about world they they the word they use is free sugar so that means this sort of sugar added right to Foods um but it also includes fruit
juice honey and syrups same effect on your body the the I fruit whole fruit is fine but if you think about it um a glass of orange juice for example would usually have the uh the juice of six oranges okay you couldn't eat six oranges that easily you'd have one orange for example and there's fiber and the fiber does it has a counteracting effect on terms of the way that the um the glucose and fructose is affected absorbed in your body a lot of it to do with the rapid increase in the bloodstream of blood glucose and and that causes huge spikes in insulin and the problem with that over time of course is you get chronically raiseed insulin and heart disease but also interestingly the more rapidly you have a food that causes a glucose Spike the more quickly you're going to get a crash because insulin goes up quite quickly and it causes it to come down and it drives hunger yeah so that's another problem so the the food industry I think knew for a long time that's why you know in America and it may be similar here 70% of foods purchased in supermarket in America will have added sugar because they knew that it increases the the palatability and the consumption of course they're there to sell food not look after your health so you said 20 teaspoons is the average for an American at least 20 is probably much higher I'm going to have I'm going to have to ask you to show us that yeah so I can see what that looks like in a glass it's disgusting that's disgusting when you see it like that and you don't you don't realize that you're having that much sugar in a day but I mean technically that's what two cans of fizzy drink yeah yeah but the thing is a lot of the sugar that's been consumed are in foods that people wouldn't think have sugar in them they're not the usual junk food your cakes and biscuits and whatever else you know um they're in things even marketed as being healthy lowfat foods Etc lowfat yogurts so could you just summarize what we have here then these two glasses yeah so this is the maximum daily recommended limit by the World Health Organization of sugar consumption after which you then start doing you see increases risks of disease um and this is what at least least I think what most people are consuming at the
moment are you hopeful that there's something we can do about this at a society level well I think one important step was the fact that we in you know this levy on sugary drinks definitely would have some um impact partly based upon what we learned from Big tobacco you know Steve you know 50% of it's interesting crazy when you think about it now in 1970 50% of adults in the UK were smokers right we've got that down to about 17% now but massive reduction right and it happened education was important but the real the real intervention that had more um impact than anything else was actually taxation of cigarettes and it had twofold effect of course you make it a little bit more expensive you know you know this with your business background right it's going to reduce the the consumption but it was a way of also increasing awareness that this is harmful so I think the the sugar stuff is ongoing and I think a lot of people have Awareness on it I think now which is linked to sugar and I've written about this we need to treat Ultra processed food which a lot of the ultr processed food has added sugar as the new tobacco right this is more than 50% of the calories in the UK and more than 60% of the calories in the US is of people's daily consumption is coming from Ultra processed foods essentially described as if it comes out of a packet IND produced and you can read more than five ingredients usually with additives and preservatives it's Ultra process and best avoided and all of the research that's been done only points in One Direction and I think there are at least 32 different conditions or diseases now that are associated with the consumption of ultra processed food that is the major issue so because this is a predominantly an environmental problem right our our our food our food environment is saturated with this stuff even hospitals Steve I mean I the first campaign I got involved with is trying to get this stuff out of hospital I was like hold on we're treating patients with obesity related conditions yet we're serving them junk food in hospitals the staff 50% of NHS staff are overweight or obese what's the probability that if I'm cuz I want to
talk about Ultra processed foods as well as the shoes what's the probability that if I'm having that much sugar a day the big glass that I'm going to end up in your practice with some kind of heart disease I I wouldn't be able to give you a figure but you're definitely significantly increasing your risk well if that's the average American then what's the average American's chance of ending up in I guess causation needs to be established yeah of course and it depends what else they're having as well but but it's definitely putting them at significant increase risk of type 2 diabetes I think the figure Now in America if I'm not wrong is that a third to a half of adult Americans now are um pre-diabetic um the the broad so to answer your question in in a better way because we're already there unfortunately um the way to understand instant resistance on a personal level in terms of measurements body measurements there something called metabolic health and there are five components which are very easy to measure of metabolic Health okay um it's your waist circumference M right it's your blood triglycerides which is a form of the cholesterol being above 1.7 milles okay um it's your HDL cholesterol the good cholesterol being less than 1 Mill it's being pre-diabetic okay having a hba1c of more than 5.7% um or being prehypertensive so your blood pressure is above 120 over 80 average if you have um three of those that are abnormal you have something called metabolic syndrome puts you at the highest risk of heart disease and at least 50% if not more patients admitted with heart attacks will have metabolic syndrome but all those five parameters being in the normal range in America only one in eight adults have all of those in the normal range and only one in four people age between 20 and 40 think about that for a second so seven out of eight adult will have abnormal metabolic Health if we within a year if we just shifted a little bit people's eating habits and let's say we're eliminated Ultra processed food we got people to eat more nuts and seeds oily fish you know whole fruit and vegetables it's been estimated that you would half the death rates from heart disease within globally within one Year from 20 million to 10 million you'd be
