Video URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARaqe-0MKmI
Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day that story fascinates me the JFK story is like that has been Oliver Stone's thing I mean he's been following that story he's been chasing it down we talked about on the podcast that his film JFK was essentially 30 years after the assassination and then this documentary that he just released years after his film so he's been chasing this I should catch the documentary seen the film I it's on show um I mean generally we're we're live right we're recording so generally the assassination of presidents it's something which uh you know I've been in prison with people that assassinated sadad and it's oh really yeah these sorts of this Intrigue at the top and the plots um I actually befriended them um I've got a copy of the of a Quran at home signed by one of them as a gift to me my parting gift from from prison but uh the kind of intrigue when you get to that level of intrigue at the top nothing is ever what it seems man I can only imagine you know it's got to be a stressful way to live imagine being a world leader yeah of course and all the the [ __ ] you're dealing with and potential assassination and coup plots and and and part of how you operate has to be one thing one face you present to the public and another thing is what you're really actually doing because you've got all these other people uh especially today with the nature of information Wars attempting to subvert what you're trying to do uh based on your over actions and so you have to truly hide what you're really actually up to you know it's it's difficult to navigate that terrain well not only that but when you operate like that if you're constantly operating in this sort of deception vein like it's got to be hard to know what's true and what's not true because you're kind of you're full of [ __ ] when you're full of [ __ ] I think it becomes more difficult to recognize what's true and what's not true and you don't get to that position unless you're full of [ __ ] in the first place you have to be compromised like they don't let you in like when you find out politicians that earn like $200,000 a year and you find out they're worth $200 million how did that happen and you're
like what is going on well I'll tell you what's going on just looked at Pelosi right yes well that was who I was talking about she's making a lot of money it's wild but it's not from her salary well the my favorite thing was when she was confronted and uh they asked her a question about trading about whether or not you know people that are in Congress and what have you should be able to trade and she takes a sip of water cuz she knows this is going to be a big one yeah you know well listen there was a there was a on Twitter um uh and we can probably return to the question of tech and and speech and censorship but there was this account called Pelosi tracker I don't know if you ever saw it no it's been taken down it was tracking all her traits I was following the damn thing I was really interested to learn from it you know it's good to invest she's investing because that's what they say right you watch you watch her moves and you know you're going to make money why would they take it down it got taken down there was two two accounts one was called Epstein tracker uh and it was following the gillain trial uh was it gillain tracker or Epstein tracker the other was Pelosi tracker both got taken down why yeah who knows man that's why does Twitter do anything man it's so confusing now like I mean Twitter used to be like you would you remember the old days when you would just say like at maid um having a pizza with friends like you know like you would do those things like that's what people would do like off to the movies with my buddies it's a weapon now it's it's a weapon in a hybrid war that we're in unfortunately we're in a hybrid war and uh one of the main fronts in that war is uh is information over the definition of reality and uh in that context if you know whoever defines reality gets to win and Twitter is as a result in that context it's a weapon that is being used to define Reality by molding people's minds that's fascinating to put it that way and what's interesting is the people that are being molded are fiercely defending the rights of those people to mold them yeah that's the best way to do it right well they the the people who are being molded yeah the people that are a part of the hive mind best way to do it I
mean look if I wanted to enslave you I don't think I'd have much of much of a chance physically right I mean I have I I don't know about you but I I've only been training for about a couple of years yeah so the way to do it would be for me to convince you yes use a Jedi mind trick yes these are not the drones you're looking for so you voluntarily follow me that's the way to do it if you're a minority in power you're always going to be a minority if you're in power I want but when we get this conversation started what I want to do for people that don't know you I want to go into your past and you know and your book and who you were in a you know in the previous life and who you are now and why you're recognizing this and you're so fiercely resisting this [ __ ] More Than A lot of people are because a lot of people are scared of blowback like they see what's going on with governments and with lockdowns and all these things and they're they're scared of the blowback and so they're kind of keeping their mouth shut but you're not doing that at all and I think a lot of that has to do with your past I've seen was yeah so will you just give us a like a rundown of what happened with you so I um for your listeners I was born in Essex UK and um had a very normal integrated childhood until I kind of hit my teenage years um and from my teenagers we were the first generation by the way of um Muslims born and raised in the west my parents were immigrants and why that why that's relevant is we uh my age group now I'm 44 we had to navigate a place for Muslims in the west prior to that point of course um that hadn't been done and there's a long history with uh sort of this whole Huntington model of a clash of civilization which is a bit caricature but there's a long history sort of between Islam and the west and and relations and and mixing some of it's good A lot of it involved War With The Crusade so we now born and raised in the west as British citizens now to put that into context in Europe if you look with the US and you have minority communities a lot of the um room for improvement exists in say African-American communities right in Europe the
equivalent is with Muslim communities wherever you go whether it's in Britain with pakistanis and bangladeshis whether it's in France with the north Africans in Morocco uh uh in the Netherlands with North Africans Moroccans in Germany with Turks uh across Europe generally albanians who also majority happen to be Muslim but more cultural not really that religious but across Europe the the the largest minorities are Muslims and so that same question about uh integration uh cooperation um equal opportunities social uh Mobility whereas in the US it applies specifically I don't know say for example with African-Americans and mexican-americans or Latino Americans in the in the in Europe generally and in the UK it's a Muslim question so when I began sort of hit my teenage years we experienced a lot of tension around that and uh there was a lot of racist violence that I experienced growing up with some sort of neonazi racist violence and when I say violence I'm talking um severe severe [ __ ] like machete and Hammer attacks screwdriver attack I've had to watch friendss of mine get stabbed before the age of 16 many of my friends stabbed uh we had running street fights with these guys knives machetes everything I mean this is like a it was really bad um one particular occasion this guy tried to help me I was surrounded by a group of them and uh they all had their big Kebab knives um I thought I was going to die man and then this this guy was just walking past random guy walking past he saw that I was surrounded by these guys and he tried to step in to defend me and what they did is they I was years old they held me back and they basically started stabbing this guy all over his body forced me to watch it and they called him a py lover oh jez and the idea was that he's a traitor to his skin for trying to defend me um so of course I became very angry yeah uh but by the way I I met that guy uh about three years ago he lived he had a punched lung turns out he was with the Army he's a hero for me man he's a hero and uh I put out a public appeal to see if I could get uh reunited with him he wants to stay Anonymous but I met him and he's still alive and he still still lives in the in my hometown he's still you know local the area in my home county but that made me very angry at the same time
if you want to think back the time frame we're talking about early '90s uh the genocide in Bosnia was happening and the bosnians are also Muslim and so we we felt that uh that could come to Britain we felt very isolated we felt very uh uh very vulnerable and so we were looking in that context for some form of belonging feeling rejected from those from society around us uh the guys that the guys that attacked us by the way they would boast about having connections and links with the police and uh turns out to be the case that that there was a problem in those days with the police there's a famous case of the murder of Steven Lawrence in the UK who was uh stabbed to death in a similar way while waiting at a bus stop and his killers were never brought to justice for over 20 years and um there was a government inquiry commissioned into that it's called the mcferson inquiry and it eventually became famous for coining that phrase institutional racism and it was talking about how police were not looking into these sorts of crimes so nobody was ever brought to justice for what happened to us and everything I described was a year before Steven Lawrence was murdered but that became the pivotal case in the UK it became like a George Floyd it a huge except he wasn't you know I know George Floyd had some background this guy had he was clean he was just a a young kid no background he just set a bus stop so in that context we became very angry be uh began looking for belonging and IDE entity outside of the mainstream that we felt rejected us and so at the age of 16 why that's all relevant is um I ended up joining a a revolutionary islamist organization uh I didn't trust Society I didn't trust Authority I didn't trust the West generally uh looking at the genocide in Bosnia with the UN troops one of the uh the most searing memories for me was at sanich where the UN the Dutch un uh soldiers were standing by as as the Bosnian Muslims were killed and put in that mass grave and they didn't have the mandate to intervene so we really didn't trust institutions to defend us whether it was foreign policy or even domestic at home so at the age of 16 I joined this group called which means the party of Liberation and uh it's in a nutshell the before Al-Qaeda and
definitely before Isis this was an organization that wanted a caliphate globally around the world but instead of using terrorism in the conventional means we understand it today blowing things up our purpose our method was to recruit army officers in Muslim majority countries and instigate military coups to try and come to power I joined this group at 16 and I spent um about a decade uh well yeah more just over a decade in this organization I Rose to the leadership in the UK I set the group I exported it from the UK and set it up in uh Pakistan it was part of the first move in the wave that went from Britain to Pakistan to found the group there in that in that vein I ended up recruiting some army officers there in Pakistan as well can I ask you how that happens how do you how do you make contact with the army officers and how could you recruit them and like how would you go about doing that well there's this uh Military Academy in the UK that globally countries send their offices to for training it's called Sandhurst and uh we would because of the Pakistani Community we knew friends who had relatives or whatever that would be coming from Pakistan to study at Sandhurst it's a it's a it's like an Officers Training Academy and then through relatives you you know you get begin conversation and then really the rest of it is what's what's really important is being trained uh in in techniques as to how to uh convince people of your aim so like what what would happen so a lot of that involves around first so we used to say that you have to first destroy before you build and so whatever you believe in at the moment has to be removed before we can replace it with our ideological framework and so if you believe in say you're coming from Pakistan a thing you're going to generally obviously there are exceptions but you're going to have some form of belief in the international order in the International System in uh Democratic governance uh because Pakistan for most of its history has been a democracy and so we'd have to pick apart those ideas first by uh focusing on the flaws and the holes in these eyes to take the International Community very easy to do you got the UN standing by while a genocide is going on in Bosnia and you're speaking to a
Muslim who's from a country that was founded to protect Muslims after partition in 1947 and you know just say look you think you think these institutions are going to protect you when you see what happen in Bosnia so the failure of the international order was something that we could poke to try and make that you know make those fissures bigger um and so a lot of it is uh and we'll get back to this by the way with the debate today with covid but a lot of it was a psychological assault on assumptions that people took for granted and then you pick those apart through discussion you demonstrate how how those assumptions don't stand up to the real world and they require a solution that solution has to be something that fits what the person wants now if you're speaking to a Muslim it's pretty much a given that they don't want genocide against Muslims so we'd go back say take the example of Bosnia we talk about well how do you think Muslims who are blond hair blue-eyed even came to Bosnia in the first place well actually it was through the caliphate which is true it was the Ottomans had you know had the leadership of the Muslim world at the time modern day turkey and the Ottomans used to uh provide protection in that area now that last uh vestage of a CIF fate was destroyed in 1924 after World War I and that's when uh the Muslims who are in modern day Bosnia lost that protection of the Ottoman Empire so if you're speaking to somebody that knows his history which we were trained in so remember I'm 16 I shouldn't be having conversations about the Ottoman Empire in Bosnia Unless somehow I've been you know involved in a form of a a process of a combination of education and indoctrination and it's how to use that Ed education for the purposes of indoctrination that we were trained in so you can you can kind of have those discussions and we ended up recruiting people uh as I say I exported it to Denmark then to Pakistan I was on the leadership in the UK eventually um I went to Egypt to try and uh re reestablish the group there in Egypt um Egypt at the time was under hos Mubarak I was doing a uh a degree at the school of Oriental and African studies it's um soas uh part of the University
of London it's considered um one of the leading uh kind of radical left-wing colleges in the UK and for Arabic is actually one of the best in the in in the world and I was doing law in Arabic at soas and for my Arabic degree I needed to go to an Arab country for my uh language Year my third year so I chose Egypt so that was my ostensible reason for going to Egypt but actually while I was there I began recruiting again for my organization the difference between Egypt and Pakistan Denmark and Britain is Egypt's a dictatorship still is till today whereas Pakistan wasn't um and of course Denmark and Britain wer so in Egypt where I tried to stop you know start building these cells uh recruit people to my organization uh I arrived one day before the 9/11 attacks not knowing of course that was happening and so that that changed the security Paradigm for the whole world if you remember Bush saying that sorry Tony Blair saying the rules of the game have changed uh one 9/11 happened People Like Us who were not you know terrorists in the kind of bombing sense right um so I that's just the difference between say an islamist um to briefly Define it somebody who wants to impose a version of Islam over society as opposed to just the religion of Islam which is a faith an islamist i define and people can differ with these definitions just my definition someone who wants to impose a version of Islam over Society impose a Dogma yeah um but our methods our means were not violent they were more like infiltrating the government and trying to take over from within but once the 911 attacks happened the security kind of uh rules of the game changed uh the Egyptian regime came after us there was a bit of a a cat and mouse Chase I was on the run for a bit in Egypt but uh eventually they raided my house at sort of roughly 3:00 a.m. and they had like machine guns and grenades and everything came in and I was awake at the time because I had I was married and I had one year-old I have a one-year-old he was one at the time I have a son from that previous marriage and I was trying to put him back to sleep uh they ripped him from my arms um they blindfolded me and they uh put me in this van uh took me to their State security headquarters and the the a lot of uh I can go into some of the
detail but a lot of atrocities then happened to us I mean we were we went through quite a horrific experience in the dungeons of Egypt I mean the first thing they did is they took me up in Alexandria where I was living they took me up to the top of a building blindfolding and stood me on the edge of the of the roof uh to try and make me believe that they were going to push over and I had to stand there very still to see if you know takes a bit takes a bit out of you you you can't see anything you're standing at the and I could feel the wind around me oh Jesus but that was just a warmup that was for the purpose of softening me up so that I could I would believe that they're prepared to do anything so that I'm ready to talk so once they put me there then they took me down and they took me into an to see an officer see an officer blindfolded but to to be confronted by a um intelligence officer from the State security and he asked me my story and we were training to say one thing in that context as islamist revolutionaries and the answer was very straightforward and it's what I said I was very uh programmed right so I said my name is Majid naaz and I'm a member of his from Britain and that's all I got to say to you and that's what I said to the officer so he laughed he he's heard that before from us there's a long history of this group in Egypt so uh he said all right let's see what you do next and then uh they put us in this van drove us through the desert still blindfolded uh took us to uh Cairo uh and they took us to the um this building called alz gazola which is the headquarters of the State security internal State security uh for all of uh Egypt took us underground and this is where the real nightmare began uh tied our hands behind our backs with Rags um we were bodies piled on top of each other on the floor in this I don't know what it was I call it a dungeon because it was underground in a basement like structure and then uh that's when the screaming began they they gave us all numbers I was 42 and um from from from that day when we were this was now I think day two uh from that evening they began a roll call we weren't allowed to sleep by the way if we slept and we didn't answer
our name we were beaten and they they went through the numbers in chronological order and so I would hear number one he was called up taken into a separate room tortured and we would hear his screams uh electrocuted and then they they'd say call number two number one is brought back collapses in his spot brings number two number three and they go through everyone is being tortured one by one and of course I have to wait my turn 42 so I've heard 41 other people so number 41 who's next to me there's this is a there's a moment I write about in radical which is the story of all of this it's my autobiography it's called radical and uh this poor guy I still don't know who he is till this day but he turned to me and he was crying because his his turn was next and he said help me I don't know what to do Ian I'm in the same position so I just read some passages of the Quran to him there's a there's a passage about a boy um because Muslims believe everything you know in the um Old and New Testament we believe that's from the same tradition the same God and a bit like the best way I can explain it for an American or a world audience is just as Christianity views Judaism as part of their tradition Islam views Christianity and Judaism as part of our tradition right so there's a story in the Quran about a Christian boy who tried to uh uh prze for monotheism and this Pagan King didn't like him and he put him in a ditch and he burned everyone in this ditch it's called Surah the story of the trench um and it's about suffering in the face of Truth and so I just started uh reciting this passage to him I started reciting this passage um and there's a very specific way of reciting the Quran it soothed him um all I remember him saying to me was you're a good man thank you and then he was taken his number was called he was taken and then eventually he was he collapsed he was brought back and he was just unconscious and my number was called so I had to walk imagine that I had to walk towards this uh uh room where they're going to torture me and um the guy said uh right you're going to have to speak and I had still had my hands tied behind my uh my back but I had managed to to get the rags loose and
I'm not the kind of guy that's going to I mean I I honestly I at that moment I decided I'd rather die than be humiliated in this way and and then also then uh uh telling him a story about my friends you know so because my hands were loose I honestly I decided I'd rather just attack the guy and they're going to have to shoot me dead um but then something unexpected happened um there were four of us from the UK instead of electrocuting me he uh electrocuted my friend who was also in the group with me who's from London who's also in Egypt uh they tortured him in front of me and uh then he said right your turn you have to speak tell us why you're here tell us what what you're doing here in Egypt I gave him the answer I I the stock answer I gave in Alexandri said my name is maid noas I'm a member of his from Britain do what you want and uh by this time my hands were loose but I was still pretending they were still tied and honestly Joe i i people going think this is um this is barbaric but you haven't been in that situation to know what happens to the brain but I took the view that if they touch me I'm just going to bite down on his neck and they're going to have to shoot me dead because I was just going to basically just just attack the guy with my teeth that's all I had uh lucky for me uh for whatever reason he said right I'm going to give you 24 more hours to think about your answer go back to your spot and if you if you don't answer you saw what we did to your friend and we're going to do that to you now this is the fourth day so they took me back to my place uh and then um I was kind of there was some hints that they were going to rape me or whatever um they're talking about oh this one looks you know talking about my physical features and maybe we should treat him in a different way and then I think they were trying to scare me with that too and they they have by the way they were rap they were raping with wives in there they were torturing children in front of their fathers uh just to try and force the father to confess I mean there's just imagine no rules yeah anything is possible and nobody's ever going to find out about it now lucky for me that was the fourth day the British console is meant to make contact within 48 hours so 4 days
they're already late but however they managed to do on that fourth day because I I was a student of Arabic and I could understand I heard a phone ring in the dungeon and one of the officers picked the phone up and I could hear him speaking in Arabic and he said yeah the foreigners are here with me and then I could hear him say yes sir yes sir okay all right today sir and that's when I realized that you know what we might be taken out of here so um I it was it was the case on the uh that evening so I was due to go back to that officer and who'd given me the warning but before I was dued back they sent some uh pickup truck military truck to come and collect the four of us that were from the UK and they took us from there and I I imagine the Ambassador was uh making a big stink they took us from there and instead took us to a prison called ma prison which is where I eventually met the Assassins of Anar Sadat the former prime minister the former president and they put us into solitary confinement for three and a half months roughly um the Egyptians we left behind there the Egyptians continued they continued treating them in a really brutal way those that were arrested with us but we were then put into solitary confinement I was then as a result I was never electrocuted my friend as I said was in front of me he was in the next cell to me and uh after so that cell that we were put into solitary confinement there was no there was no toilet there was no bed bedding or anything it's just a bare concrete cell we had to forgive me but you know I suppose this is your show we can speak like this but we had to [ __ ] on the floor we had to piss on the floor and then they'd come 15 minutes break they come with a bucket and they just wash it down and then we're back on that in that same cell uh three three months or so later we were charged um I remember the charges still in Arabic I can still quote them for you um but the first charge was in which means membership of a of a prohibited organization the second charge was propagation by speech and writing of banned ideas B ideas it was beautiful because that's what convinced amany International to adopt us as prisoners
of conscience the charges now why that beautiful is imagine I'm by the way I forgot to say so I was 24 years old by this time yeah imagine an angry Muslim 24 at the peak of the war and Terror yeah Iraq hadn't yet been invaded But 911 had happened I hated the West I hated what I called the kufar infidels and I existed to overthrow the Western order and I was prepared to die for that I was prepared to be tortured for it and aom amnesty inter naal and they say he doesn't deserve to be in jail for his ideas unless he's committed a crime and we hadn't committed any crime in Egypt all we were doing was speaking about these ideas these kind of revolutionary ideas and because the um Egyptian uh Constitution had been suspended under an emergency uh since the assassination of Anar Sadat in 1981 by the guys I eventually met in that same prison the Egyptian Constitution does protect ideas but it had been suspended in the name of an emergency for over 20 years uh and I'd like to when we get to the current Day come back to the the nature of how emergencies work when they suspend your rights okay so this is they suspended the rights of Egyptians and it was meant to be temporary and that temporary situation lasted over 20 years which is why we ended up in jail for our ideas what was the initial emergency the assassination of the president okay so because of that emergency they used that to justify which I can assure you assassinate assassinating a president is a lot more deadly than the IFR for covid which is 0.0 96% similar to the flu so that was a real emergency where a president was killed and uh it was meant to be temporary the state of emergency existed for over 20 years it's why they were allowed to treat us in that way because they had suspended the rights of their citizens as a permanent thing Amnesty International comes along and says these guys are prisoners of conscience when I learned of that it really really shook me because I had never in my life up until that point and I'm 24 I never received the positive word from any Bastion of Western values any institution right whether it was amnesty governments media and it and it began a process in
me through uh in that time in prison to tr just try and understand why amnesty cared about defending my rights because I knew I didn't care about them we would go around attempting to deconstruct the concept of human rights in order to recruit people to our ideological worldview but here was this organization he knew that I defined them as a a soft Power Enemy we saw human rights organizations as a soft power tool of Western colonialism and so they knew I Define them as a intellectual enemy and yet they were defending me and my right and attempting to help get me out of jail so that began a process and I've said often right where the heart leads the mind can follow so I think it's really important when you're trying to change people's minds and help people that they see an emotional connection first because and we've you know we we've seen this in science right with with neurological patterns I've often spoken to Sam Arris about this that the often you look at the the way people think and actually we think that we are led by our thoughts but actually something happens in the brain prior to us actually even acknowledging what we're doing right so and that brings up whole questions of free will that Sam talks about but here in this context amnesty reaching out to me softened my heart for the first time in my life all I'd ever known up until that point in my relationship with the west and the country in which I was born was violence I mean I've seen more violence than anybody should have seen at that stage um and that was the relationship I had my my relationship with Society was defined through hate and violence and that's all I'd known through my adult years my teenage years and and and onto my early 20s and um we're in jail uh this is when Iraq got evaded uh by Blair and push and Blair of course we were really upset with that um as islamist prisoners we believe this is all part of the war that we were involved in but amnesty continued campaigning for us so what I did is I spent we got eventually got convicted and I served five years uh which in Egypt was men be 3/4 of the sentence but we ended up staying for about four years in jail just under and uh we were released having completed our
full sentence so it's not that amnesty got us out but the mere fact they were campaigning for us so I spent that time in prison reading everything I get my hands on we were eventually let out of solitary confinement and I always having been somebody that appreciated intellectual discussion I saw around me the who's who of political prisoners in MA prison and we had everything from Communists and socialists we had Muslims who had converted to Christianity we had Christians who converted to Islam we had jihadists who' assassinated the president and we had Israeli spies who being accused of being Israeli spies everyone was in this jail wow and we had a joke that under hosy Mubarak in Egypt if you change your mind from anything to anything is a criminal offense because it didn't make sense right you had a Muslim converted to Christianity throw him in jail Christian converting to Islam throw him in jail for for conversion everything any you change your mind on anything and you'd be in jail you're unreliable no so you had well that's the that's the funny thing Mubarak didn't want anyone to think oh right wow don't think just obey so when he heard that you're just tossing and turning too much in your mind he just throw you in jail throw you in jail that guy's too sketchy think about it you got people that assassinated saddat right yes why did they assassinate him in 1981 anra Sadat made a peace treaty with Israel Egypt and Israel's peace is because of that president and the and the and it was military guys that assassinated him uh and they did it because they believe that was treachery they didn't want peace with Israel so it assassinated him right so you can understand okay you got jihadis who believe making peace with Israel is treachery they're in jail but on the other hand this guy I was with him prison as well and he'd been accused of being an Israeli agent threw him in jail too and the guys that prosecuted and convicted the Assassins of Sadat right they were in jail with the Assassins of sadad 20 years later that's the danger of dictatorship literally can just point at anybody you want and go lock them up so I used that opportunity to speak to everyone I had the advantage that we were young they were like the S the Sadat assassins had been in prison
for longer than I'd been alive I was 24 they'd been in jail 25 years so we looked at them and thought wisdom now these guys had also changed their ideology in that time they basically started uh advocating for a more peaceful approach really and a more traditional faith in Islam as opposed to the politicized Dogma what I called earlier islamism yeah so I spent a lot of time with these guys because first of all they had my respect they lived the life that I had started on right but they'd also then come back from it one he one of the their names was uh Dr Tark he managed to become a doctor through his time in prison in studying the other guy was salahi um so I spent a lot of time talking to them and others uh Egypt's largest Jihadi group at the time was called G islamia their leader was in prison as well what was their Tipping Point like once they were incarcerated after the assassination what led them to change the way they viewed the world I mean because you would imagine that people one of the things that we always talk about with the prison system in America is you're just Mak making better criminals you're making more hardened criminals you're introducing them to other hardened criminals and there's very little Rehabilitation that's right so what caused these men to change their perspective so the this is that's the general rule and um I'll get to in a second we eventually we also do that kind of Rehabilitation work in the UK with uh Muslims convicted of high level terrorism uh in fact the brother my friend who Who's Who I'm working with on that was going to be W here with me today but some paperwork didn't work out with his uh situation so he's not but that it what happened in Egypt is the exception there was a process called M which means the revisions and they sent in a whole bunch of theologians to speak to the leaders of these Jihadi groups and eventually over a process a long period And I imagine a lot of carrot and stick the leadership of these groups in particular the largest group as I say was known G Islam which is not the group that assassinated an Sadat the president that was known as Al Jihad islami or Islamic Jihad but the other group which was larger was known as G Islam or the Islamic
group uh that group's leadership began this process of revision and eventually they they came to what they called which means a ceasefire they declared a ceasefire with the government based upon theological revisions and as a reward for their their revisions of their uh of their violence they were put into this prison where the political Wing were rather than the violent Wing right and so because we were the political Wing they were then deemed as being safe to be put with the political side of it as opposed to the terrorist side so then I got to mix with these guys and I spent all that time reading their revisions in Arabic debating it with them uh speaking to the other prisoners like there was this liberal presidential candidate called aan n who was thrown in jail because he was a presidential candidate he stood for election against Mubarak threw him in jail uh they used some corruption charges on him but everyone knew that he was because he stood as president and he wasn't an endorsed candidate he was in jail so I spoke to people that had a liberal ideology um revised islamist ideology communist prisoners spoke to everybody and then did a lot of my own reading and one of the interesting things for me was reading in particular um English literature read a lot of tolken a lot of all well uh I even read the Harry Potter books in a Jihadi jail wow and the interesting thing with talken and Orwell in particular is there's a lot you can learn from those stories uh that relate to our situation today all a lot of Heroes Journey stuff precisely yeah yeah so and then on top of that I read a lot of Islamic theology a lot of I continued with my Arabic studies and the more I learned the more I studied the more tolerant I became and the more the Dogma that I had adopted began to unravel and this is you know of my dialogue with Sam it became an Amazon film it's explained in that a lot of it is in the book with that that I did with Sam publish by Harvard which was my second book but in essence the more I learned about my tradition and my Heritage I was ignorant of that because I wasn't born with that Heritage I was born in you know in dislocation from it but sitting with those who had studied this and those who had spent many years thinking about this the more I learn the
more open I became and because amnesty had initially opened my heart I began looking for Alternatives now what I didn't want to do was leave the group or even announc leaving the group while in jail I I have a bit more dignity than that I didn't want anyone to think I've done it because I'm in prison and someone's pressured me so I left Prison still a committed member of the group on paper got back to the UK and even did some interviews as a member of the group but within that year um it became very apparent to me that I was living a contradiction and I could no longer maintain in that fervor this sort of the Dogma that I uh that I adopted I had to un you know I'd unpicked it in my mind in such a way that it was no longer sustainable for me to uh to to remain on the leadership and then the group I was with offered me directly to become the leader in the UK So within that week I had a choice to make either I live a lie and I lead this organization while no longer believing that this is good for anyone's future uh or I resign so I unilaterally and openly announced my resignation from from the group and also my abandonment of my previous ideology in the favor of a more um traditional and organic understanding of my Heritage what how was that met within the group out kind outrage yeah uh my marriage fell apart and my entire identity up until that point had been defined by families and friends around this uh ideology and organization all of that imagine you you've been plucked out of your reality and you have to reconstruct yourself from nothing but on top of that you've just come out of jail the war on terror is at its peak Tony Blair is prime minister and Bush Jr is President so the world hates you because everyone thinks you're the enemy you've just lost all your friends and you have to build yourself back up again from nothing with nothing how did you maintain your resolve during that period because I've got to imagine the pull to go back to your old ways is probably very strong because there's Community there and even though you had come to this realization jail and through all your reading there had to been a great pull to try to bring you back to the old life this is why today um when talking about contemporary debates the The
Stance I've taken against tyranny and I won't mince my words on it this is why it's so insulting it's seriously ignorant where some voices have come out and said oh Magid noas has become radical he's an radicalized sorry I use the word radical myself radicalized he's become an extremist again these people have absolutely no idea what extremism is they have no idea what it takes to inoculate yourself against that before anyone else was even talking about counter extremism they have no idea the inner discipline it takes to pull yourself out of that and lose everything what was that like I mean it was it was incredibly difficult but what gets what got me through it and what gets me through it today to to to draw that similar analogy what got through it then is you have to have a belief in why you're doing what you're doing and I I went seeking and I found people who were far better than the people I was following who were also consistent to my Heritage um and yet believed in finding what we have in common and bringing people together rather than dividing people um there are again back to teachers yeah spiritual guides one of the first things I needed to land on some form of spiritual and humanitarian uh platform so I went to Sufi shakes who practice to soul for or purification of the soul of the inside to try and make sure that you're on a firm foundation and I went looking and I got very lucky that um one spiritual uh uh guide shik Ali who I spoke to early on and he said listen you're going to go on a journey trust the journey and the important thing is we stay in touch but trust the journey and as long as your intention is good you will land on your feet and I remember one of the things he said to me he said we're in this situation now where it's almost like this Muslim Western divide as I say the war and Terror was ongoing Blair was prime minister Bush was president and he said to me just imagine you're like Moses in the court of pharaoh and you're there and you're going to speak to these people to try and make them understand what you've as to why you pulled back from that Brink to try and help them understand that war isn't the way forward with this the whole war on terror discourse the
whole Paradigm so I spent the next 10 years of my life on that guidance given to me by shik Ali attempting to from the inside working with the machine I'm now going to call it the machine right the system working with that machine in an attempt to be like Moses in the court of pharaoh uh let them see through my example what can be rather than what the bad things that you think are the good that can be right so I met with Blair I met with bush in his house in Texas I met Blair a few times I've met with PM Cameron met with Trudeau uh I've met with a lot of these people in an attempt to show them there's another way what I realized over the course of that attempt and we can get into some of this detail but what brings me here today is 10 years of being an islamist revolutionary and then 10 years years of attempting to work on on that high level in governments in that machine to try and soften the power of that machine soften its own self-inflicted blows such as the invasion of Iraq uh such as you know arbitrary kill lists assassinating people without due process to try and end that war and instead bring about a dialogue unfortunately the machine I was trying to work with I don't believe it's any longer possible to work on the inside and Achieve that aim how so Mission creep Mission creep yeah so I so you may know but for your listeners I'll say that after leaving that organization I set up a group called quum in an attempt to be that you know what the guidance that was given to me and and I don't think I'd be where I am without that guidance you ask about how I did it you have to have strong people around you and you have to have an understanding of who you are and not lose that and it's very difficult but 10 years I'm trying to work with that machine to say look yes there's a uh I can help you on the ideological side of how to how to speak to those Muslims who have gone down that path but on your side there is some responsibility you've got to respect the civil liberties values that you claim you're fighting for so if you're saying they hate our democracy they hate our freedoms that's not going to wash if you're invading countries if you say they hate our democracies they hate our
freedoms that's not going to wash if you're torturing people or you're Outsourcing your torture to dictators that you support financially now this is true with the UK as well as the US right it's now established not it's not what I'm saying now isn't any longer in dispute but it used to be when I first started talking about it there's a guy called Abdul Hakim belhaj from Libya who it's now been established that the British um authorities outsourced his torture and that's now not even in dispute anymore and they relied on the intelligence that they knew they got through him being tortured in a third country it's called extraordinary rendition when Western countries Outsource torture to dictators and then rely on that intelligence to make their next move and my point is if you're fighting for your values right Joe if you're if you're reacting because you're a father and you want to defend your children the last thing you're going to do that is consistent with that is harm other people's children if you're fighting to defend children so you're saying to me you're you're fighting for your values but then don't Outsource torture don't invade countries don't arbitrarily kill people from the skies without due process like a 17-year-old American Anar oi's son who was bombed under Obama's presidency in Yemen because they wanted a father they knew the 17-year-old was there next to him and they decided to bomb anyway and the thing is if you start behaving like this of course every action causes a reaction and there's me in the middle trying to trying to say these guys are wrong but this is also wrong yes now that machine it took me a while 10 years of attempting to try and you know reign in the excess on both sides of course doesn't earn you any friends can I ask you more about the process like how do you go about meeting these people like how does this set up like how do you meet Trudeau how are you meeting bush how is this uh how was this facilitated at the time I was the only one publicly speaking about any of this and so they were all desperate to hear from me cuz you were someone who was radicalized at one point in time and had converted over and they trusted you every single one of these was an invitation I didn't ask for any of these
and how did they know of you uh I when I left um hisb um so it's it's interesting because we forget what the media World used to like with the internet today I did all the kind of you know the prime time so I did in the UK BBC News night with Jeremy Paxman here I did CBS 60 Minutes um Larry King so what used to be the Prime Time Shows they're not anymore right but um so people would would would see this guy on the on the you know on the CBS 60 Minutes who the hell is this guy who's just like he's been in jail he's now speaking against this stuff so I would be invited I was invited to push his home wow um in fact what was that like well I'll tell you a story because uh he sat me down and like you you did he said well tell me about yourself and I got to the point of um when I said oh they tortured Us in prison and he said um I opened my book with this story by the way he said stop right there I said all right okay and if you remember Bush was that whole waterboarding and redefining torture right yes so he says stop right there so I stopped and he looked at me in the eyes he said how do you define torture wow what was your impression of him as a person when I looked him back Square in the eyes I said you know electrocution on the teeth and genitalia and he said yeah that's torture carry on now the interesting thing with bush is very well I found him to be very personable but then you know that really doesn't mean much when you're in in charge of a country that invades another country but oneon-one he was very easy to talk to did he seem slow no not at all right no was that an act do you think that kind of down homes a Shucks what I've learned is look at media narratives today mhm yeah and it's so often the impression we have in media uh is a narrative built up and especially in those days before we had decentralized media it was a monopoly on how you define somebody and so whatever the media defined Bush as actually one-on-one in person speaking to him he wasn't that at all and so it must have just been a narrative built up around him he was very personable very easy to talk to very Alert in conversation more so than most world leaders that I've spoken to isn't it fascinating that