out of business as a heart doctor um no there still be a lot of people to treat we got to help the other 10 million as well right but but I think the other thing as well is um what it does Steve though is it shifts the age so instead of someone having saying a dying prematurely having a heart attack at the age of say 65 you know they'll live to 85 so all we'll be doing as doctors is we'll be managing older people but that's fine you know we've improved longevity improved quality your life as well you refer to stress as a silent killer it's something we're not addressing I think as a society so to give put it in perspective when you look at risk factor for heart disease risk factors for heart disease um the major ones are smoking type two diabetes high blood pressure the risk of heart disease linked to stress chronic stress of more than a moderate degree is actually the same as being a smoker or having high blood pressure or having type two diabetes and most people I think are not managing it and certainly all the patients I see all the heart patients I see invariably all of them have had over the preceding years before their heart attack St stress levels are quite High what's the mechanism so from an evolutionary perspective if we were acute stress can be a lifesaver right if we were running away from a saber-tooth tiger right then what happens is the body produces clotting factors and inflammatory markers uh factors in the blood that if we were attacked they help reduce the risk of us bleeding to death so imagine now imagine that happening chronic stress you've got a lowgrade what we call chronic inflammation and chotic factors increase and that's been shown actually impr proven in um a study that was published in atlan a few years ago where they did an MRI of the brain of of young healthy people adults and they follow them up but they looked at the their subjective stress course they did like um questionnaires to measure their stress level subjectively they correlated that with looking at the amydala in the brain which is the emotional Center and then they looked at clotting factors and they even looked at heart attacks further down the line and
there was a perfect correlation with the subjective stress score the Amiga lighting up the clotting factors in the blood the inflammatory markers in the blood and heart attack so we we've got the plausible mechanism so if that's the case Steve there must be a way of curbing it and well how does one do that well the two most important cause of stress in society are work and relationship stress so those are things people can potentially work on right potentially but it's just to be aware of it but one of the interventions that I use with my patience um is actually breath work and meditation and one of the most extraordinary bits of research that I came across and it's in our documentary as well because we're go into a bit more detail on it I had to go and see it for myself to believe it actually properly believe it um a cardiologist in India for more than 20 years has been um through a lifestyle approach has been reversing heart disease so he did a study called the mount Abu this is a place in Northern India uh where he's got a huge community in a hospital people come to see him there and um he puts them through this lifestyle plan which in this study was you know they devout Hindus so it was a high fiber vegetarian diet it was two 30 minute brisk walks a day okay and something called Raj yoga meditation for 40 minutes which is a form of breath work but it's also a bit of a spiritual transformation as well it's about understanding where your anger comes from and all that kind of stuff so it goes quite deep and anyway he followed these people up who were diagnosed with at least 50 to 70% blockages in their archery so had heart disease for some reason they didn't want to have a um a bypass operation or a stent or they couldn't afford it and they wanted this lifestyle plan so he put them on lifestyle plan he repeated their anagrams after 2 years right he looked at the archeries again and on the people that had aded to the plan there was an average reduction of the blockage of 20% 70% became 50 50 became became 30 this is unheard of if you ask any cardiologist can heart disease be reverse saying no I've never even seen
it it's not possible Right but he showed this to be the case he then looked at his data a bit in a bit more detail and said was it the diet was it the exercise the TU or was it the stress reduction the only of course they're all important but the only independent factor for the reversal of the blockages was for 40 minutes of Raj yoga meditation per day now I asked him you know he published this data in what we call a um an observational study it wasn't what we call a randomized trial where it was just more rigorously done and he said why have you not done the randomized trial he said I have years ago and he showed me the data and I was like wow why didn't you publish this anywhere couldn't get it published he invited and I could be wrong about it it was a it was senior it was a senior Cardiology societ Society can't remember if it the American Art Association but it was a senior Cardiology Society in America to um he invited them to India so he could present his data he presented his data to them and they basically thought it was fascinating but in between the lines they said to him you know we can't publish this because it will affect our stent business and what's a stent business stent is basically the heart stance like as in it would you know I remember Steve when I first um wrote an article the first sort of mainstream media article I wrote In 2011 was me it was in The Observer newspaper I'd met Jamie Oliver having written to him saying can you sort hospital food out and then I end up writing an article called I mend Hearts then I see our hospitals serve junk food to my patients uh basically saying listen we're going to tackle this Abes epidemic tackle heart disease we need to sort the diet out and I remember one of the cardiologists um who I knew a senior cardiologist I was still a junior doctor at this point kind of tongue in but many truths are spoken in J this is going to affect our our business our stent business as in operating on people as if it was a bad thing that I was saying that we should basically prevent heart disease right there's a cultural problem here Steve honestly I'm not this is this is this is a um a dirty secret if you like within medicine unfortunately