today he is thought of as a reasonable Republican and he's thought of as like boy if only George W Bush was running for president like we think about him with the standards of behavior if everything has shifted and and Trump threw a monkey wrench into the gears that [ __ ] up the machine so hard that they look back with with Nostalgia of the days of bush but I can remember when Bush was president the hate that people had for him it was like it was palpable and then when we invaded Iraq then it changed because after 9/11 then he had given this big speech and he had you know he stepped up in this way where we felt comfortable like fin we have a leader we've been attacked we have to unite as a nation this is a real leader and he gave a real speech and even Democrats were saying yes we have a real president one thing that's interesting about those years is before um the invasion of Iraq Muslim Americans used to generally vote Republican and the reason was largely again there's always exceptions the reason was largely because of the social conservative Family Values Muslims are very socially conservative believe in family uh believe in community and all all the all the debates you hear today about liberals and and the whole kind of you know um LGBT and all that stuff you can imagine coming from a religious background Muslims are a lot more conservative on that stuff they used to vote for Republican party and then Iraq happened and they switched to the Democrats and I think we're in a moment now where that switch is going back from the Democrats back very slowly back to the Republicans again and Trump's last uh election result demonstrated that Trend because despite Trump's presidency and um I often get accused of all sorts of things look I have been on the streets in London protesting president Trump when he floated the Muslim ban because I'm married to a beautiful American woman and I would I was worried about being banned coming coming into America with my background it actually meant something right so I was on the streets protesting Trump so despite me you know what I'm about to say I don't want anyone to misinterpret and suddenly our mag is the Trump support I I'm tired of
people putting words in my mouth they haven't lived my life they don't know why I think what I think but having protested trump it is interesting to see the results that he got in these elections his share of the Muslim vote went up and his share of the African-American vote went up not down this last 2020 election yeah and I I think that's the beginning of something that's happening where people on the social stuff these communities and the same for Latino votes by the way these communities I think they're beginning to prioritize uh their social conservative once more because when you look to foreign policy there's not really too much that Biden redeems himself on so I think that that vote is going to switch back again but yeah these these guys um I attempted for about 10 years through my then organization quilliam to attempt to pretty much has happened to me on the islamist side to attempt to try and soften some of that hard edge of the war and how was that met with bush he was Charming but of course it wasn't ever going to be Bush it was going to be the people around him right what was his perspective on what you were saying the last two years of the Bush presidency I think they really began getting to grips with some of this and again that's not a popular thing to say and I remember the time is those last two years they began realizing that that this has to be more of an ideological and intellectual conversation and not a physical War you can't win right right in this war on there was no way anyone was going to win and so they were stuck in this situation where it was many years deep into the war and realizing that they had done everything that they were trying to avoid we had had that one Desert Storm war and I think people had come under the impression that if we were to invade a country it would be very quick and very easy we had this very right American Centric idea of what would go on in a war and because of that it made us so much more willing to enter into Wars it's insane it's insane if if a foreign army occupied America would you just sit back and let them stay here for 10 I mean come on no man worth his salt is going to sit there and watch a foreign army in
their if anyone invaded Britain I'd be the first to say sign me up where do I join no one is just going to let foreign troops in their land right so but this madness was brought about because back in those days Bush didn't even know the difference between Sunni and Shia Muslims right that it was just pure ignorance that the the foreign policy neoconservative machine was Hoodwinked by this guy called chabby in Iraq Who convinced them that if you invade everything's going to be honky Dory Iraq is going to blossom into this democracy all that ended up happening is 60% of Iraq was Shia you end up creating this satellite of sphere of influence for Iran because Iran is is Shia origin country and it ended up having this disproportionate influence in Iraq as a result and you end up with a situation today I mean it's a mess when you think back to the this man trying to convince the Bush Administration that everything was going to be fine it was going to Blossom in with democracy what do you think was his motivation do you think ultimately he knew that the Shia and the Sunni would go to battle and there would be a massive conflict and that it would destabilize the region do you think he was aware of that or do you think they were operating on ignorance or do you think they were operating under this premise that they were going to get to control the natural resources and it was worth it financially and they would sort it all out well you know individual intentions aside if you look to Cheney if you look to ramsfeld and if you look at this guy chelby who was from the Iraqi National Congress and and if you look at everything that happened since then and the behavior in Iraq and and Beyond it's definitely not about bringing democracy Now the jury's out for me is it oil is it natural resources is it strategic positioning um it's definitely not what the reason that we were told and it certainly wasn't weapons of mass destruction that was all built on a lie and that's also come out since uh the do you think they knew about the lie for sure how many people do you think knew about like when they were broadcasting it on CNN weapons of mass destruction we have to invade Iraq who do you think knew that that was not remember Coen po yes I'm quite sure he knew he was speaking [ __ ] God that's
so hard to believe yeah that's so hard to believe cuz he's so admired and you know when you when you have an an example of a man who is a distinguished military career and then goes on to be a distinguished politician he's one of the best examples we've ever had but you remember he was opposed to it for a long time and then he gave that one speech I think it was at the UN yes and I think that's the point that he he knew what was going he was opposed to it he didn't want to follow this he had a a vial or something and then somebody gave him something and then he said all right you know and and I think when he did that that speech yeah I think he knew in his heart something's not right what was the vial what did he have I can't remember but it was used as evidence right yes what we've had since in the UK is an inquiry and they found that Tony Blair pretty much you know they all knew that something wasn't right with this intelligence they were given and this 15 minutes thing it just wasn't right you know and the guy the guy that exposed it one of our scientists in the UK 15 minutes thing that Saddam can can uh strike within 15 minutes yeah yeah and there's a guy who in particular with the weapons of mass destruction now again caveat Saddam is no picnic right yes I mean the man has gassed his own people he he was he's the Iraqi equivalent of mabarak that did what he did to us in Egypt and his sons were the most evil I mean look again people think I'm going to defend this isn't about defending Sadam this is true the first the first death in our organization my former group was in Iraq one of our members was tortured to death by Saddam we were attempting to overthrow Saddam too right so this is no favoritism to Saddam Hussein coming from me what I'm saying is that you don't go in into war based on a lie and this guy called Dr Kelly in the UK he was the scientist uh from our whatever our defense sector who exposed this lie he turned out dead couple weeks later no one knows what happened to him but he's dead so it's just all weird right but looking died of what they found him dead in his car I think it's officially it was suicide whatever who knows yeah I mean I don't know was Epstein suicide I say no what you it doesn't look like it does it I get very uncomfortable when people say he did
commit suicide that's a bit weird isn't it well I started asking them questions like why do you think that like did you look at the autopsy did you ever hear Michael badon speak about it where he talks about marks at the bottom of his neck which indic he was strangled do you did you hear about the broke breaking broken bones rather in his neck like that don't exist normally when people hang themselves they usually are only from someone being strangled yeah there's a desire the camera thing the security guards conveniently sleeping like there is so much it's all strange it but it's in front of everybody's face watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat Tada and you're like holy [ __ ] if the LIE is big enough right it's is a good one though I mean it's it's quite extraordinary that they were to pull that off they were able to pull that off in front of everyone's eyes well I mean I don't know if they've pulled it off I I'm not so sure people deep down really really truly believe that that's that I mean everyone I think realizes is more than meets the eye with that yeah I think so too want to speak about it but it's gone on long enough that I think it's going to be a part of the past yeah and people are just going to go what happened to him who knows what happened to Kennedy who knows like I just said with Dr Kelly right yes who knows who knows but what we have learned from that is that it's easy to manufacture um consent around something that isn't true for foreign policy purposes it was done with Iraq and my whole thing was how do we stop that happening again right that's what I was trying to do with with bush with all of them when but when you all the way through to Cameron what what kind of dialogue did you have with bush in terms of like trying to convince him to take a different approach well so as I say in these last two years they were listening so I met with um secretary cherto who founded the homeland security uh he used to be a judge and we would work very closely with Homeland Security and that entire group and what happened was if you recall so those last two years then Obama got elected and as always just as we felt we were make beginning to make progress I mean one of my long my bug
bear has long been we have to shut gu hanama Bay down this idea that that we can throw people in jail for years and years and years over decades with no charge right it started with Jihadi prisoners you move to Syria it moved from Jihadi prisoners to their wives and their children now so there's just been a Jailbreak in Syria an Isis attempted jailbreak now there's a bit there's a bit of detail to that story that's more interesting than the fact that Isis in the first organized attack for many many years since the fall of their so-called Islamic State um have demonstrated that they've regrouped because they had a for frontal assault on this jail but that's not what interests me and I think that the uh Kurdish forces have retaken it just yesterday what interests me is the detail in this in this little um story and that is that it turns out that there were hundreds of children in this jail children born to Isis fighters who nobody wanted to take care of so they threw them in this adult Jihadi prison hundreds of children some of whom died in this attempted jailbreak so we've gone from and this is where when the Overton window shifts in that way when you think ah Bush's years if only our value system has shifted so much to a point we are now living with this idea that our states and our allies can throw children in jail for years with some of the most dangerous people on the planet and it went from jihadis in Guantanamo to in Syria now to their wives and children including by the way west W citizens so this jailbreak some of the kids that were killed 16y Old 17y olds uh Western citizens Australians you know and others American as an American kid in the Times newspaper why were they in the prison because they were taken there as kids by their Jihadi parents and nobody wants to do no Western Government Credit to America under Trump you guys took back all your foreign foreign fighters from Isis Britain hasn't done so nor have most European took back all our foreign fighters who were Americans who went to join Isis yeah they're now back in the yeah they're back and you know you bring them back and if there's a crime to answer for you put them on trial but what you haven't done what America hasn't done is say you know what I don't give a damn they might be
American but they can stay in Syria and even if they're sentenced in Syria say they finished their time where do they go right so that's what's happened is nobody so there's camps there are entire camps they're just internship camps concentration camps or intern camps like alal camp alal in Syria where there's women and children kids from babies and they're growing up and they're having they're giving birth in these prisons and they just no one's charged them or convicted them of anything so they're essentially being raised in these prisons they are born and raised in prisons Jesus Christ now you go from Guantanamo to that and I'm going to bring you to another stage right we're talking about the Overton window of acceptability Shifting we've got a home secretary in the UK right now called pretty Patel she then suggested that what do you do with um these boat people that come over from France and they're trying to cross the English Channel undocumented migrants they're Landing in brit what do you do with them she said I know what we can do with them arrest them and then put them in a camp in Rwanda so you've gone from we've gone from arbitrarily interning jihadis to arbitrarily interning their wives and their children to now arbitrarily interning anyone who's undocumented in these camps that's not the kind of world I want to see going forward it's it's like that movie elisium right yes that's not the kind of world I want to see going forward so this is the kind of thing that I was upset with in that machine and I'm trying to work in the the machine to say what you guys are doing is making the problem worse with this kind of behavior power brute force does not fix your problems and these conversations with bush in particular like what was that like how did he respond to this so so Bush was one meeting and after that one meeting I was able to speak to the administration and as I say so for the last two years I felt we felt we were beginning to make progress Obama gets in and then they want to reinvent the will and a lot of people when they look at Obama they think a great president again I'm going to mince my words and I don't want anyone to say a see Magid is this or that guys I you got to understand I
didn't even come from this system I wanted to overthrow the whole thing Obama and Bush together I was anti-democracy full stop so this is not about me supporting Bush supporting Obama supporting Trump supporting anyone I'm looking at this from the outside and seeing what's going wrong Visa this specific debate yeah and speaking objectively about it regardless of whether you're left wing or rightwing so Obama comes in and this man launches more drone strikes than bush has a kill list which Bush never had that is unaccountable that kill list he made including American citizens was not accountable to Congress so on the on the physical War side he basically did even more than Bush did with his assassinations with his um NSA spying uh with his um military approach to solving problems with his drones more drone strikes than Bush ever conducted he just ratcheted up the military side of this and uh we were then when Obama became president my work was for a long time ostracized from the Obama administration because of this point and then where he should have done something like the rise of Isis completely useless so the your work was ostracized because you were working towards peace in a less brutal approach and he was conducting drone strikes and surveillance they just didn't want to hear that hear and they but they knew your position and did you eventually get to meet with him not him not him wow I met I've met I met Hillary Clinton I've met madin Albright but I didn't meet Obama did you ever meet anybody they smell like sulfur what any of those people like they're evil this is an evil person this is for sure from Straight From Hell so um anyway just [ __ ] around good but you met Hillary Clinton you met George Bush who else did you meet inside the organization on the US side um mine orright secretary shov when he was head of the Homeland Security Department was any one group or one Administration more open to your ideas well the same thing happened It's usually the case right it takes six years last two years of the Obama Administration like the last two years of bush they began listening to us and then of course Biden uh sorry Trump comes in yeah now the interesting thing is again the whole Isis problem was playing out under Biden uh under Obama
sorry yeah but what what I began witnessing is I'm going to call so that machine I'm going to call it Mission creep you've got to a situ ation now under Biden where even those that who are Trump supporters who question the US election and its you know transparency are now being defined as domestic extremists or domestic terrorists and this is where I have to exit because I'm I'm saying okay hold on you guys first of all you have no idea what extremism is you have no idea what terrorism is and if you're going to weaponize that language and start applying it onto people that question an election right I cannot be a part of that so I shut quilliam down unilaterally just shut the thing down I will not be used to to stigmatize Trump voters as domestic extremists extremism terrorism is a very specific thing and you're going to it's like racism you disagreeing with me isn't racist right but that's how it's being used often these days right and you're going to use that people like me that has to actually Dodge Hammer attacks machete attacks screw driver attacks watch Friends get stabbed over that thing called racism I will stop you misusing that word because I know that if the boy cries wolf then when some little kid like me is trying to run away from the real racist no one's going to believe them would you categorize people like the January 6th attack at at the very least there's some amongst them that are extremists there was people that showed up at the capital with zip ties I mean and they were looking for politicians there are some amongst them that most certainly were extremists absolutely that's like there's some among Muslims that were but you see the concern though from the administration that there at the very least there's the beginnings of something that could be absolutely awful yeah and that's where you've got to be accurate in your language right but there I think that's the problem right that they they use hyperbole they use exaggeration and also they use agent provocators precisely that conversation where Ted Cruz was speaking to the woman from the FBI I'm sure you've seen that yeah yeah where she said have you ever incited has the agency incited violence I can't answer that yeah when when she
rattles off a bunch of things that she can't answer you're like hey there's supposed to be a real [ __ ] clear answer to all those questions it's supposed to be no no we don't do any of that stuff because that stuff's illegal yeah ENT entament is not legal in the UK but it still is here and it gets used often it gets often we you know we know there were certain people in that crowd that were with law enforcement yes and they were behaving less than admirably should with intelligence agencies yeah and it seems like there was some people that had a vested interest in this going sideways yeah and I think it was a tool to sort of label the administration as being even more awful than they already thought it was but you know it's like it's like um you're not vaccinated right no right doesn't so I stop using labels antia right just to try and um to to pigeon hole you before you even speak right so we've got to be careful with language because it's a weapon right the antiva thing is a big language right so it's the same with the US elections and it's the same with Muslims and terrorism and I began realizing that this language was being weaponized for the purposes not of achieving a solution to the problem we're attempting to fix but for politics and and I thought you know what the problem here is I'm going to be instrumentalized my language my work is going to be instrumentalized and so I had to get out and do what I'm doing from the outside in these sorts of conversations instead there's no way I could remain part of that phenomena I mean look Joe you asked me about who won Bush V Gore in Florida till this day I'll say you I think Gore won does that make me an extremist now obviously Bush became president obviously I have to deal with that reality and accept it yeah but if you ask me what's my opinion uh Bush's brother was governor there was something going on with the Chads or whatever you call them wasn't there something going on with John kery too yeah something Weir yeah now I've got a right I've got a right to question Bush V Gore just as a trump voter has a right to question Biden V Trump you know I I think you do have a right and I also think there's an issue where it's fun to think in elections rigged there's a there's an excite I don't want Fun's a bad word
there's an excitement that attaches to it that's akin to conspiracy theories it's akin to people that go looking for UFOs yeah yeah but I wouldn't go so far to say rigged my my questions were more you know the time some people do think it's riged and that's what's exciting to them yeah do you Remember The Time Magazine piece yeah which which piece the the piece that explained the the wording it used was like there's a cabal of well organized financed people that saved democracy on that day of the election no that's right that's right that's that's what I'm talking about right that that leads to questions sneaky talk right it lead and they use the word cabal yes right so as somebody who was we fortified the elction that's the word they used fortified right so as somebody who at the time was a broadcaster on a talk show on mainstream UK radio it's my job to say what the heck is this yeah right so I didn't want to be a part of what I very clearly I saw as is now happening with the vax debate was a weaponization of language an instrument instrumentalization of the of those activists that are there to try and fix the problem for political purposes yes so I'm like listen you know what I've done my bit here I Tred to be the Moses in the court of pharaoh I've gone back to my spiritual guide who was there originally bit like a Yoda figure we do a lot of work by the way on um as I say Muslims convicted of high level terrorism offenses and um work with them on physical training MMA fighting actually and spiritual guidance to try and get them back to a solid foundation less minus the hate um so there's a a guy from Chicago there's a few in the UK these are peoples of leaders of the terrorism Wings in prisons like belmarsh and um they've you know it Rehabilitation is a very difficult thing to do and actually it's the exception not the norm but where it where you have got that exception that's why it's so valuable that's why it's so powerful so I want to continue with my brother Osman Roger shik ali uh to do this kind of work working outside of my media work outside of my um you know my uh activism for civil liberties I will keep up on the uh Rehabilitation prison Rehabilitation side but more direct more one-on-one try to work with the system try to work with that machine and the
problem is that the mission creep it didn't just stop with by the way with the warrant Terror but you look at that with the covid you look at whatever emergency props up I've come to the conclusion that there are some nefarious uh factions out there that will seek to use this emergency to increase state power yeah this these conversations that you had did you make any progress was there ever a moment where they implemented any of your ideas or or took it into consideration and and used that information upon making new decisions like was what kind of dialog were you able to have with them progress with the public progress in the messaging definitely progress in humanizing people that come from my background and showing that actually there is a different way yes progress with policy I I'm not very happy what was their motivation for meeting you then like why why would they want to sit down and talk to you like say if Hillary Clinton sat down and talked to you why Trudeau sat down and talk to you so so the best example I can give for this is like why did Sam want to talk to me who prior to that was very very much in that kind of world where there's a problem with Islam yeah I met Sam at a debate in New York uh called it's an intelligent Square debate where I was arguing for the motion Islam is a religion of peace and um Ayan and Douglas Murray both now my friends were arguing against that motion and I met Sam at the dinner afterwards now what happened with Sam is up until that point he'd been being attacked by whatever like the Ben afflick example yeah on on the bill Mar show as being an an anti-muslim a racist now take that example put it to governments governments are ultimately very sensitive to public opinion and you launched this war on terror it gets revealed that the whole Iraq thing was built on a fabrication governments are quite sensitive to the idea that actually they are coming across as anti-muslim and they've got strong Muslim minorities in their countries you need to fix that problem somehow and they were desperate for a solution so they would reach out to me and I think part of it was Optics honestly uh I think that also the people on a junior level I think genuinely probably wanted
to help but policy doesn't get set at that junior level and even when you speak to the heads of state I mean how much I don't know how much of Canada's policy right now is Trudeau right versus whichever faction he's with that is in power what do you think I think it's more the latter so it's not just any it's not just one man it can't be right no it it can well it's also when you see their narrative shift and what they say in terms of like mandate and things that they're going to implement we wouldn't do that and then that's the norm like what what do you think is what's what's the main factor behind behind like when you become I don't know anything about cidis politics but if you become the president of the United States one of the weirdest things about the job is that it's the most important job in the entire country if not the world and we have new people doing it yeah and we have a popularity contest to elect the new person to do it and you could see through Trump you don't even have to have experience in government no experience you don't have to have been a mayor or a governor or a senator nothing that kind of reinforces the the notion that there's a there's a faction who are meant to support that person right behind the scenes who have the experience you call that the bureaucracy the Civil Service uh that that's why I believe it's never just about that one person of course you know and unfortunately what what we're witnessing at the moment suppose we can come to this later but what happens when that faction is no longer serving the interests of the values the country is meant to be built on right um then you have a situation where the state is no longer serving the people which is what I believe we're in at the moment the state is no longer serving the people now this Mission creep you experienced this during the Bush Administration you exper so you feel like with every Administration it keeps getting deeper I mean best example is that guonan example I spoke you through right it went from arbitrarily interning the jihadis who were meant to be like very dangerous people and now we're putting kids in jail right who are kids of the jihadis who were born as you know either taken as three four five year olds or born in the prison and their
wives and everyone's like uh no one wants them back right now you go to Camp a hall in Syria full of wives and children and they're just running around these camps and they're in prison it's a camp some of them born there some were 2 3 4 years old and they've grown up in there just imagine that man horrifying you know I mean this is the stories we hear about North Korea we're horrified about that yeah we're doing it yeah that's terrifying so that's Mission creep for you that's the That's a classic example of Mission crep to a point where it's become politically acceptable for a UK Home Secretary to say we're going to do the same to undocumented migrants now that's a problem we have to fix by the way our borders we've got to work out a solution that's Humane to that problem and it does require a solution and I do recognize that um open borders aren't practical well our situation is even stranger because we scoop everybody up put them at the border and then depending on what you believe distribute them throughout the country yeah and on either buses or however they're doing it yeah now if that is true if they're just allowing people to just come into the country on documented it's like you have to wonder like what's the motivation behind that and what is also the motivation about this push to try to allow undocumented people to vote yeah it's like are you letting people into the country as a bribe so that they'll votee for the people that let them into the country versus the people that wanted to secure the the borders and build the wall so are you yeah are you essentially stalking your pond you know you're bringing in more people that are going to go with your agenda and is and they're well there's all this thing in this country this this massive contradiction right where you can't have someone need to have a driver's license or identification to vote cuz that's racist but you can have them need to have a driver's license or identification to show they've had proof of vaccination yeah yeah but you can have someone come in from across the border and not check them for vaccination not vaccinate them and not check to see if they have covid it's crazy right but you can this is what I mean by politicization of all these
debates it's so inconsistent and it's so they're they're both simultaneously existing from the same people where they're they're espousing one thing that literally contradicts the other thing why would you do that though why would why would any individual give a reason for doing thing a and then and then ditch that reason and do exactly the opposite for thing B it shows you that's not the reason well one of the reasons why I really wanted to talk to you is because I think your perspective is so much different than anyone else is because of your because when you were radicalized because of your time in prison and because of the incredibly rational way you pursue truth and the way you discuss things now I've seen your BBC program and I've seen you give talks you have a very clean and rational way of addressing and breaking down all these processes that are in place that cause people to behave a certain way you understand it because you are radicalized yourself as well you understand the Mind play that I think is often times it's known of but not discussed and certainly not understood deeply like you do and I think that is the key to all of us understanding what's going on right now that there's a lot of panic there's a lot of moral outrage and a lot of virtue signaling and a lot of signaling to the tribe but then there's also these forces that have been moving in play as what you call Mission creep and this is an opportunity for them to push even further in this general direction and I don't think many people people are aware of that and I think they're looking at it in terms of what their ideology supports whether their ideology is Prov vaccination or their IDE ideology is Pro open Borders or Pro close whatever it is like people are locked into a pre-arranged predetermined group of ideas and opinions that you have adopted that you will support and it's become almost like a religion yeah and religions the problem with Rel the the term religion is we we always think of it involving a deity and it doesn't have to involve a deity it can have the ideas become the deity the the the signaling to the group becomes a deity yeah I think you know that more than anyone well this brings us to contemporary times um after shutting quilliam down um
just there was a bit of an overlap but I primarily became a talk show host on a UK mainstream radio station uh and we had call-ins as well and Co struck and I had to take a view on it now I'm double jabbed and the reason I am is right at the beginning I gave the benefit of the doubt to the narrative to the authorities telling us what we needed to do right at the start and I thought you know what um I'm not antiac in in principle so fine you know I had no reason to question any of it what happened is um once they implemented this emergency law they ditched all of our rights in the UK under this Corona virus emergency act now I've seen that before that's why I said we're come back to emergency I've seen that story play out before and the problem is the minute the government takes your rights there are still blowback legislative blowback from the war on terror that we still haven't got rid of patriot act in the US in the UK the right of silence is now in any Port of Entry or exit in the UK Heath thr airport shipping Port it's now a criminal offense to stay silent if a counterterrorism investigation is conducted on you the terrorism act 2000 has criminalized your right to silence so if you are in investigated or interviewed by someone and you choose to be silent they just lock you in jail for that it happened to me so when I got out of prison the terrorism act 2000 was already in place I was released from prison in 2006 I was interrogated under this power and I was informed directly by a police officer your silence is a criminal offense as is refusing your right for us to take your DNA so they took my DNA by force and I had no right to silence and I had no right to a lawyer now what's changed since then is they reformed the DNA part they've reformed the legal representation but the right to silence is still that's still there it's been taken away now that's an example of a hangover from the war and Terror there's many if you remember under Blair they tried to extend detention without charge for 90 days so emergencies the Patriot Act in the US emergencies are always used by the state for a power grab it's the nature of human beings it's an opportunity yes it's it's an opening that you do of like if in an MMA fight
if someone stumbles you dive on his back why wouldn't you exploit it yeah you it's natural you're there to win yes you know and you want to beat your opponent so and it's a massive opportunity to change the Paradigm you change everything that's happening so when the minute they suspended our rights under the Corona virus emergency Act is the minute my my lights started switching on like uh oh where's this going to head did you use your platform to advocate for a different approach did you say how you felt about this idea a of stripping away laws in the idea under the guise of protecting people that this is not only unnecessary but it's unproductive and it leads to bad things and instead there could be some sort of uh advocacy campaign for vaccination or advocacy campaign for doing responsible things and social distancing and not not taking it to the extreme of changing laws so look yes and where I'm coming from is back to Egypt they injected me against my will in prison with what who knows just inoculations who knows what it was we were taken and you know you've just come out of a torture dungeon right and you're going to fight with them and get sent back to the dungeon You're going to let them put whatever they want in your arm so we had a you know we in in the first place we were prisoners of conscience under jurus which is why in principle it was against our will and there's no point trying to fight it so coming from that background the minute in the UK they started saying if you don't get your jab we're sack you right no job no jab they called it yeah if you don't get this vaccination you can't travel and then it started going from their mission creep if you don't get this vaccination we're going to have a lockdown only for the unvaccinated which some European countries announced if you don't get this vaccination well you know we're going to start looking at whether you have to pay a fine every month which some European countries announced and some media pundits in the UK were openly advocating on the airwaves right you start hearing this rhetoric now you got to appreciate I've come from the background where I've had to reason myself out of a totalitarian agenda and embrace instead something I've believe I can hold on to and bring people towards
what was that thing well through the inspiration of amnesty it was essentially our values grounded in civil liberties and democracy I've I have been I've lost a family over that struggle yeah to commit to in that war and Terror to fighting a war an ideological war to defeating darkness in the form of terrorism that was beginning to engulf the Muslim mind I've sacrificed a lot in that struggle to come out on the other end of everything I fought for only to be told that the thing I'm defending is going to start doing the same thing the state is going to start telling me what I have to put in my body and when and if I don't agree I can't travel if I don't agree I can't work if I don't ree I can't leave my home now to play Devil's Advocate from their perspective they want to get people to be inoculated because they want to protect the population they want to slow the spread of this deadly disease and they want to bring Society back to normal as quickly as possible they see the tools that are at their disposal and they decide to use the law to try to make it forced to try to coers people into getting vaccinated for their better good and there's a bipartisan consensus on what you just said right the last time there was a bipartisan consensus on such a big lie was the invasion of Iraq when you say such a big lie it's a lie what is a lie about it the covid vaccination doesn't stop infection it doesn't stop transmission it does in the beginning right it reduces it for 12 weeks after which point is it only 12 weeks doesn't it vary per person uh so younger people don't need it of course for older people when we look at the studies it's 12 weeks after which point it reduces to the similar levels in terms of infection and transmission uh as the unvaccinated now that's we have the academic papers to demonstrate that but actually if you look at real world data today right now England that doesn't have vaccine passports compared to Wales and Scotland that do and we have lower rates in England even the Prime Minister Boris Johnson is on camera saying this thing doesn't stop infection or transmission I I argue with you that's why England has ditched the entire thing yesterday but isn't it because they thought it did initially yeah but that's why they were
the when the initial laws were put into place the consensus was that it stopped transmission it stopped infection and it protected you from hospitalization and death so right I I'm prepared to I'm prepared to uh in on the principle of Charity I'm prepared to assume that's what they thought it seems like that was the General consensus amongst medical experts in the early days of the vaccine that's why you know many of them that are now they've come out against these mandates they they talk about the initial days of it what it was like like and this is why they were in support of this I'm prepared to concede on the principle of Charity without knowing those guys I mean I know there were people that weren't establishment scientists that were saying from day one they were saying there's something wrong with this but but let's let's apply the principle of Charity because we should with every we should yes the minute it became clear because this is such an egregious violation of human dignity the minute it became clear this should have been ditched it it but it hasn't you know until today even in my country Scotland Wales haven't dropped this these mandates now the other point though is let's assume that was their intention I've got a deeper question which goes beyond the science and that is that if you've got if you've got the power to dictate to people what to put in their bodies on behalf of other people right and you're the state and that's the law you bring in now that I believe is such a fundamental shift in our social cont in the relationship between you and the state yes that it requires not only a broader discussion I I think that requires a democratic mandate to bring in because it's such a fundamental change in Direction in Western liberal democracies when it comes to the relationship we have with the state what do I mean by that if I said to you Joe listen you got two kidneys man I need one and you're going to give it to me because the state says you have to look after me now I've if I if I have done that without your involvement without your choice for the common good and I have the power to be able to do that and if I the reasoning I'm giving is that there are people that deserve
this kidney and you have a spare one and that you have to look after other people now it could be kidneys it could be anything it could be any medical procedure and generally beyond that it can be anything you have to do for other people's sake now if I want to redefine that relationship because up until now you had every right to say my blood is my blood and I know one needs a blood donation or you know or an organ donation I know I should care for people but it's still my decision if I'm going to change that and say it's no longer your decision right then it requires a a broader and deeper conversation and it requires I'd say that's referendum level change in our culture yeah like Switzerland has referendums it's like brexit referendum in the UK it's referendum level shift because it sets the precedent that going forward I have a 5-year-old if I Surrender this debate now and I'm 44 years old and say yes okay State on behalf of protecting Joe you can force me to do certain medical procedures because I have to think about Joe right I've surrendered my H my individual bodily autonomy for the common good my 5-year-old boy is never going to know what it felt like to say my body my choice now what I don't understand is the cognitive dissonance because on the one hand we argue my body my choice when it comes to abortion and we suddenly ditch that principle when it comes to uh vaccination or inoculation well the the the answer to that is vaccination and inoculation protects those around you that's what they would say so so peanuts yeah peanuts yeah so some people have a um allergy allergy to peanuts it's a minority of people right but it's the reason why and you'll know this anyone will know this you're going into a restaurant and they ask do you have any allergies before I order the food yeah and the reason they do that is because if there's even a trace of a peanut in that dish you could die if I'm going to start mandating these injections we know that there is a rare side effect we know that there are some people that die from them Lisa Shaw was a BBC journalist who died after her astroica vaccine as officially ruled by the coroner and written up by the BBC I'm in touch with her husband right his name is Gareth are they more transparent about injuries over there they've
started to be because our resistance has been very Fierce to all of this England is a bit of an outlier now now they just ditched everything yesterday although they're kind of there's a lot more to do but they've ditched what they called Plan B the whole idea of vaccine passports because there's been such a fierce resistance to this so take it back to that P so this woman yeah so so if I mandate injections right vaccination some people are going to die because we know that there is a side effect that some people die from this thing death is a side effect yes minority of people but it's like peanuts right right now it's insane to mandate peanuts in every meal right so again back to looking but peanuts don't have any there's no protecting other people by eating a peanut so go back to the original because we know that doesn't apply anymore Beyond 12 weeks it doesn't even protect people anymore but let's go back to the original and give them the benefit still protect them from hospitalization and death um isn't that depending on age depending on age depending on age right so you know a 5-year-old definitely not 12-year-old no uh my dad he's is in his 80s like late 880s yeah he's had his boosters yeah you know so and he's got comorbidities so if the infection fatality rate is 0.96% like the flu right now the office for National statistics in the UK through a freedom of information request has just revealed the number of people who died solely from covid with no other coexisting illness 17,7 think 31 if my memory Serv it's definitely 17,700 something total number of people from the beginning of this pandemic who've died only from covid and this is only in Britain in Britain right we were told the figure was in the hundreds of thousands right now this is all coming out in the UK now yeah there's a bit a bit of a retreat from all of this narrative but isn't the problem with that narrative that so many people have comorbidities and we have to protect them too like the thing about this country is there's a large percentage of us that are obese yeah it's probably somewhere in the neighborhood we looked at it right was it like 40% or something like that so it's a very high level so like what do