amongst establishment figures is that they have become so wedded and so close to these tyrannical corporations or their own self-interest that you know we're missing a big trick here in terms of what we can really do for patients in part your other book here that I have I still can't pronounce this word piy poy diet poy your poy diet I guess serves to address many of these issues and to make sure that our heart hearts stay healthy what I wanted you to do for me is if I'm endeavoring to have a a good heart health until I die which I guess is kind of impossible but maybe I'll get hit by a Chuck or something um if I'm endeavoring to have good heart health what should my day in an optimal situation what should my daily routine look like if I follow the diet that you came up with but also if I'm thinking through all of the potential things that can cause bad Health Sleep I wake up so I sleep for S hours so at least 7 hours sleep great okay W up Tick okay um eating real food okay so breakfast is how many how many meals a day should I have well two to three whatever suits you when you feel hungry eat till you're full not 78 n not no just and also I suppose if you're doing activity then you may but the most important thing is to avoid the ultr processed food and not to have too much starch what about fasting um controversial area mixed data um I think that in terms of you know I have patients who feel benefit from fasting and other people feel more stressed it depends where you are in your life if for example you're very active and your sleep isn't good actually fasting can make your stress levels worse which is not good it causes cortisol to increase and there is some data showing that happens so it depends where you are but I'm not averse to fasting it depends you know see how people feel okay so I've woken up I've had s hours of sleep I've eaten breakfast which was Whole Foods so yeah and and okay so I would say you know whole fruit and vegetables ideally um a mixture of of low sugar fruits if you can ideally you know berries mixed berries for example if you can get at least five to seven portions in that's great um the the foods that are thought so the the anti-inflammatory foods that have got a reasonable body of evidence
behind them things like extra Vision olive oil is your base fat okay nuts and seeds tree nuts almonds walnuts um hazelnuts for example oily fish at least a couple of times a week right and then I would say minimizing you know the starch and the sugar okay and the rest of it doesn't matter you can have you know I have heart patients asking me whe they can eat a steak I said absolutely it's not going to cause you know it's very nutritious if you want to have a steak two or three times a week no issue saturated fat in the diet isn't a problem I busted that myth so butter cheese for example um red meat is not going to have any adverse effect on your heart okay so I've eaten my breakfast you want enjoy your food as well right yeah so that's my sleep taking care of my meals that day taking care of what else do I need to be thinking about to optimize heart health well I suppose you got to think about what level it's very subjective you know if you're stressed and if you're stressed then you need to think about what can you do about it and there are different things some people find exercise um is good some people do yoga they do Pates some people do breath work so try and find I have an app called calm which I listen to I I do at least 20 to 30 sometimes 40 minutes of breath work every morning when I wake up it's the first thing I do actually I'm GNA do both I'm going to do breath work and I'm going to go for a long workout could is there such such a thing as too much exercise yeah unfortunately yes about 11% of e Elite athletes by the time they reach 50 will have scans that show very severe blockages or heart disease right um and I think Steve to be honest it might be genetic predisposition but I think a lot of those people I have some of these people coming to me who don't know why they've got diagnosed with heart disease and I remember one lady I saw a few months ago and she was running something like something crazy like 5 to 10 miles a day but on only 4our sleep and she was young and otherwise didn't have a diabetes or anything else but had heart disease had developed heart disease and I said this is probably because of this so uh I think that when you look at heart disease and optimal levels of exercise it is actually the one thing I think the