we do so Lisa Shaw and other so you're going to say I'm going to sack somebody who doesn't protect the other person yeah so what we're saying is and this is what I'm saying requires a proper debate because it's a shift in our culture Lisa I'm just playing devil I know I know I know I've heard you speak on this Lisa Shaw who died after her astrazenica vaccine was that death worth it because somebody else can't control their dietary habits well is that I mean obviously comorbidities vary it's not just her dietary abits could someone could have like some serious autoimmune disorder there's quite a few different things that constitute the big one is dietary habit obesity yeah obesity is if somebody is vulnerable in any other way what we've done with every other illness to date is that the vulnerable person has to protect themselves through a number of means yeah and we do what's reasonable to make sure the vulnerable person is looked after what we have never done is say that I'm responsible for your co-morbidities and your extra health problems and I have to take something at risk of losing my job that might have a side effect in me and could even kill me yes by law because I lose my job or I can't travel I can't go into this restaurant right now for me I mean the science for by now by the way is clear but let's assume this whole conversation is built on the principal of Charity that they didn't know the science at the time right that still doesn't uh that doesn't exonerate us from the political conversation that was needed about what kind of society we want to live in because for me if you get to a point like New York is today Wales and Scotland where you're telling me that I need to show identification before going into a restaurant before going into a hotel concert we've got a papers pleas Society in that case yes now you can't go from a democracy to a papers pleas Society within one election term without having any consultation with the public on this and without having a proper and informed debate about how this will permanently change the culture of our society and that's for me a bigger problem I mean the science is clear as I say but let's have this entire conversation on the assumption that when they initially
brought it in they were genuine right even though now it's proven that that's not the case but that's fine I'm I'm willing to give people the benefit of the doubt you want me to concede that from now on and permanently the state can tell me what to put in my body for the sake of the common good and to continue to do so every 6 months with a vaccination that hasn't been tested for any long-term side effects I just have to accept that the state knows what's best for me and always does the right thing now as I say the last time there was a bipartisan state-based consensus on something so meaningfully wrong was the invasion of Iraq now you're speaking to somebody who's been on the on the on the blunt end of what happens when a state gets something so wrong yeah there is no way you can undo what I've seen in my life to know that the state doesn't always act in our best interests and there is no way that you can remove those experiences from me now es especially when you're talking to somebody who's been injected against his will in prison right and the ethnic minority case here whether it's uh here in the US with the African-American communities and the whole experience of uh medical abuse by the state or I'll move it again to personal example in Pakistan the CIA conducted a fake vaccination program on children in the hunt for bin Laden that's not even concealed it's been admitted you can is that Jamie yo Jamie you can look it up Vox has reported everyone's report because they've admitted it and apologize for it now in the hunt for bin Laden there was a fake hepatitis B vaccine program on children collecting all their DNA to try and see if they were related to Bin Laden so they could trace Bin Laden this is why in Pakistan my family's country of origin the Taliban blow up vaccination centers because they think they're CIA France right so while he's looking that up I'll keep telling you this you you know there we are how the cia's fake hepatitis B vaccine program in Pakistan help fuel vaccine distrust wow now now you know what is that is that on they had a fake hepatitis B vaccine program and Jamie if you scroll down it may even contain the cia's apology in there but but but many of them do once it got exposed yeah but again Joe the
only way this gets exposed is when people like us have these conversations yeah now you're trying to not you but you know people are trying to convince me that none of this happened that the state's always had my best interest at heart I can't undo those experiences and those memories and the treatment to say okay you were wrong on Iraq and you actually lied you were wrong with this Hepatitis B vaccination program in Pakistan my family still live there okay you were wrong there and you lied and you did this fake program using vaccines but you know what okay you were wrong there but oh and you were wrong when you injected me in in prison one of your allies mabarak who was one of the closest allies of America after Israel in the Middle East but this time you're telling me the truth no I'm going to question I'm not saying you're lying right I'm not saying anyone's Lying by the way but that's a thing where under crisis people do not like people questioning the narrative because the narrative may offer us relief from this uncomfortable moment we find oursel currently in and we all collectively look to something to help us out of this and for a lot of people it's a vaccine so the vaccines became this this thing that you are not allowed to challenge and even though we have this dodgy history with the pharmaceutical companies you're supposed to ignore that supposed to completely put that on the back burner well well this is where again you can't undo what I know about this right so let's try another one can you look up who paid the largest criminal fine in history thank you Jamie sorry to give you orders here but who paid the so the assumption that that pharmaceutical companies are acting in your best interest just like the assumption that the CIA when it encourages these things vaccination programs and say Pakistan is is acting in your best interest is an assumption that has to be interrogated now we know here in America the opioid crisis um that um that that the medical establishment was was abused and the opioid crisis here in the States ended up killing more people than the AIDS crisis yeah now Pharmaceuticals make a lot of money out of this and so with the who paid the largest criminal fine in history you you'll probably get two
results depending on your search engine and though you don't need to put in the word who paid the largest Pharmaceutical IC fine in history you can just say who paid the largest criminal fine in history and you'll get Glo Smith Klein and fiser and the difference is I think the difference was that Glo Smith Klein have paid the largest accumulative fine and fisa has paid the largest fine in one big go yeah and you can go to something called the violation tracker since the year 2000 it documents all of the criminal and cimal civil violations that fisa has been found on the wrong side of and has paid fines for and so this assumption that pharmace big pharmaceutical companies are acting in our best interests again is an assumption that has to be interrogated because it's during an emergency where debate is being silenced that it becomes incredibly important to ask these questions yes otherwise it gets snuck in and you can never undo it and when you were working at the BBC you started doing what you always do is you're questioning narratives you're discussing ideas openly and objectively what kind of push push back you getting so it was LBC oh LBC which is um it's the so they part Global is the largest commercial radio group in the UK and they have music channels and and what have you and then one of them was the talk radio side called LBC and um I was having these sorts of conversations and without going into whatever you know cuz I'm no longer there so for legal reasons I don't want to get into what specifically happened what I will say is I was scheduled to go on the very next weekend after returning from my Christmas break in Tennessee and a day before um my schedule is I had a weekend show and it was doing really well you know imagine a weekend lunchtime when everyone should be in their in their restaurants having a good time having their bloody marys having their Sunday roasts and I was getting over half a million listeners on a weekend lunchtime for only two shows a week and uh it went from a graveyard shift to being a really you know respected slot um one day before reappearing this this month uh they told me that um my services were no longer required but the what part isn't in
dispute the indisputable part is my contract was on until April but I'm not there anymore did they have a conversation with you at any point in time before that were they're like well you probably can't talk about I can't talk yeah but but I know that what I will say is what why people other people outside of my then bosses were upset with me including in the organization was because we were having I was having these sorts of conversations I'm having with you that that CIA Pakistan thing multiple times mentioned it on my show uh I actually physically pulled out my phone and asked my my listeners to Google who paid the largest fit criminal fine in history and had them call in yep fisa fisa fiser you know so that kind of conversation where I'm trying to by the way all while being double jabbed I am I got two fiser vaccinations right so people still throwing antiva labels at me yeah and this is the problem it's like heretic the Southern Poverty Law Center called me an anti-muslim extremist whoow and they listed me as an anti-muslim extremist at the same time there's a uh there's a database called Thompson reuter's World check all the banks all the large accountancy firms all the big money firms in Wall Street in the city of London they all subscribe to World Che because if you have a bank account they want to make sure that you're not funding terrorism so World check is a database that categorizes you as to whether you're clean or not when it comes to finances from a terrorism lens you I'm I'm probably the only person you'll meet on the planet that was simultaneous listed by well Che Thompson Reuters under category red terrorism as a Muslim terrorist while listed at the same time by the Southern Poverty Law Center as an anti-muslim extremist right but didn't they say Sam was one of those too they didn't list him but uh was he aan was aan Ali was listed so what I did is I sued them both and I got uh I won against Thompson reuter's World check they had to publicly apologize in court remove that defamation and they paid damages and I sued the Southern Poverty Law Center that didn't get to court because before disclosure they publicly put out a a video apologized and pay damages but what that story serves to tell you is that when you question these things
today it's so lazy and easy to throw labels at people so being double jabbed they call me an antivaxer being a Muslim that had literally gone to jail for my faith they were calling me an anti-muslim extremist and this is how absurd these people are that you disag agree with somebody and instead of trying to engage with a substance of your point they want to throw a label at you and hope it sticks and isn't this just what happens when people get into power and by I say when I say into Power I'm not just talking about government I'm also talking about people that have accepted a certain narrative and find that there's a lot of other people that are along with them in the same narrative and they have these media pylons like social media pylons where they'll attack people and like call you an antivaxer even though you've been vaccinated the same thing with Eric Clapton they were angry at Eric Clapton because he spoke openly about his very extreme vaccine side effects just speaking openly as a person who is vaccinated and they called him a vile antivaxer well the question is why right and it's to shut debate down now why would you want to shut debate down there's I think there's a deeper Point here and that is that we've just we've just come out of a time where for a long time uh moral and let's just say relativism whether it's moral or otherwise relativism this idea that truth is relative this idea that um that it's all subjective that everything is personal experience that's being promoted yeah there's no such thing as reality whether it comes down to defining a man or woman U we spoke about this last time I was here with with um well it was there in California but with Sam as well we spoke about the the trans debate in man woman different whether it's defining a man and a woman whether it's anything else this idea that actually truth is all personally subjective right when you when you promote the idea that there's no such thing as truth and when you shut down debate that is seeking truth not that it claims truth but is seeking it when you shut that debate down in Aid of this idea that truth is relative like those for example now know
the science that the uh covid vaccination doesn't stop or or doesn't stop infection or transmission and doesn't reduce it Beyond 12 weeks the booster shot by the way is eight weeks but having known that and they still insist on vaccine passports it's it's no longer about seeking the truth for them the truth is relative and it serves a purpose what happens when you do that when there's no such thing as truth you can't Define reality and when you can't Define reality the only only thing that matters is power you're a father now we your child children who can't reason like my my kids's five I mean his reasoning abilities are great but he's five right it's why you say to the child because I said so do it it's good for you because they don't know how to reason yet yeah and you try and if something's too complex you say I'll explain another time but right now you have to listen to your father don't do this when you can't when there's no such thing as truth because Everything's Relative the only thing that matters is power because power gets to Define reality and this brings us to the hybrid War we're in right now and that's why people that are in power who are seeking a specific outcome from the world that we're in want to shut debate down what they're not interested in seeking truth what they're interested in is shutting that debate down because power steps into that void when reason no longer exists and gets to Define reality for you from up above and it's why it's so important in a dictatorship that the only thing you have left when all your power is taken from you is the truth and if you read all well if you look at 1984 it's why he spends so much time talking about how the power he was uh writing about in that in that fictional account is attempting to redefine reality redefine the past redefine the future because if if you can't hold on to reality you have no premise to scrutinize the government for whether they're telling you the truth or not and it's really it is is a war in that sense hybrid War so information in that war becomes your most powerful weapon now most people don't have the privilege of researching these debates foreign policy war on terror covid whatever it is people don't have the
privilege because they're working N9 to5 a minimum wage and they're hungry and they're and they're just busy trying to live and survive what they normally do is they Outsource their thinking on where the truth lies to trusted voices in the media so it's why it becomes so important to manipulate the media so that those trusted voices that people are looking to are no longer giving them at least the best understanding of the truth they have but are also pedling the agenda of power when you're in a situation like that it becomes difficult to Define reality and therefore difficult to challenge government um on whether or not they are uh sticking to their promises because everything gets shifted Everything's Relative the overturn window keeps moving the goalposts keep shifting if you remember back in at the beginning of this we were told two weeks whatever it was flat the curve flatten the curve yeah now look at us two years later and we're here still well look at Montreal there's still lockdown right now they can't go out at 10:00 yeah the goal post keep shifting and you're expected to forget what you were told last time right in the UK we were told specifically two weeks and then it went from two weeks to flatten the curve to we're only going to just wait in lockdown and we by the way we had a national lockdown a very long one yeah we're all confined to our homes and they said just wait we're going to inoculate the most vulnerable just think of granny don't kill Granny yeah so by the way my grandmother died in all of this so again I'm not anti- grandmother yeah I wasn't allowed to attend her on her deathbed while the Prime Minister and all of his special advisers and all of the cabinet were drinking with cheese and wine parties in Downing Street Breaking All the Rules which has all come out now in the press and it's not just me many people in the UK went through that horrific experience we couldn't even visit our dying relatives and they were partying meanwhile the health secretary caught on video camera having an affair in his office in government offices right Matt Han [ __ ] so we went through that whole lockdown it went from 2 weeks to flatten the curve to okay just wait until we just vaccinate the vulnerable then it was we
just just wait we're going to vaccinate everyone over 40 which is when I originally got it right I'm 44 then it was just wait until we vaccinate all the adults and get her H immunity then they shifted the go post again just wait until we vaccinate the kids now the jcvi in the UK The Joint Committee for vaccination and immunization failed did not uh recommend to the government they failed to recommend vaccinating children government went ahead Anyway said no no no we have to vaccinate the kids you keep Shifting the gold poost like 1984 George Orwell and you keep telling people gaslighting the people that's not what we said no no no no that's not what we didn't just say wait until we did you know vaccinated no no you're getting it wrong kept gaslighting the people Shifting the definition of reality playing with people's memories that serves a purpose in this hybrid war in which information is the weapon it serves a purpose because you've got to you've got to disorient confuse and create self-doubt in the citizens so they no longer have the strength to question government for what they said and what they didn't deliver or what they did deliver when they weren't meant to and that's how you that's how you stymy or handicap any opposition and in the UK again because there was a bipartisan consensus even the opposition party like with Iraq they kept saying to every crisis the solution was harsher restrictions harsher restrictions in the end people the only way when you're in that situation where you've been locked in your homes where the state's telling you you have to get injected or you lose your job right when you've lost all your rights even by law because the emergency act came in and we we weren't even legally allowed to oppose any of this in the end you're in a situation the only way people get their rights back from tyranny is by taking them through activism you never in that situation the state never just gives your rights back now when I say taking them I mean civil action I mean mean protest I mean activism I don't mean violence but that's why if you look to the example of England unlike Wales and Scotland there were huge protests and a lot of voices not just mine were Fierce on this to a point where England
had to you know they couldn't they just retreated on all of this now and all of the everything I've been saying you take up masks you take lockdowns you take um mandatory vaccines and I've only ever been opposed the mandates by the way right it's only about mandates for me whether you define mandates as lockdowns or mass mandates or vaccine mandates for me it's the force bit that I don't like I'm double jabbed again to remind everyone but everything we were saying that mass mandates are useless that the virus particles are millions of times smaller than the cloth mask they were telling everybody to use that testing continuously was actually making the problem worse um the PCR tests were unreliable they ditched the PCR tests that lockdowns did anyone ever think of what we call an impact assessment they were going to lock you in your homes to save X number of lives does that kill why number of people more in other words does it kill more people then we're saving cuz if you were opposed to the lockdowns in those days are you want to kill Granny and my question was if I save one granny am I killing 10 isn't the way to find that out to look at overall death yeah and whether or not it changes year after year after year yeah we have a f so this is the interesting point um so since being uh we'll get to what I'm doing next in terms of my media work but very quickly I started as a substack after I my services were no longer required um and one of the things I put up in there the last one I wrote is this idea that this on statistic the office for National statistics that came out with the Freedom of Information request and they said yeah 17,000 whatever it was 730 whatever people died from only from covid since the beginning of this pandemic right and we were told it's hundreds of thousands but there is a spike in all cause mortality now if it's not from covid what's causing it that's a question that remains open the times of London reported that there's been a 25% spike in heart attacks in Scotland Professor Norman Fenton and Professor Neil from Queen Mary Westfield University in London part of the University of London have have looked at this and said there's a 5-year high in all cause mortality now if there's a 25% spike in heart attacks in Scotland that are as of
yet unexplained there's a 5year spike in all cause mortality but covid deaths are similar to flu deaths then what's causing all these excess deaths well how many of those people survived covid and then had heart attacks later cuz that is one of the side effects of Co is blood clots heart issues so Professor Fenton and I you know I say he's done the research not me all I'm saying is floating the question saying these need answers he said that that these specific spikes in deaths were specifically after vaccination and were those people also infected with covid I don't think I don't think so from memory but I'd have to look at that but I don't from memory that's the big distinction when it comes to myocarditis and all these different things like what if yeah what if you have both yeah you know like what if it's an issue that where they got a bad case of covid even though they were vaccinated what do you blame it on that so if so so to break that question down we have to look at with covid and of covid deaths as well right so the the health secretary so by the way these um talking points that you've obviously heard over the last two years every single one of them in the UK has now been conceded to this whole distinction death of covid with Co just they're doing that now it's fascinating to watch even the CDC every single one including the debate about natural immunity it's being it's almost like they've gotten to the point where to maintain future credibility to have to admit these absolute truths that everyone else already knows yeah so the health secretary in the UK came out and admitted that the covid deaths have been overestimated because there's been a mix between with covid and of covid right we also know that again memory yeah so forgive me if this is off but from memory 2third of covid cases were caught after Hospital ad admission rather than because of Co right there hospitalized for something else they get in hospital that's a big thing with young people now if you put all of that together and you recognize that there's 17,000 roughly deaths only of covid and there's this Spike fiveyear spike in all cause mortality it wouldn't make sense to say did they have covid as well when we know that only 177,000 only one death is too many but 177,000 died only of covid and
that a lot of these people were getting Co in hospital right and it's a similar thing like I'm going to show you this um can we can we do something Independent Newspaper yeah there's this um multi- gold medalist olymp Olympian weightlifter from Hungary um his name was Sylvester something but if you look up the independent antiva gold medalist dead this is today's news right I've got it here as well because I put it out earlier you could um air drop that to Jamie if you'd like oh here you go right look at that headline see see that headline yeah antix Olympic gold medalist uh Sylvester Sol can you know how to say his name uh I think Sylvester soleny it's it's spelled with a lot of different words s z i l v s z t r CS o l l a n y so uh he died of covid age 51 they're calling him an antiva yep now if you scroll down please sir Jamie scroll down to that go uh hit hit um you have to oh you have to register to keep read okay so I've got it on my phone can I send it to you yeah how do I do that actually you might not be able to because it's uh is this on a um can he uh I'll try later hit that I'll try later hit the I'll try later and you'll get to the art article yeah there we are right okay now if you go down to yeah there we are while so that paragraph while lonely had according to the publication paragraph above it yeah he contacted the virus soon after receiving his jab do you see that so they called him an antivaxer six time World Championship medalist had been vaccinated to allow him to continue work as a gymnastics coach however he contracted the virus soon after receiving his jab and the headline calls him an antivaxer and says he dies now this is the manipulation that's been going on this is from today's press it's still going on he had not built sufficient levels of antibodies so he was jabbed so back to your question what's causing this Spike 5year spike in all cause mortality how crazy is it that that's how they decide to portray him they they to theine that's that's Folly right they make him look like a fool it's deceit yeah well it's this narrative that they want to push where whenever someone questions whether it's Eric Clapton or yourself or anyone they'll call you an antivaxer this man was it's such a yeah now so why I showed
you that is back to that question if they die after the vaccination one of the things Norman Fenton Professor from Queen Mary Westfield in response to your question that did they have covid too right is first of all we know the covid deaths are 177,000 so and we know the majority of hospitalized cases of Co were caught after hospitalization we also know in his study he says they died soon after the vaccination right now you want to you want to look at this and now I'm not I'm not giving you a reason for why there's an all fiveyear Spike I'm saying these questions as somebody that works in media these questions demand answers and he's looked at this and he said Professor Fenton and Neil from Queen Mary's and they've said these deaths were soon after vaccination the this Spike right and they're saying their view is they have to interrogate whether the vaccination itself whether it caused myocarditis or any other negative reaction that's caused this spike in deaths and that by the way that spike it could then be you go to hospital and you catch Co in hospital but that's not the reason you're in hospital we already know that right so these are in ordinary times whether it's with a thalidomide scandal that historically led to babies being born you know without their limbs intact um whether it's you know the CIA example I gave you um with the Hepatitis B fake vaccination program in Pakistan whether it's uh the uh Tusk experimentation African-Americans here we know this malpractice occurs right we know that abuse has happened historically now here you got a vaccine that um has just been rolled out hasn't been tested in the long term and we've got some alarming figures of uh uh uh all cause spike in mortality and we know in instances that there is a side effect of death as in the case of BBC journalist Lisa shaww who the coroner rulle specifically died because of astroica the vaccine so there are multiple questions here that demand answers but asking those questions without drawing conclusions by the way I have never on air discouraged anybody to get the vaccine people used to call it was a call-in Show members of the public would call in Imagine sitting there for 3 hours yeah I give a monologue for 20 minutes and then I'm Open Season anyone
can call and interrogate me it's good for practice in debates but point is people would call up and say should I get the jab magic I'd say I'm not a doctor I can't advise you I'm talking about mandates because I I tell you one thing I am as a post-graduate of political Theory I understand how political systems work and my concern is more on a macro level these questions about deaths what I'm concerned about is that the people who ask these questions suddenly you find they lose their jobs they become stigmatized and that kind of behavior I've seen happen before because that's what happens in tyranny when you question authority it's what happened to us and it's what these great uh historical literary figures have always advised us to question whether it's Orwell uh whether it's the gulag archipelago whether it's sulen etson whether it's um and we have that experience because of the Soviet Union right we understand uh Darkness at noon right these books Catch 22 Joseph hel about the absurdity of rules and bureaucracy that don't make sense the entire point of these books is to teach us do not just succumb to whatever the bureaucracy is telling you but ask questions where things don't make sense and when people are trying to shut those debates down that says more to me about what's going on than anything else isn't it Universal though in terms of like World Government there's not world government that I'm aware of that's very open about what's going on about failures and mistakes and not understanding the information correctly because they were under an assumption that proved to be incorrect it's essentially across the board and isn't part of that just managing some sort of large scale pandemic with a large population of people and trying to make sense of it all and trying to figure out how do you manage that and you have to have two different things going on you have to have actual Solutions like medication and you also have to have Optics you have to give the people the impression that you're managing this and you're working very hard to figure this out and you've come to some uncomfortable conclusions and you've made some decisions that maybe going to upset people but they're going
to help everyone overall so we need to go to the origins of Co to see again on a global level then were they acting in good faith right now all the evidence currently indicates no and when you say they who do you mean by they people in power all the people in power are acting in bad faith the people in power that are interacting in our reality yeah don't I mean when we're talking about like um leaks and emails that have been exposed when you talk about conversations between people that worked in the Wuhan lab and those are being exposed to us very recently I'm under no imp impression that politicians were aware of these emails before us so the lab link let's talk through that example yeah so one thing we can say I think quite fairly is I doubt Fouch is acting in the best possible way he should be acting right so he knew about this slab leak thing from the very beginning and the leaks that have now come out even the Dara leaks themselves indicate that they attempted to suffocate the story in the UK we have a similar example lanet which is a very well respected medical J um one of the guys that well actually the guy that fou Federal funding supported his name is Peter dazak Eco Health Alliance he's a Brit mhm and they were the ones engaged in gain of function research in Wuhan in that lab now there was a letter very early on and I was from the beginning I was questioning the lab League thing um and again getting into trouble for doing so but this is before any of the leaks but there was still evidence to indicate something wasn't right here Brett Weinstein talked about it I had show very early absolutely but he's an evolutionary biologist he understood the actual and that's why I got him on my show as well there's a video of him on my show talking about this right now what what happened is that this guy that voui was funding Peter daak in the Eco Health Alliance that's not in dispute that they received Federal funding uh fouchi in Congress testified and said it wasn't gain and function to Senator rumple's um uh uh sort of hearings and the leaks have subsequently indicated that they did know that this funding was being used in the lab in wo uh to make this virus sticky to make it stronger and to make it you know work for humans to actually infect humans now
Peter daak again very early on uh co-authored a letter in the Lancet which is a very respected medical journal in the UK in which before these leaks came out they declared that anybody who questions whether this was leaked from a lab is a conspiracy theorist and it was signed by a number of doctors and it was among them Peter dazak Peter dazak is the guy that got the fun to do this work at the bottom of all medical journal articles you have to declare an interest are there any conflicts and they said we have no conflicts of interest so here you've got that these guys wrote a hitpiece calling anybody like Brett who questions whether it's a lab leak a conspiracy theorist while obviously it's him Peter dazak receiving funding to do that very work writing a piece in a medical journal smearing those who are attempting to uncover whether he'd received funding to do that very work I think I'm qualified enough in the human in in human nature at least to be able to say he wasn't acting in our best interest that's a conflict that's a conflict and that you see from the very beginning of this thing it happened with everything we were saying lab leak masks lockdowns mandates eventually the truth came out but it had to be fought for so that tells me that the people that were attempting to suffocate this Truth at least not everybody but the people that were involved in suffocating the truth and smearing dissident while knowing because the leaks indicate that they knew right they weren't acting in our best interests and I think that's a fair conclusion to reach uh what were they doing they were attempting to use this emergency to usher in a new way of doing things uh vaccine passports even though in the UK and England at least now we've dropped them and uh Ireland followed suit the Czech Republic has followed suit but it wasn't ever about you not being able to come into say into this uh Studio and infect me because even after they learned that you could still infect me the vaccine passports were still in place but they've told us they meaning people in power have told us what they want to do next so the UK is currently the head of the G7 group that's the world's most economically Advanced countries and the UK currently chairs
the G7 group our chancellor who does our economy called Chancellor of the exer his name is Rishi sunak he's put out this video this is all my feeds by the way my social feeds he put out this video saying that um what they want to do is bring in this uh thing called the Central Banking digital currency they want to replace Fiat paper money with digital money as a competitor to bitcoin and crypto money right but instead of being a decentralized currency it will be controlled by a government it's digital currency but controlled centrally through the banks Bank of England so instead of having a bank account with whatever HSBC or Bank of America you'll have a bank account directly with in the American context with the FED in the UK directly with the bank of England you have a personal bank account and you're given digital money in that bank account these are called Central Banking digital currencies the chancellor of the ex cheer in the UK has already announced their intention to do this as the G7 group and these uh if you look up um this sounds terrifying if you look up uh the Telegraph newspaper I've already Googled it and there's a lot of headlines about it yep there's a specific article in the telegraph uh programmable digital currency yeah um if you can't find it I'll pull it out for my Twitter feed and uh we can we can talk through it on my feed but while he's looking for that I'll talk you through it so one of these um Central Bank digital courtesy uh currency is that the one down Bel digital currency should be programmable see that one there yeah he's looking at it even on the search it says the word programmable top search result yeah third line down I I see that y should be programmable programming yeah now see again there's a pay War but uh may start your free trial yeah but you can see the word there right programming in the headline now what they're doing is they're saying that this digital currency once you're you cuz you know everyone knows that with inflation at over 5% it's now 5.4% right uh our Fiat money the paper money is increasingly becoming worthless and we're headed towards a big disaster they the FED wants to raise interest rates but we're in so much debt that if you raise interest rates people are going to
suffer because everyone that you know we're living on debt as Western economies so they realize that this kind of the LIF span of paper money is fast coming to an end because of the 2008 economic crash in particular so they're bringing in these Central Banking digital currencies why is that word programmable in there so what they said in that article and the and the chance to put a video out saying this as well they said right think back to what vaccine passports were yeah if you don't have your jab you can't even eat in this restaurant what they've said and why the word programmable was in that headline was they've said that this money that you will earn from work instead of having paper money you have this digital money it's programmable so that you can't buy certain foods or if you do something that your employer doesn't like it's all in that article you won't be able to spend your money in other words it's not money they're vouchers they're like food vouchers and they can be programmed so that like the Chinese social credit system that if you try and use them on a certain thing it won't work you say you want to buy a burger and they want you to buy Bugs which is one of the examples used if you start to try and buy unhealthy meat just won't work you tap you tap your card you can't buy the thing because you've met your quota that month of burgers you have to buy something like a a vegan meal so it won't just be money in the sense of the way we have dollars or pounds today it'll be something that's controlled in terms of your ability to distribute it which is why I'm calling it a voucher it's a coupon but even a coupon if you have a coupon to buy bread you can still buy the bread like there's no but you can't buy see that coupon to buy bread what you can't do is buy a burger with that coupon it's for bread right yeah right so a central so you will have the Central Banking digital currency and then what they're talking about in that article that we just pulled up is you'll they'll say right and explicitly uses the words uh won't be used on something that the employer deems inappropriate or the state deems inappropriate oh we got to see this see see if we can find that or I was digging through a different article about it too talking about it's GNA there's pilot programs going to be
used in the Olympics coming up in China yep they've already started it in right now you do you feel like you're sounding the alarm yes for people that don't understand what the [ __ ] is going on so here I pulled it up for you here yeah so there's the video I don't know if your camera can see that it no there's the video there's him speaking about it the G7 is launching a set of public policy principles for retail Central Bank digital currencies cbdcs Central Bank digital currencies could be a digital version of money a bit like a digital bank note that could be used along so that's the guy who runs our economy in the UK he's name is the chancellor of the exer and here is the article Bank of England tells ministers to intervene on digital currency programming yeah and here's a quote from the article this is in the telegraph the Mone pulled up but it was behind a pay wall so I'll just read the quote digital cash could be programmed to ensure it is only spent on Essentials or Goods which an employer or government deems to be sensible holy [ __ ] now I'm going to take it one step further fugo right so the vaccine passport infrastructure is in place but now we know that the vaccine doesn't stop infection or transmission but the Checkpoint Charlie exists everywhere they bring in digital banking Central Banking digital currencies you got a scenario now that you're checking in and out everywhere you go using vouchers that are programmed and you can only spend where you're told you can spend them there's another word for that man that's called the Chinese social credit system that's what it's called and anyone who watches Black Mirror will know what I'm talking about that's that TV show right yeah so what they are telling us and when I say they who's they people in power that's the head of our economy the chancellor of the exer second most powerful person other than the Prime Minister and maybe the foreign secretary in the UK right he's telling us I just played it there for you he's telling us that's what he as the UK the head of the G7 want to bring in for the G7 so a scenario where like in New York at the moment because the the passport infrastructure is in place you bring in that digital currency and you've got
this total control and if I'm speaking to you the way I'm speaking now and my employer or government you heard that in the quote directly here deems me as saying or doing something inappropriate suddenly I can't actually pay to come here and speak to you anymore my my digital currency won't even pay for the ticket CU it will be known that I'm coming to speak to you sorry your your vouchers don't allow you to purchase that ticket to go and speak to John and this is where we get into the kind of censorship that we see in social media that is not it's not you can't have that kind of censorship with the first amendment in normal discourse but you can have that kind of censorship if you've developed a digital platform that distributes information but it's a private company so think about what money is where you can spending on spending on whatever you want versus this digital currency which is essentially controlled in a a sense like you have free speech on Twitter but you really don't because if you go too far or you talk about something that they don't find appropriate they'll just ban your account that could be what we're looking at in terms of the what we think of as free speech being social media platforms could be what we think of as the your free range ability to buy whatever you want with whatever money that you've earned so what's going on here right we're in a moment in history and this is why I said to you what I can speak to you about with a bit more Authority than even the science debate and I've done my homework on the science debate I had to because I had a live show and I was interrogated by the public for 3 hours on a call-in show I had to have done my homework and the way you've seen me be able to pull out my receipts yeah yes that's what I had to do on the show but put the science aside where I where I will speak with a level of authorities political Theory right I'm a postgraduate in that I spent my entire life involved in in political structures and political activism and thinking about social contracts now what what's going on here is with this Central Banking digital currency if you get to if you get to that situation where you end up with the Chinese social
credit system in the west why why would anyone want to do that right I believe we're in a moment of the Gutenberg Press go back to when the printing press was invented technology disrupts power structures it always has printing and its invention was a new technology what happened when they invented printing press the power structures who up until that point were reading the Bible for you and were telling you that you got to pay this priest x amount of favors and he'll forgive you your sins and that became a bribery system right which is what Martin Luther was so upset about when he pinned his thesis to the to the to the to the to the wall the printing press disrupted that power dynamic because people could read the Bible for themselves and they began realizing that the power structures were manipulating what was written to control people now nobody in hindsight is going to argue that Printing and its invention is a bad thing for Humanity but at the time it led to war it led to the 30 years war in Europe because it disrupted power so much that people began rising up and it led to this 30-year period of War which eventually led to the Reformation and the rest is history right what's today's Guttenberg press the internet the decentralization of information and then because of that the internet the decentralization of currency in the form of crypto is disrupting power because the way that After the revolution of the Reformation in the printing press control was still possible though obviously not to that level which is why we no longer have those absolute monarchies but control in a nation state context was still possible to an extent because the money Supply was controlled now what's happening is that the invention of the internet with the decentralization of information and in particular here the decentralization of currency in the form of cryptocurrencies is disrupting those power hierarchies and it's leading to this conflict now and we're in a moment when the printing press was invented the powers that be needed to try and hold on to that power as the 30 Years War kicked off they eventually lost it but to hold on to it they became very brutal because they were losing their grip on power today
this is what I believe we're witnessing it's not about vaccine passports this was a red herring to have the infrastructure in place that you can have a Checkpoint Charlie Society so that when the Central Banking digital currencies are in place that infrastructure is already there because people were so scared they voluntarily allowed you to put that in place so that you can maintain your grip on power because what's coming around the corner is the decentralization of everything of media therefore of narrative and of course remember whoever defines the truth gets get to Define reality decentralization of narratives decentralization of the economy through crypto you no longer have the power to define the story and control the money supply so the powers that be who are losing that power need to clamp down they're clamping down on their own children because we are people who are born of the West so it's an internal Civil War in a hybrid War context over truth and over information centralization versus decentralization basically it's no longer about left or right it's about up versus down it's about power versus those who don't have power do you think if there was no cryptocurrency if there was no Bitcoin Bitcoin or any of the other cryptocoins that they would attempt to do some sort of digital currency do you think that this is a response to the understanding that that decentralized digital currency is eventually going to take over or has gained far more momentum than they ever anticipated I think so and also decentralized media because you can't control the narrative right see how easy was to convince everybody initially that the Iraq War was needed right now you got a point today where they haven't been able to convince people of their measures that they wanted to bring in when Co struck because it was quicker to be able to unpick that narrative due to decentralization shows like this that weren't under the traditional uh yoke of traditional media were able to have certain conversations now that means that it's harder to control the narrative and so in a situation like that when you're losing your Griff power the only option you have left is to clamp down and and I'm sorry to say but that means like the 30 years war in