guidelines are right about is probably that 150 minutes of moderate activity a week so you know I again I I follow my own advice and I will um you know I I used to run but you know running can be quite damaging to the knees especially as you get older so I I cycle and do exercise bike and whatever else and I will get my heart rate to about 115 beats a minute for 30 minutes you know five times a week on study found that marathon runners experien a frequency of heart attacks and strokes similar to people who already have heart disease suggesting too much exercise is harmful which is in your book Statin free and um another stat here is athletes who do more than one hour of intense exercise per day four times um have four times the frequency of breathing infections per year compared to those who do moderate activties well that's the other thing about overe exercising well it depresses immune system that's well known uh and in fact if you look at and a lot of people do it for different reasons but if you look at the the communities around the world known as the blue zones Steve you know where people have high longevity these people weren't pounding it in the gym they're just outside you know they were gardening they were moving you don't need to be doing all of that kind of stuff people do it for different reasons I mean I I do it sometime also for mental health it's good you um didn't you publish an article you co-authored an article for the British Journal of Sports and Medicine called it's time to bust the myth of physical activity yeah physical inactivity and obesity you can't outrun a bad diet that was the title of the article and the point was and we make it very clear at the beginning that exercise has many benefits for health but weight loss is not one of them because most of what determines your weight gain almost all of it is to do with with what you eat and that discussion or that thinking whether it was about burning calories actually came from the food industry they they they they manufactured that um Coca-Cola McDonald's they would push this they even the Olympic Games 2012 they were the main sponsors right because for them they want to distract from their unhealthy products and say well the Obesity epidemic has been
driven by people not you know not exercising so on that day on this perfect day that I'm creating in my mind I'm eating well I've moved but not too much I'm doing breath work in the morning I've slept 7 hours a day and the last thing that from looking at your 21-day imun immunity plan is socializing yeah so so important I think one of the most important aspects for mental health physical health is the quality of our relationships friends family um people may laugh at this but I actually I actually prescribe hugging to a lot of my patients uh especially couples you know um there is definitely some benefits from that you know uh and uh in terms of reducing cortisol levels Etc I think that's an an issue in society in general you know we become we have been conditioned in a way to think that we can just be dependent on ourselves as individuals and we don't need other people but actually we do this is that's how we evolved partly because it helps us it helps us feel safe hugging I think it just it just yeah there is it activates parts of the brain the protection soothing mechanisms of the brain and I think that is just an extra element of it absolutely and they it reduces cortisol and all those things so it's going to Stave off heart attacks if we hug we have less chance of having a heart attack it's not not just about that I think it's also good for the immune system so there the people that did the original cold studies on on cold viruses this was done I think in early 2000s fascinating study they inoculated people with the cold virus so they put put the the traditional cold virus whatever into into people's you know nasal passages and they looked at who developed symptoms of a cold and who didn't and they looked and and before they did that they did these questionnaires based upon several different aspects of people's social life are they involved in community activities how often do they meet their friends what's it like with their partner etc etc and the people who had the highest scores only one in three of those people developed a cold and the people on the other side that were more maybe more Lon and weren't interacting with other people who didn't have good quality relationships two out of three of those people developed
Cals so it's not just about heart disease it's about the immune system as well overall health makes you think doesn't it if loneliness really is killing us yeah um we need to try and do more to end the epidemic that is loneliness because the stats seem to suggest it's going one way and it's not a good way um and part of that issue as well Steve which is a something we need to think about with what's going on society is I do we've got a worsening mental health crisis we've got less trust in government one of the ways societies progress is people being able to trust each other by people not being afraid to speak the truth and more than ever and certainly I've seen it in medicine we have got to a situation and the Cod vaccine is a microcosm of something much bigger where people are afraid to speak the truth and that gives us an element of uncertainty distrust and it makes us more stressed so what this means what it comes back to is ultimately part of the solution to the mental physical social well-being crisis heart disease is thinking about acting from a place of virtue and ethics right thinking about you know your intentions being honest not manipulating other people for money this is unfortunately where the the the the capitalist system or the current economic system has taken us and the corporatization of human beings as a result and that is very detrimental to our physical and mental health what was your father's name Kash Kash son never change your loyalties yeah loyalty was very important to him you know those I was brought with those core values about um honesty Integrity being loyal to people how to be a good human being how to be the best version of yourself Steve um that's what it's about you know for your benefit and for the benefit of others he said that to you when you were younger and you were considering switching football team um he told you to never change your loyalties and you Des I've got the eulogy you wrote for your father when he passed away here and it's interesting some of the the words and phrases that you used in the eulogy to him because they seem to be quite pertinent to our conversation today the ultimate purpose of knowledge is to reduce human suffering and that true
wisdom to achieve that end only comes from dialogue yeah that was a that was a Socratic Socrates quote truism comes only from dialogue um understanding others starts from understanding oneself and to get to an a greater truth one has to be able to question one's own beliefs and to get there to achieve that you have to engage uh with other people and have discussions but from a place of compassion where you are open to listening to other people because we can only get to a greater truth if you listen to all different sides on a particular issue and that comes from having that conversation so I think that's a huge component of it all which I think we're losing Sten Society there's so much polarization you know yeah and that's you know completely agree and you know it's it's difficult obviously because um conversation can be fatal it can be um especially medical conversation conversation about things like vaccines or health information so it's very delicate information but um the what can also be fatal is the lack of conversation are you not seeing ideas Collide and it's it's interesting as someone who speaks to a lot of health professionals on this podcast I'm not an expert in health and people will often criticize me for that and say you know um this they said this thing wrong or this thing wrong but I think the place that I've got to now is to present every opinion that I can yeah and hopefully to will people to be able to make up their own minds and I hope I tried to uh present some of the other side of um the at least the rebuttal so people can can be curious and we don't we're not pushing in any particular direction I have no Bloody Dog in the fight I and I'm not I want to have that conversation Steve I think part of the problem with all of this is that that conversation isn't even happening we want to have that conversation we want rebuttal we want a counterview yeah but the ignoring of even the conversation that for me is is is unforgivable it's a shame I think podcasts are doing a good job of kind of well I think a lot of them are doing a good job of just having that conversation yeah um because it's long form and there's I mean there's a there's a comment section so people are going to discuss below and there's you
know there's lots of podcasts there's a lot lot of information being thrown out into the world and um everything we've talked about today will be linked below as much of the the links as we can so if anybody is curious about anything we've discussed or any stats you'll send me your stuff absolutely and I'll link it below and I'll I'll link the NHS and the British heart foundation and anyone else below so people can have a think about that but I am a big fan of conversation and I'm a big fan of having both sides of an argument and trying to make my own mind up on things and find the Nuance I find the truth is usually somewhere in the middle yeah so I think it's important because you know one of the things I think we have to we have to reflect on is some of those amazing people you talked about like Martin Luther King and I don't know whether it's the suffragettes or Gandy or whoever it might be their ideas in their time were received equally horrifically and um now those are things that we all consider to be true and very important as it relates to maybe science or just social issues on equality so with that in mind we have to also be humble to the fact that an idea that might be important might at first offend us it might trigger us it might be counter to the public narrative or or to the current available science but I don't think it should be censored no and I I would say that people listening to this just think about one thing one of the reasons that we seek the truth and greater truths is that a life lived in darkness has no [Music] meaning amen we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're going to be leaving it for and the question left for you is of all the most amazing Superstar people you have met in your life what was the quality that made them Superstars and can it be taught a love for Humanity that was a quality I made them Superstars and whatever they were doing it was to give back to society in some way whether it was entertainment whether it was music whether it was sport but based upon a love for Humanity stands up to be true I just went through a list of superstars that I
know of in my brain and I think that's certainly the case and it's funny because the people that I think of as real Superstars aren't necessarily famous they're not rich they're not anything like that they're just like the best people the ones that I really aspire to be more like but the one that made them stand out for me the one quality that made them extra special in th those particular people um was despite them being so excellent is they had a huge a uh um a wonderful humility about them and they can find you everywhere especially on Twitter big Twitter following um and your books as well I will link your books below in the description for anybody that wants to read them I've these two books in particular the one that I can't pronounce the Poe pey diet a 21-day lifestyle plan lose weight feel great and drastically reduce your risk of type two diabetes and heart disease an a Statin free life a revolutionary life plan for tackling heart disease without the use of statins a two that I'd certainly really really recommend thank you Dr thank you for the work you do the way that you do your work and thank you for having the courage to be a loud counteracting voice in society where we do need counteracting voices I don't think anybody can ever argue with that and the way in which you do it and you're intentions of doing it I think are wonderful um and I think they're a real credit to the two wonderful people that raised you so thank you for your time today thank you for doing the work that you do I'm going to continue following it I follow you on Twitter and I've been following you for many many years I think I believe um and I very much enjoy consuming your information because I know that you don't you have there's a certain fearlessness with you that is going to deliver what is true regardless of consequence and that is a useful source of information to have in my world where I'm I'm trying to advance my thinking and I care more about progress and truth than I do something feeling comfortable so thank I highly recommend everyone go check you out on Twitter as [Music] well ah