Europe after the printing press was invented we may in be be in for a bit of a rough ride ahead but we are literally facing a Crossroads do we go down the direction of centralization or decentralization it's obvious where I stand I think ultimately like happened eventually after the wars of um 30 Years War and eventually people need to be respected and they will win they will win this and we'll end up with a better future but there's going to be some short-term pain and what do you mean by that um there will be another emergency whether it's war with Russia uh which is already being played up uh whatever it is whether it's the crash of the economy because of the Fiat and the inflation at 5.4% at least in the UK it's 5.4% here I know it's half control here as well if the currency collapses because we're living on printed money at the moment it's called quantitative easing we are literally printing ourselves money to try and pay for our debt we're just printing more money that's sustainable so we're in this situation where any other crisis could occur if the uh gas Putin controls Europe's gas supply if there's a war with Ukraine he cuts off the gas supply there's a nordstream 2 pipeline that Services Germany but also other European countries are dependent on Russian gas so if he shuts off the gas supply you end up with food shortages now you can go one or two ways if there's riots because people are hungry that's a perfect pretext to bring in more Draconian power to to control society and people will want it because nobody wants to live in like with riots I mean people moving away from the West Coast in San Francisco in particular because of some of the the crime problems there right so people move away from that but if you got food shortages everywhere and people end up rioting it's a good reason to say right we need more power to control this we need more emergency Powers we need stronger laws and so you end up in a situation where crises can be manipulated to bring in stronger and stronger Authority when really what's going on is we're in this Crossroads in history now we will get out of this because ultimately it's a numbers game and ultimately in times like this you end up fighting against your own Sons right it's those in power
fighting their own people and eventually the people are by sheer numbers you know end up becoming the people in power right so in the long run we may well end up in a decentralized world which will be much better but as I say that to get there we have to get through this period of the in power attempting to to to to hold on to that power do you think it's possible that we won't get there and then we'll wind up in a more Draconian centralized World everything's possible professor John Gray at the lsse questions the idea that history moves in a positive trajectory he he questions the idea that we're only ever going to get better his his theory is in the context of liberalism we must never take anything for granted but it's why I've been so vocal because everything we've just spoken about I've looked at this I've had to reason myself out of totalitarian systems and so when I see that what I joined kind of our values that we believe and hold dear to our civil liberties what I sacrifice things to defend if the thing I'm defending is moving in that direction as well I can see that pattern I can see the early warning signs um Hannah arent is a German Jewish philosopher was uh she wrote about the rise of totalitarianism in Germany to try and understand it in fact was one of the leading and first philosophers to try and dissect totalitarianism and how it emerged and she coined this Theory which is everybody can look it up it's called the banality of evil and her basic point was she ended up living the her final years in Israel and she was really interested in understanding how ordinary everyday nice people became Nazis yeah and the banality of evil is her theory that explains it and and the point was that actually good people can do evil things and the don't even realize they're doing them and it's incremental it's step by step and each incremental step is Justified for the common good until that the like a proverbial frog being bored alive in water and because it's a frog and its skin temperature changes with the water it doesn't realize it's being bored alive until it's too late and it dies with the boiling water it doesn't jump out so that take that proverb that story and
apply it to Hannah aren's theory of the banality of evil that if you incrementally change step by CH you change society before before you even realize it you've got to a point that it's it's past the point of no return if that happens it's it's very difficult to get out of that without external intervention well you see this mindset that's very disturbing in online and social media you see this mindset from people that if you had talked to them four or five years ago they would never Advocate denying anyone medical help for diseases for something that they had caused like say obesity something that was a personal choice they had made or an addiction that they had to food or what have you drug addictions no no one would ever deny medical treatment to those people you would never advocate for that especially not publicly and openly and then other an entire group especially now that we know what you said about how the vaccine at a certain point in time no longer stops transmission no longer stops infection like you're still giving it to people and you're still getting it so if that is the case and we know that to be the case now how can anybody in their right mind under good conscience Advocate that someone would be denied medical care because they didn't subscribe to the same thing you subscribed to because they didn't take this inoculation that you took right so we know that in Israel when you look at rates so in terms of percentages now not just raw figures but percentages the rate of covid is higher among the boosted than it is among don't they have a much higher rate of boosted people so that's why I'm saying it's a comparative figure it's adjusted for percentages okay so even adjusted for but but they have a very low percentage of people that are unvaccinated right so you can sample that with control is it like less than 10% it's low it is low but there are still some in Israel but also in the UK these Studies have been done looking at percentages and rates prior to Omicron even in the UK they found that the rate this is in fact um in The Spectator magazine you can put it up uh the rate of covid is higher among the vaccinated than the unvaccinated rate not numbers yeah so what do they
attribute that to so I don't want to get into the science because you can speak to people like Robert Malone as you've done and they can get into the science here the questions as to whether for example one thing we do know is our health secretary's admitted that it is not normal to roll out Mass vaccination during a pandemic because what that is said to encourage is mutated versions that can evade the vaccine right and there's a video of our health sec even admitting that now we were saying that a long time ago they're they're all admitting this stuff now and there's something called ad which is antibody dependent enhancement that the virus could indeed through evolutionary processes learn what to evade while it's still in its early stages of its first wave and its second wave which is why what normally used to happen is you wait for the three waves of a typical pandemic before you start inoculating against that pandemic but to try and inoculate in the middle of a virus some scientists are saying only encourages antibody dependent enhancement in other words a mutated version that specifically targets the vaccinated because it's evolved to evade that Spike protein but take that science away right and just let's discuss it from the idea that mass vaccination in the middle of a pandemic right you get to a point now where it's openly accepted in media narratives now that this vaccine doesn't stop infection or transmission and there are articles explicitly saying that the rate of those vaccinated is higher than those who are under vaccinated but they're still insisting on the vaccine passport and they're still insisting on demonizing the unvaccinated now take Canada a father was denied access to his child by a judge reported by the BBC denied access visiting rights to his child by a judge because he was unvaccinated on the request of the mother what purpose does demonizing the unvaccinated serve if the science is no longer supporting their arguments yeah what purpose does it serve to say uh you you can't have an organ transplant if you're not vaccinated we'll deny you service in a hospital or we'll lock lock down only the unvaccinated now we know what we know what purpose do these Draconian measures serve the only thing
that makes sense to my mind is what we were talking about because they are very keen to make sure the infrastructure is there for the Central Banking digital currencies for the you need a checkpoint Society to live in that digital world like China so meaning they need people to follow every step step of what they're mandating what the law is what they're advocating for with no dissent the unvaccinated are living proof that vaccine passports are illogical so you have to demonize that living proof because you need the checkpoint in place the vaccine passport not for stopping the virus but I don't think that the people that are advocating for this are in favor of or even aware of a digital no currency system well no they're not they're not not the everyday person no but that's what demonization you see it serves to shut down rational de right but but here's my question is this a conspiracy or is this a natural artifact of human behavior neither neither it's a revolution how so in the wrong direction and there needs to be a council Revolution how how so is it how is it a revolution this is a power grab um so but is it always a p but how is it a power grab if the people that are involved like say the the health experts the people that are doctors and medical experts that are advocating for people to be vaccinated and boosted and for people to uh and may many who even are encouraging mandates for employees yeah there's a lot of people that have no dog in the fight when it comes to uh a central digital currency they don't even know about this yeah so what makes them want all these things in your eyes psychological operation military grade by who I'll read it for you okay is this the one from Canada no this is now UK example okay so we have a unit called sage which is a scientific Advisory Group that was a formerly that's the committee that was advising government on pandemic policy yeah it's called sage one of the most prominent members on that was uh uh Professor Susan mitchi yeah uh Professor Susan Mitchie for 40 years has been a member of the Communist Party first point and she's one of the most prominent members uh on the scientific Advisory Group in the UK that formulated
that's the formal committee that formulated our pandemic response this is from The Daily Mail on the 10th of June 2021 in an article by James Gant headlined social distancing and face mask should stay forever says communist Sage Committee Member Professor Susan Mitchie now keep that point in mind social distancing and face masks should stay forever yeah keep that point in mind and I'm going to make another point real quote Yeah that's not clickbait directly from the yeah that's directly from her it gets worse Joe right here's an article here it is forever in all caps says communist Sage Committee Member Professor Susan Mitchie she said we never used to pick up dog poo in the park but learn to over time now let's move to the next cuz I'm going to build this case up for you cuz I just I know I said something psycholog military grade psychological operation I'm going to I I promise you I'll publish that statement step by step like this by showing you headlines every step of the way yeah okay the telegraph reported on 14th of May 2021 in an article headlined use of fear to control behavior in covid crisis was totalitarian admit scientists these are people that left that group sage and they came out and spoke like whistleblowers and they said we were using fear as government policy to psychologically manipulate the public right we call it scops psychological operations to try and elicit that fear response so in answer to your question as to why were people Towing the line they weren't involved in the power grab it's because they are victims and targets of state sponsored psychological operations from the scientific committees that should have been looking after us now that article in the in the telegraph I said to you it's there for you everyone say that's a national newspaper in the UK it's not even a fringe it's a national broad sheet printed newspaper the Prime Minister used to write for that newspaper yeah the telegraph and as I say that was the headline use of fear to control behavior in covid crisis was totalitarian admit scientist members of the scientific pandemic influenza group on Behavior Express regret about unethical methods yeah now but didn't they use that but they use that fear to try to get people
to comply with what they thought was a good thing the vaccination well but they're realizing now after the dust is settled that they have regret they be Express regret about unethical methods but they're publicly expressing this regret because they've come to this recognition so that doesn't seem like a conspiracy to me more than it feels like people under pressure so this is not me saying it's a conspiracy this is me saying why did every ordinary Everyday People comply because of the fear that was deliberately stoked yeah yes um now we're going to carry on so we got a headline here um on the 13th of January 2022 this is this month yeah again in the Daily Mail ministers have used propagandistic tactics to scare public into complying with covid rules founder of number 10's nud unit claims now the nud unit is a colloquial term for the behavioral psychology unit in government it's called spy B the scientific pandemic influenza uh Behavior group right the founder of that unit has come out now and has said he regrets and he's written a column for a different platform called unheard and this is the news piece on his column so he's written a whole column expressing this regret and he says he expressed regrets that they used these manipulative methods to encourage fear but it gets better why do they use the word military grade yeah so this so far establishes that because intent is not relevant for me at this point right all I'm describing to you is what happened why were people scared okay yeah you know you could be well- intentioned in doing this but the road to hell is paved with good intentions yes right my point isn't about intentions uh or conspiracy this is just what happened and people need to know that they were manipulated whether for good or bad intention that they were manipulated in a way that the people that did it are now expressing regret because they know that this is coming out so they're trying to get ahead of the curve and admit that they did it now here's here's another interesting one right so there's an MP in the in the parliament in the British Parliament his name is Tobias Elward he's a conservative MP now on his uh own Twitter page he announces I'll just read it for you no point Googling this I'll just read it for you on his own he's got
a Twitter page he announces delighted to be promoted to Lieutenant Colonel as a reverse reservist in the 77 Brigade an honor to continue serving Her Majesty's armed forces the most professional in the world right what's the 77 Brigade well you go to their website and they tell you what they are groups within 77 Brigade and I'll just read a bit here for you this is on their own on their own website yeah digital operations group provider specialist capability to deliver influence activity and products across a broad range of communications channels webops team the webops team collects information and understands audience sentiment in the virtual domain right with the extent ENT that's open source intelligence uh policy framework they may engage with audiences in order to influence perceptions to support operational outcomes now the question is here you got a British MP is involved in a military Sops unit called the 77th now I'm going to tell you something about Twitter because we mentioned Twitter yeah this is an article in the Middle East eye I'll read a direct quote for you the date is as it pulls up open here here 30th of September 2019 Middle East I the articles by Ian Cobain and it's headlined Twitter executive for Middle East is British Army scops soldier part-time officer has worked on behavioral change projects in the regon in the region Gordon McMillan who joined Twitter the social media company's UK office six years ago has for several years also served with a 77th Brigade a unit formed in 2015 to develop non-lethal ways of Waging War now I've just read for you the 77th is engaged in information operations look at this and a Twitter executive is a member of the 77th a scop soldier and this is why I said to you military grade psychological operations not just any psychological operations this is why people have become so scared they are victims of scops intentions might be good don't you think you I Jamie your listeners had the right to know this was happening to us regardless of the intention yes well this was listed in an article in September of 2019 right I mean we did know about it
at least it was published it was exposed September 201 yeah it's a leak it's not a it's an exposer oh I see it's not the government saying this is what we're doing to you how did it how did they find out about that leaks one thing I like about you majud you come with receipts receipts right so when I say now I'm going to say the statement again and it's going to sound less crazy no military grade psychological operations yes well I see that that is military grade now let me ask you this how do do you think that is achieved do you think that's achieved through the use of things like the IRA like how Russia uses it troll Farms things along those likes that manipulate narratives through paid posers like people that are pretending to be posters but they're really just someone who works for a government organization and they push a very spe like I get very suspicious when I see people with like American flags in their their Twitter handle and they they talk a lot of crazy [ __ ] I'm like that might be a fed you know there's a lot of that online I find a lot of that on Instagram where I'll I'll see someone's page like someone will send me a video hey check out this video and I go to their page like this feels suspiciously not like a person like this feels suspiciously like someone is trying to like get something to rile people up out there their whole page has no uh there's no character to it there's no personality there's no emotional engagement it's like a constant barrage of memes and and videos that are inflammatory and data and like and I look at I go is this guy in Macedonia somewhere you know with in a troll Farm because we know that that's a real thing so it's not just like here's a thing that we're willing to accept very easily we're willing to accept that foreign countries are manipulating us yeah right we're willing to accept that Russia does that that the IRA we've just seen that we're doing it but that's the thing like how much are we doing it and how much do we know about like the Renee desta's work with the IRA when she when she uncovered these hundreds of thousands Sam did a podcast with her and then I did a podcast with her afterwards and just talking to her about the depth of the work that they do to try to get people riled up online and that's exactly what they're doing they're just
entering into these Christian chat groups there was a um an article recently that came out that showed that out of 20 of the top Christian groups on Facebook 19 of them were run by troll Farms 19 of them we showed all these different like your baby daddy ain't [ __ ] that was run by troll Farms all these like really wild inflammatory u meme Pages run by troll farms and their purpose is just to R people up we're accepting those like wow we're being attacked but what are we doing we meeing what is what are the the intelligence agencies within this country that have a vested interest in pushing a narrative what are they doing in this country yeah what are they doing on social media and around the world while we're getting blocked and banned left and right for all kinds of arbitrary things like Unity 2020 which was Brett Weinstein's organization that was trying to put together a very respectable member of the right and a very respectable member of the left and see if they can come up with an alternative party they were banned from Twitter for that yeah now Twitter's one Arena yeah yes one Battleground uh a while back in this conversation you said something which I appreciate you saying and it's accurate um is that having been through all of this I was was able to identify some of these early warning signs I'm trained in ideological Warfare basically I have been as an islamist revolutionary and it's why the Egyptian government put me in jail I know all these signs and I know how it works I know how you deconstruct a country for the purposes of destroying it from within now whether it's Twitter and our use of social media platforms but it doesn't stop there it includes uh subversion through infiltration of State bodies by operatives who are not there to serve people but who are there to deliver the aims of your organization and what are the aims of the organization so let me play something for you by CLA Schwab yeah oh this is in Harvard's John F Kennedy School of government he is speaking in 2017 I feel like we should have Darth Vader music playing when that guy talk please do it when I play have it seriously because can you get Darth Vader music hold that please we've going to
have the proper music for this amazing introduction of xiin ping are you ready yeah tell me when give me some just a music okay but you want to hear the audio as well and I have to say um when I mention our names like Mrs Merkel um even Vladimir Putin and so on they all have been young global leaders of the world economic Forum but um what we are very proud of now as a Young Generation like like prime minister trudo um president of bra of Argentina and so on said we penetrates the cabinets so yesterday I was on a re at a reception for Prime ministero and I know that half of this cabinet or even more half of uh half of this cabinet are for our actually young global leaders of the world econ for and that's true in Argentina too wow yeah sorry that's true in Argentina as well it's through in Argentina and uh it's through in France now I mean with the president with a young Global leader but what is important for me so what you got there is Emperor Palpatine speaking about how in the first in the preludes the first three Star Wars how that he's going to use democracy to put his people in place right he explicitly said in that quote you just heard what we are very proud of is that we penetrate the global cab of countries with our world economic Forum young global leaders and then gave examples like Trudeau like macron and it's not just him saying this this is Tony Blair saying exactly the same thing our teams are now embedded in governments around the world helping them to keep their people safe during this pandemic how to keep people as safe as possible protect them as much as possible but not simply in respect of co9 itself but in respect also of the Collateral Damage Done by the disease so we've been really focusing on three areas the first is around Exit strategies um particularly in the UK and other developed countries where we've published papers showing how we might exit and ease the lockdown secondly of course because of all the work we do in Africa with many different governments there our teams have stayed in place they're on the ground they're working with the president prime minister's teams in combating the crisis and there
what we're focused on is trying to give them realistic ways of containing covid-19 without doing enormous damage to economies that depend often on informal working and where the food supply chains are a critical part of keeping people alive and then thirdly we're working on the global coordination picture because one of the things that has been shocking as I've said right from the very beginning is the absence of global coordination I think out of this so that one doesn't bother the direct quote though on his you'll see it our teams are now embedded in governments around the world that's actually what they wrote and the video is 2 minutes I didn't play all of it that's what he says but what he's saying there sounds reasonable figuring out on strategic ways to end the lockdown easily that make sense not the end of lockdown no no no didn't he say that keep in mind Tony Blair is the one who's been advocating for vaccine passports digital identification through covid and all of these measures but didn't they say that about ending the lockdowns and keeping businesses once those measures are in place right so he's even in the UK his stance has been yeah we're going to get out of all it but you have to have digital ID and you have to have so during the this is going to introduce the the social credit score system right so the what all of that came from your question which is regardless of intention how do people how do people do that infiltration from within it's not just Twitter so back to the psychological operations it's also embedding people in government who are subscribed to this agenda yeah and the agenda of Cl Schwab and the world economic forum is the same as the agenda of Tony Blair in this regard they call it on their own website they call it the great reset that's what they say themselves yeah that's a bizarre thing to do to openly why do you think they openly discuss it that way and openly because the great reset has always been this gigantic conspiracy theory among the online folks like this is all part of the Great reset well when he wrote a [ __ ] book called The Great reset you're like hey man shouldn't you be hiding this and and and in 2017 at Harvard he's saying you know we're going to basically all of these world leaders
will penetrate their cabinets with our young global leaders he's open of this he's open Blair's open during the Iraq War Blair tried to bring in ID cards in Britain he failed now he's back and he's trying to bring in digital ID during covid right so they're open about it so this is going to be this never ending process to slowly move the goalposts towards more and more authoritarianism checkpoint Society it's all there they they told us this we people have have to realize this right this is important yeah when you were um when you were on your radio show what kind of pushback did you can you talk about that no so I can when it comes to those who disagreed with me in public just not the management legal side contract side but there were other broadcasters that basically some called me um uh deranged is one direct quote and another because obviously this is a whole radio group so there's other presenters not just my show yeah uh when I said I when I said publicly on my feed I will not not get a booster and I said I'm a conscientious objector to getting a booster because of mandates and I I refuse to participate in a system that removes choice I was called deranged for saying I didn't want to get a booster soon afterwards again it all came out and they realized that the boosters weren't doing much when it comes to uh the spread and transmission of covid so they publicly came out and attacked me for some of the things I've said here in fact I've gone uh nothing I've said here I haven't already said by the way so I've been called an extremist for saying this for having this discussion that I'm having with you I've been radicalized somehow apparently this means that I haven't really left the group that I used to belong to oh Jesus yeah and on top of that I um I need mental help I've got mental health problems I'm being gaslit in that way that I'm the one who's lost sense of reality so when you move the goalposts in that way to such an extent that that the that the psychology iCal operation purpose is to Gaslight the public as happened under communism the person who speaks up is the person that has psych needs psychological help as opposed to of course that is gaslighting by definition yeah that's where we are but
as you've seen nothing I said comes without receips no and you know when we were easing into this conversation I had a I had a feeling it was going to go this way but I was like I was hoping I was going to find some holes yeah I was hoping like well maybe he's exaggerating or maybe I don't I don't see these holes so so again remember this right for me it's not about intention you can have the best of intentions and do evil that is what Hannah arent meant I think that's a very good point that's a very good point because that erases the stigma that it's attached to these conspiracy theories that there's this Grand cabal of evil people that are trying to control the world do you think that there is a sense or um that they have an incentive to try to impart more control because we're under direct competition with China and they have essentially total control over their the way the Chinese government has control of their corporations and the corporations act for the interest of the Chinese party they they act within the best interest they don't do any they're not independent like you know say Harley-Davidson or something like that it does whatever the [ __ ] they want when they make motorcycles what are you doing in China if you especially if you're involved in a technology company you work with the government I'll go one further okay please there's something called Elite capture which is a term that I use I believe our Elite have come under the undue influence of Chinese intelligence agencies unfortunately our Elite like who's our Elite our political Elite our political Elite how well okay so if you look up um BBC Chinese spy Parliament uh MI5 have just last uh month in fact this month I think it was warned about this I've been saying it since my Hunger Strike which we haven't spoken about but I went on hunger strikes uh at the beginning of the pandemic because of the wear genocide in China um I did a 5-day hunger strike to try and draw attention to the plight of the wiar Muslim Community who are facing genocide in China because nobody was speaking about it in the media at the time it wasn't getting the attention it deserved and I was a mainstream broadcaster who didn't even turn up to work because I was on Hunger Strike
sitting outside the Chinese Embassy and protest the purpose was to get 100,000 signatures on a petition on UK Parliament website that would force a debate in the UK Parliament on the genocide in China we got the 100,000 signatures within 4 days and there was a debate and the UK Parliament unanimously voted in a symbolic vote that there was a genocide in China and then other countries started cascading after that Canada did the same the Netherlands did the same uh blinkin here is when he was sworn in uh after my Hunger Strike was asked in his swearing in ceremon he said yes I believe there's a genocide in China and then America followed suit as well back in those days when I did that hunger strike it wasn't common apart from trump it wasn't common for somebody from my background to speak about China it was seen as a trumpian thing to do right and people often forget how that was in those days and um I mentioned back then that the reason I think this genocide was being uh not getting the attention it deserved in the Press was because our Elite had come under the undue influence of Chinese State CCP right Communist party not the Chinese people people but the states influence operations in the west and they had somehow captured our Elite to head in a direction that serves the interest of China now what's come out since then it's it's now two years later uh again like with everything else I've spoken about it's now in the Press so there's an article in the BBC MI5 warning over Chinese agent in Parliament that's from the 13th of January this month now that this lady here she's been operating uh with senior Parliament Arians as an active spy of the Chinese Communist party to the point where our security services the internal Branch MI5 had issued a rare warning as it says there at the top right and she's not the only one you want to read it for people that are just listening MI5 has issued a rare warning that an alleged Chinese agent has infiltrated Parliament to interfere in UK politics an alert from the security service said Christine chingu I hope I've pronounced that correctly established links for the Chinese Communist Party CCP with current and aspiring MPS she then gave donations to politicians with funding coming from foreign Nationals in China and Hong Kong
uh specifically go down we go down to the next few paragraphs there one of the MPS funded by Miss Lee was Labour's Barry Gardner right so this is our opposition party who received over 420,000 that's half a million dollars yeah from her in five years but he said he's always made the security services aware of the donations liberal Democrat leader sir Ed Davy also received a £5,000 donation so a lot less those two Parties By the way were very much in favor of all of the covid mandates and we know that the idea of lockdowns began in China we know that the virus leaked from Wuhan we know that China has an interest in making sure that the world follows its ideology a bit like in the Cold War where the Soviet Union wanted us to be communist but can you really buy the influence of these politicians for $100,000 a year to the point where they're willing to instigate these sort of covid lockdowns what you do is you don't they don't think they're being bought they think they're receiving money from a donor and they're serving their donor's interests like a Lobby that's how the lobby works it's why so they have discussions with them and about an agenda yeah and it's like you know uh so when I first started speaking about the weard genocide it was seen as racist against Chinese to speak about the Communist influence of China in the west right so you don't need to say don't you don't need to say to somebody here's some money do the bidding of the CCP you need to say I'm I'm funding you as a British Chinese citizen when actually they're working for the CCP I'm worried about increasing anti-chinese racism again a legitimate concern to have I'm going to provide money to your party and let's start trying to divert conversation away from criticizing Chinese actions because it will lead to anti-chinese racism unless instead speak about the need for Huawei the contract with Huawei the 5G networks so it's why we had this problem where it was so difficult to cancel those Huawei contracts but we ended up canceling them in the end after we agreed to have them because all of got exposed after that hunger stri I'm not saying I'm the reason it got exposed I'm saying it was in chronological order just to reassure people that what I say isn't just something that I've just plucked out of
my head it's actually then it gets reported in the Press it's happening so the concern around uh China's influence in terms of not only our Tech Huawei and others and the ability to enter our information through the back door through the Huawei 5G networks which have since been canceled since Trump and in the UK we followed America and canceled those pending contracts it doesn't just apply to Tech it doesn't just apply to um Pro lockdown messaging in Parliament but you look to um we've got a nuclear reactor in the UK called Hinkley Point C it's being built with Chinese funding now I'm asking you got a country it's engaging their genocide against a community for their beliefs it doesn't tolerate diversity and you're letting that Nation controlled by the CCP work on our sensitive nuclear programs now I wouldn't do that with the Soviet Union and what I don't understand moving this conversation slightly to foreign policy is why are we why are we not realizing that we've got this kind of consensus developing with a Biden Administration that Putin and Russia are a threat when actually you got a bigger problem here with the CCP far more powerful than Russia far more organized have far more centralized control and are far wealthier and their military is far stronger and we got a real elephant in the room and that is the increasing power of the CCP ruled China and the influence isn't just military but it's also soft power so when the lockdowns first began I signed a joint letter with other signatories um and one of the signatories was General sporing here at US general and it was it's on the it's online still and we directly alleged that influence Chinese influence operations have been responsible for a lot of this idea that lockdowns were our solution it was the first nation that implemented lockdowns and then Italy and Europe followed after China and then the rest of Europe followed after that and Michael Sanger who's one of the signatories to that letter has written an extensive book on this tracing step by step the way I've gone through receipts with you here he's gone through step by step these influence operations where the CCP have been encouraging a Draconian response to covid and all of this technocracy that is eventually going to arise in the form of Checkpoint
Charlie society and Central Banking digital currencies they've been encouraging other nations to implement these their model and how do they get away with that like how how do these other other nations comply they comply because of influence influence operations funding uh intelligence operations as you see because of that they're willing to impart laws that they would not normally do who the the governments that they are being influenced the governments like whe whether it's Great Britain whether it's United States the these governments are being influenced in your mind with the help of the agenda coming from uh other non-state actors such as the world economic forum and their teams penetrating cabinets across the world as CLA schab said that there are some supranational interests here that exist above the nation state working as I said to it's a power grab working to define the future in a certain direction and that is to make sure that decentralization doesn't happen the mother of centralization is the CCP so we're at a Crossroads historically we can either move towards decentralization and people power which means local governments decentralized power community and uh a separation of powers or we move in the CCP Direction and there's a term for this in political science it's called the faid Trap how does a rising power overtake an existing power Rising power China existing power America how does a rising power overtake an existing power without War the term the term thusi is trap is a term to describe that historically whenever we've been in this moment War has happened because nobody sits by quietly and allows for for that Rising power to take them over so we're in that moment now and our our challenge is how do we navigate this the cidis Trap moment with the rise of China without us going to war with China but also saave off their influence but that's the moment I believe we are in in history and I'll just say with for I don't know how long we have by the way I'm talking a lot we basically just hit the three-hour Mark cool I mean I don't know how long you're comfortable with talking but um I'm happy to stop whenever you want me to um the situation now in
Ukraine I believe it's a Folly Russia and Putin of course like you know all governments they have their own interests their own agendas yeah but what we really should be looking at isn't uh throwing Russia further into the bosom of China which is what we're doing at the moment you got a Russia China alliance against us surely if we're going to be clever we need to be able to use diplomacy with Putin and separate Russia from China because the bigger danger is China not Russia Russia isn't our friend but the bigger danger is China the way we're behaving at the moment whether it's with Ukraine or in Syria is we're pushing that Alliance closer you've got Iran Russia China and they've got cooperation with Biden's screw up in Afghanistan and not the fact we withdrew I've never been for the war as we've discussed but the way he withdrew the Taliban now have more Blackhawk helicopters than the entire British Army because of Biden right the Bagram Airbase that was the American base in Afghanistan The Daily Mail reported and you can look it up if you want to but I'll just tell you the Daily Mail reported that Chinese military have now landed at Bagram so you've got this axis developing Russia China Iran and Afghanistan ruled by the Taliban if we're going to be clever we've got to realize this Rising block uh it's not in our interest uh for them to stay United in that way we should be attempting diplomacy with Russia and focusing on China as a rising concern because unlike Russia not only China have a stronger economy and a stronger military those things I can handle the problem I've got is China is stronger ideologically it has a alternative consensus about that crossroads we're at China has a centralized system and it has soft power to advocate for that centralized system it believes in itself and its technocracy and its social credit system in other words it's like the Soviet Union it has the ability to sell itself because it's cohesive Russia doesn't have that centralized social credit system it doesn't have that you know thing that the Chinese have with that kind of strong centralized power with an ideology behind it Russia is a traditional country not an ideological country at least since the collapse of the Soviet Union what we should be
worried about is the ideological country because ideologies pedal soft power and they influence Minds with their agenda and they influence narratives and what we've missed because we aren't in the west attuned to ideological Warfare we've missed that bit we've missed the fact that the CCP has been influencing through its narratives it's been influencing the world in this hybrid War way with its disinformation campaigns a lot of these fake accounts on Twitter by the way Twitter themselves have convinced that a lot of them were run by the CCP and and so this disinformation is being pedal from that side if we could divide Russia from China we stand a stronger chance in that facities trap moment of the rise of China how to how to navigate around that I feel like you and I could have another 15 of these three-hour conversations so we got to do this again um can I quickly tell you why I'm doing next please yeah so having uh let's how do I put this diplomatic having had my services no longer required perfect for my mainstream you should have a podcast and I know I've said that to a billion people and I'm going to say it to you because I think you more than anybody are qualified for this well I will I'll be on so that's what I wanted to tell you so um there's three things I'm going to do um having my servic is no longer being required on that on that talk show so um I'm working with Odyssey which is a on online video platform like YouTube yes uh but it's decentralized so the videos sit on a blockchain so that YouTube yesterday took down Dan bongino show yeah and they took they took it down took it down suspended and they took down trigonometry well okay when they they take these down they taken them down for a specific period of time or forever I don't know but that's why I decided I know the trigonometry thing I heard Jordan Peterson told me about that last night I was shocked so I thought I'm not going to go down that route in the first place there we are permanently BN permanently banned D what did he say I mean it came out of nowhere right so I don't imagine he said anything let's have a look YouTube on Wednesday permanently banned conservative commentator Dan bongino from the platform saying he attempted to evade a
previous suspension I mean you know how this works I me know so when so he violated their Rules by trying to evade a previous suspension I think it says yeah the fox host uploaded a video to his main Channel while his secondary Channel which primarily hosted short clips from his Digital radio show was actively suspended for violating YouTube's covid-19 misinformation policy when a channel receives a strike it is against our terms of services to post content or use another channel to circumvent the suspension okay well that meanwhile meanwhile newspapers can say antivaxer dies while he's vaccinated and there's no repercussions for that right right anyway so the point is whether it's him whether it's trigonometry they've been taken down so I didn't want to go down that route so I've I've uh been speaking to Odyssey as a Julian is their CEO and he's been very kind and I'm going to put my show on this other platform called Odyssey which is decentralized um isn't Brett's show on that as well I think so yeah and it's called radical with Majid noas Rumble which is another uh platform that's more open so I spoke to those guys too but I think with me with Odyssey C it's built on the blockchain tech yes and Rumble I I don't think it's its videos are decentralized in that way so even if the Odyssey website's removed the library blockchain check that those videos sit on stay on the blockchain and I will then own my own content so that's my idea I think I want to live by example if I if I'm worried about going either in a centralized Direction with the planet or a decentralized Direction I want to try and move move my own media content in the decentralized way walk to walk and the other thing I've got is that substack uh which I set up as soon as I lost my my gig um and I do sort of written content on there and finally I'll be doing some uh collaboration with geta as an alternative to Twitter just to try and have that diversity on the Twitter space I'll be doing some videos and live streaming and tweet content on on gter as well but that's those three Odyssey substack and geta will be where people will be able to find me the content is called radical whether it's on Odyssey radical with Majid noas on subst it's called The Radical dispatch and my
name on Ghetto you can find me on there as well Majid I appreciate you um this was everything I wanted and more I'm so glad we did it and we will do it again my pleasure thank you very very much all right you heard it folks bye everybody [Music] [Music] [Applause] n